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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 14, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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One of my goals this year to finally become proficient at climbing the wide. So, the giant cams? Are they worth it? If I'm gonna buy a couple it has to be soon before I lose my job in June. I know that many people successfully climb OW without giant cams...but I'm a pussy and I don't like bigbros.
I'd be especially interested in hearing from anyone who's fallen on one.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 14, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
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Crap!
I thought this was about mirugai.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 14, 2009 - 09:48pm PT
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I think the word on the street is if you become "proficient" then you don't need the VG's. Was it Pratt that said something like "technique is my protection"?
Anyway, I don't own any, as I'm just too poor. Your thing says SantaCruz.... there are some pretty good wide guys in them parts. Look 'em up.
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ec
climber
ca
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Feb 14, 2009 - 09:52pm PT
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"...become proficient at climbing the wide."
...is only done through the mental and physical control learned by climbing like you ain't got no pro...
LOL
 ec
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 14, 2009 - 10:06pm PT
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In the old days you'd follow a wide master around, seconding up a lot of wide problems, get your technique dialed and then be able to fire the leads with confidence.
These days, you're your own master, and shoving a cam up above you is your top rope. Now just because you have a wide cam or two (or 6? et Brutus) doesn't mean that you'll always find a place to put them. So you still have to push through some wide without pro.
But I'd say, yes to big cams. BigBros work, I've held falls off them, I've fallen on them, they work, they're a part of the quiver so you should be familiar with how to use them. They can supplement the wide end of the spectrum.
Also, it is almost universally believed that a #6 Friend is a better piece than a #5 Camelot. I think this is true... a #6 Friend is more stable, and structurally more sound, so don't buy the BD #5 if you are buying in that range.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 14, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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Valley Giants are bigger, better and stronger than #6 Friends. I've placed them, fallen on them, belayed and hauled off 'em, they're superbly crafted. They've been tested to failure at over 5000 lb, which is a lot stronger than commercially made cams.
Comparing a Valley Giant to a Big Bro is like comparing a #2 gold Camalot to a 2" bong.
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rich sims
Trad climber
co
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Feb 15, 2009 - 01:55am PT
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PPP Whats in your Bong?
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kc
Trad climber
lg, ca
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Feb 15, 2009 - 11:01am PT
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A definite 'yes' to the Valley Giants. The 9 and the 12 are really great. They place well and can hold falls (short ones, at least!). They help to boldly go up the darn wide. Good pro can never be a bad thing!
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spyork
Social climber
A prison of my own creation
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Feb 15, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
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They are pricey, they weigh alot and are bulky. But when you are leading and tired and get to a placement, you are glad you brought them. Maybe you just need that one piece in the wide to get piece of mind and the ability to finish the pitch.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 15, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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Actually, a #9 [single axle] does knott weigh that much more than a #5 [double axle] Camalot. And neither is a Valley Giant that much heavier than a #12 Big Bro, although it takes up rather more space.
Maybe you can still get a #12 magnesium [for aiding only, not for falling on as it doesn't have the same 5000 lb rating] which is quite lightweight indeed.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Feb 15, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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Ed-
You mean to compare #6 friend to #6 camelot, right?
I retired a friend when one cam lobe became floppy- I think I landed on it during a fall.
Camelots may be stronger in that respect. I have a #2 with a bent lobe, but it still functions OK.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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"These days, you're your own master, and shoving a cam up above you is your top rope. Now just because you have a wide cam or two (or 6? et Brutus) doesn't mean that you'll always find a place to put them. So you still have to push through some wide without pro."
Uhh... seven, at last count. four #9s, 3 #12s including one magnesium #12.
Good pieces for the moveable toprope.
And like The great Hartouni preacheth, you'll still need to be able to suck it up & run it out.
Big Bros are a good tool as well. As are knee pads, knee braces, elbow pads, Hand jammies, ace bandages, neoprene head piece, and tape... lots of tape... Don't forget high top shoes. Did I mention tape? Jaybro... couldja do that again? Was that a palm-out fist stack? Did someone eat my tuna? Where's my beer? Am I on belay? What were we talking about?
Brutus
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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4, 9s? Have you used em all in one pitch?
a tuna/palm sandwich sounds reaally good right now.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:00pm PT
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I agree that the large friends are better than the large camalots. My partner and I learned to climb wide cracks without valley giants. I own a couple now. The learning curve probably would have been quicker if I had always had them.
There are a number of wide cracks in the valley that you can set up a TR on without having to lead and get some practice in. But being able to push a cam up above you certainly makes it a lot easier to jump on lead and push the grades.
BBs are more compact to carry and slightly lighter, but outside of Indian Creek, I've never used them much.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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You don't need high top shoes. But if you climb in low top shoes, I would recommend taping the ankles. Long sleeve helps and some shirts have better traction than others (watch out for the super slick synthetics).
