Cerro Torre- the lie and the desecration

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Messages 241 - 260 of total 266 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Feb 3, 2015 - 09:48am PT
http://pataclimb.com/knowledge/puzzle.html



!

ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Feb 3, 2015 - 10:32am PT
Oh and Big Bird, by the way we're not talking about the the Compressor route and it's bolt chopping saga. We're not arguing about that. 1959 dude.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 3, 2015 - 10:53am PT
Not to mention the 'diary' * page facing the picture of Egger is written like a third grader would.

*It is shown on the Pataclimb exposÚ page.
Andy de klerk

Mountain climber
South Africa
Feb 3, 2015 - 11:56am PT
I've always wondered what they did during those 6 days?
Found a "Tomo Boulder" to huddle under? Hardly likely
Is it possible that Egger was avalanched from the Col Standhart and not from their route on the Torre?
Do the fall lines look right based on where Jim found Eggers leg?
Fantastic jigsaw puzzling Rolo and Kelly and a fantastic thread for all wanting the truth
The big question then in my mind then is where exactly Maestri was found by Fava. Was it at the base of their route or further right?
Andy
Andy de klerk

Mountain climber
South Africa
Feb 3, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
Also, just for the record, I really enjoyed Kelly's book "the Tower", read it twice back to back. Well done Kelly for pulling all the threads together on this half century old controversy.

Talking about threads though, what intrigued me was all the wierd knots and coils on Eggers rope. And the fact of the broken ends of the rope on the 1959 route. Maybe they went to take a look at getting to the col of conquest via the wast side of Stanhart and then bailed and went back up their route?

Interesting how the truth always comes out, piece by piece

Andy
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Feb 3, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
Awesome read.
Thanks for the post.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 3, 2015 - 01:52pm PT

It's an interesting read.

Interesting how the truth always comes out, piece by piece

I'd rather say: The case is deconstructed piece by piece, supported by observations and then a "truth" of a higher probability is constructed.

Not that it makes the complementary aggression of the chopping Canadamericans any better...
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Feb 3, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
Everything that Andy just said. It's starting to make a little more sense now. Looks plausible that he could have fallen coming back from Col of Standhart. Anyway the 6 days now has a better storyline to it.

Arne

Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Feb 3, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
Fantastic sleuthing!
MisterE

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 3, 2015 - 02:36pm PT
Props to Colin Haley for the money shot, as well!
snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Feb 3, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
Just read this thread for the first time...

Coming across this new revelation at the end of it all was quite the surprise ending. Wild stuff
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Feb 3, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
Huge thanks to Rolo and Kelly on this new discovery. It has been a fifty-six year old cat-and-mouse game we have had to play with Maestri, and it has disfigured all of mountaineering on a number of levels.

Rebuffat used to say, "Climbing is, above all, a matter of integrity."
snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Feb 4, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
bump- check the discovery!!
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Feb 10, 2016 - 10:50pm PT
I often wonder how some incredibly successful people can, at some point, end up lying about their achievements.

Dunno, of course, how accurate the study mentioned below is, but it brings to mind Maestri and Cerro Torre.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/08/why-winners-become-cheaters/
Watermann2

Mountain climber
Saluzzo Italia
Feb 11, 2016 - 12:04am PT
Good morning Mr Donini, I had not yet read your article, which says absolutely the truth, and I fully agree with her on one of the biggest lies of the history, (and there are more lies, not just the Maestri) I could enumerate other, one above all that of Cesen on the South Face of Lhotse. The place an aphorism quote) on liars, even in Italian, because the translation into English is more difficult for me that do not know your language, and then I make use of the automatic translator. Many greetings to a very kind person as well as the legend !!!!!!!!!!!


Liars
A liar is a person who does not tell the truth. A liar tells lies. There are many categories of liars: those who tell a lie for a good purpose, those who tell a lie to opportunism and to get something, those who say such big lies that no one believes it. There is an ongoing debate between those who consider the omission a lie: who does not tell the whole truth, but it hides part of it, is to be considered a liar or not?


Bugiardi
Un bugiardo Ŕ una persona che non dice la veritÓ. Un bugiardo dice bugie. Ci sono molte categorie di bugiardi: quelli che dicono una bugia a fin di bene, quelli che dicono una bugia per opportunismo e per ottenere qualcosa, quelli che dicono bugie talmente grandi che nessuno pi¨ ci crede. C'Ŕ in corso una diatriba tra chi considera l'omissione una bugia: chi non dice tutta la veritÓ, ma nasconde parte di essa, Ŕ da ritenersi un bugiardo o no?


donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2016 - 06:55am PT
Alpine climbing does not have judges and referees monitoring climbs. A climber's veracity is all their is
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Feb 11, 2016 - 09:37am PT
This thread has been a most enlightening one; one of my favorite threads on ST...and I'll just leave it at that. Thanks!
Sula

Trad climber
Pennsylvania
Feb 11, 2016 - 10:31am PT
donini posted:
Alpine climbing does not have judges and referees monitoring climbs.
It does however have a host of interested & savvy observers inclined to be skeptical of bold claims poorly supported by evidence. In this notable case they have caused the truth to be revealed.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 11, 2016 - 10:51am PT

Italian history writing has traditionally had some problems. Bonatti was for a long time one of it's "victims".

Lacedelli and Cenacchi: K2 The Price of Conquest

"To discover what was missing it would have been enough to question the witnesses. The problem is that nothing that has been said or written about K2 has ever been subjected to a rigorous historical interpretation, and most of the witnesses have never been questioned.

The only people who have been heard are those involved in the arguments, and then only when those arguments were actually in progress. As a consequence, it was not possible to get past the arguments.

This is a recurring problem in the way we Italians confront our recent past. Rarely do we consider history as an institutional or cultural question. On the contrary, we tend to think of it as a question of personal opinion, or worse, a private event of no concern to the general public. The consequence is that it is hard to make historical judgements, because these tend to be seen only as personal judgements. In order to write an account of the past, we have to wait until someone dies, someone forgets or someone loosens up. Only then, and with the blessing of the heirs, but still with the risk of being taken to court for libel, can we confront things".
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 11, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
Great thread - thanks!

I just saw an article about police installing video cameras on a telephone pole, monitoring a suspect on their private property, and then arresting them as a result of the information gathered. Courts decided it's legal.

It's a fun mystery, piecing it together bit by bit. Wouldn't make as good a story, or as exciting an adventure, if we could just pull out the video footage and see what happened.

Is a climber's word all that we have? Maybe now it is. Will we prefer it when we can just pull out the satellite surveillance for all to see - when we'll be able to just test ourselves against a virtual environment that challenges our physical and mental and emotional abilities of strength and bravery and integrity and rewards us accordingly, the way that beautiful people are rewarded for their beauty. I'm not convinced that's really what we want. Lucky for us to have lived in an age when integrity mattered, or whatever it is that we sell to ourselves as being our beautiful integrity.
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