Any Christian Pentacostals in the ST crowd?

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rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 10, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
Have you ever been healed by prayer. Ever witnessed a real miracle?

(I know, some of you - perhaps most of you - think it is all fraud and fakery from the beginning. I don't think so, but I'm curious and open to either explanation. By the way, for those not in the know, Pentecostalism is the fasted growing religion in the world, mostly in third world countries.)

I'm fascinated by the culture and the tradition - and have ancestors who were deeply into it. I also have a chronic health problem that apparently needs a miracle to overcome.

But the Pentecostal Churches I have been to all seem to be boring white lower middle class affairs with a little bad rock music, right wing political views and no Holy Spirit. The services are as dry as the Episcopalians but without the intellectual content.

Is the tradition really alive still anywhere? Maybe I have to go to Appalachia (or Korea) to find the real thing. ha

Anyway, yesterday I ordered some official "Leroy Jenkins holy water" on the internet. I'll report back here on whether it works. :)
Brunosafari

Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
Jan 10, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
This is vastly complex and volatile subject rokkermike and I probably have too much to say on it. But I'm hesitant to discuss it in a forum as it is hugely primed for misunderstanding.

ps this morning I read the David Korten econ essay you posted. Thanks for that.

Bruce
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 10, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
I do not consider myself to be a Christian or a Pentecostal, but I do believe in the healing power of God and have experienced that power. Like Bruce, I probably have too much to say and this does not appear to be the best place to say it, as the energy of flippancy tends to block any real conversation. It is still possible to have this conversation, I just think that there is too much of the spectacle in this place and so it would be difficult to have a genuine conversation.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Jan 10, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
I don't know about pentacostalism as a religion, but Leroy Jenkins looks like a fraud and a fake.

http://www.insideedition.com/news.aspx?storyId=2421
rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
Ha, Damn, you broke my faith. The holy water won't work now.

The journalist was kind of a prick too. IMHO. His skepticism is so thick he wouldn't believe his mother as to who his father is.

Actually the Hollywood movie mentioned in the news clip is what got me started thinking about this. The movie is rather favorable (I think Jenkins was involved in the production) and portrays the arson conviction as a frame up by an envious local law enforcement dude who wasn't getting a cut of the take.
crusher

climber
Santa Monica, CA
Jan 10, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
I don't know anything about it as a religion, but as with all healing I do believe that the power of one's mind can have a huge effect on the physical body. Some people channel, or explain, that power through their religious faith, some just through positive thinking per se...

I'd hesitate to dismiss outright the possibility of non-medical (conventional medical) healing but think it has more to do with one's own thought processes and determination, and probably some luck, rather than the particular tenants of one organized religion or another.

Chaz

Trad climber
Boss Angeles
Jan 10, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
I used to keep snakes.

I was arrested once for speaking in tongues although the police report called it "slurring" my words.

Maybe I'm Pentacostal and don't know it.
climbinginchico

Trad climber
Modesto, CA
Jan 11, 2009 - 12:47am PT
I've been healed by prayer. Watched in amazement as my broken foot stopped hurting and swelling disappeared less than an hour after getting crushed. I knew it was broken because I felt bones snap, and my wife (EMT) and mother in law (nurse) both wanted me to go to the doc to get it set. Truly an amazing and faith building experience. My faith will never waver, as anyone who knows my tattoos can attest.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

climber
the ground up
Jan 11, 2009 - 01:56am PT
I used to listen to some of this guy's stuff . http://tagoo.ru/search.php?for=audio&search=kenneth+copeland
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Jan 11, 2009 - 02:32am PT
I bet I know who climbinginchico is. :)
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 11, 2009 - 10:32am PT
I'm Bapticostal, but if I showed up in church right now, I would need to fill in a sticker that reads, "HI MY NAME IS _". My bible has about a half-inch of dust sitting on it right now, under a chair where I haven't cracked it in a long time. Shame on me. But I know where to find the important bits.

Don't ever underestimate the power of God, or his ability to heal if it's his will. There is a reason that the Pentecostal church is growing, because for the most part it's the real deal - Spirit-filled Believers coming together as a community to worship.

The bible is pretty clear about how to tell the kooks from the legit - it doesn't say by their gifts you shall know them, rather it says by their fruits you shall know them. So firstly you need to look for a community of people who bear the fruits - which are achieved not by human effort [which is impossible] but by abiding in the Spirit. [middle chapters of John somewhere, you know, vine and branches stuff]

Now Pentecostals are big on the manifestation of the gifts, and if you're not a Believer, you might well think they are a bunch of kooks. Of course, some of them are, there are fakes everywhere. I'm pretty sure there's something in the bible that says even fakes can appear to manifest gifts. Consider your garden variety astrologist or fortune teller, for instance. Beware the dark side, seek the truth.

But hell yeah, I believe in healing, I've seen it, I've experienced it, so has buddy above. Healing is real, and you're knocking on the right door, cuz you know what happens when you knock, right? [if you don't, look it up] When I'm walking in the Spirit, in obedience, the occasional gift comes my way. But it's been a while - my bad. I'm not exactly what you'd call a prime example of a Christian. Thank God I'm saved, sheesh.

Ultimately, mate, it's a spiritual journey between you and Buddy upstairs. Get your bible, start reading and praying, and see what he has to say to you on your own first. I can suggest some places to start if you're interested.

That's enough for here. You can write me if you want more stuff. I'm a wall doctor these days, but I used to be a bit of a bible doctor. I could use some brushing up, maybe this is a wakeup call? Going to Kentucky this aft, underground Tuesday-Wednesday.

In Him,
"Praise the Lord and Pass the Pitons" Pete
ChoochCharlie

Trad climber
South East PA
Jan 11, 2009 - 10:48am PT
Yes. Healing by God is real. Prayers do get answered, and sometimes the answer IS the one you wanted.
One does not need to be Pentecostal. I am not.

I have not been personally healed miraculously but I have witnessed it in my family and friends many times. My mom released from fibromyalgia, cancer cures in friends leaving doctors without answers.

I have had so many miraculous answers to prayer that I am left without any doubt of God's love for me.
The biggest impression was left after praying for a dying deer on the side of the road. 1 in the morning on a wooded country road, we were coming home from a movie. She had been hit by a car, broke all 4 legs. When we exited our car for a closer look she freaked and tried to run away, grinding her broken leg bones into the asphalt. It brought tears to my and my friends eyes. We got back in the car and prayed that God would have mercy and take her out of her misery. Let her die soon.
Saying amen, we just watched this poor deer, then noticed in the rear view mirror headlights approaching. The car slowed to a stop behind us, then turned on a third light, cop. He walked up to the driver door and asked my friend if we had hit her.
The cop walked over for a closer look, took out his gun, and shot her in the head.
He came back to the window and said, "I couldn't just let her suffer."

Too many people get caught up in the Power or prayer, and the Power of God.
The Peace of God is more important.
It strikes me that the people I know who have witnessed the Power of God through prayer before knowing the Peace are not changed. They see the power as something in them and miss the point. Those who have found God's Peace are changed and understand.

An old friend, many years ago was visiting my house as a teenager. He was out on the patio and found a dead bird that had flown into the picture window. Stiff and dead. Very dead.
He was on his belly staring at the dead bird the way teenagers might. He asked me if we could pray for it. Sure I replied. So we prayed for the bird to be healed. I went back inside and finished my chore and came back out a while later to find him still praying. As I approached, the bird shook his head and hopped to its feet. My friend picked up the bird and held it for several minutes and then it just flew away.
Miracle? Yes. But my friend was unfazed and continued years of poor life decisions that lead him away from Jesus and anything Godly.

Read the Gospels. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. The Bible is full of people who were healed by or witnessed the miracles of Jesus and were not changed. But the people who embraced the Peace of God, they found what they needed.
climbinginchico

Trad climber
Modesto, CA
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:26am PT
Shoot munge, you didn't even see half of 'em!

I thought about using the same un for SPC just for continuity sake but haven't lived in Chico for over 2 years.

Back to the topic at hand... God's powercan heal anyone he desires, another case-in-point:
When I was 16 I broke my neck playing soccer, clearly showed breaks on the first round of X-rays according to the radiologist. Then they had me, a terrified, paralyzed 16-year-old kid sitting in the hall all alone waiting for the MRI. Some black guy comes walking by and just after passing me turns around and asks if he can pray for me. I was raised atheist and thought "whatever. Can't hurt I guess" so I let him. Had never been to church or read a bible at this point. So I'm strapped to a backboard and totally immobilized and can't feel anything below my shoulders. So he gently lays his hands on my forehead and starts praying for me. I felt a feeling of warmth on my forehead that soon spread throughout my body and began to be able to feel tingling in my fingers and toes. He finished, smiled at me and said, "Be strong my son. God has healed you. God bless you" then he walked away, never got his name or anything. MRI showed smaller breaks than X-ray and no nerve damage. I was soon enough walking out of the hospital with no evidence of ever having broken my neck, totally healed. This was even three years before I came to know God and was saved. Don't doubt the power of prayer, God works in anyone he chooses, even the unsaved.
andanother

climber
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:43am PT
Yes, I too enjoy insulting the intelligence of others by suggesting that my delusions are real.

If I don't fully understand something, or if I don't know all the facts about a situation, or if I am affected by any slight coincidence, then I automatically attribute it to a higher power because I desperately want to be simple minded. Thinking about stuff is hard!

It's very comforting to know that God is watching over me and taking care of me. I've always been afraid to grow up. I wish I could go back to being six years old and just let my parents coddle me and make all my decisions for me. But since I can't do that, I've found that religion is essentially the same thing.
climbinginchico

Trad climber
Modesto, CA
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:47am PT
Can we please try to keep this a mature conversation?
Also, there is no need to insult someone simply because their beliefs are different than yours. We're all entitled to our opinions, but let's be mature and civil about it.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:51am PT
"I have had so many miraculous answers to prayer that I am left without any doubt of God's love for me.
The biggest impression was left after praying for a dying deer on the side of the road. 1 in the morning on a wooded country road, we were coming home from a movie. She had been hit by a car, broke all 4 legs. When we exited our car for a closer look she freaked and tried to run away, grinding her broken leg bones into the asphalt. It brought tears to my and my friends eyes. We got back in the car and prayed that God would have mercy and take her out of her misery. Let her die soon.
Saying amen, we just watched this poor deer, then noticed in the rear view mirror headlights approaching. The car slowed to a stop behind us, then turned on a third light, cop. He walked up to the driver door and asked my friend if we had hit her.
The cop walked over for a closer look, took out his gun, and shot her in the head.
He came back to the window and said, "I couldn't just let her suffer."

Someone watching this scene would have seen you crying and praying in your car while the cop took his gun and did something about it. And now you credit the prayer. You could be right that the deer died because you prayed to God and God answered your prayer using the cop as his tool. Or it could be that that the cop deserves more credit.
andanother

climber
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:54am PT
"Can we please try to keep this a mature conversation?"


Uh........
What?
This thread is about Christian Pentacostals. Pretty sure that rules out any chance of "maturity" from the start.



"Also, there is no need to insult someone simply because their beliefs are different than yours."

Yes. I know. That's the point I'm trying to make. Suggesting that these experiences are "real" is incredibly insulting to many people.

If you're going to talk sh#t, you need to expect it to come right back at you. I apologize for not taking the moral high road and laughing it off, but this IS the internet after all.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 11, 2009 - 12:35pm PT
Hi Mike:

I am both sorry and surprised to hear of this unnamed malady, as you lived a much healthier lifestyle than I did back when. I drank daily and excessively, smoked a pack a day, and ate voluminous quantities of meat, often raw. Still love the raw meat. All things you avoided then.


I can't you help out with an answer to that question but I do have a Pentecostal story. When my daughter Nina was @ 9-11 years old, she hung out with the penecostal girl who lived across the street. It was a fine family, very good folks. Nina had expressed an interested in going to church, but going to church wasn't one of the things I was interested in. My church is the outdoors, and Sunday is pretty much reserved for anywhere BUT inside of a church. Being the selfish prick that I am, I wasn't going to suffer through the church experience myself, but was wondering how to get her in when an opportunity chanced on me as if from the heavens. I was out in the yard massaging tomato plants or something and the Peneostal wife, Renee, happened by. Something I'll say right here about Renee for you readers: she was a wonderful woman. We all know those who let their Christianity be there only on Sundays and the rest of the week they're all just mean-spirited, asswipe, hypocritical, shrill bitches you can't stand to be around more than 10 seconds? That wasn't Renee. She was a true and gentle Christian to her core of the soul and I was proud and pleased to have known her. After a brief discussion on the weather etc etc, Renee asked me if I had considered taking my kids to church. I gave her the short version which left out the part about being a selfish prick, and closed with, “I sure wish there was a way she could learn about God”. Renee felt that there was, and with my approval, Nina could join them on their regular Sunday Sojurns to commun with God at the Pentecostal Church. Perfect!.

So months go by, and when Nina would come home or over Sunday dinner I'd routinely ask if she got to handle the snakes yet, but she didn't ever find that funny and didn't laugh at that one despite my near weekly attempt at getting a chuckle with it. One day I asked what they did all day and she told me. Turns out the kids missed most of the main service doing play things. But they did learn about the Lord, and they did get to speak in tongues! Speaking in tongues! Wow, now it was getting interesting! I asked her what that entailed, and she said that the folks would all stand around and open themselves up to the holy spirit, and then start babbling in some unknown language. I asked if she spoke in tongues with them and she said yes. Surprised, I asked her what that sounded like and she told me she just spoke in Japanese (she'd been in a Japanese magnet school and had been studying in Japanese all of her life at that point). Cracked me up!

2-3 years goes by and eventually they took the kids out of the play time and they only did the full service, which my daughter did not really enjoy so she stopped going. Soon thereafter, Renee got, what turned out to be fatal, brain cancer. The entire congregation came together and they laid the hands on and they all dug deep for prayers for Renee. A cure was not to be however and after @ 8-10 very slow, agonizing and painful months for Renee she finally died. I have often, while soaring high up towards the heavens on a Sunday sojourn up a cliff, wondered about this. Why didn't God make it fast and painless. I don't have an answer. They said at the funeral that God wanted her in heaven and called her home. Why God chose to make it a painful departure I have not an answer too and didn't have a chance to ask the pastor or I certainly would have, despite having been warned before the service from my wife specifically not to ask those kind of things.

So what have I've learned? Just that it's true what they say: "The lord works in mysterious ways".

Your results may vary Mike, and hope you get the cure or the fix for this thing whatever it is. Anyway, I thought you were a Buddhist?
rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
Boy, Andanother is in a fighting mood.

As to healing, If one believes in God then yes, its almost a tautology, he CAN heal anyone any time. But from a theological point of view the question strikes me, why doesn't he heal everyone? Why the discrimination and why the need for prayer from a healer. It seems to me that anyone who is suffering or dying is intrinsically in a state of prayer whether they call it that or not. Is there some formula missing (In the name of Jesus...) or what.

And why are most Pentecostals from the lower class section of society? At least in the Azusa Street days (and in South Africa and the Appalachia et al.) the congregations were poor black and white working class people. Is it possible that God loves them more? Or could it be that the intellectualizing of educated people somehow blocks the spirit.

And then there is the bigger question of why evil (or suffering) exists at all if God is all knowing, all powerful and and all merciful. The greatest theologians of the ages still haven't answered that one. And why "create tragedy" (since God is the controller), only to then fix it in limited cases.

I believe Pentecostals tend to place the blame for illness on the devil and prayer then brings God's attention back to the situation. But this gives a little too much credit to the devil for my taste and too little credit to God's infinite powers.

Just some thoughts.
And thanks for the stories.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 11, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
If one experiences a genuine miracle then one has proof of their belief and this, it would seem, makes faith irrelevant. If one has proof then one CANNOT have faith. Faith is, after all, belief without proof. Sorry believers.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 11, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
Leroy Jenkins video, my son turned me onto this, and I didn't think it was funny at all until he explained it to me, now I laugh my ass off every time I see it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU

27,000+ people left comments!

Dr. Rock

Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
Jan 11, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
Jimmy Swaggart and Jerry Lee Lewis?








Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 11, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
"As to healing, If one believes in God then yes, its almost a tautology, he CAN heal anyone any time. But from a theological point of view the question strikes me, why doesn't he heal everyone? Why the discrimination and why the need for prayer from a healer. It seems to me that anyone who is suffering or dying is intrinsically in a state of prayer whether they call it that or not. Is there some formula missing (In the name of Jesus...) or what. "

Yes, We are all Brothers and Sisters and in the image of our creator (not arms and legs, but Spirit and Love)

It's not that we are all being tormented by God until we cry out for healing and then we get it. Obviously doesn't work that way as evidenced by wonderful sincere people who aren't healed.

