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BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 7, 2014 - 11:54pm PT

Are you suggesting that a aspiration to a high moral standard is not possible without belief in a particular god, rather than another god or no god at all?

Not particularly. Any man can posses the same moral equivalency as his neighbor or village if he so partakes. But for the example of slavery. Lincoln was just the signer of the bill. It was a Scottish Protestant who hearing a sermon form the bible on how all men are created equal was he inspired to argue and fight for the rights of black people. Prolly the first white man to profess that the black man was created in the image of God. At the time This was a slap in the face to everyone. Atheist and religious alike. Slavery was socially accepted by all and commonplace. So even the religious had it wrong and by no means am I sticking up for all people who claim to be religious or Christians.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:20am PT

if these events took place in our own time." Sam Harris

That's just it, the whole bible HAS to be taken in context. The Old Testament was written for people from 0 AD - 10,000 BCE. The New Testament was written for now. That's not to say we're to disregard the OT. There are many lessons we can learn of Gods character and that of mans. Whenever you hear people down talking the bible because what is said in the OT they haven't a clue about Christianity.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:21am PT
You want to war. You want to force your opinions with violence because you can't see what I have. I have a total grasp on life and humanity...

This is the scary part.

Refers back to my post a couple weeks ago. I thank Fate, Reason and Science every day compassionate and peace-loving Christians and Muslims who take the bible's supernaturalisms literally don't have the numbers to create law if not fatwa in this democracy.

Don't let em fool you.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:35am PT
Can't read all of these last two pages tonight I don't have time. But Tony, I respect you mucho. So, please tell me exactly your definition of religion. I only ask this because my best friend, jesus, disclaimed the religion of his heritage and time.

If people read Matthew Chapters 5,6 and 7 and lived it our whole world would change for the better.

I rarely enter these threads of religion and politics but thought I'd drop by tonight. I don't think everyone hates the real jesus, just the false christianity. Jess sayin' I don't have a lasso around the truth. But then has the truth ever been lassoed? Aren't we all learning, I hope, loving and exploring life and all it holds for each of us?

Peace, Joy and Love on a beautiful Monday night. lynnie
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:42am PT

The Bible and the Koran are hardly a beacons of morality.

That's not the claim. The moral of the OT is the 10 commandments. The moral of the NT, and the lesson Jesus taught is to love ur brother as thyself. No one can live by the big 10. And no one can keep hold of any morals. That's what the whole bible and our own experiences teaches us. That's why God sent Jesus, to pick us up when we fall.


Oh and what about those Japanese Zeros. They where unreligous suiciders.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:25am PT
By any love and respect for human dignity measure of morality, certainly one that embraces confirmation by weight of evidence over ruling blind faith in unsubstantiated doctrine enforced by complete deference to untestable authority, queers are no more or no less a moral type of people than the rest of us.... kind of like the european Jews of 1930. We know that as fact not blind doctrinal faith, just as at one time we suddenly discovered that in fact the world was round not flat.

Careful. You are looking down it to the hole that is Godwin.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2014 - 02:04am PT
Bruce I respect ur arguments, but I'm still learning too.
One thing, morals only arise when there are two are more people. So firstly I only need to be right to what pertains to the immediate me. That means not going against my conscious. which is the summation of all my reasoning through what I've seen and experienced. What's ok for me might not be ok for you. And visa versa. So by whose mold should we form these morals?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2014 - 03:16am PT

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that was the intent, rather than as a club of dominance and submission.

You know ur not that far off.. I seeing now how materialist(compared to spiritualist) get blinded by the rules and laws and fear punishment. You really should read the NT. the whole reason for Jesus was to do away with the laws. Man cannot be perfect and is not good. Atleast in Gods eyes. And not that we shouldn't try to be the best we can be. The only law Jesus said you must follow is to love your brother as yourself! Think about that. Could you ever tell your brother to f*#k off for ever because you didn't agree on something? Or disown him for taking 50 bucks out of ur wallet. You might get pissed, but if rationalized with an apology would you forgive him. And if he loved you like a brother he prolly wouldn't do that in The first place. God will forgive us for anything and we should do the same to each other. What you do for the least, is the most you can do for God. Meaning, when help someone that isn't as fortunate as you, you are acting like God. That's not jus giving someone money, it's giving advice, knowledge, guidance, discipline,etc. I think brotherly love is the only moral we need.
stuv

