Are we hiring the wrong teachers -or paying them too little?

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rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 12, 2009 - 01:12am PT
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29143460/?gt1=43001
AllezAllez510

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:18am PT
Or is this an isolated case of....fill in the blank. Remember not all investment bankers are greedy crooked scumbags either.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:21am PT
Private Schools Rock !!
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:24am PT
Some private school rock, hard! But do note that like home schooling, they are not held to the same standards as public schools!


Russ Walling

Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:25am PT
Since when did public schools have standards?
Chaz

Trad climber
Boss Angeles
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:41am PT
Kids gotta wanna learn.

Teachers need the authority to 86 the kids what don't.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:42am PT
AA5.10 "not all investment bankers are...."

Really, I dunno, think mayhap they are....jess sayin'.
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:45am PT
Pay the teachers more......and teachers are just like anyone else;...human....How about dinner and a movie for sex;......happens in every town in America on a Friday night....
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:46am PT
Chaz, "Kids gotta want to learn."

Well, I got mostly A's with a few B's but it wasn't cause I was a dedicated little kid. I knew this kiddo betta not come home with bad grades or poor conduct marks....or else.

My parents only spanked me twice in my life....not about grades either. But I respected their ...... and I knew I betta not let them down. Jess Sayin' : D

PS, Teachers should not have to "86" kids. Parents need to do their job.
Chaz

Trad climber
Boss Angeles
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:47am PT
Lynne,

I wanted to learn AND I got 86'd.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:49am PT
Chaz, you must email me. How could this happen ? Or better, put it here on the ST so we can all figure out how these kinds of things happen. Feel for yo Bro ! Lynne
Russ Walling

Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:50am PT
Gordo..... seriously.... you Cali teachers are VASTLY overpaid.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:51am PT
To the thread title; something of both, but exclusively.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 12, 2009 - 02:03am PT
Before I read the link, I deluded myself into thinking that MSNBC had seen the light. My daughter is currently enrolled in the credential program at Fresno State. Her textbook had, early on, a graph of teachers' salaries relative to those of doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. The point was not so much that teachers are underpaid, as it was that one should not go into teaching for the money. Fair enough.

I've often felt, though, that we should pay teachers much more (say $100,000 a year) and quit trying to pare class sizes down so small. I think you may get a different type of person interested in teaching, namely ones for whom the opportunity cost becomes less.

My daughter has her undergraduate degree in math. She had much more lucrative offers than teaching. The same isn't necessarily true, though, for an English or history major. If you paid teachers a premium, you might end up raising the prestige of the profession enough that parents might even stop thinking that their kids are right and the teacher is wrong (yes, I know I'm dreaming).

Of course, this only works if new and better teachers can oust less competent ones, so I give it about as much chance as I have a freeing the Nose but, hey, it's worth a try.

John
Delhi Dog

Trad climber
Good Question...
Feb 12, 2009 - 02:30am PT
...and the merry-go-round continues...

"Since when did public schools have standards? "

Uh, for awhile now...doesn't mean though that they are quality nor being applied.

Truth is many school both public and private suck, but the majority continue to have an extremely difficult job and do the best they can given the circumstances.

Russ you got kids?

What is the parents'job and responsibilities?
What are the school's job and responsibilities?
What is an individual's job and responsibilities?
What is society's job and responsibilities?

When schools/teachers/administrations are expected to do more than their jobs and then fail in some way because of a list of variables, so often the "schools'" are blamed.

How about spreading that responsibility around?

It's so easy to whine and complain (not saying your whining Russ) as so many people do, but we all have responsibilities towards educating our youngster. To "blame" it on the schools without recognizing all the variables I think is a major disservice to everyone.

Just saying...

Teachers are people too. So this lady #ucked up. Interesting that the admin. mentions she had not had any disciplne issues and was a "very good teacher".
Maybe she was, maybe the admin. dude sucks at his job.
Maybe she just likes having guys pay her for sex...

We've had many threads about the state of our schools...
wonder if they (schools) are on the list of "change" that is "coming."

Cheers,
DD

edit:
You get what you pay for- usually (though in the case of some of these exec. in the banking/loan buisness you have to wonder...

I have usually found in my capacity as a teacher that if everyone is involved and doing their job (and actually caring) than great things happen.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Feb 12, 2009 - 02:38am PT
An education is a privilege.

Aside: Why do some of you peeps attack russ and others? I personally love his/their wit and humor on the taco. If you go for the jugular yo gonna kill the fun posters on the ST.

Say, go after me if you need a target. It will be a new form of entertainment and I can focus less on trying to cope on my scary and insane life. Lynnie
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Feb 12, 2009 - 02:57am PT
I have a high school teaching credential. When I did 7 months of student teaching in Oakhurst, I was astounded at the quality of people teaching kids. Truly fine people who weren't in it for the money.

It would be great if teachers were paid more but the unwelcome side effect would be that people WOULD start doing it for the money.

Any school that has the prestige and resources to skip the cream of the crop students is going to do great.

The larger problem is our culture. We don't value education and kids think that they don't need or benefit from learning (unless their parents are special and clue them in somehow)

It's a culture problem. We're decadent and will suffer for it.

There is hope though. I know some younger generation kids that sure shine. Just wish there were more of them

PEace

Karl
Russ Walling

Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
Feb 12, 2009 - 03:44am PT
So DD:
If we get what we pay for, shouldn't we have the best schools in the USA here in California? And the best teachers?
California leads the Nation in teacher salaries, yet is 34th ( and as low as 46th on some charts for reading and math) out of all States in SAT scores. Obviously, we are not getting what we are paying for.
Delhi Dog

Trad climber
Good Question...
Feb 12, 2009 - 04:46am PT
"If we get what we pay for, shouldn't we have the best schools in the USA here in California? And the best teachers?

California leads the Nation in teacher salaries, yet is 34th (on some charts) out of all States in SAT scores. Obviously, we are not getting what we are paying for."

Good questions Russ.
On the surface you'd think so wouldn't you.

I remember moving to CA in '77 after I graduated because it had cheaper ed. and was quality...

I do not pretend to know all the answers, but I think the following are contributors...

The problem about cost is fairly subjective IMHO (regarding salaries). And, "pay" in my use does not ONLY include salaries-so if I was not clear I'm sorry... but...

Money is a funny thing...
What state has the highest cost of living (I don't know but I'll bet CA is right up there).
What state has the largest Pop. (per-cap. I don't know but I'll bet CA is up there).
Which state has the highest ESL pop. my guess...CA

I think Karl is on to something when he says our priorities just aren't in the right place (paraphrasing).

Salaries are not the only factor though. More money does not solve the problem, just as a fine rack doesn't make the climber.

If all else were equal, then maybe we could narrow it down to that, but it isn't.

When you pay for a professional to do a job which they are trained for, then create barriers which keep them from doing the job they are trained for, success is going to be limited.
I really don't want to get into all the NCLB (no child left behind) issues, but to make a point that is one variable, along with the couple I mention above.

And, you can't make someone learn, that has to come from within. Learning needs to be valued by the individual and society as a whole. The gang bangers and others that have to be in the same classroom with them have a real challenge in this regard (for an example),as does those students' teacher- no matter what they are paid.

One final thought, I think many many teachers would rather have students with loving, nurturing, caring parents and belong to communities that are supportive and recognize the intrinsic value of children, have less students to teach on a daily basis, are thought of and treated as professional, and valued as such than to have a higher pay check...

Cheers,
DD


mcreel

climber
Barcelona, Spain
Feb 12, 2009 - 04:51am PT
I'd say both - too little pay, and you don't attract people who might be good teachers but who also care about money. While there are no doubt a lot of really good teachers already, who just happen not to care too much about low pay, if the pay were higher, the marginally qualified teachers would find it harder to keep their jobs.

Pay the university professors less, and pay the grade school teachers more. The university profs. have a relatively small effect on their students' learning potential. Probably the junior high school teachers need extra pay too, for hazardous duty.
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Feb 12, 2009 - 09:48am PT
considering mom and dad usually both work now, and the teacher and the television are really the only two consistent influences on the children while mom and dad are really just too busy/tired/whatever to even bother paying attention to little jimmy and kimmy - we are probably not paying them half of what we should be...

think about it - the average telemarketer makes as much as the person *teaching your child*...don't you think we should pay teachers top dollar, to attract the best and brightest to the calling ? this is far, far more important than paying those clowns in marketing...
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Feb 12, 2009 - 09:49am PT
You guys flap all you want to about education;.....a subject where everyone is an expert......except the teachers. I don't tell my doctor how to practice medicine, my car mechanic how to fix my car, my dentist how to fix a tooth, .....but everyone tells the teacher how to teach. If you REALLY want to know about education and teaching.....TRY asking a teacher......they MIGHT know alittle bit about the subject.........but naaah;..probably not;.....for they are just over-paid knuckleheads who can't find a job doing anything else and besides;...they SUCK at their jobs anyways;.....look at our test scores and drop out rate.....(damn teachers....).......gotta go........today we have our Valentine's party in my kindergarten class.........it should be a blast! If teachers can't do their job......shit can them;....just like out in the REAL world......(If it were only that simple........)..........thanks for all the great suggestions,...but the bottom line is.........flap on...gotta run...I have important work to do......I will respectfullly ignore your finger pointing, blaming, trash talking, and "great" advice......(See;...teachers are good at SOMETHING.....).....After about 30 years of teaching, I still find alot of it interesting, fun, enjoyable, and rewarding.....it's crazy at times...but them I just go climbing..........Teachers have been societies whipping boy ever since the firt day a kid lifted a pencil...and it will always be that way;....parents, kids, politicians and such don't want to take the blame......any day is kick a teacher day.....but don't forget;....we have calloused butts from decades of boots......
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 12, 2009 - 10:04am PT
obviously Todd, you're only in it for the money.
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Feb 12, 2009 - 10:32am PT
OK....ready to have the great educational questions answered?......just ask the smartest people you know,....How did you get so smart;........they will SURELY be able to give you the answer everyone is looking for......For me, ...I know about 5 people who really are experts in all subjects.....the great thinking minds of our era;....they would be Chongo Chuck, Tucker Tech, Bill Russel, Russ Walling, and Dean Fidelman.........(Any subject brought up, they seem to know it all......)......ask them....
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Feb 12, 2009 - 10:36am PT
Three Cheers for TG! Anyone who has survived thirty years in the under-appreciated and underpaid trenches of education has my unabashed respect. They've earned it!

My wife is over twenty years in and I will tell you it is a calling not a killing.
Teaching is the most critical job of all and teachers get a raw deal at almost every turn. As an electrician I give a large price discount to teachers. I may be the only one who does but it is my small way of paying back the un-payable debt.
The value that teachers at all levels and in all things bring to our society should never be flippantly ignored or simply expected.

There are lots of problems in public education but teacher over pay or under-qualification are nowhere the list.



By the way you want to make an effective change in student behavior and attention in schools and reduce the obscene overmedicating of school children at the same time. Eliminate the institutional florescent lighting. There is scads of evidence about the negative effects of florescent lights on the human psyche.
TradIsGood

Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
Feb 12, 2009 - 10:37am PT
Measuring teacher performance is exceedingly difficult.

Most stupidly assume that how well kids test is somehow related to the quality of teachers. By the time kids hit schools, they already have for the most part had both their intellectual potential and their motivations set. This has been well known for several decades now.

Case in point:
Rajmit is Dean's list in College (just missed Provost's) but had roughly B average in a public HS. He plans to transfer because the college is too easy. His school sent well over 90% of the kids to college. Average Board scores were not that impressive compared to neighboring schools which were more "uniformly white and asian", because it had a significant population of "under-achievers", many of whom also took the college boards."

Maybe we could try to figure out why some of his "peers" were taking sophomore courses at Princeton University when they were HS juniors. I don't think it had anything to do with the teachers they had, except to the extent that maybe they got out of the kids' way.
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Feb 12, 2009 - 10:49am PT
I want to be a volunteer aide in Todd's class the days Russ substitutes. I think he'd be really good at it.

think of the innovative spelling words!
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Feb 12, 2009 - 10:58am PT
Here's what the teachers say:

http://www.teachermagazine.org/tm/tb/2007/04/23/2174.html
Kupandamingi

Trad climber
Berkeley
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:07am PT
I sympathesize with poorly paid teachers, but some around here (Marin public schools in particular) pull in pretty good money (upwards of $80k or so for a seasoned, but not salty friend of mine). Also driving down shattuck in Berkeley yesterday I did find it rather odd to have teachers picketing on the street for an improved compensation package - particularly in light of the fact that California is near bankrupt and many private sector folks are losing their jobs. Moreover, teachers pensions (as I understand it at least) are largely protected (e.g. guaranteed) and, as such, haven't been reduced by 40% as with most private sector folks. Good people do teach - and not for the money as their are clearly more lucrative career choices out there. However - as with any moderate paying public sector gig some end up there as a default career as a result of not wanting to compete in more competitive fields. The same is true of the non-profit sector (and I reason I left it for international work years ago) - some good people, but also many who were bottom of the barrel. Those who teach out of passion are far more patient than me and deserve our praise and respect
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:19am PT
This just happened in my district yesterday.
http://lodinews.com/articles/2009/02/11/update/teacher.web.2.22.txt

It may help with the 10% to 20% cuts we are going to have next year. With about 4000 district employees this will hurt our local economy. Four hundred plus staff will lose thier jobs next year.

365 teachers
20 from the psychologist, counselor, program specialist unit
14.5 from administration

This does not include classified staff.
Delhi Dog

Trad climber
Good Question...
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:22am PT
"I am in favor of programs that measure student performance and reward teachers/schools that improve base scores..."

Problem with that Fatty is that the priority becomes the test scores...
And, there is the assumption that the tests are worthy when so much is as stake.

So much more exists that is not measurable by "test scores"

"...but it all starts at home."
That is true.

Cheers,
DD
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:46am PT
Regarding CA teacher's salaries, they may be top in the nation but that's not taking into account cost of living. Even though starting teacher's pay in Indiana is around $32K, I bet you have more buying power than you do in CA making $55K?
kwit

climber
california
Feb 12, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
BOTTOM LINE: TEACHERS ARE UNDERPAID.

teaching is difficult, requires long hours inside and outside of the classroom, can never, ever be phoned-in if you want to do it well, has an incredibly difficult audience (students with differing needs, abilities, and desires, and parents with different ideas about what school should be), and requires the ability to constantly remain optimistic, positive, helpful, compassionate, and available even in an atmosphere of societal excoriation, distrust, and disinterest.
please. tell me teachers make too much, or even enough money to my face and i will punch you.

not to end on the negative, however: teaching is also brilliant, crucial, and the cornerstone of modern democracy. and can be the most beautiful experience in the world.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 12, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
OK, as a HS Physics and Earth Science teacher, I would like to say . . .

Teaching is the hardest best job you'll ever do. The personal rewards are great, the pay sucks, and you don't do it for the money and the time-off in the summer. If you do, you will soon leave the career very disappointed --- it isn't worth it. You will sleep to catch up on your energy, and the grading and lesson planning can go late into the night.

It has been said, "Those who can --- do. Those who can't --- teach." I say bullsh#t. You don't know your subject until you have to teach it to others. I teach and I do. I do research on my own time. I continue to take courses and stay abreast of the latest developments and discoveries in physics and earth science. Science isn't static we are always pushing into and gaining new knowledge. That is the purpose of pure science.

Most students are great to teach and wonderful to know. Then there are those like Russ Walling, who are a hand-full. Imagine teaching a classroom full of Russ Wallings. My God you would run out of the classroom screaming. Some do. Some teachers quite within the first 5 years, usually due to the serious behavior problems of some students (the apple doesn't fall far from the tree), lack of respect, and lack of classroom control.

As a teacher you have to wear many hats: teacher, surrogate parent, counselor, disciplinarian, custodian, etc. etc.

You might know it all and be the most gifted Phd. in your field, but if you don't have classroom control, the students will eat you alive, and then you have nothing. No teaching or learning will take place.

Like I said, teaching is the most rewarding and hardest job you will ever do.

PS --- the difference between good students and bad students is the difference in parental supervision and parental involvement, or lack there of.

Those parents who are involved in their childs' lives and teach them respect, morals, ethics, and teach them "the golden rule" make all the difference.
Russ Walling

Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
Feb 12, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
kwit writes: please. tell me teachers make too much, or even enough money to my face and i will punch you.

Tell me you are not a teacher.

At a minimum, I expect teachers to at least use adequate punctuation and above average spelling in forum posts. Todd, I'm sorry, but here is a pink slip.

Cry all you want teachers, but the more more more attitude is slowly grinding to a halt here in California. The State is broke. Obviously there are problems with the system and funding, not just here, but across the Nation. That being said, between the benefit package, the curse of tenure, the time off, and the warm fuzzies you get for growing better humans, I'm just not feeling your pain. It appears I am not alone in this opinion out in the real world.
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Feb 12, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
As previously mentioned, teachers $$ salaries in CA may be tops, but you try living on that in CA. If I didn't make good $$ (I am not a teacher), my family and I could no way in hell afford to live in Vacaville on my wife's salary. VACAVILLE aka middle of nowhere.

In addition, it is not just about how much you pay the teachers, lets not forget California is 47th (as of 2008) in spending per student. We are rapidly approaching the least amount spent per student yet we have the highest ESL student population, which as also noted above, requires additional resources in order to support.

http://www.rocklin.k12.ca.us/negotations/state_funding.pdf

As also mentioned above, PARENTS are the people who should be looking in the mirror when it comes to student test scores. My wife works her standard hours and then most often puts in another 3-4 hours at night from home. I often help her grade papers and tests in addition to volunteering at her school functions because they can't get any parents to come help. You know, stupid stuff like, Explore It! and Science Night. Her Parent Teacher Association (PTA) is comprised of almost all teachers. Why? Because none of the parents will participate.