Yea, full tape job on the hands/fist/thumb is good, although a bigger issue for ow than chimneys. If you climb with kneepads, be careful. My partner had a knee jam that he slide down on a few inches and the bottom of the kneepad inverted (the bottom rolled back up the sides). He couldn't pull it out and instead spent half an hour cutting his pants leg and the knee pad out with a small knife(having a knife that is easy to access isn't such a bad idea).
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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"4, 9s? Have you used em all in one pitch? "
Nope, although I would definitely take all the 9s for the Wide Wall on El Cap, the famous and frightening Sword in the Stone. Which, if I ever did another El Cap route, would be high on my list of choices.
I HAVE used two on one pitch (and wished for more) while the other two were making their way up (for the second time) Salathe' Wall.
"Whatcha mean, 'trickle-down theory of economics'? 'Round these parts, we practice 'clatter-down' theory of cams."
Brutus
Old Climbers' Home
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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Was it Pratt that said something like "technique is my protection"?
Pratt was peerless, and only a rare few can come close.
At the other end of the spectrum are people like me, who say:
My protection is my technique.
EDIT: The Valley Giants are, indeed, heavy. But the alternative is to have a questionably strong piece. The failure mode is due to structural instability, and not strength, per se. With time and an R&D budget, the weight could be reduced, but who has any of that?
Also, I challenge anyone to say that the Valley Giant is not the best cam they've ever pushed up a crack. The solid spring wire trigger wires stabilize the head of the cam, so it doesn't turn sideways, clack open, and fall out.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 09:03pm PT
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The solid spring wire trigger wires stabilize the head of the cam, so it doesn't turn sideways, clack open, and fall out.
until, of course, you push it up to a point in the crack where it is too wide for the cam... always a tad disconcerting, especially if you have neglected to leave any pro below you.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 09:22pm PT
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Ed, when the crack gets that wide, you grab for the VG12.
When the crack is too wide for the VG12, most people can fit inside and get a no hands/no feet lock-off by simply breathing in.
If you can't fit inside a crack too big for the VG12, I can make (and have made) a special-order VG16 that is so absurd I donated one to the Yosemite Climbing Museum.
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Brian Boyd
Trad climber
Scottsdale, AZ
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Feb 16, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
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VG's are awesome. I've named each of mine. Here is Tiny in action:
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2009 - 09:48pm PT
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Tom, that's awesome. Ever fallen on the #16? Cam lobes look similar to Wild Country (or, dare I say it...Trango cams?).
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:58am PT
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When WVB said that a photo of my cams was obscene, I thought back to the time when Harding called Robbins on his Tis-Sa-Ack bolt ladders:
A man with a six-inch implement is conventional, and accepted. But, a man with nine or twelve-inch equipment is somehow obscene, out of the norm, and is not accepted.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Feb 17, 2009 - 11:37am PT
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"In the old days you'd follow a wide master around, seconding up a lot of wide problems, get your technique dialed and then be able to fire the leads with confidence"
Still the method of choice.
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Lydia
Trad climber
Tempe, AZ
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Feb 17, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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Valley Giants are awesome. Like Brian, my #9 cam has a name. "Squeaky" came out to play yesterday during a siege of "Hades" at Pinnacle Peak.
I'm totally impressed with the VG16s!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 17, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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"My name is Steve Gerberding, and I endorse the #16 Valley Giant Cam, even if it is made of plywood."
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
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This is about Valley Giants but also the tactic of sliding protection
No doubt the Valley Giants are very cool pieces of equipment and a discussion about them every now and then is good; it’s also partly a broader talk about modern protection strategies in offwidths. Many either hate or fear wide cracks largely because of protection issues. There is a myth that offwidths involve enormous runouts compared to other categories of climbing; it’s not really true even though they usually look impossible. I think that since cam devices in general were established, wide cracks have rejoined the family, so to speak and tons of people are getting permanently excited about climbing these very beautiful features instead of thinking they could ignore an important part of the larger spectrum of climbing. You don’t ever want to get yourself thinking this way. It is like thinking you can’t turn left as well as you can turn right while skiing and all the time playing this mantra to yourself as you ski. Just self-defeating, self-limiting and not even necessary.
Somehow for decades we managed without these Valley monsters. And regular cams such as BD’s #6 goes out to 7.68”...that means your knee has been in there and you should usually be hugely in control. I can only think of a few Valley climbs that really would be better with even bigger hardware but which of course were free climbed without it....climbs so relentless in size or just so featured that there is nothing but really wide spots where you have to protect. So as always, you might admire the hardware, would love owning some of these beauties, you will certainly be fine without them nearly completely. I think they are specialized and probably find their true use in big wall situations.
