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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 14, 2009 - 06:46pm PT
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I got off route on a trad climb. I got in way over my head and took a 70 ft fall. Luckily I was OK. However, I dont know if I should retire my rope or not. The sheath appears fine. The rope was brand new prior to this climb. The rope is a beal joker 9.1 mm single rope. It is supposed to hold 5 uiaa falls. Does anybody have any suggestions?
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hobo
climber
PDX
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May 14, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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Cool
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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May 14, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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What was the fall factor?
Fall Factor = (Distance of Fall)/(Rope Out)
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
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how do i determine what the fall factor is?
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
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the distance of the fall was 70 feet. I was probably no more than 25 ft above my protection.
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
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the rest was probably rope strech and slack.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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May 14, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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" the distance of the fall was 70 feet. I was probably no more than 25 ft above my protection."
You were 25 feet above your pro and fell 70 feet? Who was your belayer?
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
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well there was a little bit of fuz on the sheath but nothing unusual and there were no flat spots.
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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May 14, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
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Yes, you should definitely retire the rope as such a long fall can result in undetectable core damage. Your life is worth more than $200 right?
For proper disposal and to ensure that no one ever uses the rope please ship to
SlabbyD Climbing Gear Disposal Corp
666 Booty Lane
Bellingham, WA 98225
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hobo
climber
PDX
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May 14, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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What was the length of rope out?? Meaning what was the total distance from you to your belayer measured along the rope when you fell? Falling 70 ft when your 25 ft out doesn't seem to ridiculous, good belayer.
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 06:59pm PT
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i dont think the belay was bad. I have stretched my rope almost 20 ft on top rope.
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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probably about 120 feet
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 14, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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25 feet out and total travel of 70 feet seems reasonable.
those beal ropes can have some serious elongation. Factor in the belay probably got pulled up a bit and that there was at least a little play/slack in the rope.
Just climb on the other end and don't worry :-)
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
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what is IMHO?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 14, 2009 - 07:06pm PT
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Fall factor was about .6
I'm not sure I'd retire it if it's brand new. And I could easily afford a new rope.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 14, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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IMO = In My Opinion
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion
Edit: Dang...Knott beat me to it...
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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nature,
how do you come up with .6 fall factor?
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 14, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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From post #3 above:
Fall Factor = (Distance of Fall)/(Rope Out)
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 14, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
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if, in the deepest recesses of your reptile brain, you trust it to hold a fall -- keep using it.
if not, retire it.
it's all about confidence in your gear.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 14, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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yeah... #3 post
70/120 =~ .6
-
Imagine if your belay was your only piece:
15 feet of rope out you'd fall 30 feet.
30/15 = 2 (bad... very bad... you'd retire that rope immediately - or at the very least you'd chop that 30 feet off and turn it into a nice doggie leash).
And Edit: What BVB said. I mean... did the fall totally rock your world or was it all soft and cushy. the rope felt the same thing as your body.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 14, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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Erik
One thing that bothers me is about the fuzz you spoke of.
Is it where the rope would have bent over the caribiner
that held you?
(Nature's on the level, been giving you good beta),
I just worry about that fuzzy spot.
If you doubt it, buy another one. You can get a rope for
less than $200.
If you feel safe on it, climb on it.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 14, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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If it seems okay, and you're not chicken, Run It Out! It's like that episode of Sienfeld with Cosmo and the Saab salesman, see how far you can take it!
If you start dreaming, incessantly, about Mark Twight, and a guy a in a hood who wantsta play chess, turn the job over to someone else, and buy yourself a new rope!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 14, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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Erik do you know the trick where you sort of roll through the rope with a 180 degree bend in the rope? if the core is damage you'll notice because you'll see a noticeable kink.
shoot... this is a difficult concept to relate... way easy to show.
Jaybro: bwaahahaaahaaa... good episode!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 14, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
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" this is a difficult concept to relate... way easy to show"
Spoken like a geologist!
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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the fuz was about 10ft or so from my knot( very minor). and yes i did check for flat spots and kinks by running it through my hand while pinching it with my fingers.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 14, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
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Erik, no offense, but if you don't even know what a fall factor is what are you doing on the sharp end?
