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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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Some of you may know Roy has been struggling with a long term, debilitating medical condition affecting his arms.
(this has been an ongoing issue since 1997 involving the muscles and tendons)
No definitive diagnosis has been rendered and no effective therapies have been found, despite the fact that he has spent a lot of money with numerous doctors trying to cure it. Roy has been unable to work since June 2007 as a result.
Let's get together and help Roy out!
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Feb 18, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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Roy,
Do you mind if I post this up on the home page of Mountain Project?
Cheers
john
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Place or Another
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Feb 18, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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You guys are awesome!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 18, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Sorry to hear about this. I'm happy to help out either way, but will try to arrange my schedule to make it down for this worthy event.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Feb 18, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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Here's to Roy!!
Wishing I could be at the event, it looks awesome.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 18, 2009 - 02:23pm PT
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Thanks for thinking of that John Mac, go right ahead and copy to Mtn Proj.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 18, 2009 - 02:23pm PT
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Man, Rick, you need to take that show on
the road. Like, bring it back to Colorado, so the rest of the Eldo Prancers
could see it too!
I can't be there to see it, but I'll certainly send
some to Tar, one of the great posters and climbers (and of
course a real gentleman, for sure) at the Taco Stand!
Here Here for Roy!!!!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Feb 18, 2009 - 02:30pm PT
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How CAN we get this on the road? I am arranging a few other shows in the Portland area and would like to see how we could arrange this too.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Feb 18, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
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I'm a crap shoot on making it to Josh, but I got some classic Persona swag that I'd donate to the cause for the auction....
How many tacoians even know what Persona was?
per·so·na
Pronunciation: \pər-ˈsō-nə, -ˌnä\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural per·so·nae \-(ˌ)nē, -ˌnī\ or personas
Etymology: Latin
Date: 1909
1: Way swanky sh#t designed and sewn by Tarbuster from 1992ish-1997ish.
Great plan for a good cause.
Prod.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 18, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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Steve W & Ihateplastic:
Interesting idea of putting the slide show/benefit on the road.
It currently exists as a stand-alone event.
The show itself is essentially Dean Fidelman's collected resource of images for the Stonemasters book; this includes many of his own photos and many photos from the original Stonemasters.
Dean AKA Bullwinkle will need to chime in on this one;
I'm not sure what his overall promotional platform was meant to encompass...
All your thoughts are much appreciated.
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Feb 18, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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Cheers to Roy!!!!
BUMP!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 18, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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I'd help out in PDX in any way I could.
Do I smell SoCal sushi in the mix...
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Feb 18, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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I've got a Calendar and a Book to make, after that, sure I'll take the show on the road. . .it would be amazing to do a show with John L reading from the Book and the photo's on the Big Screen. . . DF
this is to help my friend Roy out. . .
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 18, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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You are quite generous with your time and resources Dean.
This means a lot to me.
Thank You.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 18, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Early April sounds like a good time for the next JT trip, so I'll try to make it.
Always enjoy Roy's posts -- both the words and the pictures.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Feb 18, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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Sounds like a party to me, I'll be there.
Hang in there Roy!
Cheers,
Mike
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Feb 18, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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Its up on the home page of mountainproject and also in the events section. I'll keep it on the front page.
Let me know if there need to be any changes.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Feb 18, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
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I'm in Roy, you gonna attend...that'll bring in the girls fer sher.
The word on this NEEDS to get out and we should all attend to help with the Boy's situation, if we all only knew of Roy's contributions to the climbing world....it's a no brainer.
Hope to see you and the beautiful Lisa there as well.
Peace
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Feb 18, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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Wouldn't miss it. I'll have to dig some things out to auction off.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 18, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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Missed that auction part - will have to see what I can dig up for that...
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 18, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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I had no idea Roy was having trouble. Sorry to hear this to say the least.
hoping for the best, ph
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 18, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Thanks to Dean and Todd for putting together this benefit for such a great fellow.
And it sounds like a fine show, sushi or no.
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Double D
climber
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:17pm PT
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Hey Roy,
Didn't know...hope this all works out well.
If you'd like me to do a fundraiser as well with numbered edition photo's, let me know and I'll pony up!
Cheers and prayers for healing.
The boy can climb...even in a dress!
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
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Wish I could make it...should be a good turn out though(I hope!)...Roy has one hell of a posse!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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Ha!
I think we already know too much DoubleD ...
Thanks for your support and suggestion with the photos; please contact Ricky on that idea ... it's a good one for sure.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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Love to be a part of this if I can. But we'll need to differentiate this "Stonemaster" event from another road show also flying under the Stonemaster banner.
JL
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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Caylor
I'd donate more to help you take pictures!!!!!!!
Haa haa haa!!!!
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Fletcher
Trad climber
the campfire just a ways past Chris' Taco stand
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Feb 18, 2009 - 07:06pm PT
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I'm gonna try to make it if I can... a good cause for a great guy (and I've never even met him!).
Fletch
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 18, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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"Proceeds to benefit Roy McClenahan’s out of pocket medical bills."
What's wrong with your medical condition Roy?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 18, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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Yay for Roy.... who am I sending the swag to? Ricky?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 18, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
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Hi Werner,
I routinely experience significant physical impairment with hands and lower arms.
It presents as severe repetitive strain and localized fatigue in the forearms/wrists.
Autoimmune & adrenal & vascular issues maybe: very difficult to diagnose and treat.
Enough so that I cannot work and perform routine chores, on-demand, day-to-day.
This has been problematic, slowly worsening for 11+ years.
I’ve been unable to work for over a year and a half.
Thanks for your interest, concern, and support: Werner & Everybody,
Roy
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 18, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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Russ!
You da man.
E-mail Ricky about how to handle swag donations to the climbing gear/memorabilia auction.
raccomazzo@bmalaw.com
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 18, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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Done....
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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Whoa Roy
I didn't know. That's terrible.
You need a job. Become eBay wheeler dealer.
Make big bucks selling other peoples sh'it. You set up the eBay store and do all the fuking horrendous online stuff for them and take a percentage.
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F10
Trad climber
e350
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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I remember Roy talking about issues with his arms at the Woodson reunion, and I thought what a bummer. But the guy's attitude is always great,
I plan on being there, get better
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
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Hey Tarbuster, I remember you and your physical challenges often....and pray. Sorry they haven't gotten any better. It was so Grate meeting you at the Josh Reunion ! You are a stellar dude in the superlative. Great getting to know you and Lisa this past year on this wonderful thing called Taco. Thanks for all your incredible support Dude !!!: D
I will be there for the Very Cool Function and hope to bring some friends along....peeps not gear :))
Yo out there, I can come a day or two early. If anyone needs someone to run around and help out I volunteer. Whatever I can do let me know. I run a corp so I can organize but I'm also good at taking direction and doing the ground up work ....a gift Dan boy taught me.
Hope this event is big and the Cowboy benefits in the same proportion. Cheers to the Taco and its campfire camaraderie.
Lynnie
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
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Werner said: “you need a job”.
Bingo.
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Imagine that it has to be almost entirely hands-free.
Describing my symptoms & limitations, then matching these constraints against the demands of an opportunity, that’s the tough part to appropriately explain and imagine.
I was prepared for this, before I allowed Spencer to launch into this benefit program.
Throughout the last 11 years I’ve passed through a number of occupations, with increasing symptoms slowly stripping away my ability to manage the positions through which I’ve migrated.
Most, but not all, of what I’m doing here is voice-activated and when it hurts I stop.
Using the mouse & keyboard quickly leads to searing tendinitis pain on either arm; within minutes.
During my last year of work I exclusively used my foot on the mouse. (can’t do that anymore).
There is a voice call out protocol for mousing, but it is extremely limiting.
There is also a fairly expensive head mounted optical mouse, but many other things have to happen with the hands … , handling anything, such as telephones, collating paperwork, all that fussy stuff is a problem: true hands-off is not coming to fruition for me as a coping skill set, and that’s what I need.
I still have some power.
‘Can still occasionally pick up heavy things or climb a little bit, but only in total isolation in terms of what comes days before and after.
I ski tour once or twice a week but I never use poles.
Sometimes just a series of things, simple chores, for instance if I wash the dishes or pick up around the house, seeing a chore through to completion, that might blow me up for a day or two or more.
I cannot drive more than an hour without both arms becoming fried.
Last year, I was watching a buddy’s kids for a few hours, doling out money for their monopoly game and that blew me up for two weeks.
These things can’t occur on a daily basis.
Not much can.
Help me think of a job I can do taking all this into consideration.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:43pm PT
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Gay phone sex???
You always were kind-of-a ramrod magnet. Just use an alias.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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Lisa nixt the male prostitute option, gay, bi, post op, remote or otherwise....
But you knew that.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:49pm PT
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Gezz, Roy what can I say....at least I can relate. Been through the pain of the body with Dan. If I can help at all shout out Bro. If you need medical equipment or any kind of medical stuff please email. It would be great to just help out. That's all. Sometimes ya just wonder about the trip on this planet. Maybe it's more about "after" ....Lynnie
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 18, 2009 - 08:49pm PT
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Will ponder squeezing this trip in, but a donation to da man is forthcoming regardless. Cheers to the other Stonemasters for putting on this noble event.
All the best, Roy.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 18, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
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Thanks Mimi, Russ, Lynne et Al.
I really can't sit here and respond vigorously to ideas and questions.
My arms are already pretty fried today from getting this thing off the ground. I've undertaken these few detailed responses, in an elective sense, to a certain degree, because I think people deserve some detail from me in terms of what's going on with me and in light of what's being asked ... and of course I wish to express my gratitude.
If you have any suggestions please know that I'm reading them, but I may not be fielding thoughtful responses on a routine basis.
Cheers,
Roy
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Feb 18, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
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Roy,
like many here, I had no idea you were in trouble. What can the docs do to help you? And the biggy; what are we talking re: dollars on this? I know talking $'s can be uneasy for some, but it's easier to get your mind around a problem if you know what it is. Hope that asking this isn't to ackward.
Doug
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Feb 18, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
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the show sounds cool, but i'm stuck up here until june.
11.5? bummer, dude. at least they ain't taken yer skis yet!
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Feb 18, 2009 - 09:51pm PT
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Kerwin, get ye asz down here for this one!! It's a drive back home and what a chance to see a bunch of knuckleheads... all at once. Would be gooood to see you again! And schit yo get to help out the Roy Boy! See ya there!
Peace
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Feb 18, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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Hey Tar-
We have never met. Jusy want to say as a wanker, when I first jumped into the Taco pool with my first thread, your's was one of the posts that helped me feel comfortable swimming amongst the choss and stellar rock that makes up the pool. Your threads always draw my attention. Thanks in so many ways.
I'm there! Looks like JT is already pretty booked up.
Good on all for getting this going!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 18, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Okay Flanders,
I will go straight at that:
$25,000 well-documented, over the last four years, out-of-pocket, paid upfront to practitioners.
(Yes I have had throughout this ordeal and currently maintain health insurance.)
Plenty more cash, paid out-of-pocket, not so well documented, during the previous seven years.
Well over three times the amount noted above currently in what I would call cash debt, so approaching $90,000 in current burden, due to the experience in total: medical bills, opportunity costs of sifting through different work, retraining for work, and now flat out being out of work.
All falls into a home equity loan as a debt consolidation plan after these amounts cycle through temporary low interest revolving credit. We own our home free and clear, which is huge, but we can't continue to leverage it any further.
The medical establishment, either mainstream or alternative can do nothing for me. Lisa and I will extend ourselves no further in seeking a solution.
I absolutely have to find a way through this which addresses and incorporates my condition as is.
Thanks for asking the obvious,
No problem,
Cheers,
Roy
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 18, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
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Wow, had no idea, and would never have guessed.
Sounds like you need someform of sales / support / remote teaching position you can do with a headset and minimal keyboard / mouse requirements. Not sure what the state of haptic devices currently is, but there are touch screens and devices like Microsoft's 'Surface' that are, or will soon be, available. I know there are outfits that hire folks in rural areas to [url="http://share.skype.com/sites/us/2008/11/wyoming_town_goes_big_skype.html" target="new"]teach English in Asian countries like Korea[/url] - maybe one of them...
Also, can you characterize this condition any further? Is this just totally unfathomable? Some known condition / syndrome along the lines of what Jello is battling? Or, last, something brought on by climbing / work?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 18, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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Got it Roy, I think. Life and all it's exigency has come together to make life havoc.
People may not agree with this and that's ok. But what I have learned over my past year of loss is this. Unpremeditated acts of love and caring beautifully and simply carry the person dying from hurt, loss or grief (whether it be from sickness, death, finances or whatEVER) across the river to recovery. It really is that simple.
We need to think about how to practically help our sista's and bro's....but we also need to give loving acts of charity that keep them in the arms of hope and peace and joy. Tonight and always Lynnie is watching your backs like Yo did mine. :))
This is what you Dudettes and Dudes did for me to make me whole again. Still working on it, but it be happenin'. Peace lrl
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2009 - 11:35pm PT
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Great to see the ST community rallying so quickly.
As to Russ' question regarding the gear/memorabilia auction. If you have an idea for an auction item, drop me an email, but don't send me anything other than the email at this time. I'll make a list of the stuff that will be auctioned and post it up later.
Rick
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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Joseph Healy,
You asked: can I characterize my condition any better?
OK, understanding that you read carefully what I said above.
I have two systems which fail me bilaterally.
Since the early 90s and through about 1996, I suffered chronic lateral tendinitis, both arms.
Throughout that time, I knocked off climbing to about one day a week tops, sometimes lowering the intensity to about 5.6.
Yes I worked with my hands. I did production and custom sewing and worked very very long hours. No doubt stressed my adrenals to the limit. This can exacerbate inflammation cycles.
About 1997 I had experienced remission of the tendinitis for six months. During that summer on one particular day, having migrated from sewing to a physical line of work requiring less persistent use of small muscle groups, namely working in theater, I had rapid onset of bilateral muscle failure in the medial muscle bellies of the forearm.
Something like an episode of compartment syndrome. But I have definitively been diagnosed as not troubled with compartment syndrome. Talking about what I’ve tried and who I’ve seen, I can handle that in another post. It’s all set out in a Word document.
From that day forward of experiencing that pump and stiff fatigue in the forearm, up until present I have essentially been pumped and sore throughout that region. Any clutching, grabbing, scrubbing, sorting or fiddling brings about fatigue which spreads from that area all away through to the end of the wrist.
It feels like a weariness of the tissues, a suffocation if you will. Not so much weakness, but a nasty fatigue, and if activity persists, the entire area including the tendons feels overwrought.
Fine motor skill activities bring this on quite easily.
In contrast, during this last 11 years, as I had lowered my climbing output to one day a week largely consisting of fourth class, with 5.6 being my limit until just a few years ago, and adding to this the fact that I’ve been pushed out of work requiring repetitive use, and now out of work altogether, some of my power has returned.
So imagine this: if I rest for one week solid, I might be able to lead one or two pitches of 5.9, but I can get pretty pumped out sorting the gear for the lead, because this is a fine motor skill work involved in sorting the gear. The lead isn't so much a problem, because larger muscle groups are involved in a more dominant fashion.
But I can't perform too many of those leads.
On the other side of the arm, I now have latent and quite easily provoked bilateral, sharp, persistent tendinitis. What most easily brings that to the fore is anything repetitive; especially mouse keyboard or holding the steering wheel of a car.
Mousing hits the classic tennis elbow area.
Holding the steering wheel of a car causes severe fatigue in the tendons more on the top of the arm, those in the region of the brachio radialis.
To do this post I am using voice-activated software.
A lot of the editing can be done through voice, but sometimes if I want to position the mouse and call for a click, as I often do, I have to push the mouse across the table as though it were a pack of cigarettes and then make the call for "mouse click".
Just doing that action of pushing the mouse around, but not clicking it and calling out a click, that can totally fry my tendons. As they are right now.
Not sure what you can do with that; I'm still a lot stronger than a lot of the doctors I talk to!
I just can't use it very often...
I mean, there's no way they can do a V1 plus highball and I can, as long as it's a carefully isolated event.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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Tar, thanks for that rundown, never heard of anything like it - sounds way out there from carpal tunnel which is fairly common in my business. Is this something that expresses autoimmune antibodies of any type? I would guess, on just hearing your plight, that it likely would in some big way. Don't know whether you done those blood tests and seen a rheumatologist or not (I'm guessing you probably have). I'm sure not a doc, but the only other things that pop off the top of my head are Lyme's and Cipro-induced tendon tearing. Sounds like you're at the end of the 'why' of it, though, and trying to move on to 'what now' - can't blame you, past a point you're left with dealing with it.
Bummer to hear all this, I had no idea when I saw you down at Snow Creek and never would have guessed. My heart goes out to you; I'm nursing and rationing through the last of what's left of my shoulders. Like I said, will try to make it down and would love to help out here in PDX if the show does hit the road.
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Double D
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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Roy, reading about your condition makes me appreciate your posts and positive contributions all the more.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 12:45am PT
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I've seen three neurologists board certified in EMG studies.
2000, 2004, 2008. They all sort of disagree on findings; but essentially I present no nervy, tingling, loss of sensation type stuff.
I spent the last year working with a doctor in internal medicine who specializes in systemic issues related to hormonal dysfunction and toxicity. He's ruling out things like Lyme disease, lupus, yet does note that I have impaired adrenals.
I underwent a lot of deep level blood work with this doctor. Life extension type stuff; very cool for finding out how you are aging. Essentially looking at all the nutritional constituents in the body and then examining various chemical processes.
I underwent a year-long program of various nutritional therapies to rebuild the stomach lining so that the immune system was functioning properly, elevate my triglycerides to mobilize toxins, bring protein synthesis back in line, support various energy cycles within the body such as the cytochrome system and Krebs cycles and on and on and so forth.
No results.
Mercury toxicity can lead to problems with the hands; but most people afflicted with this present with far greater systemic issues than I do.
I tried a series of glutathione and vitamin C IV's.
A leading nutritional researcher suggested this would flood my system with electrons, which is essentially an antioxidant therapy. Of course controversial, but some people with Parkinson's and multiple sclerosis respond.
The last doctor I saw, as directed by the last neurologist I saw, was a vascular surgeon, sort of poking around for thoracic outlet syndrome, which they already know I don't have, and looked into my complaints of cold extremities which I have in spades, and nevertheless just came up with nothing.
I tried a heart drug which lowers blood pressure in hopes that that might increase blood flow to the extremities; no dice.
I've been Rolfed twice; undergone probably 80 chiropractic adjustments, had tons of deep tissue work.
The leading Sports Medicine Center here in town, and remember this is Boulder, home of the well-heeled athlete and all kinds of resources to support them, they just referred me to a pain specialist who wanted to put cortisone in my neck.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Rustys Bar and Grille, Bishop
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Feb 19, 2009 - 12:47am PT
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good luck to you Roy
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hashbro
Trad climber
Mental Physics........
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Feb 19, 2009 - 01:06am PT
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Being the humblest of the humble, and most giving of the generous, it's time we give back (as a community) to zen master Roy in his time of need.
And plus we get to sweat palms over Dean's compilation of the best images of some of the best cragsman in the west.
This is an event not to miss.
Here's to Roy, the Stonemasters and of course the crags.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Feb 19, 2009 - 01:36am PT
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OK so just a thought.
Is there a Tacoland cyber jockey out there who could take the raw material of the JT benefit add in a healthy dose of Tarbuster photo-artistry and maybe a bunch of video vignettes of his pardners tellin' stories and a sayin' Howdy Roy. That should be a truly entertaining product you could burn to disc and send on the road easily. Then sell copies of the disc at the shows and/or online.
Roy is the greatest sort of folk you would ever want to share time with. And he has shared time with a hoard of the greatest sort of folk. That is an interesting story about one of the good guys. You know the ones wearing the white stetsons.
It would be fabulous to see this effort really benefit Mr Roy as this has been a real ordeal for him.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 19, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Hyoh Mon!
I'll be in Josh the week before that, but my work calendar rules out that event, kids with special needs need me when they need me! Suffice to say, the check is in the mail, after the 28th, anyway. I hope this means you can come to Vedauwoo in August and stand up to our abuse of your boney self, we may be able to come up with a transportation grant, if need be....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:32am PT
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Tar, I have to admit upfront that I fall into the strongly skeptical category on all the life extension / gastro-oriented stuff for general purposes and life 'improvement', mainly because I believe the molecular biochemistry associated with the myriad physiological systems and interactions is poorly understood and are way too subtle and complex for the sorts of conclusions I've seen proffered under those guises. Hormonal issues, though, particularly hypothyroid, are a different matter, but it sounds like that all checked out as well.
That said, I also think finding definitive answers to uncommon, difficult-to-diagnose neuro-muscular problems from 'normal' docs and even specialists is no less challenging - somewhat for the same reasons. And even if you were expressing a lot of autoimmune-related antibodies, treatment would still probably not be a simple or straightforward affair either. In the end there really aren't many 'House' type docs around.
If I were going to do the alt.med / antioxidant thing I'd probably be more inclined to get Chinese on it than anything else - accupuncture and flooding myself with stuff like Zyflamend and Turmericforce. Sounds, though, like you've been through the various mills a couple of times already.
One last thought, not sure if Kenny Duncan follows ST or not, and of course he's an ortho guy, but maybe he or one of the other climbing docs might at least have some thoughts or ideas on any other avenues / people other folks haven't considered yet.
Again, all the best to you in your journey with all this - it must be somewhat maddening to not have a clear bead on the problem.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:26am PT
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Things are funky today;....our economy took a big dump and lots of not so good things are kicking our butts today and we have to face challenges and hardships that we have not seen before. But with all the sheit, comes positive things too;....people are starting to think about sharing more, not being so wasteful, and being thankful for what we DO have. Money is way tight, and the future is a big scary mystery.....but we do have each other, and we do have the security of knowing that we are all in this mess together;.....so it's time to get over ourselves, carpool to the crags, share our homes, rides, gear, food, lives, hearts, beer, and pretty much everything......sharing always has been, and always will be ....good for the person who shares and the person who we share with.....I am more than happy to open my home to Bullwinkle ( Who actually lived here for a bunch of years, so I'm sure he'll feel right at home....), and to Roy who I've known and respected as a friend and fellow cragsman for over 30 years....and to the climbing community, who has looked after me so kindly and treated me in a most excellent way for 37 years. My house is your house.....so please join in , see old friends, meet new friends, share with Roy Boy, and see some fabulous images of The Stonemasters by master photographer Dean Fidelman.....should be quite an evening......
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Feb 19, 2009 - 09:35am PT
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Yer quite the guy Todd....it is a cool community, that of the climbers and hoping that this can all come together to help out Roy and Lisa when they need a bit of support. See ya there!
Peace
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Feb 19, 2009 - 10:36am PT
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Wish I could attend, or contribute monetarily, but all I have to give now are positive vibes. Sending 'em...
All the best to you TAR. jefe
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:02am PT
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Joseph,
Yes I have tried Chinese medicine and acupuncture, eaten bucket loads of Zyflammend, turmeric, a thumb-size wad of ginger daily, and yes C-reactive protein, erythrocyte sedimentation rate, immunoglobline all checked.
This is not a surgical issue.
One EMG study was interpreted to suggest ulnar nerve transposition, but a preponderance of opinions and re-tests emphatically said no.
I could check into MAYO and hand over more of my home than is advisable...I've already leveraged 50% of it's value.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:09am PT
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Tar,
I wasn't suggesting Kenny relative to a surgical solution, just that maybe he or other climbing docs might have some off-hand thoughts / ideas / people which may be on a different tack then you've already taken. But I definitely understand if you're pretty much done with that whole path - was just thinking out loud as I tend to do when confronted with something this strange and anomolous as this. Simply never heard of such a thing. Sorry to belabor the whole business...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:14am PT
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It's not Myasthenia Gravis...
Talked to a Dr who does trigger point injection therapy (magnesium & lidocain I think) he said forget it; and also said this thing is so intransigent for so long that it doesn't fit repetitive strain syndromes.
Belabor on ... its constructive & appreciated!
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:17am PT
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You need to drink some ghee with gold and silver in it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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Well, in that case - yeah, it's all strange in that it's sounds fairly tenacious and yet oddly inconsistent and appears as though you have some sort of 'recovery' period after which you can climb or do other activities (however briefly). This has to be triangulated somehow by biochemical, neurological, and muscular attributes / presentation. Seems like various scans, xrays, chiro, accupuncture, and workups have more or less ruled out [purely mechanical] neurological and muscular related problems.
On the biochemical front you mentioned a whole plethora of various blood workups over time, I would think if this were a chemistry issue of some sort then your [collective] antibody, inflammation marker, and hormonal profiles might provide about the best clues to what might be going on - you don't specifically address antibody workups. From your forearm symptom description it sounds more to be some sort of cascading chemistry failure that the muscles can't easily recover from as opposed to something mechanical. I would guess such a cascade could easily affect both muscles and nerves relative to both pain and fatigue. In general, if it were a mechanical neurological or muscular problem I wouldn't think you'd have the failure modality or recovery capability you talk about.
A real mystery - someone must have seen this phenom before - but it doesn't sound like it's been familar to anyone you've seen. I agree it's probably not the best idea to go all-in on the house to do endless diagnostic expeditions, but still, there has to be someone somewhere who has a handle on this sort of thing.
And this is isolated between your hands and elbow or shoulder and doesn't present anywhere else that you can recognize?
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
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Roy, I'm with you in spirit and hope to be at this important/exciting event in the flesh, if I'm up to travelling at that time. In either case, look for a check in the mail in the next few days.
You are the Supertopo Champion...THANK YOU!!!
-Jeff
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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Thanks for the backup Jeff!
Joseph,
I get what you are suggesting with the cascading scenario.
From a layman's perspective, it's not too hard to get the mind wrapped around the concept that given some sort of low-grade systemic problem, the points in the body that had historically taken the biggest hit, (a physiologic low point if you will), and which then require the most resources in terms of maintenance, might be given to a preponderance of recurring symptoms.
Yes, this condition surely seems to be highly localized and bilateral to boot; so you see overall fitness hasn't taken a big hit and my legs are good to go. No problems with the biceps or shoulders either. Sometimes it seems like problems with hamstring tendons and hip flexors get naggingly stubborn and don't want to go away, but never in concert with this weird and persistent muscular fatigue.
The biggest clue relating to concurrent symptoms or systems, really is that I have extreme issues with cold. I absolutely cannot go out in the winter without heat packs in boots and gloves; always with double boots and/or full overboots. I must have 5 layers covering my crotch, and a wind stopper baklava plus a neoprene face cover for my nose, goggles over my eyes to protect all exposed facial skin.
No I do not present with white finger or Raynaud's syndrome.
Again, it is reported that heavy metal toxicity and particularly Mercury will produce cold extremities and I have heard secondhand accounts of people with this that had real problems with hands.
I did undergo a course of DMSA, but oral, as opposed to intravenous, in hopes of chelating heavy metals. I've also undergone a number of other protocols involving glutathione, selenium, and combinations of amino acids to bind heavy metals for transport, yet, this as you said is somewhat iffy nutritionally based metabolic tinkering.
As far as hormone therapy goes: I've done rounds of DHEA, testosterone, cortisol, pregnenalone.
I'd be happy to start throwing up blood work.
(I may not know how to ID antibody profiles)
Wanna take a look?
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Feb 19, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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I'm there.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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So your legs / hip get these same symptoms as your forearms - or is it different?
Also, when you talk about being able to get to a place where you can do a couple of pitches of 5.9, is that deterministic, as in you alter some behavior and that delivers a predictable change in your condition; or is it more of a random remissive event that, if and when one happens, you can get out and do that level of climbing?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Thank you for staying with me on this Joseph...
Per the legs: I'm saying I might have persistent tendon problems there, but it's not expressed with the bizarre muscular fatigue and nowhere near as limiting. I can walk and use my legs every day; not so with my hands and forearms.
The second question is just a tad unclear.
To a certain degree it's a little of both.
I know that if I want to do something like a pitch of 5.9, I have to prepare for this event by forgoing most other use of the hands and arms for a number of days prior. So yes, to some degree it is deterministic, I have a shot at it. This is a matter of degree however; when most people think of using their hands to pick things up around the house or get involved in some small project or type something up, they don't give it a second thought. I can get knocked out by doing such things, and the condition can get magnified into something very protracted, say on the order of several weeks recovery.
So what makes this not deterministic, is that I'm very poor at making plans. Things can go bad very easily.
Also for perspective, what I call recovery, is not what you would call recovery. I never have full and complete recovery. The muscles in my forearms hurt all the time, even upon waking. The tendons begin to hurt as soon as I engage in those activities which are predictably going to bother them. So any recovery I experience is quite thin and never complete.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2009 - 06:00pm PT
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What with all this collective thought from all over, wouldn't it be great if an effective treatment were found? Let's hope.
Great response so far on the auction. There will be some treasures there, for sure.
Rick
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reddirt
climber
Elevation 285 ft
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Feb 19, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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total random shot in the dark unsolicited idea from layperson:
Guillain-Barré Syndrome?
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rbolton
Social climber
The home for...
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Feb 19, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
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A chance to party with 'bidus AND wreck Todd's house again? I'm SO in.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2009 - 06:43pm PT
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Tar, thanks for the clarification. I understand any 'recovery' is thin - but it also sounds like it isn't a case where it only goes in one direction - as in down - sometimes it bumps back up even if only quasi-deterministically. That by itself probably eliminates a broad swath of disorders which continually rachet down on you, with any break being characterized as more or less randomly non-deterministic 'remissions' in an otherwise progressive course of disease.
So, marching on, sounds as though the fatigue is muscular and the pain is tendons, any joint / cartilage / spurs / bad arthritis involved? Again, sounds more autoimmune/metabolic than mechanical or neurological - though clearly there is no shortage of chem states that can have significant neurological impact. The heavy metals thing, though, sounds like a real reach unless you know of a specific exposure event and were tested as having a significantly above normal load of one or more of them.
I'm also guessing if you had any serious adrenal or thyroid issues they'd have been addressed long ago in a very straightfoward manner as they typically aren't rocket science to either diagnose or treat. It all keeps bringing me back to being curious about your antibody and inflammation marker profiles / workups and specifically what antibodies and markers you were tested for.
EDIT: Reddirt - hey girl! Not a bad call as GBS has a few different presentations. I had asthmatic climbing partner who took the '76 flu shot and got GBS - a couple of days after the shot he woke up with no ankles and hands, next morning no knees and elbows, no shoulders or hips on the third, and was in an iron lung totally paralyzed by the sixth day. He spent a year in it and another year slowly coming back, but with much permanent muscle loss. GBS usually displays a rapid onset and lower body involvement, but the extent and course can vary wildly. GBS is another case where I would think antibodies would tend to point in that direction.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 19, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
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Tarbuster
Antibody profiles would be
Anti-Nuclear antibody
Anti-SSB
Anti-SSA
Anti-Ro
Anti J0-1
Anti DS-DNA (DS=double stranded)
Anti-Centromere antibodies
I know you have seen 3 neurologists, have you seen a Rheumatologist?
Best
Ezra Ellis, MD
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
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Ezra! Someone who actually knows what the hell they're talking about - thanks for jumping in here...
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reddirt
climber
Elevation 285 ft
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Feb 19, 2009 - 06:59pm PT
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Rheum... a good suggestion.
Know that a good rheum is difficult to find... we went thru 3 different ones recently before settling on the 4th at Hopkins. They seemed wildly different in competence. After a year & half, I finally have my climbing partner back, almost.
BTW, the Hopkins guy said that the plurality of his pts do not have a definitive diagnosis & are treated symptomatically.
Hang in there & keep us all posted! Sending you the best vibes!!
(edit: HealyJe! Hope all is well & our paths cross again : )
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reddirt
climber
Elevation 285 ft
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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If by some long chance it turns out to be GBS, just know that there's a 30 yr veteran Exum guide out there who had it & still (can) guide... : )
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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Roy and Joseph,
Thank you for providing these details on the symptoms.
I wish I was an MD like Ezra and could help with the diagnosis.
I can offer one positive story. My climbing partner developed severe pain in his knees and ankle/heels, which stopped him from climbing, and he could barely work. He went to several doctors; none could diagnose it. Eventually, he and his girlfriend started looking around on the web and were able to make the diagnosis themselves: Psoriatic Arthritis.
http://arthritis.webmd.com/psoriatic-arthritis/psoriatic-arthritis
His doctors hadn't taken a proper history and didn't realize that he had psoriasis since he was a kid.
There some pretty effective (though expensive) drugs which clear up the symptoms by suppressing this autoimmune problem. He's back climbing strong again.
I doubt this is your diagnosis, since it sounds like the problem is more in your arms than leg joints. But on the off chance you have psoriasis, of course you should check it out (the page also suggests the joint symptoms can in some cases show up before the skin symptoms). Keep working on the diagnosis - finding someone with the right knowledge is key, and not easy.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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Can't be Guillan Barre Syndrome
He'd be dead by now, it is an acute process.
Could be the chronic form of it CIDP Chronic inflammatory Demyelinating polyneuropathy, although doesn't sound likely. Any neurologist worth a S*&T would figure that out.
I am really at a loss to explain the symptoms. Thought about Lou Gherigs or something (aka amyotrophic lateral sclerosis), again any half competent neurologist would determine that one. Thought about Multiple sclerosis or even Vitamin B12 deficiency. Sounds like they have been ruled out.
