failed rescue attempt on Aconcagua

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Doug Buchanan

Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
Mar 1, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
Now therefore, why is it that in 2009, with all the prior mistakes to analyze with the remarkably capable human mind, the humans are still making so many, many mistakes, even in discussing any particular mistake or array of mistakes?

Mountain climbers have accidents. Rescuers fail. Doctors misdiagnose ailments, militaries lose wars, governments keep overprinting overprinted worthless paper money, fools vote for the DemocanRepublicrats who keep making the same mistakes, etceteras.

I often climbed in the Alaska Range in the winter, at or beyond an edge of human activity, sometimes solo, far from anyone else. I therefore carried heavier loads, a full winter camp to the summit, extra of many things, so that if all went awry, I could stop anywhere, be comfortable for days, and laugh.

Harder work. I have sat-out some spectacular storms in some spectacularly precarious spots.

The summits, like the certificates and titles, were of no consequence. The climb itself was the process of learning the related knowledge. The summit pitch is often of less challenge than many pitches below it.

As a result I rarely did not reach the summit.

Therefore, if you wish, while fools pursue their illusions of summits, certificates, titles, money and power over the other guy, YOU might consider pursuing knowledge. It is the only thing your mind accumulates.

Are you of your mind, or your certificates, money and childish power over the other guy?

Because you are the other guy to 6.86 billion other guys, your power is a fool's illusion. In contrast, your knowledge is useful. National Park rangers, perceiving their power over climbers, could not understand this paragraph even if you hand them a dictionary.

The human mind learns from asking and answering questions, not repeating what a certificate-issuing instructor says. Who issued the first certificate instructor his certificate to issue certificates? Well? What does the question suggest of what you really wanted to learn?

Titles and certificates are a fool's ruse. You want the knowledge, not the certificate, including the knowledge of the institutional flaw of the certificate-issuing empire.

The mentioned metaphorical "boxes" were created by power-based institutions to fool people out of questioning the contradictions of the institutions and their self-stagnated leaders-in-their-box.

So form your own volunteer mountain rescue groups, for the knowledge you will learn, including the knowledge derived from the government agencies commonly ignoring or attacking your group to defend the budget excuses of their unquestioning certificate-holding rescue bureaucracies.

The latter is the more useful knowledge.

The climbing guides seek money, not the knowledge of the mountains that they do not hold despite their laughable lies to fool foolish clients. They do not take full camps to the summit, and do not form their own rescue groups, etceteras, the cost of money.

No problem. Let them derive their money at its cost, and enjoy the show, as this forum offers, while you learn from the questions you ask of them and yourself.

Or something of that general altitude, there around the corner, under the cornice.

DougBuchanan.com

tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Mar 1, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
Doug, you're arguing theory of knowledge type of stuff. I dig it, but it but people like rubber meets the road stuff, so to speak.

If you ever end up here in Bishop, give a me a ring, we'll crack a few beer and stay up all night, talking about these things, while we drive everyone else nuts. Been there, done that enough to know I like it, but it doesn't go over well.

I don't know Rox, I agree with most of what you are saying and I don't agree with people attacking you for it, but in my book, the rescuer can do no wrong, even when they screw up.

I've been in a lot of situations where I am thinking "if this doesn't work, we are f*#ked." There is no plan B, but I've always been lucky. Maybe these guys went up with the best case scenario in mind, and got f*#ked. They carry that weight. Us folks out here on the Taco don't. They know more then we do, unless they are total as#@&%es, which they are likely not because they climbed the dang peak to find these people.

Me? I just think we can do better as a group.

You always hear that sh#t on Everest, you can't rescue people up there. I just don't buy it.

It might be hard- all rescue is hard, but there have to be ways to do it. Right now, all the real high altitude rescue work is done by a collection of guides, sherpas, and volunteers. You see that welsh guy dying up on Everest for three days, slowly freezing his body parts off, but with a core of humnanity that stays warm. Climbers pass him by, some try to help, others don't.

What if every climber on the mountain were organized to try to help, ferrying loads, and taking turns dragging the guy down? What if there was a team dedicated to the purpose? How would they do it?

When people say it can't be done, it sounds like a cop out, in other words I don't want to do it. They got themselves in that trouble, it' their fault.

I am not a strictly religious man, but I've always been partial to "there but by the grace of god go I." In other words, that coulda' been me. Sh#t happens, and there may not be any rhyme or reason to it.

Also Rox, have you seen a viable response to why someone couldn't camp/bivi up there?