I would also point out that placing really big cams while liebacking is not going to happen usually so mostly we are talking about jamming here. Walt S. tried to protect his 1980’s FA attempt of Lightning Crack in the Broderick-Liberty Cap valley with them and they weren’t really working for him as he fought his way up that enormous mother of an overhanging wide lieback. The things were falling out, he was screaming, it was terrible. Werner talks about this. Walt had to come back and bolt it on aid to make the eventual FA. Back in 1973 I was on that line way before cams and there was no way to get the route done without nailing it first like Walt ended doing, so big cams didn’t prove to be the secret weapon there. Giant cams are even more limited in use actually unless you use them superfluously or playfully.
I like that Ed H. stresses along with others that you can shove pro (Valley Giants or any other cam) up with you some of the time but clearly will have to be prepared to fire out sections without that modern trick when you can’t get the pro to fit anymore or you are just too far above the last pieces and most important perhaps when the climbing is just too intense. Active cams are not exactly stone jumars you know and the rock is never so simple thank heavens.
The strategy of sliding the junk up all the time can sometimes be really boring and a lame distraction as opposed to just facing reality and climbing the feature, getting on with the business and enjoyment of the situation and the day. Kind of like clipping bolts every 3-4ft. And the fact that you can end up way too far above the previous piece of protection as you fiddle your shove-piece upwards in more or significantly less effective fashion is a very important part of the discussion. You may be denying yourself really good potential placements just below you when you slide that hardware into higher parts of the feature that can’t offer that level of security---maybe problematic flares, too big, too small, weird rock etc--- and now you are way the hell out from the last good stuff factually in a worse situation than someone climbing it planfully 30-40 years ago would have been. In short you have to have a valid strategy and make it work.
There is not that much difference between a 4 foot fall and a 25-30 foot fall a lot of the time; it’s more a psychological issue than a material or safety concern. Above all, offwidths require a certain rhythm which is hard to avail oneself of if you are constantly messing with the equipment having to lose your armbar or wing all the time, breaking concentration and wastefully playing with devices that may not actually be needed if truth be told. If you are climbing mid 5.10 and harder wide cracks you should be able to run out a few feet just like you do on face, just like you do on smaller cracks. Some offwidths are so hard that you will absolutely just have to climb them directly in the older manner of specific placements rather than dynamic ones.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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Another issue with pushing a piece in front of you, is the opportunity to get fouled up in your gear. When all of that stuff (cam, rope, 'biners, long sling, knot, etc.) is in front of you, in the crack, it's often in the way. Sometimes I even find that the rope or sling or knot or whatever has gotten integrated into, or trapped below, my lower "jam," often under a knee lock, and therefore impeding upward progress. I love it when that happens.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 17, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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Hmmm... Lots to comment on here.
First off, pushing a cam in front of you isn't crack jumarring. If you're free climbing, you're not weighting the cam.
WC Tech Friends are far superior to the BD cams. BD cams tend to twist out of the crack and move around a lot, in general. WC Friends are lighter than BD (and others') cams, have stiffer springs, and the most important thing - they are wider, thus more stable.
I think the arguments "against" VG's are kind of silly. They are no different than using a Big Bro, except that VG's actually work and are tons easier to use. Not to mention, you can actually trust them as pro. Tom makes an awesome product and puts a lot of care into what he does.
And you are not finished needing gear, after you get your knee in, by any means. I've been on climbs where I cannot get my body/chest in and was damn happy to have #9 VGS for protection every 30' or so... Why should anything be my protection other than good, solid pro, unless it has to?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
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I find that as I master crack climbing, and wide crack climbing, that I am not so tangled up in the rope and anchors as I used to be. This is because I am more experienced and can deal with the lead situation a lot better than when I started out and desperately placed gear in suboptimal conditions and locations.
But that's the whole point, I think, that you are learning. If you don't practice, you don't learn. I can fully see how very good crack climbers don't require as much protection as those who are just starting out. And the frequency with which modern climbers in the Valley practice offwidth is pretty low, they are far from expert in the technique.
This is, in part, due to the plethora of high qualities climbs in the Valley that are not crack climbs, a climber can avoid the unpleasant business of learning a specialized technique, offwidth, and still do some very challenging stuff. But back in time to the 60s and early 70s, it was not so specialized as the climbs being done at the time had offwidth on them, so opportunities to practice were greater, and people were better at it.
Modern gear, at least, allows the relative novice the ability to go and learn on their own, in the event that they don't know anyone that is expert in OW. Eventually one reaches the point where some of the modern conveniences are just that.