I'm really not competent to diagnose in this area, would definately see a rheumatologist if you haven't already.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:25pm PT
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I haven't seen a rheumatologist recently.
Very early on, when the tendons were persistent problem, I did.
Frankly, this is on my shortlist, next in line when I feel like throwing some more money at it. Ricky recommended a good one here in town who his wife uses.
A lot of doctors and practitioners have looked at my films; there really is not any osteoarthritis to speak of, grade one at most.
Ezra,
Thanks for the clarification on the antibody numbers I don't believe I have them.
Anybody have any experience with a physical therapy modality known as MAT?
I just had a gracious super topo member pledge to pay for an initial session and spent the last 45 minutes on telephone with the practitioner.
Lou Gehrig's and multiple sclerosis, pretty well ruled out.
I have taken numerous vitamin B-12 shots, no results.
No psoriasis, thanks Clint.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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Tar.
Have you had a muscle biopsy?
I'd go to University of Colorado Department of rheumatology before I went to Mayo.
Did you see neurologists at Univ of colorado?
'bout all i have to offer.
Best
-e
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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Aren't friends great? And there are no better climbing friends than climbing friends. :)
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:47pm PT
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Yeah I'd listen to Ezra.
He's on to something here.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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Ezra,
I was set up to see a neurologist at the CU Health Sciences Center in South East Denver, where if deemed necessary, a muscle biopsy would be performed.
I was sent instead to have nerve conduction studies done by a neurologist who had specific experience with continuous muscle fiber activity, or stiff man syndrome, which was one of the chief cluster of concerns, and as those were ruled out, the idea of a biopsy was shelved.
Also my understanding was that they don't do a local biopsy, like for me in the arms to look at a local condition, but they typically take a "chunk' out of the leg in pursuit of isolating more generalized muscular issues, which I do not present.
Thanks for your ideas!
Maybe we can get this thing figured out and then all go to happy hour for a Ghee & silver & gold cocktail...
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:06pm PT
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Tarbuster,
You are correct. They usually do a large muscle group.
Only one last question. Have they ruled out Myasthenia Gravis (anti-acetyl choline receptor antibodies)?
I believe you said they had ruled that out.
Also have you tried prednisone, cyclosporine, or Rituxan (anti CD20, a B-cell marker) and if so, what were the results?
best, -e
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
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Yes I thought there might be issues with/effected by an acetylcholinesterase.
I think that's what they feed you to shut down the acetylcholine process as an aspect of muscle firing sequence.
But, again, Myasthenia just comes with too many other concurrent symptoms which I don't present, such as problems with the eyes and throat and neck: all kinds of bizarre unfortunate stuff like that...
And no, no uptake of those items which you just mentioned.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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Joseph was driving at something that is key I think,
Which is that this is a fairly static situation at this point and has been for a number of years.
Most of these other things continue to worsen, are degenerative, progressive.
I'm getting worse, but it's very very slow.
And I'm not really losing power, just the ability to apply it on a routine basis.
No distinct muscle atrophy.
Obviously, the muscles are not what they would be if I used them a lot.
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Double D
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
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Roy,
I may be completely out of line here, but shouldn't you address the (serious) cross-dressing issues first and then take it from there?
I'm just say'n...
(-;
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
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I have Peter Haan putting that to be- ...I mean sorting that one out.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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Yes I think it would be nice to turn over the rheumatologist card.
Yes it would be cool to see a hand surgeon here in town who John Sherman highly recommends.
Anyway with all this keep in mind that I retain excellent muscle tone, enjoy outstanding coordination, experience no shaking or anything strange...
We're essentially talking about an experience of chronic localized fatigue, in the muscles and tendons.
Lower arms only, but evenly bilateral.
(I'll also put this on my list: prednisone, cyclosporine, or Rituxan)
Thanks Ezra.
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
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Good luck Roy, sorry to hear you are not getting better.
Guilliam-Barre or any other peripheral neuropathy would have been ruled out during the NCS/EMG testing by the neurologist. Myasthenia gravis or other disorders of neuromuscular transmission was most likely ruled out by physical exam but could be tested with a repetitive nerve stimulation test.
A Rheumatologist or other practitioner with experience with autoimmune diseases may shed some light. I also remember you having frostbite of your hands, I treat fair amount of frostbite and long term many of my patients develop joint involvement, (some theorize it is freezing of synovial fluid), but x-rays would have shown joint changes.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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Hi Doug!
Thanks for stepping in with that bit of knowledge as a physical therapist.
Any chance you coming down off the hill to hang out with the old gang for this thing?
The frostbite surely affected my hands, and does provide some history as to why my hands are always cold, same with my feet, but just a little bit of exposure, not even chill blane, to face and crotch last couple of years has been met with no further recovery by my body... very strange.
As for the problem we are discussing, it seems it only involves my hands in so much as the muscles and tendons upstream in the forearm are so critical to the function of the hands.
I wouldn't say I have problems with my hands in performing daily tasks, if I were to speak of them in an isolated fashion. The joints in my fingers have never fully recovered from that frostbite it's true. But that's livable, and climbable up to about 5.10 plus or 5.11 minus, given the arms would provide necessary supporting role as they are intended.
The elbow and wrist joints were not subject to frostbite.
Now it's possible, that overtime, having somewhat compromised fingers has led to overcompensation in the muscles and tendons upstream. I have thought of that, but it seems conjecture at best.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 19, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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Tar,
prednisone, cyclosporine and rituxan all have serious side effects. Would only try them as a last resort, and only if an autoimmune cause is suspected (if any or some of the antibodies I listed were positive).
you beat me to the questions about vision and throat related to myasthenia.
Wish I could be of help, I am in adequate in this area.
Go to the BEST rheumatologist in Denver (probably at the university of Colorado med center), if you decide to go that route. Get references etc.
Best
-e
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
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Tar,
Can you double check all your blood work and see what if any antibody testing was done. I'd really throw in with getting a full go at the antibodies with an ace rheumatologist. As mentioned, a good one of those folks are used to working in the grey areas with the understanding there can be many, many different manifestations of autoimmune problems - a clearcut diagnosis is often the exception rather than the rule in their world.
Maybe post up on MP looking for one or again, give Kenny Duncan a shout up and Ft. Collins, he might know a good one as well. And Ezra's suggestion to nose around the UC Department of Rheumatology is a great one as well (I'd kick in for a visit to them as well as for your JT event...)
EDIT: Looks like they have both a great [url="http://www.uchsc.edu/rheum/" target="new"]Division of Rheumatology[/url] and a [url="http://www.uchsc.edu/sm/deptmed/clinimm/" target="new"]Division of Allergy and Clinical Immunology[/url].
One of their docs, David H. Collier, was Denver Mile-High Magazine's Top Doctor in Rheumatology as voted by physicians in Denver metropolitan area 2008. I just shot him an email roughly [anonymously and briefly] outlining the situation and asking him who he felt would be the person around there to see (if not him) if you did decide to take another stab at it all...
David H. Collier
Denver Health, University
777 Bannock St.
Denver 80204
303-436-6907
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
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I am much appreciating all of you putting your heads into this matter.
For the moment however, this thread needs pictures!
These from climbing 2004 photo annual, by Dean Fidelman:
(it might be some of these photos will show up April 25)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
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Thanks for the detail there Joseph.
And again I much appreciate the rigor on your part.
At the direct recommendation of my neurologist, after we looked at the latest nerve conduction studies, a vascular surgeon was what was recommended over a rheumatologist; and thought of as an outside guess to boot.
In fact I had two neurologists looking into the matter and both said so.
Given that my internist does have a special focus in metabolic issues, has patients with myasthenia gravis, a wide variety of intractable conditions and so forth ... and also that my neurologist heavily reviewed that material, it was agreed that the rheumatology angle had been well covered and would not be the next step.
Nevertheless, your point is well taken.
Get one by name and get a good one.
And thanks for your pledge to help with it too; I'll take you up on it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
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Tar,
You have to go with your instinct and with striated muscles I can understand why they'd say go vascular (resources in/waste out) after ruling out the metabolism, mechanical and neurological. But I'd probably part company with them on the idea that the Endocrinologists covered the rheumatology adequately in such a unique case. Personally, I'd want the Rheumatologists to rule out rheumatology before moving on to the vascular guys. And given the body of case history you have, I would think a rheumatologist would only have to review your files, order another panel of blood work, and then they'd be in a fair position to give you a some idea if that's an area of concern.
I'm good with whatever you decide, but I just can't stand the idea of you knott climbing - it's way too close to my own shoulder issues...
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 19, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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Well shucky darn--finally, a picture of Tarbuster his self!
Whopee!
We need more of those, Roy!!!!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
|
I follow that strategic logic Joseph.
(And the heartfelt part too)
Here's the latest blood work I have and I'm just not seeing specific antibody work-up as indicated by Ezra.
I've got more let's start here:
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
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Feb 19, 2009 - 10:48pm PT
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i haven’t yet met you, but surely know of you. imagine how floored i was that when i begged for help (i’m new to this venue) -- that the 3rd person to respond and truly help me out was... you.
that was oh so huge to me, especially as i wondered if this was 'a safe place for dogs'.
~~~
my sweetie had all manner of oddball symptoms, a few not unlike yours (a few). and the local heroes simply could not figure it out and blew us off in all manner of easy and useless diagnoses. in the end, she went to johns hopkins and found someone with the talent to actually figure it out for her (in her case, the earliest stages of MS).
having since read everything i can find on her condition, some variant of an autoimmune disease is screaming in my head -- but i have no special insights into this, or anything medical. i guess if you spend hours reading about nothing but hammers, everything quick comes to look like a nail.
perhaps the one thing our (my sweetie and i) experience can offer you, is to seek out the very best university med school teaching hospital you can find and go there. for there you will find people who are actually paid and actually given the time to do the reading and research to be on top of the state of the art in the art of their small piece of current medicine. most mds’ want this -- but few have opportunity to actually do it.
my sweetie (right here at my left shoulder) recommends hopkins (baltimore) and brigham and women's (boston).
~~~
all good things, mighty one. know that you are in our thoughts (and as a team we know intimately the frustration of not getting a useful diagnosis on the first 15 or 30 tries).
hang in there dude -- be as active an advocate for your own best possible care as you were an advocate for me and so many other souls in this venue.
i hope to make it to j-tree for the gig. i suspect i might. rest up so you can give me a much deserved dhope-slap for all of my endless verbosity -- such as on this post… dhope!
^,,^
(or michael, or pip, or dogboy, or ‘you moron noobie’ – pick one, i answer to all of them)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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Thank you Pip,
that's good stuff.
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john hansen
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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Roy, with all due respect and tounge firmly in cheek...
And with Russ's post in mind these are my top 10 ideas to find work with "no hands required" ...
1) In a "River Dance" Troop.
2) Soccer Coach
3) Ass Kicker
4) Grape crusher
5) Uni-cyclest
6) Roach exterminator
7) Shoe Model
8) Sponsered Hacky Sack player
9) Foot pump operator. Or...
10 A Senator from South Dakota.
Tarbuster, always have enjoyed your post's. Aloha
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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I'm probably going to have to work two jobs.
So it looks like modeling shoes while on a unicycle...
Good job thinking out of the box.
Don't discount it!
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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Dee Eee will be there;...it's party time....He is a big fan of the "Beadwagon.".....
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
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Tar,
A quick scan of your labs. The increased MCV can suggest B12/folate deficiency, Although you are not anemic. I can not give a qualified diagnosis over the internet, so don't take what I say as gospel and seek qualified medical advice.
The other major abnormality is the Increased IgE levels, can be seen primarily with allergies to any number of things or parasitic infection.
Tape worm infection can give B12 deficiency and increased MCV, although you don't have the increased eosionphils which goes with a parasitic infection.
Also anti intrinsic factor antibodies can give pernicious anemia and an increased MCV, but you obviously aren't anemic, so it doesn't fit for that.
I'm not seeing an obvious cause from the currently posted labs.
If you have done lots of foreign travel you might consider albendazol or derivative to kill any potential parasites, although the picture in no way fits for that, and it would be only as an extreme precautionary measure.
Seek qualified medical advice, as I am not (legal disclamer)
Best,
sigining out for the night and probably till 3pm tomorow,
going skiing!
-e
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 20, 2009 - 03:13am PT
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Tar,
If nothing else, rheumatology seems like about the only folks who haven't had a slice of you yet - take all the relatively current blood work and your case history to Collier or another one and see what they say. God knows what the hell it is, it's sure oddball enough. I'd say that if nothing else you've cleared out wide swaths of possibilities - seems like rheumatology, parasitology, and the niches are what's left to follow through with at this point (to be honest I have a hard time believing it's vascular with it that localized and bilateral, but of course I'm in no way qualified either) - please don't give up quite yet! You can see from Ezra's comments that it's likely you need someone really capable of sleuthing through the chemistry telltales.
Outa of here myself, monitoring Peregrines tomorrow...
P.S. Please edit out those images for Name / Date of Birth / Phone / etc...
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 20, 2009 - 09:22am PT
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Good idea, Rick.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 20, 2009 - 09:55am PT
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Healyj
Haven't totally excluded parasitic infection, there are encysted stages of parasites etc that won't give increased eos. Parasitic infection just seems unlikely.
Tar, folate deficiency can be seen in alcholics, or vegans; both to decreased oral intake of folate.
Best
-e
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 20, 2009 - 10:09am PT
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Dr. F is a thumbs up for Beadie.....
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Feb 20, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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Bump!
Love ya',
AF
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Feb 20, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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I just opened this thread. Not sure why I missed it.
I read calls for sushi to add to the party. Considering the reasons for this event I will give great consideration to making the journey with a trailer loaded with fish.
hmm....
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Feb 20, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
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Doug,
If you show up, Calendars for life. . .DF
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Feb 20, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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It's a six hour drive. It's two months out.
The first sushifest was 4/20/07 - I met Roy at this event. IT's suppose to be an annual event. How am I suppose to knott do it at this point? And where else would I do it if I'm to commit?
Where am I setting up my sushi bar?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
|
Go nature GO!!!
(Keep in mind that we'll likely see 100- 200 people at this thing)
Joseph said:
seems like rheumatology, parasitology, and the niches are what's left to follow through with at this point
Ezra said:
Haven't totally excluded parasitic infection, there are encysted stages of parasites etc that won't give increased eos. Parasitic infection just seems unlikely.
Tar, folate deficiency can be seen in alcholics, or vegans; both to decreased oral intake of folate.
Here’s a special GI panel, (parasitology)
I’ve also got some other numbers to post so we can probably isolate folate and many other items.
(names removed from previous blood work: thanks for the heads up Joseph)
I hope you two had a nice time with the skiing 'n the birds respectively.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 03:49pm PT
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Tapeworm - ouch. You should fix that, if you haven't already. Unless it's a false positive related to the other SIgA results at top.
(total hacker here, not an MD...)
I don't think it relates to the arm pain, though.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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>>>...prednisone, cyclosporine and rituxan all have serious side effects.
>>> Would only try them as a last resort.
Just a note: Prednisone and Cyclosporine are approximately the 15th and 50th most commonly
prescribed meds in the U.S .
Zillions of people take these. I've been on Prednisone for over 15years now.
It can absolutely be a wonder drug. I would list the conditions that its RX'd for, but its too long.
Its pretty cheap and a 21 day DosePak would certainly be worth a try at this point.
Your Doctor will think so too.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 20, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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Tar so your doc treated you for Tanea Solium already?
Albendazole would cover that 80-95% of the time.
Best,
your about out of ideas climbing doc.
-e
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local
Social climber
esprings
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Feb 20, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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I won't be able to make it, but do have a couple of custom (weren't they all?) Persona items handcrafted by Tar that I'd be willing to send out for auction if there was interest.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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Tapeworm is said to be a false positive; exposure to eggs only.
That's been disputed...
Ezra: negative on your last post.
Want to see any more numbers?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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All our eyes should be blurry after this...
I've also got adrenal stress index and hormone panels.
This is from August 2007
The organic acids portion has since been retested; and those numbers have been brought into line.
I figure the elevated homocysteine level (pg 2) indicates atheriosclerosis and explains cold extremities.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
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Billy a.k.a. Local,
That's very nice of you to suggest donating the items I made for you some years ago.
I'm sure there would be interest.
Please e-mail Rick Accomazzo concerning auction items.
raccomazzo@bmalaw.com
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 20, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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Tar,
You have had the million dollar work up.
Now I know why we're raising money.
The elevated homocytstine levels are certainly a slight risk for vascular clot formation and atherosclerosis. Your hypertrophied forearm muscles may have occluded vessels and are being starved of oxygen? Seems possible. Who knows.
The elevated homocystine explains your increased MCV as homocystine is involved in folate metabolism; and to think i had just assumed you were a hard drinking vegan climber....:)
I absolutely would do folate and B12 and supplementation, pregnant women take folate to prevent neural tube defects so it's very safe.
see this link for homocystine info
http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514270703/html/x305.html
The Tanea Solium antibodies may be a false positive, but tanea solium can encyst in either or both muscle and brain (although you haven't lost mental acuity as far as I can tell). Albendazole is cheep and not very toxic, I think. I would at least try it after all you have been through.
Still would see a rheumatologist, although probably less than 30% chance they would add any thing new, but they might.
The guy who posted on prednisone was correct, might be worth a try but definitately has toxicity including femoral head avascular necrosis as has happened to another climber on this forum. That being said prednisone can be life saving.
best
-e
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
|
All input on your part much appreciated Ezra.
You are helping to round out the picture and fill in some details.
All filed to my several notebooks.
Tonight I'll throw up the remaining adrenal and hormone numbers to complete the picture, such as it currently stands.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 20, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
|
Tarbuster
Mine eyes are not weary, but they need a beer. And sushi would
be nice too.
Have a great weekend!!!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
|
Your hypertrophied forearm muscles may have occluded vessels and are being starved of oxygen? Seems possible
That's what I imagine.
However, when the vascular surgeon listened in with Doppler, after I squeezed a handgrip for 5 or 10 minutes, he said blood flow was cranking right along.
Of course he was surprised that I could squeeze that grip like that, given my complaint, but it's all relative; I'm sure before the onset of this issue I could have continued for an hour.
As noted above, I have had quite a few B-12 injections and I have supplemented with folate + bioflavanoids.
[edit: how much folate? I'll check against my intake]
Of course I can post up my prodigious dietary supplementation program too...
Carried out for a solid year, except the hormones.
Some of it's still in place.
It all reeks of massive out-of-pocket expense.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 06:01pm PT
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
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All that hormone supplementation was expensive; about $250 a month. Pretty sure I only carried that out for two or three months, as it had no effect whatsoever on my general state of inflammation, and overall energy level.
My sister-in-law is a nutritionist and now secures for me, at cost, what I've retained of the above program, which is a good deal less than half of it in terms of intake volume.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 20, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
|
Tar,
In terms of data supported supplementation, Folate and B12 seem the most reasonable. Many multivitaimns have folate and are cheep. Good old fashioned Brewer's yeast is cheep, although it tastes like shite, but is actually good on top of popcorn. Brewer's yeast has B12 but not folate, I believe.
Maybe it's microvascular effects that are happening to your fore arms? That wouldn't be detected with doppler, I think.
There is no surgery for most microvascular situations, as far as I know.
You could always try a Statin ie simvastatin or lovestatin (zocor etc). Statins can maybe (and that's a big maybe) reverse microvascular atherosclerosis and decrease inflamation, at the least statins stop further atherosclerosis. Statins have known liver and muscle toxicities, so you'd have to watch for those effects, as any half competetnt physician would.
There are generic statins now, so reasonably cost effective treatment.
Ever tried a long acting blood vessel dialator, like cialis? Would help with any potential impotence problems and might make the wife happier...:)
Cialis Might help, seem to remember you had already tried vasodilators. Cialis of course has side effects too.
Best
-e
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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Feb 20, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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100-200, eh? I'm doing a party tomorrow for 108 so I'm warming up ;-).
Bro... I'm KNOTT sure how KNOTT do this... to be a part of this.
oh... and if Roy personally asks me to load my truck full of fish and head over then I'll be there 928-699-0663... just in case ;-)
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spectreman
Trad climber
CO
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Feb 20, 2009 - 07:25pm PT
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There is a treatment for chronic tendinosis/fibrosis problems called ASTYM. The treatment is based on research out of Ball State University in Indiana. The very basic theory is that if the muscle/tendon complex has become fibrosed, from any number of reasons, you have poor contractility, poor vascularization of the fibrosed areas, hypoxic tissues (lack of blood supply) and pain. The treatment is designed to cause a very low-grade inflammatory response in the involved tissues using special tools. The body reacts to the stimulus and will infiltrate the area with macrophages and other inflammatory agents that will effectively "eat up" the damaged scar and fibrotic tissues. The stimulus must be dosed or the reaction will be severe so it usually takes 6-12 sessions to treat an involved area. I use this treatment clinically as a physical therapist and I have been extremely happy with the outcomes. We can effectively treat problems that have historically been extremely resistant to conservative, non-invasive methods. The ASTYM orginazation does ongoing research and the clinical effectiveness is well documented with outcome studies. Something to consider.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
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Yes, Specter Man,
I have your e-mail concerning ASTYM: thank you and I began to look into it...
(and hope you received my reply as well)
I also have a device in hand, called SCENAR, which incorporates a very detailed electromagnetic diagnostic and therapeutic regime. Invented by the Russians, the manuals are a bit difficult to comprehend due to the translation.
It seems to be connected with this outfit:
http://www.senergy.us/
Also have you heard about a manual therapeutic modality known as MAT?
(My guess is it's not as clinically documented as ASTYM, but a session has been contributed)
Yes Ezra,
I tried a two-week course of Procardia XL, which dilates the arterioles. I got nothing from it; either relief in the arms or relief from cold extremities. Yes the microvascular level; I can also easily imagine that and have thought as much...
I supplemented consistently, for a year, with 800mcg folic acid & 500 mcg B12 per day.
Now I am down around 400/250 respectively.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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Feb 20, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
|
Randy Vogel has logged in as supporting Roy the boyfriend.....he will be there,......as one of the Orange County Yuppie representations.....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
|
Hi Randy,
I see that you're sort of tied up at the belay there, but say, can you spare a brother a dime?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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Feb 20, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 20, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
|
Tar,
Cialis works on a totally different mechanism than procardia, I think they have been experimenting with it at high altitude for hace and hape, very interesting stuff. I'm not expert in that area, but might be worth a try after you have tried other stuff.
best
-e
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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Feb 20, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
|
It's an open invite;...so you know who will probably be there.......(Hope this won't scare anyone away.....)...His head looks big, doesn't it?.....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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Feb 20, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
|
Start poppin' the cialis;...then not only won't you be able to use your arms or hands, but you will have to contact your physician if you have an erection lasting more than 5 hours.......(maybe the nurses can help you with that situation too......)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
|
Thanks for the clarification & importatant distiction between the two drugs Ezra.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 10:49pm PT
|
almost done with the numbers...
from August 2007
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
|
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Feb 20, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
|
you're killing me tar, this is like a torturing board exam.
I'm REALLY not an endocrine expert, although I theroretically am qualified to interpret the shite. I have absolutely no frigging idea how to deal with burned out adrenals, although it can be a very serious problem and replacment of Cortisol, aldosterone and testosterone may be necessary. Acute adrenal failure can be fatal, as you are already aware (your situation sounds more chronic). Seek qualified medical advice, as I am not qualified in this area.
DHEA is supposedly a testosterone precursor and available at any health store, you mentioned you had already tried it.
Out for the night (my head hurts after the adrenal axis crap).
-e
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 20, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
|
Tar,
One last thought,
Long term prednisone use causes adrenal suppression, rapid with-drawl of high prednisone doses can be fatal (hypotension (low blood pressure) among other things), make sure you taper slowly if you ever use the stuff (as any one should). Particularly with your poor adrenal function to begin with this would be even more crucial.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Feb 20, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
|
Having to work hard for the living lately, I am way behind on my lovely posts :D
Have not read this thread in depth except it is for the
TARBUSTER Dude. One of the best and significantly unique, great and Talented humans on this planet....as well as caring for humans that need it ..... like yo at the last J. Reunion.
So, Mr. TB, Yo Mon, we will be there for you (if the creek don't rise) and you know if our business can help at all, whatever you need is there for you... medical supplies, equipment or pharmacy IV infusion and sterile compounding. Just let us know.
Peace,Joy and Respect to all around the Great Campfire. Lynne
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 20, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
|
Just getting your eyeballs on this is great Ezra.
I mean, it's ostensibly a forum where we seek to enjoy ourselves.
So you are taking in a lot and adding quite a bit here, especially given the venue.
Thanks a whole bunch for your contribution.
Also, it's possible other MD's will be looking in on it.
Healyje has started a thread to direct them here if they happen to wander by this forum.
(Cheers Lynne!!!)
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
|
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Feb 20, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
|
Tar,
I have really enjoyed working through this. I like a good intellectual challenge, which is why I went in to medicine (also to help others, although the system doesn't seem set up to do that in this country).
My earlier statement may have been incomplete about microvascular surgery. It's done all the time, particularly in hands. I have never heard about in the fore arms. Most vascular surgeons use doppler flow to justify digging up a limb for revascularization (your flows were good).
Although because it has affected you ability to work you might find some one who would try surgery, but I would exhaust the conservative non surgical route first.
best,
if you have any questions that you don't want to broadcast to the planet
ezraellis@hotmail.com (my supertopo e-mail may be wrong.)
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Feb 21, 2009 - 12:11am PT
|
I sure would love to be there to be part of this, but I'm not sure I can change my flight to make it possible. I'll be on the eastside climbing with my brother, and am scheduled to leave the 25th. Man...if there was some way to pull this off, it sounds like a great event to be part of, and very fun to be supportive of one of the most positive guys on this forum. Must get creative...must get creative...
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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Feb 21, 2009 - 12:19am PT
|
Roy called... he begged. It was embarrassing but I caved ;-)
I'm bringing fish... and a lot of it.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Feb 21, 2009 - 12:22am PT
|
Nature, let us know what nights and we will 'send'. :D Lynne
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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|
Feb 21, 2009 - 01:22am PT
|
Say Roy, if I can help with those translations, I have a fleeting knowledge of the Russian language, and a pretend knowledge of the russian mind, I could maybe help keep the terminals from being crossed, or something.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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Feb 21, 2009 - 01:53am PT
|
I'm ready to party....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Feb 21, 2009 - 01:56am PT
|
No wonder (land) at least you have a smile on ya unlike.....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Feb 21, 2009 - 01:56am PT
|
No wonder (land) at least you have a smile on ya unlike.....
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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Feb 21, 2009 - 02:09am PT
|
Todd... Roy gave me your number. I'll call you Sunday (928 area code).
look.... the... fsck... out!
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 21, 2009 - 02:13am PT
|
Yes, Mussy has an average sized largess head. Ha!
I like this pic of Tucker. So cheery! Good days.
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WBraun
climber
|
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Feb 21, 2009 - 02:18am PT
|
The real question is.
Who's actually been/seen the inside of that thing?
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Mimi
climber
|
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Feb 21, 2009 - 02:22am PT
|
I saw it once. I was waiting for him to get his gear to go climbing. Nothing to write home about. Tuck's a regular guy.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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Feb 21, 2009 - 02:57am PT
|
Roy;...maybe it's your diet;......I have a suggestion.....it's worth a try;....
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 21, 2009 - 09:18am PT
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Todd/Cosmic
Now if that picture isn't AWESOME--just think of what
Bear 46 would do with a FRIED TWINKIE!!!!
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
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Don't miss this auction!
We have just begun gathering and already we have lined up signed JT guidebooks, vintage gear, new gear and unique memorabilia from "A List" famous climbers.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Feb 21, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
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Drink a malted beverage.
Talk stacks of feces...
Mingle with the beautiful people...
"Ho, Man! Recount 'Old Man and the Sea'...a man paddles out and returns with nothing but rack of bones...and his pride."
Do your best KISS impersonation in Todd's living room...
Maybe even climb a rock.
Plus raw fish? What more could you ask for?
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Feb 21, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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Ezra and Tar: wow really informative here. thanks for posting this info.
Tar, I have exactly the same symptoms that you have. I'm about 3 years into it. My symptoms include tinnitus and tingling with a numb-like feel of hands forearms face and bottoms of my feet. I work on a computer 8 hrs a day about 4 days a week for 6 years. I've had the same workup looking for the big neuro dx all negative and my adrenals looked like yours. I'm climbing fairly well and get this: I spent a month climbing etc (200 miles on foot) in the Khumbu this year and ALL my symptoms went away.What a relief! I had some new problems with cold in my hands though, but so did my partners. 10days back on the job ALL my symptoms returned in the same sequence that took 3 years to originally develop. Right now I'm 8 weeks into 3times weekly chiropractic program and no relief yet although my posture is really improving.
Lidocaine patches work for me short term as does a lot of ice. Sometimes I climb with a lidocaine patch on each arm and tape around the arm below the elbow and at the wrist for some short term support. I too have spent lots of time and cash on all kinds of treatments including accupuncture rolfing Bowen etc etc. Other injuries have healed but not this. I'm on the look for a new job of course but support 3 kids so that's a careful change.
Tar,thanks for posting this up. You have my best wishes for healing and finding the key to this thing.
Ezra, thanks for thinking about this , I have printed your replies to share with my doc who is really perplexed with this as I am. (I'm an RN by the way). so far it looks autonomic and that's about all anybody can say about it. One md suggestion was to do a lumbar puncture to look for lyme spirochette in the spinal fluid, although Borrelia antibodies neg and I can think straight.
all the best, LP
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 21, 2009 - 08:06pm PT
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Luckypink
Have you been ruled out for just classic carpel tunnel?
Best
-e
All the stuff about vasodilators and statins would only apply if you had increased homocystine levels, or some other thrombogenic condition.
Tar,
If you were to take statins you might have to use them for up to 2 years to notice a difference. Cialis might work same day, but it's just treating the symptoms and not the underlying problem, if microvascular occlusion is in fact you problem.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Feb 21, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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yes, Ezra , I have only very mild carpal tunnel syndrome per the testing and no classic tingling such as two finger involvement or pain in the palm. My pain is above the wrist deep in the forearm so bad I can't hold a magazine at night after work. I do have a numb tingling feeling inside my mouth and tongue which gave the neurologist a reason to look for cns problems.
strange, huh.... my doc thought about the procardia but my bp is low anyway and my cholesterol panel is stellar. I know another climber that was having the pumped out forearm pain with poor grip and he had the surgery (shunts placed in both wrists) with great success but the doppler test was positive. Like Tar my grip is over 98 even with the symptom of pain and doppler is negative. Odd thing is IGM is over 500. I'm alot like Tar must have been a few years ago in terms of pain and function. My symptoms are slowly steadily worsening also, except for having that full month away from that huge electromagnetic field I work under, when every last one of my symptoms disappeared.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Feb 21, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
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hey there .... wow tarbuster... sorry to hear all this....
hmm... but still, it looks like you are ruling out some very severe conditions, so perhaps that is good???
well, you know, no matter what it is, one thing for sure... if you cut out all foods that are full of additives, you will do your immune system good, at any rate...
cut out meats, too, and go for other protein for awhile...
when i did this, all the stiffness in my hands, stopped... i had never had this before, until i was eating all this when i stayed at a friends... also, cut-out all the bread, etc, as due to the dough conditions... etc...
drink lots of water, too...
hope this helps 'til you learn more....
(some folks say, that a chiropracter sets everything in line, and then the stiff arms, and hands get stronger, too----not saying to do this, but you ask others about it)...
now----as i was a bad ol' gal, and came in backwards, here, i will go back and see "what all is what"---thanks to a "note" from one of your friends, in another post, i just learned of all this:
being as i could not go to the benefit, i never had checked this thread yet---i have been too busy fixing a book, to stay on line much...
god bless and GET WELL soon, i WILL BE PRAYING.....
we GOT to have you well and climbing! :)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 22, 2009 - 05:52am PT
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Carpel tunnel when it goes untreated;....
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 22, 2009 - 11:24am PT
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Don't know what to say lucky.
Maybe it's time for a new job in medicine?
-e
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 22, 2009 - 12:15pm PT
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That's a pretty nasty case of carpal tunnel there Todd!
If I didn't know any better, I would say she was infected with a case of the screeming rugrats...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 22, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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Lucy Pink,
Thanks for joining in; I hope you get it figured out.
Maybe we do share some parallel symptoms.
Can’t hold a magazine at night after work? (I feel your pain, heh heh)
At least not holding it up that’s for sure, that’s much too demanding I understand.
I never hold anything in my hands for very long if I can avoid it; I certainly wouldn’t entertain holding a magazine up so I could read it.
Forget about reading in bed too yes?
I lay the reading material on the nightstand next to me & sleep on a wedge so I can look over at the pages.
Levenger, if they are still around, does make some reading assist devices, like platforms that hold the book/magazine in place in a hands-free fashion either in front of you or on your lap.
You said pain deep in the forearm muscle. Yes.
 Where our symptoms differ:
Mine present something like a focal myopathy; although I can’t be diagnosed with one.
You have additional symptoms of tingling/numbness in the arms and in your face, mouth & feet as well, while I never present with any nervy tingling whatsoever.