Pain and adversity can be our teachers, some need that to grow and transform. Additionally, we can bring bad things on ourselves through self-hatred and negative habits, patterns, and thinking.

Some say there is karma from the past as well.

In any case, my observation, and studies have validated this, is that a key to real healing is to REALLY CHANGE yourself. Stop being the person that needs pain to learn, stop being down on yourself, stop negative patterns, have a passion and inspiration to live. If you shift the whole energy in your life, you'll maybe stop being the same person with the problem. You'll automatically find the right church or people to move forward with.

Nice post Pete. Look at the Fruits to know the tree

Peace

Karl
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Jan 11, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
religion is the ultimate celebration of man's folly.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 11, 2009 - 06:46pm PT
religion is the ultimate celebration of man's folly.

Except on the rare occasion when it is the ultimate acknowledgement of mans folly.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 11, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
God may choose or not choose to heal you at any given point in your life. But you can count on the hard cold cruel fact that he (god) will eventually kill you. Apparently he's just like that.
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Jan 11, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
I always find it interesting that those people who choose not to believe have such a hard time letting those who DO believe discuss their views without butting in and ridiculing. Isn't that type of ideological brow beating the very characteristic that makes so-called "bible thumpers" so unappealing?


That said, faith and proof certainly can coexist unless you are able to prove virtually everything, ergo you are all knowing, which would make you God, and no longer needing faith. For that matter, proof is somewhat of a misnomer in that it can never be absolute proof. If you have absolute proof of your miracle then perhaps, no faith is necessary. If you are capable of absolute understanding of anything then its a good bet you are not human...and round and round it goes.

The bottom line for me is that faith does not need to be demonstrable- it is no one's responsibility to convince anyone to believe or act a given way. Faith is for personal guidance. That is why I am content to share what I believe but not get offended if others choose not to agree. Even among believers there are myriads of interpretations, and none are or ever will be absolutely correct.
Sir loin of leisure...

Trad climber
X
Jan 11, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
I just made a bowl of lucky charms miraculously disappear...they were magically godamned delicious...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 11, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
I just made a bowl of lucky charms miraculously disappear...they were magically godamned delicious...

If that's what you had for dinner then maybe you better start pray'in for the loaves and fishes.


Or at least the wine.
Sir loin of leisure...

Trad climber
X
Jan 11, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
always after me lucky charms...
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 11, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
The problematic issue with faith is that many hold the absolute “truth” of their “faith” as a necessary means and dictate for the control of other’s behavior. This is an across the board conduct of the majority of organized religions. In fact, proofs do exist. If you could demonstrate a “miracle” through a repeatable process you would have an ontological proof. Certainly, there are many examples of such proofs in the phenomenological world. Bible thumpers aren’t unappealing simply because they proselytize, they’re unappealing because they predicate their behavior toward others on a hunch. If one’s faith is that another’s beliefs are inferior then that individual becomes inferior as well. This has always been dangerous stuff.
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Jan 11, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
well i can't speak for others but i dont consider my opinions and ideas superior. i am sure that they differ from the views of many people- for good reason. people come to their own conclusions in their own ways which makes them (or expresses) who they are. Inasmuch as i take my own convictions very seriously, i can say for myself that i do not predicate my treatment of others (regardless of their belief system) on hunches. At the end of the day every person has to shave their own face so to speak.

For what it's worth I agree that organized religion has done plenty to distance others from the very ideals they claim to support. That doesn't detract from what I believe because I consider those wrong doings an unfortunate bi-product of necessary human involvement.

edit: I agree that its problematic to impose your ideals on another person based on your faith since your faith is just that-- yours. The greatest strength of that faith also limits its application.
rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
"(not arms and legs, but Spirit and Love) "

I beg to differ. :=)

DJS

Trad climber
Jan 12, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
Don't want to knock this discussion, it's a good one. But I have to counter one statement made.

By the way, for those not in the know, Pentecostalism is the fasted growing religion in the world, mostly in third world countries.)

Islam is in fact the fastest growing religion in the world.

Christianity gains more adherents per day day than Islam, however they also lose more per day than Islam.

This info is even backed up by the World Christian Database.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 12, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
"God may choose or not choose to heal you at any given point in your life. But you can count on the hard cold cruel fact that he (god) will eventually kill you. Apparently he's just like that."

I'm not convinced that this world is the best place to stay forever so I'm more concerned with dying nice than not dying. This sack of meat I'm driving around feels heavier all the time.

Miracles would be no proof of God. There are plenty of natural laws we don't know about. Since a religious person would have to assume God is behind natural laws, why would God go against God's nature by breaking them? Even Miracles probably follow some higher octave of natural law.

If you try to stay awake for 3 days, you'll need sleep pretty bad. After 80 years on this planet, most people have so much baggage they need to clear their heads and perhaps come back for another round. (even many early Christians believed in reincarnation and it makes "justice" on this planet a lot easier to comprehend.

Peace

Karl
apogee

climber
Jan 12, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
I have purposely not read most of the posts on this thread.

I don't care what religion you want to follow, just KEEP IT TO YOURSELF, and others who already share your beliefs.

If you try to proselytize your beliefs, I will rise up against you. Do not knock on my door and try to convert me. Do not hang out in public places (like post offices) and try to convert me. Keep your printed material out of public places (i.e little booklets found on benches, newstands, public phones) . Stay out of politics, and do not infuse your agenda into the political process. Stay out of other countries with your missionary efforts (unless you can help other people without trying to convert others to your religion).

If you can do this, we will get along just fine, and I will do all that I can to support your right to believe what you believe.

Isn't this what America was founded on?
apogee

climber
Jan 12, 2009 - 07:32pm PT
Wow, Skip, your response really gives the impression that a nerve has been struck by my comments. Odd, too, given that they were partially intended to express my support for you or anyone else to follow whatever religious beliefs that you hold. I will even go to bat for you, should anyone try to take that away.

Having said that, I will reiterate that I do not appreciate the efforts of any person or religion to proselytize their beliefs to others, in subtle ways such as printed material left about (this is as obnoxious as the flyers placed under windshields), knocking at my door to discuss religion (with the obvious agenda of conversion), asserting religious beliefs into the political process, etc.

As foundational as the right to free speech is to our country, so is the concept of separation of church and state. Blurring of these lines has directly created &/or contributed to much of the division, hatred, and antagonism that is present in our society.
davidji

Social climber
CA
Jan 12, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
"Have you ever been healed by prayer."

I'm not a Pentacostal, and I haven't been healed by prayer, but I've been healed by this guy before:
http://www.youangelyou.com/

Significant improvement from over the phone session, and once it was really dramatic. You can be as skeptical as you like--it doesn't require belief. I had a healthy skepticism until I experienced a dramatic result on my 1st session. I've gone back a few times for other things.

I can't tell you if it's a good idea or not. Only that it works for me.
apogee

climber
Jan 12, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
Skip-

You're right- only an idiot would expect to have any kind of rational dialogue with you in a thread about Pentecostals. I will leave you to your diatribe. Ta!
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 12, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
"It is my firm conviction that the Christian Church is the hope of the world."
Chodonkeh Johnson Ethiopian Church Planter
Hopelessness is at the root of the vast majority of the worlds ills. False Hope is at the other end of the spectrum and is no less to blame for many people's dispair or unhappiness.

Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jan 12, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
I don't care if it rains or freezes long as I got my plastic Jesus riding on the dashboard of my car.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 12, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
I'm not a Pentacostal, but Apogee, why do you think it would be crazy sounding to have a rational discussion on this? Bad personal experience or something? Pentacostals mainly? Christians in general? Just curious.
rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
My Mom always told me not to discuss religion or politics with friends. har har. I guess she was right. What a hornets nest. But as I opined on another thread. It seems we all end back where we started on these controversial topics anyway. But hell, this is Supertopo after all. At least I don't have to depend on all of you for my belay. ha Its all virtual.

DJS, figures don't lie but lairs figure. Who knows, absolute or %. The Mormons are doing pretty well too I hear. But here is at least one source to back up my statement.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm
screen search for Pentecostal. a little more than half way down page. They say 8% a year growth - and I understand that is mostly by conversion. Islam is growing but mostly through birth rates.

If you are interested in a kind of sociological view of the religion a good book is Harvey Cox's "Fire from Heaven; the Rise of Pentecostal Spirituality..."

Anyway, I don't really have any skin in this game whether fastest or not, but it is clearly appealing to many.
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Jan 12, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
Apogee, I’m honestly confused. I don’t know you and don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I’d assume you believe groups like the following have the right to assemble and speak out in favor of their beliefs…in public places.

(hope it’s ok to link to photos posted to web – will remove if it’s a problem)

http://www.dcpages.com/gallery/d/102232-2/DSC03206.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1296/1399256717_b5ad01ea9c.jpg

http://www.ilkahartmann.com/members/jbrave/phototext.nsf/images/06778DBF86D3201688256DFD006462DE/$FILE/National_march_for_Lesbian_and_Gay_Rights_07-15-1984.jpg

They all want to convince us their beliefs are truth. They all want to “convert” us in a way. I am certainly no “Pentecostal” so I’m not in your direct line of fire here…but it does seem strange to support free speech for some and not others. Sure, it may bother you to see it. That’s fair enough. You are free to be annoyed. But the “public square” is where “we” have historically gathered to collectively (or individually I suppose) express our beliefs – secular or religious. You seem to imply that this right is not universal – or that it’s ok as long as the belief being expressed doesn’t annoy you. This is not a “separation of church and state” issue…it’s simple free speech.

That pesky clause “freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble” thing kinda means people have the freedom to SAY…out LOUD even...where you might even HEAR them…things that piss you (or me) off though, eh?
…………

Shuffling off a little embarrassed to have posted to an off-topic Supertopo thread…shame on me.
jbar

Ice climber
Russia with love.
Jan 12, 2009 - 11:45pm PT
I don't talk about religion to any but those who either share mine or those who express an interest in talking/debating/or otherwise discussing beliefs.
What always confuses me is the people who profess the respect for others beliefs as long as they don't butt in on their lives are always the ones who can't leave like believers alone to a discussion without their negative comments. Hmmmmm, isn't that odd.
Example: If I tell someone they will be in my prayers because I know they share most of my beliefs and I know that is important to them there will follow NO end to comments from certain individuals slamming my belief system, telling me why theirs is better, suggesting I practice a philosophy such as yoga or taoism instead (both are great but not a religion), etc, etc, etc
If and when I read posts from others who don't share my beliefs I think you will find I try to respect their beliefs and I refrain from commenting. I don't offer negative comments and I especially wouldn't butt in and tell them how their religion/non-religion sux and try to push my belief system off on them all the while complaining about the way their religion supposedly does the same. To each his own and we are NOT all the same. If I believe in GOD does that make me a Baptist a Catholic a Methodist or maybe even an Agnostic? Why stereotype me?

Oh wait. I get it. It's because it isn't about THEM.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 13, 2009 - 01:00am PT
While I'm in the "spiritual" camp which naturally sympathizes with the various "religious" camps, it's more than understandable that nobody wants somebody else's religious beliefs turned into laws that constrain your life.

Nobody wants to be judged either, religious folks nor atheists. Sadly, there is a history of judgment from many religious folks has bugged people. I feel it's repugnant as well and resent the way an air of superiority and judgment keeps people from their own souls and makes a search for ultimate truth and meaning seem like a fools errand.

So the way I look at it. We're crazy humans and we're stuck with each other taking smack and championing our narrow views, whatever they are. Best to live and let live in the middle of this madness cause otherwise you have to live with a dry heart.

Peace

Karl
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Jan 13, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
Weschrist, so freedom of speech applies to political groups and not religious groups?

.................

As far as those fire-and-brimstone, hateful dude's you apparently run into so frequently. Annoying? Heck ya. Laughably annoying? Sometimes. Even embarrassing for some. No argument here.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 13, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
Apogee: Christ died for YOUR sins! You need to learn the love and wisdom that is His which can only be yours if you prostrate YOURSELF below the one and true Almighty God! For it is said in the holy book: “"...now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. "

Blessed are those who post and learn of Gods will....Inshah Allah.

PS, I'm just taking a left turn like everyone else to avoid answering the original question and mess in with Apogee, who didn't have to read this thread (like he said he wouldn't yuk yuk then he posts 3 times on it! ha ha !).
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 13, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
A crazy dude spouting off about aliens and making a scene would most likely be run out of there... why not Jesus freaks? What's the difference?

None, the Alien dude has a right to free speech too. You'd have to define 'making a scene' though. There are laws regarding public nuisance and disturbing the peace. If the 'Jesus freaks' just reading scripture or asking you if you want a Bible, I see no harm...walk away or tell him you're not interested.

Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 13, 2009 - 07:02pm PT
All those participating in this thread should identify whether they are adherents of a religion, and if so, which one. Church name, etc. And if not, whether atheist, agnostic, spiritualist, whatever. Exact and complete details.

(I'm not participating, just commenting.)
Gene

climber
Jan 13, 2009 - 07:30pm PT
Knuckleheads,

The FA limits the government in regards to religion, speech, assembly.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Spew away. Group hallucinations are welcome. So are people who chose to believe in God.

gm

Christian by choice.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 13, 2009 - 07:48pm PT
Anders, et al., I'm a Roman Catholic, however nowadays I pretty much just consider myself a 'general Christian'. I was married in a Lutheran church, the pastor (a chick) was pretty cool.

The whole freedom of speech clause was intended to protect controversial, dissenting speech, not polite speech. The thing about controversial speech is that you have to keep in mind that others have that same right...sometimes to disagree vehemontly. (kinda what makes the Taco nice).

edit: sonofa...I misspelled vehemently...hopefully y'all got the point.
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Jan 13, 2009 - 08:58pm PT
Knucklehead by nature...Christian by choice...dirtbag by default...

psuedo-intellectual despite best attempts to appear otherwise...

=)

cheers.
Sir loin of leisure...

Trad climber
X
Jan 13, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
wescrist,I am your father...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 13, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
"What it does is allow people to believe all sorts of things, "

I know you're too smart to actually believe that statement, you can do better than that, smartass!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 14, 2009 - 12:33am PT
rockermike, yeah...I have been healed by prayer. Smoked cigarettes ....3 1/2 packs a day....went to Calvary Chapel Church to an "After Glo" service and they prayed for me....never smoked again. (It's been 27 years.) I can also relate many miracles God has done.... Many !

In response to an email ... I don't know if there are "general Christians." I think you either believe what Jesus says in the Bible and follow what He says or you don't. That's it. Jesus Follower or yo ain't.

Jess Sayin.... : DD Lynne
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 14, 2009 - 12:41am PT
Hey Wes, yo be knowin' how to hook people. I am not hooked. I see the dude and I be talkin' to the man fo yo. : )
couchmaster

climber
Jan 14, 2009 - 10:27am PT
Blitzo

Social climber
Earth
Jan 14, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
LAME!!!!!!
the Fet

Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
Jan 14, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
The coolest Pentecostals of all.


TradIsGood

Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
Jan 14, 2009 - 07:10pm PT
You get enough of that Leroy Jenkins holy water,





















and you can put out fires with it.
You tell me if that is a miracle.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 15, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
Christianity fails. Why? Because it is a patriarchal dogma that links Judaic rigidity and introspective guilt with Hellenistic irrationality into a concoction of prejudice and fear. It assumes the failure of human reason as well as the failure of an intrinsic human morality. It requires us to believe in a personal god that finds so much joy in our redemption he commits us all to sin at our births. One could argue, as Gibbon did, that the Roman Empire was destroyed and the “dark ages” ushered in by the advent of Christianity.
The idea that a Pentecostal believer is speaking in translatable ancient tongues and not psychotic gibberish is just plain ludicrous. Christianity and its political vehicles have created havoc in Western culture for centuries. And, as Hume said so insightfully centuries ago, there is no such thing as a miracle, because miracles by their very nature are impossible.

The word, as articulated in the New Testament, is God, but the word is an invention of humanity. The closest thing to a personal god in this universe is humanity. It’s a shame we can’t act more like gods. Kindness and good will inhere naturally in the human heart; they don’t need 2000-year-old sheepherder or camel driver mythologies to make them real or active.

Consider the hundreds of world mythologies; doubtless, they can't all be true or real. Certainly, the doctrines of Islam can’t be true if the doctrines of Christianity are. It is a given that some mythologies are false and yet each is served by faith. Faith can hardly be the measure of truth because it so often serves what is false. Without faith all mythological systems fail, and if one mythology is false then it’s possible that all mythologies are false.