As Peter says, a lot of unlearning has to be done, too, like not taking too much gear as it can clearly reduce your likelihood of a successful lead to take doubles in every size through the VG#16. Reducing your rack requires you to use what you have, makes you more observant of protection possibilities and probably does require you to tough it out through some sections of the lead.
I'm still learning to do this stuff after years of avoiding it... what I've found is that a lot of the climbs I'd like to do will be a lot more doable if I can master the technique, at least at the 5.10 level. And I'm finding now that confronting difficult sections of climbs I'd climbed in the past are absolutely straight forward with the practice I've put into learning. This happened a few weekends ago when we did a lap on toprope of Reed's Direct, the last bit of that crack was relatively trivial, I remember it being horrendous years ago, the dreaded "OW" section that kicks you one more time. Not so much an issue now.
All the gear has a place. But courage is still best found in the heart, not in the rucksack.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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Oh no, not another "You didn't do it in my style" chest pounding thread.
VG's ROCK!! Who else here could go & whip up cams in their garage? Maybe of few of you(weirdos), but you didn't. Tom DID! Some Koreans(?) made some monsters and almost bagged some FA's. This should be the Tom & Valley Giant Appreciation Thread!!!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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You're missing the point, and some very good advice, if you read the preceeding posts as chest beating displays...
...thinking about what was said will actually make you better faster, not that there is a rush, or anything.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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Wedgee, breathe for christ’s sake. We all think VG’s are great and that Tom is very cool also!
It’s more about, do most climbers need such really wide hardware; should the original poster (AllezAllez510) as he gets into offwidth and is working his way through his tick list, now go out and buy VG’s just in order to do his training list of starter OW.
And I couldn’t agree more with Nefarius. Why place anything crummy unless you have to. And do place stuff whenever you feel you want it.
Just don’t let the activity become most of what you are doing.
I guess my meta-point is, with offwidth climbing a protection strategy is crucial; they can’t just be attacked---I have seen this approach a lot and would suggest instead always having a deeper idea of how the climb is going to play out in detail if in fact you want to succeed.
Using a slider (just as you would a jumar on a toprope soloing something from a fixed line) is clever and effective but could be seductive to some who don’t have a true and fast grip on what’s coming up and maybe aren’t seeing troublesome fluctuations. Ed and I are just trying to underline the fact that sliding hardware is great but it still requires just as much attention to detail as everything else you are trying to get done and that it has a couple serious perils we all watch out for. Newbies might want to really take these points to heart.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 17, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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"Just don’t let the activity become most of what you are doing."
Definitely. Like all of what you said in that last post, Peter.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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"I find that as I master crack climbing, and wide crack climbing, that I am not so tangled up in the rope and anchors as I used to be. This is because I am more experienced and can deal with the lead situation a lot better than when I started out and desperately placed gear in suboptimal conditions and locations."
What'd you call me, Ed?!?!?
Seriously though, when I'm pushing a piece above me, all of that aforementioned stuff tends to be in the crack in front of me, and therefore often in my way (all mastery and desperation aside).
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
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I didn't call you anything, I'm just talking about myself...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 17, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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If you are going to push... get a WideFetish Pusher:
Besides that..... sometimes I push and sometimes I don't. Usually don't. When I do push, it is most often in long continuous wide things that are sorta easy. That may sound counter intuitive, but, if it is easy, I have time to push and run it way out. If it is hard, I'm either in no position to push, or will pro once I get past the hard part.
Oh... and if done right, pushing is not a clusterfuk. Rope on the outside of the crack, Pusher on the inside. Push high.... do three moves..... pull piece when at your waist and push high.... do three moves....... repeat. There is really nothing for it to get tangled on.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 19, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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Tom, that's awesome. Ever fallen on the #16? Cam lobes look similar to Wild Country (or, dare I say it...Trango cams?).
My OW style doesn't include falling . . . I crack-jumar everything. The VG16 is for aid only, but I made that aluminum VG16 for Gavin with the idea that it could hold a fall. How big a fall? I like to explain that crack pro strength follows a bell curve, with the strongest pieces in the middle, with tiny wires and big cams at either end. The biggest issue with that aluminum VG16 was balancing the spring tension to keep it secure, but not so difficult to pull the trigger bar.
The spoked design of the WC and Trango cams is obvious, when working from a design concept of having a rim at the rock, a hub at the axle, and some way to connect the two. There is probably some sort of calculus of variations way to optimize the lobes, but my HP 15c calculator is over twenty years old, and I don't want to push the buttons so hard it blows a fuse.