Don't blame the teachers, blame lazy parents who couldn't give a crap about their kids education. Kids pick up their attitude and go to school and don;t even try to learn because they know there is no consequence for them.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 12, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
I teach economics at a local community college, and taught commercial law and bankruptcy classes in law school since 1985. I once calculated that each course I taught cost me about $30,000.00 in opportunity cost. That is, if I spent the time I spent preparing, teaching and grading doing legal work at my normal rate of compensation, I would make $30,000 more. I obviously don't teach for the money. I teach because I love it, because I feel satisfaction from teaching students well, and because I get lots of props from my students and administrators.

That's great, but what about those who don't have a lucrative day job? I don't think you'd get worse teachers if you made the profession more lucrative. I think, if anything, you'd get more people who always wanted to teach, but had greater monetary needs (OK -- most of those may be just wants, but you know what I mean). I rather suspect that you'd end up with a pool of better teachers as a result.

I could add my two cents worth on measuring educational outcomes, and why teachers at my level get paid more than those at the K-12 level. Two cents is probably all my opinions are worth there, because everyone has an opinion on those issues, and I'm unlikely to change anyone's mind.

I hope, though, that we would seriously consider paying teachers a lot more, and worrying less about class sizes.

John

EDIT: Teaching is NOT the hardest job I do. Try representing borrowers in trouble.
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Feb 12, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
Klimmer- as a high school ELD teacher I agree with what you say. Finally after 20 plus years I have a good income but it took years to get here.

I have also got to spend time with this wonderful family.

http://lodinews.com/articles/2009/02/07/news/5_gun_090207.txt
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Feb 12, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
I dont know about teachers pay. After reading the article though, is $50 a day for Lunch for a HS boy too much?

Parents who beat on teachers as a whole are probably just too afraid to face their own failings as parents. And if you dont have kids or you are not a teacher, then complaining about kid educational problems is like LEB being an expert on climbing....
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Feb 12, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
20+ years eh Mrtropy? Let's see, that will put me at 63 yrs. old before I start making bank! Damn, that's not good. But, I've been living on sub-$30K income for most my life, so it won't be too hard to make ends meet.

Like you, I'm doing it for the extra time to spend with the family. I'm already pretty attached to this 1 yr. old of mine, can't wait to spend summers in the mountains and show her the constellations and the ropes on the rock! Cheers.
jstan

climber
Feb 12, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
I was the only person in my family if origin who did not choose to be a lifetime teacher. So anything I say is probably best ignored.

If there was any single factor persuading me to decide as I did it came when my mother was no longer allowed to discipline students IN CLASS. If you are solely focussed on the students learning, not being able to maintain order in the classroom has to be pure frustration. The preferred method of maintaining discipline through earning the respect of the students is breached as soon as visible disrespect is permitted.

The comment that education begins in the home is so central I am beginning to think public schools should hold organizing meetings with the parent body along with one on one personal contact sessions. If a parent is found to be a poor fit with the school that parent's child might well not be admitted to the school. We can see the reason why private schools seem to offer hope. In too many cases parents, I think, consider K-12 to be an extended daycare facility. I have even seen parental complaints in the papers supporting this belief. Here perhaps we have a clue to a solution.

When, according to some agreed upon metric, a student is deemed detrimental to the learning of their classmates, they are sent home for a period of time, perhaps even with the parent being summoned immediately to pick them up. If there is no correction the student might well be expelled and transferred to a more appropriate institution of learning. Such an approach might even permit the child of a dysfunctional parent to be returned to functionality. There are dysfunctional adults out there.

Teachers are people and people generally have impressive ability to game the system. Not employed in all cases surely, but present nonetheless. Many complaints about teachers's unions in large metropolitan areas often point to this as a factor. But here I think we need to accept another fact which this country's policies deny. We need to judge each case on its merits as NO TWO ARE EVER THE SAME.

The US worships the idea that education is exactly the same in every part of this vast country. Pure self delusion. (Which by the way has permitted large flows of tax money to Washington.) Within a single child, what the child hears in class can change with their mood or that day's experience.

My father left me no choice as to whether I was to skip 10th grade. I studied on my own with my mother's help and passed the exams, thereby getting a chance to take responsibility for my education unto myself. It was an eye-opening experience. Surely the education of each of us is, ultimately, our own responsibility. If our public schools routinely made this capability available my experience suggests just by watching their peers kids would soon sense how exciting it can be to be an adult.
Moof

Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
Feb 12, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
Low teacher pay does lead to poor competition, and poor competition leads to many low quality folks teaching.

My wife is in the last parts of her teaching program. At assorted social functions amongst her class mates I have been rather horrified by the general lack of talent and the very low end backgrounds of these soon to be teachers (lots of hairnets and name tags, if you know what I mean...). Some of this is due to the setting, a state school, but it is also very clear that anyone of significant talent can much more easily, and flexibly make more money in a host of other professions. As a result you either get the minority of folks who have a true calling and teach despite the pay, a subset who are mostly smart but failed to realize the economics of the profession, or the remaining sorry lot for whom teaching is really the best they can do.

As a result of paying too little, we hire the wrong folks. The low quality of output by these wrong folks draws the ire of tax payers, helping keep the pay low. My $0.02
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 12, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
Moof,

In one full swoop you have managed to offend all teachers, including your wife who is on her way to becoming one.

Good going.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 12, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
But Jstan
You have been a teacher for much of your life.
You teach by example. Clean climbing, keeping active,
making places better than they were before you arrived.
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Feb 12, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
Uhhhmmm, sorry Klimmer...I'd say Moof makes a very valid point. It's no secret that education attracts, generally, the lower academically talented/motivated crowd with the exceptions of those who really want to be a teacher and also have the intelligence. My wife teaches at the college level and can spot educ. majors in her class a mile away. Generally, they perform lower than her other students enrolled in more challenging majors.

I can speak from experience that education courses are much easier than those of other solid majors (i.e. science, business, and even the standard humanities majors), IHMO of course.

Edit: Raise the teacher certif. standards and you'll raise the quality of teachers.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 12, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
I take exception to both Moof and Dick--I'm studying to become
an elementary school teacher and working full time.
I have a 3.87 average, and many of my peers are doing as well.
I certainly wouldn't say the cirriculum is any easier--and
in my general education classes there are as many loafers as there are in society--just as there are bad teachers, there are bad cops, bad doctors and bad accountants and bankers.
You can't paint everyone with the same brush.
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Feb 12, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
I respect your opinion Steve...but I never got solid A's until I started taking education courses. One could argue I was more motivated in these courses, but if anything, they took less effort to get an "A" than lets say trig/algebra or classical world literature courses I was taking concurrently.

Now, there's also one other consideration. I took my education courses from a junior college in Wyoming. Maybe Wyoming's standards are lower than other states due to lack of competition in the state. I'll get back to you after June when I take education courses here at Ind. Univ. I may have to eat my words :)

EDIT: BTW, (non-sequitor) what's up with doing student teaching for 4 mos. for free? That's still a thorn in my side. What other profession makes you work for free? Even internships are paid positions, or were before the economy went belly up.
Jingy

Social climber
Flatland, Ca
Feb 12, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
AllezAllez - "Or is this an isolated case of....fill in the blank. Remember not all investment bankers are greedy crooked scumbags either.".......

Uhm....

yah they are!!!
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Feb 12, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
To be fair, Moof was talking about "perspective teacher's". I'd say the laws of natural selection weed out most of the people who shouldn't be teaching after the first year or two. So yes Tami, odds are you met the best of the best!
Moof

Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
Feb 12, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
Steve,

3.87 GPA's should not be the norm. Most of my wife's classmates, like you, have very high GPA's. My wife marvels at the lack of rigour, and lack of talent within the teaching staff for her program (often blatently not practicing what they teach...), There is definately grade inflation compared with what I went through to get my engineering degree, where a 3.5 GPA was only obtainable by being both damn smart AND busting your ass for 4 hard years, with 4.0's only going to those who were both gifted and sleep deprived. Very high 3.7-4.0 GPA's should be rare, and not just a way to pat the students on the head and make them think they are good people.

I don't intend to insult all teachers, but plenty are hacks. It only takes a couple really bad teachers to sour a student for years to come. I had my share of truly excellent teachers, as well as my share of horrible hacks, with a bunch in between.

As for student teaching being "free", it's actualy worse. I'm about to cut a $4.5k check JUST for student teaching credits. For the last semester my wife has ZERO university classes, but still has to pay for a full load of credits to student teach. WTF? Again, the program inflates the credits education majors get to make it look like a real reputable program. Yeah, real impressive. At the end of this glorified summer camp my wife gets a master's degree?! Sheesh.
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Feb 12, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
Not to mention after you do your free student teaching for four months, you finish in mid-April and then can't get a teaching job until the following September. It's a beautiful system...it does make you wonder why anyone in their "sane" mind would do it. I know I'm not sane...what about the others?
kwit

climber
california
Feb 12, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
russ,

i am a teacher, and if you would like me to explain the history punctuation (and capitalization) to you i would be more than happy to do so. suffice it to say for now that different discursive spheres have different standardization requirements, and i am choosing to see this as an informal sphere.

as for "punching someone in the face": consider that a figure of speech, a lexical way of illustrating and so capturing the anger and frustration i see coursing through so many of these posts, and which are certainly present in mine.

you are mistaken to see this discussion as participating in a "more more more" economy. this is not a question of *more,* it is a question of redistribution based on community, state, and national values. we don't need more, precisely. what we need is a redistribution of wealth to be determined by need, efforts to motivate and stimulate, necessity of services, and labor. in other words, we need a market that is aware of "labor value" and "use value" and considers education a viable product. call me a marxist.

and the reason you do not feel my pain is, i assume, because you have never at the end of an 80-hour work week spent teaching and preparing had to decide whether or not to pay your insurance bill or your electric bill.
Russ Walling

Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
Feb 12, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
Kwit:
I'm a victim of public schools. Could you make your point using smaller words and be a little more succinct? I'm guessing the point is carried over from your first post, and is "teachers are underpaid"? ( I'll pass on the free lesson though. )

In my opinion, they (teachers) are overpaid and overvalue themselves. I also think tenure is a curse, and is keeping your ranks swelled with non-committed and uninspiring lackeys that could probably only hold a job in academia, and nowhere else, save for behind a fry basket.

and the reason you do not feel my pain is, i assume, because you have never at the end of an 80-hour work week spent teaching and preparing had to decide whether or not to pay your insurance bill or your electric bill.

No, that is not why I don't feel your pain. I don't feel your pain Comrade because what I see is a glut of toadies riding high on the system, making a salary well in excess of their actual worth, and with more time off than just about anyone in a comparable pay scale. And if the long hours and past-due bill roulette are getting you down, perhaps you could look into getting a different job? Being poor and working 80 hours a week sounds like a drag.
kwit

climber
california
Feb 12, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
touché. i should have added, "...because i've chosen to do what i love, and see it as a large and necessary part of my commitment to social justice and equality."

and chrissakes, i am not usually such a bore. but this subject seems important enough to require earnestness.

Sancho

climber
Feb 12, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
Let's see. After 5 to 10 years, a teacher in California can make $60,000. Not great, but then again, they only work 9 months out of the year. How does that compute on an annual basis?

$60,000 / 9/12 = $80,000

Hmm, $80,000 isn't terrible, even in California.

But wait, teachers have solid gold retirement accounts. Teachers (and most other government employees) have defined benefit retirement plans. In other words, the employer pays the employee a defined amount from retirement to death, regardless of investment earnings or market returns on the amounts deposited. Teachers pay something like 8.5% of their pay to fund about half of this benefit. That doesn't even come close to funding the full amount. Let's say the state matches that 8.5%, which is a very conservative estimate. Where does that get us?

$80,000 * 1.085 = $86,800

Finally, medical and dental benefits for teachers are know to be very advantageous. I'm not sure how exactly to factor that in, but essentially the benefits comes at a very large cost.

Long story short, teaching is a hard job. But, when you add in the pay, the schedule and all of the benefits, teachers are paid adequately for their work.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Feb 12, 2009 - 06:11pm PT
After graduating with a degree in Chemical Engineering during an economic downturn, I looked at being a teacher because I could not find a yob. It would have taken more school to teach than a Masters in Engineering so I did that.

Now I am fortunate in that I have a government job, but I donate 1 week of OT for every month I work. And my retirement account as a Fed is not as good as a teachers. But I am not complaining, I also make signifacntly more than a teacher.

They have a hard job, mostly dealing with the adults as evidenced in this thread.

However, teachers who want to complain about their pay should have thought of that when they went into it. All those stats are out there. I chose chemical engineering because it was the hardest damn thing and almost assured me of a good job. It was my decision and I assure you there wasnt no stinking grade inflation where I went.

Does society underappreciate teachers? probably so. Would it be better if education were privatized? I doubt it, for one, no neat retirement package. But you do a hard job with illiterate parents expecting you to teach their kids. so keep your chin up.
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Feb 12, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
lugar, look into internship teaching credential programs. I don't know if the have them in that state next to Illinois (guess I don't teach geography)but they do back here, and those hoosiers are resourceful; full statring pay while you student teach. i am a product of such a program.

I don't complain about teacher pay, but it's not like it's something you would do to be rich. Plenty of 80 hr works weeks too, Russ, if that makes you feel better. Pretty much what I've been doing since Jan 5 of this year. Ask anybody how many times I have made it to after work, weekday climbing events. Not a wide wednesday/thrash thursday yet!

Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Feb 12, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
At which CA public K-12 schools to teachers make 60K after 5 years? Are you talking about people that enter the profession and the pay scale with 10 years of previous experience and a Ph.D. Otherwise, I'm pretty surpised at that figure. And I get paid by the state of CA to teach.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Feb 12, 2009 - 06:46pm PT
Here is the salaray schedule for the San Francisco Unified School District...probably one of the more expensive places to live while you teach, so presumeably not the lowest pay scale in the state. Maybe some of the harder to populate school districts offer combat pay.

http://portal.sfusd.edu/template/default.cfm?page=hr.faq#3

edit...I looked up Palo Alto. There's a more lucrative place to teach. You can be at 60K in 5 years there if you have a good bit of graduate education.

http://www.pausd.org/community/employment/teachers/downloads/TeacherSalary.pdf
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
Feb 12, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
I am amazed by the number of students I see here at the University with Algebra and Geometry books.

Something like 60 percent of the students cannot pass the Math Entrance Exam.

Scary.

Juan
Sancho

climber
Feb 12, 2009 - 07:48pm PT
Ok, so $60k is a little on the high side. Let's say $55k.

That still does not detract from the argument that teachers, when you count their summer vacation, benefits, retirement plan and job security, are compensated appropriately.

As for teachers working 80 hours a week, I call bull $hit. Either your math is bad, you are counting nap time, or you work too slow.

Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 12, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
I jus't want to know if any of this' is' going to help with the monstrous' s'in of apos'trophe abus'e.
TradIsGood

Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
Feb 12, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
I know a teacher who really is very smart. She graduated Princeton, then went back to take enough physics to qualify for NJ teaching requirements, which actually put her past the real norm.

But I must say, part of the reasons teachers may work "long hours" grading is because they create poor exams (from the grading perspective).

I helped grade a number of exams and "partial credit" is a disaster on a poorly designed exam. Her exams had great problems, but they typically had 3 or 4 parts. If you missed part one, it was hopeless that you would get the right answer for the subsequent parts. (These were layups for somebody who really knew the material.)

That is the way the "real world" operates. If you are supposed to land a spacecraft on the moon and you fail to make the earth orbit, or fail to leave at the right time with the right thrust, somebody is going to die! (I got a Princeton grad student teaching math to agree, but I don't think she ever got to make that her policy. LOL.)

But she (the HS physics teacher) insisted on trying to grade parts 2-4 to see if the kid understood. That takes an enormous amount of time. Now it was her first year. Maybe by now she has figured a way to "uncouple" the concepts and test them all in a simpler fashion.

Her problem was that a one hour exam for 25 kids took at least 10 minutes per kid to grade (unless they got nearly 100), so the one hour exam took over 4 hours to grade.

I also saw an exam created by an English teacher for The Odyssey. One of the questions involved ordering 7 events in the correct order. For those of you who are not familiar, the work is essentially episodic. The kidnapping of Helen and the Trojan war come first, then Odysseus eventually gets back home. This English teacher did not have a clue that if you knew the correct order of 6 of 7 of the items, that on average you would only get half credit for the question! Yikes! What is worse, is that he threw this question on just to make grading easy. But what did it measure?



When we want better teachers, we will offer more competitive compensation (especially in math and sciences), and we will abolish tenure. Today, the gifted and talented, for the most part, will avoid an education major, knowing that the end result is relatively low pay - though I have seen a study that suggests that the pay is very fair accounting for vacation, pensions, tenure and talent.

What will we do with better teachers? Hmm. There is a tough question. What could be tougher than teaching classes with kids that could be a grade or two higher and kids that should be a grade or two lower?

I taught a bit in grad school. Nursing students who only wanted a good grade in physics - not understanding. And ag students, who didn't even care. Why would ag students take physics? Probably even Einstein could not answer that one. :-)

Could it be rewarding? Sure - probably every class has 10-20% of students who are truly gifted and/or truly motivated to master a subject.