climber
NL
Apr 8, 2014 - 06:51am PT
I'm fine if other people are practicing christians and can find strength in it or whatever, just don't come to my door to talk to me about it and don't try and teach any of it in public schools. That doesn't seem to resonate much, though.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Apr 8, 2014 - 11:08am PT
When considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one isn't. Religion is one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies. It can't be said any clearer than that. This IS the reason faith is a conversation stopper.
TY
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2014 - 11:41am PT
What about discussing ones hopes and dreams?

The intellect of one who prays and praises God doesn't only have awareness in his own mind. He must extend beyond himself and seek to understand the mind of the creator. In that progression one can learn that all minds are connected and needed to complete Gods plan. Every mind belongs to God and each is filled with specifics that we have to deal with. Our choice is that of attitude.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Apr 8, 2014 - 11:53am PT
That's just it, the whole bible HAS to be taken in context. The Old Testament was written for people from 0 AD - 10,000 BCE. The New Testament was written for now.

"New" testament is at least 1000 years old, innit? Parts are older, redactions included. I've never been able to reconcile that ancient bs to the world I live in, not without some mighty suspension of disbelief.

DMT
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Apr 8, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
"The intellect of one who prays and praises God doesn't only have awareness in his own mind. He must extend beyond himself and seek to understand the mind of the creator. In that progression one can learn that all minds are connected and needed to complete Gods plan. Every mind belongs to God and each is filled with specifics that we have to deal with. Our choice is that of attitude."

All that and more can be pursued without subscribing to a imaginary diety. What I'm asking you to entertain is that there is nothing we need to believe on insufficient evidence in order to have deeply ethical and spiritual lives.
TY
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
The intellect of one who prays and praises God doesn't only have awareness in his own mind. He must extend beyond himself and seek to understand the mind of the creator. In that progression one can learn that all minds are connected and needed to complete Gods plan. Every mind belongs to God and each is filled with specifics that we have to deal with. Our choice is that of attitude.

When I attempt to think beyond myself, I seek to understand the minds of other people, and their potential beliefs that there is not a creator or that there are multiple creators, or that their creator may not be clothed in Christianity.

"Every mind belongs to God," within the context of believing your own version of God, is basically a declaration of war. It is a mandate that others peacefully accept your wisdom and way of thinking, or else.... And history shows us many times over what comprises the "or else" part.

I mostly agree with TYeary... faith may not stop a conversation exactly, but it does prevent one from changing position based on the conversation. At best, it can lead to an understanding of each other's perspective with no movement of one's own position. But the same can be said for Reason. One who is steeped in Reason and hears a Faith-based argument is quite unlikely to change position based on the conversation. So Faith and Reason are two orthogonal measures, different dimensions, completely non-exchangeable. If you want to persuade someone who values one of those more than the other, then that dimension is the only means of accomplishing the goal.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
Sarah Palin has attitude.

What else has she got?

the eternal respect and gratitude of the Republican Base
Sanskara

climber
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
Class, that's what she has got.

That's one classy woman that Palin.

Brains I forgot brains!
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:37pm PT


“The punishment of every disordered mind is its own disorder.”


Malemute

Ice climber
great white north
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
He must extend beyond himself and seek to understand the mind of the creator.
100% delusional
jstan

climber
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
When considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one isn't. Religion is one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies. It can't be said any clearer than that. This IS the reason faith is a conversation stopper.
TY

Well said.

If people did not get something out of fabricating a belief system, they would not. The net costs are difficult for a person to calculate because the benefits are personal, but liabilities are cultural.

My impression is the Abrahamic cults have a level of insanity rather different from other belief systems. We may be laboring under this because one person, Herod, was both brilliant and quite simply insane. So it is, 2000 years later, we have this baggage threatening our survival.
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Apr 8, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
Class, that's what she has got.

That's one classy woman that Palin.

Brains I forgot brains!


Such sarcasm! (You were being sarcastic, weren't you???)
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