Another thing that Doppler will rule out is compartment syndrome, where the facia surrounding the muscle bears down on it, effecting a sort of suffocation. I have heard of one climber with that; anytime he tried to boulder his arms would become very painful and swell up. (it’s well known that compartment syndrome in the legs can constitute a medical emergency, as there is pressure on an artery, or something like that)
To handle your computering workload:
You could try Dragon NaturallySpeaking, a voice-activated software.
Go for the Pro version; I have 8.0, while Rick A was using version 10.0 when he had a damaged wrist.
It works very well for dictation, if you don’t mind copious editing, but the noise canceling microphone is a bit wanting if you have lots of coworkers making noise nearby, however, if you can isolate yourself, like in your own office, that helps quite a bit.
Navigating through various applications can be problematic and if you go onto forums concerning the program you will find people get pretty fed up with it in terms of its appetite for computer resources and the various bugs which it seems to have. It can also get clogged up and require periodic reloading. Perhaps the newer versions are better; it’s about 7 or $800.
Lucy, you mentioned you have isolated the electromagnetic component as having direct effect on your symptoms.
There are scads of products and procedures on the market and in use in therapy which attempt to address this electromagnetic component of our physiology.
As mentioned above, I have a device called NeuroSCENAR, which has translated manuals from the Russian (thanks Jay Breaux for your offer on divining those). It’s both diagnostic and therapeutic and highly detailed. I haven’t applied it yet; I could pay some money and attend some courses to learn how to use it…hopefully I wouldn’t have to use my hands to take too many notes…ha!
There’s a particular company that makes an electromagnetic mat, QRS, for about $4000.
This is fairly passive, although there is an active component to its use, and it was invented to delay the effects, or counteract the effects of osteoporosis in astronauts working in zero gravity for long periods of time. The claims extend to stimulation of cell functioning and metabolism, oxygen assimilation, and removal of toxins
Neebee mentioned dietary factors.
The ways in which you can tinker with diet are legion.
I’ve entertained an alkaline diet for quite some time.
I may have mentioned above chronic esophagitis: so a more alkaline internal ecology is the first move (also can help with inflammation), yet my doctor’s ideas about this is that it had to do with protein metabolism more than anything else. A barium swallow shows scarring, but the acute symptoms are largely in remission through a combination of dietary control and intestinal mucosa protocols.
Of course I never eat any processed foods, and with adrenals it’s important to watch the glycemic index of carbohydrates in particular.
I have isolated all kinds of proteins such as red meat and so forth.
Another obvious step which I haven’t completely engaged is cutting out dairy and instituting a gluten-free dietary regime.
Some of these things are at odds: fats from dairy and animals are very effective in mobilizing toxins, especially once they’re prepared for transport via other carefully engaged dietary protocols.
The key in staying with those things is to be heavily invested in intake only of certified organic foods so that no further pesticides, insecticides are dumped into the system, adding to the burden.
Oh well,
I went on a very long ski tour yesterday, skiing without poles is great for core strength!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 22, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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Tar,
I would like to come and support you and meet all the ST crazies (and I'll gladly put myself in that camp --- I would be the one wearing the tin-foil hat).
Anyway, I have not gone through all the posts, so I don't know exactly what the condition is and what you really know about it or what you don't know about your condition.
However, my children have Celiac Sprue. It is a genetic disease and it won't ever go away. They got it from me, and my side of the family. I have the gene, but so far it hasn't expressed itself in my body yet. You can go through life, then wham! it can express itself out of the blue due to environment or stress. My blood work has to be checked on periodically to see if I'm developing it. So far, so good. Many people have it and they don't know it (approx. 1/100). They treat the symptoms but not the disease. Celiac can cause all kinds of very serious system problems and sometimes none of which appear to be related, but they are. It can even lead to blindness.
My children cannot have any Gluten. No wheat, barley, rye, or oats. Any other grain products they can have. You have probably seen in the grocery stores everywhere "Gluten Free" products. Many people are now becoming aware of it and their doctors as well.
Having Celiac, the Gluten destroys the cilia of the small intestine which means you are not absorbing the proper nutrients that your body needs, and then this can express itself in soooo many different ways.
It is important for everyone to get checked, just to make sure you don't have it. Go to a doctor who knows about Celiac really well. Some don't know about it yet or vaguelly and don't know the critical tests to be done. There is blood work to be done to see if you have the gene, then endoscopy is the gold standard to see if there is any damage to the small intestine.
It may not have anything to do with what you have, but you can easily check, and everyone should.
Celiac can be easily controlled with a gluten free diet. In fact some people have just gone to a Gluten free diet to see if works without the tests, and it has made all the difference in their lives. But you can't cheat the diet. If you do and you have Celiac, then damge happens no matter what.
I know what everyone is thinking, if I have Celiac then I can't drink beer anymore. Well, they make Gluten free beer. I just had a Belgium Gluten free beer the other night at a Gluten free pizza restuarant and if was really good. No problem.
Anyway, something to think about. You never know until you check it out.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 22, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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Klimmer,
Thanks for the rundown on Celiac.
Although my physician hadn't ruled that out by name, and I have not had an endoscopy, I'm quite sure he knows about the condition, given his focus.
In any event when I pass through the gluten-free portal, I'll know if that's a contributing factor.
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Feb 22, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
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Tarbousier, I'm just now getting around to signing in to the Taco for the first time in a looooooooooong time 'cause I got this e in my inbox clueing me in to the Party.
Abby and I both send you LOTS of love and hugs and good thoughts and such from th southeast...
You know I'm not gonna be able to make it to Todds to hug your neck personally, but hoepfully someone there will pass one on for me to you...
Keep playin' in the snow and smiling your beautiful smile while (hopefully!) letting the rest of us make you feel good for a change!
Love to you...
BB (and AbbytheFruitBatDog, of course!)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 22, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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Thanks for your sweetness BB!
Keep laying down tracks in them' flat water trails...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 22, 2009 - 06:01pm PT
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Come join in the fun;...hang around for awhile.......
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 22, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
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Tar,
You were anti-gliadin antibodies negative so celiac is very unlikely.
The esophageal scarring makes me want you to see a rheumatology doc sooner rather than later. Esophageal scarring can possible related to an antibody positive rheumatologic condition.
best
-e
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 22, 2009 - 07:48pm PT
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I may have miss-spoke in terms of scarring.
When I queried the doctor who interpreted the films, he described a mild thickening of the esophagus.
When I asked why, I believe he said the cause of this would have been irritation or inflammation but with no particular concern beyond what is a normal outcome from some degree of protracted acid reflux.
No further tests were recommended, nothing seen to indicate endosopy for Barrett's.
Does that alter your suspicion and recommendation?
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dogtown
climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
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Feb 22, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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Hey; Roy boy
Hang in there; you have a lot of friends.
Wish we could attend, but it is impossible at this time.
All the best.
Bruce.
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reddirt
climber
Elevation 285 ft
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Feb 22, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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Ezra, MD seems to be someone whose prolly barking in the right neck of the woods.
On some other fronts, I wonder if the collective Taco can ponder & scheme on how to get Tar:
-on some sort of insurance... esp since the route to a diagnosis has/will be so lab intensive.
-seen by a trustworthy rheumatologist.
One angle I was wondering about is getting Tar into a clinical trial of some sort (which will ease cost of treatment)... but most of the time, one would need a diagnosis first... but then again, the plurality of rheum patients don't have a definitive diagnosis so perhaps there's trials out there based on less specific diagnositic codes???
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Feb 22, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
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Reddirt - He's got insurance. But as many of us know (and have experienced first hand) having insurance, even so-called 'good' insurance, doesn't mean an illness can crush us financially. I'm looking forward to the party. We'll be there!
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 22, 2009 - 09:51pm PT
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Tar,
Was thinking about Esophageal dysmotility which can be assocaited with Calcinosis, raynauds, esophageal dysmotitlity, sclerodacly and Telangectasia. The acronym is CREST
CREST is associated with anticentromere antibodies. It lessens my suspicion if you describe thickening rather than scarring.
My most important question of all TAR: Do you smoke? If so you must stop as it absolutely destroys a person's vessels and would likely be the primary cause.
Best
-e
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 22, 2009 - 10:27pm PT
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Thanks for noting the distinction Ezra.
I thought you might say thickening and scarring were synonymous.
Not a smoker and aware of the inherent vascular risks.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 22, 2009 - 10:55pm PT
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Ezra,
I've been hoping that triangulation of symptoms might lead somewhere.
Cold extremities and persistent arm pain does lead us to microvascular conclusions perhaps.
I'm not sure how well-versed you are in interpreting the nine pages of numbers revealed through the Metametrix ION panel previously posted. I have no background in physiology or biochemistry so it’s all Greek to me.
A good portion of my internist's therapies respond to an interpretation of these data.
Perhaps, regardless of your particular or specific training, looking at a change in a group of these numbers, specifically the organic acids (shown below), will instruct you as to my ability to respond. Does my body’s ability to absorb the essential nutrients to rectify the state of my organic acids tell you something about my overall state of health and likewise continue with our differential diagnosis, (if that's the correct term)?
I’ve used the original report as a template.
Again, the first set of numbers dates from August 17, 2007.
The changes are noted in red, from a draw dated February 11, 2008.
You’ll note nearly the entire schedule of values moves to the left, which was the intended result, and essentially concluded, aside from more aggressive detoxification, the efforts of my internist to affect a change in my systemic constitution.
Thank You
Roy
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 23, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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Special offer;....while you are at Joshua Tree, if you onsite this climb and donate over $500.00....Roy will kiss you on the lips.....(boy or girl;...don't matter.....).....limit of 10 kisses per person........(I practiced the climb today, to get the moves down.......)...rare opportunity.....(wait a minute;...is my hand on that draw?....)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 23, 2009 - 02:18am PT
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That sure is a lot of tests - I had no idea that so many were possible. Well, time spent in reconnaisance is never wasted - hopefully some rheumatological wizard will appear, and help Roy.
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
Sherlock Holmes/Arthur Conan Doyle
Have they considered whether wearing a cowboy hat may be a factor? (OK, just teasing.)
I hope to make the event on the 25th, perhaps combining it with a modest road trip and some climbing. It would be for a very good cause, plus a chance to see old and new friends. (Self-persuasion is a delicate art...) And in the meantime, good luck to tarbuster as he negotiates the shoals and rapids of life, and let's hope that he soon comes to friendlier waters.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Feb 23, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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bump back to first page.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 23, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
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Ready to belay...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 23, 2009 - 07:13pm PT
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Tar, glad to see you guys are still at it...! Ezra, good feedback all the way around from the looks of it.
Revisiting all this I keep coming back to the notion of something as localized as forearms, even bilaterally, manifesting symptoms means mechanical, neurological, vasuclar, or autonomic problem[s]. It's still quite hard for me to imagine a scenario where your general nutritional chemistry could play a major role in this without some pretty extrordinarily out-of-whack numbers showing up like an alarm in your blood work and you presenting far more wide-ranging symptoms. Even in the case of an autonomic problem it seems strange you'd be presenting as localized a set of symptoms as you seem to be. I also have a pretty hard time with any suggestions of EMF causality, and even more with the idea 9-volt battery-driven electronics could add anything to our already cluttered EMF profiles which would change our physiology in any marked, predictable, or cognitively recognizable way.
If parasites are ruled out, it still seems you'd be better off finishing up with the vascular and rheumatology end of things as something interferring with, or attacking, your muscles seem reasonable remaining paths to scout.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Feb 23, 2009 - 08:29pm PT
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There will be "kickass" auction associated with this event. Books, photos, gear, historical stuff (not just the old dude[ette]s). Contact RickA -- upthread -- to donate stuff.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 23, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
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Walleye:
Please contact Rick Accomazzo for auction item contributions:
raccomazzo@bmalaw.com
Healyje:
I get your conclusions.
As you said you had emailed Collier, please forward me his response?
I'll look into it a little further on my end & see if he's in network, clear the path with referral if necessary.
I've received some cash donations via mail from some terrific people here on the Forum.
This includes some PT known as MAT, which is being used by sports teams. (Thanks BrassNuts).
Will entertain a half dozen sessions, care of those who've donated.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 23, 2009 - 10:06pm PT
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Tar,
I think Healy is right on on his last post. It is unlikely that an amino acid disorder would present as a localized forearm issue. Certainly amino acid disorders can cause muscle wasting and atrophy, but they typically would present in the Teenage years at the latest. (Homocystine being an obvious exception to that rule).
I'm really not competent in interpreting all of those amino acids. One thing to remember is that 5% of people who are read as abnormal on any given test are actually normal. This is because "normal" is defined as the mean plus or minus two standard deviations.
Any ways, we're all pulling for you.
best
-e
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 23, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
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Tar, I'll get back to you as soon as I hear from him...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 24, 2009 - 02:33am PT
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Tar, got to digging around the whole compartment business. Apparently almost the entire body of work and knowledge around this is based on lower extremities. There are also a couple of varieties with differences between acute and chronic exertional (CECS) forms of the syndrome. Reported instances of forearms seem to be relatively rare. Because of that it looks like they try to associate it with young athletes, but I suspect that's just all they've seen.
Not sure the standard (leg-oriented) testing would necessarily pin it down. Doing a [url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cecs+forearm" target="new"]google search[/url] turns up some interesting reading and I see there is even a pressure study using healthy rockclimbers showing some folks are at least on the scent of it all in this direction. Not sure I'd rule this one out just yet and I'd probably bring it up with any rheum or vascular guys you talk with - and definitely not let them discount it or necessarily attempt to diagnose it like they would CS of the leg.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 24, 2009 - 02:47am PT
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EDIT: scratch the below as I see you already mentioned TOS - sure that was conclusively ruled out? I'm rereading and see in that post you did see a vascular guy (sorry I missed that up to now) - still, I'm not sure I wouldn't revisit the whole [url="http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1269081-overview" target="new"]CECS business[/url] if I were you.
Tar, another couple of questions, does this ever involve any weakness or tingling in your fingers and if so, any particular ones more than others? And is this ever accompanied by tingling or discomfort around your lower neck or top-inboard shoulder area?
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Feb 24, 2009 - 11:01am PT
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Well Pilgram what are you waiting for? Get your ass to the Stonemaster benefit...
Although I'll most likely not make it.
Prod.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 24, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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Healyje:
Your vigilance is appreciated.
Between you and Ezra, (and everybody else who is following this),
I’ve got some good company here in the “shallows” as Mighty Hiker put it.
CECS,
I am aware of the pressure tests and haven’t sought one.
(I believe this test and the corresponding fasciotomy were previously suggested by Spectreman here on the forum, who is a physical therapist)
Yes I mentioned the pressure test to the vascular surgeon who performed the Doppler evaluation, but it wasn’t a direction he saw fit to go. (You may remember, I worked a handgrip before his eval, in attempts to produce findings which might not have been felt at rest). At best, he suggested seeing an orthopedic hand surgeon or muscle neurologist, who might be able to investigate further along those lines, although he was completely baffled that there were no findings in that direction. So he quizzically framed these as investigative longshots.
At this point I may be amenable to testing intracompartmental pressure (ICP). However, I have to consider that CECS is not consistent with reports of chronic pain, as it is observed to be exercised induced.
The following description is directly at odds with my experience, as I distinctly present with unprovoked fatigue and pain: at rest.
The pain slowly resolved on cessation of the exercise but recurred each time this exercise was performed. There were no forearm symptoms when he was not weight-training.
TOS,
Many evaluations have ruled this out.
When I posited the possibility of TOS related exercise induced ischemia, which only shows up during specific activities and is remedied through resection, the vascular surgeon still wasn’t going for it, but said that if I wanted to do a CT Angiogram, while entertaining various ranges of motion, that I could pursue this, for a few thousand dollars.
Tingling at the neck, inboard shoulder area, and individual fingers: negative.
Health Insurance:
It is time I lay this out plainly.
In 2001 my rates doubled overnight; at that time I had excellent coverage w/ $500 deductible and very low office visit co-pay.
I now have a $5,000 deductible with no co-pay.
This is essentially catastrophic coverage, and in any particular year $5000 out-of-pocket, is always over my budget, and rarely completely recognized in network well enough to meet the deductible.
Again, “expeditionary” efforts, as you so aptly described them upthread, in light of my mounting debt in this regard (due to yearly expeditionary efforts), become increasingly sketchy propositions.
Currently on the block:
(my strategy is to see the Reumatologist and discuss prioritization of some of the other therapies/avenues listed below, before engaging any one of them, except MAT, which I'm already doing).
Dr Collier, Rheumatology: I can get in to see in June or July, over an hour’s drive.
Dr Perkins, Rheumatology, Colorado Center for Arthritis & Osteoporosis: I can see next month here in Boulder.
(Dr. Perkins comes highly recommended by a local nurse practitioner, who BTW, is one of his patients and concurs with your idea that I should next try a Rheumatologist)
ICP/CECS testing: from the links you provided it appears that the rheumatology department is an intermediate route to this test.
CIALIS: Ezra recommended this as a microvascular therapy, I can put a call in to the vascular surgeon and see about getting a prescription.
ASTYM: a stimulus protocol (recommended by Spectreman) for alleviating fibrotic conditions & tendonosis.
PRP: platelet rich plasma injections (as recommended by granite climber & noted in NYT)
MAT: muscle activation technique, a manual physical therapy, purported to remedy chronic muscle splinting/spasm & activate/optimize muscle firing, currently scheduled out over the next three weeks. Something I hadn’t previously tried.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Feb 24, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Tar: If you need a ride to see Collier or Perkins, let's coordinate. Happy to help...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 24, 2009 - 03:24pm PT
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"Shoals" seems more poetic than "shallows", so I changed it.
How is tarbuster himself going to get to Joshua Tree on the 25th?
Bump.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Feb 24, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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Yo Tar,
Just because Cialis is for your arms is no excuse to waste a boner! Getty up Lisa!
Prod.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Feb 24, 2009 - 06:35pm PT
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"I think Healy is right on on his last post. It is unlikely that an amino acid disorder would present as a localized forearm issue."
The problems are isolated to your arms (mostly your forearms), correct? And although you had severe tendonitis before, it got much worse after you really pumped out your forearms in the theater job?
Bad enough compartment syndrome could potentially cause long-lasting damage to the nerves and muscles. Have they ruled this out?
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001224.htm
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1269081-overview
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 24, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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Granite Climber,
Yes this is what we have been discussing and thanks for those links.
However, per the first link you provided, during rapid onset of this muscle failure (not muscle failure in a clinical sense, this is just what I call it) which was almost 12 years ago (June/July 1997), I never experienced any of the following:
"Typically, severe pain will occur when a muscle running through a compartment is passively moved. For example, when the doctor moves the toes up and down, a patient with compartment syndrome in the foot or lower leg will experience severe pain. The skin overlying the compartment will be tensely swollen and shiny. There will also be pain when the compartment is squeezed."
When a neurosurgeon looked at my C-spine MRIs, around 2001, he conjectured at best I may have had a minor bout of compartment syndrome. But I never had a tensely swollen, as in outsized, shiny skinned situation with my arms. It wasn’t particularly painful, as in adding pain, to engage in flexion or extension at the time. Hypertonicity of the muscle maybe... largely a feeling of stiffness and fatigue.
I've heard secondhand reports of a young climber with compartment syndrome in the forearms. The reports definitively involve the swelling of his forearms; I would never describe this, then or now.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 24, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
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OK, just back and only skimmed a few pages, but Roy, my man! You made friends with a rheumatologist who has climbed Cerro Torre at Snow Canyon.
I'll talk to him again shortly. Do you want me to have him give you a call?
email me.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 24, 2009 - 08:18pm PT
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Ron,
So I've met the man?
Sure, have him call me 303 258 3455.
Granite Climber,
I can certainly see the similarities.
Again from your second link:
This looks much like CECS proposed by Healyje:
"Chronic CS (CCS) is a recurrent syndrome that occurs with exercise or work. CCS characterized by pain and disability that subside when the precipitating activity is stopped but that return when the activity is resumed. Although more common in the anterior compartment of the lower leg, CCS has been described in the forearm of motocross racers and other athletes.7, 8, 9
Chronic CS (CCS) is clinically distinct from the acute CS; it often occurs bilaterally, and pain may be reproducible at a specific workload or time interval. Most athletes cannot play through the severe pain, but symptoms tend to resolve within an hour of terminating the activity. Bilateral CCS should be suspected in patients who complain of bilateral exercise-induced pain in the anconeus muscle, the forearms, the thenar and hypothenar regions, and the first dorsal interosseous muscle. The symptoms are usually minimal during normal daily activities."
Again, although it's very close, bilateral and exercise-induced (exacerbated would be more correct), it doesn't necessarily go away upon cessation of activity and never did.
Also I've had a handful of physicians performing exams for compartment syndrome: reviewing my history, listening to my descriptions, and they're just not coming up with it; not enough to do a pressure test.
Doesn't mean I don't have some weird form of it...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Feb 24, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
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Yeah, most of the material on compartment syndrome is about accute compartment syndrome (when someone gets compartment syndrome after being in a car wreck for example.) There is not as much material out there on chronic compartment syndrome. Also, as far as I know it is pretty rare for people to get "permanent" damage from chronic compartment syndrome. But from what I've read, it is possible.
In chronic exertional compartment syndrome, the repetitive activity causes tissue in the affected muscle area, or compartment, to swell. That, in turn, increases pressure within the compartment, leading to a decreased blood supply to the muscles. This can cause injury to the muscle and nerves, sometimes resulting in permanent damage.
People with chronic exertional compartment syndrome typically experience pain that begins with activity, progressively worsens and then stops when at rest. As the condition worsens, however, the pain can take longer to subside.
Chronic exertional compartment syndrome is uncommon and sometimes goes undiagnosed. It's not known how many people may be affected, but the number of diagnosed cases has been rising in recent years. The condition seems to affect primarily young athletes in their 20s, although younger and older people also can develop the condition.
Chronic exertional compartment syndrome can be difficult to diagnose, partly because the affected limbs generally look perfectly normal — they may not even appear swollen.
"Introduction" section of http://www.riversideonline.com/health_reference/Disease-Conditions/DS00789.cfm (content from mayoclinic.com)
Chronic exertional compartment syndrome isn't a life-threatening condition and often doesn't cause any lasting or permanent damage. However, if you continue to exercise despite pain, the repeated increases in compartment pressure can lead to muscle, nerve and blood vessel damage. As a result, you may develop permanent numbness or weakness in affected muscles.
"Complications" section of http://www.riversideonline.com/health_reference/Disease-Conditions/DS00789.cfm
(content from mayoclinic.com)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 24, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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Good work.
Okay so no swelling necessary for a positive on chronic compartment syndrome.
But not getting any nerve damage, not presenting with tingling or numbness, just had a workup from a vascular surgeon and nerve conduction studies with a neurologist, then two prior nerve conduction studies from Physiatrists in 2000 and 2004; no discernible problems there and this has been going for almost 12 years.
Still, pretty close from a layman's perspective, to some chronic form of compartment syndrome.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 24, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
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Hey!
You were supposed to email!
Too late. Spoke to him, gave him your number.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 24, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Bitchin'...
(old school for way cool)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 24, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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Granite Climber,
The second link in your previous post is the best one yet, great job on running these down.
"To make a potential diagnosis of CCS, patients had to fulfil certain clinical criteria in terms of history and examination: (i) the forearm pain must have been of gradual, not acute, onset, deteriorating to a point where repetitive usage of the affected arm in the workplace and at home was becoming restricted and which persisted after work; (ii) there should be distal neurological complaints (paraesthesiae, burning sensation, loss of sensation in the hand, often with a history of shooting pains down the forearm to the wrist after strenuous use, and of interrupted sleep due to forearm pain and paraesthesiae over the back of the wrist); and (iii) other diagnoses must have been excluded. All such complainants had been in jobs requiring prolonged minimal-variation repetitive work involving the painful arm; (keyboard, light assembly/food processing/packing/heavy industrial assembly), so this appears to be a de facto requirement as well.
In addition to the above, clinical examination should elicit tenderness, with or without swelling, on local pressure over the extensor muscle compartment in the upper forearm and often with a positive Tinel's test over the posterior interosseus nerve (PIN) at this point. Repetitive gripping ability over a 2 min test period in the affected hand should be both reduced and progressively painful. Pain and altered sensitivity to touch or pinprick over the dorsum of the wrist and mild median nerve sensitivity are often found but without typical carpal tunnel symptoms. A total of 42 patients fulfilling these criteria have been studied (group 3; 11 males, 31 females).
"
I am however not meeting the criteria; I have no neurological complaints, burning, loss of sensation, or shooting pains, as noted in the first paragraph. And as required for a positive diagnosis.
Per the second paragraph, tenderness is not elicited when the arms are palpated.
Even so, this is really good stuff.
If nothing else, the bells are ringing all around the rheumatology department.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Feb 24, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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Roy,
I feel for you and hope that you find a solution. I have had two times in my life when I had health problems that were difficult to diagnose, so I know what you are going through. The first time was in my twenties. I had intestinal pain and trouble digesting food. 12 specialist later I had a diagnosis of Crohn's disease and one of colitis and one of ulcerative colitis. I was so happy when I got the first diagnosis of colitis, because I thought I was on track to fixing it, then I found out that colitis means pain in the intestines. Doh ! At one point the docs recommended removing a large section of my intestines. I asked for a second opinion and the doc scoped me again and found that the section of my intestines that was inflamed was no longer inflamed, but a completely different section was.
Eventually I got frustrated with docs and stopped going. I went on a very restrictive diet and cut out milk products, red meat, corn, wheat, sugar, caffeine and alcohol and all prescription meds, I was on a long list of meds including prednisone . After about 3 years I got considerably better and added most of those foods back into my diet.
Then in my forties my health went south again. The short list is that I had Multiple Blood clots, lung problems, a minor stroke, plus rhuematoid arthritis. Then it appears that some of the meds I took weakened my tendons and I blew out my achilles.
Eventually I started doing things like meditating and now my health is slowly coming back. My adrenal glands were totally shot and everything hurt and I think the meditating helped with that.
There are other things that I believe have helped me, such as really looking into what I believe about God. I know that many people don't want to hear this, so I wont go on, but I do pray for you and hope that you will find the solutions that you need.
You have been a source of inspiration for me as you calmly negotiate your way through your problems and this has helped me to see that my reactive nature wasn't helping me. So thank you for that. I really admire your courage and fortitude, and your willingness to be enthusiastic. Even more so now that I know more about your conditions and the challenges that you face.
Hoping for the best.
John
P.S. Thanks Erza for your input. I know that I and others have been hard on docs in the past here on the taco, so I appreciate your willingness to jump in.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 24, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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Your encouragement and prayers are much appreciated and wholeheartedly accepted!
Yes, Ezra has provided steadfast and productive companionship here along this stretch.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 24, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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Nice and Honest post from the heart Moosie. Good to hear from you and Howdy. We met at the FaceLift. Hope to see ya this coming year, God willing and the Creek don't Rise...as my Grandpa used to say. Lynnie
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 24, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
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Well, if the creek rises, GROUP HUG and as a unit we'll rise above!
Flotation is groovy...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 24, 2009 - 11:45pm PT
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See Tucker's feet;...IN PERSON....Stonemaster slides/Tarbuster Benefit;...........
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Feb 24, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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The creek sure did rise here in Wawona after that last rain. I enjoyed meeting you at the facelift Lynne. Maybe next year I will challenge you to a game of bocce ball if I make it down before dark. haha..
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 24, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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Lynne Leichtfuss already starting to party;....(getting ready for April 25th)....
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 24, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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Tar,
I had thought about the chronic compartment syndrome too, the more I think about the more likely it seems. My mentors use to say to me "uncommon presentations of common diseases are more common than uncommon diseases". Another way to interpret that statement is "patient's don't read the text book".
If Rheumatology fails to find an answer an orthopaedic hand surgeon would probably be a good next step (unfortunately they ain't cheep).
The Cialis suggestion would be almost entirely experimental (and off label) , again it would only treat the symptoms and not the underlying problem, although if you responded it would further strengthen a vascular argument.
Chronic compartment syndrome or vascular insuficiency (microvascular narrowing) are my favored diagnoses (and would present essentially the same way). We'll seem what rheumatology turns up. It's good for us all not to get to in love with our ideas (especially full of themselves MD's like myself).
Logically, it would seem your forearm muscles are out stripping their blood supply, either due to temporary reversable occluison (chronic compartment syndrome) or narrowing of the arteries (vascular occlusion). Now lets find a way to prove it and fix it.
Best
-e
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 25, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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Bwahahaha, LOL hugely. Moosie, TB and Gordo still have the grate sense of humor !!!! Feels sehr gut to laugh.
Bocce, cerveza and my own personal Guido...what more could a gal ask for. (Darn, if I'd held the can face forward Modelo said they would have given us a job..!)
EDIT: We all raise a fist and a beer to Tuckers Feet. (Could be a grate name for the next best Knarly Climb :)))))
Double EDIT: New knarly beer called Tuckers Feet ...with his very own on the label. WoooHeeee, what do you think ? Pro a DARK malt !?
Triple Edit: Along with the kin of double dog dare you....laughter is sometimes the best medicine. Jess sayin'. Bet Jingy would agree.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 25, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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Tar,
Hmmm, mystery upon mystery, your symptoms are quite elusive relative to known syndromes / conditions. Stepping back yet again - still ruling out parasites and general [nutritional] deficiencies such vitamin D - and also for the moment excluding degenerative neuromuscular disease (and systemic autonomic conditions) which would likely present broad ranging symptoms on multiple fronts, it still seems to me you're down to three possibilities:
a) forearm-local neuro/vascular/muscular problem
b) problem related to the neurological pathways somewhere going on back as far as the spine
c) vascular pathway problems going back to the thorasic.
And I suppose any of those three could also easily be combined with both exertional/repetitive injury (work & climbing), and, this many years later, with more localized autonomic responses. Seems to me if the pathways from spine and thorasic do in fact check out (spinal stenosis, TOS, etc.) then, regardless of the symptom mismatch, you're down to something f#cked up locally in your forearms and it can only be so many things in that case. I suppose a rheumotologist could catch something systemic in all that lab work that somehow only presents in your forearms, but I still seriously doubt it.
I'd say take Callie up on her offer, go with Collier (haven't heard back yet) - bundle all your records up along with this thread and ship it to him a good month in advance with a good summary cover letter (I would, or maybe Ezra might be willing, to help with it).
[ EDIT: Ha! Ezra - you beat me to the same conclusion. Sometimes I wish I hadn't discovered climbing in the midst of pre-med studies... ]
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 25, 2009 - 01:20am PT
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Vascular insufficiency seems the most likely culprit to me.
Remember, that doesn't just present locally in the forearms with me, there is systemic precedent.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 25, 2009 - 04:34am PT
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Just sent Dr. David Nelson a short note with link to this thread. He may or may not want to dive in here. He's certainly been more than generous with his time and advisory comments here on ST in the past (even with an old uncorrected finger break of mine), but as Ezra can probably testify, it can be a fine line of propriety and a sticky wicket doing medicine online so we probably shouldn't necessarily have expectations either way, but you never know...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 25, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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PAD peripheral artery disease
Yes granite climber: that PAD is some pretty nasty stuff.
Nice diligence on your part with the links; I’m reading all of it. I have more or less reviewed this material on peripheral artery disease before. From what I understand it’s fairly progressive and I should be really wiped out by now with some of those end stage symptoms.
”Buerger’s disease, an inflammation of the small blood vessels and nerves in your hands and feet that usually affects male smokers”.
Descriptively, this Buegers disease seems like some sort of corner case worth looking at.
”Rarely, frostbite, radiation therapy for breast cancer, and repeated injury, for example, to the pad of your hand, or other forms of injury, can cause arm artery disease.”
I’ve had frostbite to my hands: if in some bizarre way, damage to the capillaries in my fingers contributes to some upstream resistance in the forearms, then this could be a player. I conjectured this earlier up thread.
Severe second-degree frostbite circa 1984:
Today:
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Feb 25, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
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Never saw the frost bite pics, looks awful.
Prod.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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Roy,
Looks like you had been using the knuckle-bashing Terrordachtyls discussed in recent threads. (Just trying to lighten up this discussion a little)
Rick
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 25, 2009 - 06:43pm PT
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Yes Riley,
I have taken extended breaks from climbing.
And most importantly, I have lowered the periodicity and intensity of what little climbing I do for a very long time.
I've done so little climbing over the last 12 years, that climbing hurts me the least of all activities currently. Simple daily chores and computering are the worst, riding a bicycle with drop bars is out, skiing with poles is out.
This doesn't mean you are wrong in shooting from the hip and suggesting I am just plain old worn-out.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Feb 25, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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Roy, going back the trouble you have using a mouse -- have you tried using a touchpad instead of a mouse?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 25, 2009 - 07:24pm PT
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Yikes ! Could someone give me a Short take on how frostbite to the hands to that degree feels, how long it takes to heal and does one have residual effects. Was thinking about getting more involved in the winter white buttttt...... lrl
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 25, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
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Didn't feel like throwing the money at a touch pad.
I can simply lay my hand on the table and start tapping my fingers and that will hurt the elbow tendons.
Doesn't mean that if I had a touch pad I couldn't throw it into the mix though.
As with voice-activated software, I still need to use the keys and occasionally the mouse.