If I could make a point, even here at the end of a ramble, is that there is a difference between a climb and a rescue.

They don't have ropes on that route- who cares? You don't need the rope for a climb, but you damn well might for a rescue.

No tent because there are huts- with some one who may crawl 50 meters an hour, you might not get to a hut.

Think before you leave the gate.
nicolasC

climber
Mar 2, 2009 - 05:58am PT
Rokjox,

I understand your emotion and your will to speak for the missing.
You do raise some questions which deserve answers, but are we capable of providing you with answers which are 100% true to all of your questions? Are you capable of accepting what you hear? I am not sure of either.

I encourage you to read (use google translate or yahoo babelfish)
the testimonials of the rescuers, the interviews of the rescuees and of the helicopter pilot who was able to bring rescuers to camp1 the first day, and then locate the party on day 2.

http://www.alborde.com.ar/montania1/montanismo136.html.

Federico Campanini gave all he could to his clients. If all but one are alive today, it is because he did his best to organize their survival. (in the fine tradition of guiding)

Rescuers did triage and maximized the amount of people they could rescue. Some of the rescuers are suffering from frostbite sustained because of the mission they gave themselves.

The video show rescuers asking for permission to abandon the guy. That permission was denied to them. Between the 2 professionals and 3 fellow climbers, the 5 of them continued to try to save him. In the end, only the 2 pro stayed with Federico. I can not imagine that any of the 5 did not care for him.
Brandon Lampley

Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
Mar 2, 2009 - 06:21am PT
Well, I am here in Argentina, have spent much of the past month on Aconcagua, and by chance presence have participated in their rescue regime.

Let me say this. It´s the wild west out there. Park rangers and special police and guide volunteers and a helicopter service (with by appearances a well skilled pilot) trying to help folks out. Their intentions are good; but they obviously lack skill, equipment, organization, and judgement to some degree and in that order. They most often perform adequately, or even very well, as the normal rescue just involves heading down hill to the helo or mule evac site. Most with medical training would be shocked at their standard of care though.

Importantly, they are PRESENT, MOTIVATED, and TRYING THEIR BEST.

They have the best interest of climbers in mind, likely partly because this keeps the guides and mule services in business, which keeps them in a job. They are part of a big business machine.

They have been forcibly helo evacing solo climbers from the mountain, against their will, because ´´4 die all ready, no more this year´ (on the polish side) Show any weakness, and you get on their next helo to Horcones list. Weakness includes not having old school double plastic boots, or the tent they like, or taking 6 instead of 5 hours to reach a certain camp. Or choosing to carry your own gear instead of putting it on a mule. But I digress. Suffice it to say the establishment is discriminating against unsupported climbers, ie those folks not paying $$ to the services on the mountain.

It´s unfortunate Federico died up there. After screwing up and guiding his clients down the wrong way, he did manage to keep it together long enough to save the others. Good job to the big team that saved his remaining clients. And rest in peace to Federico.

He would have had a better backup network had he not been bandit guiding. Being part of the big business machine here helps. It may have made no difference though.

The standards for Argentina Aconcagua guides may shock some. But you get what you pay for, and most people want a cheap trip to 7000m, and one of the 7 summits under their belt.

I predict the outcome of this situation and the other deaths this year will be increased enforcement of guiding rules, perhaps higher park fees for a more professional rescue presence on the mountain, and restrictions on solo and unsupported climbers.

I will be attempting to pass my thought on the subject along to the Aconcagua Park authorities via the AAC, I encourage you to do the same.

tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Mar 2, 2009 - 08:06am PT
Brandon, thanks for the update. Any more info would be great.

I suspect that these rescue guys down there are already making changes. I'd love to hear what they come up with.

Doug Buchanan

Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
Mar 2, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
Tom......

(Of great value for climbers, if you question this.)

You demonstrate the reason that rescuers fail.

Mountain rescue personnel and everyone can easily correct the contradictions you express.

First, however inconsequential, a discussion on this forum is more useful to climbers, than "talking about things" in Bishop. The beer would have to be inordinately fine ale.

Humans train their mind by the words they use. The Nazis SINCERELY believed that they could solve a problem by killing Jews. The US DemocanRepublicrats SINCERELY believe that they can solve a problem by killing a lot of Iraqis and Afghans, even after they saw the failure of that concept in Vietnam, Soviet Afghanistan and every war of human history.

They created their fool's illusion by incessantly repeating illogical arrangements of words to train their minds. Their current mantra is the "war on terrorism", not unlike their fool's "war on drugs".