To hold up faith and miracles as an understanding of reality is only a weak attempt to be reconciled to the inevitable.

LW
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 15, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
" It requires us to believe in a personal god that finds so much joy in our redemption he commits us all to sin at our births.'

How do Christians address this?
rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
Damn, I laid this egg and now its turned into an ever-morphing monster. People really do have rather strong opinions on this one...


OK, for you devotees of scientism and reasonism (fundamentalists in your own right); why does reality exist? What is the source for the first sub-atomic particle? What is consciousness? Why shouldn't we kill our neighbor? (or maybe we should??)

Reason can tell us somethings about "how" things work. It can't touch the "whys". Only consciousness can do that and "reason" hasn't really gotten its head around what consciousness is yet.

So you too run into this wall of unknowing, beyond which there are no simple canned answers and no experimental proofs. But the scientific crowd - the materialistic ones who only believe in the reality of what can be touched or put under a microscope or measured, you have no answers for the why questions, and more often then not deal with this lack by simply forbidding the question. Since we can't "scientifically" answer "why" questions (according to the logic of reason) we will therefore not allow them to come to the surface.

Religious people on the other hand try to handle these questions (whether gently or roughly; open-endedly or dogmatically) but they depend on differing sources of knowledge. Faith, introspection, revelation, mysticism, the wisdom of the ancients (or some combination of the above) - call it what you will.

Who says religious people have all the answers? It sounds like the only Christians some of you know are the ones on Television. They're just straw men, easy enough to shoot down but you've accomplished little by doing so.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 15, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
Skip, that was awesome. Maybe I'll read Job again tonight, it's been a long time.

Oh yeah, speaking of Bible talk. I get these 2 Jehovah's Witness people that always stop at my house evey other week or so. It used to be be an old lady who was the sweetest thing you ever met. I used to tell her I'm going camping in the mountains and climbing and she was kinda fascinated. Anyway, now they have the JW climber guy that comes around, he's pretty hard-core too, does a lot of High Sierra stuff that we chat about.

I have explained to them that I understand they want converts and they ain't getting one, I'm a proud Catholic (or general Christian). Anyway I did explain that if they want to come by and talk for a few minutes I'd open the door and have a chat. We even disagree on some stuff slightly, but I enjoy talking to them about the Bible.

When I say 'general Christian' I mean that I still consider myself an Old Testament fire/brimestone Catholic but I don't dismiss most Christians, just the opposite. After all a Catholic is a Christian, no? I just have problems with the ones who say if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you're condemned. They include Catholics in this group and I find that weird because Catholics do accept Jesus as the son of God, as the manifestation of God on Earth. How could he not be Lord Savior?

Maybe someone can answer this. And what about Jews? Are they condemned too? I just don't by it.

Maybe next time Jehovah Climber shows up I'll throw this at him.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 15, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
Hey Skip, I will have to read over what you wrote a bit closer, But if you look at my question, hopefully you will see that it isn't asking why God allows sin, it is asking why God ( according to the Christians ) condemns all men because of original sin. Many people get ticked off at Christianity because it claims that one man and woman sinned and therefore all were doomed to suffer. They do not see this as fair and I agree with them.

My own understanding is that the story of Genesis as about what we all have done, which is turn away from the teacher, in Genesis defined as God, either in fear of retribution or in shame because of pride. We therefore chose separation. Because God gave us dominion in this plane of existence, then God honored our choice and is allowing us to experience what separation is like, which is basically suffering.

Jesus talks about "I and my father are one" and he talks about a house being divided against itself can not stand. These are teachings on the need to become one with God to overcome suffering, including the suffering of death, which is what Jesus' life is about.

The problem with how Christians view original sin is that it makes everyone suffer for what someone else did. This to me sounds like a capricious and not so nice God.

I personally believe that the story in Genesis is a general story telling the tale of what each of us has chosen. The understanding that has been lost in Christianity which would help them understand this is the realization of reincarnation.

Reincarnation was an accepted teaching in Christianity in the early years and was taken out somewhere in the ( can't remember exactly ) 3rd or 4th century.

I highly recommend two books.

"I Am a thinking Christian" and "I Love Jesus, I Hate Christianity" by Kim Michaels. It would be wise to realize that Kim does not truly hate Christianity, he doesn't hate. He just titled it provocatively to get people to read it. It is very logical in its teachings. I hope that you will consider it. I too was very angry with God for a long time, because of my own health problems. These books are helping me overcome that anger.

As for sin, I do not believe that God created sin. He gave us free will, which is what Genesis calls dominion. In order to truly experience free will, we have to have the opportunity to chose to go against the laws of the universe, ie sin. Yet one of those laws is that we will reap what we sow. Science would say that everything has an equal and opposite reaction. Meaning that everything comes back on us. So the warnings about sin just mean that if you go against the laws of the universe, then it will eventually bite you in the rear. A human example of this is gravity. If you do not respect gravity, then it can and will bite you in the rear.

Peace
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 15, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
Christianity holds that not only man is cursed by original sin but also nature itself. That nature is cursed by the actions of man seems unreasonable at best. The real horror of nature is its dictate that life must feed upon life in order to continue, that this is a result of human disobedience seems ludicrous as well.

The above interpretation of Job is pure sophistry. Job suffered because of a bet between God and Satan as to the efficacy of Job's love for God. When Job has the gall to ask why such disaster was visited upon him the Lord's response is simply who are you to ask? The nature of God's reaction is then shrouded in a "justifiable" mystery. This is simply a kind of etiological myth designed to explain why bad things happen to good people. Sin is simply a natural realization of empathy we feel toward those we have somehow offended. Our sense of sin is based on a natural inclination to pity and our sense of unity with other human sufferers.

In Christian doctrine the world is condemned in every aspect due to the sin of Adam. To believe that the fundamental laws of nature were changed to accommodate the Lord's judgement of humanity begs credulity. This is a myth that is at least 2500 years old. Good grief, isn't it time to move on.
shutupandclimb

climber
So. Cal..............d00d
Jan 15, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
Why does God heal everything but broken bones? It seems to me that
the healing that does take place are always those that can't be seen or evidenced instantly. What about mass scarring, broken legs, cleft palates, or even better yet, why doesn't God grow back limbs that have been traumatically amputated?


I believe in God, but I think God is something different then is described in the bible. the bible, by the way, is a heavily edited political document that was assembled at the council of Nicea in 325 A.D. and many of the most relevant books were omitted and claimed to be heretical by the council. If one digs a little they will find that this is the case.

As a side note, the overseer of the council was emperor Constantine, who was also the
leader of the Roman (Catholic) church. He had heavy political
interest in developing a document to control the masses.
Therefore, many of the most individually empowering passages and books of the early church were excluded and an attempt was even made to remove those documents from the historical record.

Any one that believes in God should be very grateful for the Dead Sea Scrolls and the gnostic gospels. It surprises me that modern Christians will even call those documents heretical. This in spite of the fact that they were written during the time of Jesus by those closest to him, not generations later based on oral tradition.

It is always surprising that nothing in the Archeological record
supports much of the modern bible and the only proof that a Christian can give of the bibles validity is the bible itself.
I.E. "How do I know this is real?" Answer: "because it says in Hebrews blah blah blah that it is"

There is , however, much power in prayer especially en masse in that it is the focused love and energy of many minds and souls directed towards a certain outcome. It is not understood how it works, but studies do indicate that this act affects outcomes.

Anyhow, there is my two cents, I invite debate, especially from modern Christians...........Love and Blessings !




bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 15, 2009 - 07:59pm PT
Nice post, Janet. Not hokey at all. Well, maybe to Wes, but whatever...it takes time for some people.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 15, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
If I come before god after I die, I would hold up the cancerous arm of a child and demand what is the meaning of this? Your god has a lot of explaining to do.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 15, 2009 - 08:51pm PT
Paul, I wouldn't wait to ask God questions til after you die when you can ask him now. :) Sometimes the dialogue takes awhile, even a long while, but if you continue it and really talk to him and listen, you will get an answer.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 15, 2009 - 09:31pm PT
Weschrist, he's real.
WBraun

climber
Jan 15, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
wes -- "I can assure you my experience in religious matters over the last 30 years far exceeds your life-time experience in both diversity and depth of exploration."

So you've been pouring water over the leaves & branches of the tree for 30 years.

Pour water on the leaves of the tree or branches of the tree it is simply waste of time.

If you pour water on the root then the effect of pouring water is distributed.

John Moosie, nice post up thread ....
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 15, 2009 - 09:53pm PT
If you believe in the Christian God then you believe in the necessary righteousness of suffering. Ultimately your God is responsible for all the suffering experienced by humanity. It is his universe, his cosmos and suffering is his invention. I think reasonable folks would choose not to believe in such a creature.
WBraun

climber
Jan 15, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
No

You are the cause of your own suffering along with your actions that can also cause suffering to others.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 15, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
I think reasonable folks would choose not to believe in such a creature

There's your problem, you don't see the plan and the design, just the selfish desire to remove all pain that is the life struggle that maks you a true man/woman...
shutupandclimb

climber
So. Cal..............d00d
Jan 15, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
Skipt,

Thanks for the thoughtful and informed response. I learned a thing or two.

It sounds as if you worship at an open and progressive church. That would mean a lot to me. My experience is that most Christians are completely closed to any debate on the Bible and you are a refreshing voice.

I think we are on the same page in that there is a God that is centered in love, but maybe we disagree about some details.

But....Who Cares! and thanks.
shutupandclimb

climber
So. Cal..............d00d
Jan 15, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
So, can anyone tell me why the God capable of miraculous healing won't regrow limbs?

I think it's a legit question.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 15, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
I think you need to go back and read Job. Upthread, skippy made a pretty good case for it.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 15, 2009 - 10:48pm PT
Orthodox Christianity declares that God is all knowing and all powerful, if that's the case then all suffering is his responsibility and not yours. In Christian dogma all experience is the creation of God. The so called gift of free will is predicated on the existence of evil that only God could have created. Christianity gives us solipsism after solipsism each dissolving into incoherence.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 15, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
Oh, by the way, there's a good hockey game on right now, so reading Job again, like I intended, will wait. Does that make me bad in God's eyes, Paul?

Paul, you like Wes, lack faith. I cannot help you find it. But at least you ask the initial questions. Talking to people like Skip and others here, more versed in the Bible than I, may be able to guide you to seek understanding God's intentions and His plan.

Next time the JW show up at your house, talk to them, question them...just don't be a dick, they're nice people for the most part.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 15, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
Faith is an antidote to anxiety and is born of self- delusion and narcissism. To think that the god of this vast universe takes a special interest in the miraculous healing of any individual is the pinnacle of self-important egotism.
rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
"Faith is an antidote to anxiety born of self-delusion and narcissism."

Perfect answer, but I don't think that is what you meant to say. ha

In my tradition - Bengali Hinduism (when I'm not hanging with the Pentecostals)- we understand we suffer anxiety due to false identification with this physical body. We are eternal spirit souls revolving from life to life through millions of bodies shedding them like old clothes only to receive a new model - but ever trying to taste the pleasures of physical life and ever frustrated that our inner selves are never fed the real food of life. The self delusion is this false identification, and narcissism is the attachment with one's false ego. Couldn't have put it better myself.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 15, 2009 - 11:30pm PT
That is a unique take, Mike. Sounds like a Buddhist describing Christianity. I guess that's why the 5 major religions are, in their core, so similar.
WBraun

climber
Jan 16, 2009 - 12:13am PT
Paul -- "God is all knowing and all powerful, if that's the case then all suffering is his responsibility."

Paul, what kind of egomaniac are you? Your father told do not kill and you do anyways. Then you're punished and blame your suffering on your father and say he's responsible for that.

You're nuts.

Hey rockermike --- good one.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 12:22am PT
You should read my posts a little more carefully.

Look, faith is an egotistical self delusion that allows the individual to feel reconciled to his/her fate. The idea that one can be certain of what happens after we die whether it's reincarnation, heavenly bliss or eternity with 72 virgins is ridiculous. The idea that a personal god takes an interest in our lives is disproved by the remarkable regularity with which we suffer and die. Get real.

Dogma refers to the tenets of a belief system. If you don't believe me look it up.
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
Jan 16, 2009 - 12:24am PT
or one virgin that is 72. The Koran is a little ambiguous on that.
WBraun

climber
Jan 16, 2009 - 12:24am PT
So ,,,,,

That's your DOGMA.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 12:27am PT
You're nuts?
Great argument, I'll have to use it myself sometime. Get real.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 16, 2009 - 12:27am PT
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 12:38am PT
It just dawned on me that a number of people on this thread either don't know how to read or simply don't bother. Try reading the posts as it makes for a much more cogent discussion.
WBraun

climber
Jan 16, 2009 - 12:44am PT
How would you know?

You seem to know everything with certainty and at the same time telling people there is no certainty.

You are playing GOD. But! You're a poser.
rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2009 - 12:48am PT
I understood your meaning Paul, I was just making a little fun of the ambiguity of the way you worded your idea. Perhaps you could have more clearly said "faith is merely self-delusion and narcissism which stems from anxiety" or something to that effect.

To paraphrase some old Marxist: "atheism is the opiate of the sinner", or something like that. Faith is the first and primary victim of sin. And once faith is damaged then sin takes off like a snowball rolling down the Eiger (tie in to climbing there - ha)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 16, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
Wes, I think you missed the point...probably intentionally.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
Most of the major religions begin with the premise that this world is not right, for Christians the world is condemned to sin or for Buddhism we must escape from existence in a world of sorrows. Perhaps the world just "is" and we should embrace it as best we can.

It's interesting that Christians like Wbraun and others are so ready to resort to name calling when the discussion gets beyond them. Sad. Too bad people can't simply address the issues.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 16, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
Paul, Werner was addressing the issue. You are posing as God because you claim to know. You act like you know that there is no God and you act this way because religion is so flawed. Yet religion is simply mans attempt to know God. Religion just reflects the lack of knowledge of man, not whether there is a God or not.

Werner is asking you if you really know. He is just doing it in climber talk by trying to get you to see the bullshit that you create. Bullshit is bullshit whether it is created by religions, or by material scientist. The trick is to get past the bullsh#t, but one can not do this until one sees that one does not necessarily know. Thus he called you a poser.

Do you know if God exist or not, and if so, how do you know? Picking apart the flaws in religion does not disprove the existence of God. It just show that mans understanding of God is often flawed.
rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
back to the original topic; here are two worthwhile vids if you want to get a feel for Pentecostals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR4o7DrAg8Q&feature=related
(my great grandfather is in one of those photos)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vd_C5KX_lk&NR=1
not quite your typical Anglican service.
One of the lines "...we left those dead churches..."
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
That's ridiculous. I don't claim to know. No proof exists as to whether or not there is a god. But to extrapolate from that that people are cured by miracles or that Christianity is the one true religion is nonsense. I was pointing out the many inconsistencies in logic supported by Christian believers. Name calling is name calling no matter what your vocation, avocation or hobby.
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
Jan 16, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
Hey Paul.... Werner is not christian. not at all. He worships the blue people. I think he's a Krishnavite.

Myself... my studies are in Hindu Tantrism (Rajanaka). But I accept that supreme consciousness (god to the non-duelists) is all within the relative world. Some make this world out to be absolute. But the Veda's say otherwise.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
Why would god heal us miraculously only to kill us later? Sorry Christians but your arguments make little sense. If god is a personal god concerned with the affairs of humanity why would he allow disasters both natural and human to occur? There is a remarkable film of a 5 month old child dying of small pox, a time lapse progression of the disease; this film is at least strong evidence perhaps absolute proof that a personal god doesn't 'exist.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 16, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
"1) Individuals who are certain they experience implausible occurrences and are not compelled by proof to the contrary are considered delusional and/or mentally ill."

what proof to the contrary? No one has disproved my experiences. No one has disproved that Jesus died and came back to life. So what proof are you talking about?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
weschrist you think well. The Voltaire quote says it all.
Christians and Muslims must be confronted with the illogic of their beliefs. Absolutist belief systems predicated on faith stand in the way of human progress.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
How true. I think that puts a cap on it.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 16, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
"NO evidence of ANYONE being brought back to life after 3 days."

There is evidence. You just see it as a fairy tale. Just because you see it this way, does not make your opinion anymore valid then mine. I live my life based on my opinion, as you live yours. In my opinion, as long as you are not hurting others, then you should be allowed to continue. I know that much evil has been done in the name of God and this evil should be stopped. This does not mean that God is evil. It means that at times mans understanding of God can be based on evil.