BTW. I think first year (in physics) gets you north of 60 here. Pretty damn fine start for a 9 month job. Software guys start a little north of that too, but work long hours for 12 months.
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Feb 12, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
Me am a teacher....(I mean, I is a teacher....)......most teachers teach for 1-5 years;...that's alot of edumacation to only bow out after a few years;...what gives?.....
Dirk

Trad climber
...and now, Manhattan
Feb 12, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
Moving from the Valley to Manhattan has been a bummer in some regards, so thank god for my amazing 11th-grade students. Now all you business types out there, if you wanted to run a software company that attracted the best employees would you offer them a high or low salary?

The thing that blows my mind is that 6-8 years of college aren't necessary to qualify for this job.
Cracko

Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
Feb 12, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
Todd,

Your life expectancy of a teacher is on the money. A majority leave the profession within the first five years. Why ?? You may be surprised to find out that money is not on the list. Lack of support and resources continues to be the number one reason. This is especially true in the current system of regimented standards-based education with the only measuring stick being a standardized test. Standardized tests are fine as long as you realize they serve more of a political purpose than educational. The heart and soul of education is really about relationships. Relationships between teachers, teachers and students, teachers and parents, and the culture of a school that truly places student achievement first. As educators continue to get beaten up based on the most recent standardized test scores, and marching rank and file to the recommendations of the most recent edcuational consultant, a large percentage of our student population is totally disengaged from the learning experience. What is the answer from the educational beauracracy.........more focus on new intervention programs, curriculum, and "holding teachers accountable". Nobody wants to talk about why Johnny is disengaged from the learning experience. The answer.....because the SH#TE your peddling him would put an adult to sleep !!!! Teachers are leaving the profession because they are not trusted, and are not given the freedom to use their creativity in engaging the student. Until this changes you will not see much change in student achievement, especially among the underrepresented student populations in this country. Is it any wonder we can't attrack anyone into the teaching profession ????


Respectfully,


Cracko
Cracko

Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
Feb 12, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
I would like to apologize to Russ Walling for inadvertently mispelling the word attract as attrack. Sh#t happens Russ, but I guarantee you if you were a student in my 8th grade social studies class, back in the day when I taught and wasn't an administrator, you and I would have connected, and you would have been fully engaged !!!


Cracko
Dirk

Trad climber
...and now, Manhattan
Feb 12, 2009 - 10:01pm PT
Word.

Attention haters, does your problem really lie with teachers or with administrators?
Cracko

Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
Feb 12, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
Dirk,

Careful now !! Please don't simplify this whole debate by targeting administrators. I've been a middle school principal for the last fifteen years, after teaching for ten. The system, i.e. NCLB and standards-based education, is what needs to be scrutinized and not individuals within the system. Together, we can find a solution !!! By the way Jaybro, would you please email me so we can discuss adventure based education and the Special Ed. population ???


Cracko
Rankin

climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 12, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
Teaching is a crappy job, only made worse by the bureaucracy of a school system, any school system. I'll tell you why children don't learn well in school...bad parenting. Who do you think will have more of an impact on the development of a child's mind, the person who sees them for one hour a day, five days a week, or the person(s) that spend numerous hours everyday with the child from the time of the child's birth to until the child's maturation to young adulthood? It seems obvious to me, that the parent can have a much more profound impact. But it's these same parents who complain when their children grow into dumb asses.
If people want children to learn more at school, then empower teachers, and pay them more. The cream will float to the top.
Cracko

Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
Feb 12, 2009 - 10:27pm PT
Rankin,

While I don't disagree with you, I must ask you where does that lead us?? I have told my teachers the following: You either accept the fact that teaching is parenting and you must find ways to inspire and instill in kids the values they are not getting from home, or you reject that fact and build more prisons. The choice is ours !!!


Cracko
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
Cracko;.......How about LA School Dist. boycotting standardized test to save 150 million dollars?.........(It's a start...)...We are losing 60 to 80 teachers......in the toilet goes classroom size reduction, and special ed programs so teachers will now be mainstreaming more special needs students with our new bulging classrooms.......plus no pay raise and cut in benies........maybe russ can hire me part time for minimum wage to crimp copperheads or sew aiders.......(As for the 80 hr. work week for teachers;...some do it;....I usually stuck to the 50 hour work week myself......)
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
Thx. for the tip Jaybro...I have heard of such fantastical tales of getting paid while you student teach. Here's the skinny. I got a friend who is in such said program via Montana State. It's a two year program (via the internet, which is a nice bonus) and includes paid student teaching. IU has a 9 mo. program including your indentured servitude for 3-4 mos. I opted for the express lane and swallow my losses during the student teaching. Probably not the best plan of action, but then again I've never been too good at either planning or action. Hope to before I dye! Thx. again for the tip...

Edit: That's awesome news Todd, once again my "timing in life" to become a teacher is uncanny.
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
Dick;...don't be discouraged;....kids need teachers like you;.....and with things getting more stressed, a bunch of teachers are going to quit, have heart attacks and die, get fired for not meeting standardized test scores, ...and I bet most districts will start thinking up some early retirement for the veteran teachers to bow out before they are carried out feet first... because they cost twice as much as the fresh meat........you will get a job, and you will love it......especially the kids, the vacations, and the stellar pay and benies......(Maybe even a donut or three at a stimulating staff meeting to boot....)

These three are about ready for the institution process to begin......and as George sez;.....he don't want them to be left behind..........I think they want/need more math and reading, and no art or music.....but I'm not sure on that;......wonder what Obama thinks?

Delhi Dog

Trad climber
Good Question...
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
Actually as a teacher I’m not really too offended by folks like Russ when he makes the observations he does. In fact I think they are pretty legit. You see that is how most of the US public views teaching and schools and there is a lot of truth in what he says.

As an institution public education really hasn’t changed that much in the last 80 years or so. But, the world in which students enter and leave has.
Our society has done a lousy job adapting to change in this regard. So, in my mind much of the “problems” that schools have is a direct result of this, and is our society’s fault. Not just teachers.
Public education needs a re-haul. But, and I think this IS important and to keep in mind, most teachers will always be willing to make it better, or put the effort into improving what they do and can do for students because their profession IS all about caring. Caring for someone other than themselves and caring about the “product” we “produce”. The money issue supports this.

Tenure is a result of the need for job security. Unfortunately I’d have to say it’s got a bum rap and for good reasons. If any one is incompetent in their job they should not be able to keep their job. This includes teachers. It’s the “lousy” teachers that give all teachers a bad name as is true for cops (Fatty you listening :>), or any other profession. Most people (as was stated earlier) think they are “experts” on teaching just because they have gone through school. Therefore they are “qualified” to determine competence in the teaching profession.
Many school districts are (and have been) scrambling for money for years. It is always cheaper to hire new teachers at a lower salary than to keep teachers that have built up experience (and pay) over the years. And, experience in this profession is an underrated variable. But, having “new blood” enter the profession and infuse energy has been key in keeping it all afloat.

If a teacher wants to move to a different district, state or whatever they are penalized in ways that affect their pay. Only so many years of teaching experience are transferable. So, many teachers do not move because it is financial suicide to do so sometimes resulting in unhappiness in their present jobs burnout or whatever.
One might say “then get a different job that pays more or quite complaining…” Is that the only choice for a person that has spent years educating themselves, gaining experience on the job, making connections to youngsters, changing lives, and loving what they do? Or should we recognize that salary should reflect all the above?

One thing to keep in mind; I can not think of any other profession that has the potential to impact positively or negatively the lives of youngsters. Society should not only recognize this but put in the resources, support, and expectations in steering our young people into making positive contributions to our world.
Teaching is a tough profession regardless of what you think or don’t think. As in any other field there are good teachers and there are teachers that are not good ones. To say they are paid too much, or have too much vacation time, or whatever just shows your ignorance.

Oh, and some teachers DO spend 80 hours…I don’t:>) At some point I realized I have a life too-and it is not just in the classroom.

Cheers,
DD

Rankin

climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
Cracko, I agree that we're screwed. Teaching is not parenting. It is the responsibility of the parent to prepare the child's mind to learn, and to behave civilly in public, including the classroom. It's not the teacher's job to love the child, but schools should set firm behavioral boundaries, for the interests of learning. Any attempts to establish a value system in the child's mind without the backing of the family is futile. As painful, and cold as this sounds, teaching emphasis should be a about academia, and misconduct should be punished appropriately, not lovingly.
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Feb 12, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
Thx. Todd...I won't get discouraged. I know I'll love it, it's a great fit. I just have to laugh at the timing of things. In '02 I bailed out of the teaching program in Wyoming. Starting pay was $26K...2 yr.s later the nat. gas boom was in full swing and starting pay shot up to $42K! Had to laugh over that one. I'm not doing it for the money, doing it for the intrinsic reward. Thx. for the pep talk...gotta go to bed, cheers.
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Feb 13, 2009 - 12:08am PT
It IS the job of the teacher to love the child;.....I teach kindergarten, and many of these kids aren't loved at home;....they are mistakes, expensive, noisy, messy, naughty, dumb, stinky, in the way, a pain in the ass, and interfere with parent's/guardian's partying.......and I do encourge/teach them in ways that aren't on any standardized test or considered academia;........I encourge/teach them to say please/thank you, not to hit or hurt, to wash their hands, say excuse me, not to pick their boogers and eat them, not to steal from me, to share, to try to do their best, to be a friend, to enjoy school and have a good attitude, to try new things, that everyone should be treated kindly, to forgive, to apologize, ....and I praise them for good work, good decisions, sharing, being kind, good effort, problem solving, and hangin' in there.......Stuff many parents do, but some don't;....teachers take in the slack;.......sticking strickly to academia sounds good on paper, but in the real classroom, it just don't float......
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Feb 13, 2009 - 12:21am PT
Good work, Todd.
Of course, in say 7th/8th grade, "tough love" might be the equivalent,
since some of the kids are testing the teacher to see if they can hijack the classroom.
Rankin

climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 13, 2009 - 12:22am PT
Todd, my teaching experience (very little) was mostly middle school and high school. Certainly not kindergarten. What I did see was that schools that put an emphasis on discipline were much better learning environments. When you have a kid dropping the f-bomb in your class, it's a little hard to set the mood.
I don't think a loving teacher is a bad teacher, but the contrary. But my experience tells me that schools that do not have a respected authority system are hell holes. At some point, children who are underperforming and misbehaving have to be treated as a problem, not as a son or daughter. The burden on our schools is too great if we cannot set some boundaries for what is the responsibility of our schools. Otherwise, academia will fail, and kids that could do well in school will suffer.
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Feb 13, 2009 - 12:27am PT
I'm on it, Principal Cracko expect a message shortly.

Btw, I don't live by the 80 week, I just find that that's about what it takes for a month or so in a new gig, and every so often when certain things hit a high point otherwise itn often does get back to the 50 or so that Todd mentioned.
Delhi Dog

Trad climber
Good Question...
Feb 13, 2009 - 12:51am PT
I'd just like to say (write) I'm proud to be in a profession that has the kind of people; teachers and administrators who are voicing their thoughts here.
And, to the supportive parents of your children...you have my admiration and thanks.

I have not read passion like this for awhile now.

Keep up the good work gang!

Cheers,
DD
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Feb 13, 2009 - 10:47am PT
True dat DD...I vote for Todd Gordon as President of the "ST Teacher's Morale Booster Committee" and Jaybro for Veep! Thx. again guys for the support and words of wisdom...
Delhi Dog

Trad climber
Good Question...
Feb 13, 2009 - 11:39am PT
"I vote for Todd Gordon as President of the "ST Teacher's Morale Booster Committee" and Jaybro for Veep"

Hell, I've never meet either one (I don't think) but I'll second that vote:-)

Cheers
DD
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Feb 13, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
""I vote for Todd Gordon as President of the "ST Teacher's Morale Booster Committee" and Jaybro for Veep""
-I've met both of them and the older one is pretty cool and knows his zhit!!
couchmaster

climber
Mar 11, 2009 - 04:21pm PT

I just couldn't imagine this woman making any money as a prostitute anywhere outside of a school for the blind....sorry, jus sayin'.

















This one: yes I could.
Doug Zeissner

Trad climber
Buena Park, ca
Mar 11, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
I have read through this thread and found it somewhat curious that teachers are the topic of displeasure for the " results" of the educational system. Its a lot like blaming the soldiers for the mistakes of the generals and the politicians. I must agree with some of the comments of the ESL kids and non- responsible parents being part of the equation. I am looking at the schools in my area ( I have a 5 year old going to school next year ) and have noted that there is a direct correlation between academic acheivemnet and the percentage of ESL kids and subsidised lunches. Looking at schools in the same area I find it hard to believe that the teachers are better or worse at the different schools. I have to believe that the teachers in the the private schools near me are really not any different than the Public school teachers. I think that the private schools- because of the extra expense recieve a higher percentage of motivated PARENTS, and may not have the same political hoops to jump through.
That said,I am fortunate that I am in a position to send my kid to a private school ( even though it hurts!)not because of the superior teachers- but mostly because of the demographics and
the involved parents.
Our friend Todd deserves our respect. I am sure he earns his paycheck. I am sure that there are underperforming teachers- but there are underperformers in every workplace. Look beyond the teachers to find the real reason for California's educational crisis- unchecked immigration- the politicalization of the system and the centralization of the school " standards" as some of the real culprits.
hobo_dan

Social climber
Minnesota
Mar 11, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
I teach at one of the best schools in Minnesota- and I doubt there are very many better in the country.
What we have that let's us succeed is a good family base- not too many single parent families. Raising kids is hard work and it's more than twice as hard to do it alone
Our kids are polite and respectful-I can come in to teach and not have to deal with a bunch of snotty behavior
We have an upper middle class community that buys into the education thing- translates into family support. When I call home for help I get it.
Our kids aren't hostile to each other- they have the ability to get along.
If I was going to list what a kid needs to be successful heres how I'd break it down

1. Willingness to struggle and work hard
2. Be polite and respectful- makes people want to help you if you're not a pain in the ass
3. Don't take yourself too seriously

If you've got these three you can go a long way. Take even one away and your chances for success drop off

Look around at the people you know who are happy with their lives and themselves. People who you enjoy hanging with. Bet they have these qualities

thats Mr. Hobo to you

couchmaster

climber
Mar 11, 2009 - 07:00pm PT
Mr Hobo just nailed it.
hobo_dan

Social climber
Minnesota
Mar 11, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
Reading some of the other threads regarding pay- I make approx. $65,000 for 9 months- after 23 years or so doing the job. I have a good pension that I can access at 55. But I pay (with my employer) 11% of my income into my retirement account
I figure I have 3-4 months off every year- and thats worth a hell of a lot to me- Too many poor slobs get a high paying job but then they're screwed because they have to work and work and work- I'd rather have limited means and the time to pursue my own interests
It's been a pretty interesting job for me- gives me a chance to be creative and to work with kids- maybe even make a difference-maybe not- that'll be for my students to decide.
I worked for 15 years at a tough school-worked my ass off and it simply wasn't working for me. Too much stress and my health started to fail.
Took another job across town at my present school.
I'd recommend going into teaching but don't expect to have everyone blowing sunshine up your a*#.
"Takes about ten years to learn how to teach
Ten years to enjoy it
And then ten years to figure out what else you want to do"
annonymous Seattle teacher

Still Mr. Hobo to you
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 11, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
It should take waiver by the Governor of a state for a teacher to have more than 20 students. Our priorities are collossaly f#cked up.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Mar 11, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
haha I only read a few poast, but since I was neck deep in the problem, well, hear this:

IT ain't so much the teachers. I IS partly the money and the ONLY true thing to ever come out of skipt's keyboard is his coment about firing the deppt of education. well OK< not all, byt proably 95% area TOTALLY WORTHLESS< and they spread CRAP and nithign but hte crap, yet they hold great power over what the new teacheres beleive adn are taught-- until those new teachers hit hte realy world and learn the sad truth: educaltion degrees are worthless because hte people giving them out are worthless, and ou learn this if not while putting up with their BULLSIHT, thatn in y9ur first rfew moths of actual teaching.

YEs hterea are lots of good teachers , working for no money. yes that are some bad oens that need to go, Parental involvement makes a HUGe difference is a child's behavior in class unless tha child is badly retarded or a gang member.

thetroublewith throwiingoutthe bad kids is that it's PUBLIC education, but it woould sure be nice to ave real discipline in schools. a taacher shoudl not be responsible ro siacipline, but hat is what is expected.

and I'd LOVE to throw be bad ones out, but wher are you going to put them? theyr are headed for proson. gotta be some way between prison ane lettingthem ruin things that will work, I just don't know waht it is and neither does anyone else.

I won't bore you with how stupd this one woman (with a phd in education) was , but she did not know waht the word venue meant . she did not know the expression "facinga a sea change" meant, and in fact counted it's useages a wrong, lOL.

Anotehr brilliant guy told me in writing that if Ithought I could tach logic to 9th greaderes iwas in for a rude awakening, but when I tried, I had better luck with that that anything else-- becuase they had never seen it before, and first priciples are VERY simple.

THose education PhD's are just idiots in lager part.

On the other hand, some are quite accomplished.

NOt going into administration vs teachers, but that can be a real mess.