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
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Piton Ron,
well its better to ask and get info than remain in the dark about things you should know dont you think? I did not know there were rules as to when you should start trad leading and what exactly you are supposed to know. If you have that list I would love to have a copy of it and I will make sure I know everything on it before I ever lead again.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 14, 2009 - 07:36pm PT
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jesus ron i dunno much about fall factors either. just go with my instincts, works for me.
but then i never asked anyone if they thought my rope was any good either. sort of made that decision for myself.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 14, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
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i think he was climbing.
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SUPERTOPO
climber
SUPERTOPO
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May 14, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
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Erik, that's funny. Way to go for it and take the whip!
Yeah Ron I want a copy to.
SUPERTOPO
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OfBlinkingThings
Boulder climber
Jackosnville, Fl
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May 14, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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If its going to sketch you out then you should toss it.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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May 14, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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Where is this list Ron?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 14, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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I would say that if you don't know that fall FACTOR is at least as important as fall distance then perhaps one had better crack the books (or videos, or take some actual lessons, or at least get knowledgeable friends to show you the ropes) before more leading.
I tell people to follow hundreds of pitches just to learn about placements, but most people are too impatient and cocksure.
I also feel that people shouldn't even FOLLOW climbs unless they know how to counterbalance rappel evacuate a seriously injured leader, but good luck on that one. Most people who consider themselves competent leaders based on hundreds of climbs don't even know how.
Mores the pity.
EDIT
Ha! Judging from the remarks they flunked a mere 2 item list.
Well, you baited. I responded.
SUPERTOPO's laissez faire is what will destroy things for future climbers (bet I know who this persona created just for this is. Whether or not I'm right he is, by definition, a poser).
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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buying a new rope is not really too much of an issue for me. I just really would like to understand what a uiaa fall is. When I read about how they test ropes and what they consider a uiaa fall I really did not understand it. Also how does fall factor come into play in determining how many falls a rope can take?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 14, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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has anyone actually ever heard of a rope BREAKING? i ain't. cutting yes, snapping no.
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SUPERTOPO
climber
SUPERTOPO
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May 14, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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I feel that...
People can and should climb however they want. Including climbing el cap stoned without knowing what a fall factor is (don't most?). Or how to use an ATC. Or rappelling el cap, whatever floats your boat.
I wonder if harding knew what a fall factor was... seriously
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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At least I know what fall factor is now.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 14, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
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It is important to know about technical rope issues.... Why, I met this guy once; he had lines fixed up to the shield, all tied together to one anchor, he jugged maybe 300' before he left the ground...
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
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piton ron,
If people dont know how to lead after leading 100s of climbs then what does it take to know how to lead?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 14, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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LOL Jay.
I can just see him jugging out the slack without clipping to the ascenders only to slip and have the rope slingshot his rig onto a ledge 200' up.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 14, 2009 - 08:06pm PT
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Erik,
one important item is common sense.
If only it wasn't an oxymoron.
If you are looking for a formula, look elsewhere.
There are natural leaders, and there are people who never should.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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May 14, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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Did someone page me? Hello...
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SUPERTOPO
climber
SUPERTOPO
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May 14, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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Piton Ron I assume your a natural leader?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 14, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
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Hardly.
I had to learn to crawl before I could walk (and followed for 6 years before attempting to lead).
But I have been climbing for 41 years and became AMGA certified in the first group 19 years ago.
You?
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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May 14, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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Ron, can't we all just get along?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 14, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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Apparently not, but sock puppets don't carry much clout on the taco even if they name themselves for it.
Poseur.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 14, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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Ron! You have been trolled by a nameless, faceless and dickless detractor who created this [fake] user name for the sole purpose of replying to this post. His only three posts are on this thread.
Have a beer, dude. Chill... Not worth the effort. Save it for someone real.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 14, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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Already knew that Pete.
Sock puppets emit fart gas.
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WBraun
climber
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May 14, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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Tune in on "The Fall Factor" on Fox News with your host Piton Ron ......
Yo ho man .....
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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May 14, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
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My $0.02...
Good for you for asking Erik.
But 'ol Piton there does have some good points too...
just don't take 'em personally.
enough from me
Cheers,
DD
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 14, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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A dickless detractor is not a good thing to have. The next thing you know the ones with the dicks will start detracting and you will have to quit the sport.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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May 14, 2009 - 09:47pm PT
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good thing he had a new rope
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Yvergenhauf
Gym climber
UT
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May 14, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
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You should buy a new rope. The economy needs all the help it can get. It couldn't hurt to get a new rack, harness & shoes while you're at it. Your local climbing shop is too big to fail.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 14, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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Good rope on top, bad rope on bottom of photo nkgphoto.com(C)2009
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 14, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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double thumbs up on that above photo.
my guess is 4 out of 5 people that lead don't know what a factor 2 fall is. but my guess also is 99 people out of a 100 know that falling on your belayer 15 feet above them will net not so dandy results.
there's a thing called intuition.... the club doesn't really care if math freaks apply or knott.