You think that I am delusional for believing that Jesus arose from the dead, or that God exist. I think that you are delusional for not believing. Thankfully neither of us can force the other into some form of treatment as we both appear to subscribe to the notion that as long as we are not hurting others, then we should be left to live as we want.


As for your argument that not enough people have come back to life to make this provable as a true event. There was a time that no one could prove that atoms existed, yet they still did. Theories about them were scoffed at.

Should I give up my belief about God and the veracity of what Jesus taught because you scoff? Nope.... my belief isn't based on the fact that millions of others believe. Most Christians do not believe as I do, as evidenced by how many here argue with me. My belief is based on repeatable experience. If you want this same experience, then you can have, though it is not easily come by. If you don't, then don't. That is your choice and I respect that choice.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
There's just as much evidence that Orpheus went into Hades and returned; there's just as much evidence that Dionysus was born from the thigh of Zeus. There are eyewitness accounts of Apollo walking on the earth. There are lots of folks whose faith assures them that Muhammad was an inspired prophet and they should wear a bomb into a crowded restaurant and kill people for him. Remember it was FAITH in Allah that brought down the World Trade Center. Absolute faith is an absolute disaster.
WBraun

climber
Jan 16, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
roehl

Why don't you just take your so called faith that God doesn't exist and be done with it.

You're not saying anything what so ever except spouting a lot of useless mental speculations.

You don't know, so why even waste your breath.

Oh because you want everyone else to BELIEVE and have FAITH in you .....
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
Braun
I said before no one can know if god does or does not exist. But we can be reasonably sure it's foolish to build a convoluted belief system based on something we can never know!
WBraun

climber
Jan 16, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
roehl -- "I said before no one can know if god does or does not exist."

That .... is pure bullsh'it. But. It holds true only for you.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
Prove the existence of god. You might even win a prize. There's plenty of room here. Do it.
Your so sure of yourself. Talk about BS.
the Fet

Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
Jan 16, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
"as long as we are not hurting others, then we should be left to live as we want."

I think a lot of the animosity against religion is that some practitioners do not let other live their lives as they want.

Some want to make sure other people's kids' recite "under God" in public classrooms.

Some want to nullify same-sex marriages that have already taken place.

Some want religous beliefs required for holding public office.

Some want to scare people with a made up concept of Hell into following their beliefs.

The thing that bothers me most about some religous people is that they have substituted faith and being told what is right and wrong for reason and figuring out what is right and wrong.
WBraun

climber
Jan 16, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
roehl

I can do it easy. But it is not the proper place on this forum and it's not done by just talking and writing stupid arguments here.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
Good then why not write a smart argument. Philosophers and theologians have been trying for centuries; nobody has ever succeeded.
Chris2

Trad climber
Jan 16, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
A childs laughter, a cool breeze, Yosemite...all proof enough for me.









"To each is own." I find the belief in a higher power more believable than evolution.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
A child's death, hurricane Katrina, south central L.A. What do these prove?
Chris2

Trad climber
Jan 16, 2009 - 05:55pm PT
Not interested in a debate on the topic. Just felt like chiming in (east LA is worse, never seems to get the same "reputation" as south central).
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
Thousands of years ago, nobody could prove Gamma rays existed, but they so.
Thousands of years ago, the state of science was very primitive.

People had a different mindset in ancient history. Their interpretations of the world of Spirit is bound to be expressed in terms appropriate to the culture (and even politics of the time)

Any student of science and physiology should be aware the world is not as we see it, God or no God. The entire planet is so diffuse that in a black hole it would collapse into a space smaller than a baseball.

The world in a Baseball!!

Jump to philosophy and prove to me that anything exists outside your own Being. Every bit of data you have about the world is processed through your mind. You really can't prove everything is not just a persistent dream. In a dream, you imagine all these other people (that you created) that apparently have their own lives and some of them might even try to do you harm (funny, it's our dream and yet bad things can happen)

Who is to say the world isn't your dream, or the dream of God? If so, how would the characters in a dream go about proving they are being dreamed up?

take a minute to think about it.

Who is to say the world isn't your dream, or the dream of God? If so, how would the characters in a dream go about proving they are being dreamed up?

Personally, I encourage anyone to question dogma and investigate the spiritual traditions in their respective religions that emphasize contemplative disciplines to experience truth within first hand

Peace

karl






bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 16, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
"A child's death, hurricane Katrina, south central L.A. What do these prove? "

The world is a very dynamic place.
asioux

Trad climber
Rancho Cucamonga
Jan 16, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
Christ died on the cross for your sins. No one comes to the father except through me (Christ) Read John 3:16 Accept Christ as your savior follow God commandments read Gods word everyday and pray, the bible is our owners manuel to eternal life in heaven. Remember God loves everybody! AF
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
Joyce's "proof" we are more than dreams and dreamers.....
* Ineluctable modality of the visible: at least that if no more, thought
through my eyes. Signatures of all things I am here to read, seaspawn and
seawrack, the nearing tide, that rusty boot. Snotgreen, bluesilver, rust:
coloured signs. Limits of the diaphane. But he adds: in bodies. Then he was
aware of them bodies before of them coloured. How? By knocking his
sconce against them, sure. Go easy. Bald he was and a millionaire, maestro
di color che sanno. Limit of the diaphane in. Why in? Diaphane,
adiaphane. If you can put your five fingers through it it is a gate, if not a
door. Shut your eyes and see.
Stephen closed his eyes to hear his boots crush crackling wrack and
shells. You are walking through it howsomever. I am, a stride at a time. A
very short space of time through very short times of space. Five, six: the
Nacheinander. Exactly: and that is the ineluctable modality of the audible.
Open your eyes. No. Jesus! If I fell over a cliff that beetles o'er his base, fell
through the Nebeneinander ineluctably! I am getting on nicely in the dark.
My ash sword hangs at my side. Tap with it: they do. My two feet in his
boots are at the ends of his legs, nebeneinander. Sounds solid: made by the
mallet of Los demiurgos. Am I walking into eternity along Sandymount
strand? Crush, crack, crick, crick. Wild sea money. Dominie Deasy kens
them a'.

Won't you come to Sandymount,
Madeline the mare?

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
Thanks Skip.

Gosh Paul, that 'proof' makes the prose of the old testament seems pretty accessible by comparison. I'm not convinced!

Peace

Karl
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
Paul R. et al, this is a difficult thread to respond to because there are so many different "takes" and I wish I could respond to all, but there are just too many.

I just want to say again that I Know God is real. I have met His Son Jesus and He has changed my life, He even speaks to me. Because of this I am a Jesus follower and (to the best of my ability and His strength) a doer of His Word.

I know God is real because I have met Him. He is my Friend. He has also intervened in my life and saved me from self destruction when I was in my early 20's. He showed me He had a plan for my life and also did a miracle and cured me from smoking 3 1/2 packs of cigarettes a day when I was desperate and asked for help.

He has given me, my family and friends and even strangers I have met, many miracles of Love and Grace. He has been my best friend for 37 years. This is no religion, no denomination...this is a very deep and special Friendship.

He chose to say no to one of my "biggest" prayers. I asked God to heal my husband last year. He didn't and Dan died. The past year has been an incredible time for Lynnie. Thankfully for the first time in my life I have kept a journal of almost everyday for over a year. I can still say that my Father loves me and cares for me.

Look beyond the blue sky. There is so much you cannot see. You don't see the wind, yet it is a force in our lives and you all believe wind exists. You need an electron microscope to see the things your eye cannot. But these tiny things are real and existed even when you did not know about them or could not see them.

There are many things in our lives we cannot see. Yet we believe in them because they impact our lives. So God. There is an invisible world out there. And God Is real and in it and despite what happens, He is in Control.

If you could understand all you would be God. I think most of us know that there is much of life we can't understand. If you do not care about the idea of God, why do so many respond to God Threads? Why the vehemence, the rejection, the accusations if God is not really real or something we need to think about?

I am not a Bible Apologist like more gifted people. I am a pragmatist. I believe in it if it works. If it works it's real. God works.....Right now I am experiencing an incredibly tough, tough time in my life. Having processed Dan's death I now have some pretty heavy life issues to deal with. I have no idea how they will turn out. I have poured it out to Jesus and scarily (because I am only human) am trying to trust Him that He will take care of Lynnie.

Faith,,,,, is believing God despite your circumstance. Mine at the moment are impossible and need a miracle. One will happen. It may not be what I what. But it will be the best for Lynnie and it will continue to give me the peace and joy that is growing in my life....

Even tho I miss Dan Incredibly much....God has been there for me. I have met many of you over the past year. You have all been a Super Blessing to me and for me.....the entire climbing community. Thank you !!!

Finally, my friend Jesus is coming again soon to this planet. Look up and be prepared. Love and Peace, Lynnie

micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
I find it interesting that a fair number of climbers here and elsewhere tend to consider themselves athiest or agnostic, not to say fairly irritable with Christianity. I've actually never seen a larger population of this sort except back in med school in the postgrad science/phd arena. Anybody want to take a stab why?
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
That is a great and accurate question micronut. I'm thinking but have no answer. : ) Lynne

Edit: I have thought about this and would hazard a guess that @ 87.5 % of the population here are atheist or agnostic....unless there are alot of Christian "Lurkers".
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
Yeah it is kind of dense but no more so than Revelation. It's a fascinating monologue that if understood, studied, is really quite enlightening, It's an argument against sophistry and relativism in the same way the dialogue between Socrates and Protagoras was. The idea that all experience is locked in the mind of the individual is defeated and I think that's important to our understanding.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
Wow Skip, don't know what to say. It's just my life right now. Like I said...and MEAN....climbers have been a Huge part of my life this past year and have been a Considerable Blessing to me....and God will take care of All of you for takin' care of Lynnie. Love, Peace and Joy ya'll. : D
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:11pm PT
Lynne, I think you're right about the spiritual lurkers here of all faiths.

They don't want to be shouted down by the likes of Paul and Wes.

Lurkers, speak up!!! You don't have to debate, just say you're out there.

God bless ya, Lynne!
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
I'm not surprised that the outdoor community has a fair amount of "self invented/hinduish/buddistish/naturalist" followers. Those belief systems kind of make sense to people and if not taken too seriously allow a fairly noncommital approach to life and the afterlife. I think most climber/paddler/mountain types resonate with the whole......the world is here for my enjoyment, leave no trace, get in tune with nature's vibe and don't be a bad person thing.

Something about absolute Truth scares most people though. Full accountability for one's actions and beliefs is a bit intimidating to all of us. Not to mention the idea that somebody loves us regardless of all of our fault. Throw in the fact that we are born flawed and in need of help and you get a lot of people just trying to invent something they can deal with.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
Well said, Micro. Do you guys still have that chat room?
jbar

Ice climber
Russia with love.
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
What is most alarming to me, again, is how those who profess a hatred for all things Christian (nay religious) becasue of religions alleged practice of forcing its belief systems on those who chose not to believe are the very ones busting in on another individual's question in the attempt to force their position upon his conscience. I can tell you I have stuck my proboscus in a number of religions and philosophies over the years though an expert on any I am not. I can only believe the way I believe for my own personal reasons therefore I gladly discuss and debate with the willing but never force my beliefs on others. I do find the vast majority of those who refudiate other religions claiming the knowledge to do so were never ones to study the religion in hopes of finding enlightenment but rather only to look for the things they do not like. Most, if not all, Americans who claim to be "spiritual" such as Buddhist, et al I find are people who have simply taken what they like from a belief system and discarded what they felt did not apply.

Edit: I was writing while micronut was posting. He hit the nail on the head.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
Nah Bluering, it kinda fell apart, but we still get together regularly. We were just a few guys from different worldviews trying to look hard at politics from a religious viewpoint.

"It is impossible to separate one's faith from one's politic."
-Thomas Jefferson

Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
I have made a similar argument up thread, but since I have been lurking of recently, I'll gladly be counted among the believers. As far as the proof of God is concerned, I have and always will feel that it is moot because God can't be proven or dis-proved. If we could break an omnipotent being down to the point that he would fit inside the construct of human understanding- neatly and succinctly at that, it would basically be an admission that what you called God was just a fabrication.

Proof or absolute proof (which can be demonstrated) is and never has been the name of the game for believers. It is about personal believe and an inner knowledge of the Truth for yourself, as Lynne alluded to. While that knowledge is absolute and unshakable, it is also incapable of being "boxed up" and mass distributed IE organized religion.

I have a slightly less nebulous conception of God than Karl but the idea he expresses about our limited knowledge being tantamount to non-existence definitely rings true. There are many things beyond our grasp to explain- whether it be to confirm or deny them. I am perfectly comfortable with that.

Just my .02 ...
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
Weschrist and I go back to when I first entered the Taco...and he has been kind to me. I think we are connecting...that does not of course mean agreeing. It's difficult when you have not met someone "in the real" sometimes to understand the understated.
I must admit we did get off to a rocky start, but Weschrist has been a scholar and a "zesty" (in verbage of course) gentleman after we "figured" out who we were and what we were trying to convey.

Am enjoying the discourse with Paul R. People who think, participate and have questions are a blessing to the world at large.

Well, unless duty calls "thread-wise" lynnie is yawnnnn tired and will say howdy tomorrow. (Gotta work all weekend : ) )

Joy to the World...ALL the Boys and Girls...we need Joy, say ya'!

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
Something about absolute Truth scares most people though. Full accountability for one's actions and beliefs is a bit intimidating to all of us. Not to mention the idea that somebody loves us regardless of all of our fault. Throw in the fact that we are born flawed and in need of help and you get a lot of people just trying to invent something they can deal with.

This captures most of it. I find it both amusing and poignant that some who propound to be seekers of "absolute Truth" can make a religion of antireligion.



micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
It's been said,

"The single greatest reason for Atheism in America today is Christians, who profess Jesus Christ with their lips, then walk out the door and deny Him with their actions."

Ouch.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
Well said, Dwain, my brother.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
Cosmic and TGT, Nice !

Bluey, give John Boy a really big hug from his super topo auntie. : D can't wait to see him and his Mom in the real someday !

Edit: yep, micronut...but Our Ouch would never do that ...Big Smiles, : DD Lynnie
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
Paul writes

"The idea that all experience is locked in the mind of the individual is defeated and I think that's important to our understanding."

I'm a bit dense Paul. Perhaps you can explain in plainer English how, when all our perceptions and thoughts are processed by the mind (including the perception that we are touching or doing anything) that this same mind can prove anything outside of itself?

The hand might fit through a gate but not a door, but the gamma ray passes through both without a hitch. Even in a dream, the dream objects seem comparatively real to other dream objects.

John says God created the world from God's word. What are words? Vibrating Energy structured by information. (kind of like the way Science describes the world.)

Peace

Karl
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
I would never say art does not exist because most people are bad at it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
John begins with " in the beginning was the Logos"

The KJV reads as "the Word" but it more properly but incompletely translates from the original as "the Reason"
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 16, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
Skip, its from the beginning of a song by DC Talk. Not a very good song, actually, but it was hinting to the fact that many modern day athiests see the "hipocricy" of Christians behaving badly as a very good reason not to believe in God. He's hinting to the fact that more Christians would do well to bear witness to the good news with their actions rather than empty words.

Not saying that poorly behaving Christians means God doesn't exist, just that many Atheists use this as a shallow attempt to "prove" such.




Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 17, 2009 - 12:04am PT
Wait, Paul, I have one more thing to say if yo' still out there....and I do appreciate your imput.

All our ST debates need to be just that, "debated". So ignore finger pointing and discourse that does not apply to the topic of discussion. No animosity should be present in a debate.

This is what made it happen for me. I had heard about God all my life. It wasn't happenin' for me. He was not there. No one could prove Him to me.

I finally met Him as a Friend...or maybe a paramedic. When I needed help I looked and listened to those around me and what they offered. Someone finally offered the Bible, God's manual...His words to how to live life and meet Him and become His Child. I really really looked and listened. Then I said I'll believe but yo gotta keep up your end too, Dude in the Sky....and all that you promise in your Word. He said He would, and I believed him. 30Plus years later...and it is good.

LRL
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 17, 2009 - 12:26am PT
TGT writes

"John begins with " in the beginning was the Logos"

The KJV reads as "the Word" but it more properly but incompletely translates from the original as "the Reason"

The word Logos, with its roots in Greek Philosophy, has had a spectrum of meanings throughout it's use. Hard to pin down. From the inward intention underlying the speech act, to something like reason, to divine wisdom.

They didn't have very scientific analogies to use in their cosmologies in the year 100.

So the world could be created from God's intention (like a dream) or from Vibrating energy (which could be dream stuff as well)

It's worth noting that in much of Indian Philosophy, the universe originates from the primordial vibration of the "sound" Om.