Oh yeah, Russ is speaking like a rethuglican moron. That's why people gave him crap for what he said, Lynne.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 11, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
Teachers aren't the problem, the DoE isn't the problem, the principals aren't the problem or the solution - the problem is 50,000 local school boards all cranking out a lousy product. They are also rooted in nepotism in most rural states where the school systems are often some of the states' largest employers and the whole system is open to, and rife with, gaming the $'s/student numbers in each state. Tennessee is a good example of a disasterous state system, but there are no shortage of others.

The idea that local school boards can deliver education in this country holds about as much water as say the free market forces can regulate the financial industry - local school boards, and our system of letting them run education, has MISERABLY FAILED our nation since the end of WWII. We will NEVER solve our education crisis so long as this is the way we go about it.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Mar 12, 2009 - 12:09am PT
haha you got one I missed. It's soooo complicated, you have to fix em all at once, which going to be nearly impossible.


and do you know whrea a lot of politicians, especially right wing creationists get their start?

School board elections-- the one that is paid the least attention and actually has a LOT of power, just not in most people's minds.
Rankin

climber
Bishop, CA
Mar 12, 2009 - 12:35am PT
hobo_dan, sound like you've got it figured out. Awesome.
hobo_dan

Social climber
Minnesota
Mar 12, 2009 - 10:55am PT
Rankin- I tried to apply for a job in Bishop in 1985- I was about to drive from Minnesota for the interview but they wouldn't/couldn't wat for me to get there
So I stuck around here and met my wife that June.
Go figure
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Mar 12, 2009 - 11:06am PT
Here you go Russ, Ca state Educational standards;

http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/

-Punk Ass, haha!
Living in the Pabst

Trad climber
Quartz Hill, CA
Mar 12, 2009 - 11:12am PT
My wife has been an elementary school teacher for about 15 years and what Mr. Hobo said is spot on.

And while she probably wouldn't agree with me, I think she makes some decent money - especially when you consider the benefits (health, dental, vision retirement..).

Anyone who gets into education to make "good money' is not going to be happy and is probably the "wrong" person for the job.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 12, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
Skip,

I'm still hopeful that Obama will confront the education problems. Frankly, I have more hope in him that I have in any Republican, because he has a credibility with the movers and shakers in education that no Republican has. In a way, it's like Nixon going to China, or Clinton championing NAFTA and welfare reform. An Obama attack on the educational status quo will more likely result in bipartisan reform than would a Republican attack.

Otherwise, I strongly disagree with those who say that we need not offer more money to get better teachers. More money may not make a difference to someone right out of college with little debt, but to anyone else, the amount of debt accumulated in college -- or the obligations taken on in a more highly-compensated carreer -- greatly limits the career choice. The larger and more diverse the pool of those considering teaching, the greater the likelihood that we hire our best teachers.

I know I never considered switching to teaching as a full-time career, even though I loved doing it, and all of my students encouraged (even begged) me to do so, when I was making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year practicing law. Only when health issues forced a career change (and weathering a financial catastrophe) did that become possible. I doubt I am alone in that situation.

I personally prefer larger classes, but then I teach at the college and professional level, not, say, third grade. I know my daughter, who teaches high school math, thinks that large classes are less of a deterrent to good teaching than irrelevant topics, incompetent administrators and teachers (at various levels) and indifferent parents and students.

I know some find this distasteful, but I also think that raising the compensaton of teachers might raise the prestige of the profession to something closer to what it deserves. I've received tremendous gratification -- and lots of positive strokes -- from teaching, but I know a lot of wonderful, dedicated, talented teachers who deserve much greater esteem than what they've been given.

John
Zclipper69

Trad climber
mill valley
Jan 9, 2018 - 11:50pm PT
Good People of the Taco,

I'm a senior in High School—I have just spent all of my young life in public schools in Mill Valley, Ca, which are supposed to be among the best in the country.

Public education sucks ass.

Well to be fair, it has treated me fairly well, as I've learned a handful of things, been inspired by teachers (a few times), and I've gotten decent grades.

However, what public schools do not do, and for them to be successful in their educational goals it is imperative that they do this: is explicitly and convincingly tell students the importance of an education both for themselves personally and for their society.

In a capitalist society you will get f*#ked if you can be f*#ked; if you are stupid or lack critical thinking skills you will be swindled, cheated, and for all intents and purposes, you will be f*#ked by people who are rich or just know that they can f*#k you over. We have seen this recently in the case of the Trump and his policies— the removal of net neutrality, deregulating the environment, as well as the recent GOP tax bill. These are just a handful of examples, I could fairly easily list hella more.

Additionally, there are a multitude of crucial things not explicitly taught in public schools, which are once again very f*#king important to teach: critical thinking, basic principles of physics, how to make a convincing argument (rhetoric), and practical math. Well, yes, it is possible to learn these things at a public school, you have to want to learn them to actually be able to learn them. That is wrong, as these are subjects which all people living in a science-based, fact-based, modern society must know. Democracy works best when all citizens are well educated and thus can see through bullshit and avoid getting f*#ked.

I could go on and on about this bull sh#t, but sleep is calling. I barely scraped the surface on this sh#t.

I would highly advise looking over Chongo Chuck's website: http://www.chongonation.org/

Zclipper 69, out.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jan 9, 2018 - 11:56pm PT
I spent all those years in public schools and they never even taught me how to pleasure a lady. Hella stupid, hella lame!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 10, 2018 - 12:21am PT
I would highly advise looking over Chongo Chuck's website
That education website needs some serious remodeling by someone who actually has some education, and who knows WTF they are doing
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jan 10, 2018 - 04:53am PT
yeah learning in public how to pleasure one's self never mind others leaves a lot to be desired, or is it desiring of?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 10, 2018 - 09:07am PT
Greatest teacher in the world is needed to overcome bad parenting
BAM!!!!!!!!!
jeff constine

Trad climber
Ao Namao
Jan 10, 2018 - 09:36am PT
New School Teachers!!! Not FAKE news. True story.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jan 10, 2018 - 09:44am PT
Full disclosure: I was a middle-class kid who went to a terrific private school and had the most wonderful teachers. Looking back, I can see that these men and women shaped my life, my choice of profession, and my attitudes towards others. I learned a lot from my college and especially my graduate school teachers, but by that time I was gonna learn by myself regardless of what my teachers did or didn't do---they were the icing on a cake baked in high school.

My daughter went to a very big public school in Dutchess County. It wouldn't be right to call it a suburban public school, but calling it a rural public school is wrong too. Although I wouldn't say that her teachers were uniformly as good as mine, she still had a superb education and, in particular, got a music education fully equivalent to a conservatory while having access to academic AP courses. My small private high school couldn't have begun to offer that kind of experience.

I have an idea what my teachers were making, and an idea what her teachers were making, and in terms of what they did for their students, the time, effort, and thought they put into it, doubling or tripling their salaries would not have realized their contribution to the lives of their students. It also wouldn't have come close to the single year-end bonus of a hedge-fund manager who added value to his or her client's portfolios but nothing to their personal development.

Are we hiring the wrong teachers? Sure, some of the time. Just like any other industry or organization (especially in view of the fact that teachers jobs, by and large, are far harder than the work most people do). Are we paying them too little? Generally, I think so. This is partially a reflection of when teaching was "women's work" and so an artifact of the gender pay gap, but there are a host of other reasons as well.

I don't know why people go into elementary and secondary teaching nowadays. The pay is minimal for the educational investment required, the atmosphere is poisonous, both in terms of public disrespect and in terms of being endlessly buffeted by "standards" and "evaluations" designed for purposes that may be distantly related to learning and are increasingly infused with political considerations that run counter to anything recognized as valid by experts in the fields, there are virtually no mentoring and support mechanisms to help teachers develop, they are isolated in their classrooms and have almost no opportunity to intact with colleagues, and they are held solely responsible for the effects of societal issues well beyond their control. Who exactly are the "right" teachers in this situation, and what level of pay is "too little?"

I was a fortunate beneficiary of the Sputnik "crisis," in which Russia was perceived as leaping ahead of the US in science and technology and money poured into education at all levels, allowing us to catch up and surpass the USSR. My guess is that the education situation won't improve much until an analogous crisis happens---and the country's current social and political situation guarantees that such a crisis will happen, as we fail to develop our own talent, disparage the talent we have, and unilaterally instigate an immigrant brain drain to the benefit of other countries. The only question is, when the inevitable happens, whether we will have dug too deep a hole to ever get out of.
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Jan 10, 2018 - 11:08am PT
We have a culture of "credentialed" "highly qualified" teachers. These are people who had enough time and money to add years to their college education. But people who had no choice but to work after college are basically excluded. Internship programs are rare. As a result we have a workforce of "professional" teachers, not unlike career politicians.

There are very few professional athletes teaching PE. There are no doctors, lawyers or professional scientists teaching biology, anatomy or debate. Most of the English teachers never worked as journalists, authors or media producers. The art instructors were not professional graphic artists or painters. The Ag teacher was not a farmer or botanist. The History teacher was not a soldier, ambassador, or public figure. The foreign language teachers are frequently not native speakers. The music teachers often have no professional entertainment careers on their resumes. The drama teacher is not a movie star. There are no policemen or city council people teaching government or civics. Health classes are usually not taught by health and wellness practitioners. Math and physics are never taught by engineers who actually practice engineering. Chemistry is taught by somone with a bachelors degree who never worked for a chemical company or refinery. As a science teacher, I have found no colleagues who ever worked any length of time at a lab bench or in professional academia or research for the private sector. The computer teacher didnt work at Microsoft.

Most and sometimes all of the faculty at our schools are teachers who chose teaching as a career. They recite what they have been taught but not what they have actually done. Would you hire a climbing guide who has never been on real rock? But we hire far too many teachers who have never practiced the craft they endeavor to teach our children. Our kids are not dumb. They see these "highly qualified" teachers as posers and they are right to see them that way. How can a credentialed teacher inspire and mentor our youth to excell in fields that the teachers didnt find worthy of real persuit themselves? The moment the teacher opens a textbook, the class knows they are about to be given a TV dinner packaged by some government agency that didnt bother to hire a chef!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jan 10, 2018 - 12:24pm PT
Chainsaw, I'll be blunt. The skills required to inspire, motivate, and guide young people in gaining basic knowledge are very different from the skills required to excel in some specific application of that basic knowledge. I would MUCH rather have my kids taught by professional teachers who understand the psychology of kids and how to manage a room-full of pubescent energy and how to share the basic knowledge that kids are learning at that age, than to have a "professional" of some "real-world" (i.e. non-educational) practice who may or may not be able to cope with kids.

You don't need to understand the corporate culture of big pharma or have a portfolio of patents or leading publications to teach kids the periodic table of elements and spdf orbitals and electronegativity and how to figure out the weight of one mole of a given molecule. (that said, I take it for granted that teachers need to be competent in their knowledge of the level of material they are teaching).

Teaching IS a profession, and people in our society who do not respect or appreciate that are part of the problem of why we find ourselves with daily opportunities to make dark-humored jokes that end with #MAGA.

I know several good teachers that inspired my kids who are considering leaving the profession because they can't afford to buy a house within an hour commuting range of where they work (in a great wealthy school district filled with parents who value education and paid a premium for their houses to be around other parents who think the same way). There is no future path to making a modestly financially secure life possible for teachers in affluent areas. It is a servant class in our growing divide of rich and poor. Maybe these great teachers don't want to put up with a room of kids where a significant percentage are trouble-makers with no sense of boundaries or respect for authority and who are on the fast track to prison, because they didn't enjoy the presence of loving and supportive care-givers that could guide them in their critical early years.

As a dysfunctional society, we create children who enter the school system with myriad problems and poor disposition to excel in a scholastic environment: poverty, racism, addiction, lack of affordable childcare while parents work, lack of access to healthy role models and behaviors and early education during the first critical years of life... and somehow we expect under-appreciated, under-respected, under-paid teachers to make up for all these problems and perform miracles, and when kids still come out screwed up, it is the teacher's fault! Until we as a society can recognize the burden we place on teachers and the lack of responsibility we take for the problems we lay at their laps, we aren't going to make America Great Again.

Instead, we will say "the system is broken" and privatize it so wealthy folks can squeeze out extra bits of profit, and they will enforce socio-economic filters to block out the unworthy classes, and ignore that piece while touting their students' high performance as a success and proof that the model works. And the divide will be deepen. And America will become dumberer. And vote for more mindless stuff that carries us toward our destruction. While thinking people fret and wave their hands and are disparaged by the dumbererest masses.

p.s. Sorry Tad if I extended the diatribe beyond that which you initially supported :) But I couldn't help myself!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 10, 2018 - 12:48pm PT
I spent all those years in public schools and they never even taught me how to pleasure a lady. Hella stupid, hella lame!

That's because they get thrown in jail when they teach that.

Erin McAuliffe, 25, was arrested Thursday and charged with three counts of sexual activity with a student and one count of indecent liberties with a minor, WNCN-TV reports.

McAuliffe is no longer working for Rocky Mount Prep, the school said Friday, which was the last class day of the year for the public charter school.

Those poor abused boys. How will they ever recover from this trauma?

Then there was his monster preying on our youth:

A 27-year-old Texas high school science teacher has been accused of being “engaged in sexual contact” with a 17-year-old student.

Sarah Madden Fowlkes has been suspended from her job at Lockhart High School after she was arrested Monday, the school district announced.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Jan 10, 2018 - 12:55pm PT
persuit
is really pursuit


Sorry, just one of those (albeit former) uninspiring professional educators.

Susan
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 10, 2018 - 01:03pm PT
Those who can't, teach.

Those who can't teach, teach P.E.

Those who can't teach P.E. become administrators.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jan 10, 2018 - 01:08pm PT
Truth, Nut. I recently left teaching after nearly 30 years of busting heads--mostly my own, I fear. I, however, had it WAY easy compared to my brothers and sisters in the K--12 world. As a community college instructor, I had much more freedom and autonomy. Beyond some general standards/guidelines, my classes were my own. Lazy students earned their "F's," and those who missed a lot of class got cut--sweet! No parents could touch me. Their little darlings were adults, and FERPA regulations make it clear that I must not discuss the students' work or experience without specific consent. As I was leaving, I heard rumblings that teaching at my level was in for more regulation, so I'm glad I got out when I did.

What I can tell you, however, is that even the BEST TEACHER--whatever that means--will usually fail with students who don't have the support at home. No doubt there will be exceptions, but unless the student is well supported or unusually self-motivated, much of what we do in the classroom will not amount to much. Time after time after time I tried to work with students, offering personalized help, referrals to tutors and support centers, revisions on papers...you name it. Time after time, the students just folded, refused to do the work, racked up "D's" and zeros. I would typically lose 1/3 to 1/2 of my classes by the end of the semester. I know I got through to some, but, man, that's a lot of tilting at windmills. The problem is that a lot of learning, especially at the lower levels, involves hard work, repetition, toughness. Kids will rarely persist without some pushing from behind (home/parents).

And don't get me started on the CRAZY workload for K--12 teachers. In my discipline--English--high school instructors will typically have 180 students. That's fu*king insane. Giving meaningful feedback on student writing is incredibly time consuming and difficult. Try it sometime if you doubt me. To do a good job with that many students? Well, that's why God invented alcohol.

BAd

Edit: What is it with these hot, hot, hot six kittens going after young men? And why wasn't I one of them--the lucky young men, that is. I'm pretty comfortable with my gender. Heh.
plund

Social climber
OD, MN
Jan 10, 2018 - 01:21pm PT

"A real education allows you to critically think and understand why they want you to swallow those talking points and regurgitate them.

Fundamentally, the problem is not teachers, but a culture of anti-intellectualism and anti-science pushed (mostly) by resource extractors with billions in cash that hate pesky smarties calling them on their destruction of the Earth".

Replace everything after 'mostly' with "LW admins & institutions that value politically correct party-line indoctrination over critical thinking and rigorous debate" and you may be onto something.

The example of a RW speaker being physically chased from a Berkeley stage (Berkeley, birthplace of the FREE SPEECH movement!!)would be the ultimate irony if it wasn't so pathetic and disappointing.





Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 10, 2018 - 01:27pm PT
Son of a 5th grade teacher. Wanted to be a teacher but after seeing what a toll it took on her,
especially with regard to the horrid administrators, I said no. I have a nephew who is
a high school science teacher and I am unanimous in averring you will not find a better teacher,
on this planet at least. He is pretty mellow so he seems to roll with the BS punches.
WBraun

climber
Jan 11, 2018 - 07:40am PT
Teacher in Louisiana get handcuffed and arrested for questioning

Yes, that's how it is now.

Do not question authority, remain st00pid.

There is no need for truth they have said .......
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jan 11, 2018 - 08:19am PT
^^^^^ Huh?

Where's your sense of humor, dude? Besides, most of us on this thread are supporting teachers and teaching--regardless of who's doing it. Most straight males, however, find the fantasy of the teachers featured above to be hard to resist.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

BAd
plund

Social climber
OD, MN
Jan 11, 2018 - 08:24am PT
Thanks for helping make my point, tut, by skipping debate & discourse and going directly to the ad hominem. And regurgitating LW talking points while bloviating about punching Nazis is no way to go through life, son. Does that apply to Commies as well? You must be a real tough (anonymous / online)guy....

FWIW, I DO have a public school education, AND I've watched with dismay as my HS art teacher brother gets hosed by the union whose dues he has no choice but to pay. Seems his district is more concerned with parking, landscaping and maintaining 6-figure admin positions than with staffing and curriculum. So a tenured art teacher (who actually IS a potter, to refer to the whole qualifications thing)has his hours cut to 80% while there are more than enough students to justify more classes.

