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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Props to Colin Haley for the money shot, as well!
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Just read this thread for the first time...
Coming across this new revelation at the end of it all was quite the surprise ending. Wild stuff
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Huge thanks to Rolo and Kelly on this new discovery. It has been a fifty-six year old cat-and-mouse game we have had to play with Maestri, and it has disfigured all of mountaineering on a number of levels.
Rebuffat used to say, "Climbing is, above all, a matter of integrity."
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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bump- check the discovery!!
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Watermann2
Mountain climber
Saluzzo Italia
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Feb 11, 2016 - 12:04am PT
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Good morning Mr Donini, I had not yet read your article, which says absolutely the truth, and I fully agree with her on one of the biggest lies of the history, (and there are more lies, not just the Maestri) I could enumerate other, one above all that of Cesen on the South Face of Lhotse. The place an aphorism quote) on liars, even in Italian, because the translation into English is more difficult for me that do not know your language, and then I make use of the automatic translator. Many greetings to a very kind person as well as the legend !!!!!!!!!!!
Liars
A liar is a person who does not tell the truth. A liar tells lies. There are many categories of liars: those who tell a lie for a good purpose, those who tell a lie to opportunism and to get something, those who say such big lies that no one believes it. There is an ongoing debate between those who consider the omission a lie: who does not tell the whole truth, but it hides part of it, is to be considered a liar or not?
Bugiardi
Un bugiardo è una persona che non dice la verità. Un bugiardo dice bugie. Ci sono molte categorie di bugiardi: quelli che dicono una bugia a fin di bene, quelli che dicono una bugia per opportunismo e per ottenere qualcosa, quelli che dicono bugie talmente grandi che nessuno più ci crede. C'è in corso una diatriba tra chi considera l'omissione una bugia: chi non dice tutta la verità, ma nasconde parte di essa, è da ritenersi un bugiardo o no?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2016 - 06:55am PT
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Alpine climbing does not have judges and referees monitoring climbs. A climber's veracity is all their is
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Feb 11, 2016 - 09:37am PT
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This thread has been a most enlightening one; one of my favorite threads on ST...and I'll just leave it at that. Thanks!
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Feb 11, 2016 - 10:31am PT
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donini posted:
Alpine climbing does not have judges and referees monitoring climbs. It does however have a host of interested & savvy observers inclined to be skeptical of bold claims poorly supported by evidence. In this notable case they have caused the truth to be revealed.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 11, 2016 - 10:51am PT
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Italian history writing has traditionally had some problems. Bonatti was for a long time one of it's "victims".
Lacedelli and Cenacchi: K2 The Price of Conquest
"To discover what was missing it would have been enough to question the witnesses. The problem is that nothing that has been said or written about K2 has ever been subjected to a rigorous historical interpretation, and most of the witnesses have never been questioned.
The only people who have been heard are those involved in the arguments, and then only when those arguments were actually in progress. As a consequence, it was not possible to get past the arguments.
This is a recurring problem in the way we Italians confront our recent past. Rarely do we consider history as an institutional or cultural question. On the contrary, we tend to think of it as a question of personal opinion, or worse, a private event of no concern to the general public. The consequence is that it is hard to make historical judgements, because these tend to be seen only as personal judgements. In order to write an account of the past, we have to wait until someone dies, someone forgets or someone loosens up. Only then, and with the blessing of the heirs, but still with the risk of being taken to court for libel, can we confront things".
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Feb 11, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
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Great thread - thanks!
I just saw an article about police installing video cameras on a telephone pole, monitoring a suspect on their private property, and then arresting them as a result of the information gathered. Courts decided it's legal.
It's a fun mystery, piecing it together bit by bit. Wouldn't make as good a story, or as exciting an adventure, if we could just pull out the video footage and see what happened.
Is a climber's word all that we have? Maybe now it is. Will we prefer it when we can just pull out the satellite surveillance for all to see - when we'll be able to just test ourselves against a virtual environment that challenges our physical and mental and emotional abilities of strength and bravery and integrity and rewards us accordingly, the way that beautiful people are rewarded for their beauty. I'm not convinced that's really what we want. Lucky for us to have lived in an age when integrity mattered, or whatever it is that we sell to ourselves as being our beautiful integrity.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 11, 2016 - 07:56pm PT
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rbord, good one :)
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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May 30, 2016 - 12:20am PT
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Bump for great climbing content
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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May 30, 2016 - 06:36pm PT
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like others, I enjoyed Kelly Cordes's recent book. I particularly liked an analysis of Maestri's claim in terms of the equipment and the standards of the time.
It occurred to me that there isn't a good written history of the relationship between gear and standards in ice climbing. My casual understanding is that standards were pretty low until the mid-1970s. But that story isn't well-told, even in Chouinard's fine treatise.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2016 - 07:17pm PT
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Equipment has had a very distinct role in climbing history. I started climbing with lug sole shoes, pitons and a swami. When I did .5 Gully on Ben Nevis in 1972 we had straight shafted ice tools with no wrist loops. Packs, sleeping bags, stoves, tents and clothing were primitive compared to what is available today....and I was among a wave of climbers who chuckled about the gear are predecessors used.
One of the reasons I have zero nostalgia for old gear is the fun that I'm having with the stellar equipment in today's climbing arsenal.
Some older climbers of note have made a point of not upgrading their tack....could it be a defense mechanism to hide shortcomings?
As long as I continue climbing I'll upgrade to the latest gear even when I start to look foolish using it.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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May 30, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
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" Pitons and a swami" .....Luxury, back when I was a lad we use to walk 5 miles to the crag and tie in with a bowline on a coil wrapped around our waist with a stiff gold line rope no less. Then we use to smoke some really horrible weed and drink some really cheap swill and then proceed to throw our selfs at the climbs. The youth of today....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 30, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
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^^^ Hear, hear! Boo to cheap swill! Gimme good swill and I'm good with the swami and the cave ice axes.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 19, 2019 - 12:50am PT
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Also this thread has been chipped. Is the chipping a desecration? Random lawmakers destroying historical material, something created commonly by participants on the ST forum. Is there in America no protection for intellectual integrity and the discovery of truth when business and lawyers show up with their manipulative threats?
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Apr 19, 2019 - 02:40pm PT
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Wow Shelby that's cool! Would be fun to have a component from that old gas beast.
Arne
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dee ee
Mountain climber
Of THIS World (Planet Earth)
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:07pm PT
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Thanks Shelby!
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