Remarkable to me that many of these ancient traditions should consider the world so much more ephemerally (and vibrationally) than it would appear to the senses.

Peace

Karl
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 17, 2009 - 01:13am PT
Interesting thought line Karl. This doesn't even take into account the possibility/probability that God moves in and exists in multiple dimentions. The thought of the multidimensionality of God is hard to wrap your brain around. We lowly little humanfolk love to think in our shallow little three maybe four dimensions.

Things like suffering of the poor, the beginning and end of the universe....the afterlife, all take on new meanings when we realize that many, many if not nearly infinite dimensions exist outside of our human experience.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 17, 2009 - 02:21am PT
Hi Micronut

I don't see any reason why many dimensions couldn't all lie within the consciousness of a supreme being.

Angels would seem to exist in another dimension. What's the difference between an Angel and an Alien?

More food for thought. God or no God, just the physical dimension of this universe is so vast that it takes billions of years to traverse at the speed of light. The likelihood that our particular form, density, and manifestation of life is only a small cross-section of staggering possibilities. We're living in carbon-based meat suits, but who is to say the essence of life couldn't exist embodied in a myriad of other ways.

No matter how you look at it, the more you look at it, we are surrounded by mystery upon mystery. We are comforted thinking that we know so much, but that has been a common conceit for decades. What would we know after 50,000 years more of technology and evolution. Look how much is changed in just the last 3,000.

What of civilizations that have been doing this for a million years? The ones that have destroyed themselves must be a different league.

Peace

Karl
SammyLee2

Trad climber
Memphis, TN
Jan 17, 2009 - 09:51am PT
I have read all 204 posts on this. Gee Whiz, and finally compelled to say something.

The fact is, I don't KNOW if God exists or not. Something created this universe (and me) but is that some devine being that loves me? Kinda not feeling the love right now. Maybe it was something else, a not-god, that did the creating.

Karl, really, a true Baba as Skipt says, and I have hit the rock for several days in the valley. One day he said, "You are not your mind". I still puzzle over this, though I am now convienced that he is at least 1% correct.

My best friend, as a child, was a Jehovha's Wittness. I was raised as a Methodist. I was invited to many JW events that no non-beliver normally would have been. I have seen with my own eye, the selection of the 144,000.

Later, as an adult, when the JW's came to my house, I would invite them in and talk. If I have the time, I still do. As a rule, I do not believe in a God that cares. Yet I still respect those that do. They may be right and I may be wrong.

I do not expect anyone to accept what I believe nor do I expect anyone to change my beliefs. Thank God (or whatever) for that freedom. It is worthy of disscussion.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 17, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
Well it's a worthy question Sammy.

What would it mean for God to Care? Is there a divine being that feels all the pain in the world and suffers from that? Would that be caring?

Or does the Supreme see everything in it's perfection (that's still invisible to most of us) and whose Love is on such an unfathomable dimension that it's beyond our conception and expectation, stuck as we are in meat suits in a very heavy world.

It's harder for us to Judge God than it would be for a 2 year old to judge the actions of it's parents. Why does Daddy leave every day? Why can't I do what I want?

The Sun shines down on this world and provides the whole energy for life. If you get to know about Sunlight, you can use it to grow food, stay warm, and many other things. If you don't understand sunlight, you can get burned. Does the Sun care?

I'm not making a strict analogy here. Whatever created this universe has unfathomable intelligence.

It could be that, like Jesus said, as we judge others we are judged. Our own consciousness, in the image of God, has the power to punish us or reward us through our own inner process. That's why I try to be compassionate and understanding. Good for others, good for me, and life is happy and tends to go well (even when it would seem otherwise to an outside observer)

Culture, politics and time distort the practice of every religion and obscure our dim image of unimaginable God. You can bet Christianity doesn't resemble what Jesus and the disciples were up to, at least in terms of outside practices. That's why the truth is within, and change is of the Heart.

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 17, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
Food for thought and discussion

rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2009 - 01:40am PT
GIGO
DanaB

climber
Jan 18, 2009 - 07:55am PT
How does prayer cure cancer?
Why doesn't it do so consistently and reliably?
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 18, 2009 - 08:03am PT
I think the argument would be that it transcends, Cancer.


"Vibrational" hence the Vibes...
DanaB

climber
Jan 18, 2009 - 08:21am PT
I don't understand.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 01:19pm PT
Dr. F wrote

"Then I became a skeptic, realized that life is just the same without god, nothing changed as I foresake the hypocrisy of all religions. "

I'd agree with half your post. I do believe God doesn't need us to believe in God, that the quality of our heart can be fine with or without God. (but that if we embrace a lot of Love in our hearts, the inkling of God's presence becomes almost too strong to ignore)

It's just that regardless of your assessment of human needs based on some theoretical image of "God", that God exists and you can't think God away by ignoring it, anymore than you can think the atoms in your body away, or the air in the environment.

So thinking or not thinking of God doesn't prove much about God, except perhaps to show that he's not some uptight hater in the sky with his panties in a bunch ready to punish those who don't stroke his ego.

Our existence is a mystery. Best to alway keep an openness to explore the possibilities of truth and fulfillment outside, and inside, the boxes of Religion, Mysticism, Science, and the rest.

"But of course its all in your head, which is OK" How do we know this? I find that when I change myself, that everything in life changes around me, and that when people in my life change themselves, that everything changes around them.

Of course people respond when we drop the "it's all about me" routine and shine some love, but what I'm talking about is more butterfly effect and would challenge the boundary of most definitions of mind, much less "head"

peace

Karl
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
Weschrist's attempt to explain Christian beliefs is interestingly thought out, but I think flawed and without much actual substance.

First off, Wes, I'd be interested to know if you came up with this through your own study and thought or if it came from another source. Not that it matters. Just curious.

A few questions....
1. Premise 1. Considered by who?

2. And based on Webster's definition of delusional (a: something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary ; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs) I think you would have a difficult time persuading any educated person to believe that faith in a true and omnipotent God is either provably False or Psychotic from a medical or other definition.

3. If you cant prove Christians are False or Psychotic, the Delusional label can't be used in your argument.

4. Since your argument is based on the concept of Delusion....the rest isn't really worth discussing.

I don't mind sharing my beliefs here, and I really enjoy discussing this stuff in any forum....I'd be interested what you think of these two pretty basic questions.


1. Where do you think you will go when you die?
2. Why do you think you are here on this Earth?

Not that any of us can prove these things, I'm just interested in how to keep this dialogue going and think this is a pretty important place to start.
Here's a couple nice wintry photos to liven up all this text....



paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 19, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
"We sacrifice the intellect to God."
-- Ignatius Loyola

"Reason is the Devil's harlot, who can do nought but slander and harm whatever God says."
-- Martin Luther

"Where questions of religion are concerned, people are guilty of every possible dishonesty and intellectual misdemeanor."
-- Sigmund Freud

"The various forms of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people to be equally true, by the philosopher as equally false, and by the magistrate as equally useful."
-- Edward Gibbon

"To such heights of evil are men driven by religion."
-- Lucretius

"Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him. But all the woman-children that hath not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourself. "
-- YHWH (Numbers)


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 01:36pm PT
All Religion and Spirituality has a certain element that could be dangerous, but is somewhat unavoidable:

The Spiritual world is more subtle than the physical world that can be measured by science at this time. Thus, it's outside of physical verification.

To simply cross the denial created by our physical experience of the world (which is also demonstrably an illusion as science describes reality) we have to work on subjective levels and use faith and suspension of disbelief to even consider that things might be different than they seem.

Any big willingness to see the world differently without empirical proof runs the risk of brainwashing/suggestiveness/manipulation, and you're bound to get some bathwater with your baby.

Nobody said it was easy, but ask yourself, how many happy and fulfilled people do you know in life? (and we're all friends with a bunch of fun hogs)

I look around and don't see many really peaceful and fulfilled people outside of the ones I know who have made a point of Spirituality (not dogmatic fundamentalism)

From this, it seems to me that whether there is an afterlife or not, you better take care of your mental and emotional state if you want to be happy. If you do, you might just run into a higher truth without having made that the main point.

PEace

Karl
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
Weschrist, what did you think of my attempt at rebuttal to your Delusion Proof? Any thoughts?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 19, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
"(As to religion)...Fear is the basis of the whole thing--fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and, therefore, it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand."

-- Bertrand Russell


"A good world needs knowledge, kindliness and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence."

-- Bertrand Russell
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
Paul, those quotes you keep posting aren't much of a case against the Christianity you seem to be pretty against. Are these types of things what keep you from believing in God? They kind of seem like complaints more than aguments in a case against Faith.

You ever heard of a guy named Lee Strobel? Or a book called Evidence that Demands a Verdict? Good read for athiests and Christians and anybody in between. He was a PhD who set out to discredit the Bible and its beliefs with sound scientific/logic premise. Spent ten years digging into the validity of the Christian Faith.

He was looking to shed light on C.S. Lewis's postulate that Jesus was either,
1. A Liar
2. A Lunatic
3. Lord (God Himself)

Jesus had(s) to be one of those three things based on what He claimed. Which one do you think he was?
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
DR,

Which "Science" and "Churches" are you talking about.

Do you have a scientific study or two you'd be able to quote or post a link to?

All Churches? Or just the ones used in the study?

Those are pretty big statements. Some validity would be helpful to your stance here.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
"You can't think the atoms in your body away or the air in the environment BECAUSE THE HAVE A DISTINCT EXISTENCE HERE IN THE REAL WORLD THAT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN."

You can't think atoms or air away because they exist on their own. Atoms have been "proven" very recently in human history and even air has been a mystery until the past couple hundred years.

All the horrible things people say about the abuses of religion have some truth in them.

The same could be said for science, which has given us the tools to foul our environment on a mass scale, and the weapons that could well obliterate our life on this planet before any "judgment day" gets a chance.

The real problem is the twisted illusion humans have assumed as their very identity, our egoic distortion, whether it's a religious person or atheist. Corrupts the application of science and religion and politics, regardless of the system.

PEace

Karl
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 19, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
"The daughters of the high priest Anius changed whatever they chose into wheat, wine or oil. Athalida, daughter of Mercury, was resuscitated several times. Aesculapius resuscitated Hippolytus. Hercules dragged Acestis back from death. Heres returned to the world after passing a fortnight in hell. The parents of Romulus and Remus were a god and a Vestal Virgin. The Palladium fell from heaven in the city of Troy. The hair of Bernice became a constellation ... Give me the name of one people among whom incredible prodigies were not performed, especially when few knew how to read and write."

-- Voltaire, "Miracles and Idolatry"
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
Dude, nice reply. I gotta run to lunch for an hour or so, but I'm coming back to "argue" the flipside of some of your points. I still think the argument for delusionality is pretty light.

Dr. F, I think the majority of christian and non christian historians believe Jesus Christ from Nazareth was a real man. He is a historical figure and his existence has been well documented outside of the Bible. I rarely quote the Bible when dealing with those who don't think of it as a valid source of information. The Ceasars of the time through Nero and Augustine all have writings that speak of what a ruckus this "Jesus guy" was creating. I'll look up some text and get back to you on this. Even those who don't like him or believe he was God in carnate believed he walked the earth.
Purdy photo before lunch. Alpine tarn/lake on the way to Matterhorn peak's West Coulior.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
By the way Wes,

Christians who are doing it right are NOT Homophobic. Christ is all about love and grace at the same time as Truth and obedience.

Poorly behaving members of the Church who claim Christianity are to blame for this and it really bums me out. Its sad that the Christian Church has gotten to this point based on the lame actions of some of those who most loudly profess the faith. I would argue that the most vocal of those homophobics who call themselves Christians, are actually not, and would be shocked to be considered so.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 19, 2009 - 03:03pm PT
" Ask yourself the question: how moral is the following? I am told of a human sacrifice that took place two thousand years ago, without my wishing it and in circumstances so ghastly that had I been present and in possession of any influence, I would have been duty-bound to try and stop it. In consequence of this murder, my own manifold sins are forgiven me, and I may enjoy everlasting life."

-- Chris Hitchens

Now this is a contradiction that "deserves a verdict."
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 19, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
Hi Dana,

You asked,

"How does prayer cure cancer?
Why doesn't it do so consistently and reliably?'

I have been studying this for a few years and have found some answers that work for me. What I am going to attempt is a simple explanation of what it takes books and books to truly explain, so please forgive me if I leave something out that might be important.

I will start with a basic idea that science has in the last hundred years started to understand and which spiritualist have been explaining for thousands of years. Everything is made out of energy. We are energy. The Earth is energy.

Then I wish to give you a premise that I can not explain with words but for the sake of this argument you will need to take on faith. That is that God is Love and Love is the highest expression of energy. The Truth that God is Love, can be demonstrated, but it can not be proved with words, so I will leave you to either accept or dismiss this premise.

From this all life is created. It is created out of energy. There is the highest form of energy, pure love and there are lower and lower forms of energy descending on a scale down to such energies as anger and hatred, fear and pride.

To create the world, the material world, the world of form, the energy of Love must be stepped down. From this we can see that everything is made from Love.

Yet how can cancer exist if everything is Love?

This is a very basic explanation. It would take too long to explain the reasons, so I will just give you the outline.

You are an extension of God. You are made out of God.
You are made in God's image. This means that you have the power to create. You have free will which allows you to create and you have imagination. These are the basics of what God is.

Originally you were not given full knowledge of Life because you were meant to grow in Knowledge. Discovery is a great Joy and God wished to allow portions of itself, meaning us, to discover Life.

Yet all of these gifts have risks. Free will means that you can choose pain and suffering. You may not understand that you chose pain and suffering, but you did. An example is a person who chooses to smoke. They either don't know that it will cause them difficulties, or they choose to ignore the difficulties.

One of the first big choices humans made was to experience separation from God. God had to allow us this choice if He/She was to truly give us free choice, because if this choice was not allowed, then we wouldn't really have free choice and would thus really only be robots. Free will is truly a gift, yet when one makes mistakes one can begin to think that it wasn't such a great gift. So you have to ask yourself what you would rather be, a robot, or a Being with free will/ free choice.

This then leads to what the components of your Being are. You have four main bodies.

1. An identity body which is where your beliefs about yourself reside.
2. A thought body, which is where your thoughts reside.
3. An emotional body, and
4. Your material body.

You are a being through which higher spiritual energy is always flowing. Yet this energy is colored by each of our 4 lower bodies. The high spiritual energy flows first into your belief body, it is colored by the beliefs that you have, then it flows into your thought body and it colored by your thoughts, and so on until it is projected into the material world in the form of your physical existence.

Your being was originally created as pure, so that the final picture of your physical appearance was a pure form of God. Yet because we had free will, we could and did choose to take on different experiences which created different beliefs then what God had originally chosen for us. One such experience as was stated above was separation from God. This experience of separation, this choice, then clouds everything we experience in this world. Because God is Love, pure unconditional Love, and we chose to separate from this Love, we ultimately chose to experience suffering. ( I apologize for how short and incomplete this answer is, but it would takes numerous books to explain this fully )

So this brings us to what prayer is and why is seems to work sometimes and not other times. Prayer is an invocation of higher energy. It is meant to infuse your Being with higher energy that can override any lower energy. Science does a good job of explaining higher energy and how it affects lower vibrations.

Yet because of free will, this higher energy can not truly enter your Being unless you truly choose it. To choose it, one must understand the deepest meanings of this. One must understand that their subconscious mind plays a role in ones choice. You may consciously choose a higher way, but if you subconscious mind is still holding onto lower desires, then the higher energy can not enter your Being and heal you.

To go back to the example of smoking. Your conscious mind may realize that smoking is hurting you, yet in your subconscious there may be the belief that you do not deserve anything better, so it will hold onto the desire to smoke because it just simply can't accept that there is something better and that it deserves this.

The higher energy is of God and because God gave you free choice, then God will not go against your free choice, at least for a time, and thus you will not receive the healing energy, even though consciously you prayed for it.

So what is required of you to receive healing? What is required of you is that you have learned the lessons that you are meant to learn about some experience you chose, such as separation, that you chose differently, ie oneness. That you have resolved all beliefs that stem from this, such as one is not worthy of healing, or that there are not better things in life, thus freeing the higher energy to do its work. The Bible calls a Being who has different beliefs in its subconscious and conscious minds a house divided against itself.

So simply put, some have learned their lessons and have resolved their inner issues and can receive what spiritualist call the gift of the holy spirit, one of which is healing, and thus they will be healed.

And some have not, and thus they will not be healed.