So for instance, the keys on a laptop have a diminished stroke, and that switches up the strain enough to get by sometimes for a few minutes on a laptop, typing some sentences, without voice activation, where it would be more troublesome on a regular keyboard.
We are not talking about buying much time here though on the switch outs from say a mouse to a touchpad, or soft to hard keys. This is why I am unable to work: even this daily Q&A, as persistent as it is, puts me over the edge.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Feb 25, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
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Don't EVEN think of it Lynnie. Stay with the warm weather climbing, is my advice. Looky what happened to Roy! If yo wants to know how it feels...go stick yer hands in an ice bucket for a couple hours, then yer half way there.
Peace
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 25, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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Lynne,
You don't necessarily feel anything when frostbite happens, because sometimes, say if it's from acute exposure instead of lowered core temp, the external nerves can get numbed just so that you don't feel the deep freeze happening, as with me.
It's the rewarming that is painful.
Rapid rewarming is ill advised, as in the warm water of a shower. I didn't have any discoloration or other signs other than numbness, so of course went for rapid rewarming, which brought on a feeling of hammers and vice grips, which was quite painful.
I went to sleep in pain and was visited with swollen fingers and blisters upon waking.
Recovery varies from person to person; as I no doubt entertained rockclimbing too early in my recovery, my joints and tendons have never been the same. That meant I could resume after a few years to again lead 5.11, but hard bouldering was pretty much out for many years.
I ice climb some now in fact; more as a bizarre form of testing my coping responses than anything else. Facing the demon as it were... I'm bundled up face hands and feet beyond what most people would put up with in order to engage in "recreation".
Went out last week in fact.
These are token affairs really; some top roping, maybe an easy lead, taking pride in fiddling the screws in with my giant gloves on.
I go with a guy who is 67 years old and very conservative with any risk scenario.
Didn't go at all last year, because I could never recover from waxing the skate skis for Lisa and myself. This year, we decided for obvious economic reasons not to buy a pass for the Nordic tracks, so I found I had a little bit more "arm" left in me...
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 25, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
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Healy,
I discovered climbing in my 2nd year of med school. Wouldn't have completed medicine with out the community and outlet for normalcy it created (docs can be an odd bunch). You're happier for having discovered climbing earlier, trust me...;)
Tar,
There is a fair bit on pub med about autonomic dysfunction following frost bite in animal models. Also on Myointimal hyperplasia (vascular narrowing due to artery growth, essentially).
Vasa. 2001 Jul;30(3):176-83.Links
Myointimal hyperplasia and sympathetic reinnervation following local cold injury and rapid rewarming in the rabbit central ear artery.
Arvesen A, Maehlen J, Rosén L, Aas P.
Division for Environmental Toxicology, Norwegian Defence Research Establishment, Kjeller, Norway.
BACKGROUND: Functional and pathological improvements following rapid rewarming in 42 degrees C water was compared with alterations following slow thawing at room temperature (22 degrees C) after frostbite (-9 degrees C, 15 minutes) in vivo of the rabbit central ear artery. METHODS: Following two to ten weeks of in vivo regeneration, vascular segments were tested in vitro. Maximal and dose-dependent isometric contractions were induced by exogenous noradrenaline. Sympathetic nerves in the vascular wall were stained with glyoxylic acid. Vascular ring segments were stained with haematoxylin and eosin. RESULTS: Following slow thawing, the total uptake, the K+ evoked and the spontaneous release of [3H]noradrenaline in the sympathetic nervous system were strongly reduced two weeks after freezing, with a subsequent increase to control level within 3-4 weeks. After rapid rewarming the total uptake, the spontaneous release and the K+ evoked release of [3H]noradrenaline commenced earlier such that after ten weeks the level was twice as high as following slow rewarming. The glyoxylic acid induced catecholamine fluorescence in sympathetic nerves, revealed an earlier regeneration after rapid rewarming. Haematoxylin and eosin-stained segments revealed less intimal hyperplasia three to 20 weeks after rapid rewarming than after slow thawing. CONCLUSION: Rapid rewarming of in vivo frozen arteries in warm water (42 degrees C) did not prevent immediate vasoparalysis and degeneration of sympathetic nerves. However, nerve regeneration occurred earlier and with higher tissue nerve densities as compared to tissue that had been slowly rewarmed. Myointimal hyperplasia was less pronounced after rapid rewarming. Abnormal sympathetic nerve function and myointimal hyperplasia, as observed in this study, may contribute to a greater understanding of sequelae in the human body following frostbite.
Best,
-e
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 25, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
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I agree,
Sounds like a compartment syndrome,
Doppler flows are good, weighs against a vascular bypass being effective. So many variables in this problem, like a continuously repeating puzzle.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 25, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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Party, wiener dude....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 25, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Well, that rock, Todd is more descriptive than words can ever be! :D Leavin' it at that.
Is the band in, will the Cactus "bloom"? Which one of them is tan pants ? They rocked at Stephanie's Birthday !! Smiles lrl
Edit: limiting my winter wonderland protocol
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 26, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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so since i'm new, school me sewelly ..... who or what is barbar...? must be famous, infamous ?
Edit: ron g. will be watching the white stuff, ouch !
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 26, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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Sewellymon, LOL !!!! Todd hide yo familia. The climber dudettes I have met can take care of theyselves. Barbar better watch his own self ....hehehe. lrl
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Feb 26, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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Got to change my return flight to a couple days after the event. Yee haw! Looking forward to it.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 26, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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Check out the Stonemasters pre-book slideshow peek-a-boo, help out Roy "Beadwagon" McClannahan, have some uncooked dead fish, and sample some of the relaxing, low agle dummy dome breast climbing.....sure to be a weekend to remember...
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 26, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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Tar,
I spoke to a very good vascular/Cardiothroacic surgeon today at lunch. He offered some good insights.
1. He said he would want to demonstrate increased pressures in your forearm before he would have the surgery
2. At least in the anterior compartment of the calf you loose 5-10% of your calf strength when you have surgery for compartment syndrome.
3. He said the surgery wasn't that technically difficult.
4. He said that measuring the intra-compartmental pressure is difficult and variable depending on the technician.
In my opinion I would see an orthopaedic or vascular surgeon who is comfortable evaluating and correcting compartment syndrome, maybe even before a rheumatologist.
The surgeon should be open minded, as compartment syndrome of the forearms is extremely rare.
Bring articles on compartment syndrome of the forearms to him (or her).
Best
-e
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 26, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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Grate for you mooser ! Todd, dude, keepin' the fun in the thread which is what some of us need. Yes !
Jess got home and watchin' the On Sight dvd by Alastair Lee. Love the screaming, scary parts. :D
Big Respect for those dudes...."that's a whack" ....yeah it sho was. Ouch !
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 26, 2009 - 10:33pm PT
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Thank you for running that down Ezra.
Yes from what we’ve been reading, testing the ICP (inter-compartmental pressure) is a must-do in first verifying compartment syndrome or chronic compartment syndrome. I won’t go under the knife without it.
Thanks for highlighting that it’s also a tricky process; testing the compartment pressure.
As it turns out,
I've made an appointment with a rheumatologist for March 31.
This is for a doctor who was in a similar fellowship to that of Dr. Collier, under Sterling West.
Hopefully this will open up the diagnostic avenues a bit and lead to a good vascular/thoracic surgeon if need be.
Did you read up-thread where Healyje recommended I forward a packet with my histories, symptoms and tests prior to my appointment?
I have this packet standing by (plenty of them have gone out in the past).
He also recommended that one of you might prepare a cover letter, in order to summarize and best set the stage.
I just e-mailed him about it.
What is your opinion or inclination towards the cover letter?
Joseph said he was comfortable with drafting one, perhaps it is less appropriate for you to do it since you're an M.D. and I'm not technically your patient.
Thanks again,
Roy
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 26, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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Roy,
I'd probably be better if Healy did it, especially if he knows you personally. I'd like to help, but have never met or examined you. Wishing you the best, I know you are an amazing person and fighter, here's to the next crux (I've been drinking Moose Drool beer recently).
-e
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Feb 26, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
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Compartment syndrome of the upper extremities does seem to be very unusual. I did a Medline search and only found five cases in the medical literature. If it would be helpful, I could retrieve them and send them to you.
Dana
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 26, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
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Ezra,
Keep in mind I'm not resisting this growing sense amongst you physicians here on the form that this might be a form of chronic compartment syndrome.
Also recall I just underwent a workup from a very good vascular surgeon; wherein I pressed him on the idea of both a strange variety of exercise-induced TOS, as well as compartment syndrome, and the testing for inter compartmental pressure.
It sounds like I really need to do that ICP test and I'm not averse to it.
Roy
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 26, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
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It sounds like it will be quite a large event, given the general location, the site (Gordon ranch), the time of year, the entertainment (Stonemasters, sushi, etc), and most importantly the cause. How many people are likely to attend? Working backward from that, what arrangements will be needed?
It sounds like 100 - 200 might be there.
Portable toilets? (Dwayne?)
Keg(s), and whatever is needed to dispense them?
City permits?
Sound system, screen and projector, large enough area?
Big cleanup the next day?
Emergencies?
Sushi?
Money?
Bodyguard for Roy, so 200 people don't shake his hand and wear out his arm?
Plus all the other great stuff that Rick, Todd etc are doing to make it happen.
I'd guess that a volunteer or ten will be needed to make this all work well. Not knowing the plans, site, or likely attendance, I can't say more, but some planning and preparation are likely to pay off. That is, to generate more funds for Roy, and make sure everyone has a good time.
Not to mention the stuff people have to figure out themselves - getting there, designated drivers, places to stay, etc.
It may help to have a new thread, just for people to indicate whether they're coming or not, and whether they'd want sushi or not. Doug can decide if he wants people to pay in advance, or will trust them to show up and pay. Maybe a wrist band system will work for that part.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 26, 2009 - 10:49pm PT
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Dana B,
We've been reading some of these accounts of chronic compartment syndrome local to the forearm and the resultant surgeries.
Yes please, do forward what you found, or simply post the links here.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 26, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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Ezra,
Here's a link to a particularly difficult form of thoracic outlet compression (TOC), resulting in exercise induced ischemia:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1764965
When I described this to the vascular surgeon whom I recently saw, he said we could try a CT angiogram, while holding my arms in different positions.
Perhaps it's inappropriate to second-guess professionals on a forum such as this, but do you think your colleague would pursue a similar diagnostic avenue?
Is it possible you might run this by him?
Roy
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 26, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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Good thoughts MH. :D Have a Peace filled eve. lrl
Edit: I'm playing fantasy tonight. Pretending I am Ice Climbing a Waterfall in Iceland. Feeling in the brain what it may be like to place an ice screw or two. Then taking them Ice axes and placing them into the Ice. Whooheee !
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 26, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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Mighty Hiker,
Thanks for broaching the logistical concerns.
Some of those items we've discussed and it has been expressed a few of those items won't need further consideration.
(We being myself, Todd Gordon, Spencer Lennard, and Rick Accomazzo.)
If you wish to help coordinate, or likewise just highlight areas of concern which you think need more attention, I'd suggest copying what you just wrote and please forward it along to Rick and Spencer.
Todd Gordon of course will answer to some of those concerns.
He'll get it right here on the thread for certain.
I'm sure we could use some help.
I think attempting a head count is a really good idea.
And maybe a separate thread for logistics would be a good idea.
Let's get a consensus here before we do it.
(Doug already has his separate thread)
raccomazzo@bmalaw.com
bigwildlife@gmail.com
And thanks for asking earlier about my flight and transportation arrangements.
Lisa made these a few weeks ago, using a voucher she had for my flight.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 26, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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Tar,
Would be happy to run it by Mike. Thanks for the link, must sleep now. Don't know when the next time I'll see Mike at lunch. He trained under Debakey at Baylor, super smart and nice guy. The Throacic outlet compression also seems like a good possibility. We'll all be interested to find out what the answer is. Feel like we have a descent shot (better than 50%) of figuring this problem out.
-e
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 26, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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Thank You Ezra.
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matisse
climber
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Feb 26, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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Tar,
you said compartment syndrome was ruled out but you didn't say how. perhaps the pain is not in the right place. we can't see/tell that. But if it is someplace even remotely compartmentally , and if you have not had pre-post exercising compartment pressures, then it has not been ruled out.
The TOS is another great thought. If it was me I'd keep going on the vascular side of things. I don't think a rheumatologist will do much for you
good luck
Sue
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 26, 2009 - 11:44pm PT
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Yah, Ezra .... thank you from all of us for your time and concern for a major mate on the taco. Really ! Peace and Joy to you. Lynne ....Good Life to Ya. :DD
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 26, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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Matisse,
I have known about the ICP for some time, and pressed the vascular surgeon on it.
(It's been ruled out through, history, palpation (physical exam), and Doppler)
I don't know why CS has been ruled out without doing further testing; but he's not the only MD to feel no need to push further in that direction.
Concurring with the vascular surgeon (on CS), are two neurologist's, a physiatrist and a neurosurgeon.
TOS/TOC,
Read the link above.
Regardless of that information, I've had numerous doctors rule this out. The last one, a neurologist, said my thoracic pulse is a bit slow to come on, but fine. Nevertheless, she recommended I see a vascular surgeon which I did and have reported on his findings above.
He suggested a CT angiogram if I felt like I wanted to throw some money at it, but really wasn't thinking himself that this is where we need to go.
If you follow this thread from the top you will see how we arrived at covering the rheumatology base. My primary care physician who specializes in metabolic issues and sees a wide range of patients presenting with all kinds of systemic anomalies, didn't think I needed to go with rheumatology.
Slippery stuff.
Thanks very much for chiming in here.
Roy
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2009 - 12:02am PT
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So ....
The conclusion after all this bullsh'iting here is
You're toast.
Better start drinking that gold silver cocktail .......
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 27, 2009 - 12:04am PT
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Maybe I'll bring Roy some vitamin M. I bet he hasn't tried that yet.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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We know I am toast Werner.
Nobody seems to be able to find the butter.
Or Ghee if you prefer...
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2009 - 12:11am PT
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Stop eating everything and just eat liquid rice. Basmati
You got blockage, you need to clean all the tubes and the blood.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 27, 2009 - 12:43am PT
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Mighty Hiker;....excellent and well thought out questions.....awesome feedback;...thanks....I can throw some light on these questions, as , I would image, others were wondering or thinking the same.
Portable toilets;....well, if someone brings one, we'll use it. I will announce (and probably have some written signs) saying, to save water and my septic tank, pee outside if possible, and lay pipe before ya come over if possible;...if not, feel free to " drop the kids off in the pool" .....I just had my septic pumped 1 or 2 years ago, so I should be mint.
Kegs;....You know, we buy kegs for parties here quite often;....it seems like they get foamy, and alot of beer is wasted, and if/when cops come, they think kegs encourage underage drinking.......I personally think people should just bring their own beverage;....and the boozers ALWAYS come prepared.....wouldn't consider NOT coming prepared......Kegs are stinky, and nobody ever wants to return them "when the day is done...."
Sound system......We have 2 or 3 options for the slideshow......one show inside (up to 150 people probably), or two shows inside ( if need be), or one big honkin' show outside, which is fine too, if it ain't windy.......all up to Sir Bullwinkler.......he can even wing it and make up his mind the night of.......as long as he has his computor, a place to plug in and a screen (which I have)....he's golden.....If someone has a PA system, that would be cool, but I don't think it's mandatory;....Dean if full of hot air and can spout enough to be heard.
Clean up;.....Our friends are cool, and ALWAY have, in the past, cleaned up after parties here.....get about 10 or 15 people the morning after for 30 min.....and the place is usually cleaner than before the guests arrived....it's never been an issue.....(and the hobos scramble for the recyclables anyways.....it's a windfall for the economically challenged.....)
Emergencies
Wing it......there will be doctors, dentists, lawyers, and Indian Chiefs......all emergencies will be covered in a need to know basis......and with Bullwinkle and Tucker Tech there.....well;...there is two experts in ALL SUBJECTS.....so we are good to go.
Sushi
Not my department......I'm sure the Sushi farmers will have a plan;.....it will be fun.
Money
The idea is to raise money to help out our friend , Roy , who is struggling with a physical disability, and needs help financially;....this is something we can all do..I realize that money is tight for everyone this day and age;...but never too tight to help a friend......it's not that big of a deal......$20.00 minimum, and for those who are blessed with more ch-ching than most, pony up more if you can......it's good karma, the right thing to do, and something that climbers, who are notorious cheap bastards, still are really good at;...sharing what they have with their ropemates......be it a beer, a ride, a tent, a meal, a rack, a lead, a shower, a place to crash,....and in this case, a few fins for a bro in need.
Bodyguard for Roy;......he's a ham;...he loves the attention.....he'll be like David Hasselhof in Europe;.....quite a popular guy.
As for my job......I'll probably do what I do before most big parties here at the Gordon Ranch;......maybe clean up the bathroom (that's a big maybe....), put the kids toys away so no one trips on them, tell Mayville he has a 2 drink maximum, and then I go climbing........
This place is perfect for a party;...lots of parking, lots of room, only a few neighbors within earshot, lots of room, big living room, not alot of stuff that can be broken, easy to find location....and with it being a one night only , one shot event....no permit needed.....it's just a party at a private residence.....cops are cool as long as their is NO UNDER AGE DRINKING....which is about the only thing that needs to be seen to.....There really isn't even much to prepare.....just the sushi stuff, but I think Doug and his crew are pros.......it's sort of just show up, have fun, eat, drink, and be merry....and help out Roy "Beadwagon" McClannahan.......
It's best to arrange your own lodging, but for the rummies.....sure....throw down a bag in the desert and sober up.....don't drink and drive ANYWHERE......don't even think about it......be vigil on this one too......
We are trying to have music too...that would be very cool....we shall see;...I'd love it.
See ya all soon;....it should be a fun one. It's sort of a no brainer as to being way fun;...the So Cal crowd is a fantastic comglamofunk of very wonderful humans;....we have gathered together in mass many times before with great fun , success, and lots of surprises........ Any question, comments or ideas....please call.
Todd Gordon (760) 366-9395
Please no dogs....this is a people party, and probably not the best party for kids either.....there will be enough childish behavior as it is...........my own kids will be elsewhere that evening as things start rolling.....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 27, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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Todd, Looks Good!
Just wish I were there. Say are yo practicing for the "Off Wydth Wyde One" That Russo is proselytizing +
I would arrive to cheer you on, and it'd be fun watchin the rest. Lynnie
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 27, 2009 - 01:35am PT
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Tar,
Sorry to be intermittent here - getting just slammed at work and just arrived here in Seattle for a technical conference through Sunday. Will get started on a cover early next week and think about how to get Dr. Perkins to look at this stuff ahead of time. Hang tough...
Joseph
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matisse
climber
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Feb 27, 2009 - 01:36am PT
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Roy,
Common things are common, and chronic forearm compartment syndrome isn't but that doesn't mean you can't have it. most if not all the common stuff has been ruled out, so you gotta go looking for exotica if you want to figure this out.
I can't second guess the people who have seen you, all I can say is that although chronic forearm compartment syndromes are rare, I don't think they can be excluded unless pressures are measured. Medicine is so subspecialized and so much of it is focused on the treatment of really sick barely alive people that sometimes this stuff goes by the wayside. All vascular surgeons are not equal. They may be great at the daily stuff and the trauma not that hot at sport med aspects. or maybe they are the greatest..whichever it is another look might be helpful. if the one you are seeing is interested in working through this, then maybe persist with them. if you are getting the brush off, time to find a new one. Sounds like your family doc is a good guy.
Patience and persistence, and ultimately most people find their answer one way or another. Good luck.
edited to add that brachial arterial entrapment or ulnar arterial entrapment could do it too.
also I've never seen a forearm one but I've seen a billion lower leg ones. once they get established you don't have to do much to get em, and they don't go away much after exercise., they just kind of hurt all the time
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 27, 2009 - 08:02am PT
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Todd
Wouldn't that be Cosmic with the porta potty
attached to the back of his truck?
hee hee hee. . .
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Feb 27, 2009 - 09:55am PT
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Thanks for puttin' it all into prospective Todd. Yeah the point here is to raise some ducats for the Roy Boy and his Misses. Lookin forward to the evening with all the knuckleheads at your compound. So gracious of you and the boys to organize this event, I'm sure everything will work itself out that evening! Shoot me an email as to how I can help, I'll be out early that weekend and will come on over to help dig the pee and poop pit!
Peace
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Feb 27, 2009 - 11:19am PT
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Hi Roy,
I can't post the articles, but I'll make copies and send them to you. I have your mailing address from a previous post.
Dana
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Feb 27, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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Also, if compartment syndrome seems possible, don't hesitate to contact the authors of the articles; they would almost certainly be very willing to speak to your physician and there should be contact information at the heading of each reprint.
Dana
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
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Dana,
Thanks for popping those in the mail.
Yes, as CCS of the forearm is clearly so rare, contacting those surgeons who've encountered and remedied it is exactly what I need to do.
Matisse,
Good input on what I don't present and on underscoring that CCS leads to persistent fatigue even in the absence of exercise.
"brachial arterial entrapment or ulnar arterial entrapment could do it too."
I hadn't come across ulnar arterial entrapment yet.
And again, as you and a few others have offered: underscoring the importance of accepting uncommon/incomplete presentation is key to staying on the diagnostic path and maintaining an open vigilance.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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As puzzles go, I think it's worth considering that I may be subject to something more along the lines of a syndrome.
I say this because I have potentially so many overlapping inputs to this disability.
Notwithstanding that I haven't tested ICP or undergone CT angiogram, nor consulted with those surgeons who dealt with such a rare form of compartment syndrome, isolation of straightforward etiology may be elusive.
Here is yet another clue which I have not outlined:
I have advanced gum disease, (due to Bruxism), which is increasingly being linked to risk for cardiovascular disease, and potentially for autoimmune problems. It's in remission, because I've undergone all kinds of efforts to stabilize it; such as oral surgery, orthodontics, and equilibration.
At times my physician, the guy who is big on interpreting deep level blood work, nutritional values, their support of various energy production cycles (Krebs cycle, cytochrome system, methylation & etc), has been adamant that he sees evidence of gum infection activity in my blood work, even though the oral surgeon says I'm stabilized. I believe elevated monocytes or IGM level is the indicator.
Sure enough, just recently, currently in fact, I'm back in the loop with the periodontist.
All along I've been really curious if a static/progressive microvascular congenital defect or disease might be at play. And I have to underscore how poorly my peripheral vascular system copes with cold exposure. I'm ridiculously intolerant in this arena.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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Not even to mention toxicity from plastics and petrochemicals, which of course is controversial, and equally controversial is chelation therapy to strip them out.
These are inferred from my IGE level in the Queen panel up thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
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I told you have blockage.
You also can not drink any alcohol or coffee. No meat of any kind no fish either. Fish eat all kinds of nasty stuff.
No eggs as they are very bad for you.
You need to get very very clean .....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
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Barring any straightforward mechanical etiology, which wasn’t coming up in numerous exams with a handful doctors from a diverse set of foci, I entertained the alternative inquiry into some of the perhaps less well supported type of analysis, as summarized below.
How many physicians can actively interpret the nine pages of data posted up thread, along with the composite analysis risk factors outlined below?
Obviously none of this directly relates to any particular pain such as I present in my arms locally, but if this is a syndrome, comprising numerous overlapping causal factors within my life experience…
From August 2007:
Presumably some, but not all, of this has been rectified,
as indicated by my retest of the organic acid portion of the initial data, posted up thread.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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Werner,
Essentially that sounds like a macro biotic diet without the fish.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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Macro biotic diet is bullsh'it too.
It will kill you.
You need some dairy but not over do it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 01:11pm PT
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I can appreciate various forms of elimination diets and have engaged in a few.
For six months I ingested zero alcohol, coffee, red meat, and dairy. I did intake wild salmon.
I was careful to choose fruits and vegetables low in acid and low in glycemic index.
I did this as an attempt to achieve more alkalinity.
Yes at a point you just have to try things.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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"You need some dairy but not over do it. "
The nutritional research upon which my doctor's advice rests suggests that some animal fats are required to mobilize toxins. There is evidence, though I doubt hard-won clinical evidence, that a strict vegan diet will lock toxins into the body.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 27, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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The nutritional research upon which my doctor's advice rests suggests that some animal fats are required to mobilize toxins.
Stay away from that guy then as he will screw you up.
You won't believe me but that doesn't matter.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
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haha.
I do value your input Werner.
I'm not clinging to many beliefs here; proofs to support them can be elusive.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 27, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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Tar
No alcohol. No coffee.
What would anyone want to live for????
(sorry, had to have a bit of levity here). . .
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larabee
Trad climber
Cottonwood Arizona
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Feb 27, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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I'll be there brother...I cherish all the years we climbed and hung out together....see you there..I'll drag Freriks along with me.
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
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Feb 27, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
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Gawd how I would love to be there! Not gonna be possible for me. However, I will participate in spirit and in kind.
Cowboy Hats off to Roy!
With prayers,
Buggs
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
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Werner,
I meant, when I said animal fats, to imply dairy & support what you'd said...
No matter, for that terse response,
You'll be getting either a noogie or wedgie and you won't know which until the day comes.
And 'cuz you may attempt escape from my scrawny grasp, Walleye will gladly assist I'm quite sure.
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MH2
climber
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Feb 27, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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I've been really curious if a static/progressive microvascular congenital defect or disease might be at play.
If you would like to re-cast that as a question or two I will ask a physician who is a specialist in that area. Caveat: in the last few weeks she has locked her keys in her car and on another occasion lost a set of car keys. The lost keys got returned by a stranger, though, so she may owe karma one.
I haven't caught up with what is going on here, but did see matisse say that medicine is well-equipped for short-term and especially life-threatening problems and not nearly so good at fixing chronic problems. True. We want answers but the strategy may come down to making a bad situation a little better. That is always possible.
Have any large-animal vets given you advice? Sometimes they know things that people docs don't. Compartment syndrome might be up their alley. One of them back in my home town found a pill that really helped my Mom's hay fever when other remedies hadn't done much.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 10:27pm PT
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MH2,
Thanks for the offer; yes I will try to elucidate that a bit more clearly. This will include a quick break down on a thing called Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome. Right now I need a break; my arms are absolutely shredded with all of this great back-and-forth I'm receiving here, voice-activated or not, so check back tomorrow night please (thanks for your patience).
And no, I haven't talked to any veterinarians.
I did get some DMSO at a horse and saddle kind of place, and picked up a bottle of glucosamine/chondroitin with Hyaluronic Acid and maybe collagen and stuff. The gal said: "yeah, this stuff is for horses, but my boyfriend is pretty beat up from construction, and he just gobbles the stuff and says it works."
...Plus a few bottles of various equestrian salves and appointments (HPQR & Thermaflex; both liniments), and some eucalyptus wraps for horse legs. None of it worked for me, but hey...
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 27, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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Tar,
All of that metabolic stuff was taught in basic science, but other than the mercury toxicity, increased homocystine and a few other things, we don't use it much in daily practice. If you have thrived as an adult (you current problems not with standing) it is some what unlikely that the krebs and glycolysis cycles are likely to be productive in a work up, in my opinion.
My opinion is biased by an evidence based philosophy (ie reproducible scientific clinical trials with randomization and placebo control).
Wishing you the best!
-e
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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Understood.
Thanks for making that plain.
I'm looking into targeting a vascular surgeon who's seen or hopefully dealt with the TOC & CCS we've been discussing, given the absence of standard presentation as I seem to show.
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jlf
Trad climber
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Feb 27, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
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God bless Roy and his quest for financial security; as interesting as it may be.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 27, 2009 - 10:55pm PT
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jlf, ?, Your kidding right'o ? Did I miss something ? Could be, had to work alot lately. Or are yo jess ......havin' an inside joke ? Cheers, lrl
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
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jlf
hahahahhaha.
I would call that an "out"side joke.
I knew you would back me up somehow Walleye.
You are a good man.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 27, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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Tar,
I didn't mean to sound like a total prick, I just don't incorporate that in to my daily practice. My wife has had amazing results with acupuncture treating her chronic asthma, I have seen reproducible results with it and western medicine has almost no ability to explain why acupuncture works, so there is a lot out there that we can't explain. I guess when western medicine fails us (as it often does) it makes sense to seek other avenues.
best, -e
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 27, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
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Ezra,
I appreciate your perspective. I know that stuff is unconventional, and at a certain point, unschooled as I am, I'm a consumer, not an expert and could be taken in by any number of alternative approaches. I can see how I may have pushed it out there a little strongly, so I apologize for any of that; ultimately it's not my place to defend these unproven approaches because I don't have the tools.
Having straightahead doctors, such as yourself, come forth on this thread and bracket some of this for me is very useful, and I need this to make sense of my options and smartly assess choices. Your initial appraisal was accurate (I know it’s not evidence based medicine) and I value your reflection.
Cheers,
Roy
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Feb 28, 2009 - 08:28am PT
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Hey Ezra,
I sure would like to chat with your wife about her asthma and acupuncture.
Thanks,
Prod.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Feb 28, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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Prod,
Wife said she would be happy to communicate via e-mail. E-mail me with asthma in the subject title and I will forward it to her.
ezraellis@hotmail.com
Tar, no need to apologize, it is great how hard you are working to resolve your health issues, so many people sit passively by and do nothing.
Best, -e
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 28, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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Stonemaster
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Feb 28, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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Too cool, an ancient boulderer.
Did you make that or find it? Is it real? (or real good photoshop?)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 28, 2009 - 07:07pm PT
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It's real and it's a sculpture on a boulder in the forest below the Grand Wall at Squamish. It was created in the late 1960s, and is about a metre high.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 28, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
|
So I'm gone for a while then come back to find that this thread, well-inspired to
begin with, has evolved into the Taco's finest hour. Never seen more thoughtfulness
and sincerity, everybody chipping in what they can (and for some that's quite a lot).
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 28, 2009 - 09:19pm PT
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MH2,
Per your suggestion, I’ve recast the question.
As you said you hadn’t read the thread, I’ve embedded my primary symptom and the question (both in bold) within a concise history.
Thank you,
Roy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Male patient, 48 years of age, physically fit and active.
Presents with intransigent forearm fatigue, bilateral, medial compartments, 12 years.
(complicated with persistent bi-lateral, lateral epicondylitis/tendonosis)
Additionally presents extreme cold sensitivity to all extremities, yet capillary refill is robust.
Vasodilators at the arteriole level, two week course, give no relief to cold symptoms
(nifedipine, time release)
No history of major surgeries or protracted medication.
Severe concussion, age 12.
Initial physical exams negative for compartment syndrome and thoracic outlet compression.
3 mm bulge at C5/6 confirmed with MRI at C-spine; deemed irrelevant by neck/neurosurgeon.
Three consecutive nerve conduction studies over eight years, negative.
Although presenting symptoms for diagnoses are incomplete, the following are suspected:
Chronic Compartment Syndrome:
inter compartmental pressure has not been tested; doppler yields a negative
http://www.jbjs.org.uk/cgi/reprint/78-B/5/780
Exercise-Induced Thoracic Outlet Compression:
CT angiogram during a variety of positions has not been performed; thoracic pulse is good
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1764965
Following exclusion of these two diagnoses listed above, could a congenital microvascular insufficiency be further complicated with the following aggregate, so as to precipitate permanent bilateral forearm fatigue?
Cardiovascular risk factors collateral to gum disease
Peripheral trauma to the hands from severe second-degree frostbite injury
10 years of sustained rockclimbing at five days per week
7 additional years of sustained fine motor skill work at a sewing machine at six days per week
Adrenal fatigue
High level of homocysteine
At year 17 of consecutive repetitive stressors: rapid onset of bilateral forearm fatigue occurs
Note that following the combined 17 years of repetitive stress noted above, the 12 ensuing years have encompassed a 70-90% reduction in said stressors, with little to no recovery.
(I’m leaving any detail or a link to Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome out; I mentioned that I would include it because I had heard that it can be caused by damage to blood vessels; frostbite in my case.
So many of the presenting symptoms are so severe and I just don’t show them, that I didn’t run it down any further, but I thought someone familiar with that syndrome might be able to cross-link that particular causal factor and it’s propagation routine.)
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MH2
climber
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Tarbuster,
I've gone back and had a look from the beginning of the thread. From what I see there is a Hell of a lot more that is right and good about you and your past than this medical trouble amounts to, whatever it is. You are a great guy and have an amazing history.
On the specific question of a possible congenital defect I will quiz my wife. When I mentioned the forearm weakness last night she just said, "repetitive-use injury." I know it isn't that simple but that could still be a fair part of it.
What radical said seemed about right to me:
Could be just a plain old overuse injury and severe tendonitis after years and years of climbing.You are off the grid for just about all docs and medical books
Especially the part about being outside the norm for most docs. Your forearms are unlikely to be middle-of-the-road forearms. If I remember rightly there are a lot of adaptations when you use particular muscles heavily, such as increased capillarity, that could perhaps make the usual diagnostic tests for particular conditions unreliable in your case.
Strange that you can have weakness with no (detected) nerve involvement or altered sensation. Also in one of the earliest posts on symptoms there was the phrase "searing pain." I understand it only happens with use but it sounds unusually intense.
Please overcome any inclination you may have to respond to this post. I have a suspicion that your excellent and well-directed motivation may in a sense be doing you in, here. Slack off a little, man.
