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philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 26, 2014 - 07:34pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 27, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
Open Letter to a Fellow Atheist
—Ace

I published this (in rawer form) as a response to Seattle Slough, who is not really a troll, but does come here to disagree.

I don't mind that he disagrees. He does get a bit insulting, but it's the Internet-- what do you expect? I'm going to insult him (a bit) in this post.

Internet rules. What can you do.

But having written a response to him, and needing some content, I've decided to pop this out as a post.

We start with his quote, in my usual effed-up manner of quotation:

>>> Let me ask you:
Do you believe the Earth is less than 20,000 years old?
Do you believe in a world-wide flood?
Do you deny the theory of evolution?

If the answer to any of these is "yes" you are a fool. If the answer is "no" you deny the Bible as divine truth.

...

Seattle, being a non-believer myself, I agree with you that these things are not true.

Here is where I depart from you: Calling someone who does believe them a fool.

Was Blaise Pascal a fool? Before you answer, you should look him up on Wikipedia. He was quite brilliant. Incredibly brilliant, actually. Also, a religious Christian zealot (I think he'd agree with that characterization).

Was Isaac Newton a fool? I trust you know enough about him to know he was no fool.

Was William Wilberforce a fool? If you have to Wiki him, do so.

What you are doing is taking your lack of inquisitiveness (which I share) for some explanation as to What It All Means (I don't know that it means much of anything, and I suspect you feel similarly) as your demarcation between "fool" and, I guess, a wise man such as yourself.

There are a lot of brilliant men -- far more brilliant than you could dream -- in history, who not only believed in God (and Jesus), and not only were not "fools," but were in fact smarter than you (or, even myself, ego compels me to say, though it's a somewhat closer call) could ever hope to be.

You are guilty not of atheism (which is not a crime) but the great sin of our age, the great Vanity, that of Tribalism.

You believe that your membership in a tribe makes you superior to others; I think your devotion to a tribe makes you inferior.

You are desperately searching for affirmation of self in trivial proofs. I believe this, I don't believe that; ergo, I'm superior.

You might as well be basing your ego upon your favorite ice cream flavor.

Like you, I am an atheist (or, agnostic/Deist/atheist depending on the day). Like you, I do not believe anything in the Bible, except for some small things like I'm pretty sure a man named Jesus lived and caused a bit of ruckus.

But to me, this is about as much evidence of my superiority over my fellow man as my interest in True Detective.

You are establishing, in your mind, a hierarchy of persons, from wise to fool, based upon your own idiosyncratic What's Hot/What's Not list.

Here is an eye-opener for you: Some people wonder more about the First Mover than you or I do. Some people find scientific explanations implausible or unsatisfying.

This does not make them fools; it makes them of a different personality type than you or I.

Now, you will say they're wrong about what they believe; I'll say I agree with you.

But you are essentially doing the same thing a gay-hater does when he knocks him for being gay. The religious were born with a quixotic nature, a need to look beyond the tangible and mundane.

You and I weren't.

We should no more be "proud" of this than we're proud of our sexualities or our eye color.

The Vanity of our age is to find more and more trivial proofs that we matter. That we count. That we're better.

Politics, religion, racial or gender identity, sexual preference... all of it. We stupidly look at the world with eyes full of greed for proof that We Matter. We're Better. We're Special.

There is more to the world than that, if you look. Even if you don't believe in any god.

Some religious people find meaning, and personal validation, in Jesus. Some others seem to find a great deal too much meaning and personal validation in not believing in Jesus.

Let it go. Let vanity go.

I have a theory, which I frankly have not thought about very hard, but my theory is that Vanity is the handmaiden of all other sins.

For no other sin can be undertaken without causing a revulsion in the conscience except that Vanity -- or as a modernist would term it, ego, the Almighty I -- makes up a complicated and nonsense justification for that sin.

Let it go man. Let it go.

So I guess this makes me an agnostic Deist Buddhist or something.

Who knows. Who cares.

Go with God, or, if you like it better, go without him.

But get over your ego. You'll move faster and lighter without it.

http://ace.mu.nu/
go-B

climber
John 6:44
Mar 2, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

...more than a candle! :)
dirtbag

climber
Mar 2, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
Go-B,

I hope you realize the Bible has been extensively edited by mortals.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Mar 10, 2014 - 12:51am PT
I had my coworker who is Indian, with no predisposition to Christianity, but also vegetarian - read John 6:53-58:

53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

He almost puked..

'You are what you eat' is not so new of the idea apparently?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:16am PT
It brings into play the question of those who absolutely, positively believe that the bible is the actual true written word of God, and that everything in it must be taken as literal truth......any here?

So is Jesus advocating cannibalism? Is that the only way to Heaven?

Could any of the literalists explain that?
WBraun

climber
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:19am PT
"So is Jesus advocating cannibalism? Is that the only way to Heaven?"

Why ask stupid questions?

Scientist make experiment to see.

Start eating people and find out ......

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:26am PT
The bible says god created the 10 commandments on stone tablets.
Moses wasn't up there with a chisel & a hammer.

So why doesn't god create bibles?
Because god is an idea, and can't directly manipulate matter.

