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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Sep 17, 2013 - 10:09am PT
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I don't hate Christianity, or any of the traditional churches/religions. Though I have a rule, I don't consider any religion valid unless it's been around several hundred years. It's my way of avoiding cults and weird religions leaders that aren't good for you.
Overall religion is there to tell you that doing bad has consequences, that it's a very good idea to be nice. I get it and thus I don't bother with attending church often. I don't need the social aspect of having a group cheer you on for being nice. I'm not that socially dependent.
Plus, Lynne's best friend is Christ and I really like her even more for it.
Anastasia
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 17, 2013 - 10:52am PT
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I don't consider any religion valid unless it's been around several hundred years. It's my way of avoiding cults and weird religions leaders that aren't good for you
So you're ok with a popular, long-lasting cult then.
All churches and all religions are a stand-between. Something trying to relate the original mystical experience of some dude...Jesus, Buddha, the Prophet, the schitzo guy on the city bus.
Why do you need a middle-man? Go directly to the source, experience it for yourself.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 17, 2013 - 11:02am PT
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God is the great ubiquitous metaphor for daddy/the feary father (or mom). God is a metaphor for final authority, determining whether we eat, are healthy, successful, happy… in his approval, as in the approval of dad, we are taken care of, become ultimately happy. You might say the human race has daddy issues.
“As to the gods, we can never know if they exist or not, owing to the complexity of the problem and the brevity of our existence.” – some Greek.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 17, 2013 - 11:03am PT
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Small children always remain at the shallow end of the pool under supervision to splash ......
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 17, 2013 - 11:44am PT
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As to the Greek...don't remember who, maybe Protagoras??
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
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Better question:
Why does Christianity hate everyone so much?
Help me. I'm unfamiliar with that "Christianity."
John
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Sep 17, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
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Why does Christianity hate everyone so much?
Help me. I'm unfamiliar with that "Christianity."
Well, John, it's like this...
According to Christianity we have this innate smut, we're dirty (unclean), certainly undeserving of the Golden City of Immortality till it's remedied (thru divine forgiveness). Could this be the source of the "hate"? This innate "smut" btw, or inherited filth, derived from the Fall (otherwise Original Sin) is pure myth. As much myth as that other ancient "theory" regarding evil, disease and dying, bad happenings, in the world: Pandora's Box.
To outliers, your Original Sin is no more advanced than Pandora's Box. It's the 21st century, time to upgrade your beliefs (take some science courses if it helps) and time to start thinking more in terms of Christian mythology (or Abrahamic mythology) than Christian truth.
C'mon, do your part: Help the 21st century send. ;)
Till you're baptized, till you believe in God Jesus, till you're forgiven, you're "hated." There. That interpretation, I think, is as good, as valid, as any other coming out of the Halls of Abrahamic religion.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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HFCS,
If you correctly describe Christian theology, how do you explain, e.g., John 3:16?
John
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Sep 17, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
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Sorry, John, I won't bite anymore, not today. :)
.....
For those interested, the very few if any, to see through the theistic mess described last page by the dialog between malemute and dmt re: "god" or "god concepts" see Daniel Dennett... jstan linked to it several days ago and I linked to it several years ago!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJZQwy9dvE
It's very good (he's very good) at highlighting the mess, the challenge of navigating it, and moreover the challenge of just dealing with it as part of an inter-generational, long-term process.
re: good reasons for belief in God (there aren't any) versus good reasons for professing belief in God (there are a few)
re: supers versus brights? bad idea
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
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Good, HFCS, because I have work to do today that precludes taking many ST breaks.
Since we're pointing others to works to speak for us, though, I recommend The Reason For God by Tim Keller for a good counter-argument to some of the views expressed in this thread.