Very best wishes,
Andy Cairns
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Tar,
That summary you just wrote is a great cover letter,
I would only add 2nd degree frost bite in '84 (as part of the main history)
best, -e
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spectreman
Trad climber
CO
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The people I have treated with RSD (Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy) have severe and constant pain in the involved extremity with hypersensitivity to the point where they cannot tolerate clothing touching the skin or any type of manual contact. They also exhibit sympathetic nervous system changes as they relate to vasodialation and constriction and they can start to have skin changes due to poor circulation in the extremity.
A non-specific Thoracic Outlet Syndrome is a possibility. It is common to exhibit some symptoms of TOS without having any positive Dopplar or EMG/NCV results. You can have mild and transient compression of neural components. Usually compression will occur in the scalene triangle, between the first rib and clavicle, or under pec-minor. Worthwhile to have a skilled manual therapist check these compression sites. Also worthwhile to have a manual therapist perform neural gliding stretches to evaluate movement of the three primary nerves into the arms. I will be glad to perform a one hour manual therapy consultation free of charge if you want to make the trip to Ft. Collins to my clinic. Just let me know. I can also donate several sessions of ASTYM if you think it is a tendinosis problem.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Okay MH2,
One brief question:
Anybody ever heard of localized mitochondrial dysfunction as a result of severe overuse?
And in the same vein, how about cross fiber challenge from competing activities producing permanent muscle damage?
E-mail out to you Specter Man; I'll take you up on you're generous offer.
Thanks Fellas.
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MH2
climber
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Good news, I think.
My wife sees no reason to suspect any congenital type syndrome in your symptoms.
She guesses compartment syndrome could be it and the great thing there is that it can perhaps be substantially relieved by surgery. I read the short paper matisse linked to.
My wife also says that Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy is usually more intense and constant pain than you seem to have, although she points out that that comes partly from the fact that in order to get the diagnosis that level of pain should be there, a kind of catch-22 perhaps. She says that frostbite could cause sympathetic dystrophy and that there could be milder forms that would not be necessarily diagnosed as such.
I'm not really the person to answer your latest questions. I have read in the lay press or somewhere that mitochondria not only have their own DNA, they also, not individually but as a collective in any one person, have their own natural life span that is somewhat shorter than our own. They don't suddenly check out but they do begin to fade, starting roughly at age 50. One many changes that come with age.
Tarbuster, you have a fine mind and great strength of character. Any employer would be lucky to get you. I re-trained as a nurse at age 50 in an 18 month program. I now work with oldies who have in the head what you have in the forearm. Well, in a manner of speaking. Science has trouble figuring out conditions like yours that come on gradually over years. It is hard to do studies other than epidemiology on that time scale.
If a fasciotomy can fix your arms, though, then we won't have to worry what is going on down at the molecular level.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Thank you MH2
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Robb
Social climber
It's like FoCo in NoCo Daddy-O!
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Bump - Back to the front page for Monday morning.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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I'm going to print up a few very very special images for this event, one of a kind, one time only, StoneMaster images I made, from my vault. Photo's that I've never printed or shown and will not be in the Book. . .df
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Roy,
It is quite heartwarming to see the topians coming out
in force to seek a solution and offer support. This
really is a good bunch, quite varied talents and skills,
and not slow to offer it up.
Climbing is great, no doubt, BUT life is really about
people and relationships. And it's gooood when it
functions as it was designed.
Doug
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Tar,
Spoke to my vascular surgeon friend 'bout the CT-Angiogram, said he would NOT have that procedure.
He said the intra-compartmental pressure testing might be worth a try and would probably go that route.
He again reiterated that it is a technically difficult procedure (the ICP testing).
Best,
-e
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Great feedback Ezra.
Excellent offering Bullwinkle.
Very nice words Flanders...
LuvU2T*R
Thanks Everybody!
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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" I'll try to make it...."'
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Yeah Todd, I WAS going to show up for Roy The Boy Toy, but since she is coming for the event....I'll be there again!
This needed a bump for maculated.....be there Kristin and bring ALL yer friends, climbers or non climbers.
Peace
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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Auction stuff is pouring in...It's going to be a great night.
Rick
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Thanks to all who have been sending checks!
Spent some today on MAT: a manual physical therapy aimed at revitalizing/balancing chronically spasmed/splinted muscles...
Specter Man has donated a physical therapy evaluation for Friday the 13th. How auspicious!!!
Rheumatology appointment on March 31.
Still looking for the best doctor to test intracompartmental pressure.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Swingers welcome...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Bolton has threatened to show up.........but he has a 10 beer limit....or else he gets all wiggly, gushy, and gay......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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It shouldn't be too crowded....we have lots of room anyways...(Line for the sushi bar...)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Come join in;..you'll have a blast....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Bullwinkle, jess what are these special images...? Need to make my benefit bucks go toward something great for the familia. Smiles, Lynne
edit: not bolton "unchained" I hope. heheheh
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Tar, I'm back and a few minutes breathing room.
I keep coming back to the bilateral nature of your symtoms - what can account for that? And the localization, what accounts for that?
Those two, for me, keep tending to rule out congenital, metabolic, toxicological, and systemic (gum disease, diabetes) possibilities though I'm just guessing as a layman. What's left is repetitive injury, sport-related trauma, frostbite, some form of [bilateral] constriction/entrapment of nerves, arteries, and/or veins - or a combination thereof. That, or rheumatology-related problems, so I'd still follow through on the [url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=ZECuSdmfAqCSsQO907CwDg&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=forearms+bilateral+rheumatology&spell=1" target="new"]Rheumatologist appointment[/url].
In general, I can't get any bead on how the cold intolerance fits into all this - the microvascular thing seems more like a systemically presenting deal and mostly associated with diabetes.
I want to stew a couple of days on your cover letter, I do have some initial thoughts but would like to wait until I have a bit more time to go over it. In the meantime, there are some interesting articles in [url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=forearms+vascular+bilateral&start=10&sa=N" target="new"]this google search[/url] including a German one where forearm pressures were measured in [url="http://bjsm.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/38/4/422" target="new"]climbers with regard to CECS[/url] which includes the email for a [url="mailto:volker.schoeffl@t-online.de" target="new"]Dr. Volker Schoeffl[/url]. I don't have the time at the moment, but I'd say it would be worth contacting them and [url="http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=+pressures+of+the+forearm+flexor+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f" target="new"]tracking down some U.S. specialists[/url] in such measurements to at least understand what's required to properly in a case like yours.
P.S. Never heard back from Collier or Nelson, but they're likely busy folks or hesitant to talk with a third party.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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There will be 6 girls for every guy........
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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I'm hangin with you Todd.....uh my wife says rethink it!
Peace
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Joseph,
I've captured the two reports (weight training and climbing specific CECS) and e-mailed Dr. Schoeffl in Germany.
I'll continue to route through those Google pages and see what I can come up with here in the states.
I'll be seeing SpecterMan next week for PT, and he posited compartment syndrome some time ago, prior to this thread, (suggesting fasciotomy as surgical recourse) so I think he will have some referral contacts.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Schoeffl is the co-author of One Move Too Many, a bit dated now but still the best-climbing specific sports med book in English.
He's been up close and personal with compartment syndrome: according to that section of the book, either he or his co-author had to get surgery for it.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Happy to see so many willing to get involved...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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OK, Dude, what then is the ratio for guy to gal....? :}
6 girls for @ every guy ='s how many guys for every gal...Hint, cannot be the same ratio.
Need a human good at math for this problem. Cheers and looking for the answer. LrL
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
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needs to be bumped
Peace
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
|
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Lynne... Oh! Oh! I know that one!
Let's see...6 girls for @ every guy means that every girl gets 1/6th of a guy. What 17% do you want/need?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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Even Jan & Dean only promised "Two girls for every boy".
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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I'd be happy to have two ladies. . . if'n I could be there. . .
bwaaaaaaaah!!!!111
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mine says as soon as I'm meeting all her needs I'm welcome to as many as I can handle...
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
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Bumped this for the Hankster! And Roy of course.
Peace
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Ihateplastic.....and good at math.
Question: can I save up my 17%'s til I get just one whole? Not thinking bits and pieces are that grate. :D lrl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
Doesn't it depend on which bits and pieces you get?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Bits and Pieces....need Cosmic for this. Plezzzz put together the perfect guy...in 17 % pieces...clothing is not optional but mandatory....says a family member lookin' ovah my shoulda.
(The spy's are everywhere....it's a wonder I make it everyday. :}
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
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You don't need to, Lynnie--Tarbuster is it. No 17% solution. . .
But he's already taken. . . . :-)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Thanks to Piton Ron,
I spent an hour on the telephone last night with a rheumatology doc.
He spoke with me at length concerning symptoms and reviewed my blood work, history, & EMG/nerve conduction studies.
He understood and underscored the distinction between fatigue/weakness/pain
(my bilateral muscle problem is primarily experienced as persistent and provokable fatigue, while the corresponding lateral and radial tendon problem is expressed as transient and provokable pain)
The skinny:
MCV is fine
ANA screen indicates no need for individual antibody workup
CPK is fine
vascular/muscular/neurological/anatomical components are un revealing
compartment syndrome: he's not buying it without collateral nerve issues
Nevertheless, when I mentioned inter compartmental pressure testing for chronic exertional compartment syndrome in the forearm may be difficult to test, he then concurred that I need to isolate the physicians who have intervened in the handful of cases extant.
(Dr. Schoeffl, from Germany, who has studied inter compartmental pressure in healthy climber's forearms, returned my e-mail query on the matter and said anybody who has the device for measuring ICP in the calf muscle should be able to do it in the forearm)
The rheumatologist I spoke to last night added that if I want constructive input at this point that I need to seek a specialist in muscle or neuromuscular disease; never mind what they call themselves.
If it's a rheumatologist who I might directly query, muscle disease has to be their focus, but he indicated that at this level of engagement, those practitioners best suited with the problem would rise above any independent definition of practice such as neurology, rheumatology and etc...
He narrowed it down to programs at three facilities:
National Institute of health in Bethesda Maryland
Washington University in St. Louis
UCLA
It turns out we both knew the first rheumatologist who I saw back in 1991/92 and that Dr., coincidentally, has been struggling with a very strange neuromuscular problem of his own which presents only during eccentric contractions and when he engages muscles likewise, his CPK (I think that was it) shoots through the roof.
I also got a note back from the office of one of the better hand surgeons around and they'd never done any inter compartmental pressure testing in the forearm.
Have a good weekend everybody!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
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Roy,
Man, that sounds really helpful in starting to really hone down both the problem definition and the resources needed to address it. Will be in touch later this weekend...
Joseph
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
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Mike is a no BS, very well informed doc.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Sure want to see you well, but to go to St. Louis for it...desperation man! Desperation! Heh heh.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Good point.
I'll be sure to get compartmental pressure variants looked at BEFORE I go to St. Louis.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
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Hi Roy, was talking to Mike an hour ago while he and his son Alex were driving to San Diego.
Before we got cut off he sounded pleased to have given you some leads.
Then all I heard him say was, "There isn't a restroom for a hundred miles. Do you want me to,... "
Sounds like another epic in the making.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dr. Mike is a helpful, inquisitive, and patient man.
I mean, he stayed with me even as I strayed briefly into details concerning my wife's blood work and her mountain running career...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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That is indeed a rare physician for this daily day...of endless hours, govt. regulations, paperwork, and so many cut backs in insurance reimbursement. Cheers to yo Sir. I salute you. LRL
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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I can't see...I can't see.....I can't see.....( I can't see missing this party....)...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
Does this mean if I miss the party, the yolk will be on me? Or that I'm a yolkel?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
Well, I sho hope I don't.....miss the partee, that is. Got my casa lined up and hoping to bring a friend or two.
Hey, Gordo we may be out at the Tree Sunday. Taking the kiddos around Ryan Campground area...possibly Headstone Rock, south face...if yo and your son want to join us. :D
EDIT: Hi Mighty Hiker ! Come see us in So Cal in April !!!!!!
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
It will be hopping.....
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Pennsylenvy
Big Wall climber
Fry Canyon, UT
|
|
Making my plans around this. What a win -win . Let's all have a gud time and raise some $$$. Still trying to brainstorm $$$$raising ideas....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Me too, never been, should be quite the time. Will jaybro be there do upsidedown things?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
So what's happening with the band, Cactus Dudes, are yo showing up ? Heard you at Stephanies party. You are pretty darn great !
Peace on a super cool Sunday. lrl
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Tan Slacks
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
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Hi Lynne,
The date has been carved in stone. See you there.
Cactus Pricks
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
|
|
Tar,
The Rheum doc you spoke to sounds very reasonable and competent.
He's definitely correct you don't need additional antibody testing if you have a negative ANA (sorry if i missed that).
I wouldn't worry about your elevated MCV that much either.
However, I would still take B12/folate supplementation, and know that you ARE at increased risk for clotting and atherosclerosis due to elevated homocystine levels. I have seen clots in fairly young people (40s-50s) due to elevated homocystine levels. Granted yours is barely elevated.
Did he say if you'd benefit by seeing another rheumatologist at the end of march?
Best,
-e
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Tar,
Got overwhelmed with work over the weekend - will have time tonight to look at it.
If the whole anitbodies / autoimmune thing is ruled out then it would seem you're honing in one pretty tight on the TOS / CECS sorts of things, even if possibly complicated by the whole frostbite thing.
It would still be interesting to know if the whold viagra/calais thing would have any impact, or even some niacin just prior to climbing.
I've used niacin for outdoor work where my fingers are exposed in fingerless gloves by loosely taping heater packs to the undersides of my wrists and eating well to keep my core temp fueled. It works surprisingly well at getting blood to the extremities and keeping fingers warm.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Ezra,
The rheumatology doctor I spoke with on the phone was of the opinion that if I should see another rheumatologist, they should specialize in muscle desease.
When I countered the muscle disease tact with the idea that this is local he said:
"How do you know it isn't on its way to your legs or elsewhere, albeit slowly?"
I still have my rheumatology appointment for the end of the month (been deliberating on canceling that).
I'm thinking I need to fly to see one of the doctors that has performed a fasciotomy for CECS.
Niacin:
'had plenty, doesn't really help, even if I work up to over 1000 mg doses. As far as the heat packs are concerned; I never go outside in the winter without them.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
|
|
Tar,
Your local rheum has a point, after all the frigging testing that's been done maybe it's worth ruling everything out. I can't advise you on what to do there.
As for the vascular docs for compartments testing, you could try local first, or just go strait for the experts. A good local guy with an open mind could do the testing and confirm or deny increased ICP, and perform the surgery too. But can you find a local who's never diagnosed it before and who has an open mind? Again I can't advise.
If you know that even if a local vascular guy gets a negative result for increased ICP, and you will then go to the experts in the field, than skip the local guy.
I guess it all comes down to ruling out everything versus accepting some doubt (even if the level of doubt is very small).
Best
-e
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 10, 2009 - 12:55am PT
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Tan Slacks, Great news ! Life is not really "whole" without the musica. Perfect ! Anything I can do to help let me know. You guys are great for being at this event. Lynnie
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Tui
Boulder climber
SD
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Mar 10, 2009 - 01:55am PT
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Miracles happen here all the time. www.ibethel.org Why not try it. You have nothing to lose by going there. Seriously.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Mar 10, 2009 - 10:42am PT
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Live music from the world's greatest garage band;....and , for those who are aware;...the band is made up of climbers....Don Ried, Big Al Bartlett, Dan Zacks, and Mike (non-climber.....so he is the only sane one....).....sure to be an evening to remember......Let the music move you, or just stand there and stare in disbelief.........Time to shake your booty, shake your money maker, and throw it down....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 10, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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That's great news!
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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Roy,
That should take care of the PA system we talked about!
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Mar 12, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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this needs a bump, so here ya go!
Peace
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 12, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
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A phenomenal response by all you nice people.
Dana sent me a packet rich with case reports on compartment syndrome of the forearm; adding quite a lot to many of the links that we've been mulling over here.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 12, 2009 - 11:59pm PT
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I'll bring my tambourine...course won't interfere with ze band.....:D Peace and Fun, lynnie....Looking Forward !
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mar 13, 2009 - 10:38am PT
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Hey Lynne--is that a GREEN tambourine????
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Mar 13, 2009 - 10:54am PT
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Royboy... er... Tar,
I don't think I can make it to the shindig, but if you go for the tent revival as advised a few posts up I'll be there for that one, and I'm taking acid.
Prod.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
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Music from the legendary Cactus Pricks, slides from Dean, memorabilia auction,tall climbing tales...It will be quite a night.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Mar 15, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
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Here it comes;....
Is the Sushi still on?
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:00am PT
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donny lou reed, that's what I'm talking about.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:30am PT
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SteveW....starting out with the red and working on over to the green tamborine. Heard the Cactus Band at Stephanie's Birthday Party over Thanksgiving ...... they Rocked pretty good :DD lrl
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:32am PT
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hey there lynne gal!... say, HAPPY eve to you!... god bless! just passing through some post tongiht, then i got to go edit....
i am a happy camper... my new rat-mouse is working...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:35am PT
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hey there tarbuster... say, hope you are faring well, these days... just dropped in to say god bless...
just happened to run into ol' lynne first, through...
:)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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Tar,
Hey, my apologies for only now getting back to you on your letter. My only real comment on going over it again is to add high-level' to the description of your climbing and 'otherwise very' to your initial description - I think they need to know you're a lifelong high-performance athlete and not just a continuing weekend warrior type. Otherwise I'd say you're good to go.
Now I just need to sort out a flight, and I'm guessing if I rent an SUV or minivan I can just crash in it somewhere on the premises or nearby or in the park? Again, I've never been in that neck of the woods so don't know my way around at all.
Any word from that German doc at all...?
Joseph
---------------------------------------------------------
Male patient, 48 years of age, otherwise very physically fit and active.
Presents with intransigent forearm fatigue, bilateral, medial compartments, 12 years.
(complicated with persistent bi-lateral, lateral epicondylitis/tendonosis)
Additionally presents extreme cold sensitivity to all extremities, yet capillary refill is robust.
Vasodilators at the arteriole level, two week course, give no relief to cold symptoms
(nifedipine, time release)
No history of major surgeries or protracted medication.
Severe concussion, age 12.
Initial physical exams negative for compartment syndrome and thoracic outlet compression.
3 mm bulge at C5/6 confirmed with MRI at C-spine; deemed irrelevant by neck/neurosurgeon.
Three consecutive nerve conduction studies over eight years, negative.
Although presenting symptoms for diagnoses are incomplete, the following are suspected:
Chronic Compartment Syndrome:
inter compartmental pressure has not been tested; doppler yields a negative
http://www.jbjs.org.uk/cgi/reprint/78-B/5/780
Exercise-Induced Thoracic Outlet Compression:
CT angiogram during a variety of positions has not been performed; thoracic pulse is good
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1764965
Following exclusion of these two diagnoses listed above, could a congenital microvascular insufficiency be further complicated with the following aggregate, so as to precipitate permanent bilateral forearm fatigue?
Cardiovascular risk factors collateral to gum disease
Peripheral trauma to the hands from severe second-degree frostbite injury
10 years of sustained, high-level rockclimbing at five days per week
7 additional years of sustained fine motor skill work at a sewing machine at six days per week
Adrenal fatigue
High level of homocysteine
At year 17 of consecutive repetitive stressors: rapid onset of bilateral forearm fatigue occurs
Note that following the combined 17 years of repetitive stress noted above, the 12 ensuing years have encompassed a 70-90% reduction in said stressors, with little to no recovery.
(I’m leaving any detail or a link to Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome out; I mentioned that I would include it because I had heard that it can be caused by damage to blood vessels; frostbite in my case.
So many of the presenting symptoms are so severe and I just don’t show them, that I didn’t run it down any further, but I thought someone familiar with that syndrome might be able to cross-link that particular causal factor and it’s propagation routine.)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:05am PT
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neebee, howdy there Gal ! As always, you are the Best ! Wish I could be as upbeat as yo are all the time. Best to all your endeavours. Lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:07am PT
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Yo Nature, good question posted.....Is the Sushi still on ??? Peace to you and loving my Yoga classes. Boy do they lend alot to the physical, mental and breathe life of a human. I recommend Highly. lynnie
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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yes. though so far I have a grand total of $30 to spend on fish. but i'll work on that soon.... hehe
edit: i need to visit with locker and cosmic among the many other reason i will make the effort/journey
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troutboy
Trad climber
Newark, DE
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Mar 18, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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All,
I thought I had a job conflict, but it got cancelled.
So, if I can swing it, will there be enough folks out there to be able to find a partner for some days before or after. Too far to come for a weekend only. Anyone willing to climb with a decrepit 50-year old, 135-pound weakling like me ?
I really need a Josh fix.....
Tim S
Edited to add - Will climb any grade with any competent person, but self depricating remarks above notwithstanding, I'm comfy leading up to mid-10s and following slightly harder.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Mar 18, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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troutboy, as long as yer climbing ez stuff, I'm 50 y/o, fat and outa shape. I'll climb with you. I'll bring my fly rod, we''l do some casting as well!
It will be a good time for you... promise.
Peace
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 19, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
|
Not necessarily directly relevant, but interesting nonetheless:
[url="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090315155110.htm" target="new"]Blocking Protein May Help Ease Painful Nerve Condition[/url]
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 19, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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Joseph,
Yes the German doctor who conducted studies of climbers and their intercompartmental forearm pressure did return my e-mail. His opinion was that anybody who has dealt with compartment syndrome in the leg and has the pressure testing device, is suitably trained to test pressures in the arm.
(I don't necessarily agree, given all the case studies and research which I have on hand... and keeping in mind that I am really out-of-the-box with my presentation, lacking as I am in swelling and pain upon palpation)
I am currently undergoing a therapeutic regime known as ASTYM.
Diagnostically, this is conclusive that I have a high degree of fibrosis in my forearm muscle tissue and this condition would precipitate muscle ischemia (the outstripping of my blood supply as a result of sustained fine motor work activity).
There are clinical studies supporting ASTYM's efficacy and I will have those in hand shortly.
The ASTYM practitioner is a climber and a physical therapist with 20 years experience. He as well has dealt with plenty of compartment syndrome presentations in the lower leg and just can't produce or deduce findings of compartment syndrome in my arms.
(We think we have a lead on a local surgeon who has done a fasciotomy of a climber's forearm, so we will nevertheless pursue an opinion from the surgeon.)
He also performed manual nerve conduction studies known as neural gliding stretches: this, along with my recent EMG/nerve conduction studies, completely rules out any TOS or nerve compression. I'm totally solid throughout those examinations.
The degree of fibrotic tissue which I have in my forearm muscles bellies far exceeds that of any of his other patients; they typically show this in tendon attachments and not so much in muscles.
ASTYM is commonly prescribed for auto workers (assembly line) with repetitive strain, so we are going to look for some feedback within that arena, as this would fairly well model my experience with industrial sewing.
(I am going to cancel my local rheumatology appointment.
I will heed the advice of the rheumatology Dr. who suggested that notion only be pursued along the lines of a muscle specialist, likely engaged at a research facility.)
It may be that my muscles are particularly given to fibrotic accumulation; moreso than the average overworked individual. However the sustained nature of my self-employment as a contract sewer was far beyond any average output (easily approaching double what someone would experience in a 9-to-5, Monday through Friday scenario and for a number of years), so that goes some distance in describing a history to support my condition, never mind rockclimbing.
You will be able to park your van at Todd's the night of the party and stay there. Although given the available space, not everybody can do this, and as many will have campsites or hotel rooms, there is some room and consideration for those who have had too much to drink to just stay put.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 19, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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"...there is some room and consideration for those who have had too much to drink...
Good to know, as I plan on being one of those and would prefer not to be out on the roads if I don't need to be...
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mar 19, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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healy
You better have a round for me since I can't be there!!!
Bwwwaaaaaaaa!!!!
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Mar 19, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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Tar,
We all hope the ASTYM treatment works, The increased fibrosis also mechanistically makes sense.
Please put your extensive repetative work into your cover letter.
Best
-e
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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Mar 21, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
|
Bump. In case there's any news, and to keep it somewhere near the front page. Still hoping/planning to be there, and do a few climbs en route or while there.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
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Mar 21, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
|
"there is some room and consideration for those who have had too much to drink to just stay put".
Man, I want to be one of those!
The date is circled on my calendar. If the stars align I will make it.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Mar 21, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
|
We will be there as well.
I don't want to be one that has over indulged - and you guys don't want me to be either. I barf EASILY. What are your thoughts then on good places to crash with a camper (pop-up)? Dry lake bed - Home of the infamous J-Tree Sushi Fest?
Going to be a great party for sure! Can't wait!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 21, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
|
Anders, Crimpie and Dave....looking forward to seeing you guys there. It should be a royal blast. Lynne
Edit: Nature, what's happening with the sushi ? Can I help ?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 22, 2009 - 12:57am PT
|
Roy- What is your lucky number if 23 or less?
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
|
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Mar 22, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
|
I think I might be able to drag Bob Finn with me to this thing.
He's kind of balking, if any of you guys have his number, bug him, would ya?
I am fer-sure coming, I promised nature a hand.
It'll be great to see Roy, Todd and his kids, it's been way too long. (Never have met the little buggers, I think I met Andrea once about 10 years ago.)
Roy, Give ole Finn a call would ya?
hoss
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
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Mar 22, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
|
So what is the tally of people that have ponied up for the event?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Mar 22, 2009 - 04:16pm PT
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A guess....#163
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Mar 22, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
|
Jim Bridwell will be there;...saw him yesterday, and if anyone would like a little piece of climbing history, Jim is selling all his climbing gear;....N.America's greatest mountaineer....(Sort of like buying Tiger Wood's golf clubs...)......it will be one hell of an evening....and who wants to miss out on the rare chance to party down with The Bird....(This is not his first BBQ at the Gordon Ranch......) See you all soon....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Mar 22, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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Gotta up my guess now....#277.
Say ekat/Blinny if yo read this you're welcome to stay with me. I have a spot to stay Fri, Sat & Sun. nites. Not camping.. being a softy. Fly into Ontario or Sun Diego and have some fun, Gal. email if yo get this and you're interested. lrl
EDIT: I may have to wash my jeans for this one.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
|
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Mar 22, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Mar 22, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
|
If Jim eats sushi his buy-in is on me.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
|
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Mar 23, 2009 - 04:20am PT
|
I think I can get JL to showup and read some riffs from the book. . .
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
|
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Mar 23, 2009 - 04:21am PT
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post #420 is all mine. . .
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Mar 23, 2009 - 08:53am PT
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That is almost as good as getting post #69 Bullwinkle.
Prod.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
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Mar 24, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
|
To whom and where was it we could send auction items...?
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mar 24, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
|
healyje
I don't have Rick A's email address here. . .
but if you do a PM he should be able to tell you--though
if you're going to Todd's if you just took them along I bet that would work. When I get to work tomorrow I'll send it off to you.
(I told him to just tell me where to send the items to the winning bidder and I'd send the items to them).
Steve
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
|
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Mar 24, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
|
Karin & Wayne + 10 will be there !
What is the Sushi situation Nature? Still need an Easy-Up or two?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 24, 2009 - 06:42pm PT
|
Please e-mail Ricky concerning auction contributions.
raccomazzo@bmalaw.com
There will be a separate thread handling particulars of the auction, to include a list of the items offered,
This will be posted and routinely bumped beginning the first week in April.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Mar 24, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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I'm packed and pumped and it's still about a month away! Ya hoo ee
pack the wife kids, aunts and uncles, cousins, friends and even yer enemies, it's gonna be a blast in desert and a jam in the Josh.
Peace
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 24, 2009 - 07:27pm PT
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Thanks SteveW and Tar. Looking forward to it. It's shaping up to be an epic of grand proportions from the sound of it all. I won't be suprised if I hear a of new FA going up the next day called "Sushi Hurler".
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Mar 25, 2009 - 02:23am PT
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Let's see...
got my gear packed,
washed my jeans
two tambourines..
left work
guy was a jerk,
jess wantin' to make a break
headed for the desert,
gonna go so berserk
who cares ?
sooze and russ
making smores
owner of crossroads
throwin' peeps out the doors.
say that sounds like the makin's of a grate country western. somebody "feed" me.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Mar 25, 2009 - 02:48am PT
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Mar 25, 2009 - 02:51am PT
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Oh Yeah, ..... on the beat of four....
Let Us Rock...de Rock.
Edit: Yeah, Baby ! One of the bestest things a person can do for their life is get into music. So soothes the beast of the inner soul...and brings creativity and healing, hope and peace, joy and love ....this is the musica.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mar 29, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
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bump it for good
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bump-a-bump-bum...
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
|
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remember breeders no need to bring your offspring, there will be plenty of kids there already.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The Breeders and The Offspring are going to play the event! Tell all your friends that Bullwinkle said so!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Looking forward to "meeting and greeting the infamous stonemasters in a casual setting".
But I am seriously wondering when the book will be out for purchase. Want one.
Edit: cept for "breeders?" there would be no Bullwinkle.. jess sayin'. :D
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Bump for Tarbuster!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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So the countdown continues.....
Rock and Stone....
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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I remember some post saying the auction items might be pre-posted for our teasing! Any word on this??? Anything Ricky?
Peace
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couchmaster
climber
|
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Whoh, this is some heavy stuff that's been going along. Wow, Roy, good luck with this thing. I once had a roommate who would periodically go start raving mad like a lunatic. He was a real good guy otherwise. Jut periodically He'd wake up in the insane asylum in a straight jacket, on and off for many many years. Really. This temporary insanity was real, and he had no control over it. Doctors of every stripe look into it and gave up.
Later, after hearing of some food allergy problems some folks had, on his own, over many years of episodes he eventually found and learned that he was only allergic to Soy and soybean products. Turns out this is in almost all foods any more. Soy oil etc. However, he had to eat more than a little to kick the crazyness in. Eventually he figured this all out, but it was almost making him crazy trying to figure it out. Heres to hoping you can nail all this crazy sh#t down as well. Good luck.
Regards
Bill
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scuffy b
climber
Frigate Matilda
|
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Hey, back a few posts...
Behind Roy...
Looks like Tucker...
Is he drinking a BEER???
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Scruffy you should recognize that picture - it's from the Woodson Shindig!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Couchmaster:
I must say that is quite an interesting story.
I get temporary insanity, but I know what it's from: wrestling with voice-activated software !!!
Every now and then I get taken down to the mat and go temporarily wacko...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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The outpouring of support from all you generous folks is really quite a tribute to the power of our community.
I'm also really stoked that we have support of the band!!!!!!
Here's an update on a few items:
Roy’s April 25 Benefit Schedule:
Sushi : 5 p.m.
Auction : 7 p.m.
Slideshow : 8 p.m.
Sushi:
There will be an all you can eat sushi bar open from 5 p.m. to 6:30 p.m.
This will be available only through prepaid donations of $30.
Contact Doug Lafarge for payment: doug [at] lafarge.net
After 6:30, the remainder of the sushi will be sold à la carte on a first-come first-served walk-up basis.
Auction:
There has been a wonderful outpouring of donations for the auction.
We plan to hold it at 7:00-8:00 pm, just prior to Dean’s slideshow.
If you are interested in bidding and cannot attend, please find someone who will be present to be your proxy and bid for you. Cash or check only.
There is a lot of fine stuff here, but bear in mind that the purpose is to help Roy, so it’s ok if your bid exceeds the actual value!
Stay tuned to this thread for updates to the list.
Also posted here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=829079
All proceeds will go directly to Roy.
Here are just some of the confirmed items and their donors:
CLIMBING MEMORABILIA AUCTION ITEMS LIST
Randy Vogel
1. Topo Guide to Tahquitz & Suicide (1980) -- my first loose leaf guide. Signed and As New Condition.
2. Rock Climbs of Taquitz and Suicide Rocks (1992 - scarce reprint of 1985 edition with white paper covers) -- Signed and Near As New condition.
3. Guide to Tahquitz and Suicide Rocks (1993 -- by Bob Gaines and me) Signed by Bob Gaines and Myself, As New condition.
4. Joshua Tree Sport Climbing (1992 -- 1st edition --paper covers) Signed and As New condition.
5. Joshua Tree Supplement(1989 -- by Bartlett and me) Signed only by me. As New Condition.
6. Joshua Tree Rock Climbing Guide (1992) original printing. Signed, As New Condition.
7. Climber's Guide to Valle Azteca, Baja California (1995) Signed, As New.
8. The Climbing Guidebooks of the United States, Part I, California and Arizona (1993) Signed, As New.
9. Deerhorn Valley Topos, Ray Olson, 2nd Ed. Revised (1986), Pink Paper edition (only 25 copies made), Rare and As New.
10. A Climber;s Guide to Cathedral and White Horse, Joseph & Karen Cote (1969) Scarce early NE Guide, As New Condition.
Bill Roos
1. Leather briefcase made by Roy under his Persona label
Russ Walling
1. Select fish products items to be disclosed at event
Joseph Healy
1. Forrest Mjolnir Alpine hammer with the full complement of interchangeable picks
2. Two Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation t-shirts
3. DVD of the A5 Hammer Documentation
Steve Williams
1. Chouinard alpine hammer and Chouinard crampons
Guy Kenny
1. Flat file cover & Square duffel bag made by Roy under his Persona label
Sally Moser
Complete 3 volume set of Southern Sierra Rockclimbing Guidebooks, authored and signed by Sally Moser, as new condition, to include:
1. Needles (rare out of print)
2. Domelands
3. Sequoia Kings Canyon
Dave Diegelman
1. Two signed prints from El Capitan Sea of Dreams first ascent, featuring Dale Bard & Jim Bridwell
Evolv
1. Two rock shoe gift certificates
Nick Badyrka
1. Belay seat made by Roy in the 70’s
Walter Flint
1. 20X24 matted print of an as yet undisclosed Yosemite scene
Rick A
1. Colorado climbing history book: CLIMB!
Todd Gordon
1. Layton Kor’s book: Beyond The Vertical (signed by Kor)
Bob D’Antonio
1. 13X19 matted print of Lone Pine Peak from Alabama Hills
Dean Fidelman
1. Three portraits of John Yablonski, in a single frame.
Kathy Green
1. Two hand dyed silk scarves
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scuffy b
climber
Frigate Matilda
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I do recognize the picture, Crusher, and I'm delighted to see
it. I think I'm just out of the frame, in fact.