They ask no questions of their blatantly contradicted words that they say and write over and over and over to train their mind.

A contradiction left in place, rather than immediately resolved, will destroy even empires, and certainly any other goal, by design of contradictions. Humans hold no ability to sustain a contradiction.

Your statement, "but in my book, the rescuer can do no wrong", like the sincere belief of cops and other institutionally self-deluded chaps, genuinely trains your mind to not recognize an array of contradictions, and thus repeat them.

The neural routing of data in the human brain is a training process. If two sensory perceptions indicate the same conclusion, the brain will consider it as fact, until three or more contradicting sensory perceptions delete that fact and create a replacement fact. If 20 wrong sensory perceptions train a neural routing, it is extremely difficult to correct their result. Only the most effective questions will do so.

When INSTITUTIONAL contradictions are created, their group of neurons will route larger arrays of contradicting data to wrong conclusions, even the most grossly obvious wrong conclusions, such as the belief that starting a war can solve a problem.

From every climb I returned with a written list (effective sensory input) of corrections to what I did wrong on that climb, usually equipment and process improvements.

Opposite institutionally self-deluded chaps, I recognize that the test of time (thus more knowledge) will prove my every statement and action to be contradicted (wrong). Therefore I question it to resolve as many currently known contradictions as possible, and am quick to belatedly resolve it upon demonstration that I missed a contradiction.

Therefore my knowledge exponentially advanced beyond the chaps whose agencies and organizations trained them to believe that the institution can do no wrong. An institution cannot exist as an institution (organization of people), if it recognized its controlling contradiction that therefore reduced it to nothing more than INDIVIDUAL HUMAN MINDS which are all that human minds can be.

Every mountain climber, rescuer and other human is screwing-up at least half the time for every action, and more often if functioning as a government-trained sort who uses government force to disallow any open competition to the government, to thus reinforce the neural routing illusion that government dolts are never wrong.

The Park Service methodically banned volunteer mountain rescue groups in Parks, to seize the activity for budget excuses (greed for money and power). Experienced climbers were replaced with unquestioning, ego-craving junior Park cops who were handed "mountain rescue" credentials that genuinely fooled them because they never questioned that process.

So when RockJox and anyone else accurately identifies a contradiction, the wise person actually resolves it in their mind, completely, rather than defends it by offering unrelated or illogical arrays of words.

It is toilsome to advance your knowledge beyond ancient institutional illusions that perpetuate YOUR PROBLEMS, but worth your time. If you want to do that, your first choice is to wisely question the rhetorical illusions of government, the extremist institution that still believes that killing, imprisoning, destroying, seizing assets and disallowing open competition (all contradictions) solves problems, the illusions of ludicrous fools.

Quit your government job or remain as laughably stupid as I was in the Army.

You can learn that on the Polish route, if you ask yourself effective questions while you are there. Write your answers.

DougBuchanan.com
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Mar 2, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
I recognize that the test of time (thus more knowledge) will prove my every statement and action to be contradicted (wrong).

I'm a bit confused by this. Does the above statement also encompass the statements which you issue as resolutions to the contradictions?
Doug Buchanan

Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
Mar 2, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
Former Stzzo...

Yes.

Consider the primitive condition of the humans, still mired so deep in the intellectual dark ages that the majority of them still perceive that killing each other and destroying what they do solves problems.

It is easily predicable that even the most advanced knowledge in such a rudimentary society will be replaced with more accurate reasoning when the humans belatedly emerge from the intellectual dark ages to utilize reasoning instead of force and deception.

Therefore the intellectual goal is to extend the accuracy of one's reasoning as far through all the identifiable contradictions as one can, considering the current knowledge available.

For perspective, at this time, one individual, with internet access and basic website construction knowledge, can manifest world peace. No government could escape. Might take 6 months because of the language issue. Alas, there is no incentive, and more intriguing puzzles to solve.

Goals less complex are child's play. But incentive is a controlling concept. With it, things are done by humans. Without it, they are not done. He who solves a puzzle looks to the next puzzle rather than the boring process to manifest the solution.

Let me know if any significant institution leaders hold the incentive to promptly manifest world peace, or win any wars, or solve any economic problems, etceteras. The solutions are merely the synthesis of more diverse knowledge than any institution comprehends because part of it is outside their institution and all institutions. Their titled leaders cannot comprehend the existence of knowledge beyond institutionally titled and credentialed people, by design of institutions.

Ask yourself more questions about the functioning of the human mind within organizations.