I'm just sayin'....
(though for what it's worth I geeked out hard on figuring out things like fall factors, etc... but that was 20+ years ago and I do think we learned things a bit differently than folks do now)
Hmmm.. I wonder when Royal and Warren learned fall factors....
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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May 14, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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Royal and Warren learned about 'em on that yellow goldline
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 14, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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^ ^ ^
My guess is that most newbs who don't know what FF is wouldn't think that falling 5 feet above a belayer (at a hanging belay) is a very, very serious things as compared to falling 5 feet above a bomber piece high on a pitch. I don't know that, just a guess.
To the OP--you should post any similar questions on rockclimbing.com--this site is only good for climbing history and, mostly, political commentary. (On rc.com you will get a mix of stupid responses (attempt to be funny), stupid responses (not attempt to be funny, just stupid) and decent responses--you will need to be able to sort them out.)
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 14, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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a 9.2mm, a 70 ft, get a new rope you moron.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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May 14, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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Relatively low fall factor. If your rope is not damaged visibly or by feel, I would lead on it.
Furthermore: who among you takes repeated short, hard falls on your rope @ the gym or sport crag?
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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May 14, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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in fact, get a nice 60m 10.2
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 15, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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That is a truly funny image, Ron!
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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May 15, 2009 - 12:36am PT
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Retire it.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 15, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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Wasn't that goldline, gold?
I had a white goldline, I called in a whiteline.
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captaincrimp
climber
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May 16, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
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I was Erik's belay when he took the fall.
erik tumbled a couple times during the fall and i was wondering if that comes into play when determining fall factor.
i did not feel a significant amount of force when the rope finnaly caught. I was not pulled above my anchor.
also, the fall occured at the beginning of a very long climb, before the crux, and we continued to climb on the rope.
i did a brief visual inspection before proceeding and did not see anything out of the ordinary that would warrant bailing (just minor sheath damage near erik's end, no major kinks or core exposure)
I would be comfortable climbing on this rope again, but i would like to thoroughly inspect it first, you never know
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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May 16, 2009 - 06:01pm PT
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Nice form Ron. You really are a pleasure.
Seems unnecessary to rant and attack on a thread with a clear question.... Using the forum to boost your own ego could be judged as a negative character quality.
Cheers,
Jay Renneberg
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fletch lives
Social climber
south lake tahoe
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May 16, 2009 - 06:11pm PT
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Don't be a pussy. If your rope is new and the belay was dynamic(as it sounds), then it's probably fine.
fletch f. fletch
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 16, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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1st question . was it really 70ft or was that climbers math?
When applying climbers math to any distances alluded to in relation to runouts and falls and pitch lengths one must factor in many things such as substance abuse and the re telling of the story as well as the passage of time.
"There I was 80ft out from my last piece which was a #2 BD micro wire behind a rotten expanding choss flake, i was shaking like a dog crapping razorblades and down to my last bud light".
Translation; Subject is holding 24oz Poligamy Ale in one hand, a fatty in other, waving hands wildly as he mimes the moves, It is currently midnight and the campfire is roaring and ocasionaly explodeing with tossed butane lighters. Climber was probobly 30ft over a solid #4 stopper.
On the honest and reliable end of the scale the math is still fuzzy and the real distances are more likly 50% to 75% of the claimed distance. So the guy went 40ft instead of 70. Still should just get a new rope.
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clustiere
Trad climber
berkeley ca
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May 16, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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Man I forget everything if i don't write it down!! Thant is wht I have a climbing log. Ha ha run out on a #2 stopper placed in a horizontal crack - i do recall that.
I bet your rope is fine.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 16, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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GhoulweJ,
you might be onto something there Jay.
Its always nice to be psychoanalyzed by somebody so well filled in on the background, like how many people who were a bit short on the requisite skills died on routes that I established.
But that couldn't be a real concern. It must be because I feel so superior saying that I was a mediocre climber for years while I added skills to my palette.