It's just...Tucker? and BEER?
I was shocked, that's all.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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It kinda looks like the auction may take longer than an hour. Is it going to be a written down on paper bid by the item or an out loud auction ? Also, what types of payment are you accepting ? I've been to a few fundraiser auctions and just collecting the money and other details take quite a bit of time... jess thinking out loud.
When does the Band start their jazz !!!! and When do they need to quit ? Can you tell I'm looking forward to the music :)) Need time for the Band....Cheers, lynne
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Scruffy I think I have one of you and Tarbuster together too, walking up the road. I'll look when I'm at home.
YES! Tucker and BEER!!! : )
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Lynne,
Yes the auction list is rather extensive!
It does appear that it will take more than an hour to get through it...
We are hesitant to establish minimum bids at this time; currently we are looking at an open bid format.
Suggested minimums may be suitably announced at the time the item is presented for auction.
This will be a verbal live auction with spotters.
Payable by cash or check.
I don't know when the band cranks up; my guess would be we will figure that out on the fly and unleash them according to what's happening...
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scuffy b
climber
Frigate Matilda
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Hey, Crusher,
you'll have to check the whole Woodson Shindig thread
while you're at it won't you?
Grins galore.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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But of course! A trip down memory lane...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Are those guys visiting the zoo?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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BUMP before it is trolled to the second page by IT WHO DOES NOT CLIMB.
Nature: sending you an email.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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I saw on another post that Jude (from Palm Springs) might be donating a painting;......this is so awesome;....I went down to see his paintings in an exhibition a few months ago;.......His stuff is brilliant;........I can't wait to see what he has come up with.......fabulous! ........very exciting news! Check his stuff out;....it's wonderful..
http://www.judebischoff.com/
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It may make sense to divide things into three piles. One would be for relatively small/modest value items, which could be draw prizes. (When you enter and make a donation, you get a draw ticket....) Then stuff for a silent auction, though that takes some managing. Then stuff for the no holds barred live auction.
It sounds like it will be a lot of fun, and I'm looking forward to it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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There will be a $20 minimum donation requested at the door.
This gets you a poster for the event:
This poster is a limited-edition commemorative item, featuring an iconic Bullwinkle photo of Yabo in action, on Joshua Tree stone.
We are going to ask folks to kick in more if they wish to have the poster signed.
(Hey, this is a fundraiser, and Dean's photograph plus a signature from a bona fide Stonemaster equates to real market value down the line)
We may consider doing a silent auction for a good number of the items which have been donated, allowing us to focus our time allotted for the live auction on a manageable number of memorabilia items.
Your input is much appreciated Anders!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I predict an epic of disasterous proportions! Or would that be a disaster of epic proportions? Either way, I've got to get out to see this hoedown - it's really going to launch my season one way or the other if I survive...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:23am PT
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Tremendous outpouring of support for old Tarbaby I must say.
With cash and auction items, I'm continuing to pay for PT & Docs.
The current skinny on those efforts:
I'm doing two therapies each week, ASTYM is a manual therapy using tools that are stripped against the skin, perturbing the underlying scar tissue in my arms, which in turn encourages macrophages and fibroblasts to infiltrate the area and lay in new collagen beds.
Today on my fifth session we found we'd gotten through one layer of fibrotic tissue and encountered a secondary, deeper layer which is much thicker and much more resistant to the tools. So much like peeling back the onion and finding some real significant trouble; this after he said the first few sessions revealed more fibrotic tissue than any of his patients he has seen, specifically in their muscle bellies.
This particular therapy is being done gratis by Supertopo very cool guy Spectreman: big thanks to him.
The other is a very specific manual therapy called MAT, and after brassnuts paid for the first session, I've now paid for six more. Strategically this is a complementary therapy, because it seeks to turn on the muscles which have been long exhausted through splinting or spasm, or just not firing correctly or in concert with related muscles.
What's encouraging about that is that it is highly detailed in its evaluation of individual muscles, which of course are many in the forearm.
The adjunct to nutritional therapy to those two manual elements is ingestion of systemic enzymes, primarily proteolytic, taken between meals and intended to assist with immune function and help the body digest scar tissue. I believe this is termed fibrinolytic activity.
I'm not yet feeling any change in my condition.
I stayed in the loop with my local rheumatology Dr. and re-scheduled my initial appointment another six weeks out, so that I might evaluate the outcome of scar tissue removal; then bring those findings. It may be that I have valid questions about excessive fibrosis and muscle tissue. Likewise I may find that removing the scar tissue doesn't change my condition. Either way I'm thinking I need to keep my conduit to more targeted referral open.
Dana B has been very helpful in searching three medical libraries to supply me with papers in support of any therapies in which I'm interested in evaluating.
Thanks again for all your support!
This means a lot to me.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:26am PT
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Joseph may have meant to say "A proportion of disaster epics". Climbers and epics go together like peas and carrots, in the words of Mr. Gump.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:30am PT
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Let's just hope he doesn't launch his peas and carrots...
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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I'll be damned sorry to miss this swell event, but between Prescott two weeks ago, North Carolina last weekend, and 10 days in the Valley come May, I'm all booked on the travel thing. Wishing nothing but the best and a wild good time for Mr. Tarbousier...
Sneaky angle of The Man from the Woodson Shindig...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 10, 2009 - 02:11pm PT
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UPDATED CLIMBING MEMORABILIA AUCTION ITEMS LIST
There has been a wonderful outpouring of donations for the auction.
I’m very grateful to all of you for your support and donation toward the climbing memorabilia auction.
We plan to hold it at 7:00-8:00 pm, just prior to Dean’s slideshow.
The number of items currently on deck is quite large.
Beginning 5 p.m., we plan to have them displayed and arranged such that silent paper bidding can begin at that time. During the allotted hour between 7 and 8 p.m., we will begin presenting select items for live auction until the hour runs out.
All proceeds will go directly to Roy.
If you are interested in bidding and cannot attend, please find someone who will be present to be your proxy and bid for you.
Cash or check only.
Here is an updated list of the confirmed items and their donors:
Randy Vogel
1. Topo Guide to Tahquitz & Suicide (1980) -- my first loose leaf guide. Signed and As New Condition.
2. Rock Climbs of Taquitz and Suicide Rocks (1992 - scarce reprint of 1985 edition with white paper covers) -- Signed and Near As New condition.
3. Guide to Tahquitz and Suicide Rocks (1993 -- by Bob Gaines and me) Signed by Bob Gaines and Myself, As New condition.
4. Joshua Tree Sport Climbing (1992 -- 1st edition --paper covers) Signed and As New condition.
5. Joshua Tree Supplement(1989 -- by Bartlett and me) Signed only by me. As New Condition.
6. Joshua Tree Rock Climbing Guide (1992) original printing. Signed, As New Condition.
7. Climber's Guide to Valle Azteca, Baja California (1995) Signed, As New.
8. The Climbing Guidebooks of the United States, Part I, California and Arizona (1993) Signed, As New.
9. Deerhorn Valley Topos, Ray Olson, 2nd Ed. Revised (1986), Pink Paper edition (only 25 copies made), Rare and As New.
10. A Climber;s Guide to Cathedral and White Horse, Joseph & Karen Cote (1969) Scarce early NE Guide, As New Condition.
Bill Roos
1. Leather briefcase made by Roy under his Persona label
Russ Walling
1. Select fish products items to be disclosed at event
Joseph Healy
1. Forrest Mjolnir Alpine hammer with the full complement of interchangeable picks
2. Two Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation t-shirts
3. DVD of the A5 Hammer Documentation
Steve Williams
1. Chouinard alpine hammer and Chouinard crampons
Guy Kenny
1. Flat file cover & Square duffel bag made by Roy under his Persona label
Sally Moser
Complete 3 volume set of Southern Sierra Rockclimbing Guidebooks, authored and signed by Sally Moser, as new condition, to include:
1. Needles (rare out of print)
2. Domelands
3. Sequoia Kings Canyon
Dave Diegelman
1. Two signed prints from El Capitan Sea of Dreams first ascent, featuring Dale Bard & Jim Bridwell (with certificate of authenticity)
Evolv
1. Two rock shoe gift certificates
Nick Badyrka
1. Belay seat made by Roy in the 70’s
Walter Flint
1. 20X24 matted print of Halfdome from Inspiration Point
Rick A
1. Colorado climbing history book: CLIMB!
Todd Gordon
1. Layton Kor’s book: Beyond The Vertical (signed by Kor)
2. Original desert painting
3. A rare Bandito bolt hanger from Mexican Hat, Utah
Bob D’Antonio
1. 13X19 matted print of Lone Pine Peak from Alabama Hills
Dean Fidelman
1. Three portraits of John Yablonski, in a single frame.
Kathy Green
1. Two hand dyed silk scarves
Dana Bartlett
1. Consecutive collection of Ascent, 1969 -1974
2. Layton Kor's Beyond the Vertical
Jeff Lowe
1. Climbing gear relating to notable historical ascents with notes on provenance
locker
1. Climbing shoe resold gift certificate
Maria Cranor
1. Black Diamond quick draw’s (12)
Dave Katz
1. 2 copies of "Getting High in L.A." The first climbing guide to the Santa Monica Mountains and only 1000 copies printed
Jude Bischoff
1. original painting
Cyndie Bransford
1. a climber's quilt
2. a metal climbing sculpture
3. 5 framed local pictures from Joshua Tree
G Lee
1. Single pair Mint size 41 1/2 Montelliana's
2. Single pair Mint size 41 Eb's
John Bachar
1. Two Pair of free ACOPA shooz...
Supertopo/Chris McNamara
Guidebooks:
1. Yosemite Free Climbing
2. High Sierra
3. Tuolomne guidebooks
Mike.
1. Yosemite Big Walls first edition
2. Three t-shirts with big wall graphics
Pocoloco
1. A CASE of Chilo’s Chile
Thanks everyone for your generous and supportive contributions !!!
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 10, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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Don't foget original painting by Jude Bischoff;...a rare and beautiful treat.....
http://www.judebischoff.com/
I also have an original desert painting I would like to donate to the auction..(Not painted by me, but it's been hanging in my living room for years....painted by a climber who stayed at my house and was given to me;....I now want to share the love;....)Please add these two items to the auction list;.....and let's have some more cool donations for the Beadwagon;....Roy boy......keep the love coming....(This auction should be fantastic.......)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 10, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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Thanks for the heads up Todd!
Shall I request Epperson drop by with his tools, and direct an effort to throw up a quick addition to your house so we can sufficiently display all of these fine items? (Barn raising?)
Heck, the boys will be teenagers before you know it and you'll need the room...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 10, 2009 - 02:23pm PT
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Greg was already here this week, helping put more shelves in our kitchen......he's probably had enough of me , Andrea, and the 3 human wrecking balls.....
Add one more thing to the mix;.....A rare Bandito bolt hanger from Mexican Hat, Utah........a true thing of elegant beauty , function, and form........One of my most prized climbing memoriblia......but for Beadie......I gladly donate to share the love.........
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
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This just in... Museum-quality item from Jello (Jeff Lowe) to be auctioned. AAC Museum will will be envious of the winning bidder.
Details to follow.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 11, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
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Cyndie Bransford just gave me two things to add to the auction;...a climber's quilt, and a metal climbing sculpture.......Cyndie and Roy go WAY back;...I think they used to take baths together when they were kids...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 11, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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Fabulous contributions from Jell-O and Cindy and Jude and Maria and Katz and Locker and Dana updated.
... and Kathy and Dean and Bob.
On love & hope alone you'd have to KNOW I'm some good ways along the road toward healing up...
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GLee
Trad climber
Montana
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Apr 11, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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I just finished speaking with Todd Gordon telling him that I have two pair of pristine (read: Never Used) shoes to contribute to the auction, and he said to send them down.
So at the auction, there will be one pair of never used size 41(in caulk on the sole) EB's, and a pair of never used size 41 1/2 Montelliana's (which I'd swear is who made Shoenard's for Chouinard,they look the same but these are in blue leather).
Buy them to try on routes done in them BITD.
Enjoy the gathering, and drive safely.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 12, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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Tarbaby, you gotta be feelin' better just knowin' all this love and generosity is going yer way! All the best to you and see ya guys in a couple O' weeks
Peace Roy(and Lisa)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 12, 2009 - 12:39am PT
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tan slacks are you out there....? Got any info to share on when you guys start the music ? Maybe you guys could come up with creative ways to make more donations for Tarbuster.
Idea; play or sing a song with the band, contribute $$$$ to do so....jess an idea. But wanting to hear the musica for Sure !!!
Peace, lynne
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 13, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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This event is coming up in a few weeks;...things to think about.
1) Please drive very slowly;...there will be alot of cars in the neighborhood, and there is a 15 MPH speed limit;....we especially need to be very slow this day with the added traffic.
2) Tucker and Eva said you could park at their place too, and snake a ride up to the Gordo Ranch;.....
3) Be creative with your parking, and be aware that drunks could back into your car, so park defensively. Do not park so someone else is blocked in......you may have to park and walk a bit, so bring a flashlite or headlamp......maybe carpool and leave cars elsewhere if possible......
4) Probably best to arrive during daylight hours so you can see what's going on.....sushi, auction stuff, see your friends, met people, etc....and I'm sure your could lend a hand with some prep chores.......come anytime this day;........people will be around all day, I'm sure.....
5) Make sure you climb that day, or you are a pussy.
6) This is a fund raiser, so keep that in mind;.....no whiners please.
7. Best NOT to bring your dog;....
8. Probably not the best party for children either;..mine will be over at in-laws that evening.
9. No underage drinking and NO drunk drivers.......if you are boozed....just tell me, and I'll find a place for you to crash.....Probably the most important one on this list.....
10. If you have something to bring for the auction, bring it, and we will add it to the already awesome list.
11. All are welcome;...even if you don't know Roy or Dean or Chongo or Largo.......time to see old friends and make new friends.
12. This is the desert;....feel free to pee outside, especially after dark......with lots of people in attendence, and only one bathroom, it's probably a good idea.
13. Don't worry, you won't be the oldest one there.
14. Stick around for the awesome Cactus Pricks.....stay up late and have fun.....cut loose, shake your groove thing and shake your money maker.....get down , throw it down, and make sure your are chillaxing.....
15. If you end up throwing up, you won't the first;....ask Kevin Powell (We made him wear a helmet one year), Kurt Smith, and I'm sure a few others.
16. Watch out for cholla cactus and cat claws and other desert nasties when hiking around the desert.
17. Don't be shy........If you take off all your clothes at the party, you will be the third person to do so publically at a party here......(One person was naked at a party here for most of the night on a dare once, and the other was Pat Brennan after he had a run-in with some Wild Turkey....)
18. Most of all , have a great time, enjoy yourself, and enjoy the fabulous climbing community that we are very fortunate to be a part of....
Any questions, comments, suggestions....call me up at (760) 366-9395. It's also easy to get here;.....head up Park Ave from Joshua Tree for a few miles, then go right on Rincon, and left on Star...........last house on Star.....or just follow the dust and cars. See ya then.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 13, 2009 - 09:12am PT
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Right on, Todd! Wish I cud be there--
Number 5 rocks!!!!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 13, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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Well, I know I for one plan on behaving :}
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Apr 13, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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Hey Nature-
We are in on the LA fish. You've seen the price list, let me know what you want, how much and how you want me to take care of it to make sure it is up to snuff! I'll front the fish, so no worries there. Fish night is Saturday the 25th, right?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 14, 2009 - 12:54am PT
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cool deal. got your email and will respond once I look over the price list again. This will help a lot!
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Apr 14, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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I will donate $500.00 to this event in the name of the winner of my movie trivia challenge.
Zip
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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ACOPA
2 Pair of free shooz...
Good luck with all this Roy, wish I could come down for the action but I'll be on the road!
Ciao amico, JB
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 15, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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Thanks Johnny (you) Rock!
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 15, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Coooool John THANKS
Peace
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 15, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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If you would like to bring something;....you could bring a sixer ......I will have ice chests of ice, and everyone.....(That is...everyone OVER 21) loves beer........it's a BYOB event, so bring a few extra for those who get extra thirsty.......thanks in advance....
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 15, 2009 - 01:05am PT
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Todd...thank you for all that you are doing for Roy...I don't post here much anymore but this is really what the climbing community about and it makes me proud to be a part of it even in a small way.
Bob
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 15, 2009 - 01:21am PT
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If you need long or large tables for the auction items I have several and can bring them in my van. Nature, I am still planning on bringing the canopy....let me know if you do not need it. Lynne
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 15, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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ok... not sure it's needed as it's not turning out to be a huge sushi event.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 15, 2009 - 09:47am PT
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Yes Lynne, please bring two LONG tables.
The number of items currently on deck for my medical bill benefit auction is quite large.
Beginning 5 p.m., we plan to have them displayed and arranged such that silent paper bidding can begin at that time. During the allotted hour between 7 and 8 p.m., we will begin presenting select items for live auction until the hour runs out.
All proceeds will go directly to Roy.
If you are interested in bidding and cannot attend, please find someone who will be present to be your proxy and bid for you.
Cash or check only.
Here is an updated list of the confirmed items and their donors:
Randy Vogel
1. Topo Guide to Tahquitz & Suicide (1980) -- my first loose leaf guide. Signed and As New Condition.
2. Rock Climbs of Taquitz and Suicide Rocks (1992 - scarce reprint of 1985 edition with white paper covers) -- Signed and Near As New condition.
3. Guide to Tahquitz and Suicide Rocks (1993 -- by Bob Gaines and me) Signed by Bob Gaines and Myself, As New condition.
4. Joshua Tree Sport Climbing (1992 -- 1st edition --paper covers) Signed and As New condition.
5. Joshua Tree Supplement(1989 -- by Bartlett and me) Signed only by me. As New Condition.
6. Joshua Tree Rock Climbing Guide (1992) original printing. Signed, As New Condition.
7. Climber's Guide to Valle Azteca, Baja California (1995) Signed, As New.
8. The Climbing Guidebooks of the United States, Part I, California and Arizona (1993) Signed, As New.
9. Deerhorn Valley Topos, Ray Olson, 2nd Ed. Revised (1986), Pink Paper edition (only 25 copies made), Rare and As New.
10. A Climber;s Guide to Cathedral and White Horse, Joseph & Karen Cote (1969) Scarce early NE Guide, As New Condition.
Bill Roos
1. Leather briefcase made by Roy under his Persona label
Russ Walling
1. Select fish products items to be disclosed at event
Joseph Healy
1. Forrest Mjolnir Alpine hammer with the full complement of interchangeable picks
2. Two Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation t-shirts
3. DVD of the A5 Hammer Documentation
Steve Williams
1. Chouinard alpine hammer and Chouinard crampons
Guy Kenny
1. Flat file cover & Square duffel bag made by Roy under his Persona label
Sally Moser
Complete 3 volume set of Southern Sierra Rockclimbing Guidebooks, authored and signed by Sally Moser, as new condition, to include:
1. Needles (rare out of print)
2. Domelands
3. Sequoia Kings Canyon
Dave Diegelman
1. Two signed prints from El Capitan Sea of Dreams first ascent, featuring Dale Bard & Jim Bridwell (with certificate of authenticity)
Evolv
1. Two rock shoe gift certificates
Nick Badyrka
1. Belay seat made by Roy in the 70’s
Walter Flint
1. 20X24 matted print of Halfdome from Inspiration Point
Rick A
1. Colorado climbing history book: CLIMB!
Todd Gordon
1. Layton Kor’s book: Beyond The Vertical (signed by Kor)
2. Original desert painting
3. A rare Bandito bolt hanger from Mexican Hat, Utah
Bob D’Antonio
1. 13X19 matted print of Lone Pine Peak from Alabama Hills
Dean Fidelman
1. Three portraits of John Yablonski, in a single frame.
Kathy Green
1. Two hand dyed silk scarves
Dana Bartlett
1. Consecutive collection of Ascent, 1969 -1974
2. Layton Kor's Beyond the Vertical
Jeff Lowe
1. Climbing gear relating to notable historical ascents with notes on provenance
locker
1. Climbing shoe resold gift certificate
Maria Cranor
1. Black Diamond quick draw’s (12)
Dave Katz
1. 2 copies of "Getting High in L.A." The first climbing guide to the Santa Monica Mountains and only 1000 copies printed
Jude Bischoff
1. original painting
Cyndie Bransford
1. a climber's quilt
2. a metal climbing sculpture
3. 5 framed local pictures from Joshua Tree
G Lee
1. Single pair Mint size 41 1/2 Montelliana's
2. Single pair Mint size 41 Eb's
John Bachar
1. Two Pair of free ACOPA shooz...
Supertopo/Chris McNamara
Guidebooks:
1. Yosemite Free Climbing
2. High Sierra
3. Tuolomne guidebooks
Mike.
1. Yosemite Big Walls first edition
2. Three t-shirts with big wall graphics
Pocoloco
1. A CASE of salsa from Chilo’s Chile
Steve Grossman
1. Chouinard Long Dong Nutscratchers signed by Royal Robbins, Mike Sherrick and Jerry Gallwas (#10 of 23)
Healyje
1. Vintage wood shafted A5 wall hammer
Socalbolter/Louie
1. some copies of the Riverside Quarry guidebook
Mike Graham
1. Two pair Stonemaster Gear pants
Thanks everyone for your generous and supportive contributions !!!
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GLee
Trad climber
Montana
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Apr 15, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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The pair of Montelliana's for auction were bought on a climbing trip in the Dolomite's in 1980. I have no knowledge of when Montelliana first made them.
The original green Shoenard's were for sale in the early 70's. I've seen pictures of Steve Wunch using them then.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 15, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
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Just picked 15 lbs. of avos. Will make guacamole for all pre party workers. Can't believe only a little over a week away. Peace, and looking forward.
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pocoloco1
Social climber
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Apr 15, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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Tarbuster:
I've really enjoyed the trip reports that you have posted over the years. They make any day better. Also,I'm appreciative of the fact that I have no idea about your political ideology. Thank you. I would like to contribute to the auction, so if someone would post up a shipping address it would be helpful. I don't think my taco e-mail is working.
PL1
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 15, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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Poco!
Thank you for your praise, concern and support.
Try e-mailing me now with the reply e-mail you would like me to use.
persona(at)interfold.net
As I am soon leaving my home for California, I will need to get you an alternate shipping address.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 15, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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You could mail any auction items to me at Todd Gordon P.O. Box 138 Joshua Tree, Ca. 92252
Then Roy or Rick don't need to lug anything else on the plane beside their Chalkbags, huggers, swamis, and EB's......
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pocoloco1
Social climber
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Apr 15, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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Tar: e-mail sent
Todd, will the P.O. Box accept UPS shipping?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 15, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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P.O. Box will not accept UPS.
John you may ship UPS to the address which I sent you.
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F10
Trad climber
e350
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Apr 16, 2009 - 10:39am PT
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Nature,
Are you still planning on a Sushi pickup from San Diego, or is it still to early to tell?? Just let me know
James
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Dr. Josh
Boulder climber
South Lake Tahoe
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Apr 17, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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My advice is simple, all you need it a hard round abject like a new tennis ball or semi hard rubber ball. I read all the posts no one has mentioned T4 Syndrome. While it doesn't fit with the typical nerve associated symptoms. T4 syndrome is thought to be caused by over stimulation of the sympathetic chain ganglion. (over stressed fight or flight response) Which has a bilateral symptoms on both arms below the elbow.
What to do. Find the T4 vertebrae by counting down from the large bump below your neck to the 4th bump. place the ball on the side of the spine that is the most tender. Lay on the ball and roll back and forth releasing the muscle tension and mobilizing the spinal fixation. Breath, relax and feel and goose bump feeling come over your upper arms and back. This is the para sympathetic response which means you are now in "rest and digest phase. If it over stimulation this should show some progress in a few hours to a few days.
Hope this helps
The T4 syndrome.
DeFranca GG, Levine LJ.
OBJECTIVE: To discuss two cases of the T4 syndrome in order to raise awareness and aid its clinical recognition. CLINICAL FEATURES: Paresthesias, numbness, or upper extremity pains associated with or without headaches and upper back stiffness characterize the T4 syndrome. In addition, no hard neurological signs are present. Upper thoracic joint dysfunction, especially in the region of the T4 segment, appeared to be the major cause of the upper extremity symptoms and headaches. A nontraumatic onset is common and the peculiar glove-like distribution of hand or forearm pain can often lead to a mistaken diagnosis, including psychogenesis. INTERVENTION AND OUTCOME: Joint manipulation, stretching, and strengthening exercises directed at the upper thoracic dysfunctional segments were used with good results. CONCLUSION: Upper extremity symptoms of nocturnal or early morning paresthesias, especially in a glove-like distribution, coupled with headaches and a stiff upper thoracic spine without neurological signs of disease may indicate a T4 syndrome. Manipulation of the dysfunctional upper thoracic segments may relieve these symptoms.
PMID: 7706958 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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spectreman
Trad climber
CO
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Apr 17, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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I treat quite a bit of Thoracic and rib dysfunction and know to look for and treat a T4 syndrome. I don't think his presentation is consistant with other's I have treated with thoracic dysfunction and sympathetic issues.
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The Doctor
Social climber
Da Bronx
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Apr 17, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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Good advice Dr. Josh. So Roy when I see you in JTree I will adjust your upper thoracics, and we'll see what happens. Looking forward to seeing everyone, The Dr.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 17, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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Hmmm, the bi-lateral nature of Tar's complaint is the one thing that continual leads back to the spine and pathways from it. Given I think we can all agree Tar isn't presenting in a way that's consistent with any specific syndrome we've mentioned to-date I'd say Josh's suggestion is worth looking into. And while I think it's productive to deal with the localized tissue issues with mechanical manipulations, I have a hard time believing that is or will deal with root causes. This T4 syndrome is now a second possible explanation for the bilateral nature of his upper extremity complaints and wouldn't be inclined to rule out any such possibility without some exploratory work around it. Given the 'work' required is manipulative and widely available I'd say it couldn't hurt at all to check the possibility out.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 17, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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I've had about 80 chiropractic manipulations.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 17, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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I don't doubt that Tar, but this sounds like some pretty specific physical movements / manipuliation specific to T4 as opposed to the broad manipulations Chiros do (I've had about as many myself...).
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old ass hippie
Trad climber
nathrop colorado
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Apr 17, 2009 - 09:22pm PT
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Todd, this is scott an robyn erler, we use to live in Idyllwild, and will send a donation. SEE YA.....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 17, 2009 - 09:58pm PT
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Great;....Scott/Robyn.......thanks from Roy Boy....Hope all is well with you;.......now in Colorado..........
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 17, 2009 - 10:04pm PT
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Todd... I'll be calling you soon (finally)
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F10
Trad climber
e350
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Apr 17, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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Nature, just sent you an email
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 17, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
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Scott 'n Robyn !!!!!!
Yahooooooo...
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 17, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
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F10 - got it, back atcha.... Monday is a big day.
Until then... gotta prep for Babo.... wooot!
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F10
Trad climber
e350
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Apr 17, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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Have a great time on Babo, awesome place, talk with ya on monday
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 17, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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Todd Gordon (760) 366-9395
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 18, 2009 - 05:56am PT
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The A5 hammer originally listed among the items in the [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=833225" target="new"]For Sale: Dano's Potaledge Cliff Cabana & lots o' wall gear [/url] thread has now been donated to this benefit auction.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Apr 18, 2009 - 11:32am PT
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I know I saw it here somewhere but I've lost it in 510 posts ... what's the preferred address
to make direct contributions, for those of us who can't travel to the left coast this time? There
might be one or two others in that boat too.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 18, 2009 - 06:35pm PT
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bump for Roy!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 18, 2009 - 08:49pm PT
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The 50th anniversary of the FA of the Northwest Face of Half Dome was celebrated in Yosemite in the summer of 2007. I arranged to have twenty-three Chouinard Long Dong Nutscratchers signed by Royal Robbins, Mike Sherrick and Jerry Gallwas in connection with the event. As Roy is a TEN, I am contributing #10 of 23.
Edit: I will send this on to the event directly via Todd.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 18, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
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I am in lovely downtown Manteca, and tomorrow will be in the Valley. Joshua Tree by Thurday.
I may have a jar of therapeutic marmelade to donate.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Apr 19, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Thurday?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 19, 2009 - 12:47am PT
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I'll be there Friday noon...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 19, 2009 - 12:54am PT
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I'll be there a day or two early, to get some exercise. Though I'll probably just get baked. Anyway, it's a long way to drive, so making the most of it. I can always keep Roy company, and help with whatever is needed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 19, 2009 - 02:51am PT
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Gotta spend Thursday in Laguna with the folks...
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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We have a great range of auction items and will start the silent auction about 5:00 p.m.
Due to the vast number of items, we will auction most of the stuff by a silent auction. Here is how it works. There will be a sheet of paper next to the item. All you have to do is write your name and a bid on the paper. The next person puts his/her name and a higher bid, etc. The silent auction will be closed when the auctioneers decide and make an announcement.
A select group of silent auction items will continue to be bid on in the live auction beginning, around 7:00 p.m.
Roy has been incommunicado because of 3 feet of snow in Ned, and his power and internet are out.
His address for sending cash or check donations is:
Roy McClenahan
PO box 463,
Nederland, Co
80466
It is too late to send auction items to Roy’s house, since Roy will be leaving for Josh soon. If anyone has a last minute auction item, just bring it to Todd’s.
Looking forward to seeing everyone at Todd’s house.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 19, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
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Dr Josh,
Thanks for the recommendation for the T4 syndrome.
I can certainly doublecheck on this item (and will); however I can say that I've seen three different chiropractors over the last 12 years and all specifically for resolution of bilateral arm pain.
One of them did report a particular pathway interruption/overload, precipitated by protracted fight or flight, which may well have been descriptive of T4 syndrome, although he did not call it that by name, and made claims to the effect that this would cause or precipitate muscle spasm in the medial belly of the forearms.
No other practitioner who I've seen has been significantly so moved to describe a pathway overload and symptomatic outcome so explicitly.
After over 20 sessions with him I had no resolution whatsoever. I'm not quite sure that glovelike distribution of pain, including nocturnal onset or at morning is necessarily descriptive of my symptoms and I don't complain of upper back pain or stiffness.
I've also had lots of PT, as far back as 1997, some distinct diagnostics were not focused on T4, but rather on C5/6. There was a rubber ball pressure point protocol, described by the Upledger Institute, which sounds similar, except for placement. The point being I think I had good eyeballs and expertise focused on my issue which would've queried and subsequently targeted T4 and directed the therapy accordingly.
Thanks for reading the whole thread and taking a crack at it!
I will certainly review and revisit this line of thinking.
Roy
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Apr 19, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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Rick A:
Roy has been incommunicado because of 3 feet of snow in Ned, and his power and internet are out.
His address for sending cash or check donations is:
Thanks for the update, Rick. Sorry we can't join the ruckus at Todd's, we'll just be there in spirit.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 19, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
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LOL
That's gonna be a shock!
Going from snowed-in in Nederland to JT, where it will be flirting with triple digit temps this weekend.
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BrassNuts
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Apr 19, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
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By the time we leave the mess left by the recent pummeling of snow, cool temperatures will be in J-tree. According to weather.com, the high on the 25th is only 74 degrees. Boo hoo.
EDIT: CRIMPERGIRL HERE, NOT BN
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 19, 2009 - 07:21pm PT
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True.
Just got updated.
WIND TOO!
(but it'll go into the 90s for a few days first)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 19, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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Will be praying for decent weather for the festivities...lrl
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 19, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
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Next Sat....weather report says 73 and partly cloudy;.....perfect.......
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 19, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
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Just spent a couple days off the grid due to power outage.
Friday night I shoveled 2 feet of snow off our entire roofline.
During those couple of hours, six more inches of snow rapidly built up on the areas I had cleared...
(As a good portion of our roof is nearly flat, this routine is encouraged after lots of heavy wet snowfall)
Saturday night I shoveled my driveway while everything was still pretty cold, before warmer temps would catch up with me and ultimately magnify the weight of every shovel load.
