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| Messages 1 - 14 of total 14 in this topic |
apogee
climber
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Feb 17, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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Oh, the extremist, Faux News-fed right will write off Zinn as 'leftist drivel'. To my somewhat left of center eye, Zinn has lived his ideals and beliefs moreso than most of the poli-talking heads that run around on either side of the political aisle. For more good background on Zinn, Netflix this:
Howard Zinn: You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train
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jstan
climber
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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In the early fifties while in high school, I remember looking at the unvarnished history as it was well presented to us, and coming away with just such an impression.
A political philosophy frankly titled "The New American Century" and the fact the sound byte "The World's Only Superpower" could gain traction in my country, told me in 2001 that we were bound for trouble. Serious trouble that would last for a very long time.
We have hardly begun the journey out of this.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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The days of physical empire are over.
Now in the new world order we conquer with wealth and culture.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 17, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
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PR:
I would argue the empire that the US seems to have built using wealth and culture came about only because of the natural resources we found on this continent. We fought wars using that oil and its energy.
Even the trees are disappearing now and the oil is fast vanishing.
That we are being forced, in this new reality, actually to invade countries to get wealth should be evident.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Feb 17, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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Saw Zinn speak here in Blmntn in '02 and have read "The Peoples History of America". Zinn is a treat, of course, conservatives froth at the mouth upon mention of his name..
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 17, 2009 - 03:49pm PT
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jstan--are there more natural resources in N America or S America? How about if add Mexico to S. America, just to think about it.
Want to try again to figure out why US seems to have developed an empire?
I don't know the reason myself, but having natural resources, while perhaps being a necessary condition (although consider Japan), is certainly not sufficient.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Feb 17, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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So why should we not rule the cluster f*#k called earth?
End of Days grow near.
Juan
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Feb 17, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Actually the USA was indeed the worlds largest producer of crude for most of the last century. This fact played an enormous role in the USA's rise to prominence as a result of ww1 and 2.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 17, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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Something to be said for the resources argument.
We traded the greatest salmon fishery in the world for freedom, when we damned the Columbia and used the power to create aluminum (which was used to build the planes that won WWII).
But its not like we would just invade a country that had a lot of oil or something,.....
oh,.. wait.
Never mind.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 17, 2009 - 04:21pm PT
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JH wrote "Actually the USA was indeed the worlds largest producer of crude for most of the last century."
Did anyone here say that the US wasn't? (I actually don't know about historical production but have no trouble accepting the assertion it was.) My point is that many other countries had oil too, but did not industrialize in the same way the US did. Maybe they all knew the dangers of global warming, and it was just the evil-US that chose to foolishly produce/burn all that oil, while the enlightened population in the rest of the world chose to leave the oil in the ground.
Edit--and on Iraq, how's that plan to steal all Iraq's oil coming along? Haven't heard much about that recently. (Note: this is NOT an endorsement by me of the US invasion of Iraq)
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jstan
climber
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Feb 17, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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Here this morning I was going to get to work early!
BB:
We had what appeared to be an unoccupied empire because of our resources and because of an absolutely brilliant Constitution (human capital). Please note our world role increased dramatically as a result of WWII because of our resources and later our ability to expend some of them via the Marshall Plan. Proof positive is evident in that when we needed more oil resources we invaded Iraq. If we had but looked to what happened to Japan when they tried to do the same in 1941 we might have seen that
stealing wealth is now a net negative proposition.
Today's population densities make this so. After our present economic disaster is finally over this truth will be even more self-evident.
DMT:
Before I get into this I want you to put one word of yours up on a post-it.
“Advance.”
While working in industry we had a standard joke about managers who “outran their errors.” As long as you are getting promoted every other year your past mistakes will never be held against you. You out ran them. Your ass is grass as soon as you miss your first promotion. Countries do the same thing. As long as you are growing all of your errors can be swept under an ever larger rug. A good quarter is the quarter in which you finally get all the trees cut down. An even better quarter is the one in which you build and ship all the parts supposed to be delivered in the next year.
My memory is getting poor but as I remember it was in the 1500’s when Japan realized they would be like Haiti is now if they kept on cutting trees. (I am losing long-term memory so I don’t remember as much if it happened before 1800.) It became a capital crime to cut a tree and except for agricultural workers people began to concentrate in the cities. Two thirds of Japan is presently forested and I believe Japan’s population has stabilized.
You are correct that most “advances” of western civilizations have involved exploitation, either of natural or human resources.
The planet is finite. What we do and what we take as an “advance” will one day have to change.
It is possible we are approaching such a time.
Interestingly enough, in Germany where gasoline costs about $8/gal and exploitation of that resource has been proportionately reduced, the country has been pursuing technology and exploitation of their human resources.
I think we don’t even begin to realize our need to strengthen education in this country. It has never been so important.
But what I think, really is of no consequence.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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"My point is that many other countries had oil too, but did not industrialize in the same way the US"
The industrial revolution came about fueled by coal, a plentiful resource that helped countries like the USA, the UK and Germany develop into the industrial centers of the world. When it was discovered that oil was a better substitute for coal, the industrial countries went on a worldwide search for oil resources. Whereas none of the other industrialized nations (except Russia) had significant domestic oil resources, the USA was awash with oil. These oil resources were critical in both world war !&2 because Germany lay between the rest of Europe and its major oil suppliers in the caspian Basin, SE asia, and The arabian peninsula.
So the overall point is that Industrialization came first , and oil much later.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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There is a study "Wood in development of Civilization" comparing ancient slag heaps from smelting, and the rise and fall of ancient civilizations. From the amount of slag, they calculated the amount of trees consumed for the furnaces and thus the extent of forest depletion. The study found a clear and direct correlation between forest depletion and the rise and fall of early empires.
"A Repeating Process
Easy Forest Access = Society Develops
Local Forests Decline = Colonization, Diplomacy, Military Ventures
Forest Decline Continues = Decline in Society"
http://www.cof.orst.edu/cof/teach/for111/Wood%20in%20Development.pdf
Modern societies are built on the consumption of other resources as well as trees, but to me the principles appear to be the same.
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