Advocating violence is the online equivalent of 'nanny nanny boo boo', akin to citing faith or belief in support of an argument. And while immediately ridiculing an opposing viewpoint is a classic debate technique it resolves nothing, while actually showing the weakness of the original argument.

Not everyone shares your beliefs / interpretations / conclusions; last I checked that was permitted in this country. It doesn't make those people evil, or stupid, or even wrong.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 11, 2018 - 08:37am PT
Seems his district is more concerned with parking, landscaping and maintaining 6-figure admin positions than with staffing and curriculum.

So true. You forgot looking after their pensions. The rest of yer rant was spot on, too.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Jan 11, 2018 - 08:51am PT
You can cite one example of some f*#ked up podunk high school district all you want. It does not mean for a second that you have a clue how the pre-eminent Public University system on Planet Earth, The University of California, is run or how critical thinking is taught.

Preeminent be one word they no teech in the UC sistum with no haberdashery.

And they no teech Voltaire any moore eether.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
plund

Social climber
OD, MN
Jan 11, 2018 - 08:58am PT
University of Minnesota....guess that's private in your world.

So the CA University system is the paragon which should be emulated by all? Please...it seems the only 'critical' in your definition of critical thinking is "It's CRITICAL that you think like me or else".

Why are you so angry? Was the Starbucks out of macchiata?

And is it my duty to punch Commies in the face as well? They can be every bit as racist / misogynist / chauvinist as Nazis. If you're so hung up on duty, take an oath & join the armed forces, then you can do more than punch people in the face.

How many Nazis have you actually punched in the face? How were the battery charges resolved, if it wasn't self-defense?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:01am PT
ps and Yes, Reilly, you are trash, but you knew that.

Why, because I happen to have different opinions than you, or because your insecurities don’t allow you to discuss things as an adult? Or don’t you support teachers vs runaway administrations?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:10am PT
White Supremacy? Is your reading comprehension that bad? What does that have to do with this thread, not that we’ve ever ‘discussed’ that topic.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:12am PT
Tut, not sure how that equates to "white supremacy." Please explain. (Or not.) My 2A reference was related to the terrifying leftist group-think in which blank slates like you are immersed. If the UC system is producing drones like you then, at some point, the rest of us will need to defend ourselves.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:14am PT
It's the Twenty-First Century, Reilly.

You can't be wrong without having something wrong with you.

Anyone who holds a differing opinion on anything is a "...phobe", a "...tard", or an "..ist".
plund

Social climber
OD, MN
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:23am PT
And remember....anyone not one the Left Coast or Right Coast is a 'podunk' who can't possibly know anything.

How'd that coastal elitism work out in the last election?

You hold up as an example worth emulating (the CA Univ system)an establishment that actively limited free speech and discourse...whether or not YOU deem it 'hate speech' is immaterial. Was that to protect the shockingly vulnerable and sensitive ears that might have heard it, or to ensure that an opposing viewpoint (again, regardless of how offensive YOU might find it) is squelched? Whatever happened to the old "sticks and stones" saw? Are words now considered physical articles, like truncheons and jackboots? Talk about an entrenched elite cabal protecting itself...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:32am PT
Both the left and the right wallow in their own hypocrisies while attacking "the other side." The net result is to increase authoritarian tendencies, eliminate middle ground for compromise, and so doom not only the chances for solving real problems, but the foundations on which democracy depends.
plund

Social climber
OD, MN
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:55am PT
Thanks, rgold, for the gift of brevity. Wish I could have successfully articulated so much in so few words.

StOOpid hOOmins is right....we should all remember that when any of us start believing our feces are odor-free....
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 11, 2018 - 10:18am PT
When you advocate murder in response to speech, you're the one who's out of line.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 11, 2018 - 10:25am PT
Sorry, my time machine is stuck on 2018.

You're the one who thinks it's OK to murder someone for holding a different opinion.

The "Nazis" you see exist only in your imagination.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 11, 2018 - 10:38am PT
Different opinion, different belief, and you're going to murder someone over it.

Genius.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Jan 11, 2018 - 10:42am PT
Tut, you need to calm down a bit. Clearly you've been manipulated into believing a threat that isn't real. Don't like Nazis? I doubt you'll find anyone here who does. And wouldn't it be better to adhere to the tenets of free speech than "punch someone in the face," or dress up in black and smash a bunch of storefronts? You should feel free to mock and marginalize whatever ideology you want. But calling anyone who disagrees with you on any topic a "white supremacist" or a Nazi--and punching them in the face--is just juvenile. And, re the latter, criminal.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jan 11, 2018 - 10:42am PT
KT, I consider myself a progressive, and so I suppose part of the "left wing," and I agree with your comment that there is no hypocrisy in decrying white supremacy and nazis.

The trouble is that both the left and the right have increasingly tried to make their case on the basis of the most extreme examples, like the unbuttoned teachers salaciously depicted upthread. Milo Yiannopoulos is an outlier---too toxic even for Breitbart---and refusing him a platform is an exercise in common decency, but many reasonable proponents of conservative viewpoints have been shouted down in the halls of academe as well, and that is not only deeply hypocritical, but undermines every important thing an institution of "higher learning" ought to stand for.

Focusing on egregious fringe examples like the despicable neo-nazi movement can obscure from view the vast array of important societal issues that also need to be addressed and which can only be solved by way of cooperation amidst groups which somehow have gone from being intellectual rivals to mortal enemies. The dizzying rapidity with which this discussion about teaching devolved into polarized name-calling illustrates the problem we face as a democracy as well as anything.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jan 11, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
Thanks, DMT, for a noble effort at thread realignment! I share your sentiments wholeheartedly. One of my favorite students from a couple of years ago was a young man in one of my transfer-level comp classes. He did well, worked really hard, came in often for one-on-one conferences, and passed with a "B," if I recall correctly. Since I frequently went through semesters without granting any "A's," this kid was a solid standout. His goal in life? Phreakin' kick-ass welder. I'm sure he's making a great living right now. I have a block of metal with "THUG" cut out with a cutting torch that he gave me as a parting gift. Honor the trades!

BAd
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jan 11, 2018 - 03:30pm PT
The tradesman I have worked with over the years that enjoy art, literature and history are not Trump supporters- just saying...

Lituya

Mountain climber
Jan 11, 2018 - 03:35pm PT
I think there is too much emphasis on 'college or bust' public educational curriculum. And there is too much emphasis placed on superfluous course material (and I don't mean the humanities).

Me, I think we need to return to a more votec-oriented emphasis for the majority of public high school students and teach skills that translate into employment skills.

Absolutely. Among all the primary choices for president in 2016, Marco Rubio was the only one talking about this. Too bad, because it's what we need.
clode

Trad climber
portland, or
Jan 11, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
Both. Schools are hiring teacher wanna-bees fresh out of college because the school districts can pay these "kids" the least. The quality teaching that the real kids get is pretty low, overall. Not to say that some of the "kid" teachers aren't really good, because some of them are, but the school districts are overlooking the older, wiser, more experienced teachers, like my wife with a Master's degree and 19 years of experience with K-12th graders.

But having good teachers is only part of the equation. For the most part, class sizes are way too big, and kids with "special needs" are typically thrown in with the mix, so you have no kid gets ahead, as the teacher has to "dumb down" the lessons so the poor leaners can "get it". And in reality the teacher is more of a day care provider than an actual teacher. They are more busy keeping the students from killing themselves than having time for actual teaching and learning.

Finally, Betsy Devoss is not helping this situation, at all. She could not care less, as she gets money from charter schools and predatory student loans.

Lituya

Mountain climber
Jan 11, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
Tut, if you're afraid of a few tools with Walmart Tiki torches, well, there's probably not much help available for you.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Snowflake



NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jan 11, 2018 - 03:51pm PT
Why is it that "snowflake" has been stolen by "conservative"/right-wing/etc. people and turned into a bad thing? I think the idea that each person is as beautiful and unique as a snowflake is wonderful. It is a poetic expression that gives dignity to humans, and gives a useful metaphor for a way to find personal value as an individual that harmoniously exists in society. And yet, it is used as a mark of shame and ugliness, really as a projection of the shame and ugliness in the minds of the people who use the term in a derogatory fashion.

Sad. Who can look at a snowflake and see shame and ugliness? Let some light and some love in your hearts people :)
hailman

Trad climber
Sacramento
Jan 11, 2018 - 03:54pm PT
Just realized this thread was revived by a high schooler disappointed with public education. Sorry about your education, but sounds like yer headed in the right direction! (first step is to be angry, as long as you don't disengage from trying to make things better :)

I agree with the posters here that have lamented the rise in standardized testing and loss of shop class and music electives. And the importance of good parenting...

Fact is my parents could have shipped me off to Milwaukee Public Schools where the truancy rate is through the roof (around 70%, and defined as a student that misses 5 or more days per semester). I would have been exposed to gangs and drugs. Instead I went to nice, suburban high school, met teachers that set high expectations, and got my hands on loads of AP classes. Went off to college with 40 course credits in the bag from those AP classes.

There's a nice article on programs that work well for truant students:
http://milwaukeenns.org/2014/11/17/special-report-nearly-three-quarters-of-mps-high-school-students-labeled-truants/

And to quote it:
“Few things with law enforcement actually work to lower truancy rates,” said Alan Borsuk, a public policy fellow at Marquette Law School. “What does work is engaging the kids with what they’re learning.”

Dan Herro, a teacher at Washington High School of Information Technology, 2525 N. Sherman Blvd., agrees with Borsuk’s observation. He said that whenever field trips or guest speakers are scheduled, attendance numbers are much better.

“It’s a matter of having an engaging curriculum,” Herro said. “That’s what’s going to keep them in the classroom.”

Mentoring also keeps students in their seats.

Field trips, guest speakers, mentors, music...all these things cost more money than printing a stupid standardized test. These poor teachers are caught in the crossfire of all these larger social/fiscal issues of our times.

I had the chance to tutor kids at Casa Pacifica down in Ventura Cty for two years. They were kids moving through the foster system that would have been homeless otherwise. Very common that their parents were drug addicts. It was heartbreaking work since a lot of them only stayed for a few weeks before moving on to some other point in the system. But there were some real successes as tutoring allows you to fill in the gaps from all those missed days of school.

Lituya

Mountain climber
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
https://www.city-journal.org/html/truant-teacher-problem-15470.html

. . . using data from the U.S. Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights, a Fordham Institute study released in September demonstrates the full extent of the absentee problem. On average, teachers miss about eight school days a year due to sick and personal leave, while the average U.S. worker takes only about three and a half sick days per annum. Worse, the study shows that 28.3 percent of teachers in traditional public schools are chronically absent—defined as missing more than 10 days of school per year because of illness or personal reasons.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:36pm PT
I'm afraid to say that no amount of money or realignment of the education system is going to fix anything, as long as parents don't teach their kids good school habits and values at an early age. Most parents are not doing that anymore.

Young children are being left to lead independent lives without supervision, and they are not developing the life skills and discipline that are necessary to succeed in any learning environment, whether it be vocational or academic.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:45pm PT
One area where I can sympathize with K-12 teachers is discipline. No doubt it's frustrating having hands tied when disruptive kids are ruining all their efforts to educate the rest.

Lituya

Mountain climber
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:49pm PT
Why is it that "snowflake" has been stolen by "conservative"/right-wing/etc. people and turned into a bad thing? I think the idea that each person is as beautiful and unique as a snowflake is wonderful. It is a poetic expression that gives dignity to humans, and gives a useful metaphor for a way to find personal value as an individual that harmoniously exists in society.

How very California.

Language and symbolism are malleable. Like when "gay" meant happy.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 11, 2018 - 10:27pm PT
. . . using data from the U.S. Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights, a Fordham Institute study released in September demonstrates the full extent of the absentee problem. On average, teachers miss about eight school days a year due to sick and personal leave, while the average U.S. worker takes only about three and a half sick days per annum. Worse, the study shows that 28.3 percent of teachers in traditional public schools are chronically absent—defined as missing more than 10 days of school per year because of illness or personal reasons.

This statement gives a very erroneous impression.

Those who work in the field know that children are illness factories. My first few years of doing pediatrics, I was sick ALL the time with various cold viruses. It's another cost of being a teacher, NOT as is suggested, a overuse of benefits.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jan 11, 2018 - 10:28pm PT
just to reiterate[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 11, 2018 - 10:29pm PT
It's also easy to forget another aspect of teaching kids: protecting them.

You only have to read the accounts of student shootings, to hear of episode after episode of teachers blocking bullets with their bodies to save kids.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 13, 2018 - 12:12am PT
But so long as we keep making the 'cheaper is better' decision at every point along the way of school funding, we are always going to have the cheapest assed schools around. Duh.

Well said
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 13, 2018 - 08:59am PT
I'm afraid to say that no amount of money or realignment of the education system is going to fix anything, as long as parents don't teach their kids good school habits and values at an early age. Most parents are not doing that anymore.

Young children are being left to lead independent lives without supervision, and they are not developing the life skills and discipline that are necessary to succeed in any learning environment, whether it be vocational or academic.

I think SLR’s post deserves reiterating. Our society has devolved to where everything is
somebody else’s fault.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 13, 2018 - 12:30pm PT
Do you mean that his post is deflecting responsibility from teachers to parents?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 13, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
Do you mean that his post is deflecting responsibility from teachers to parents?
That is exactly what I am doing.
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Jan 16, 2018 - 10:29pm PT


Teachers see bad parents. Parents see bad teachers. Low socio-economic status is the best predictor of poor educational outcomes.




http://www.epi.org/publication/top-charts-of-2017-12-charts-that-show-the-real-problems-policies-must-tackle-not-the-made-up-ones/
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Jan 17, 2018 - 12:39am PT
Well I lost track of this thread. I hope Kingtut is reading. Dude, I was a professional scientist in the Davis Crown Gall Group and went on to teach science. My student reviews speak for themselves. I got eighteen consecutive reappointments. I was a botany and chemistry professor. I was a climbing guide and gym employee and eventually my student athletes won national championships. I taught ninth grade English and Ive published numerous times in the media. I played professionally in several bands and I teach music. I got my start in the climbing world as a tree surgeon. Then I went on to teach about 4000 climbing lessons and had up to forty four kids on my climbing team which was sponsored. We attended twelve National Championships. I was a professional microbiologist for six years, then I taught microbiology at UCDavis for about seven years while completing my Doctoral Thesis. But according to you Im uneducated and dont know anything about teaching because I come from the Professions that I teach. Well I got an emergency credential but that didnt stop me from teaching entire semesters of A/P chemistry, Art, Leadership, US History, sixth grade multiple subject, Ninth Grade English and Economics as well as special ed for severe Autism spectrum disabled K-3. I have completed master teaching with reviews and extensive collaboration and professional development. I have been trained in the most modern teaching methods. According to you Im uneducated and ignorant? Perhaps you may reconsider insulting me with presumptuous, capricious belittling comments. I walk my talk when it comes to teaching the crafts I have practiced professionally.
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Jan 17, 2018 - 01:06am PT
Consider Olympic coaches, many medalists. Julliard and Berkely school of music, Professional musicians. Harvard Lawschool, experienced lawyers and judges. UCDavis medical school, practicing physicians. Gracey academy of Brazillian Jiujitsu, Hoyce Gracey. American Conservatory Theater, Real entertainers and movie makers. Western Ballet Theater, professional dancers. MMA, The California Kid. Mine Safety and Health Administration, mining engineers and geologists. U.S. Airforce, experienced pilots. Special Forces, combat professionals. Emergency Medical Services, veteren EMTs and physicians. Cosmetology schools, real barbours. In fields where real achievement is mandatory for success, you will always find professionals who practiced their craft. In public highschools, you will find recent college graduates and career educators with little or no professional experience. But hey, I guess in our current culture, real achievement and competencey are not required to get a trophy in schools anymore. Its no wonder our hightech sector is outsourcing or importing talent from elsewhere.
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Jan 17, 2018 - 01:52am PT
Well Kingtut, after backtracking and reading your post about the "preeminence" of the UC system, I see you actually support my assertion that professionals are necessary for a good education system. The King School of Law is directed by experienced lawyers and Judges. The Medical School is taught by practicing physicians like my father (OBGYN Oncology, surgical residency). The Vet School has one of the worlds most prominent animal clinics staffed by Vet Doctors. The Biological Sciences are taught by professional researchers. My chemistry professors were chemical engineers for Unocal and Lawrence Livermore Labs. My favorite Economics professor was a world famous Harvard economist who worked in international relations. The Land Air Water Resources division where I studied graduate level soil science does highway construction engineering for Caltrans. The Plant Pathology Dept is the host dept for the USDA and administrates the international germplasm storage facility. I myself am faculty emeritus at UCDavis. So how does it feel to get called out on your statements? I hope you are not spewing racist, anarchist dribble to any of my students. They are Doctors and professors now. And as for your comments about my right wing regurgitation, I was logistics director for Whole Earth Festival for two years, Karma patroller for twenty. I was even "Den Mom." Just because I have reiterated some things that the right has said doesnt mean Im racist or ignorant. Perhaps some of the things they say are true.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 17, 2018 - 07:57am PT
chainsaw, I guarantee you won’t see a mea culpa, let alone an apology from The Special One.
If I’m wrong I guarantee you and he will see one.
gruzzy

Social climber
socal
Jan 18, 2018 - 01:17pm PT
Someone is PISSED
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 18, 2018 - 05:31pm PT
In the USA, money is God, and the value of most anything is in the money it generates. Public school and mental health are two categories that are vastly underfunded, relative to, say, military spending, because they COST money to run so the cheaper-is-better path is most always taken. Police and fire have better unions and since risk is attached to both professions, they are well funded - or else. And a lot of powerful folks make bank of military spending - in the name of keeping us safe. But in the name of keeping us smart, the dough is lacking.
Zclipper69

Trad climber
mill valley
Feb 8, 2018 - 07:39pm PT
To me it seems you all have a point in some regard or manner. All posts struck me as being backed by observable fact and are touching on meaningful issues.