The balance is perfect in all things, including the functional design of the human mind. It has all of its counter balances, with only one inordinately rare access to advanced knowledge. Your only enemy is within your mind, readily available to defeat, to therefore have no enemies in the world. No human could create a game of such brilliance.

How else would a device like the human mind keep making the same dumb mountain climbing and mountain rescue mistakes for decades?

Cool show, huh?

DougBuchanan.com
crock

Trad climber
The Windiest Mountain, Wyoming
Mar 14, 2009 - 01:20am PT
Report from Argentina, by Facundo Garcia of Grupo de Operaciones Especiales en Rescate, as left as a comment on www.backpacker.com:

http://www.backpacker.com/blogs/the_pulse/804

and also available at:
http://tomasdinges.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/death-and-the-mountain-aconcagua-highly-detailed-incident-report/



INCIDENT REPORT-
Mt. Aconcagua incident

TYPE OF MISION: Search & Rescue / Search & Recovery.
LOCATION: Mt. Aconcagua / Mendoza Province / Republic of Argentina.
ROUTE: Approach from Normal route (North Face) and from the main peak, down to the Polish Glacier route (South-West Face)
ALTITUD OF OPERATION: 6500mts. (21.325ft.)
RESPONDERS: UPRAM (Mendoza Police Mountain Rescue Team) / Civilian climbers on scene (Volunteers).
VICTIMS INVOLVED: 6
CASUALTIES: 2

-1-

SUMARY:
Wednesday, January 14th. 2009. After the conquer of the highest mountain in the American continent, the Mt. Aconcagua, an Italian climbing team leaded by an Argentinean mountain guide (UIAAGM-IMFGA) named Federico Campanini (31), were trapped into a big storm right on the top of the mountain at 22,841ft. at 4:30pm.

With below cero temperatures -24°C (-14°F aprox.) and the sun coming down, the team had to descent as soon as possible to camp Berlin at 19.127ft. During the way down and with a snow tempest on their backs, the guide missed the track of the Normal Route, and leaded the team to the Polish Glacier route. During this attempt to descend in a wrong and more difficult route, an Italian member of the team named Elena Selin (38) fell down a slope angle and rolled down the mountain aprox. 984ft. dyeing later by diverse wounds that immobilized her, entering in shock and later dyeing by hypothermia. (Coroner´s report)

Due the situation, the rescue team received the emergency call out from the mountain guide in distress but due the terrible storm happening, the rescue command advised to deploy the rescue team as soon the storm calm down. Meanwhile, a 14 men team was moved from Camp 1 to Camp 2 to stay ready to attack the peak when there was a chance.

The Italian team survived the night by staying together to keep the warmth, eating a few raisins, chocolates and mixing urine with ice to drink. The guide Campanini, in a heroic act, gave his gloves, jacket and half of his meal to the Italians. This accelerated the hypothermia process to his body.

Next day (12 hours later) the storm continued and the rescuers decided to move up at no cost arriving to the scene after climb 4921ft. aprox. from camp 2 (Condor´s Nest) in the middle of the storm to the top of the mountain to then turn down to the Polish route in the search of the victims.

During this time, a rescue helicopter operated by Horacio Frechi fled over the top of the mountain near the Polish Route trying to locate the victims, finding one climber alive who was making signs of their location. This helicopter fell in free fall almost 980ft. due the storm and lack of visibility and hopefully the pilot controlled the machine and returned safe to Camp 1 after report the location of the victims.

After being 24 hours in the mountain, the victims were located by the rescue team who encountered and evacuated the Italian climbers Matteo Refrigeratto, Mirko Afasio and Marina Atanasio who were all in very bad physical condition such as mountain sickness and severe hypothermia. The victims could climb up to the top again to then were packed into 2 stretchers and slide down the normal route to Camp1 when they were evacuated to an hospital in Mendoza DC by helicopter.

The rescue team made a subhuman effort by staying almost 12 hours at 21.325ft. at -22°F to perform this mission saving the life of the 3 Italian climbers and leaving behind the body of the dead climber Elena Selin who wasn’t located until 12 days after by a private rescue team formed by local mountain guides who were hired by the Selin family.

Meanwhile, the life of the mountain guide who was suffering deep brain edema and hypothermia was located and the rest of the rescue team (6 men) remained with him trying to take him out for around 4/5 hours. They made all possible to remain with Campanini and evacuate him, but the time was running and there was no more time and was too late to keep the team at that height while 2 members of the rescue team were experimenting health problems as well.