EDIT: Here is the lightweight Holy Grail of monster pusher pieces. This thing has magnesium lobes, a hollow stainless steel tube axle, thinner and lighter brass cable fittings, and RP-size cable (3/32", half the usual 3/16" VG cable) that has been silver soldered along its entire length to provide stiffness against the trigger pull. It weighs about the same as an older BD #5 (what they call the #6 now). It's a one-off MVG12, and spans from a bit less than the WC6/BD6 to 12 inches.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Feb 19, 2009 - 01:48am PT
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One tip that makes pushing/perpetual toprope work better:
Clip the piece to a daisy chain or FISH™ Pusher that is hitched to your harness, and DON'T clip the rope to it until you plan to climb past it/stop pushing it.
It's a PITA and extra clusterfunk with the rope running up to the piece and back down to your harness...you've got twice the stands to deal with and the drag/weight of the rope when pushing otherwise.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:12am PT
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I concur with Elcapinyoazz: use a strong (double?) daisy, and let the lead rope run down, out of the way.
If you're crack-jugging, I've found that duct-taping your aiders to your shoes is not only completely wall ghetto, it makes sense. I figured that one out partway up the ninth pitch of PTPP's and my ascent of Excalibur, which from the ground, looked like a circus.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:23am PT
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A tool with it's place, no doubt. I haven't been to that place yet, but I'm relatively new at this.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 19, 2009 - 04:22am PT
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A man can be in his strongest place, la querencia, and not be affected by ridicule.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:26am PT
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"I concur with Elcapinyoazz: use a strong (double?) daisy, and let the lead rope run down, out of the way."
You mean some people clip the ROPE into the sliding "top-rope" piece!!!???
Wow. That never even occurred to me. Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
Not only would that create a huge fustercluck, it also doubles the force on the piece should you decide to fall.
I don't use a daisy, just a double-shoulder-length runner. But Fish's "Walk-the-dog" leash looks like just the ticket.
Brutus
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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I think a lot of people do this (push a rope-clipped piece above), actually. And, if you think about all of the images of people in a wide crack, reaching/pushing a cam up above them, with the rope clearly going through it, you'll probably know why. I'd say that most people do it, actually. They just don't know...
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scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
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Feb 19, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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What do you mean by this, Nefarius?
Do you mean that most people have followed the example of the
pictures they've seen?
I've reset some pieces but never slid them very far. Not a brag, I just haven't done all that much, really.
I don't know if I would have thought about it well enough to
realize what a difference there would be.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
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I think it plays a part in it, for sure. There are not a lot of people out there climbing OW and a lot of people are hitting the net for ideas on technique, etc. If you see pics of people doing this, and then read about people pushing a piece ahead of them, it only seems natural. I don't think in all of the reading I've done about OW climbing that I've ever read anything about NOT clipping the rope into pusher piece.
edit: matter of fact, I've often heard people talk about/refer to things like having a top-rope when you're pushing your piece, etc.
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scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
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OK, thanks.
I don't think I've read anything about pushing cams anywhere
other than this thread. Maybe I just didn't notice.
I've heard some talk but not paid enough attention.
I know Brutus and the Nurse refer to it as the movable toprope
or something like that, but clearly Brutus doesn't actually
clip the rope in.
Well, it's nice to learn the lesson before paying the price.
sm
EDIT
Well, if it's there I must have read it. Brainfarts or sump'n
WTF EDIT: I'm so much worse off than I thought...
It's the lowered expectations...I think I'm mentally competent
because I can remember the right answere when my brother asks
me what day it is...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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hahaha I posted in that thread too, Russ. Apparently I forgot about the discussion. Looks like scuffy is guilty too!
to be clear - I wasn't advocating, nor saying I do either technique. I was just saying that I think a lot of people push cams ahead of them and think that they have the rope clipped in as they do so.
I think I may have pushed one of my cams a bit on Pratt's. I was short on gear and trying to make it last as long as I could.
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scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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"I never said that. I know I never did, because it's not the
kind of thing I would ever say."
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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hahaha! you poor senile bastards!
Yeah, I recall the rope clipped in push thing being used and have seen it in pics. I've done it in a pinch,and it is kinda sucky.... and strenuous. With the cam on a Pusher™™, it is pretty effortless if the crack is continuous in size.
Not sure where the idea came from... maybe a hold over from wall climbing since there are daisy chains and stuff already in play. Using the daisy chains instead of the rope comes up all the time on walls, like for hooking etc. Maybe?
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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That's a good looking cam that Tom posted.
I've never owned a cam larger than the old Camalot 4.5, but then again I've never gone out looking for trouble (wide cracks) either.
Maybe I might invest in a big cam before I get laid off. What is the cost of those cams bigger than the 4.5?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
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"hahaha! you poor senile bastards!"