From my experience in public schools, the majority of teachers have been well intentioned, often knowledgable people. However, like most restaurants, their economic model is based on serving hungry people. In the case of teachers, this means they get paid (their livelihood) depends on relaying a script to students who have no choice but to attend. Thus, like the restaurants, the teachers have a market which is locked in and bound to make sales.For teachers, breaking from the script is not encouraged. Instead they are rewarded for the good grades of their students.

Anyways, I'm just thinking while teachers may be able to and do help inspire their pupils and encourage them to learn, the prevailing paradigm does not encourage teachers to do more than read from a closely written script.

The whole issue of teaching not being a career of high social cache and teachers not being paid "enough" is also formidable and worth a great deal of thought.

Peace,
Zclipper69
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Feb 8, 2018 - 09:40pm PT
I haven't read all of this thread, so I'm probably stepping in where I shouldn't, but my wife works in administration in a school district in Washington State. The stories I hear about the entitled teachers attitudes are unbelievable. The perks they get, the paid days off, the short work year, the retirement, and the bitching are amazing.

I tutored one of my wife's grandchildren for 6th grade math and was just blown away about how they are teaching this subject, and the lack of teaching skills exhibited.

The students no linger have math textbooks; they get handouts for the subjects. The stupid ways they are teaching students to do simple things like multiplication are just .... stupid. The students no longer learn that 9 X 9 = 81 so they don't even have to think about it; there is some convoluted 'estimation' bullshit they go through then narrow the answer down with some mnemonic system..... I was incredulous. The word problems the students were given were basically undecipherable; I had to go through this poor kids stuff, figure out what the point was, then translate back to her so she could solve the 'problem'.

It reminded me of how BITD we were exposed to set theory in the 7th grade. I had been in New Zealand and returned in the middle of the term and was dumped into the math class. Sure, I figured it out, but I told myself at the time it was stupid and I was right.

The teachers don't even know what they're teaching and a lot of them are plain useless. One of the math teachers can't speak very good English and is very soft spoken; so much so that the students can't understand what he is trying to convey. He's not dumb, he's just a very poor teacher. But there he is, handicapping these students. No wonder none of them are interested in maths.

There sure is a lot of poor teaching going on. There are good ones, but they are few and far between. And take away students' phones and laptops.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Feb 8, 2018 - 10:15pm PT
It reminded me of how BITD we were exposed to set theory in the 7th grade...I told myself at the time it was stupid and I was right.

Hmmm...set theory is one of the foundational topics of mathematics, a part of mathematical reasoning and communication around the world, as well as an ongoing source of research problems.

I was fortunate enough to be introduced to set theory in the seventh grade in the US. It was at the time of the Sputnik "crisis" and suddenly the country thought investing in math and science was not simply a good idea, but an essential step in catching up to the Russians in the "space race." In the place of the mind-numbing arithmetical manipulations with no meaning and no interconnections typical of middle school math, we were given a basis for understanding what we were doing, a basis that could grow from a backyard garden to a mighty forest as one progressed in knowledge.

In part because of that set theory, I and a whole generation of scientists, mathematicians, and engineers found useful, productive, and fulfilling careers in subjects that made ever deeper and more profound sense, partially because they were based on conceptual principles rather than rote memorization.

So there you have it, a somewhat different perspective on what constitutes seventh-grade stupidity, and perhaps also a reflection on what it may or may not mean to be "right."

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Feb 9, 2018 - 05:15am PT
rgold, I understand that re set theory. My point is that for most students set theory is useless; basic math skills should be taught. It was understandable to me in the 7th grade, but stupid in the sense that I knew it was useless for most students.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 9, 2018 - 06:59am PT
Our society has devolved to where everything is
somebody else’s fault.

I think our society has devolved to where only scammers are rewarded. Kids see this. What's the point of hard work, when hard work gets you nowhere? Learning to game the system is how you get ahead. Lies and cheating get you farther than producing something useful. You don't get a comfortable retirement by saving or investing, you get ahead by skimming money off of 401Ks. Etc., etc.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Feb 9, 2018 - 07:02am PT
I have a general interest in economics, and I remember hearing from a colleague about college professors in Russia working for dirt, dirt wages--like they could do almost anything else to earn more money but stuck to the university because they loved their subjects and could spend their days with intelligent, like-minded people. So, once in the faculty lounge, I asked a senior philosophy professor what was the least he would accept to do this job--i.e. teaching undergrads at a community college in a California Central Valley town. Keep in mind that the job is basically eight months of work when you include all breaks, and there were good health bennies. The dude had a PhD, so take that for what it's worth. His answer? No less than $90k! I almost choked on my coffee but managed to keep a straight face. Seemed liked some pretty fierce entitlement syndrome to me, especially considering that EVERYONE starts these jobs at much, much, much lower pay scales. I started my own career making $36k. Of course, if the job were in San Francisco or other very expensive town, $90k is not even middle class, but when I say Central Valley, I'm not talking Davis or Sacramento.

So here's a question: What should a veteran teacher living in an affordable area get paid?

BAd
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Feb 9, 2018 - 07:41am PT
I think we're kinda screwed:

Cali just dropped its rock-bottom "high school" exit exam, one that was basically 8th--10th grade level.

https://edsource.org/2017/california-joins-trend-among-states-to-abandon-high-school-exit-exam/588640

The remedial college programs will be packed FOREVER.

BAd
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Feb 9, 2018 - 07:44am PT
rgold, I understand that re set theory. My point is that for most students set theory is useless; basic math skills should be taught. It was understandable to me in the 7th grade, but stupid in the sense that I knew it was useless for most students.

First of all, two are not mutually exclusive; I acquired all the basic math skills and then some. But I think the main problem arises when one decides that enriched essential content is "useless for most students." The problem isn't that in hindsight the observation might not be true, it is that deciding which students are going to get that enriched content pretends to understand the potential and future intellectual trajectory of very young people, condemning those sorted into the "most" category to numerical and mathematical illiteracy and possibly robbing the nation of important future contributors.

Naturally, one hopes for teachers who understand the material (this is a major reason for the failure of mathematics initiatives) and are good at helping kids master it, and it is and will be an ongoing quest to find and train appropriate candidates. Meanwhile, I think boring a few kids with ideas and concepts they end up not using later is better than stunting the potential of an unknown (and unknowable) number of young people.

Returning to a personal note, I am glad that, as we learned elements of set theory and number theory, subjects my parents did not understand and could not help me with, they did not undermine the enterprise by proclaiming it a stupid waste of time, but rather expressed pride in the fact that their child was exceeding their own knowledge, and so was privileged to contemplate wider horizons than the ones that circumscribed their lives.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 9, 2018 - 08:25am PT
Whoa dude you're sounding way Ayn Rand there.

I've worked hard. I have not scammed and cheated the system. Can't you say the same?

Ding, Ayn Rand thinks the scammers come from below, but the scammers are at the top. Bankers, Wall Street shysters, etc. In our generation, work still had some reward. It's different now. The kids see who gets ahead. I see it in my stepson's circle. Truth and honesty get you nothing. It's the scam that gets rewarded. Look no further than the White House for a great example.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 9, 2018 - 08:51am PT
Read some interesting stuff about how much money British universities get compared to ours.
It is a pittance yet by any metric they graduate students who are far better educated in a
broader sense, particularly in their international outlook. All my nieces and nephews have
sheepskins from good, or even quite good, schools yet I find their breadth of knowledge quite
lacking. The one exception is my Canadian nephew who went to the U of Ottawa. He is
tri-lingual in French and German and knows world history far better than any of his cousins.
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Feb 9, 2018 - 12:02pm PT
Hi Robert L. You have some very good questions. With respect to analyzing students prior knowlege, I think you went straight to the heart of what is important in teaching. Feeding students facts in a vacuum is not very effective. Isolated memories dont stick. They fade into the abyss they were planted in. Memory is strongest when it is associated with other established long term memory, especially if attached to archetypal memory. For this reason I encourage students to associate new ideas with archetypes they already have established. This requires understanding what those archetypes are. They are different for each person. The "Name Game" is an excellent example.

My name is Rob. So I go by Rob Rooster. The alliteration attaches the name to the letter R, a universal archetype. And the Rooster is also an archetype in peoples memory. Each student chooses an animal archetype that hopefully, but not always starts with the same letter as their name. In ten minutes a group of twelve students can each recite all the other students names. I have used this method to remember up to 150 students names in one day.

It is critical that we attach what is learned to what students already know. The concept of symantic networks is a good illustration. I find that asking alot of questions and encouraging students to explain things to me gives me insight into their thought process. It is not my way to force my thought process on my students. Rather I prefer to help them add to the thought process they already have. It is usually counterproductive to break down and replace someones thinking. Like building a house, we build additions and remodel. While I try to be a role model, often the student is the best role model for themselves. I try to understand their world view and build on that. I must admit, I have not practiced that idea very well in my latest rant on this thread. I subconsciously wanted to humiliate someone I was angry with and it shows in my "lecture." A master teacher once told me "dont butt heads with your students." We call that "the treadmill."

As for re teaching or replacing old knowlege, it is a tough subject. In climbing, when desperate, the hardest thing to do is apply techniques we learned. Often we degenerate back to our oldest instincts to thrutch and thug our way. Similarly with music and academic subjects, old habits are hard to break. It seems best to start over sometimes and build new foundations. Rather than tear down the old house and bulldoze it, perhaps we should just build a new house of a different style next door and choose to live in it. We can still visit the old one. If the new house burns down or gets moldy, we may need to move back. The same is true with learning and thought processes. They all have value.

And Robert, I am honored and proud to say that my students are teachers, professors, doctors, climbers, riggers, scientists, models, parents, soldiers; and some have followed the path of addiction. Some have problems that I regret. But I am still proud of them. And I will always love them. My students have taught me far more in life than I will ever teach any one of them. The door to my classroom is always open.

Hey Kingtut, that was very nice of you to aknowlege me after I was so belligerent. I will try to learn something from what you post when I read here. I apologize too.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 9, 2018 - 08:51pm PT
Build more prisons...Crowd control is cheaper than educating the masses...
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 10, 2018 - 07:20am PT
What is the pay comparison between a prison guard and teacher?
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Feb 10, 2018 - 08:57am PT
Average Correctional Officer Yearly Salary in New York. Correctional Officers earn a median salary of $65,540 per year. Salaries typically start from $44,060 and go up to $80,130. From https://www.sokanu.com/careers/correctional-officer/salary/new-york/.

According to the National Education Agency, New York offers the sixth best salary to beginning teachers in the nation ($41,079) and the overall best average teacher salary ($69,118). The New York State Education Department reports it as slightly higher, though — $70,518. Of course, the price of living in New York is significantly higher than in most states... From http://www.teachingdegree.org/new-york/salary/.
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Feb 10, 2018 - 10:16am PT
Enjoyed "revisiting" this thread. As a teacher myself for over 30 years,.....it's always fascinating to hear everyone's "take" on education and teaching. Lots of different ideas and thoughts on the subject. I appreciate all these posts....even the "derailed" ones. At the end of the day, and at the end of my career in education, I say thank you to those of my students who appreciate all of my hard work, love, kindness , money spent, long hours, tears, soul searching, second/third/fourth chances. Your appreciation and growth/development and accomplishments in life make me proud of you and proud to be your teacher. Those who want to point your finger at me and my fellow teachers and blame us for your problems and societies problems;....well....I wish you had me as your teacher, for I didn't teach my students to act and think that way. I taught them be kind, caring, happy, healthy, contributing, hard working, appreciative, creative, compassionate, confident, risk taking, positive, outgoing ass-kickers. We know that so many students have huge challenges at home and it's a big uphill battle to piece it all together. Many students are unsuccessful for a multitude of reasons and "bad apple" teachers is one of those reasons, but far from the main reason. I challenge everyone to really take a close look into what most teachers actually do for kids all day everyday, for not much pay and challenging work conditions. It's very amazing and inspiring! Better yet;....become and teacher, grab the tiger by the tail and do your best to make a difference and be a positive influence in a young person's life...especially in today's world which seems to be more and more difficult to navigate each year! Teaching is not for everyone, but if it's a good fit for you, I say BRAVO to you! If you like climbing, teaching gives you lots of time to climb your ass off. Thank you to my teachers that I had growing up, thank you to my fellow co-workers I taught with, and thank you to those teachers who teach my own three children. Original question of the post?...are we hiring the wrong teachers.....no. Are we paying them too little.....of course. As for the high school student who feels public education let him down and Chuck Chongo is the answer, I admire your spunk and feisty attitude;....channel that spirit and you will do amazing things and climb big mountains! (Chongo lived on my sofa for six months a year for a decade or longer in Joshua Tree and I am familiar with the teachings of Chongo...I think you are onto something....at least something worth investigating more.).

Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Feb 10, 2018 - 11:04am PT
Thanks for the post, Todd. You said it all. For those who think teaching is "easy" money, I say: Try it. The whole spectrum is difficult--from K through university, each with its own challenges. When it goes well, when the students get it, when the classroom is smokin', it's one of the best feelings ever. A great day in the classroom was as good as any great day on the crags--and I'm not being facetious. But the challenges can and do wear on you. My decision to retire was not uncomplicated. I think I'll always miss some parts of the job. Thank you for working so hard for the kids. You have my admiration.

BAd
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Feb 10, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
Build more prisons...Crowd control is cheaper than educating the masses...


And you can make the prisoners work and you don't even have to pay minimum wage.
E.L. "One"

Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
Feb 10, 2018 - 01:02pm PT
Damn, after a long absence from ST, Im dragged back in by an education post and not a climbing post. So be it....Im 65 and on Medicare now!

Im a retired middle school principal currently doing consultant work for the Charter schools here in Lancaster. I successfully talked the Charter school into building an indoor climbing wall and Im having a blast teaching P.E. using said improvement. Back on topic, let me just state my views, which have not changed.....

1. Teachers are the most underpaid workforce in America! This is more a condition of American values than anything else.
2. A large percentage of American teachers are misplaced in the profession.
3. In order to be an effective teacher and transitional figure, you must possess the following:
- a belief that every human being has a human potential they have not yet reached.
- a belief in yourself that you you can make a difference in the lives of young persons.
- an unabiding distaste for simple answers to complex problems, and a commitment to
Instilling in young persons a thirst gor knowledge and new experiences.



TEACHING IS NOT SCIENCE..IT IS ART!!

By the way.....I am Cracko
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 13, 2018 - 07:13pm PT
Nothing but respect for teachers but the bottom line is we’re not turning out very well
edifumcated kids. A lot of that can be thrown at the feet of parents who don’t create a
wholesome atmosphere, a lot at the feet of the bureaucracy, and some at the feet of teachers.

This is some disturbing stuff...
http://www.timgaiser.com/blog/why-geography-matters
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 15, 2018 - 05:22pm PT
Though Haab's heroism wasn't needed, assistant football coach Aaron Feis' was. Haab said he saw Feis running toward the gunman, and he later learned that Feis was among those killed as he tried to shield students from the shooter.
"That's Coach Feis. He wants to make sure everybody is safe before himself," Haab said.

We don't pay them enough. In every school shooting, there are these stories of teachers shielding students with their bodies.
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Feb 15, 2018 - 05:43pm PT
I'll have to say, I was a bit depressed going in to my classroom today. I've played the scenario over in my head many times. They actually recommend that teachers take aggressive action now.
Mr. Feis, holy sh!t!!!!!! Laid down his life. What an incredible thing to do, but I'm sure it never occurred to him to do anything else. It's a no-brainer, your first responsibility is to protect your kids, just as if they were your own. We should expect nothing less from our teachers.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 15, 2018 - 07:37pm PT
Primarily it's the republican congressional responsibility not under-paid teachers , to protect American citizens but they are too busy padding their off shore bank accounts with NRA bribes... I'm waiting for the day when some armed psycho walks into congress and unloads a few AR-15 clips into our upstanding republicans...
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 16, 2018 - 02:16am PT
I'm waiting for the day when some armed psycho walks into congress and unloads a few AR-15 clips into our upstanding republicans...
Me, too, brother. Me, too.
Party at my house when it does happen, y'all are invited.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Feb 16, 2018 - 02:26am PT
>>>>>>>>>?????.........
fragglerockjoe

Trad climber
space-man from outer space
Feb 19, 2018 - 10:52pm PT
I have been trying to improve my grammar skills and mentioned something about teachers earlier today. This is what I see. The language teacher speaks properly, while the physical education coach curses up a storm. The band teacher is a jerk and the the social studies teacher just incompetent. Therefore at the end of the day, who do students have to look up to as our example of how to communicate properly?
Like every profession, some teachers are there to help people learn while others are there for only a pay check. Proper evaluations of teachers to weed out incompetent ones is what's needed.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 20, 2018 - 12:28am PT
sierra ledge rat:
rottingjohnny:
I'm waiting for the day when some armed psycho walks into congress and unloads a few AR-15 clips into our upstanding republicans...
Me, too, brother. Me, too.
Party at my house when it does happen, y'all are invited.