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captaincrimp
climber
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May 16, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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yo tradmanclimbs, no telling if it was exactly 70 feet but it was pretty damn close to it. I was taking some video right before he fell (no whipper footage, turned it off when he climbed out of view) and it is easy to determine approx length of fall.
he was pretty far up and nearly fell back to the belay, rope caught him just before slamming into a ledge above me while screaming "f*#k, f*#k, f*#k, f*#k". crazy sh#t to watch.
oh yeah, i was definately not on drugs.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 16, 2009 - 08:27pm PT
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I see nothing above that gives the remotest indication that the rope should be retired.
Fall factor is a HUGE issue in how much a rope is stressed. If there is plenty of rope out to absorb the force of the fall, then it's no sweat on the rope (even if it scares the crap out of you)
Caldwell is up on EL Cap taken fall after fall like that! Sport Climbers put more stress on their ropes day after day.
Taking some high fall factor falls on your rope might prompt you to retire it cause it might be less stretchy and dynamic after that.
But it's also true, ropes breaking is nearly unheard of. Be careful of sharp edges, ropes cut
Peace
Karl
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 16, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
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"he was pretty far up and nearly fell back to the belay, rope caught him just before slamming into a ledge above me while screaming "f*#k, f*#k, f*#k, f*#k". crazy sh#t to watch."
-------------------
This sounds awfully close to a factor .5 fall.
Much of the discussion mischaracterizes the issues: it is NOT whether the rope has been weakened sufficiently, such that it would break in attempting to hold a fall. It will not.
The issue has to do with the whole dynamic quality of ropes: they stretch when you fall on them. However, as you have falls occur, you begin to stretch out the rope, and it essentially becomes converted into a STATIC rope. There is so much strength built into ropes, that when fully stretched out, it will still function fine as a static line for top-roping or a rap. And it will APPEAR NORMAL. You cannot detect this damage through inspection! If you take a significant lead fall on that rope, it can severely injure you!
Since only about half of the rope was involved in this, you could probably use the other side for the sharp end, and be safe......however, you may not have preserved the orientation, so you don't know. :(
I think I'd retire the rope to top-rope duty.
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Rankin
climber
Bishop, CA
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May 16, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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Inspect the rope carefully. If it seems fine, climb on it. Big falls don't have to be hard falls. With 120 feet of rope out, 70 feet is not a catastrophic amount of force. Where are the taco physicists anyways? I'd love to see this thread go nerdy, but hey, its the internet, so it'll probably be mostly slander and boring insults.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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May 16, 2009 - 09:20pm PT
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Well, I finally know exactly how to calculate fall factor.
I knew about it, and knew that the more rope that was out, yadda, yadda, yadda.
The mention about the rope stretching permanently to the point it will injure you in a fall though, I never put that one together.
I did retire a rope a few years ago that had never held a leader fall, mostly used for top rope. For about 10 years!
Man, when I inspected it that spring after winter storage, I about wet myself when I realized just how shot it was.
I noticed it was REALLY stiff on one end for many feet, and that the core felt flat. Yikes, I cut it up and it made some great reins. Gave half to horse trainer friend who wanted to pay me for it!
I did snap a climbing rope once. It was about 30 years old and being used as a tow rope to yank someone out of a snowbank. Sucker snapped right in half and almost caused an accident!
(Go ahead locker)
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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May 16, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
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sorry, retire. if there is ever a question then the rope is no longer a life line.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 17, 2009 - 08:02am PT
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captain crimper. never insinuating that you were intoxicated climbing. Most of the really creative Climbers Math comes from intoxicated POSTING ;) I have been painting houses latly and let me tell you a 32ft extension ladder which is really only 28ft extended is a long TALL SOB!!! but I Know foe a fact that its really only 28ft. Now if I was sking and hucked a cliff that tall I gaurentee you that climbers math would make that cliff at least 60ft ;) falling and runout generaly get that kind of reportage. A buddy of mine (also house painter) who now lives in utah carried a marked 20ft piece of cord up to the ski area to prove to is buddys how full of sh#t they wrer. Most of those 50ft and 70ft hucks were actually 20ft hucks.
Look at a lot of older guide books and the pitch lengths are allmost allways grosly exagerated. We know this now because we combine the 2 140ft pitches with one 198ft rope ;) Those old guys liked to drink a lot arround the campfire when they reported their new routs ;)
There are times when we actually do know exactly ho much rope is out due to the markings on the modern ropes but in general climbers tend to estimate on the long side... Who wants to hear about your 10ft runout when it felt like 20ft out from that mank gear anyways;)
So the question is, was that Climbers math or real math? ;)
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perswig
climber
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May 17, 2009 - 08:29am PT
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'I was Erik's belay when he took the fall.'