Although moderate exercise is indicated for remodeling of tissue after ASTYM therapy,
Don't try this at home, especially if your arms hurt:
Today I finished reading a stack of papers, thanks to Dana B.
common and unique mechanisms regulate fibrosis in various fibroproliferative diseases
pharmacotherapy in patients with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis
co-medication with hydrolytic enzymes in radiation therapy of uterine cervix: evidence of the reduction of acute side effects
proteolytic enzyme therapy in evidence based complementary oncology: fact or fiction?
the efficacy of trypsin: chymotrypsin preparation in the reduction of oxidative damage during burn injury
effect of the proteolytic enzyme serrapeptase in patients with chronic airway disease
effect of the proteolytic enzyme serrapeptase on swelling, pain and trismus after surgical extraction of mandibular third molars
role of cytokines and cytokine therapy in wound healing and fibrotic diseases
... that last one was a bit heavy.
My take away from all this?
I don't know for sure, I went to bed with a tummy ache last night, but...
Looks like systemic enzyme therapy might be a good complement to ASTYM or lots of medical situations that eventuate in, or are complicated by, Fibrosis.
Hope to see a good handful of you nice people out in the desert pretty soon.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 19, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
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The weather in J-Tree will be great. Just not as hot as desired by a poikilotherm like me. :)
Looking toward Tarbuster's home - LOTS of snow and this is after a lot of melting!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 19, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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The Third might be an interesting mixed climb at 4:30 AM.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 19, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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Just beware of avalanches, or drowning on the approach. Ha!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 19, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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Girl you're just too young to remember what tricounis are good for.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 19, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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Is that a kind of plural for martini?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 19, 2009 - 10:44pm PT
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True! I prefer approaches requiring flip flops. :)
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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RSVP
Everyone who plans to be there, post up!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 19, 2009 - 10:54pm PT
|
Crimpergirl and BrassNuts will be there.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 19, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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I think I can make it......
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hooblie
climber
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Apr 19, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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there's a lot of pride to be had looking back, in thoroughly saturated garb, at a trail blazed by the righteously wielded shovel. i've got a quiver of shovels myself, one for each "special purpose." there's no need to research the medline for references to your heart, will, or cussedness mister buster. the sign of a fellow, thinly vieled manic, unchained and raging against the storm, would not be missed by the likes of say, john henry,....or thor.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 19, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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Rick A.....yo can't be serious:D You're already up to 500 plus posts. Do you think we should start an rsvp thread ?
I'm bringing the tables, tape, tickets, exacto knives and misc. Pretty jazzed but why haven't we heard from Le Band ? Are they still planning on jammin' ? Peace, Lynne
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 19, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
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I heard the band last night at the J T Saloon;....the are primed and ready to rock and roll.....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 19, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
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Yeah hooblie!!!
Ye speak thee words well and in timely fashion,
Henceforth we must endeavor to remove the white and fluffy;
'Lest the odd steel at far right be thusly prompted
To coarsely expend its crusty summer luster
Against the encroaching and unbearable ice...
But me, I'm a minimalist.
(The green one is all the better half of a his 'n hers pair)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 19, 2009 - 11:51pm PT
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Josh this coming weekend?
I'll be there...
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Apr 19, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
|
If Roy's gonna be there, you can count me in too!
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Slakkey
Trad climber
From a Quiet Place by the Lake
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Apr 19, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Nice snow shovel collection
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TYeary
climber
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Apr 19, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
|
I'll be there with 10b4me.
Looking forward to seeing everyone.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Apr 20, 2009 - 12:02am PT
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wish i could be there roy - i hope you all have one hell of a party ! that three feet of snow knocked me off the grid up here too ;)
(one of these days i'll roll back through ned, and i'll have to pop in for a cup of tea...)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 20, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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Could ya'll give a shout to Anastasia......she's riding the line between duty and fun. Trust me she needs the fun !
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 20, 2009 - 08:32am PT
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Bump for Roy!!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
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I'd vote for Anastasia playing hooky...
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Kironn Kid
Trad climber
|
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
|
Sure wish I could be there. Would love to climb with Oliver Moon again. When and where can we purchase the Stonemasters book?
Thanks
Kiron Kid
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F10
Trad climber
e350
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
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See ya'll there
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
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Is it alright if I bring a few friends?
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
|
I'd vote for Anastasia playing hooky...
I am sure the event will go down just fine if I am there or not. I don't think I am worthy of a vote. That darling gives little ole' me too much credit.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:33pm PT
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Jello sent me some Clean Walls DVDs he signed for me to do the same and forward but Crimpie says that it will just knock down their value.
Feedback?
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BrassNuts
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:48pm PT
|
Up on the auction block for TB: One mint condition copy of "Rocky Heights", the definitive Boulder area guidebook from 1980. Signed by the author, the one and only Jim Erickson.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:54pm PT
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The desert sun has gotten to Piton Ron - I never said such a thing!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:56pm PT
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Ha!
Busted!
But the sun got to me decades ago,...
Now its the gutsy nuns.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
|
I will donate a new condition "Colorado Bouldering Guide" (Phillip Benningfield 1999) to the cause.
Can I send it over with The Doctor?
Best to you Roy - wish i could make it.
Erik Wolfe
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
|
"That darling gives little ole' me too much credit."
That darling is for us to decide and I'm voting...
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:49am PT
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I got one of those, BN! Of course, it's not autographed, but I don't wanna give it up. Just way toooooooo CLASSIC!!!!!!
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dogtown
climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
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Apr 21, 2009 - 05:18am PT
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Sadly I will not be attending cheers to everyone and Gods speed Roy!
Bruce.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Apr 21, 2009 - 08:35am PT
|
I got my proxy bidder all rigged and ready to bump those numbers.
Anyone think there would be interest in the old Rossiter Guides? I have both Boulder Climbs North and Boulder Climbs South, in fairly good condition.
Prod.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Apr 21, 2009 - 10:58am PT
|
Just a tease... and don't ask how I know, but those of you who go to this show are in for an unbelievable set of pics and some great yarn spinning. The rest of us will continue on as wankers.
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Apr 21, 2009 - 11:55am PT
|
Howdy folks,
I'm planning on driving over from LA. Just wondering if you still need a PA for the auction. I haven't met any of you in person yet, but looking forward to helping out the cause. Also, since this is my first trip away from the new baby, I'm hoping to climb a bit on Sunday. Any potential folks out there? Nice mellow stuff?
Peace,
Pete
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
|
I should be in about noon on Friday - anyone going to be climbing about then?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
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Apr 21, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
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pistol p,
we have a pa thnx!
lots of folks out 'n about on sunday...
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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Apr 21, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
|
little update from the sushi guy.
just got off the phone with Todd. My plan is set.
I'm leaving Tucson no later than 3PM Friday and heading straight to the ranch to drink beer. Once the coffee kicks in and the hangover wears off in the AM we'll start setting up the sushi tent and prep'ing food.
I'm planning on sushi for lunch.
If you bought in for all you can eat your window is 5:00PM until 6:30PM. After that we're requesting donation by the plate. If you are helping early and hungry you absolutely can KNOTT eat a grain or rice or piece of fish until 5:00PM ;-).
On Party?
Party on!
Breakdown is Sunday morning. I'd love to get a route in before I head back to Tucson Sunday. Whirlwind tour... should be good and it is certainly worth the effort.
SD/LA fish guys... I'll be in touch soon.
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F10
Trad climber
e350
|
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Apr 21, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
|
Naure, just let me know what you need from SD and I have it covered. Was Babo good?
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
|
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Apr 22, 2009 - 12:07am PT
|
hey Dee ee,
I'm in that photo you posted. Start of the 2k wasn't it?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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Apr 22, 2009 - 12:07am PT
|
excellent! HoMan!!!! this will be the party of a lifetime... of course I've said that before and will probably say it again
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BooYah
Social climber
Ruby Range
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Apr 22, 2009 - 12:09am PT
|
Dougie Fresh........(used to be).
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Apr 22, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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Gezzzz, this is gonna be So much Fun !!!!!! Feel The Energy !
Another Incredible Happenin' At the Gordo Ranch......(my first:)
*Really Grate Climbing ^^^^^
*Hugging Old Friends....Meeting New Ones.....:DD
*Sushi by Nature the Great ++++
*A Once in a Lifetime Auction of Climbing Related Items
never again duplicated raising $$$$$$ for the Tarbuster
*And then the Musica by the Cactus Band...Yeehawwwww!!! (Please
don't let the tambourine bother you. :)
Did I forget anything ??? See ya Friday @ 3pm. Lynnie
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 12:49am PT
|
To paraphrase the fake Blinny:
thisisthetoybustershcnizzlegoodstuff!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 22, 2009 - 12:52am PT
|
johntp gets it !!!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
|
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Apr 22, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
|
Do not despair... for those who can't make it... help is on the way!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 22, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
|
Would that be your personal Lear Jet....? :)
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
|
I should be in about noon on Friday - anyone going to be climbing about then?
We'll probably arrive around 4 or 5pm on Friday (traffic dependant). Hopefully enough time to get a pitch or two in.
More importantly, what's the hap's on Friday night?
Post climbing, we'll probably head to Edchada's in 29 Palms for chili colorado and marg's.
Anything else happenin' on Friday night?
Cheers, and, be fun to see you folks there!
-Brian in SLC
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
|
1837007 Squid Local - 2 lbs
1534003 Mussels Greenlip NZ - 4 lbs
3742003 Live Scallops (HOTATE) - 3 lbs
1942034 Salmon Tasmania - 8 lbs
1219004 Softshell crab whale 1/15pc - 4 lbs
3792001 Amaebi Live - 1 LB
3149001 Mirugai Geoduck Clam 2 LBS
1302002 Quail Eggs Uzura - 3 QTY
1961023 OOBA Leaves Aoshiso - 1 QTY
1987017 Hamachi Head off - 5 lbs
1490017 Aji (wild) - 8 lbs
1296004 Anago Hiraki - 2 lbs
not sure what we'll do with the squid and mussels.... besides somehow eat 'em.
And dammit those Hamachi better still have the gill plate. Kama!!!!
hey also... if anyone is interested I'll teach a yoga class in the late morning. I'll bring a few extra mats.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
|
Had the best uni of my life at Kappo Honda in Fountain Valley a couple of weeks ago. Must be in season?
-Brian in SLC
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
|
i think this is the good season. Uni isn't on that list because I'm getting it from San Diego which I regard as the best around.
Yum!
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
|
How 'bout recommendations for Sake from Trader's Joes (or BevMo)?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
|
How late for yoga, we be climbin' at 7:30 ? :D
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
|
we can play it by ear on the yoga.
I can also do a private lesson if anyone likes.
i'll be at Todd's all day. Per the norm I don't get to climb - just slice fish.
(I hope nobody took the Sushi Nazi comment seriously ;-)
California Gold Uni 80g Tray
California Premium Uni 80g Tray
Frozen Barbequed and Marinated Farmed Fresh Water Eel (Unagi) ~7-9 oz
Catch of the Day -Assorted Fzn Fish Fillets/lb
I'm not a big fan of the joe's sake. I prefer something like Sayuri or some other non-filtered cold sake.
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|
graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
|
Doug,
Can we pay you there for diner?
Mike
|
|
Pewf
climber
nederland
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
|
I am getting hungry reading this thread. Wish we could be there! Unfortunately, like Todd's wife had up thread, I've let my carpal tunnel go untreated for far too long. Doc says I gotta stick close in case my condition progresses to some sort of labor and delivery.
Hope you all have a great time! This event couldn't benefit a better guy.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
|
Mike - only if you send me an email with your intent ;-).
I'll add you to the list. Cool!
BTW... I do have one request. I want pictures of all these rock stars at my sushi bar.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
|
you got it!
I'll bring my camera just in case we see any Rock Stars
I know Bachar is a big time sushi eater
Cheers
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 06:11pm PT
|
yeah and he's had my sushi before. Is he gonna be there?
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|
graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
|
I hope so
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|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
|
Thanks everybody for your help and generosity!
This is the final update I will make to the auction item list, as I am shortly leaving for California.
I will not be able to e-mail, or chat on the taco, as my voice-activated software is only loaded on this home desktop.
I expect this to be an awesomely ripping party!!!!!
UPDATED CLIMBING MEMORABILIA AUCTION ITEMS LIST
There has been a wonderful outpouring of donations for the auction.
I’m very grateful to all of you for your support and donation toward the climbing memorabilia auction.
We plan to hold it at 7:00-8:00 pm, just prior to Dean’s slideshow.
The number of items currently on deck is quite large.
Beginning 5 p.m., we plan to have them displayed and arranged such that silent paper bidding can begin at that time. During the allotted hour between 7 and 8 p.m., we will begin presenting select items for live auction until the hour runs out.
All proceeds will go directly to Roy.
If you are interested in bidding and cannot attend, please find someone who will be present to be your proxy and bid for you.
Cash or check only.
Here is an updated list of the confirmed items and their donors:
Randy Vogel
1. Topo Guide to Tahquitz & Suicide (1980) -- my first loose leaf guide. Signed and As New Condition.
2. Rock Climbs of Taquitz and Suicide Rocks (1992 - scarce reprint of 1985 edition with white paper covers) -- Signed and Near As New condition.
3. Guide to Tahquitz and Suicide Rocks (1993 -- by Bob Gaines and me) Signed by Bob Gaines and Myself, As New condition.
4. Joshua Tree Sport Climbing (1992 -- 1st edition --paper covers) Signed and As New condition.
5. Joshua Tree Supplement(1989 -- by Bartlett and me) Signed only by me. As New Condition.
6. Joshua Tree Rock Climbing Guide (1992) original printing. Signed, As New Condition.
7. Climber's Guide to Valle Azteca, Baja California (1995) Signed, As New.
8. The Climbing Guidebooks of the United States, Part I, California and Arizona (1993) Signed, As New.
9. Deerhorn Valley Topos, Ray Olson, 2nd Ed. Revised (1986), Pink Paper edition (only 25 copies made), Rare and As New.
10. A Climber;s Guide to Cathedral and White Horse, Joseph & Karen Cote (1969) Scarce early NE Guide, As New Condition.
Bill Roos
1. Leather briefcase made by Roy under his Persona label
Russ Walling
1. Select fish products items to be disclosed at event
Joseph Healy
1. Forrest Mjolnir Alpine hammer with the full complement of interchangeable picks
2. Two Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation t-shirts
3. Vintage wood shafted A5 wall hammer & DVD of the A5 Hammer Documentation
Steve Williams
1. Chouinard alpine hammer and Chouinard crampons
Guy Kenny
1. Flat file cover & Square duffel bag made by Roy under his Persona label
Sally Moser
Complete 3 volume set of Southern Sierra Rockclimbing Guidebooks, authored and signed by Sally Moser, as new condition, to include:
1. Needles (rare out of print)
2. Domelands
3. Sequoia Kings Canyon
Dave Diegelman
1. Two signed prints from El Capitan Sea of Dreams first ascent, featuring Dale Bard & Jim Bridwell (with certificate of authenticity)
Evolv
1. Two rock shoe gift certificates
Nick Badyrka
1. Belay seat made by Roy in the 70’s
Walter Flint
1. 20X24 matted print of Halfdome from Inspiration Point
Rick A
1. Colorado climbing history book: CLIMB!
Todd Gordon
1. Layton Kor’s book: Beyond The Vertical (signed by Kor)
2. Original desert painting
3. A rare Bandito bolt hanger from Mexican Hat, Utah
Bob D’Antonio
1. 13X19 matted print of Lone Pine Peak from Alabama Hills
Dean Fidelman
1. Three portraits of John Yablonski, in a single frame.
Kathy Green
1. Two hand dyed silk scarves
Dana Bartlett
1. Consecutive collection of Ascent, 1969 -1974
2. Layton Kor's Beyond the Vertical
Jeff Lowe
1. Climbing gear relating to notable historical ascents with notes on provenance
2. A number of signed clean walls DVDs
locker
1. Climbing shoe resold gift certificate
Maria Cranor
1. Black Diamond quick draw’s (12)
Dave Katz
1. 2 copies of "Getting High in L.A." The first climbing guide to the Santa Monica Mountains and only 1000 copies printed
Jude Bischoff
1. original painting
Cyndie Bransford
1. a climber's quilt
2. a metal climbing sculpture
G Lee
1. Single pair Mint size 41 1/2 Montelliana's
2. Single pair Mint size 41 Eb's
John Bachar
1. Two Pair of free ACOPA shooz...
Supertopo/Chris McNamara
Guidebooks:
1. Yosemite Free Climbing
2. High Sierra
3. Tuolomne guidebooks
Mike.
1. Yosemite Big Walls first edition
2. Three t-shirts with big wall graphics
TYeary
1. Great Pacific Iron Works T, size large w/ original art
2. One pair of new EB's
Pocoloco
1. A CASE of salsa from Chilo’s Chile
Steve Grossman
1. Chouinard Long Dong Nutscratcher signed by Royal Robbins, Mike Sherrick and Jerry Gallwas #10 of 23
Socalbolter/Louie
1. some copies of the Riverside Quarry guidebook
Mike Graham
1. Two pair Stonemaster Gear pants
Brass Nuts
1. Rocky Heights: seminal Boulder climbing guide authored & signed by Jim Erickson
Mr. E
1. Colorado Bouldering Guide by Philip Benningfield
Thanks everyone for your generous and supportive contributions !!!
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
|
I am really stoked for this weekend.
I am not in shape for climbing, I can help out a bunch so somebody else can go climb on Saturday. I should be there Friday afternoon.
Should I stop in at the Gordon Ranch to "check in?" Or just see you all about 11ish on Saturday? That's about as early as I can rally the Finner.
I may be persuaded to grunt my way up something easy with the old dad's and gal's on Sunday.
ho man, I got a lot of work to do in less than 48 hours!
Just got out of Tuolumne and am whipped, too much sun!
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
|
Barbarian, it was the 5K. We did the 2K the year before.
Where are you in the pic?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 07:47pm PT
|
Julia, I'm arriving @ 3 on Friday. I'll email you my cell if ya wanna go to dinner and/or Todd's. Lynne
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The Doctor
Social climber
Da Bronx
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
|
UNI!
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
|
If anyone needs anything, has a question, needs to drop anything off, wants to hang, or help me clean up the house or put away toys;..... ...whatever;.....I'm taking a "mental health" day from work on Friday, and will be doing my "mental health" thing......but will be back from the crags by 4 or 5 PM......call or come over if you need anything or want to lend a hand........Sat. AM I will be off to do a climb (If you don't climb on Sat. you are a pussy....)....but will be back by (hopefully) 10 AM, and then hanging the rest of the day......If you are in Joshua Tree and are bored or ready to lend a hand, ....like I said, call or come over;.....Andrea and the boys are visiting her brother in N. Cal until Sunday, so it's Gordon Ranch revisited ......for a few days anyways;......and at the Gordon Ranch, the only rule is............NO RULES!.....see ya'all soon.........(760) 366-9395.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 10:07pm PT
|
Are The Doctor and The Posse coming from New Mexico....? Is that where you're at ? Bocce anyone :DD
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
|
Does any one but me want any unagi? Nature, can you do something with that? Any other fish preferences out there?
Dale- sorry you cannot make it. I spent some time watching you do laps on the crack machine at DR's, with the tunes cranking from the van. You made it look so effortless.
I was (am) a wanker, but watching you flow on that machine is etched in my mind. Just listening to the tunes and appreciating the movement.
Cheers Man.
EDIT MAJOR OOPS: Long day, I saw pewf and read it as perswig. Amanda, I hope you are good.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
|
John - I ordered unagi from San Diego.
Also, Anago is salt water eel. It's really similar and I prefer it.
yum!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
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Apr 22, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
|
But the freshwater eel is now invading Florida as an exotic.
Its really devastating native species, but as it proliferates I bet the price will go down.
Interesting to note that kudzo, long a curse, has turned out to be a viable fuel alcohol source.
But alien species is generally a bad idea, even at a Tarbuster benefit.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
|
Then why are they farming freshwater eel in Korea instead of fishing for 'em in Florida?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
|
Heading back to the car.
Carry on.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 10:55pm PT
|
Flying to LA in the wee a.m. to see the folks and then will be over early friday. Never been down that way before and am pathetically out of shape after a PNW winter of computer work - could anyone point me in the direction of (I'm assuming) a formation that might harbor a some 5.7-5.9 [preferrably trad] lines so I can get the feel of the place before being completely spanked on Saturday? Thanks.
P.S. I'll eat whatever you've got on the sushi front - you guys were magnificent at the first one...!
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
|
If you have not done walk on the wild side. 5.8 and sweet.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
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|
Apr 22, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
|
Like I said, give it time.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2009 - 11:51pm PT
|
A good place for moderates on the way in to Hidden Valley is a cliff called Hemingway Buttress, on your right.
Even before that is trashcan rock; although I don't know if it's been called that for years, also on the right.
It is very casual and has some easy stuff on the backside...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Apr 23, 2009 - 10:00am PT
|
Thanks Tar. Am sitting in PDX waiting for a flight to John Wayne's finest.
SushiTree - completely pscyched...!
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 11:29am PT
|
Best of wishes to the one and only Tarbuster. I hope this is the climber's social event of the decade and that Roy can finally get some answers. I am bumming out heavily that I can't get away now. Cheers to all!
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|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
|
Looking forward to seeing many old friends and ST'ers I haven't the pleasure of meeting.
The guidebooks I'm bringing for the auction will be signed by as many locals (and "historical figures/big names") as possible.
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annaleis
Trad climber
Big Bear Lake, CA
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
|
Soo my partners bailed on me for this weekend, and it's looking like I won't make it out. I won't come out there and NOT climb. That's just plain ridiculous.
Thanks for hosting, Todd, and health to you, Tarbuster.
~On a lease
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
|
Apr 23, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
|
There'll be plenty of partners to choose from. . .
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annaleis
Trad climber
Big Bear Lake, CA
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 02:37pm PT
|
Persuasive...
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
|
Anna
I wasn't trying to be a jerk. . .
there'll be loads of people there.
I wish I could be so I could bid on some stuff
and eat sushi!!!!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
|
yeah anna.... there'll be more than enough other folks around w/o partners. Probably most....
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goatboy smellz
climber
dirty south
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 04:24pm PT
|
People are coming from everywhere.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
|
Don't know if you're "out there" nature....I'm packing up tonight do you still want the canopy ? :D lrl
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
|
if you have room, sure.
nature
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
|
Hey, how did this get back here, back to page 1 with you!
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
|
So out of the blue I get a call from Jim Dutzi! We haven't spoken in a decade or more, yet he rings me up... He's apparently in Temecula, and he got all the details and directions on getting to Todd's place. Says he'll be there for sure. Add one more to the guest list!
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henny
Social climber
The Past
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
|
The guidebooks I'm bringing for the auction will be signed by as many locals (and "historical figures/big names") as possible.
Is that a good idea? Seems like you'd want to somehow appreciate the value, not depreciate it by having a bunch of low lifes sign it.
You're not really going to let KP sign something.
Are you???
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Apr 23, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
|
Hope the best for all you folks...Roy is a good person, glad to see the community rally around one of it's own.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Apr 23, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
|
Just arrived in beautiful downtown Yucca Valley, hanging at the library and using their computer terminal. I'm free for modest adventures Friday, and Saturday morning - I have a work teleconference meeting Saturday afternoon. (Hence staying at a motel - work expense.) I can be reached (I think) at (760) 228-1773, room 217, after about 8:30 tonight, or in the morning.
Looking forward to seeing a bunch of you, meeting a bunch more.
Edit: I'll be online for another 15 minutes tonight. Just saw Todd's note - will be there Friday after 5 to help as needed. Or earlier, if desired.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
|
Stich, I am sure others will. But I will also do my best to take pics and give a good TR. lynnie
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
Apr 23, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
|
Su-wheat. The monkeys are about to descend on the campfire. This is gonna be good!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 23, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
|
who likes Natto? I bought some. hee hee.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 12:07am PT
|
NO! stinky beans are gross!
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|
nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 24, 2009 - 12:08am PT
|
I know. But you were the one that wanted exotic :-)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 02:44am PT
|
What you doing at my house?....
yeah;......
Where are the Stone Nudes?....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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|
Apr 24, 2009 - 10:23am PT
|
bump. safe travels to all. stop. arrive ranch @ 5. stop. need anything else ? stop. email before noon. hehehe, lookin' forward. lrl
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
|
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|
Apr 24, 2009 - 10:26am PT
|
Lynne,
Are you bringing a rope?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 24, 2009 - 10:29am PT
|
maybe i should start packin' instead of reading the taco...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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|
Apr 24, 2009 - 10:38am PT
|
Lock up the women......
Doug MacRudy is on his way!
He'll be there in ten hours........
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 10:39am PT
|
Looking west, scheming.
Watch out, I'm telling you.
There's more than a couple guys she wants to have a word with this weekend.
She also mentioned wanting March in next years Stone Nudes.
Have fun everybody!
And don't say I didn't warn ya.
jefe
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 10:50am PT
|
Todd,
I know you told me it was full of "stuff" but if you had a bunch of volunteers to help today could we make it possible to climb "downstairs" during the benefit?
|
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 10:50am PT
|
If Lynne doesn't bring a rope, I have one, so we can, oh never mind.
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|
nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 11:31am PT
|
I'm hoping to climb Sunday. That is if I get my set up broken down and the dishes done. I'm going light though - shoes, harness, chalkbag, chicken.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 11:59am PT
|
We climb, therefore we bring a rope :DD Hey julia, maybe we can find some rocks hounds for Sunday ..... :))lrl
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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|
Apr 24, 2009 - 12:17pm PT
|
Wayne;....it's possible to get the climbing gym climbable;...it would take about 5 people maybe 2 or 3 hours.......I'm game..........this place is not party ready yet;.....I need help.........thanks.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
|
ok, it's official, i can't go. really sorry to miss yet another jtree event, but i've worked every day for the last two months, and i'll probably get a day off this weekend, but no more than that.
best of luck to tar and everyone have fun.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
|
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|
Apr 24, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
|
Todd,
That's AWESOME!
We are leaving Ventura in an hour or so. Puts us at your place early afternoon. I have lots of helpers with me.
C-YA!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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|
Apr 24, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
|
I must work... but I really just want to hit the road and drink beers soon!
|
|
zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
|
Doug,
I'll help you with cleanup on Sunday am.
Lynne wants to climb Bearded Cabbage, and Left Ski Track Saturday morning, and then we will come over and help you set up.
Lynne is feeling pretty strong right now, but I may try to lead something too.
Anyone know if a single 60M will get me off Double Cross?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 24, 2009 - 01:06pm PT
|
Anyone know if a single 60M will get me off Double Cross?
Yeah, easy money.
Don't forget a few extra quickdraws for the bolts at the start leading up to the crack.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 24, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
|
you only need one draw..... three of the four bolts have been chopped.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Apr 24, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
|
Thx for the Beta.
I didn't know there were any bolts. I'll just bring quick draws.
That's what I love about this site. People always willing to help others out.
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annaleis
Trad climber
Big Bear Lake, CA
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Apr 24, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
|
RE: Steve, No offense taken! You really were persuading me.
Travel safely every one! I'm loving the excitement in here!
~On a lease
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Apr 24, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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Tarbuster and the posse, in route...
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
|
yeah zip... any time we can sandbahhh.... I mean help we're happy to !
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 24, 2009 - 01:52pm PT
|
where is OC?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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I have a 70m rope.
1) Zip, do NOT believe a word they say
2) Everyone else, do NOT believe a word Zip says !
You're blowing my cool....I've never led....BC, Hah, right ! :D
Anyone want homemade buffalo roast, enchiladas for dinner tonight? Already made.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
|
hahahah - look at the horses and S/topo's pic!
Have fun everyone!
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
|
aji= spanish mackeral. caught in time and changed it to ahi= big eye.
sushi at 24 hours and counting down.
Edit: not to be confused with Big Guy Largo
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
|
where is OC?
Its actually, "the OC".
County a l'orange.
Aka home of SNA, John Wayne...murf...
-Brian in SLC
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
|
big eye... good good. I prefer that Tuna. Nice catch on the aji vs ahi. That wouldn't have been so great.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
|
I've got my rope, rack, etc etc.
Will be out there in the wee hours once I get off work later tonight.
See you all Saturday!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
|
Doug, Todd - I'll be at the ranch, late afternoon today. On line for a little bit now, then hoping to meet healyje for a bit of exercise. Let me know if there's anything I should/shouldn't be doing - apart from calling my aunt for her birthday, that is.
I don't have a cell phone or laptop, but you can leave messages at (760) 228-1773, room 217. (The number I posted last night was incorrect - now edited.)
Goatboy Smellz (aka Eric) is staying downstairs, with his dog team - he figured out last night that we were in the same place, rounded me up, and we went to the Joshua Tree Saloon for a beer.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
|
THE DOCTOR.....it will so cool to see ya again !
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
|
Lynne gets post #666. !!!!1111
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:47pm PT
|
Crap, I wanted the devil's post #.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
|
I deleted one of mine, Flouride, it's yours now.
Show me those pointy ears and that tail!!!!
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Apr 24, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
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I've got my cheetah skin fleece Fish Kingsbury packed so I'll do my best. I'll look like a beast, not sure if it's a 666 marked one.
I'm sure Lynne is happy to rid the 666 title to me. Per Mr. Crowley I should graciously accept :)
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
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|
Apr 24, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
|
This is gonna have one honking yellowtail!
Nature is going to need a bigger knife...dum da dum dum, dum da dum dum...
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
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|
Apr 24, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
|
Just make sure you don't get stamped with that Chouinard tramp
stamp like on that funky chicken of nature and jefe's
hee hee hee
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
|
A fish my knife cannot sashimi I have KNOTT yet met.
But yes... a 10lb Hamachi is gonna be a little work.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
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Hey Fluoride.....see ya out there:D I rarely look to see what number is up on the Thread. It's just a number. Traditionally 666 represents the devil's number one man,,,,,the antichrist. Til he comes....it's just another number.
Darling, you'll look awesome in cheetah...will go grate with your beautiful green eyes. :))
Leaving now. If all goes well be there @4-5pm Peace to all. Lynne
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
|
I'm on the road! see you all very soon!
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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Apr 24, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
|
Todd,
Still need help? I'm leaving at 6am Sat. Should be there by 8. Let me know what you need me to do. Consider me at your disposal.
Doug,
Same for you.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Apr 24, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
|
Lynne,
See ya in few.
Beth,
I will probably be bivying right next to you in my chicmagnetmobile.
Feel free to knock, if you get cold, it starts snowing, a hurricane blows through, or if hell freezes over.
I will be serving breakfast at around 6:30.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
|
Yahoo! I'm flying to LA, Braden is picking me up and we should be in Josh by late Saturday morning. Looking forward to seeing you alls...
Peter
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Apr 24, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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Have fun,all!
I think 666 has your number, Fluo, fellow founding member of the Cheetah club, there are at least 2 more jonseing to join us...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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Apr 24, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
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I went climbing today,...the house was still a mess;...when I got home, Wayne and Karen Burnes and company had already cleaned up most of the house!.........amazing;...thanks;......I really don't need too much more help, but anyone who wants to come over anytime tonight (Fri.) or anytime Sat......come on over.......thanks again........We did a great new climb today;....Va-Jayjay (5.10a **) up Rattlesnake Canyon......Cheers! Todd
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Apr 24, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
|
Damn. I'm stuck in neutral. Want to be on the road.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Apr 24, 2009 - 09:47pm PT
|
I dunno, Nature you try to Sashimi (it's a verb?) that animal nickname guy, and my money is on Him!
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annaleis
Trad climber
Big Bear Lake, CA
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Apr 24, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
|
Va-Jajay... is that the wicked hook-shaped crack up in rattlesnake? I was eyeing that last weekend.
~On a lease
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2009 - 12:06am PT
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Hoh man. Largo will be there.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 25, 2009 - 02:14am PT
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In the Tree. Wind dying down, beautiful evening.
Met Dr.F (my nemesis)hehehe, and Hashbro at Todd's and we went out to dinner. Turns out Dr. F is an old friend of Dan's from back in the day, Craig F. ...and Hashbro, Spencer L. also an old climbing bud.
So after some "light" dinner discussion I am now an x-republican, independant, green, conservative....it was an interesting dinner. So much more fun to discuss issues in person...... :DD
Back at The Gordon Ranch met hossjulia and bob finn, stellar folks along with none other than healyj. Great, fun nite.
Anyone trying to call....hard for my cell to get a signal at Todd's.
Blair, see ya at 7:30 a.m. Peace and Good Nites Rest to All. lynnie
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Apr 25, 2009 - 02:39am PT
|
The Zip has arrived!
Where Da white women at?
Lynne,
We doing breakfast?
You want me to call, or just nudge you?
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Apr 25, 2009 - 08:51am PT
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5:45 AM, and all is quiet in the pit.
The sun is gettting ready to wake up, and I am ready to get on the stone.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 25, 2009 - 09:59am PT
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Houston, I have a slight problem.....I can't find my car key and your phone number is locked in my van.....Help. Please call or blast off will be delayed. We are ready to ignite.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Apr 25, 2009 - 10:17am PT
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Sounds like you are already ignited or still lit up from last night.
I met another chic this morning in the pit, and am starting to work The Zip magic, so you better get your sh#t together quick.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 25, 2009 - 10:59am PT
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I landed. Epic drive into the head wind. yikes!
I'm at The Goro Ranch.