Regardless of your partisan position, it's some pretty psycho sh|t to post up those last two comments! You two seriously should be ashamed (and probably locked up).

Look in a mirror and get a grip! Obviously the crazies are not all in "the other party."
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 20, 2018 - 05:39am PT
Wtf?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 20, 2018 - 08:21am PT
Walking to school in the 21st century:
jeff_scott

Trad climber
Lodi
Feb 20, 2018 - 09:43am PT
I admit it, all the problems in education are my fault. Don't worry I retire in 63 working days after faking it for 33 years.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 20, 2018 - 09:48am PT
How hard was it to fake it in Lodi? 😝
jeff_scott

Trad climber
Lodi
Feb 20, 2018 - 11:30am PT
Hocking June 2 for me. Turning 60 in May and retirement 3 weeks later. I get to retire a bit early thanks to NKE stocks. 26 years of teaching English as a second language and 5 or 6 years of Social Studies. With a few other subjects and special programs mixed in.

Reilly- not hard at :)


Time to work wine industry or something a bit until my kid graduates high school, old dad here.
Barbarian

climber
Feb 20, 2018 - 12:34pm PT
1. Teachers are the most underpaid workforce in America! This is more a condition of American values than anything else.
2. A large percentage of American teachers are misplaced in the profession.
3. In order to be an effective teacher and transitional figure, you must possess the following:
 a belief that every human being has a human potential they have not yet reached.
 a belief in yourself that you you can make a difference in the lives of young persons.
 an unabiding distaste for simple answers to complex problems, and a commitment to Instilling in young persons a thirst gor knowledge and new experiences.

I fully agree. I am fortunate to know a number of truly fine teachers - teachers that are sought out by their former students years after graduation. Teachers whose former students run up to them in town and take selfies. Teachers whose students thank them for making a positive contribution to their success 10, 15, 20 years after their graduation.

What makes them so valuable? They teach you what you need to know to pass the class, but also instill a life-long thirst for knowledge.
Teachers like this are worth far more than any school board would be willing to pay or could pay.

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2018 - 01:40pm PT
Walking to school in the 21st century:


uhhhh....that picture WAS "waking to school" for black people in the mid 20th century.

Maybe "walking to school" 100 years from when that image was taken, would show young people moving from their kitchen with a snack to a section of a room set up for a virtual classroom.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 20, 2018 - 02:50pm PT
uhhhh....that picture WAS "waking to school" for black people in the mid 20th century.

No kidding!?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 20, 2018 - 03:22pm PT
I was on campus at the University of Alabama during the 1963 admission of two black students. Several of us math grad students were in a class in numerical analysis when we heard a cannon go off. One of my fellow students said, "I hope they hit the son of a bitch [Wallace] this time!"

Chuckles all around.

The cannon was a relic near the ROTC building, I think.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 20, 2018 - 03:44pm PT
most of those guardsmen could have been better allocated by tasking them with shoving their rifle butts up the a*# of the parents of the white students who taunted those black kid mercilessly...

Some punishments are worse.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_lesson/2011/10/elizabeth_and_hazel_what_happened_to_the_two_girls_in_the_most_f.html
jonnyrig

climber
May 15, 2018 - 02:06pm PT
Hey Tad...
I'm out. Gave notice today.
Hiring the wrong teachers? Yeah. I don't fit.
Paying too little? Yeah, I'll be making more money in the field.
You gotta love teaching to make a career out of it. No doubt about that.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
May 15, 2018 - 02:23pm PT
RANT:

Teachers = Good people in a totally failing system.

Today's public education system is in a dwindling spiral and it will likely be utterly shattered before it gets better.

Massive incompentence at the Universities in teaching teachers.

NO ONE is in charge and we are in a stone age of learning.


All students could learn to read in vocabularies ten times what public schools now produce. Plus everyone can do math at high levels of application as needed. Creativity in arts, engineering and business skills for every single human can be at genius level (by today's standards) for everyone.

The problem is the folks in the universities are clueless. Why? The psych deparments. They think humans are like rats. Humans are not rats and never will be.


The solutions are easy:

1. In order to understand anything, you need to understand the words being used.

2. All education needs to apply to real world not fancy excersizes.

3. The curriculum for everyone should be the same, except for improvements, so that teachers can focus on making sure the students get it.

4. Each human studies and learns at their own speed. And they need to get 100% on every test before being allowed on.


I envision a world where kids can write and do advanced math by age 10. They should be starting paid work at about age 8 on a part time basis. By age 18 those who choose the PHD route would have it. Others would be executives in corporations or running their own start ups.

It can be totally done.
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Redwood City
May 15, 2018 - 02:28pm PT
^^^ can't tell if this is sarcasm/tongue in cheek commentary, I guess my public education has left me wanting in that department.

If not, one of the most rambling, incoherent posts I have read in awhile...
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
May 15, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
The problem is the folks in the universities are clueless. Why? The psych deparments. They think humans are like rats. Humans are not rats and never will be.


I suspect the problem is more like this:
1. People figured out that kids have emotions and they need to be managed with care. Child abuse is bad.
2. Parents had good-intentioned over-correction that praised kids for existing and placed few demands on them. It is challenging to be a parent and avoid child abuse while also enforcing firm boundaries and persistent attention to stuff the kids don't want to do. Most people haven't figured this out.
3. Schools towed the line as expected by the parents, again a good-intentioned over-correction that yielded: too much praise just for existing, insufficient distinction for hard work and achievement; and softening of standards until what formerly constituted a "C" performance is now treated as an "A" performance. You barely have to breathe and show up to class to get a "C" nowadays.
4. Kids raised in this environment don't have the coping skills to deal with real adversity or difficult problems that require sustained attention and effort. Further, they get resentful and use whatever power at their disposal to lash out when someone tries to enforce a standard that demands such. When you act like an old person and start a sentence with "in my day" they just think you were abused and it is not fair to expect that of people nowadays.

My wife was schooled through Ph.D. level in Italy, and went through a series of frustrations as a university professor in America. When she created her first coursework for molecular biology, she had to dump half the expected material, and then half again, to reach a level where the students would not rebel and complain. Basically, the students getting a bachelor's deree at a university with a pretty good reputation in USA are learning less than 25% of what my wife had to learn at the nearest good university in Italy. For each class, they had each student at the front in an oral exam with the professor, and all the class in the audience. The professor would hop between topics probing for weaknesses in the students' knowledge over the course of a year of material, and dig in deeper whenever the student showed any signs of faltering.

Can you imagine that happening in USA today? The teacher would be fired for being abusive to the poor children.

In the USA, teacher performance and tenure (at least at university level) is in part dependent on ratings from students, and those ratings are very tightly correlated with how easy or difficult the class is.



Of course there are plenty of exceptions, but it seems this is more the norm than the exception nowadays. I think lots of people have recognized this trend ("the millenial generation"), and more parenting effort these days is focused on positive discipline, creating boundaries, etc. while also not abusing the kids.
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
May 15, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
20 or less students per classroom
double teacher pay
there is a starting point......
(I am presently teaching 4th grade with 34 students.....)
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
May 16, 2018 - 06:36am PT
@Todd: Hey, thought you retired? Substituting?

@NutAgain: OMG, you nailed it so well. The watering down of education is a huge, huge problem. I resolved that I would hold the line when I became a teacher at the community college level. I gave F's and D's to many, many students. Many more just dropped.

Joke: How do you make a college student drop your course?

Punchline: Require home work and enforce standards.

I typically lost one third to one half of my classes. It wasn't unheard of to have single digit classes passing in my upper level courses. One of my female colleagues with similar standards was called "Hitler in a skirt" by one student! We laughed or asses off.

Pretty sad, really. But I'm out! Retired life in Bishop is bitchin'. Did a bunch of climbing in Pine Creek yesterday instead of being disappointed--again--in the lame efforts of so many of my students.

BAd
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
May 16, 2018 - 06:52am PT
(I am presently teaching 4th grade with 34 students.....)
I thought you retired too!
Must be a change from those KG'ers:-)


When this country gets serious about education I'll come back to teach from overseas. I think however that I'll be retired by then.

To understand the US educational system and how screwed up it has become look no further than the past Presidential elections.


MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 16, 2018 - 08:23am PT
Like anything else, teaching can be an art form. The artistic part of being a teacher is knowing yourself and letting whoever or whatever show up in you in the classroom. Of course, one needs to prepare a lesson plan for a day, but when you walk into the classroom, you let your agenda go and respond to what magically shows up in you and in them. This approach requires every trick, skill, and feeling that you have. The classroom becomes theatre, and for all the right reasons. Style becomes as important as content. A colleague at Cal Poly where I taught was a business law professor, and he would very often dress up in robes and even in drag to bring life to a set of issues that the Supreme Court wrestled with. As you can imagine, he was much loved and respected by students. Faculty tended to think he was frivolous even though he wrote one of the benchmark textbooks in intellectual property.

I taught for 35+ years in college and universities in three different countries. Every time I switched cultures, I had to learn new things about student cultures. That included when my students were boomers, then Gen-X, and finally Millennials. My ratings would take a hit for about 2 years until I *got* my students. Then we’d get along and have some fun.

My in-laws are primary school teachers, and their lives are highly regimented by the system’s requirements about lesson plans and monitored practices. I suspect that things have gotten that way for them because the institutions were trying to raise proficiencies of young teachers who didn’t know how to teach.

My basic argument here is that teaching is so very much more than simply communicating content.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 16, 2018 - 08:35am PT
AntiChrist’s story shows why they love Bernie Sanders - everything will be free and they’ll be able to sit on their asses.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 16, 2018 - 08:54am PT
AntiChrist’s story shows why they love Bernie Sanders - everything will be free and they’ll be able to sit on their asses.

Boy oh boy, when you get it wrong, you REILLY get it wrong! :-)

What Sanders wants is that people reap the rewards of their labors, rather than see it go to a bunch of kleptocrats at the top of the food chain.


“We want a system in which the worker shall get what he produces and the capitalist shall produce what he gets.”
— Eugene V. Debs
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 16, 2018 - 08:55am PT
My basic argument here is that teaching is so very much more than simply communicating content.

And like critical thinking, it's an ability few people have and one that likely can't be taught. The ability to truly teach is also likely disdained by larger ruling bureaucracies where deadwood can be measured in cords piled high over the student's heads.

As such, we're stuck with an economic dilemma of inadequate supply of a rare commodity.

The ability to really teach is akin to a kind of charisma. The ability to really connect with a varied and changing audience on an emotional and then technical level...



Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 16, 2018 - 10:01am PT
Ya see, Gary, how our education system has failed to learn people the difference between opinions and facts?
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
May 16, 2018 - 10:05am PT
Funny story from an econ prof re. socialism:

Prof handed back a set of exams, and there were many D's in the bunch. Unhappy faces abounded. So Prof said: "Okay, I can see that many of you are unhappy with your grades. I've got a plan for those low-scoring students to move up right now." Faces cheer up. This sounds excellent! "What I'll do is take points from the higher scoring students and distribute them to the lower performing students. That way, everyone will get a passing grade." Now the ace students were frowning. They protested. What if they worked harder? And wouldn't doing this long term lead to weaker efforts by the high performing students because their extra effort didn't benefit them? Why, yes, Jimmy. That's true. And THAT'S why socialism sucks.

BAd
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
May 16, 2018 - 10:40am PT
That is a good story; I actually did that once in a math class. The curve was based completely on the top person's total grade so 90% of that is an A, 80% is a B, etc. I purposely lost a lot of points on the last assignment
in order to lower the curve.

However I could make up an opposing "funny story" about a case where the "team leader" takes credit for everyone else's work in class,
spends all his time schmoozing the board,
and gets paid 300 times as much as anyone else, (all in subsidized stock options so his tax rate is less than everyone else's)
regardless of the long term success of the project.

No this story does not typically apply to a classroom, only to big companies. Take Jack Welsh or Carly Fiorina as examples.
miker12

Boulder climber
Us
May 16, 2018 - 10:49am PT
I think we sometimes might hire really wrong persons.
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
May 16, 2018 - 11:45am PT
One of the big problems with working in the public school system as I see it (as 27 year high school teacher), is it is probably the closest thing to a socialist system we have in our culture.

Pay is based on education and years of service, without enough regard to results in the classroom. In the last several years, I have watched a number of colleagues get their online masters degrees in non-rigorous programs, sometimes completely unrelated to what they teach just to get the pay bump. One of the most popular online masters programs was recently de-certified because of its poor quality. Nonetheless, having that degree leads to more pay, even for second-rate teachers. If you stay in the profession long enough, that's the other way to make more money, even if you're an incompetent fool. Try discussing the issue of merit pay with a union teacher, and it's a non-starter.

This is the time of year when next year's teaching schedules are handed out. The assistant principal at my school who is in charge of scheduling likes to say this time of year that, "it's not a person, it's a job." Everyone is considered so f'ing equal, that the distinction between a skilled teacher that puts in countless unpaid hours to do their best teaching in the classroom, and the teacher that is just coasting along the path of least resistance is ignored.

This is one of the most de-motivating aspects of teaching. A person that actually has high personal/professional standards that exceed the expectations of the system isn't always valued. Sometimes they are actually resented and accused of "caring too much." I have faced some aspect of this every year that I have been a teacher. It's easier to survive in this system being mediocre and not caring too much than it is to actually believe your job is to challenge students to improve themselves.
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
May 16, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
Good post WBW, as my wife is a teacher in the same vein as you have discussed and has been singled out for "caring too much" and has actually had conflict with other teachers over this very topic as well.
However, the merit pay issue is one I don't agree with you on unless it can be implemented in a reasonable and realistic way.

Where a teacher teaches significantly impacts their test scores. IMO that is the biggest failing of the merit-based proponents who want to focus on test scores as the measure of merit. They do not recognize that teachers who teach at affluent white neighborhoods with helicopter parents who actually force their kids to focus on school have a much easier time and unsurprisingly higher test scores than teachers in title 1 / low socio-economic neighborhoods.

My wife teaches in a title one school where the vast majority of her students are ELA, most living well below the poverty line, 1st or 2nd generation immigrants with home lives that would make the saltiest of us tear up to hear their stories.

Test score "merit" programs would drive her away from the schools where people like her are needed the most.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 16, 2018 - 12:50pm PT
Win hearts first, then you can win minds.

Most teachers don't much like students. You got to love them.

I don't see that sentiment expressed here much.
WBraun

climber
May 16, 2018 - 12:55pm PT
Modern education is the slaughterhouse of the soul .......
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
May 16, 2018 - 02:22pm PT
Ah Werner, your typical opinion expressed from the viewpoint of a person that just hasn't gotten out of the Valley enough to know what you're talking about. What do you know about modern education? honestly . .

A "modern" education can be exactly what a person needs to express what their soul is made of.

Roughster, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulty of defining what constitutes "merit". I teach in an affluent high school where the kids have every advantage possible, and then some. I would never claim that what measures a teacher's competence at a school like mine should be the same as a school where kids arrive each day without having breakfast.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 16, 2018 - 02:26pm PT
The worst form of ignorance is when people don't even know the basics of the opponents they attack. Someone needs a lesson in socialism that isn't taught by Fux and Fiends.

True. OK, let's get down to basics:
Socialism is worker control of the workplace. It's not people expecting free stuff, or some sort of mediocre equality. It's definitely not state ownership of production.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
May 16, 2018 - 03:44pm PT
I feel/felt your pain, wbw. I, too, however, have a problem with merit pay because I have no control of my "inputs," i.e. the students themselves. It was not uncommon to have half or more of my classes virtually refuse to read a stinkin' one page editorial that would be the starting point for a class discussion and then a major essay. Seriously. Lazy, distracted lumps just sitting there thinking they're going to college. I'm doing all the hardcore cheer leading, offering, encouraging meeting with me, one-on-one help, urging them to tutorial centers, you effin' name it. A huge, huge percentage couldn't be bothered, and, because I had standards, the D's and F's flowed like wine at a Vulgarian Gala. So how is my performance to be measured? I worked my ass off, grinding through crappy essays like a galley slave when way too many of these pieces were composed the night before. And when these students fail to improve, I am the one who has failed? Seriously? How do we measure merit? Of course, one result of such policies is that you will get teachers cheating on the exams to make their performance look better. This has in fact happened. Then there's the colleague of mine--and I'm certain not unique in the world of grade inflation and diminishing expectations--who simply lowered her standards so much that--surprise!--she's having an 85% "success" rate--way higher than anyone else in the department. I guess she's just a super genius, a real go-getter, and the rest of us are just punters who need to worship at her feet. Merit pay in education is very difficult if not impossible to implement. Like all business style analogies, it sounds good but doesn't hold up in practice.

Now there ARE things we can do to improve education, but that's for another post. In short, however, it means recruiting good teachers and giving them autonomy and support--i.e. let 'em flunk the ones who earn it. Always champion good standards.

Rant off.