'I was taking some video right before he fell (...)'
(Full disclosure: while I'm guilty of being camera-happy, I tend to do it belaying a second, off the anchor, with an ATC-Guide or Reverso.)
Dale
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
dangling off a wind turbine in a town near you
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May 17, 2009 - 10:02am PT
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What could possibly go wrong?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 17, 2009 - 11:07am PT
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Yeah, where are the nerds, or better yet, people who actually know ropes??
This fall doesn't sound even closely comparable to the force of a UIAA test fall. Ropes are designed to take a fall like this and not be toast.
Some fall that doesn't even jerk the belay up to the anchor will not toast the rope unless it shows signs of cutting.
Still, folks who might be scared to climb with me now should know, I make a point of not taking falls like this.
;-)
Karl
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 17, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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70 footer.
live to tell about it.
new rope.
new rope rug complete with backstory chicks will dig (right chicks?)
win/win.
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apogee
climber
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May 17, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
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"should I retire a brand new rope after a 70ft whipper?"
Take it back to REI and return it for a new one.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 17, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
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WHAT? You just figgered out it werks....
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 17, 2009 - 01:36pm PT
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measure the rope, take another 70 footer, and then re-measure.
keep this up until the rope no longer stretches. then make a door mat.
dang, 97 in Boulder Creek today, whats a mother to do?
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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May 17, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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When I climbed at Ceuse, I routinely saw Euro sport climbers take 50 footers on some of the harder climbs. Some of them are so hard you almost have to skip clips.
I bet this guys rope has had some life taken out of it, but it's probably serviceable.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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May 17, 2009 - 02:23pm PT
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keep it....
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 17, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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I wouldn't worry about it.
Technically, a 70ft fall isn't nescisarily that bad of a fall on a rope, if there are no edges. The more rope you have out, the easier any fall will be on a rope.
A short fall on to a rope can have the same amount of force as a 70ft, but less dispersion of those forces due to a shorter chord. God forbid you factor 2 onto the rope.
Your rope was probably going through many pieces of gear which also would create friction over the length of the rope and reduce the impact forces at the piece that caught you.
If I were you I'd be more worried about the cam you fell onto, make sure those lobes are still functioning properly.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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May 17, 2009 - 03:28pm PT
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The fact that you are asking means you should buy a new rope. You will be asking yourself the same question every time you lead on your current rope. It is your call.
Ken
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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May 18, 2009 - 12:44am PT
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Man, you haven't even told us how many times it's been stomped on with crampons! That's when you start to wonder...
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WBraun
climber
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May 18, 2009 - 12:46am PT
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Why Erik, YOU can always retire instead of the rope .....
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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May 18, 2009 - 02:43am PT
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only if you were using tape.
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Ottawa Doug
Social climber
Ottawa, Canada
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May 18, 2009 - 12:51pm PT
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Retire, it's not brand new anymore!
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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May 18, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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You did not come close to exceeding the UIAA fall factor of 1.7. The length of the fall is 70' and about 120' of rope out => FF 0.58. Worst case this is a fall factor 1 (misjudging distances). Given the amount of elongation (was 25' above pro, fell 70'), your rope did it's job and stretched. You had plenty of rope out to dissipate energy.
The UIAA implies your rope will fail after 5 falls of Factor 1.7. How comfortable are you knowing your rope is guaranteed to now sustain 4 of these before failure?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 18, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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If I took a 70 ft. whipper, I'd retire from climbing and make a rug out of the rope.
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Fresh
Trad climber
meffa, ma
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May 18, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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"The fact that you are asking means you should buy a new rope. You will be asking yourself the same question every time you lead on your current rope. It is your call."
there are plenty of reasons to buy a new rope, but this is one of the silliest. so you should retire a piece of gear whenever you have irrational fears about it? that's superstition, plain and simple. irrational fears aren't bad, because we all have them. but letting irrational fears influence our actions is anything but prudent.
there's only one important question--is the rope safe to climb on after a fall factor of .58?
(...probably.)
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Fresh
Trad climber
meffa, ma
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May 18, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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separate question.
does a 70 foot fall on 120 feet of rope have the same impact on the rope's integrity as a 7 foot fall on 12 feet of rope?