It's all a blur after a couple of days, lately! hahaha
So, Russ... Can I swing by, with some beers, and purchase a Pusher™ in a couple of weeks, when I am in Josh?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:24pm PT
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Nope...... but I'll give you one. Keep me posted on when you are down this way. Maybe even sneak in some Wide
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:31pm PT
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I've always clipped the rope through the 'pusher' piece...
it seemed like on some routes in the creek 'big baby', 'big guy', and 'monster truck' you can just shove away.
with the rope getting snagged on my knee, i eliminated it by clipping in short, no runner, and keep the rope in the crack away from me. putting the cams slightly further back.....
wouldn't falling onto a runner to the 'pusher' piece potentially shock load it?
on a side note: i was pushing cams, left one started pushing the next (crux time), fell and the lower cam fell out, since the lobe got caught on the trigger wire.
make sure those pieces are bomber, when you space em' 30 feet apart!!!
cheers,
patrick
edit: russ i wanna try one of those runners!!!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Suhweeeet, Russ! I'll keep ya posted and I'll bring beers anyway!!! Probably a couple of weekends away, due to work stuff.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Randy, if you want to go make an attempt on a dick-wrenching megaclassic hard OW in Josh, let me know. I'm trying to project the thing and need any willing partner(s).
I've got any Fri-Sun free. Bring some old 4.5 camalots or new purples and get ready to get inverted.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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I'm down for that! Shoot me an email and let's figure something out!
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 19, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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I push. And I clip the rope through the piece. But keep it on a tether, usually a 24" or 36" runner, so I don't have to deal with the weight of the rope with each "push." I use a 36" if I'm planning on it, otherwise, whatever I have on hand. The rope doesn't go up to the piece and back down; it's basically just hanging down from my harness, but clipped through the runner from the top piece, and I always make sure to keep a little slack in the runner. It's no more of a cluster than daisying to the piece, and 1) it's ready to go if I want to just move past it, and 2) the rope is there to take some of the shock if I happen to fall (not that that would happen).
As far as how "Rob Halford" pushing cams is, I dunno. It can be pretty exciting when you're way above your last piece, feeling kinda shaky, and you grab that trigger for the next move. All the "security" of the top-rope is instantly replaced by an entirely different sort of feeling .
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 19, 2009 - 06:11pm PT
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It's no more of a cluster than daisying to the piece,
Actually it is. I put the knot of the rope on my hip on the outside of the crack, and the Pusher™ is on the other hip, inside the crack.
If it is to the rope, I'd be continuously pulling the lead rope and attachment across my body and into the crack while pushing.
diagram to follow:
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 19, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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Yeah alright. I can see that. Makes sense. Maybe I need me one of them fancy WF Pushers™ I've been hearing about, and I suppose I need to swami up my game, too.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 19, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
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here is the idea:
Note the slim waist profile with this set up. Even stuff like legloop buckles are a major pisser for me. I'm not tiny and getting into cracks is already a PITA at the best of times. Swami and maybe a legloop set up with no buckles. No belay loop.... I long knot it too.... where you tie a figure 8 about 18" from your actual waist as the tie in. Damn pesky knots! Keep 'em well away from the action.
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
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sweet drawing russ!!!!!
never tried the swammi.....may have to giver a go soon!!!
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scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
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Crushed velvet pants, or is that just stubble?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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"Crushed velvet pants, or is that just stubble? "
hahahaha Well, it *is* Russ, after all... So, probably both.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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Crushed, just for you Scuff ;)
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scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
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To get an idea of just how TOAST the poor guy is...
Is that right side in, or left?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:24pm PT
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in my mind it was left side in.... but damn... for an art major.... I never really "had it"
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scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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Well, if it's left side in, which it looks like, he's not
toast, he's a drama queen.
If it's right side in, he really is toast. At least.
I could never draw anything half that good.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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Chill'en. The Scuff.
Look what you have been up to since last We peeked in!
Let me say this, as one of the original dragons of this stuff. These points have appeared before here.
advice from El Canoso:
If you are in fact trying to climb an offwidth beyond 5.10b or so, you better shed that effing harness---it's really lame, use a bunch of tubing instead, on your waist only---don't worry pilgrim, you will survive; we sure as hell did. The tie-in knot has to be on your side rather than above your crotch/below your navel/ centered on your wide spot; you will have to decide which side. I usually went for the outside but that is not always the way. And you simply can't have tons of garbage on board. There it is. Evaluate whether you even should have a trailing line. NEVER enter a hard wide crack with all things great and small. (separately, grin)
I have said this before. Leave the crap behind; have a valid and cogent plan; climb the thing with your entire heart in stiff shoes, stay as slim as you possibly can. Don't even wear a belt on the special ones. NO BULK. Stay relaxed, don't flex up and make like a wine barrel. Be happy with tiny one-inch moves. Make sure your feet are excellent---you always have excellent feet if you think about them and don't get all "upper body oriented" and fly right out of there. Quit thinking you need pro every effing 10 feet; you will live. Love that thing.
hugs p.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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Wow you all are giving such good tips I almost want to get on some OW. To show my current state of ignorance, I am one of the poor fools who clipped the rope into a cam placed overhead and would just give it shove up or replace as needed. To my slight credit, it was always clear that falling at the wrong time would have been more than slightly "interesting."