God does not arbitrarily heal some and not others. There is a reason and one must find that reason to receive a true healing. There is one other point to understand. Because everything is energy, one who is skilled in the use of energy can invoke higher energy and produce the appearance of healing, but if the underlaying cause is not fixed, then the problem will return again and again, sometimes in different forms, but with the same root and this is why some healings that one sees only last for a short time. Lasting healing results form finding the root cause. As the Bible says, 'The Truth shall set you Free". If you are not free, then you do not have the highest Truth.

One further thing to understand is that some spiritually inclined people have chosen to take on certain states of consciousness which result in certain forms of illness so that they can work through that consciousness thus showing the way to the rest of the world as to how to overcome. Jesus did this for the consciousness of death, which everyone on this planet has accepted into their being to some extent or another. He showed that death is not real, and thus he showed us the way to overcome the consciousness of death.

There is of course much more to know to fully understand the issues of healing. I apologize again for the length of this post. I have a bookshelf of books on this subject and still there is more to know. haha. I hope that this helps you understand.

John

micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
I agree Weschrist, those who attempt to "accomplish "God's work" while turning a blind eye to the meat of the teachings" are not only missing the point, they, in most religions, will face some pretty harsh consequence.

Christianity is centrally about learning to be less selfish.
At the core of Christianity is humility, being aware that the sin of seeking self is the fastest way to be separated from God.

So many self professed Christians are spinning their wheels trying to "better themselves" that they miss the meat of the teaching. They often end up unhappy and broken after spending a life in false optimism, tragically leaving behind them a wake of people they have offended or embittered.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 19, 2009 - 04:21pm PT
No offense and nothing personal to JM but I find this kind of thing so depressing. We could create such a great world if we could just abandon the slave morality of our superstition. Our planet, our existence are sublime treasures; we should celebrate them without the fear and the superstitions that so often lead to disaster. It was, after all, the disciples of love that gave us the exquisite tortures of the Inquisition.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
Paul, I assume you are referring to the cruxifixion of Jesus. A human sacrifice? mmmm....yeah I suppose. It seems like you are relating it to something like the Aztec practices. I assure you, it was very different.

Is there a problem in one man sacrificing himself for something or someone? Isn't that bravery or possibly heroic? The guy running up the North Stariwell of Tower Two on 9/11? He didn't plan the act or fly the plane. Not what I'd casually call a human sacrifice to Allah.

Jesus had his out to stop it when Pilate asked him if he wanted to be set free. Even if you don't buy the whole faith, Jesus chose to die for his reason, which He stated was for the redemption of mankind.

Do you think he was a liar, a lunatic, or something else? I'm interested in what you think.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 19, 2009 - 04:29pm PT
"It was, after all, the disciples of love that gave us the exquisite tortures of the Inquisition."

I am sorry, but this is not true. The teachings of the disciples were taken and twisted. Twisted by the very thing that twists everything in this world, and that is the carnal mind. The mind of the anti Christ. Jesus never taught war. He taught to love your enemies.

If by disciples you mean those who claim to follow Jesus, then one only has to read Revelations to see that most who claim to follow Jesus have lost their first Love. They are the blind following the blind leaders. Jesus did not teach war. He taught the antidote to war, which is Love.

Do not make the mistake of believing that religion defines God. It is merely mans attempt to define God, yet it is often clouded by the ego/ the carnal mind and many are blind and follow blind leaders. Wide is the way that leads to death, but narrow is the way that leads to life and few there are that find it.

Simply because people make mistakes in their understanding of God, does not make God wrong. It means that peoples understanding is wrong.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 19, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
Isn't the execution of an innocent human being murder ( Thou shalt not murder)? Wouldn't you as a faithful believer be duty bound to stop such an event? At the same time if you stopped said murder you'd be preventing your own and the worlds salvation. Do you see the solipsistic nature of Christianity here? Augustine did in his oxymoron "O felix Culpa." Found in Romans 11:32 where Paul tells us God condemns humanity that they might be redeemed.
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 19, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
Dr F, Christianity has been called, uncharitably, "The Death Cult." While I think that that harshes a lot of sincere, well meaning people, it' hard to refute the logic, for me, anyway.

-you really never knew what 'MOT' stood for? Did you never read Rear Abbey, while growing up?

I have a lot of common ground with Moosie. It strikes me somewhat differently, and my conclusions are not always the same, as his. But that we're both looking at a lot of the same things, albeit in a different idiom, could be presumptive of me, but it might mean that we will meet on a common level of Dante's Circles some 'day'. Worse people to spend eternity playing hackey-Sack with...
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 19, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
" Why would him dying forgive mine or anyones sins. "

Once again, do not confuse religion with Truth. His death did not forgive your sins, though he did carry some of the karma of this world so that it would be easier for people to see. His death and return to life showed that death is not ultimately real. It is real for your body, but not your spirit.

As for why he had to die. The spirit of life did not kill him. The spirit of death, the anti Christ did. So people of Love did not kill him. People of fear did. If there were only people of Love on the planet, then there would be no reason for him to die because people who truly embody Love know that death is not real for the spirit and they know that they are spirits, thus death is not real for them.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 19, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
Hey, d'you know the Anti Christ quit drinking whisky?
know why?





















...because It made him mean.
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 19, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
The anti-christ quit drinking Whiskey?
Quite!
I hear he has a 30 day chip. And is more efficacious, in his life's work...
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 19, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
whoops! I quit.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
Here's my source for saying Jesus had a choice. Lets assume he was fully human.

Luke 23
1Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. 2And they began to accuse him, saying, "We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ,[a] a king."

3So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

His out would have been to simply say "My bad, I'm not really a King, I'm just a nice dude tryin' to make a difference."

Sorry to use the Bible as my sole source here, but I don't really know much about the extrabiblical accounts of the crucifixions done that day. As a historical text/doccument, the Bible has pretty strong sauce, whether or not you belive its contents, the authenticity as a text is pretty hard to argue.

micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
Paul, I think you are taking the "Thou shalt not Kill" commandment out of context. Christ came to rid the current thought that you could know God and get to heaven by obeying the 10 Commandments, or any part of the given law for that matter.

He came to say that obeying the Ten Commandments is impossible, cause He said if you have done any of these in your heart, you have as good as done them in real life. You think about adultry, you've done it. Thought about coveting your neighbors stuff. As good as going to his garage and taking it.

He came to set people free from the Law.

I can't say what I would've done that day, but knowing what I know now, I would not have tried to prevent his death. And I wouldn't have been breaking the law for my actions.

Current day.....I'd do my best to take a bullet for my fellow man or an innocent victim if it came down to it. But I've always wanted to be a hero. I loved Braveheart and BlackHawk Down and I think secret service guys rock.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
Yeah Dr. F, the wheels were definitely in motion, the people wanted blood, but they may have been ok with getting Barrabus. You know mob mentality.

13Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people, 14and said to them, "You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. 15Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing to deserve death. 16Therefore, I will punish him and then release him."[c]

18With one voice they cried out, "Away with this man! Release Barabbas to us!" 19(Barabbas had been thrown into prison for an insurrection in the city, and for murder.)

20Wanting to release Jesus, Pilate appealed to them again. 21But they kept shouting, "Crucify him! Crucify him!"

Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
So, Jesus was into pilates?

a joke,

But really, that kind of "Quote" seems a bit presumptuous. And not in the part of the myth ( myth means story, not lie) that seems to lend 'Him' most credence. I find it easier to contemplate the dictums of the humble, 'Jesus', than the arrogant one. Those aspects are ones I tend to assume a frustrated follower added to his cannon, centuries, later.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
Would have been an interesting turn of events. But I think it was set in motion from the beginning of time to play out just like it did.

This discussion needs more cowbell.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
Does anyone remember the bit the comedian Sam Kinneson (sp) used to do as Jesus on the cross yelling at somebody to get a pair of pliers? Very funny though blasphemous to be sure.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
Wes,

Bush and "Them" didn't invent William Wallace. And Clinton "invented" the Black Hawk Down debacle in Somalia.

War is Hell.

I simply admire the best in men that comes from selfless sacrifice and both those stories, in all their pain, exemplify man at his best.........and worst.

Going to War in Iraq was heralded by Bush as the Christian thing to do in his mind. Problem with the system there, I agree.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
Trust me, "They" aint controlling me. You think you can guess who I voted for? You might be surprised.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
"When it comes to people living on a finite world with finite resources,"

Yes, if you believe that the world is finite, then you will experience it as finite. But even science reveals that it is not finite. How? The Sun is adding energy to the Earth at all times. Everything is energy, therefore nothing on this Earth is finite. We just don't know how to adequately use that energy. As for the Sun, science says that it will run out of energy one day, yet science does not know how it generates its energy. Science is only recently discovering that matter can disappear and reappear and can be guided by thought. If everything is energy, then matter is energy and thus energy can disappear and reappear. Study quantum physics to understand this.

The depths of the universe are not even barely understood by man. Science has only scratched at the surface. The universe is infinite. The Earth is infinite. Man is an infinite Being, though his time to make mistakes and learn from those mistakes is finite.

Science is not the antithesis of Spirituality. They can coexist, as long as one understands that Science is the search for Truth as is Spirituality. My experience of Life is my scientific experiment. My results are verifiable, though one would have to work for an extended time to verify them.

Believe what you want to Wes. I understand how you can rail against religion. I rail against it too, but God is not religion and to blame God for what man does through religion is unwise.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
"Is that what we are doing in the middle east, or Gitmo? Is that what the "Christian" right was doing when they referred to Obama as a Muslim terrorist? "

Yes, religion makes mistakes. It is a construct of man and is often guided by mans carnal mind.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
I told you that I might leave something important out. haha. Yes, God has consciousness and so does man.
Bamm_Bamm

Social climber
I'm lost, Please help me!!!
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
Why is it that atheists are the only ones that can be as#@&%es?

You would think they would be able to demonstrate this new morality they claim to have.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
Dr,

How has Christianity changed? You say it changes daily.

micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
Weschrist, maybe I misunderstood you.

I thought you were referring to "They" the government, "They" the media, "They" big brother, "They" the religion....etc....

What did you mean?
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
The Tough Questions are the best ones and the only kind that lead to self examination.

"The unexamined life is one not worth living."
Plato
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
"Why is it that atheists are the only ones that can be as#@&%es? "

Why are Christians always so ready with the names? Lighten up for "Christ's" sake.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 19, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
"Why is it that atheists are the only ones that can be as#@&%es?"

Come on Bambam, you can't really believe that atheists are the only Aholes out there. I am not an atheist and I have been an Ahole on more then one occasion.

Yes, its true. The magnificent, the wonderful, the wise John Moosie has been an Ahole. haha.. Shucks. now I have lost my Jesus101 badge. Dang..

Anyone have a Jesus101 badge that they would trade me. I have an extra "walk the old lady across the street" badge to trade with. I will even throw in a bobble head Jesus.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
DR. F said "So you christians have nothing. Jesus died and never came back is the only thing that can be proved."

So is it proof you demand? That's kind of a slippery slope for a worldview. Seems to me if you demand proof prior to engaging something of significance, you run the risk of a fairly mundane existence.

Do you need proof to trust a good friend?

Proof that you will not get rained on before heading up a route you really want to do?

Proof a book will be good before you read it?

Proof someone will never let you down before you love them?

Tough way to go.

I can't prove it. But this route is killer.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
I never said you had to believe in Jesus, or that I was going to try to prove it to you. I just find it kind of a bummer when people want proof for these kinds of things. Maybe it was a bad set of analogies. I think we can all agree it comes down to faith.

I'm telling you. As an athiest/agnostic, you should really check out Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict. He was an athiest. The book isn't trying to make you a Christian. Its actually a pretty tough read. Its a breakdown of everything that never made sense to a very smart guy and admitted skeptic. I think you would dig it. It would be great conversation.

No lie, I'll buy you a copy and send it to you. I would love to hash it out with somebody like you who is asking tough questions. Its good for me to test my faith and have reason for what I believe.

By the way, have you done Eichorn's Pinnacle?

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 08:16pm PT
For the proof seeking ones out there...there is plenty of proof that there are as#@&%es on both sides of the Religious question.

"The theory of energy is well understood, and works in mysterious ways, but god has to be more than some random pile of energy, he has to have some sort of consciousness to be God.
And consciousness needs a brain to sort out all the energies swirling around him to make things work."

That consciousness needs a brain is an unsupported assumption.

I don't think science or religion believes in "random piles of energy" Energy comes into alignment with what we can loosely call "information" whether it's the laws and patterns of Quantum physics, DNA, or other natural (or divine) laws.

If you believe our consciousness somehow jumps into being from the electrical firing of synapses in our brains, how can you deny that the energetic interactions within the cosmic don't also structure some kind of consciousness or awareness?

Again, it's not religion nor science that make both so dangerous and often "Bad for You" It's our distorted human nature that screws up our relationships, religion and application of technology.

Peace

Karl
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 19, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
"That premise can be refuted by the law of physics(speculation) that all things come from the bottom up. There is no person/god above us pulling the strings in our universe.
The universe, the planet and all life forms started from lower past, and developed to what we have today. No thing or god could have been one step ahead of the universe to make sure it is made to some plan or manifestation."

This premise is being refuted by quantum physics which is starting to show that the mind of the scientist has an affect on the outcome of the experiment. Quantum physicists discovered that when you observe a subatomic particle, your observation is a product of what is called “the entire measurement situation.” This situation involves three elements, namely the subatomic entity, the instrument used and the mind of the scientist. Which would seem to say the opposite of bottom up. That the mind does play a role.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
Again Doc, just your assumptions based on a limited conception of the set of possibilities.

Of course, Religion is just as guilty as you are of preconceiving of creation in overly simplistic terms.

It will be a laugh if we die and find out in the next world that an "ultimate god" didn't create this world anymore than mother nature created the environment in the San Diego Zoo (which it did in a sense, and yet did not)

We could be the ant farm for some advanced civilization's science experiment for all we know.

Again, everybody is trying to gain comfort, or political advantage, from having a handle on their WorldView, religious or atheist.

There are other ways of exploring the deep questions of life. How and what factors make people fulfilled or happy? How do we know that? How do we go about choosing how we spend our time and energy wisely, based on what will really work for us and our communities best interests?

Skirting religion, spirituality, or even science has it's freedoms and also it's pitfalls. Life is going to hold your feet to the fire no matter what

Peace

Karl


Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
Hi Weschrist, :D

In response to your 1/17 post....I think I am ( by god's grace ) a good influence on society. Yet you speak against me who tries to help, encourage, heal and love people. Why ?

Dana, Prayer in itself does not cure cancer. A combination of doctors and medicine mixed with god....or god alone... does.....or does not. Because, sometimes the answer to our request for healing is no....or not quite yet...or not entirely. I found that out in several huge episodes in my own life. Feel free to email me. Peace and Joy, Lynne

Dr. F...There Really is more than the voices in yo head. Really.

Micronut, thanks for the pics.

Sorry I'm behind and still processing posts from two days ago. Work is picking up and Lynne is living somewhat again and this BE GOOD !

Peace and Big Joy to You All !!!
WBraun

climber
Jan 19, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
So ....

The final absolute truth is: God exists, he's a person, and he's NOT impersonal and he can be proven.

Without that absolute truth the whole cosmic manifestation would not exist, nor would there ever be any debate whatsoever.

And Jesus Christ is bonafide sakty-avesa avatar nitya siddha, ever liberated soul .........
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
Wow, W.Braun, So well put, Sir. I hope to someday soon discuss
the name sakty-avesa avatar nitya siddha with you. It would be a fun and powerful talk amongst friends. : ))

Hope you and Merry are having a great winter...Lynne
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
I don't know if this is what Weschrist is referring to, but I just reread some of these further up posts again.

Werner, "god can be proven".

I, Lynne, have proof around me that god is real and alive, but others may not accept this proof. However, god will never be able to be led around by someone or put on the tv for an appearance to say, "Hey, this is God and He is Real." At some point in time god does require faith. lrl
BBA

Social climber
petaluma ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 10:09pm PT
I knew a guy who spoke in toungues once. He stuttered. He said once, "TTTT...you know what I mean". He meant Toloumne, and we knew what he meant!!! This took place in Berkeley. A real revelation.
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Jan 19, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
proof does not give legitimacy to a concept. it only demonstrates our coming to terms with what we did not understand.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
Have been thinking much about the unseen world again today. Mentioned this earlier in the thread. We cannot see the wind and much of the things that hold us and our planet and the universe together. Some things can only be known and gazed at through special equipment such as an electron microscope and other devices. Others are still unseen and perhaps yet undiscovered.

Over many years Huge discoveries have been made. What theories some were punished and sometimes killed for are now valid and documented truths in the sciences.

So, we are still learning and discovering, I hope.