I'd suspect the effect is the same, since the rope is as strong as its weakest component, but I dunno.
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curt wohlgemuth
Social climber
Bay Area, California
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May 18, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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All I can say is, if you finished the multi-pitch climb after a 70' whipper near the bottom, you've either got huevos, or your brain got scrambled on the fall and you didn't know how to say "I think it's time to go down for beer."
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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May 18, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
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In comparing a 7/12 vs 70/120 the rope has linear everything - working elongation, stress/strain, hookean spring like - they're the same.
A 20' fall directly on the belay (FF 2.0) is far more dangerous than a 40' fall with 80' out (FF 0.5).
How much did the leader weigh? That actually makes a difference, not in fall factor, but in maximum stress on the rope. Since most climbers used to weigh 150lbs, this was ignored. With 220 lb wall rats, things change.
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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May 18, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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Man......
too many unasked or answered questions, like:
1)a tumbling fall? Was the fall a sliding "fall" on a slab?
or was the falling leader airborne?
2) If you are learning to lead/neophyte, ok that's your decision whether or not to lead, but why buy a cord under 10.2mm?
3) since the why came up, why would you in your life buy a Beal rope? earlier photos of good and bad rope bad one have too loosely woven sheath and hence small radius of 180, means the rope will flatten out over an edge, translation more easily CUT.
Beal ropes are forever too soft.
American Alpine Journal documents no broken ropes, but plenty of cut ropes and failed knots. A friend nearly broke a blue water rope on a 70 foot fall with a factor of .7. but that is the closest call i have heard of. Go buy a nice 60 x 10.2 from PMI, or Teufelberger, or Mammut. and oh Ya, Mountaineering The Freedom of the Hills might be a book purchase.
Beal ropes make great lines for boat anchors.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 18, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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105 replies on a rope question - man that's completely rc.
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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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May 21, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
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> 105 replies on a rope question - man that's completely rc.
Nope, pure Taco, admit it. (The strength's in the core, not sheath, so to speak.)
> Man......
> too many unasked or answered questions, like:
HOW MUCH DO YOU WEIGH?
That as much as FF is putting meat into the question of work done
by the rope. The UIAA uses a particular mass in its falls and the
assertions re safety; many (most?) climbers are lighter, and so
are less work for the rope.
> American Alpine Journal documents no broken ropes,
> but plenty of cut ropes and failed knots.
Plenty of these? --failed knots? Do tell!
*kN*
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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May 21, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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If you took that same whipper on an old rope would you retire it? And if so, why do you think a 70 ft fall would damage an old rope more than a new rope?
Lets look at what happens to a rope in a fall. As you are falling, you are gaining kinetic energy. As the rope starts to come taught, it has to "absorb" that energy. It absorbs the energy by stretching, and in the process of stretching it's fiber are heated up due to friction between the fibers. Really no different than slamming the brakes on a car. If you're going 100 mph in a car and slam on the brakes, they heat up. When you take a long fall, your rope heats up. The more rope that is payed out, the more volume of rope there is to absorb that heat. Nylon/Perlon gets damaged at fairly low temperatures.
Personally I'd relegate such a rope to top roping, or use it as a haul line. My life is worth much more than $200. It's also tough for me to concentrate on leading when I'm questioning my gear.
You can rationalize not retiring the rope, but it sounds like deep down you know you should retire from lead duty. There is something to be said for listening to that little voice when it tells you to be prudent.
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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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May 21, 2009 - 11:35pm PT
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> My life is worth much more than $200.
Do you buy a new rope for each climb?
--each time you fall?
Why not?
This old "How much is your life worth?" red herring has a long life
of little worth in furthering the understanding of retirement of ropes.
The proper response to much of the doubt in questioners is some
rationale for resolving the problem, not a scare.
*kN*
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captaincrimp
climber
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May 24, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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in reply to perswig's concern about taking video and belaying:
i was using a hands free video technique that allows me to beley at full potential. that is obvious because i caught a very large whipper. no video of the whip, sorry.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 24, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
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whats the point of running video if you don't catch the whip?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 24, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
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You pay $200 for a rope?
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 24, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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Your rope is fine but if you worry and stress about it when you are leading or following then you aren't.
Better buy a new rope and relax................It's better for your mental health.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 24, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
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And don't pay 200 bucks for floss.
Put your money on MEAT. Then ya don't hafta worry & fret.