Keep the tips coming--I like the mental ones such as PH posted, although I'm not sure they will help as much on the rock as they do when I visualize myself moving up nice and smoothly from the comfort of my living room.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Feb 20, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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PtPP,
I didn't know we made a #12 BigBro. Can you send me a picture of one? What's the expansion range? The #5 'Bro, the biggest one I think we make, goes to 18". The #12 must got to four or five feet! Can't imagine why you'd want to protect a 5-foot crack but can't wait to see it.
Mal
;-)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 20, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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It must be a cave rigging tool or something..... [sheesh]
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MH2
climber
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Feb 20, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
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just passing by with a little aside for young scuffy, my b
from Shiprock Climbing History
The first time I ever saw a climbing magazine
Was that the year Hassan farted?
Token thread nod: I don't want to get into anything involving neoprene head "protection."
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scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
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Feb 20, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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I actually had never heard of rock climbing until I was 18 or
so.
I was going to Sierra Designs to buy a sleeping bag because I
wanted to go backpacking in the Sierra. I knew I had to be
better equipped than for just sleeping outside at 4000ft in the
summertime (general Yosemite latitude).
Getting away from the cabin base seemed like a big deal at the
time.
After I'd spent some time on solo trips in the granite country
I realized that I'd better have somebody show me how not to
kill myself.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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where's the Reaper in that cartoon, I keep hearing about "talking to the Reaper"
good discussion on an refining the technique.
And it seems that the idea of having "just enough" to do the pitch, in terms of equipment, is a direction we're moving in...
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Feb 20, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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Mal - a picture of the elusive HUGE BRO™
I don't recall what size Big Bro this was, but you definitely got rid of it as soon as possible, and you never pushed it ahead of you...
Here ya go Ed - I whacked that reaper in there for ya...
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Feb 20, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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Reaper? I keep hearing Darth Vader inside. Breathing heavily. "Who's your daddy?"
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Gary Carpenter
climber
SF Bay Area
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Feb 20, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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Well....I guess I'm a little embarrassed that I hadn't figgered this out by myself!!
The good news is that with Peter, Russ and Brutus' tips I'll be able to move directly from 5.6ow to 5.7+!!
Thanks
Gary
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scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
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Feb 20, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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Well, Gary, I was just doing some extended research in the
TradGirl/rec.climbing archives,
and it seems that engineers naturally gravitate toward the
more complex devices and systems.
Are you sure you want to skip over 5.7-?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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If you want to upgrade your big WC or BD cams so they can be more easily pushed up a crack, change out the flexible trigger wires with solid spring wire. The stiffness of the spring wire will keep the head of the cam stable, so it stays symmetrical in the crack, and can't easily turn sideways.
You can find the wire at a hobby shop, as music wire (which will get surface rust, but not rot out very quickly), or order stainless steel spring wire from [url="http://www.mcmaster.com" target="new"]McMaster.com[/url].
The VG trigger wires are 0.049" SS spring wire, same as for the VG9 springs. This size wire will fit the WC and BD lobes and trigger bars. I've sometimes had to bend an L-shape in the bottom of the trigger wire when upgrading cams this way.
Here is how the VG trigger wires accommodate flared placements, by sliding through the trigger bar. A similar configuration is what you'd want with your WC and BD cams.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 20, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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Hey! Isn't that my old red cam? From our Tour Of Booty down a pitch of Aurora, when climbing [dropping stuff off of] Scorched Earth? I'm a little short in cams that size, actually...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 11:19pm PT
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Pete, you called it exactly. And, I still have the Mammut 11mm Flex rope that received a core shot from the penji-scrape from that World Class Tour of Booty (a whole trad rack, in one shot). But, whadda hey? Wall Climbing is hard on gear and ropes.
And, you know how lazy I am regarding repairing trigger wires. I have a homemade ghetto compression tool (linesman pliers, with a groove I Dremel-Tooled into the cutting edges), and fittings for attaching solid wire to cable, but the solid wire is easier, and somehow seems esthetically better.
You can find the proper and tiny stainless steel cable & fittings at fishing tackle shops near the ocean, because that is what you want when stalking Monsters of the Deep, like marlin and Jaws.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 21, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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I don't trust that HugeBro; I don't trust anybody that doesn't cast a shadow.
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Feb 23, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
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borrowed from rc
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 23, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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Oh my!!