The lives of the rescuers were in clear danger taking in account that they spent almost 24hs. at -22°F and they climbed in 2 days and a half to the top and stayed there. A thing that most climbers do in 8 days.

-2-

Tired, exhausted and with no supplies, the rescue team cannot wait for backups cos´ there wasn´t. They were by their own and the tried to move up 1000 ft. the body of Campanini alive to reach the top again and try to descent him from the normal route were a team of civilian climbers were climbing up to help at the same time.

Without supplies to stay another night, a proper stretcher and oxygen bottles, they were in a clear danger and asking for permission to the rescue command first, they decided to leave Campanini where they were at 884ft. down the peak in order to evacuate their selves. Campanini was alive but hardly could make it out with his brain edema and sever hypothermia case.

FACTS:
1- Mt. Aconcagua has insufficient resources to perform a SAR mission successfully in some situations like this. The rescue teams that operate above 17.000ft. precise to have in both Camp1 and Camp2 supplies stored in deposits in order to attack the peak fast and light and re-supply in this high altitude missions.

2-All rescue teams in Mt. Aconcagua are fiscally fit, trained and are very experienced, but no one has an MD or EMT member in the team. Team members has strong PHTLS training, but a lack of elements such as collapsible/lightweight SKED/Sled stretcher (SKEDCO type) and lightweight oxygen tubes to carry at that heights.

3-The rescue teams did not carried basic personal survival equipment, snow shovels, sleeping bags, oxygen bottles, stoves, etc. in order to go lite and reach the victims ASAP.

4- Poor evaluation of the rescue mission. Good rescue strategy but bad evaluation of the logistic capabilities.

CONCLUSIONS:
Typically found in many 3rd. world countries. Financial problems are also found today in the Argentinean rescue teams. Even with the lack of resources named before, the rescue teams at Mt. Aconcagua evacuated successfully a rate of 3 persons a day and in this season evacuated 240 climbers from the 3.844 climbers that were this season in the mountain. From 1926 to 2009, 126 climbers died trying to reach the top of Mt. Aconcagua, this season were actually 4 casualties in total.

The controversy around the video recorded in the last minutes of guide Campanini doesn’t reflect the real effort that those rescuers made for almost 24hs. Actually, after that heroic mission, 2 rescue members suffered lung edema and severe hypothermia en their hands.

A common question around the rescue community is why they pulled up the body of Campanini instead of made a rope-stretcher or utilize another lifting technique. For those who don´t understand, I must say that in those conditions, lift an stretcher by hand is almost impossible if you don´t have al least a 12 men team to lift in turns half of the team a couple of meters and then the rest of the team a couple of meters more and doing this to reach the top.

Due the slope angle and rocks, make a backpack stretcher to sled the body were impossible. The rescuers stayed 3 hours to lift with a rope the body of Campanini only 329ft. That can provide and overlook of the difficult terrain and body condition of the rescuers.

The right technique would be to pack the victim in an SKED stretcher, climb up 180ft. per lapse, and mount a ¨Z¨ rig or another hauling system to accelerate the lifting process to reach the top.
Today, rescue teams in South America are cutting in half climber plastic containers (those big blue colored ones used in expeds.) to use them to improvise and sled. But at those heights, carry that on the outside of the backpack or even sliding it over the ice will take down any climber/rescuer at high winds. Besides, take your gloves out to build some system like this with -29°F will chill and freeze your hands for sure.
If the team has a lack of technical rescue stretchers at least they would have to carry a bottle of oxygen, sleeping bags and snow shovel in order to extend the life of Campanini till the backups arrived.

Is absolutely understandable that at those heights, all rescue personnel needs to go light, but this is an example on how the basic personal survival equipment must be carried ALWAYS.
At that height, ask to the victim to walk by their own is impossible. The cold freeze your body, num your legs and the lack of oxygen make you dizzy and you lost the thinking capabilities.
In the video, you will note that the rescuers insult verbally Campanini. This is cos´ commonly at that altitude where there´s a lack of oxygen and you’re mentally incapacitated; your brain is hard to think and focused in a specific action. In general persons with acute mountain sickness tend to get angry sometimes, pull down the jacket´s hood and stay quiet remaining in on a place. The insults tried to break the apathy and sometimes rescuers need to shake up the victim’s body to make him release adrenaline and take him out of there.