Thus I bring up the subject of heaven. Heaven is unseen and uncharted. It is spoken of as a real place in the bible....and spoken of quite a few times.

Do I discount it because I cannot see it, feel it or quantify it ? If one does that ... it is as fiercely wrong as those that condemned Galileo.

So you who are condemning the unseen are actually acting like the "religious institutions" of old who did the same.







Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 19, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
Finally, as I was thinking today it hit my brain that the "unseen stuff" is an awesome thing that jesus spoke about, addressed, and gave us. The unseen stuff consists of things no one can take from us. No dictator, no nasty spouse, no mean parent when you were growing up, no boss, no deceitful friend, no enemy...can take from any of us the unseen gifts that jesus has for us.

I began to think about this and came to the conclusion that this is so very incredible! A human would not think this way, to me this is a god thing.

Most of the things we humans deem as important in our lives and in our lifetime here on the planet can be lost, stolen, broken, loaned and never returned...yo get my drift.

The things that god and his son jesus gives us can't be "dusted" by the above circumstances. So if some bad dude gets in power he can take all our possessions, but not heaven or faith or hope or love or joy or trust....you get my drift.

jesus gave us stuff that no one could ever take from us. It's stuff he and me are good for, together. So, yo are never at the real mercy of bad dudes. The real is forever and they can't steal it from you.

IMHO and Love from Lynnie
Jennie

Trad climber
Idaho Falls
Jan 19, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
Great post. Lynne!
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 20, 2009 - 12:15am PT
Weschrist here is my take on a few of those questions,

Why then are so many Christians scared as hell to honestly examine the possibility of their existence without God?
----I'm not sure. Fear possibly. Doesn't bother me though. I think many self proclaimed Christians are more afraid to ask..."what if what I say I believe is actually real?" Might make them a bit squirmy to have to put action or true faith to what they claim to believe.

Why are they incapable of realizing human beings are perfectly capable of figuring out that killing, adultery, and deceit are bad without being told by God and threatened with eternal damnation?
----I don't think that's a real problem for dedicated Christians. I am fully aware and agree with you that man is capable of all you say. I believe man is programmed with a fairly innate sense of right and wrong and would know such even without access to the Bible or the Gospel.

Why are they so quick to attribute strange phenomena to God, from burning bushes and voices in their head to quantum physics... yet denounce evolution or the well documented age of the Earth?
----I would say science and God work wonderfully together. They do not have to contradict each other as many on both sides of the argument seem to believe. I think many Christians are cool with microevolution, as am I, but making the jump between species takes more faith than believing in a burning bush. I'm all for a good discussion on evolutionary science and have a background in genetics, microbiology and cell bio, but that one's a rabbit hole due to the faith involved on both ends of the spectrum in my opinion.
Age of the Earth.....you'll find good arguments on old earth and new earth philosophy brewing all throughout Christian academia. This should not be an Us Christians vs. You NonChristians issue. Like genetics, there is still so much good data out here being discovered at such a rapid pace, that you gotta be nuts to say the verdict is in. Look at what we didn't know about the human genome ten years ago. We will probably look back and laugh at ourselves for the conclusions we draw now on this kind of issue.

All of which should be considered non essential tenants of the Faith. You can care or know nothing of these hot button issues and still get it right by God. Similarly, you can be an ordained minister who's educated in Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew and still miss the whole enchilada.

Again, you seem pretty irritated by misconceptions about Christianity that just aren't true of what Christ was really about or the worldview real Christians share. I'd love to apologize for all the actions of those who taint the Faith in the eyes of their fellow man, but that may not be of much use. I'm just here to try and explain the real deal about Christianity for the record.

I didn't invent this stuff. Its just what I believe to be True and not the invention of any man.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 20, 2009 - 12:39am PT
Lynne and Micronut,

Excellent posts. I must admit, though, that we've strayed a bit from rockermike's original question. Still, your posts illustrate quite nicely the real debate: between those who believe in God, and those who believe in humanity's oldest and most dangerous idols -- ourselves.

John
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 20, 2009 - 12:43am PT
I apologize JE, seriously.

I tend to stray...they have a name for us today, but I dislike labels. Just kick me any time .... I don't take it personally...usually. Give permission for anyone to keep me on topic.

Night all for now. Lynnie
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 20, 2009 - 12:52am PT
"A combination of doctors and medicine mixed with god....or god alone... does.....or does not."

Bingo!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 20, 2009 - 01:29am PT
So you heard what I was saying, Jaybro ? Comments are so often passed over. Did you hear me say, healing is not a given ?

Healing comes from Dr.'s, God and Medicine...or just the body taking control and getting betta again. Or sometimes healing is not given and one dies. Also, sometimes one is given life but not in the fullest extent one had before.

Life is, needed to be lived ....where we are, who we are, what we are...Live. :DD
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 20, 2009 - 11:58am PT
Mickey-

WhatdoIwannatrailerfer. Thethingsgotnowheels.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 20, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
Awesome flick...Snatch.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 20, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
The proof's all around your, Dr. F. You're free to believe or disbelieve what you choose -- for now. Neither my belief nor your unbelief can be contradicted solely by logic. We interpret what we experience, and that interpretation colors our thought.

As just one example, I find the process of natural selection the best model of which I am aware for explaining the survival of changes in organisms. To you, that's evidence of nothing regarding God, though ultimately contradictory of Scripture. To me, it's perfectly consistent with my belief in Him, and not at all inconsistent with Scripture.

Ultimately, though, my proof is in my experience. I know God --imperfectly to be sure, but I know and experience Him through the person of the Holy Spirit. You cannot determine if that is real or not, because you cannot enter inside my life and perceptions. Accordingly, you do the next best thing. You try to determine which people to believe. In stating (many posts earlier) that the story of the Resurrection is a 2,000-year-old myth, you've chosen to disbelieve the writers of the New Testament. Your evidence is that YOU haven't seen Jesus, so He must not be alive. I've seen Him change lives, so I find it very easy to believe the Pauline story of what happened on the road to Damascus. While I wish you could see Him as I do, I cannot persuade you to do so without your own act of faith. Similarly, you cannot dissuade me without my placing faith in your view, but that differs from my experience.

For these reasons, I will respect the views of others on these matters, but that respect does not mean I hold those views to be valid, or believe it improper to try to help bring about change in the views of others. I does mean that I will try not to insult the morality or intelligence of others merely because they disagree with me. After all, as a Christian, I believe that Christ died for them, too.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 20, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
Dr. F,

I think we're doing the same thing. My reality includes my experience; yours includes yours. I came to Christianity as an adult, from a position of what I would call Heroic Existentialism -- there's nothing out there, so deal with it. My experience changed my mind, just as yours seems to have changed yours. Incidentally, my comments about not insulting, etc., were aimed at Christians, not at you.

John
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 20, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
Wes wrote,

"I have no problem with Christ. I have no problem with good people."
---I would ask, how do you define Good. Good in relation to what? And I'm glad to hear you don't have a problem with Christ.

"I have a HUGE problem with people who think they are good people based on the fact that they call themselves "Christians."
----I agree with you. Me too. But I try not to dwell on it unless I can be part of the change/growth they need.


"I also have a HUGE problem with people who attempt to impose their religious BELIEFS on society and scream freedom of religion when they are thwarted... prayer in schools, creationism as a subject, ban on gay marriage, chicks wearing veils, etc."
----Why? Why does it bother you. My guess is that you don't like the feeling that somebody feels they have the answer and are unwilling to compromise. In say, a heated political debate, there is always the chance that something you say could be taken to heart by the other party which may change their stance. You actually have a shot to win the argument....or win them over. Is that your beef with christianity? It claims to be the one and only way?

---I only share my beliefs in the hopes that somebody would hear something that would benefit them and lead to a change in them that brings joy, peace, and a sense of being loved here on Earth. Not to mention a wonderful afterlife. That's what compels to share. I have something special and I want others to have it too. Its out of honest care. Not to "win" an argument.

---I've stopped complaining when things don't go my way politically. It's our job to teach our children, not the schools. We should love and respect people from all races, religions, and lifestyles while still being able to disagree with particular choices and action of those people.

The Truth must be spoken, but it must be spoken with love and respect.
By the way, you gotta get back up to Eichorn sometime. Cathedral is better and more climbing, but the top spot on that pinnacle is a special spot.

WBraun

climber
Jan 20, 2009 - 01:19pm PT
"It doesn't really have anything to do with God, Jesus or Betty. Its in our mind, which is OK, as long as you know the truth."

Wrong.

It's not in your mind. Just as the driver of the car is not the car.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 20, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
Proof makes faith irrelevant. If one has proof then one CANNOT have faith. Faith is, after all, belief without proof.

I don't know why such a simple yet truthful idea is so difficult to understand.

Humans are given to faith in an attempt to reconcile themselves to the tragedies inevitable in their lives. All faiths are designed as vehicles of reconciliation.

Science seeks the truth unconcerned with reconciliation.

If God would reveal himself to us "all" then we could "all" "believe." Instead he reveals himself only through "faith." In doing so he calls his own existence into question. Why?
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Jan 20, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
"Those are all fine and great. But wouldn't it be ABSURD if attempts were made to legally establish that a particular group's belief that ONE version of philosophy, art, kindness, love, and/or beauty should hold true for ALL others?

Why then can't you see the same is true for RELIGIOUS beliefs? "

It would be absurd. I think your argument here would be better suited for a thread which asserted that creationism ought to be taught rather than darwinism or that gay marriage shouldnt be legal for religious reasons.

The lack of categorical imperative here does not invalidate religion. Just because you can't legally establish my religious beliefs as superior to everyone elses does not mean that my beliefs are somehow worthless. It should be noted that many believers disagree on many issues but still respect their common ground.

Unfortunately there are some christians (and jews and muslims and atheists) who are so overzealous that they try to impose their beliefs on others but it has been pretty clearly established here that that is not ideal behavior, even from the standpoint of believers.

micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 20, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
Wes,
Important question...
Specifically how has Christianity been imposed on you by the govenment?

And you have to admit that the society is trending towards universalism and secularism rather than toward it.
Christians are the ones concerned about this progression in western culture. I would think athiests are pleased with the increased secularism in America over the past twenty years.
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Jan 20, 2009 - 08:29pm PT
the overzealous approach is taken by some, but (in my experience) more often than not, any mention of things religious is tantamount to "beating someone over the head with a Bible" in the eyes of many agnostics/atheists.

Many people just want to share what has had a positive impact in their own life (as micro alluded to) and are rebuffed with great prejudice while a blind eye is turned to that by those who do not believe.

I don't hold every non believer accountable for actions of their peers. Its also not reasonable to hold all believers accountable for misdeeds/misconstrued deeds of their cohorts.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 20, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
Honestly, Dr. F. Yeah.

And I regret it. I was all stoked when he was first sworn in, but what a disaster. What a letdown.

I cared little about politics at the time but was a pretty uneducated right winger, God and Guns and Pro Life as the main reason I voted that way, typical stuff. But I was in my early twenties.

I still lean right but would probably be considered a right trending centrist. Looking for a good leader right now. Most of the Washington boys and girls are self serving crooks anyway.

micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 20, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
I also blindly thought...."We need a Christian President. That will make me feel good about restoring this Nation to its judeo christian roots."

Now I realize thats a farce. In my opinion we need sound leadership, accountability and adherence to the constitution by men and women who truly want to serve their land.

Christians need to lead by example if we hope to elicit any positive change in a broken world.

Again, Bush and his administration was a grand dissapointment. More republicans nneed to admit this humbly.
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Jan 20, 2009 - 08:43pm PT
I second that, micro. Its tough to explain that being christian does not equate to being a knee-jerk republican.

Bush was a letdown. He talked the talk in 2000 but failed to do much more than that in the years following.
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Jan 20, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
prove it.
Robb

Social climber
It's like FoCo in NoCo Daddy-O!
Jan 20, 2009 - 10:48pm PT
Hey DMT
Was it the one off of Presscot (?) road near Briggsmore?
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 20, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. so i ran over and said "stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?" He said, "Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. -Emo Phillips
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 20, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
Mighty Hiker, great point. Peeps, not jesus, created all these crazy clubs. Read Matthew or Mark or Luke or John. Jesus was pretty straight forward and no creator of cliques. :D
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 20, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
Dr. F, response to 10:12 am....Sorry, but "Betty" could have never helped me, would never have had the power to pull lynnie from death to life. Many years ago my psychological life/brain was on a depressed and downward slide to death. A miracle happened for this gal.

Miracle as in the Thread Question re: miracles. Yes, god does miracles and intervenes. god says, " draw close to me and I Will draw close to yo." He means it. Snuggle right on up to the dude. He's real. Peace, lrl
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
Dr F -- "God must have attributes, if he has no attributes, only nothing has no attributes, so he does not exist."

No attributes, eh?

WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
You can't read English either.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 21, 2009 - 02:37pm PT
Dr. F,

Your simple reason is a lesson to all of us.
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 02:37pm PT
Dr F_ailed

I told you can't read nor can you even comprehend your failed logic.

That's NOT hindu. It's Sanskrit.

But you're a useless argument period.
Gene

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
How can the supernatural, which is unobservable and unquantifiable, be explained by science? Is it because science posits that only that which can be observed and quantified is “real” and therefore the supernatural cannot exist?

gm
KlimbIn

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
" How can the supernatural, which is unobservable and unquantifiable, be explained by science? Is it because science posits that only that which can be observed and quantified is “real” and therefore the supernatural cannot exist?
gm
"

Uhm Interesting.

If the answer is yes (ie. science posits ...) then 'science' is using an non empirically provable method of, ahem, proof.

We'll just take it on faith then that science is correct.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:10pm PT
Dr. F,
You're right, it always seems the "spiritual" folks make the personal attacks.
It is nearly impossible to reason with the unreasonable. Those that think all experience is absolutely personal and not subject to critique of any kind are locked in an epistemological solipsism. But it's not easy to explain that to them! You're doing as good a job as is possible..
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
roehl

Hahaha I told him he can't read.

"Does Werner's logic or Sanscript transcripts do anything for anyone else out there."

It's Sanskrit, ... not hindu nor sanscript. And he's a scientist?????

hahahaha
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
You've made a mockery of science here Dr F
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
See what I mean?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
Heresy can't exist without the backdrop of unreasonable belief and the abandonment of reasonable critique. Heretics are an intolerable element that must be destroyed. Very dangerous these believers. Just look at the history of the disciples of love.
Gene

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
Dr. F and Paul,

You might be overreacting a tad. I'm enjoying this discussion of ideas. We may never agree, but what's wrong with that?

gm
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
Dr F -- "Science has proven that the world, universe, and life on earth did not reqire God to make it happen."

No where anywhere has this been ever proven.

And .... you're a scientist?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
Gene,
You think so? Perhaps.
Gene

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
DMT,

LOL!

Nice rant. I'm serious.
gm

WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
FACTS is what makes perfect religion.

Facts must correspond to the real truth not superstitions, beliefs or faiths neither myths.

Science must include the science of the soul to be even labeled science.

If it's imperfect it's not science.

Gene

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
What aspect of science allows you to suppose what God would or would not do?

gm
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
Dr F

Hahaha you're not a very good scientist are you?

All your so called proofs are just merely that: "a bunch assumptions you state as fact."
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
It's called "Poor fund of knowledge".

Dr F -- It's entirely beneficial to remain an atheist if one does not understand the soul and God.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
Hey guys, I want back into the discussion here, but really want to know how to put stuff in italics.

Can somebody show me.

Italically Challenged,
Scott
Gene

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
[eye] babble [/eye]

eye = i
Gene

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
Dr F,

Going forward, I hope.

In your view, does the lack of ability to prove God with the currently available scientific tools preclude God's existence?

gm
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
Dr. F,
You have done a lot of work on this subject. Obviously you care about this stuff. I would challenge you on a couple points.

1. Based on your other posts, you seem to have an image of what God should be like. You said,
"God would have made himself known,
God would have told us the earth is round, germs cause
disease."
"God appears to do nothing when he could of done something.
"God would have made us without disease, death, suffering. He would of designed the human body to live forever."

I know these seem like good attributes, but the problem is, you, Paul , have created them based on what you feel is good and "God like." You are trying to invent what you believe to be the best thing for mankind based on your personal feelings and logic. I think you have an ingrained feeling of what you think is "fair."

I would say the real beauty is arriving at a place where you learn, via science, or faith, or personal journey, or proof, or evidence, or other route, that we(mankind) are not the sole reason for the existence of the universe. We may look at things like suffering and disease and war and say they show evidence of an unjust creator or no creator at all, but that is simply from our shallow viwepoint.