BAd


PS: One quick example of a real success story at my old college--the nursing department. They had a super high success rate for students passing the board exams, BUT, and this cannot be stressed enough, the students who got in had to fight for it and demonstrate their preparation by completing a bunch of lower division courses and maintaining a certain GPA. Alas, this could not last because the program wasn't being "inclusive" enough, so standards were lowered, and the success rate of students taking the boards went down. If I can select my own students, damn it, bro, I'll show you "success"!!
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
May 16, 2018 - 05:59pm PT
The Charter-School Crusader
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/01/success-academy-charter-schools-eva-moskowitz/546554/

https://www.theatlantic.com/letters/archive/2018/02/letters-the-charter-school-crusader/551882/
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
May 17, 2018 - 09:25am PT
Interesting stuff, Splater. I admire what these hard-charging charter schools are doing. Their success is hard to deny, but we have to acknowledge the selection process, something mentioned repeatedly in the article. Parents are fighting to get their kids into these schools, which is understandable. That means, of course, that these parents really care how their children are educated and so are most likely going to make sure that the kid sticks with it, gets her work done, etc. This is manifestly not the case for way too many public school children. Conventional schools have to deal with whatever walks in the door, and that is why I have huge respect for my k--12 colleagues. Good God! The horrors my 2nd grade teacher friend relates would give most of you PTSD, but she's back in the classroom everyday, doing the heavy lifting, trying her best. At the college level, I would see the mediocre, low-performing students, but I didn't have to deal with half the crap found at lower levels. My lame students usually dropped or I dropped them after they'd missed a couple of weeks of classes, which happened pretty frequently.


BAd
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 17, 2018 - 09:51am PT
^^^^ Had that discussion with third and fourth grade teachers last week. The third grader has 30 kids and one ADHD outta control monster whose parents don’t care and who consumes the majority of her time at the expense of all the others. Obviously her administration doesn’t care either. What a sh!t show!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
May 17, 2018 - 03:46pm PT
I don’t think I have ADHD (woah look at that pretty flower, i should learn more about block chain and machine learning... did I move the clothes to the dryer? I should make some summer vacation plans... oh wait I’m posting let’s finish that), but I was an annoying student at times. I used to bring a ziplock bag to algebra class to use as a pillow on my desk- just to be inflammatory and win some points with other delinquents in my class.

That teacher would sometimes kick me out before I even walked in the classroom if he didn’t like the look on my face :)

I respect him now for it!
Chugach

Trad climber
Vermont
May 18, 2018 - 08:30am PT
Late to the discussion and husband of a former teacher, now nurse.

Teaching is the highest paying, no accountability job there is. That's exactly what the unions have bargained for over decades, so no real surprise here.

As a parent, I'd prefer the opposite, I'd rather pay teachers double with high accountability and turnover.

ExfifteenExfifteen

climber
May 18, 2018 - 12:40pm PT
Something that's crazy in this education profession...

Many brand new teachers come into the field with 5 years of education, maybe six, and they have a bachelor's degree, a teaching credential, and a master's degree.

I think that's crazy. And with that Masters they get big bumps on the salary schedule.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Lassitude 33
May 18, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
My wife was a teacher (HS and Junior College) and BadClimber's observations are dead on point to her experiences.

A student's home life and degree of parental support are certainly the best predictors of educational success. Teachers have zero control over this.

That kids with good parental support and/or better home life from poorly performing schools do well in Charter Schools should shock no one. That teachers in Public Schools who are left with dealing with everyone else have a tough job should be equally obvious.
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
May 18, 2018 - 02:22pm PT
Teaching is the highest paying, no accountability job there is.

This is one of the more clueless comments I've read on this forum in a long time, and that's saying a lot!
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
May 18, 2018 - 02:57pm PT
Charter schools are effectively re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Unlike public schools, they can filter out the "undesirables" and thus easily show better average results.

Kids who have parents with means can be driven to those charter schools and avoid all those pesky kids with learning impediments and those darn ESL kids.

Private schools get to be even choosier, and their clients are almost always in the top 15-25% of income.

Once classes become too concentrated with the undesirable poor, slow, and behaviorally challenged kids it gets really easy to show how badly these public schools are "failing" (especially if hating on public institutions was part of your pre-planned agenda anyway). Failing schools don't deserve more good money thrown after bad after all, so justification for raising taxes goes out the window. Class size goes up while teacher quality goes down. The whole process can spiral down in a self reinforcing process.

But it must be the teacher's unions and Obama's fault, right?
ExfifteenExfifteen

climber
May 18, 2018 - 08:05pm PT
Teaching is the highest paying, no accountability job there is.
This is one of the more clueless comments I've read on this forum in a long time, and that's saying a lot!

Yet, as long as you show up and do the minimum to keep your job, your pay raise is a guarantee...
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
May 19, 2018 - 11:18am PT
Well said, Moofie. It's a miserable nut to crack.

BAd
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 19, 2018 - 09:31pm PT
ExfifteenExfifteen: Yet, as long as you show up and do the minimum to keep your job, your pay raise is a guarantee...

Correct. Sometimes (sometimes) it makes sense to do it that way. There are sometimes certain things that you don’t want to attempt to measure (because it’s hard or stupid to do it that way), and other times because one gets unintended consequences.

There was this company known for efficiency and productivity. There was never any waste. All profits went to the company and it’s employees, who often made enough money running machines as to live next door to doctors and lawyers and accountants. Secretaries were found to be sitting at their typewriters pushing meaningless keys as fast as they could. (The company was Lincoln Electric.)

Sometimes the greatest reward is intrinsic, not extrinsic. It can be very difficult to find those people sometimes.
hobo_dan

Social climber
Minnesota
May 20, 2018 - 05:58am PT
It won't matter as you will always be drawing from the same pool: Our society- you're going to get every type of person. We tend to mirror where we came from.
The same as any job. You can narrow the funnel by encouraging certain skills like they do for engineering- but that might not be wise as you will end up with a bunch of clones with similar vision.
Elementary teachers tend to be really hard workers. English teachers also put in the time if their good.
The teacher has no choice on the ability or the quality of the material they work with. You take the kids you get and do your best.
Same with the families- no choice in the matter.
Some people want to paint a broad brush statement that covers all situations- but like everyone being different -every kid needs many different things. Sometimes you get it in school. sometimes not.
You try to pay enough so you don't bankrupt your state and so you can give teachers a livable wage.
Almost everyone on this forum has had some education, so they feel they are entitled to an opinion based on their experience- not too much backing up most of the ideas IMO- just words flopping around.
I just retired after 32 years in the classroom. Taught somewhere around 5000 students. It was a great career and I was good at it.
The people I would listen to are the ones who have actually been in the classroom teaching.
The value of a union is that it protects your right to an opinion without being fired if you disagree with your administration- check out Wisconsin, they don't have unions anymore and so they can trim out any dissenting votes by dismissing the teachers. The pushy people in the communities are given more voice- but does it make for a better experience for the kids?
Regarding trimming out the fat- the kids do this for you. They know if a teacher is a dud and they sink that ship. In the first five years about half of teachers get out of the profession- the kids chase them out, by making them miserable.
Very few veteran teachers are incompetent- at least at the schools I worked in Minnesota. Not to say that they didn't get tired or unmotivated-but everyone has those problems.
You can cherry pick and find the stories you want to back up your opinion.
If you're a teacher you have a responsibility to put out the best lessons you can
Parents need to provide support as best they can for their kids and to communicate with their schools.
Some of you might have children of your own, so you know that raising a kid is a pretty messy job- you do what you can.
Some of you even had parents, so you know what a pain in the ass you were and how miserable you made everyone else.
I was thinking about what the most important skill I developed over my career- it was having the ability, after a good day or a bad day to be able to get up the next day and do it again and again and again. Ultimately what I decided was that I could be most influential if I had built relationships with my students and their families.
Sorry for the ramble.


Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
May 20, 2018 - 06:37am PT
Thanks for that, Hobo Dan. Congrats and thank you for three decades of getting it done. What you say about so many teachers bailing after only five pitches--er, years--on El Cap/career is troubling. I think out of control kids are a problem as well as overly intrusive admins, and I know parents can be a serious drag, too. That triple threat pushed me into higher ed. where I thought all would be wonderful. Hah. I would have probably needed to be at some fancy pants grad school to get the kinds of classes I dreamed about, but I got them occasionally. Through dumb luck, I'd get a group of students that would be so engaging, hardworking, and fun that I couldn't wait to see them. Each day was, like, F*CK YEAH! Reading the papers was still a grind, but you felt like you were going somewhere, that the whole enterprise worked, and that you had picked the right profession. I was fortunate to have plenty of days and classes like this, and most of the time, I was grateful and happy as a community college instructor. But the dead beats, the admins, the lazy and WAY unprepared students started to really drag on me.

I remember a couple of years before retiring, I was running into a kind of existential crisis in my career. I taught in Bakersfield, which plays into this little drama. The town can be pretty bleak--worst air quality in the country, very poor community, places with rough crime, etc. And the college sat on "Panorama Drive," which did indeed have a panorama...of the oil fields of Oildale--square miles of dead grass, pipes, pumps, industrial nightmare wasteland usually overhung by a thick blanket of beige puke. Many times, you could stand in Bakersfield and not know there were mountains all around.

I'd been having a rough semester, taking on an extra class that really wasn't doing well. Very quickly it became obvious that they weren't preparing, and few participated. Asking even provocative questions was usually met with silence but for a couple of regular contributors--thank God for them! One student I really felt bad for. He was a fairly young father and totally unprepared for what I was asking of him. I don't know how he got in. He missed a lot of class, and his papers were poorly developed and loaded with grammar and punctuation mistakes, bad ones. He needed to be in a remedial course, which still would have been a struggle, but, if I recall, he'd already "passed" it! (Cue angry face for lame colleagues with low standards....) He had dreams and ambitions, wanting to get into some profession that I don't recall. He was obviously concerned about providing for his children. And there was no way in hell he was going to pass.

I stood there waiting for the bus and just felt tired of the whole game. Was I going to do this for another eight, maybe ten years as I'd considered? Something in me shifted as I stood there with students glued to their damn phones, the toxic clouds of junk simmering in the Central Valley heat. I was done. It took a couple more years to make the final moves, which, fortunately, we could do. I can only imagine how hard it is for my K-12 colleagues. And my high school English colleagues? Holy crap, Batman! That shizzle is nutz. One hundred and eighty or more students? Papers coming in every week? Talk about a soul crushing grind. It helps to be young starting out, I tell you that.

BAd
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 20, 2018 - 08:28am PT
I’ve worked in many different industries, which seemed to be useful when I got a terminal degree in business and corporate strategy. I’d say in each of those industries I worked in I would find people who became deeply disenchanted with their work. It doesn't just happen in education.

It seemes especially disheartening when folks start-out believing that their professions or jobs are noble, but later come to see that their industry / work is really mundane, with all the common objectives and values that do not contribute to what seemed to be noble causes. All of those noble causes are extrinsically motivated: changing the world, helping others be better people, solving this or that big problem, etc.

Find something that rewards you intrinsically, and you’ll have found true nobility. (Of course it might be poorly related to income.)

Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Redwood City
May 20, 2018 - 02:26pm PT
It won't matter as you will always be drawing from the same pool: Our society- you're going to get every type of person. We tend to mirror where we came from.
The same as any job. You can narrow the funnel by encouraging certain skills like they do for engineering- but that might not be wise as you will end up with a bunch of clones with similar vision.
Elementary teachers tend to be really hard workers. English teachers also put in the time if their good.
The teacher has no choice on the ability or the quality of the material they work with. You take the kids you get and do your best.
Same with the families- no choice in the matter.
Some people want to paint a broad brush statement that covers all situations- but like everyone being different -every kid needs many different things. Sometimes you get it in school. sometimes not.
You try to pay enough so you don't bankrupt your state and so you can give teachers a livable wage.
Almost everyone on this forum has had some education, so they feel they are entitled to an opinion based on their experience- not too much backing up most of the ideas IMO- just words flopping around.
I just retired after 32 years in the classroom. Taught somewhere around 5000 students. It was a great career and I was good at it.
The people I would listen to are the ones who have actually been in the classroom teaching.
The value of a union is that it protects your right to an opinion without being fired if you disagree with your administration- check out Wisconsin, they don't have unions anymore and so they can trim out any dissenting votes by dismissing the teachers. The pushy people in the communities are given more voice- but does it make for a better experience for the kids?
Regarding trimming out the fat- the kids do this for you. They know if a teacher is a dud and they sink that ship. In the first five years about half of teachers get out of the profession- the kids chase them out, by making them miserable.
Very few veteran teachers are incompetent- at least at the schools I worked in Minnesota. Not to say that they didn't get tired or unmotivated-but everyone has those problems.
You can cherry pick and find the stories you want to back up your opinion.
If you're a teacher you have a responsibility to put out the best lessons you can
Parents need to provide support as best they can for their kids and to communicate with their schools.
Some of you might have children of your own, so you know that raising a kid is a pretty messy job- you do what you can.
Some of you even had parents, so you know what a pain in the ass you were and how miserable you made everyone else.
I was thinking about what the most important skill I developed over my career- it was having the ability, after a good day or a bad day to be able to get up the next day and do it again and again and again. Ultimately what I decided was that I could be most influential if I had built relationships with my students and their families.
Sorry for the ramble.

I've been following this thread for awhile and thinking about responding, but now I don't need to say much. Hobo Dan has nailed it on so many points.

I'm in my tenth year as a teacher, 7 in kinder , 3 in third grade; public school district in the Bay Area. So much to agree with in Hobo's post but what resonates most with me is the necessity to build relationships with your students and their families.

Any yup, you get up every day and try to bring some joy and warmth into young people's lives while trying to push them a little further down the road in their education. You try to be a positive role model, watch what you say, and lead by example, keep them safe, and send them home with a smile on their face at the end of day.

And all the while you take the good and bad. You take the smattering of heart felt thank you cards from kids and parents, and you take the ridicule from people who think you're lazy, underworked, over-vacationed, and quietly you wonder how long it will be until the next mass shooting and where that's going to happen.

That's my two cents. Teaching is a great job and I'm proud to do it...

hobo_dan

Social climber
Minnesota
May 31, 2018 - 03:05pm PT
Dapper-it takes ten years to learn how to do it
Ten more to enjoy it
and ten more to figure out what you want to do next
Enjoy the next decade now that you've built a tool box and a skill set.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 1, 2018 - 07:49am PT
Me mum was a teacher so I’ve nothing but respect for them. But she was despairing about
the increasingly bureaucratized admin nazis way BITD. It must be nigh insufferable now.
La Femme waxes nostalgically about the rigid discipline and rote learning of her French
grammer schools. Boy, howdy, but those kids sure learned to write beautifully, their grammer
was excellent, and they knew their sums. What the hell happened? I know our teachers are
still inspired but our schools are turning out functionally illiterate kids who are barely able to
do basic university level chores and if they don’t go to university they’re barely employable.
The main difference seems to be that administrations are now magnitudes larger and, based
on results, magnitudes more incompetent. Oh, and what happened to

“GO SIT IN THE CORNER UNTIL YER READY TO BEHAVE!”
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 1, 2018 - 08:16am PT
Reilly,

It may not be only about the discipline of students. I’d offer that it’s also about the discipline of the system and the teachers themselves. The system does not reward academic discipline.

I taught the last required course in business schools, and it was a course that was often left until the final semester by students because it tended to be onerous. Student often had short-timers’ attitudes. If I failed a student in the course, they might not know about it until after they had walked graduation and started their jobs in another city. I would fail students, but it wouldn’t happen very often because I made it clear that it could and had happened.

I failed one student in the course at Santa Clara University because he missed a passing grade (C in required courses) by .33 of a point. I ended up meeting with the parents, my department chair, the associate dean, and finally the dean about the decision. Although everyone in administration said to me that it was my call, the experience was very hard.

I think many of us complained about teachers who passed forward failures. By the time students would get to you, you’d see that someone earlier on had not been successful—yet passed the failure forward to you. What are you supposed to do with that? Failure tends to breed more and greater failure.

I’d say that everyone from all sides has parts in the complaints about education.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 2, 2018 - 11:19am PT
I’d say that everyone from all sides has parts in the complaints about education.

Of course, but nobody is willing to accept even the merest shred of accountability, are they?
Since the whole system has obviously failed I say the admin nazis have to fall on their swords.

Last June I was particularly struck by our encounters with British grammer school field trips.
We would show up at some venue and at first I was all like “Oh, great, a load of bloody juvenile
delinquents.” But then we would watch them in their cute little uniforms actually showing some
self-discipline and paying attention to the docents! Then they would actually ask intelligent
questions which showed actual interest, not to mention an acumen I would not expect from
American high schoolers. Did I mention I am talking about third graders? They’re clearly
doing something right in Olde Blighty, and it ain’t just the uniforms. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 2, 2018 - 11:33am PT
Yes, Mr Con, but only for the admin nazis and the grammarless.
The parents will go to re-education camps, for accountability training.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jun 2, 2018 - 03:42pm PT
Reilly said:

Of course, but nobody is willing to accept even the merest shred of accountability, are they?

I tried, but it meant failing many, many students. I wanted my classes to mean something, to count. Alas, that meant having some standards that too few were prepared to meet.

BAd
jonnyrig

climber
Jun 2, 2018 - 09:04pm PT
Well, I quit because I recognized I was a sh#t teacher with students who wouldn't read the assigned material, some of whom wouldn't even buy the text.

I think I'm just gonna sit back and such the world burn, teach my kids to shoot guns, drink whiskey, climb, and take my sigh and my music to your favorite places.

Ron Anderson was right to be angry at the world, only he was angry at the wrong people. He should have been angry at everyone, not just you educated liberals.
hobo_dan

Social climber
Minnesota
Jun 3, 2018 - 05:14am PT
I had 90 + % of my students do 100% of their work. These kids grew up to be successful and exceptional people. Good school, good community, good families.
I gave them work that was fun, interesting and worthwhile. If they needed more time I gave it to them. I wanted them to learn and it didn't matter to me how long it took them to grasp an idea. We also had a retake policy.
Hard to believe this idea, but life isn't a race.
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