Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 18 of total 18 in this topic |
Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 13, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
|
I am looking to do some rappelling/tr climbing with one of my Outdoor Education classes and I was wondering if the Swiss Seat tied from 1" webbing would be a viable option?
The school is not crazy about spending a lot of money at this point since this is a new program, otherwise I would just go for some garden variety harnesses.
Anyone have any experience with the SS? I have used them for rappelling but how about for TR use? Are they safe (assuming they are properly tied)
Steve
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
|
Tens of thousands of US military personnel have used the Swiss Seat safely.
There may be other issues using it with small kids though.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
|
That's how I tie in the Boy Scouts.
A couple hundred Scouts can't be wrong.
I like the tied-in-a-loop method better than the USMC way.
|
|
Chris2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 10:02pm PT
|
You should try the Studabaker wrap...the Swiss seat tied twice.
|
|
Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
|
Real small kids needs a chest harness or they can flip upside down. I used slings for my daughter on our first couple climbs, worked out okay.
|
|
Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
|
The classic Swiss Seat is a little dicey for in-experienced climbers or rappellers to use. You can tie leg loops into a piece of 1" tubular, then use the ends wrapped around the waist many times and tied off (a "tied harness") which would be much more forgiving of pilot error. Usually about 20' of 1" tube for that.
You got all that other fancy gear like helmets and carabiners and nylon ropes? and training for yourself?
In other words, if you're {they're) not willing to spend the money and have the expertise, and do it right, probably better not to do it at all.
Ratagonia
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
|
"if you're {they're) not willing to spend the money and have the expertise, and do it right, probably better not to do it at all"
I'm glad I didn't get attitude like that when I was first starting out!
We were kids, and kids in the 70's and 80's didn't have any money.
We couldn't afford harnesses when we were n00bs, not as long as there was a cheap, albiet functional, equivalent.
We learned to make-do, and we're all better for it today.
|
|
Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
|
I have training (not certification). I can rent helmets and the rest. In theory I could even rent the harnesses too but I would like to do a self tied harness to help the students engage a little more readily and take their tasks more seriously.
My experience has shown that with a bit more on the line, they tend to pay more attention and ultimately take more away from the entire thing.
|
|
Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
|
... and having each kid tie their own harness is a good exercise in discipline and responsibility (and capability). It's good all around, except it takes time. Maybe that's good too.
Good to hear you're doing it responsibly, but on the cheap.
TJrat
|
|
adam d
climber
CA
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
|
I've climbed with students with several kinds of improvised harnesses and bowline on a coil. Sounds like this is through a formal school or program so the questions are...what age students? What school/setting? Just a one time adventure-ed style cliff day or do you have bigger/longer term goals for teaching? Your experience level? Insurance situation/program standards allow it? Is your boss a climber and what do they think? How many students? Any other instructors there? What else are you teaching that day...will this just add to learning overload or will it be a cool make use of improvised materials/learn new skills angle.
I wouldn't say don't do it, just some questions...
With a junior guide/instructor I was managing I'd be more concerned with their rescue skills in case a student flips upside down, loses control, or gets their boob/braid stuck in the device and how the guide is managing the cliff rather than can they teach a swiss seat.
Also, if you're going to be out there all day students are going to need to take their harnesses off to pee so factor in the time concerns of re-teaching/retying the harnesses for beginners.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
|
"Also, if you're going to be out there all day students are going to need to take their harnesses off to pee so factor in the time concerns of re-teaching/retying the harnesses for beginners"
That's why I like the tied-in-a-loop way better than the Marine Issue. Once tied and adjusted (which you can do at home to avoid burning Joshua Tree time) it can be put on and taken off repeadetly and never need re-adjustment.
|
|
Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
|
It will be college students and the program is meant to teach phys-ed majors about facilitation of outdoor sports (hiking, backpacking and basic climbing (i will probably throw in some team building exercises too) as well as first aid/safety and risk management.
We are pretty well equipped to do everything but the climbing and since this is a first year program I sort of have to demonstrate that I can make it work (using my own gear and rented gear) before they will be willing to buy anything.
As far as my experience, I have been teaching knots, belaying and rope safety at a gym for a couple of years and have also run similar types of basic climbing programs for the schools Outdoor club. This has all been good and fine but we are looking to expand that type of lesson to fit in a larger framework of what can be done with experiential ed.
Insurance waivers would be signed by the participants, and my boss is not a climber. Yet.
Hope that covered everything.
|
|
Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
|
I have climbed outdoors for two years, led for one, taught hiking backpacking and outdoor ed for two and a half years at the collegiate level. I am by no means an expert but I feel confident that I posses the skills to conduct this type of program. I have used Swiss seats for rappelling just not for top-roping. That was really my main issue.
That said, I am open to any advice and anything I can learn...
|
|
adam d
climber
CA
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
|
I'd say just be sure you aren't going to get burned by some University higher-up who sees pictures, reads the school's insurance policy and gets worried about hand tied webbing.
With a new university climbing program I'm guessing you don't have much written up in the way of accepted climbing protocols/risk management plans (or maybe you do). Just a cover your arse kind of situation. similar to a helmet policy...you probably have rules about when helmets need to be worn, eh? Just make sure your swami plan fits in with some sort of written document, even if it's just a blanket statement like "the instructor will select appropriate harnesses which may include..."
might be overkill for your situation, but universities, lawyers and insurance companies like written policies. Write them to your advantage rather than letting them put you in a box.
I love teaching climbing too, but too much institutional climbing (especially when it makes you make rules) makes me want to go soloing.
|
|
Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
|
Very true. Good advice. This program is still tentative- I'm still pitching it- but if it goes it wont be til the fall so I have some time to mull this stuff over and fine tune it. Worst case scenario, it gets postponed and further fine-tuned...
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
|
I'm more of a Cheddar kind of guy myself...
|
|
ryanb
climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2009 - 12:01am PT
|
Make the students buy or rent their own harnesses. Way cheaper then books for a typical college course.
|
|
Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2009 - 10:23am PT
|
I taught a spring semester technical rock climbing course for a small liberal arts college in the early 1980s. Students received academic credit for the course. We used Swiss Seats exclusively, but then we were using Goldline ropes as well. If tied correctly, they should be safe for the age group you're talking about.
Whether you are talking about Swiss Seats or Harnesses, the main thing is to check them each time before someone goes up on the wall. I see a lot of kids in instructional settings wearing their harnesses buckled correctly, but altogether too loose and low riding – saggy pants, gangsta style.
The school was very supportive. Apart from the classes on the indoor wall, we had a buildering day, and a rappelling day where we rappelled from the roof of a five-story campus building, plus field trips to outdoor crags.
The school also ran month long winter trips patterned after an Outward Bound/NOLS style experience to Big Bend National Park featuring backpacking, whitewater, technical rock climbing and solo experiences. The rock climbing was a half-day approach, so it wasn't bad that the Swiss Seats were so compact and light weight.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 18 of total 18 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!