928-699-0663
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Apr 25, 2009 - 11:42am PT
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Epic!
Lynne lost her car keys, and she thinks they are not in her car,
Waiting for AAA.
Then to Yucca to rent a car, so she can drive home, and get the extra key,
AAARGH!
Edit:
AAA has arrived, and I found the keys, in the pants pocket of the dude that was passed out in the back seat.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Apr 25, 2009 - 11:49am PT
|
Jello sent his famous autographed ice climbing tool for auction. It has been around the mountain and back. I may have to bid on that item.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 25, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
|
Just got off the phone with Roy, meeting him and Lisa in "bout 45 minutes, then we're car o vanning it to Gordo's. Go climb, be safe and see ya'll there!
Peace
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Apr 25, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
|
" I am now an x-republican, independant, green, conservative..."
Sounds like a productive dinner, too funny!
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Indianclimber
Trad climber
Lost Wages
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Apr 25, 2009 - 01:10pm PT
|
Where do you climb in josh on a windy day,anywhere protected?
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Apr 25, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
|
pigpen or the gristle, though it gets windy you won't give it much mind...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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Apr 25, 2009 - 01:52pm PT
|
Back at the library, getting ready for a business presentation (by telephone) this afternoon. Then off to Gordon ranch.
Met up with Joseph (healyje) Friday afternoon. His first visit to Joshua Tree. We went on a short tour of the park - he has a new camera, and so we took a lot of pictures of flowers in the real Hidden Valley. Later we climbed Double Cross, which seemed fitting for Joe's first route here. He claims not to climb cracks a lot, but didn't have much trouble - first outdoor route of the year for both of us.
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Double D
climber
|
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Apr 25, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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" I am now an x-republican, independant, green, conservative..."
Lynne...sounds like my buddy Spence had a bit to say at dinner... say hi to all. Tell Maysho to get his but up here soon.
Most of all, best wishes to Roy and the auction. Hopefully all the cool swill doesn't get lost in a "haze"
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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Apr 25, 2009 - 02:17pm PT
|
How can this be Healyje's first trip to JT? Has he been kept in a box for the past few decades?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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Apr 25, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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[Edit: Oops, his post is from Healyje]
Party Ho!!! Todd and company got out for an early session this morning. Nature and Ron just about have the first round of sushi done and Ron has his .22cal gatling gun set up to defend against any attempts at early sushi poaching. Roy, Lisa and assistants are setting up for the auction. The band is up and ready to go.
I'm still predicting a disaster of epic proportions - it will be a wonder if anyone can climb at all tomorrow.
Olihphant, I've assidiously avoided JT and Vedauwoo over the years after hearing fabled tales of how sharp the rock is and that fact I'm a sandstone rather than granite climber. I'm from SoIll and the sandstone there is much like in Dresden - beautiful, smooth, and lovely on bare feet and hands; i.e. I'm a whimp and I almost can't concentrate enough to climb on sharp, rough stone. So far the sharpness seems overstated at JT, at least on Double Cross.
Back in the '70s in Eldo we ran into some guys who kept saying what classics there were in Vedauwoo, except the whole time I'm staring at his brand new blue jeans covered with square tears. We ask him if he got those in Vedauwoo, he said yes and that was it for Vedauwoo - we stayed in Eldo.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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Apr 25, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
|
[From: Healyje] Locker - please do at least stop by...
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
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Apr 25, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
|
OT, Todd, I left you some email and phone messages about teaching possibilities, if you could drop me a line sometime in the aftermath of today's event I'll give you an apple.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Apr 25, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
|
Double D. Spent all afternoon working with Spencer, Blair, Tarbuster, Lisa, Barbarian, Ron Gomez and more getting the auction together. It was a blast. Will tell Spencer howdy. Don't be concerned about their imput I listen and do what is right. Peace, Lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Apr 25, 2009 - 07:47pm PT
|
Indianclimber, yes some places are more protected than others.
Fattrad, ok, we climbed and it was fun ! We set up the auction, made homemade gucamole, and now getting ready for the gig.
Edit: Don't listen to a word zip says about anything, :DDD
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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
|
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Apr 25, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
|
Lynne, please give a kiss tooo..Don & Karen Reid, and Bob Finn & HossJulia..Tell them it's from me...Thanks;-)
that's right,"Cheers to all"...Hope Tarbuster receives much **Love and $$.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
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Apr 25, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
|
Wish I be there!
But I ain't.
Dolphins have this week off...
Cheers and beers to all!
jb
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
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Apr 26, 2009 - 01:02am PT
|
I sure hope there'll be some grreattt! pictures of this
happenin' thing--and that Roy cleans up on that auction
thingy!
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 26, 2009 - 01:10am PT
|
Things should be in full swing right about now. Cheers to all in attendance and even to a few that aren't. Live Upfull. I can't wait for the pics.
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Evel
Trad climber
Rocky mountains
|
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Apr 26, 2009 - 01:14am PT
|
Tippin' a PBR for ya Roy!
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
|
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Apr 26, 2009 - 02:35am PT
|
DANG,
It's 11:30, and this party is still going, and Nature is still serving Sushi.
Great slide shows by Dean and John Long.
The Cactus Pricks are playing right now.
Nature and I were top bidders for the Acopa shoes that JB donated.
Quite an event.
The Supertopians showed up in mass, and stepped up to the plate and donated some gear and raised some cash.
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alhashbro
Sport climber
Haleiwa, Hawaii
|
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Apr 26, 2009 - 03:36am PT
|
Hi Rick,Mike,Largo,Richard,Todd, Randy, Dave, Craig, and everyone else..... wish I had been able to arrange a trip to the event... regards to everyone and my thoughts are with Roy!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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Apr 26, 2009 - 03:55am PT
|
Well, it was a great time ! Lots of pictures to show you all so you can get the fun and feel of the event. Will post on Monday. Climbing tomorrow.
I think the auction went well. The Sushi was really incredible and I mean it ! And the Band....the wonderful Cactus Guys were Super!
Todd Gordon, thanks for your tremendous hospitality! And thank you, all you Super Tacos and Tacoettes for introducing yourselves to lynnie. Great to meet so many in the real !!! Peace and a Great Nite.
ps, the wind calmed down and it wasn't cold. This was a blessing I thank you know who for. :DD
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
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Apr 26, 2009 - 04:01am PT
|
hey there tarbuster and all.... say, sorry couldnt be there to help.... i do great in the clean up, and such... :)
don't have much more to offer in the way of helps, though...
but do love the fun! ....
god bless to all...
thanks for the share, lynne...
best wishes again, to tarbuster... :)
three cheers to all this friends that care so very very much!
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
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Apr 26, 2009 - 10:12am PT
|
Locker, What about dropping the shoe stuff and getting back into photography? Bad associations? You got skills, there.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
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Apr 26, 2009 - 11:36am PT
|
LOTS of photos were taken - will download later. Dwain and his chick were quite the site. I heard the girl is, well, a bit easy. I had NO idea how bad though. When I met here, she was digging in his pockets.
The original pocket-pool-playing-chicken. Disgusting. :)
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
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Apr 26, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
|
Some auction action:
Great times.
Thanks!
-Brian in SLC
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
|
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Apr 26, 2009 - 12:50pm PT
|
tHAT'S cOSMIC FOR YA, ALWAYS CHOKIN THE CHICKIN.
and remember, a bucket o chicken doesen't Feed a family, it Contains a family.
how many hangovers?
how many freaks?
in the world today?
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
|
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|
Apr 26, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
|
All done cleaning up at Todd's place, and Nature's truck is all loaded up.
The whole gang is headed in to the park to climb,
Look out, here come the supertopians!
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Climbing Chickenslut
Social climber
my currant boyfriends house
|
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|
Apr 26, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
|
Hi you all.
I sure had fun at the Party last night,
EXCEPT for that one moment when some crazy, woman loving,
climber named ZIP tried to steal me away from Cosmic.
Boy, did I put up a Squawk!
I had a pleasent nite after Cosmic got me home,
He really likes the way I
give finger!!!
I will write more later.
Cosmic is taking me out and teaching me how to wash windows.
Gertrude
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
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Apr 26, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
|
Hadn't realized I'd be the only assistant chef starting out or I would have started eating much sooner.
There were times when nature went up to the auction where I had to wave my sushi knife like a sword to keep the scavenging "birds" from snatching stuff from the damn cutting board while I was working on it!
Great party though, good food, old and new friends, terrific slide show (even if they DID frame me as the guy who hammered the rope Tobin jugged LOL) and the Cactus Pricks too.
Got up before first light, washed my knives and board, fleeced up my chit, and got to use the crapper unrushed (I left before 7:00 and there was already a line!)
NOBODY on the roads and now I have a new record time home without even driving german (the beemer wouldn't have made Todd's driveway).
Cheers all, thanks Todd
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
|
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|
Apr 26, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
|
LOL Ron - waving the knife to hold back the horde! - been there and done that at the last 2 Facelifts while helping Naturesan makes the grub.
I made the mistake my first year of forgetting to eat myself - lots of sake "tips" and no food equals bad night at black rock. I have since learned to eat during prep and make sure that the cut-offs go down the gullet throughout the night as well.
As for the starving masses - nothing like looking up at a few hundred hungry people waving their hands in your face like some hydra from hell.
Makes you feel like a rice seller in Ethiopia!
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
|
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|
Apr 26, 2009 - 08:51pm PT
|
Hey Brassnuts...
What'd I get? Huh? Good stuff?
Prod.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
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|
Apr 27, 2009 - 09:56am PT
|
Hey Locker, get hold of me and tell me how to post up these damn photos, I gots tons of em to post up, believe it or not EVEN some of people climbing! Great to see you out there, got some good shots of the crowds, so if someone can help me out, I'll post up soon. It was a great time with all the buds and I hope it got some money up for Roy and Lisa.
Peace
Thanks to Todd for all he did and to all those that showed up early to help get things going.
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Indianclimber
Trad climber
Lost Wages
|
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|
Apr 27, 2009 - 10:27am PT
|
Well we missed the party on Saturday but were lucky enough to run into the gang on Sunday am hanging out at the thin wall
Of course it was not all hanging and some climbing was done
Thanks to everyone for a great morning
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F10
Trad climber
e350
|
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|
Apr 27, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
|
Indianclimber, we headed for the Thin Wall(crowded), so the group headed to Sports Challenge rock instead. Sorry I didn't get to actually meet you, but thanks for posting up some good pic's of the group
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
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|
Apr 27, 2009 - 03:15pm PT
|
Hey, Dr.F too bad countries can't make friends with each other like we did :D
I'M POSTING ALL MY PICS ON DEE EE'S THREAD...I HAVE QUITE A FEW, PEACE, LYNNE
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
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Apr 27, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
|
Locker, I've gotten to the point of loading them onto the computer under Picasa 3, will this do or do I gotta do something more techy than that. Maybe I should just "burn"(not to be taken wrong)the photos onto a disk and sent them to you Locker???? In any case they're off my camera and onto Picasa.
Peace
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Vulva, Wyoming
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Apr 27, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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It was great to meet my healer, Ron Gomez and get the good word.... "16 weeks and you might be healed".
and of note:
Dr. F (head sheepbugger back in the day) Chuckleman, Freriks, Larry Loads, Moe and Mar, The kIng himself Largo, Roy of course, Goatboysmellz, a gurgled Murf, Nature and the Piton Ron, the Mighty Hiker, Joseph, and be able to pick the brain of the man with two names: Tom Michael..... Dave Tapes.... tons more I'm sure....
Good show people!
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Apr 27, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
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Ron, just do pics the simple way. Download the onto your harddrive (My Pictures). You can either resize them in Windows Picture Manager (maybe 800 x 800 maximum) and then upload them for free to an online service (Photobucket.com). Or you can probably just upload them directly and they will probably get autmatically resized.
Open Supertopo Reply to this thread in one window and Photobucket in another. Now just put our mouse over the Photobucket image and then click the IMG line that shows up below (select "copy").
Paste this on the Supertopo Reply.
Type caption, slander, comments, TR, lies, etc below.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Apr 27, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
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I saw the lovely Medium Sooze, but somehow missed Russ completely (though there was a shot or two of him in the "glory days" in Dean's magnificant slide show).
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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Ron, you could also mail your CD to me or call on phone or I could cruise over and show you how to do it. Peace, and great to see ya ! And Chef Ron, thanks for the help with the quacamole. :D
Load your pics onto your computer and open a Photobucket account, FREE.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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Yeah Russ, you caught me at a BAD time. We gotta talk a bit more on the problem at hand(careful to respect yer medical confidentiality)The taping we talked about could buy some time, but man yer just too dang lax brother. Somethings are fixable and somethings ya just gotta let the body do its thing and heal! Give me a call or shoot an email....we can talk when I'm not so buzzed!
Peace
Russ was GOOD to see you.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 27, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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I can't wait to see Ron's picts of the fish I was slinging around.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
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Edit: Gal with cowboy hat is hossjulia and The Doctor (with skull cap)
Super Great Pictures Ron !!!
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Apr 27, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Hey there.......say, It was great meeting everyone that I haven't met. I guess you may have figured out why they call me Blitzo!
I shot some photos, but I hate flash and the photos SUCK!!!!
The usual suspects.
locker.
Cosmic.
Blitzo and I can't remember.
I hate photos of me! Photo by Steve Swan.
Peter Mayfield was there and so was his son Braden (no photos).
Crimpy met Tucker.
Sooze likes this version better.
She didn't get to see his garden.
And who is this? Does she come here often?
Then the band started.
Dan Zacks.
Don Reid.
When the band started playing, The Sushi Bar started rockin'!
Photos by Blitzo.
More to come, I'm at work and the boss is breathing down my neck and askin' why I'm moving like a mannequin.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
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ANYONE know how to work with Picasa photo stuff? Roy helped me with the photobucket stuff, but it's taking FOREVER for this stuff to load. If it can be done any quicker more effecient directly through picasa PLEASE email me or post up. Got lots of pictures, but at the pace I'm going it could be till next reunion till I get it all done!!
Thanks
Peace
Ron
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 06:17pm PT
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Super shots Blitzo !!!
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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The hostest and the mostest
lisa, roy, nature and the salmon
Dave?, julia, roy and Yabo
don't even ask
lynnie, roy and ellie hawkins
lisa and spencer getting the auction ready
dave evans, spencer lennard, lynne leichtfuss and roy
dave wonderly and roy
Cosmic, julia lynne and barbarian
locker, todd gordon and dave evans
the knuckleheads
gordo signing the book, dave evans takin'the ducats
jeff lowe's axe and book signed by the one and only Layton Kor
steve west, randy vogel, dave wonderly
"that's powell, not rowell" Wonderly trying to be powell
jim dutzi signing books,Fry, vogel and roy in back
jim dutzi and lisa mcclennahan
dutzi and vogel prob'ly talkin smack
twin brothers from different mothers, locker and cosmic
Yeah grab this and put yer foot there and yada yada yada
randy and dave talkin sh#t. Mike Graham in back
OK I gotta take a break and put up another posting with more pics. Hope this ain't boring you!
Peace
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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Ron, it takes me forever too. Thought it was me or my computer. If you find a better program, let me know....but your pics are great. Was it not a Superior Event ?! lynnie
Edit: above photo that would be Barbarian on far rt.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Apr 27, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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Ron, it takes me forever also. I just want to quit posting photos, but I'm OCD!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 27, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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Oh my.... that's a money shot, Blitzo. I just kept feeding them uni and quail egg and they never left....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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Blitzo, Then I guess I'm part of an elite club .....hehehe
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 07:30pm PT
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I'm posting guys, got it figured out the best I can. I'll keep em coming!
Peace
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
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lisa Roy and rick accomazzo
robs muir, steve west and(i met you, but forgot yer name John bard??)
clark jacobs and cosmic
darryl hensel, rick accomazzo, clark jacbs
tucker WITHOUT a beer and the finger
wonderly and lennard at sushi
unidentfied on L, christine(she made steve west look good that night
BIG Bob Bolton
cosmic(in back) bob gaines(vertical adventures) and John Long
bob gaines,kevin powell,roy and randy vogel
annastasia and roy
lisa and ellie hawkins
lynne and zip
callie
roy decked in his sunday best
proff that roy DOES climb, he may be paying for it the next year!
zip and THE jim wilson
ellie hawkins and bob finn
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Apr 27, 2009 - 08:04pm PT
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Ron that's Mr. Crusher with Bolton and the back of Powell. I'm hiding in front of Powell. (Not really I'm just short).
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
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Crusher is that you facing the photo on the L of bolton? If so I'll put yer name in!
Peace
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Apr 27, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
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locker, you're on beam-up!
I would have loved to go climbing with everyone, but I was workin'.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Apr 27, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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Awesome photo onslaught!!!11
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Apr 27, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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Hi Lynne,
No you can't see me at all. I'll try to put some pics in later - we got home waaaaay too late last night!
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 27, 2009 - 08:46pm PT
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Luv the photos pholks!
Thanks! Looking phorward to more!!!!1111
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 08:50pm PT
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some older photos but of the same crew
gomez in the sierra
south crack
gomez on reeds direct
gomez on the "5.9" traverse, royal arches late 70's
Dr fred zeal glacier apron
dave wonderly and prebble marshal joshua tree
russ, dick ciley pat ney, boulder contest, rooo B dooo
pat ney
check out john longs belay hand, climb on Dave wonderly
Yabo with APE FACTOR, santee bouldering contest
bouldering corona del mar gomez
Yeah man it's Powell not Rowell!
andre olebre with solid pro on suicide. That's a bolt that just fell out after I lead it!
bachar crankin the winning problem, santee bouldering contest. Shawn Curtis with the red hair in front, probably gettin the GOOD photo
before the remodel
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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You're on a righteous roll now.....Go Go Gomez bwahahaha !!!
Crusher, we be waiting :DD
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Apr 27, 2009 - 09:03pm PT
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Ron, The old school photos are great! More please.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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OLD SCHOOL!!!!! Damn am I old school now???? Hope yous are all enjoying it. Blame Roy he got me hooked up on the phone and on the road!
Peace
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 27, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
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Now I'm kicking myself.
Don't get me wrong, it was a great party. I got to see old friends and make a few new ones after just introducing myself to new faces, but seeing identifying photos now of some of the people I didn't get to is a pisser because it turns out I often already knew who they were.
Maybe using those hokey nametag type deals isn't such a bad idea given the faceless nature of much posting.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Apr 27, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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Man, Dick Cilley looks just the same. Crazy.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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My theory is....if you're close enough to read the name tag, you're close enough to say with a smile, "Hi, I'm lynne and you are ?"
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 27, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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hey there, say... i just saw blitzo stopped by with some photos and a 'right nice' 'hey there, say'....
say, just like locker... i am on dial-up and i get red x's... and then after waiting for awhile, i DO get some photos show up...
i will have to come back later to see the rest, as this takes wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too long... saw the nice cactus garden , and saw tarbuster and lisa? (name right?) and saw hoss julia in the ol cowboy hat... say most all of blitzo's black and white, but other photos i have to go hit the red x, or they won't open..
thanks for the wonderful share, all...
god bless, to all... :)
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 27, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
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Damn Gomez
Del Mar
You looked buff!
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Apr 27, 2009 - 09:53pm PT
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Mr. Gomez, keep it up, you are on fire.
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Nick
climber
portland, Oregon
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Apr 27, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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Man, wish I had made the shindig. Even if Roy pays for the climbing all the good vibes will make his heart feel good. Keep post'n Ron!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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Great to see everyone. Good to see that kind of support for Brother Roy.
Sunday: DB, Sara and Dan on top of The Blade.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 27, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
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I've been posting some photos on the other thread. I can't believe how many tacos I was around and didn't even know it. I am a huge fan of name tags. I'm so bummed I didn't get to meet so many of you though I was probably standing right next to you!
Friggin' great time in J-Tree. :)
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Apr 27, 2009 - 10:01pm PT
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We all can agree that Tarbuster and his wife are both beautiful and inspirational! They really are even better in person. Of coarse Todd Gordon was a fantastic host! Nature and Ron did magic, "plus that other helper (name?) all made great sushi! Yes, the auction was great, the slideshow was great, the music was great, etc. How could such an event not be good? I really believe only great things can happen around such a crowd.
Thank you Lynne for dragging me out! Thank you Cosmic for your kindness etc.
Plus... I must give a shout out to everyone else that I had a great chance to meet, see again, etc. (I can't list you all, there was so many of you that my head is still working through the memories.)
Beyond that, I am really impressed upon how many folks from Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, and Canada were there! Talk about dedicated and awesome!
----------------
Now as for the mystery identities of the women in Blitzo's pictures...
Blitzo,
The beautiful blond you are posing with is Karin Burnes, a Ventura/LA climber who along with her husband have recently become Joshua Tree residents.
The other beauty, the brunette in white is Teresa Szabo who happens to be a good friend of Karin's. Both women are fantastic climbers that are regular visitors of the park.
:)
AF
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 27, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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Hey Prod -
You did very well at the auction! You will be receiving a very cool DVD (clean walls DVD by Lowe and Piton Ron I think) and a certificate for a pair of Evolve shoes! Congratulations!!!
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dogtown
climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
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Apr 27, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
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Boy, did I screw up by missing this one the whole old school T and S gang in attendants except me and Simms. But there was just no way with only two weeks to go till retirement it was an impossible date too make. Glad everyone had a good time and came out for Roy!
Bruce.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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Also doing well at the auction was zip. He bought Jude Bischoff's Camp 46 in Hidden Valley. This pic taken at the very site where the now owner of this original piece spent many good times.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Apr 27, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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Yeah, Dogtown, it would have been good to see you again.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Apr 27, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
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Thanks Anastasia! Karin and Teresa. Got it! They are wonderful!
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susan peplow
climber
www.joshuatreevacationhomes.com
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Apr 27, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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AF, sorry I missed you (again) we came in late and it was pretty dark back there. Maybe next time.
As Blitzo downloaded his photo's today, I declared that Teresa (who I did not meet) is incapable of taking anything less than a stunning photograph.
It sure looks like those girls Karin, Teresa and Ellen were having a great time. I talked with Ellen a bit at the sushi-booth. Very nice.
Super great turn out. Thanks Gordo for your hospitality, you're a good friend to have!
~Susan
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 27, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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ok-- now really sorry to have missed it, if only for the collection of bad retro haircuts.
ron could dye his hair, and it'd be 1982 all over again.
btw-- is that the first pic of andre on st? anyone know where he is these days?
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F10
Trad climber
e350
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Apr 27, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
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Awesome time with a great bunch people, a big thanks to everyone involved especially Todd for hosting this event.
Photos to follow in a few days, all the best to Roy
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 27, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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Kerwin, WTF dye my hair???? Dude at least I still have my hair, I guess all in all it's a compliment to have said all that's changed in uh uh 30 years is my hair is grey, but then Bachar said I LOOKED buff...not I am STILL buff. Andre was at last years Josh reunion, check out those pictures, he is givin' Roy some money owed. He too looks the same, just a little greyer and heavier...much like me. I got a classic photo of you, Andre, Trippers girlfriend and Bob Kretchfield at the base of the Grack in Yosemite, from long ago, if I can find it I'll "try" to post it.
Missed you, but I do look forward to reading your research you told me about someday!
Peace
Andre is in Riverside, last I heard.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 28, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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more old crusty pictures, anyone you know? wonderly and tripper up the nose
jack marshall trippin in the cholla garden
scott erler on abstract roller disco??
I love the rocks in Yosemite, Carl Sharsmith taught me to love whats on the ground
dave wonderly on bird on a wire
kathy, kerwin, andre olebre and bob kretchfield yosemite
andre olebre and bob kretchfield diggin for cans, yosemite
Nick Badyrka showing his boyscout fire method. Remember this trip Nick???
Badyrka belaying on Stately Pleasure. circa early 80's
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Apr 28, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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Good to see such a good turn out and support
Wish I could of made it
Cheers to you all!
Tom
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 28, 2009 - 12:46am PT
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Russ appeared later, and was in fine form. He was not only leaning against my car, but had parked his manpurse on it. I had to remind him of what happened to Richard Dreyfuss (Curt) in American Graffiti, when he leaned on and scratched the Pharaoh's ride. (Think cable, and cop car.) Then we got into a discussion of whether or not Richard Dreyfuss is Canadian - as token Canadian present, I had to uphold national honour. Fortunately Celine Dion was busy.
Back to the Land of Green. Very soothing - you can actually smell it. Tons of stuff blooming and getting green, even in the last ten days.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Apr 28, 2009 - 01:08am PT
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WHAT?????????
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 28, 2009 - 01:34am PT
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This last weekend, we raised money for our friend Roy "Beadwagon" McClannahan........yes;...we raised money;....but that was the tiny excuse we used to get together to raise our spirits, our glasses to ourselves and each other.....to raise our heads high in pride at our friendships that have spanned decades......to raise a grand hip-hip horray for ourselves that we still are here on the planet and shaking our money makers and throwing it down (best we can....)......As human beings, we all need to be a part of something....feel like we belong, and be loved, appreciated , and respected for who we are, just as we are. I felt a part of something grand, powerful, awesome, kind and caring........I hope everyone had similar feelings; feelings of being part of a community that looks after each other in the true sense of the word family. The Gordon Ranch was once again alive with the wild and wooly world of the the climbing community...............yeah;.....it was at my house;...my home,...but it's your home too....the home and protective unbrella of alot of climbers;.....who look after one another like a big brother does to his little siblings......It felt great to me...hope you felt at home as well....for many;...this was a revisit to a place where they had spent a few days(months/years) before ....so it was a coming home for them....a remembrance of hopefully great times and experiences from their past......and I had the added bonus of Sunday at about 1:00 in the afternoon, to see the climbing Gordon Ranch of yesteryear.....melt away as the climbers all left (most of them anyways...)....and my wife and children returned back home and started up with their wonderful chaos, nonsense, messes, and fantastic insanity that I cherish so dearly.... ....I even got in 4 climbs last weekend, ......including 2 excellent new routes.......................all in all, a most wonderful weekend;....about as good as it gets........which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes....(which I often misquote...)......" Life is full of so many wonderful things.....we should all live as if we are kings." Thanks to all for making this last weekend a great, fun, and meaningful time/experience....and to the crew who helped with the set up and clean up..........
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Apr 28, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Powell and Billy B.
Powell and I
Powell exploring Bolton's armpit
A tale of two Daves
The lovely Mari
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 28, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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The thanks goes to you and your family Todd
Muchos gracias
Peace
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Apr 28, 2009 - 07:56am PT
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Cool, thanks Crimpie and Brassnutz!
Prod.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Apr 28, 2009 - 08:10am PT
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Thank you, Todd, for a great shindig! It was the cap of 8 straight days of dirt baggin' it in JT for me and my brother, and some friends who were able to join us for part of the time. I'm back in Seattle now (where it's raining), and still wishing I was down there. It was really great to put faces and personalities to so many people on ST. Thanks for hangin' with us at lunch before the party began, Todd. Man, you are root beer through the nose funny!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 28, 2009 - 09:48am PT
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Mooser, it was great to meet you and your bro. Blessing to you and your family.
Todd is one of the most caring, gifted, unique individuals I have ever met. Thanks for your hospitality Todd, the likes of which cannot be matched. The wonderment of life and people seen through your eyes is more than special and has given many of us new perspectives on living. Peace, Dude, and love to your awesome family.....Lynne
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Apr 28, 2009 - 10:30am PT
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Wish I could have stayed another week Russ reccomends I quit, seems extreme...
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Apr 28, 2009 - 03:23pm PT
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Enjoying some pre-shindig tacos at Santana's in Joshua Tree...
L-R: My little brutha, Keith; Steve Belford; Todd Gordon.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Apr 28, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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Looks like good times had by all! Would have loved to have been there (but someone has to keep working to make sure this country keeps running).
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Apr 28, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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The country thanks you, Greg!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 28, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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Trying to keep the threads simo....so we be bumpin'. Peace and tons of smiles thinking of the good times ....lynnie
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JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
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Apr 28, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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I've been tagging along,on both threads,
It looks like a hellova shindig,
I recognize a few of the mugs in the pics,
Hope to meet many more.
Great stuff, lots of laughs, Best to all,
especially Tarbuster.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 29, 2009 - 12:36am PT
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bump .... trying still to keep the two threads close. What an incredible event .... hope those that could not be there enjoy these threads. If ANYONE on the Taco can make any event....you won't be disappointed. Jess let the welcoming committee know yo is coming. Peace, Lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Apr 30, 2009 - 12:23am PT
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Gezzzz, gotta bump this baby. Has pics and info of the infamous event that NO one should have missed. :DD
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 30, 2009 - 01:55am PT
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Lisa and I just returned home!
The world is at once a gnarly and wonderful place:
I don't know for sure if there is a "them" out there, but there certainly is an "us" right here, right now !!!
Whatever it is I've done to garner so much heartfelt support, I promise to keep doing it!!!
(Except for the injury part)
Grand total in contributions through initial donations gathered at "the gate" for the fundraiser at Todd's house and all of the fabulous auction items is $6,589
Current total for checks in the mail (we came home to four of them) is $7,510
HUGE THANKS to all for your generous spirit.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 30, 2009 - 02:30am PT
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A short trip report...
Our neighborhood after the big spring snowstorm a week before Todd's Tarbuster Benefit party:
Lisa, fresh from the Boston Marathon, chauffeuring me to Fort Collins for ASTYM therapy (a few days before the party):
Mt. Meeker and Long's Peak, handily spotted along the way:
Jeff Giddings a.k.a. Spectreman, performing the ASTYM therapeutic work (assisted soft tissue mobilization)
(prompting machrophage activity to digest fibrotic tissue & fibroplast recruitment to lay in healthy collagen)
The first broad strokes with a bladelike tool, contoured to fit the body:
Preparing to address the lateral tendon attachment:
Getting into it with a sharp tool at the medial attachment:
Hitting a speed bump in the architecture; extremely thick and resistant scar tissue:
Cold laser following the vigorous manual therapy:
Asking friends to help pay for tens of thousands of dollars of prior diagnostics and therapy, undertaken over a 12 year period:
($35,000 out-of-pocket in the last five years alone; yes I have health insurance)
Follow-through involves necessarily engaging a familiar exercise routine to realign new collagen fibers:
(not kidding about this; also includes a mandatory stretching regime, four times per day)
Special thanks to Jeff Giddings for performing physical therapy gratis.
And to:
Spencer Lennard for kicking the whole thing off
Todd Gordon for hosting the party
Bullwinkle and John Long for the slideshow (and Dean's fabulous artwork)
Rick Accomazzo and Randy Vogel for running the benefit auction
Nature for doing a wonderful thing with sushi + The Clean Up CREW!!!
Ron, Lynne, Dave, Scott, Anders and all who worked hard to help put the auction into form.
Everybody, and this is a lot of people, who donated cash and auction items.
Much love and thanks from Lisa and Roy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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alhashbro
Social climber
Haleiwa, Hawaii
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Apr 30, 2009 - 05:25am PT
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Hi Everyone,
Chris Robinson who also lives over here in hawaii, just brought over an interesting piece of memorabilia .. so now it is scanned.. and here is the link:
http://tinyurl.com/stonemaster-flyer-10-1974
does anyone remember this event ?
al
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Apr 30, 2009 - 09:25am PT
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Tar,
Is that a total of 14,099? or a total of 7,510?
Prod.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 30, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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The bigger better faster number.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Apr 30, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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that is awesome!
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Yes, it is awesome!
All the best Tar,
Zander
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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I think I got a couple more bucks to add to that. We covered our sushi expenses and then maybe just a little extra. Math confuses me - I'm still adding and subtracting :-)
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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We want to see you get better, Roy!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Good luck Tar, hope you heal up!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Not specifically addressed yet....Roy climbed pretty hard on Sunday. Yo Roy, how are the body parts after Sunday? You sent pretty smooth and dang good.
Watched fo' many years. Know good when seen. Peace, LrL
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sh#t Howdy!
Parts is parts Lynne.
So long as Lisa goes to work in the morning, fixes dinner at night when she gets home, washes the dishes and does all the driving in between (that's anything over a half-hour), plus any other backup allowing me a week of rest after a few hours of climbing and I'm right back where I started.
Tomorrow I do all the driving to Fort Collins and back for a therapy session (a half-hour to Boulder and an hour and a quarter to Fort Collins which I will break up with ample time between those two legs). That's a big push whether I climbed last week or month ago... I could totally pump out from the drive.
Any fine motor skill work is problematic (likely to kick back).
That means handling things with my fingers or hands.
A little climbing, say an hour two, once a week, is a lot less troublesome than a few hours of cleaning house, computering, or desk work.
The shorter answer to your question is:
I'm fine from Sunday as long as I don't do much else.
If I didn't climb on Sunday, I'd also be fine as long as I don't do much else.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Yeah, can relate with you and my Dan boys own life trip. Wish I could do more....caring, praying and most importantly hoping you keep lovin' the life you have. Great to get to know you and Lisa a bit more.
Whatever can do ....will. Peace with Smiles, lrl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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What a great Happening !!! What can I say? Everyone from the famous(those famous dudes like Dean and JL etc.)to the infamous ...put your name here, hehehe, made their presence known. It was totally great in every way and the Band Totally Rocked !!! :DD
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Bump for Tarbuster, hope you get your info ...... Happy Friday !
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