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Feb 23, 2009 - 06:12pm PT
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borrowed the other one too
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 23, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
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"Not only would that create a huge fustercluck, it also doubles the force on the piece should you decide to fall."
Isn't a daisy chain static and a climbing rope dynamic? A static fall onto one of those cams could be brutal. I'm a wide crack noob but I've seen a lot of discussions online about how falling onto a daisy chain from a few feet can put huge forces on the gear.
Maybe use a dynamic cow-tail, or whatever, to make the pushing up of gear a little easier on the body?
of course the one time I was "in" a crack, I think i would have fallen white slowly as my skin wore off. Maybe the friction decreases the impact.
Dave
P.S. Sorry to reply to a post a few pages back but it stuck in my mind and I didn't immediately see the issue addressed in a quick scan of the remaining posts.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 23, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
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Nothing is really static, and mostly you ooze out of the wide. Don't believe the hype about the sky falling and all that. If you push correctly, the piece will almost always be above you you will have minimal slack between you and the piece. I know that online they will say that a 4inch fall onto a daisy chain will pull all the bolts in the universe, rupture your spleen, and kill all your siblings. Not true.
Besides, which would you sooner have:
a 120foot airballer into a body sized slot, or a 3 foot sliding oozing fall onto your swami belt? I'll take the latter, even if the daisy was made from cable and girth hitched around my nutsack.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Feb 23, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
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Russ, perhaps another one of your sketches to illustrate this?? On 2nd thought....
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 24, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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hmmmm.... I'll see if I can get motivated. I see the "art" in my mind.... getting it on paper is the hard part.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:57am PT
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Regarding the discussion of forces on the pushed piece:
1. Any TRing of the rope through the piece will DOUBLE the load on the cam. So unless you think the dynamic amplification is greater than 2x your falling force, that should not be an issue. This is only likely to happen with falls approaching factor 2 falls, which will not happen if the piece is even with or above you.
2. If you are still worried about about the shock, a compromise could be to just tie off the rope to the cam tether/draw with a clove hitch. This will only load the cam with the weight of your fall (rather than twice that from the TR setup) on the climbing rope (and not the daisy), and if you want to continue on beyond the piece, all you have to do is unclip one of the clove hitch turns. Of course this system could be a bit of a clusterf#ck.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jan 27, 2011 - 03:27am PT
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Russ-
Where is the diagram, it's been 2 LONG years.
On the dog leash, straight wide crack pimpin
Ya dig?
Mucci
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 27, 2011 - 09:17am PT
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Sigh
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Jan 27, 2011 - 09:53am PT
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Anyone had the cam stops on the VG9 Come out? I have had mine for two years and recently the small cylinders that act as cam stops have been pushing through. for now I have them ducttaped...
-JEsse
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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Jul 10, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
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Any VGs out there collecting dust, looking for a new home? I can lay drystack masonry or, I guess, pay cash for 'em.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 11, 2014 - 01:50am PT
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I bought a pair of custom 4.5"s and a 6" from Dick Cilley in the Josh Parking Lot, and they've always worked fine for me.
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JustinS
Trad climber
Ocedanside, California
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Jun 18, 2015 - 10:44am PT
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Any chance someone's looking to sell their VG's?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jun 18, 2015 - 11:30am PT
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Russ- we'd still like to see that diagram! ;)
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JustinS
Trad climber
Ocedanside, California
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Jun 18, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
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I had someone hit me up about a VG12 if my replies are not getting to you post back on here. Really interested in getting that!! Thanks
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thebravecowboy
climber
liberated libertine
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Jun 18, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
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Bidding war?
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JustinS
Trad climber
Ocedanside, California
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Jun 18, 2015 - 08:02pm PT
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You would win I have a two year old, so I'm climbing on a budget.
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thebravecowboy
climber
liberated libertine
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Jun 18, 2015 - 08:04pm PT
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Kinda teasing you: I am a graduate student with a monthly income amounting to one small hill of beans, a nice life, and then there is also the income of spent webbing, ratty 'biners, etc.
EDIT: VG12 Timeshare?
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JustinS
Trad climber
Ocedanside, California
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Jun 18, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
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If you're a grad student willing to pool his beans together for a decent meal living in SoCal the time share is a possibility if he gets a hold of me again.
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thebravecowboy
climber
liberated libertine
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Jun 18, 2015 - 08:43pm PT
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Not even kidding, I could actually really be into this. I mean I might need this thing like once a year. And I will be down your way in the next six months or so.
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JustinS
Trad climber
Ocedanside, California
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Jun 18, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
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Haha well if he gets a hold of me and is actually willing to part with a work of art I would love to help a fellow climber with his off width dreams. And that VG16 is a true work of art I'd like to see the only actual custom order one they made actually placed!
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Jun 18, 2015 - 11:12pm PT
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