In conclusion, the rescue team made the best they could and more. Their lack of recourses are not their fault, are the fault of those in the government who supposed to equip the law enforcement teams like this case.
This rescue team saved the life of the 3 other members of the Italian team. I don´t think their failed on the mission at all. They did all what they have on their hands to save Campanini also. Those rescuers took a hard decision that no rescuer wants to take, but also, they were ¨walking on thin ice¨ for hours. No rescue team needs to loose their men to save others life for an unnecessary reason. Is cold, tough to say, but here was the life of Campanini or the life of other 6 rescuers in play. The team leader took the right decision for sure.

For those who read this, sorry for my English. I tried to do my best to inform you about this controversy and gave you an example of a situation like this.

Inst. Facundo Garcia
Captain/Directive Committee
GOER – Argentina
crock

Trad climber
The Windiest Mountain, Wyoming
Mar 14, 2009 - 01:27am PT
Also of interest is this account, on summitpost.org,
"Losing a New Friend on Aconcagua’s Polish Direct",
which describes a two man team's attempt to ascend that route a few days before the rescue under discussion occurred, and gives some insight into why the Polish Direct might not have been a workable route to descend with Campanini:

http://www.summitpost.org/trip-report/480644/losing-a-new-friend-on-aconcagua-s-polish-direct.html

It describes the death of Stefan Jeromin when he slipped on the descent.
crock

Trad climber
The Windiest Mountain, Wyoming
May 17, 2009 - 01:22am PT
An article from the BBC with quotes from various involved persons,
"Danger on South America's highest peak":

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8048216.stm
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
May 17, 2009 - 08:40am PT
Thanks for posting that analysis Crock. I'm not sure I agree with blaming the government, but everything sounds right on.

The analysis says federico had a cerebral edema, the BBC says pulmonary, I suspect people are guessing.

The Chief

Trad climber
From the Land where Mogols still roam!
May 17, 2009 - 09:14am PT
IMO...

It don't matter a lick if it's on the "Big E", Mac Attack, Aca, Zion or the "Big Stone".

If you are not technically savi, don't have the experience or are physically fit and ready for the task and challenge at hand, I do not believe that it is local SAR's responsibility to be expected to and be ready to go out and save your ego based, ignorant and self-centered ass. Period.

As I see it, far too many in recent years, have taken on this false sense of security that the local SAR folks are OBLIGATED to save their ass. In having this mindset, too many folks go out and do things that have absolutely NO business doing.

And that is WRONG!

tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
May 17, 2009 - 10:58am PT
Chief- agreed. This type of SAR mission happens from time to time, especially on Whitney. People call SAR that don't need it thinking we can easily help them, which we can't.

Folks who go out and get in over their heads, through inexperience, idiocy, or accident, I have more sympathy for. Sh#t happens.

What portion of their desire to push it was based on the knowledge in the back of their heads that the could call for a rescue? It's hard to say, and probably a little bit in everyone.

The question I have is about guiding. The client is a declared novice. In the clients mind, they know they are inexperienced, that's why they hired a guide.

I bet the false sense of security for a client is far more immediate then thinking a SAR team can bail them out. The client might be thinking that the guide will bail them out, which may be way beyond the scope of what the guide can realistically do.

Just show the clients (and any mountaineer for that matter) a video of a couple of body recoveries. That should steer people toward caution. Body recoveries are never pretty.
The Chief

Trad climber
From the Land where Mogols still roam!
May 17, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
"Body recoveries are never pretty."

Especially when it's bits and pieces that have been out in the sun for a couple of days, are bloated and just ripe!


And let us not forget that things can go array during ANY SAR Evolution....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjHB1-c61nA&NR=1
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
May 17, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
I can't watch that one. It's been posted before.

I said that people should be forced to watch a couple of body recoveries, but people should watch a few sars. It ain't fast and it ain't easy. Don't get into trouble, then, if you do, get yourself out. If that ain't going to happen, then call SAR.

A lot of people, adhere to this. If a victim thinks this way, you can't help but want to help them.

This Aconcauga thing looks like the debate any first responder makes, weight and time vs. gear. The oldest debate in the book for climbers too. They got burned and failed, but most of the time it works. They ran up naked and had no back up plan, no cavalry coming.

It's a common mistake.

You know that guy who's pack is always too heavy so you make fun of him? He's the guy you need when the sh#t hits, him and three more like him.
The Chief

Trad climber
From the Land where Mogols still roam!
May 17, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
"You know that guy who's pack is always too heavy so you make fun of him? He's the guy you need when the sh#t hits, him and three more like him."


Like this one....
Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
May 17, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
Ya got yur autographed Norman Clyde cast iron skillet in there? :-D
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