9.1 mm, sheesh.
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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May 24, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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Take it back to REI
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erik fischer
Trad climber
houston
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2009 - 12:44am PT
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Thanks to everyone for there advice and encouragement. I have definitely been hitting the books and thinking about what everybody has said. Some questions have been raised so here is some more info on the fall:
#1 My weight 170, Belayer weight 150.
#2 It was fairly steep before I fell. I'm not exactly sure how the fall went down. It was all sort of a blur once I started falling(no I was not on anything). My belayer had a better perspective on the fall than I did but I do remember bouncing off the wall at least once and I was airborne face down by the end of it.
#3 I have used the Beal Joker in the past to save weight on long routes. I did not know that Beals are bad ropes (Definitely something to consider in the future and also the thickness of the rope).
# 4 someone else said that I should be worried more about the cam than the rope. There is nothing to worry about on that point. We left the pro in because it was too difficult to retrieve (It was actually a #3 Black diamond nut).
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kent
Trad climber
SLC, Ut
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May 27, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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Your rope is probably fine. You should be more concerned about the events that lead you to taking such a big unexpected fall on small pro on a multi-pitch route.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
OR
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May 28, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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Glad you are okay, Eric. Personally, I'd retire that rope from lead climbing if you can afford it. Seems pretty darn thin anyways for trad climbing on all but very smooth, steep and straight routes. If you are a relatively new leader, you should understand that falls like this should not be typical for most of us.
"The only dumb question is the one not asked."
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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May 28, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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If you keep taking 70' whippers, it's Knott the rope I'd retire.
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phile
Trad climber
SF, CA
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May 28, 2009 - 03:12am PT
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at the opposite end of the spectrum, i have a five-year-old 10.5mm rope that has seen only a small handful of low-FF falls, and not a lot of action in general, but is seriously frizzy from being dragged all over wandering, easy routes.
is age a significant factor in ropes' stretchiness? I don't mind a little frizz, but if the rope gets measurably stiff and brittle with age, that'd be bad. I've heard replace at 5 years, but I've also heard plenty of other gear myths.
thanks for any input. a 70 foot fall sounds terrifying, and like it would take an extremely long time... 3 seconds or so? you can fit a lot of thinking into 3 seconds, i bet.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 28, 2009 - 07:02am PT
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the 5 yr thing is a myth. 10yrs for little to no use as long as properly stored.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 28, 2009 - 09:41am PT
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what Mark said...........LOL!!!!
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wallrat
Trad climber
San Diego CA
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May 31, 2009 - 02:27am PT
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Don't know about retiring the rope, but I'd for sure have to retire the pants I was wearing, if it were me.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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May 31, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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You're rope is probably fine after that fall, supposing you checked it carefully.
Rope stretch is very important, so some people switch rope ends after a big fall... especially higher fall factor falls. it takes a little time for the rope to reduce the stretch
Someone equated a 70 foot and a 7 foot fall, but i think the much increased speed of the longer falling body would make a difference... i know there is more rope, but it must be worse.
matt
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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May 31, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
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Does meansuring the rope and comparing the length before and after a fall make sense with new ropes?
Eric, there is another possiblity. Keep the rope but don't tie in. Just casually loop it around your harness. That way if you take another whipper, there won't be a risk of any rope damage.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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May 31, 2009 - 04:16pm PT
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Roger- I was thinking something similar about measuring the rope before and after
Maybe rappeling/TRing and comparing stretchiness of the two sides? Would probably need to mark the center, and see how stretching shifts/affects the two sides.
Or you could tie the end 50 feet of both ends, and compare stretchiness
matt
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 31, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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I thought it was a bit RC myself, from the start. Seems a might trollish too for that matter.
I'd like to know what sort of climber can get on a trad route and take a 70 foot fall and live, but not know very much about climbing to begin with.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 31, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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Maybe the length of the fall was inversely proportional to the leader's skill.
There's a lesson there.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 31, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
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thats an ol miners trick.
the cables at the headstock of the Empire Mine in grass valley are switched every so often.
the bottom end gets stretched, the upper end gets torn up by the spooling action on the cable drum.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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May 31, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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Maybe I should ditch my rope: she's not as svelte as she once was, her shininess has worn off, it's like she doesn't care enough to take care of herself. I remember when she was new, supple, eager to feel my caress... fvck it, I'm trading her in for a skinner, younger one.
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