Believe what you will.

God, if you believe in all that stupid sh#t, watches you. Even if you fail to acknowledge this, you can feel it.

God and his minions, are here to help us. Some of you will spit on his friends, some will disregard Him, but Jesus lives.
WBraun

climber
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:29am PT
Matter is the inferior energy of God.

Even an "Idea" is non different from God.

The atheist class is very unintelligent ......
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:33am PT
Looks like Jseus believed in his words. Did it work out?

Christianity started as cannibalistic cult and was run that way for the first 300 years, Christ flash and blood passed down the line by consuming the bodies of sect members who had his flash and blood in them. But then they decided to soften up a bit. Cannibalism was not widely accepted in Roman society at that time to put it mildly, and to gain popularity Christians turned all that into allegory of sort. Religion is an instrument of power after all, and back then religion was The instrument of power. So they betrayed Christ and terminated that chain of passing his flash to new generations and making him live forever as he believed, all for the political gains.
What else is new.
jstan

climber
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:44am PT
We have direct quotations and writings from prophets and philosophers who antedated this Jesus by hundreds of years. Nothing from Jesus. Only from authors hundreds of years after.

Perhaps Jesus could not read or write? Buddha was educated and in Herod's day many Romans had the technology. Is there data on the level of education among the Jews and their writings? Would be surprising if there were not.

If Jesus could not read or write, God must have been rather a poor father. In that case we might expect a lot of murder, injustice, and unfinished tasks in our world.

Interesting.

Herod was what we would today call a climber. Anything, absolutely anything, would serve if he gained and held power. It was a truly vile time. I think a story of an uneducated disenfranchised Jew who tried to work against that day's villainous politics would make a great tale. It would be that except for all the politics and striving for control over people's lives that came after. Would you not agree?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 10, 2014 - 01:59am PT
John, you are reaching, baby!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Mar 10, 2014 - 02:03am PT
Interesting. Perhaps Jesus could not read or write? Buddha was educated and in Herod's day many Romans had the technology. Is there data on the level of education among the Jews and their writings? Would be surprising if there were not.

Educated though he may have been, there are no writings directly attributable to Buddha, either.

All we have is from his disciples. It's kind of the way it works.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 10, 2014 - 02:07am PT
Coz, i'll give a shout-out to jesus for ya. Be safe, and rock on !
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 10, 2014 - 03:01am PT

Interesting. Perhaps Jesus could not read or write? Buddha was educated and in Herod's day many Romans had the technology. Is there data on the level of education among the Jews and their writings? Would be surprising if there were not.

In Herod's Day, Jewish boys by age 8 regimentally read and wrote the Torah. Doesn't say specifically but it's assumed Jesus was raised in this manner. At the age of 12, Jesus was documented as quoting the Torah to the High Priests. At the age 30 Jesus opened the bible and read from Isaiah to the temple. Jesus could read and write.

The 12 apostles that walked with Jesus began giving their first-hand eyewitness accounts of what Jesus had said and done only days after Jesus rose to heaven. They first waited for the filling of the HolySpirit. Then they all went in different directions throughout the world preaching what Jesus had taught. The first four books are the authored testimony by four of the apostles.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 10, 2014 - 09:31am PT
Documented? My reading indicates there is scant to no historical evidence that Jesus existed at all. Where are these documents?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 10, 2014 - 11:25am PT
The earliest historical reference to the Gospels occurs occurred in 125CE. Their authorship remains unknown.

It seems that the Epistles of Paul, who never met Jesus, provide the historical foundations of what was to become Christianity. Paul doesn't mention the Gospels, however. Most of the tenets of Christianity - the resurrection, the divinity of Christ, etc - owe their origins to Paul's writings. Neither the writings of Jesus nor those of his fellows survive. From a historical standpoint, Paul, not Jesus, is the most influential person in history.

The church Paul created and organized was part religion, part business. Christianity provided a network of trading partners in disparate cities at a time when there were few to no other organizational frameworks available to support long distance commerce. That Christianity's teachings promoted toleration of foreigners jibed quite well with the trading aspect of the venture.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 10, 2014 - 11:52am PT
because it's based on an antiquated god concept whose interpretations lead to so much senseless violence and bloodshed.

a hundred years from now concepts, ideas or metaphors of god will have changed. In America they won't be so exclusively centered on, or monopolized by, Jehovah (aka Yahweh, aka the God of Moses aka the God of Abraham).

too bad that time isn't now.

.....

when there were few to no other organizational frameworks available

that's right.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 10, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
given that

a) America is a first world outlier in its religiosity,
b) particularly in the popularity of recently invented fundamentalist Christian sects, like the born again movement, which preach literal interpretation of the Bible, discrimination, rejection of basic science, and other teachings that go against modern scientific and social trends,
c) those very same sects have hemorrhaged over a quarter of their flock since the early 90s, and
d) other developed countries have become vastly more secular in recent years

God may well look very different than today in the American future, if He's still around at all. If Biblical Literalism survives - The Word 2.0 probably won't say much about discriminating against homosexuals or subjugating women, or a 6000 year old planet.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Mar 12, 2014 - 10:23pm PT
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