John
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 17, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
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The West as a Muslim invention
"Islamic thought and learning transformed medieval Christendom beyond recognition, Lyons writes. A key import was natural philosophy, the precursor to modern science, and the idea that came with it: the notion of a university as an intellectual, cultural and social institution. Roger Bacon, the 13th-century English scientist and philosopher, travelled through Muslim Spain dressed as an Arab and was among the first to teach natural philosophy in Paris. Without these imports, Lyons says, the Renaissance would not have been possible and European “progress” as we know it would have been inconceivable. The Arabs gave Europeans their ideological and intellectual identity - indeed, Lyons suggests, “the West” itself is a Muslim invention.
But the West's gratitude to Islam was expressed in its wilful forgetting of the Arab legacy. This process began with the successors of Adelard and Scot and had four core themes: Islam distorts the word of God; it is spread solely by the sword; it perverts human sexuality; and its prophet, Muhammad, was a charlatan, an anti-Christ. It was thus necessary to write the Arab learning out of history and to claim direct descent from Greece. As Petrarch, one of the most prominent 14th-century anti-Arab intellectuals, declared: “I shall scarcely be persuaded that anything good can come from Arabia.” Scot's mastery of Arab learning led Dante to dump him in the lower depths of Hell, among the sorcerers."
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 17, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
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Secularism, religion and societal health
From Nebraska to Nepal, from Georgia to Guatemala, and from Utah to Uganda, humans all over the globe are vigorously praising various deities; regularly attending services at churches, temples, and mosques; persistently studying sacred texts; dutifully performing holy rites; energetically carrying out spiritual rituals; soberly defending the world from sin; piously fasting; and enthusiastically praying and then praying some more, singing, praising, and loving this or that savior, prophet, or God.
But that is not occurring everywhere. I am referring to two nations in particular, Denmark and Sweden, which are probably the least religious countries in the world, and possibly in the history of the world. Amidst all this vibrant global piety — atop the vast swelling sea of sacredness — Denmark and Sweden float along like small, content, durable dinghies of secular life, where most people are nonreligious and don't worship Jesus or Vishnu, don't revere sacred texts, don't pray, and don't give much credence to the essential dogmas of the world's great faiths.
In clean and green Scandinavia, few people speak of God, few people spend much time thinking about theological matters, and although their media in recent years has done an unusually large amount of reporting on religion, even that is offered as an attempt to grapple with and make sense of a strange foreign phenomenon out there in the wider world that refuses to disappear, a phenomenon that takes on such dire significance for everyone — except, well, for Danes and Swedes.
What are societies like when faith in God is minimal, church attendance is drastically low, and religion is a distinctly muted and marginal aspect of everyday life?
Many people assume that religion is what keeps people moral, that a society without God would be hell on earth: rampant with immorality, full of evil, and teeming with depravity. But that doesn't seem to be the case for Scandinavians in those two countries. Although they may have relatively high rates of petty crime and burglary, and although these crime rates have been on the rise in recent decades, their overall rates of violent crime — including murder, aggravated assault, and rape — are among the lowest on earth. Yet the majority of Danes and Swedes do not believe that God is "up there," keeping diligent tabs on their behavior, slating the good for heaven and the wicked for hell. Most Danes and Swedes don't believe that sin permeates the world, and that only Jesus, the Son of God, who died for their sins, can serve as a remedy. In fact, most Danes and Swedes don't even believe in the notion of "sin."
So the typical Dane or Swede doesn't believe all that much in God. And simultaneously, they don't commit much murder. But aren't they a dour, depressed lot, all the same? Not according to Ruut Veenhoven, professor emeritus of social conditions for human happiness at Erasmus University Rotterdam. Veenhoven is a leading authority on worldwide levels of happiness from country to country. He recently ranked 91 nations on an international happiness scale, basing his research on cumulative scores from numerous worldwide surveys. According to his calculations, the country that leads the globe — ranking No. 1 in terms of its residents' overall level of happiness — is little, peaceful, and relatively godless Denmark.
The connection between religion — or the lack thereof — and societal health is admittedly complex. It is difficult to definitively establish that secularism is always good for society and religion always bad. However, the often posited opposite claim is equally difficult to substantiate: that secularism is always bad for a society and religion always good. To be sure, in some instances, religion can be a strong and positive ingredient in establishing societal health, prosperity, and well-being. And when considering what factors contribute to the making of a good society, religion can be a positive force.
Here in the United States, for example, religious ideals often serve as a beneficial counterbalance against the cutthroat brand of individualism that can be so rampant and dominating. Religious congregations in America serve as community centers, counseling providers, and day-care sites. And a significant amount of research has shown that moderately religious Americans report greater subjective well-being and life satisfaction, greater marital satisfaction, better family cohesion, and fewer symptoms of depression than the nonreligious. Historically, a proliferation of religious devotion, faith in God, and reliance on the Bible has sometimes been a determining factor in establishing schools for children, creating universities, building hospitals for the sick and homes for the homeless, taking care of orphans and the elderly, resisting oppression, establishing law and order, and developing democracy.
In other instances, however, religion may not have such positive societal effects. It can often be one of the main sources of tension, violence, poverty, oppression, inequality, and disorder in a given society. A quick perusal of the state of the world will reveal that widespread faith in God or strong religious sentiment in a given country does not necessarily ensure societal health. After all, many of the most religious and faithful nations on earth are simultaneously among the most dangerous and destitute. Conversely, a widespread lack of faith in God or very low levels of religiosity in a given country does not necessarily spell societal ruin. The fact is, the majority of the most irreligious democracies are among the most prosperous and successful nations on earth.
Just to be perfectly clear here: I am not arguing that the admirably high level of societal health in Scandinavia is directly caused by the low levels of religiosity. Although one could certainly make such a case — arguing that a minimal focus on God and the afterlife, and a stronger focus on solving problems of daily life in a rational, secular manner have led to positive, successful societal outcomes in Scandinavia — that is not the argument I wish to develop here. Rather, I simply wish to soberly counter the widely touted assertion that without religion, society is doomed.
If you can smell my ax starting to grind here, your nostrils are in good working order. The claim that without religion, society is doomed deserves to be challenged because, aside from being poor social science, it is a highly political claim that is regularly promulgated.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 17, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
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I've always wondered if the old testament god was pissed off and vengeful because he was single. Did he get divorced from Mother Nature?
If god did have a wife you know she'd be super hot and look like she's twenty, while god would still be an old man with a white beard, and he'd look at the camera and say "It's good to be God."
Only slightly less ridiculous is the image of Jesus as a dirty blond haired surfer dude with blue eyes. Did Jewish guys in the Biblical age really look like that?
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
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I don't hate Christianity, I hate Christians.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Sep 17, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
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“the West” itself is a Muslim invention.
" yuuu...whoooooo.......Load of crap"
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 17, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
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Ward
Your "yuuu...whoooooo" argument is not unexpected, but as usual a bit shallow. You can of course as usual insist on your argument's clearity or talk about something else...
To repeat Lyon's suggestion:
"Islamic thought and learning transformed medieval Christendom beyond recognition, Lyons writes. A key import was natural philosophy, the precursor to modern science, and the idea that came with it: the notion of a university as an intellectual, cultural and social institution. Roger Bacon, the 13th-century English scientist and philosopher, travelled through Muslim Spain dressed as an Arab and was among the first to teach natural philosophy in Paris. Without these imports, Lyons says, the Renaissance would not have been possible and European “progress” as we know it would have been inconceivable. The Arabs gave Europeans their ideological and intellectual identity - indeed, Lyons suggests, “the West” itself is a Muslim invention."
Can you do better?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Sep 17, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
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insist on your argument's clearity or talk about something else...
I thought I was pretty clear. Yuuu....hoooooo
At least my thoughts are my own , and not formulaic cut and paste propaganda.
Lyon is obviously a fool, a pseudo-intellectual who constructs and revises history to fit a rabidly endemic and hackneyed anti-western template.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 17, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
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What's not to hate?
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SuperTopo on the Web
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What advantages for the individual are "given/offered" by feeling, talking about and acting on the feeling of being hated by others?
Let us know!