Let me know what you think of this illustration.
You are a kid at the beach. You spend hours making a killer sandcastle. A big one too. Super cool, little driftwood gate, seaweed decorations, pebble people, the whole deal.
Peole walk by, admiring your work, especially the dirty band-aid drawbridge. They marvel at the beauty and detail. Then the urge strikes you to hop up and kick it all down. Totally fun....it was your creation anyway. The joy was in the creation. And it was your baby from beginning to end.

Ah, but some people walk by just as you smash it down and, agast, say...."What a little beast!" You ruined it. It was perfect. It was beautiful!"

My point is that they are wrong in thier thinking based on their views and their limited knowledge of the big picture.

I belive, as Christ and the Bible teach, that God is truly sovreign. It is all His. From beginning to end. We don't make the rules nor can we. There is beauty in that. And for the Truth and Joy and Peace I have found because of this I am grateful.

Any thoughts?






Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
"Therefore you can disprove God if you can prove that he does not have the attributes that he is supposed to have. "

If you have young kids, I bet they believe you have all kinds of attributes that you perhaps don't

Peace

Karl
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
Dr F " .... my science .."

It's not your science, and you sure are hyper sensitive.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 21, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
Everyone has to believe in something, or so they say. Science, religion, the tooth fairy, LEB, whatever.

I believe I'll have another beer.
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
There is no endurance of the changing body. That the body is changing every moment by the actions and reactions of the different cells is admitted by modern medical science; and thus growth and old age are taking place in the body. But the spirit soul exists permanently, remaining the same despite all changes of the body and the mind. That is the difference between matter and spirit. By nature, the body is ever changing, and the soul is eternal. This conclusion is established by all classes of seers of the truth, both impersonalist and personalist. Bg 2.16

The influence of the atomic soul can be spread all over a particular body. According to the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad, this atomic soul is situated in the heart of every living entity, and because the measurement of the atomic soul is beyond the power of appreciation of the material scientists, some of them assert foolishly that there is no soul. The individual atomic soul is definitely there in the heart along with the Supersoul, and thus all the energies of bodily movement are emanating from this part of the body. The corpuscles which carry the oxygen from the lungs gather energy from the soul. When the soul passes away from this position, activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases. Medical science accepts the importance of the red corpuscles, but it cannot ascertain that the source of the energy is the soul. Medical science, however, does admit that the heart is the seat of all energies of the body. Bg 2.17

I can go on forever.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
Dr F

You just haven't thought very deep, yet you attack others for not having gone deep enough.

A purely mechanical universe is NOT simple philosophically. When did the universe begin? What was going on for the trillions and trillions of year before that? When and how did time begin?

It's a lot easier for a universe to emerge from a Being beyond time and to exist without the consciousness of that ultimate consciousness than for it to exist the way material science would suppose (until, at least, they started questioning time and space themselves)

Course, before modern physics, how would you know or prove that even Time wasn't real the way we see it?

DMT wrote
"Karl part of growing up is learing that the little egocentric world children construct around themselves is much larger. It also involves learning that your parents are not SUPER people. "

It's true, people cling to ideas left over from ancient times when explanation had to be simplistic and tribal. Still, on the other hand, you have capabilities and motives your kids couldn't dream of.

Peace

Karl
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
Being embarrassed by so many theories and by contradictions of various types of philosophical speculation, they become disgusted or angry and foolishly conclude that there is no supreme cause and that everything is ultimately void.

Such people are in a diseased condition of life.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 06:31pm PT
Paul or Dr. F, what do you guys think of what I laid out in my last post?
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
Nobody can become God. God is never made. God does not become. God is always God, not that one is not God, and he becomes God by some mystic yogic power.

This theory is going on ...
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
This cosmic universe is created by the Lord for those living entities who are carried away by the illusory thought of becoming one with Him by imitation.

The three modes of material nature are for the further bewilderment of the conditioned souls. The conditioned living entity, bewildered by the illusory energy, considers himself a part of the material creation due to forgetfulness of his spiritual identity, and thus he becomes entangled in material activities life after life.

This material world is not for the purpose of the Lord Himself, but is for the conditioned souls who wanted to be controllers due to misuse of their God-gifted minute independence.

Thus the conditioned souls are subjected to repeated birth and death. ("The Status Qua") : SB 3.7
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 21, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
dark matter, exists everywhere in everything, yet is undefinable.

micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
DMT,

Climbing rocks and bivying in a space blanket on the side of a big hill seems ridiculous to my co-workers.

Doesn't mean it aint the bees knees and the real deal to you and me though.

I'm just sayin.......tongues aint for everybody. But for some it is a true and meaningful communication with God. I've never been part of it though, and I'm sure there are tons of fakers out there.
Gene

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 07:02pm PT
DMT,

I have problems with the toungues thing, and also transubstantiation as part of Catholic dogma. But on balance, well, you know what I think.

gm
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 07:11pm PT
The atheist class of men, they do not agree to accept that this material world is created by God. They give some reason of their own way of thinking, and most of the arguments are "perhaps like this, perhaps like this, perhaps like this." What is this nonsense, "perhaps"? Is that science? "Perhaps"? So they have no sufficient reason that there is no creator.

Perhaps = Theory

In everything, we find there is a creator. Anything you take. Take for example a table. There is a creator. Somebody has manufactured it. Or a microphone, somebody has created it. Anything you take, you have to find out some creator. And such a vast, gigantic thing, going on so nicely and punctually... The sun is rising punctually, the moon is rising punctually, the fortnight is going on, the season is coming punctually—everything. Sp

The unconditioned souls are in the spiritual world.
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
Yes

So if I go to some country and need to find some destination and instead I mental speculate how to get to where I need to go it will be time consuming and difficult if at all possible to figure out where I need to go.

No, instead I consult the proper person there in the know.

Modern science is the indirect method for understanding the truth.

It will take them another 428,000 years.

WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
"Where did this spiritual world come from?"

In your dictionary there is the word "eternal"

Study that.

Now in this material world the word water is different from the actual water.

If one is dying of thirst saying the word water will not quench.

One must actually go to water.
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
Īśvara (the Supreme Lord), jīva (the living entity), prakṛti (nature), eternal time and karma (activity) are all explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Out of these five, the Lord, the living entities, material nature and time are eternal.

"The manifestation of prakṛti may be temporary, but it is not false.

So in the Bhagavad-gītā the subject matter deals with the īśvara, the supreme controller, and the jīvas, the controlled living entities. Prakṛti (material nature) and time (the duration of existence of the whole universe or the manifestation of material nature) and karma (activity) are also discussed.

Prakṛti itself is constituted by three qualities: the mode of goodness, the mode of passion and the mode of ignorance.

Above these modes there is eternal time, and by a combination of these modes of nature and under the control and purview of eternal time there are activities which are called karma. These activities are being carried out from time immemorial, and we are suffering or enjoying the fruits of our activities.
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
You are free to say whatever you want.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
I just had a late afternoon walk by the river with my honey and was musing about this thread.

I think I find myself defending Religion but there are certainly elements I don't want to stand behind.

One is the "Literalist" interpretation of scripture, and simplistic ideas of God that make "him" a despot far worse than Hilter or Pol Pot (torturing people for millions of years because they wouldn't have blind faith that somebody 2000 years ago paid their sin bill for them)

As an example how a "literalist" view might be wrong but not entirely, I got this "feeling" that conveyed information to my mind:

Notice how the Bible says God made women out of a rib of man? Sounds like a childish myth eh? But if you expand your conception to note that Men have an X and Y chromosome and women have two X chromosomes? Now the knowledge from within from the universal is limited by the limited knowledge of the individual receiving it. The ancient myths are analogies for things we weren't able to understand as tribal rubes (and who know, many of them could have been pure fantasies)

The point being, religion, like science, has its limitations.

Just as science, being proved wrong or short sighted again and again over it's history, is still an important approach to expanding our knowledge.

By the same token, because the history of Religion is tarnished by the violence and ignorance that is endemic in all humans, doesn't mean searching for the inner Truth and abiding Peace in Life isn't a critical question in our lives

Peace

Karl
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 21, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
"The atheist class of men, they do not agree to accept that this material world is created by God."

I'm not an atheist I'm an anti-theist--big difference.
When I think of what Eastern religions like Hinduism and have done to a place like India I get sick. When you consider what a notion like reincarnation has done via the caste system to reduce human beings to virtual slaves it should make everybody sick. What passes for enlightenment in the east is really a means to control masses of people for the purpose of exploitation.
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
There is no such word as hindu nor Hinduism in the Vedas.

Our eyes are imperfect to understand what is going on as you seem to see.

You say "When I think" this means you are speculating and guessing again.

But you are free to think whatever, but you do not have a solid perfect solution to the material problems of; Birth, death, disease and old age.

You are controlled by these forces and are a slave to them.

Modern science can not conquer them with out higher spiritual knowledge.

Gene

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
Paul,

There is no shortage of hideous activities done by MAN to other men, in the name of a god or otherwise.

Can you give me an example of any tribe, nation, civilization or other large social group that does NOT have a creation story (myth), or a supernatural entity as part of their culture?

It seems to me that most, if not almost all, do. Why is that?

gm
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
Paul, it's true that vested powers have deeply corrupted the social system in India.

The problems in China have been just as bad under the communists who threw everything about God completely out the window.

It's a human thing. We grab at any concept and leverage to our advantage.

Peace

Karl


paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 21, 2009 - 09:05pm PT
It is higher spiritual knowledge that's the real illusion of the east and the source of misery for so many. Birth, death, disease, old age these are the grave and constant realities of all life. They instill fear in humanity and man turns to myth to reconcile himself to these fears. Others exploit these myths as a means of societal control. Call it what you want it's your delusion, centuries of misery have been the reward of enlightenment.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 21, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
Creation myths are everywhere and vary greatly. Which one is right/true? They can't all be right. It's a certainty some are in error. If it's possible for one to be in error then all might be in error. After all, they're only supported by the faith of the culture that produced them
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 09:20pm PT
Feel like I'm behind the times lately on my special Topo Land. The sabbatical I have taken for months due to the death of my husband is over and work is once again a reality. I miss being right on top the discussion and I don't like the fringes. Will learn to cope and adjust. :D

That said, just read the last two pages of this. Awesome discussion. I love you guys and are proud of yo like a proud Mama. Putting out the heart, Philosophies learned, questions, doubts, absurbities you feel but honoring the others thoughts. Life, love, learning....lrl

John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 21, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
Some say that God does not exist because science can not find Him/Her.

There was a time when science could not see the atom. Yet the atom existed. Or did it only come into existence when science found it? haha.

There was a time when science could not prove the existence of germs? Did they only come into existence when science could prove them?

The heart coupled with the mind are the only things needed to see God, yet one must purify the mind and the heart before one can see God. In the beginning, man could see God, yet man chose to separate from God and this eventually created a veil between man and God because God respects mans free will. Since God is everywhere, then in order to respect mans free will choice to not see God, God created this veil.

It is possible to see through the veil, but one must start undoing all the untruths created from the desire to be separate from God.

Currently most men are mere children. They walk a million miles away from God by making millions of decisions that create separation from God, then expect God to appear to them the first time they get upset by the messes they made or when they get lonely. Much like they climb Everest, but only have enough energy to get to the top and not enough to safely get them down.

So why doesn't God appear immediately upon being called? One would have to understand the nature of God. Imperfection can not exist in direct connection to God, so if God appeared to an imperfect man, then God would consume all of the imperfections instantly and this could cause a man to lose his mind, as all his belief about separation would instantly be gone and he would not know who he is, because the majority, if not all of his beliefs were built on separation.

Therefore God realizes that the path back to God needed to be a gradual one.

Some here will laugh at what I have posted and say that the heart is only an organ made of blood and tissue. They think man is only made of organic tissue and do not know that man has energy centers that control his appearance and his experience. These energy centers are called Chakras. One such energy center is called the heart because it pumps energy to all the other centers, much like the physical heart does.

Earlier I posted a teaching on quantum physics. While it is true that most scientist do not currently accept what I have posted. There will come a day when they do.

I do have one question that perhaps Werner or Karl can answer. Spiritualist were the first to talk about atoms, though they did not call them this. I forget the term that they used. Do either of you know or anyone else here? Thanks.
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
roehl -- " If it's possible for one to be in error then all might be in error."

Even you don't believe that deep down. That's just poor logic and you know it.

I know Ron Kauk did the first ascent of Separate Reality.

Others from seeing Ray Jardine on it assumed he did the FA. Thus everyone else might be in error.

All speculation again. "..might be in error." is speculating again.

Are you for real?
WBraun

climber
Jan 21, 2009 - 09:41pm PT
The Supreme will never submit to a mere $1,000,000. If he did the you would be supreme.

Ten different rewards. Stupid. You are being controlled and at the same time trying to control God.

The material scientist is not very intelligent.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
Gezzz, Dr. F, why would one want to lash out at you in anger? We all be discussing something that is way bigger than us all.
Denominations, religions....all how men put into a cubby or slot something bigger than they can figure out.

God is Way real
God is Pure Love, mixed with mercy, grace, peace, joy and purity and forgiveness.
God so desires for each created being to Know Him.

He gave us everything we need to have a friendship with Him.

Before one discounts God it would be wise to make sure he does not exist. Cause God says, "Come close to me and I Will come close to you." Better try it first before you say ...No God. :) Doncha think ?
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
Dr. F,
You have done a lot of work on this subject. Obviously you care about this stuff.I do too.

I'd like to challenge you on a couple points.

1. Based on your other posts, you seem to have an image of what God should be like. You said,
"God would have made himself known,
God would have told us the earth is round, germs cause
disease."
"God appears to do nothing when he could of done something.
"God would have made us without disease, death, suffering. He would of designed the human body to live forever."

I know these seem like good attributes, but the problem is, you, Paul , have created them based on what you feel is good and "God like." You are trying to invent what you believe to be the best thing for mankind based on your personal feelings and logic. I think you have an ingrained feeling of what you think is "fair."

I would say the real beauty is arriving at a place where you learn, via science, or faith, or personal journey, or proof, or evidence, or other route, that we(mankind) are not the sole reason for the existence of the universe. We may look at things like suffering and disease and war and say they show evidence of an unjust creator or no creator at all, but that is simply from our shallow viwepoint.

Let me know what you think of this illustration.
You are a kid at the beach. You spend hours making a killer sandcastle. A big one too. Super cool, little driftwood gate, seaweed decorations, pebble people, the whole deal.
Peole walk by, admiring your work, especially the dirty band-aid drawbridge. They marvel at the beauty and detail. Then the urge strikes you to hop up and kick it all down. Totally fun....it was your creation anyway. The joy was in the creation. And it was your baby from beginning to end.

Ah, but some people walk by just as you smash it down and, agast, say...."What a little beast!" You ruined it. It was perfect. It was beautiful!"

My point is that they are wrong in thier thinking based on their views and their limited knowledge of the big picture.

I belive, as Christ and the Bible teach, that God is truly sovreign. It is all His. From beginning to end. We don't make the rules nor can we. There is beauty in that. And for the Truth and Joy and Peace I have found because of this I am grateful.

Any thoughts?

TradIsGood

Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
Jan 21, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
In everything, we find there is a creator. Anything you take. Take for example a table. There is a creator. Somebody has manufactured it. Or a microphone, somebody has created it. Anything you take, you have to find out some creator.

That there is a creator is a postulate. [If you do not believe it, try proving it!]

Just like the postulate that there is only one line parallel to a point not on that line. It seemed to work really well until 1905.


Everywhere we found swans, they were white. From this we know that all swans are white.

Oops. Australia has black swan's, unknown to Europeans for centuries.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 21, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
"In the Religious class system the higher ups .....the priests, the popes, the buddahs have a better grasp of it."

Mayhap in a religious system, but god is not religion or religious..... alot of it is stuff people make up. They know as much or as little as any other person. Jesus was actually not to crazy about quite a few of the "religious" leaders. God is the leader, people are people not better at all than each other.

Jesus says several times not to honor the rich and give them the best seat, and then snub the poor. "Seek god while he may be found". "Seek and ye Shall find...." :D

jess' trying to fill in some blanks that have been real and life changing for this gal. Joyfully, Lynne

WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 12:02am PT
micronut -- "Any thoughts?"

Nice analogy.

Dr F where have you gone? You're not hiding now?

This thread sure is goofy ..... hahaha
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 22, 2009 - 02:47am PT
Funny how we expect to "prove" the divine and assume we can judge it based on our assumptions but what it "must" be like.

I'm sure the awareness of dolphins or infant children are much closer to that of Adult humans than Adult Humans might be to the creator of the vast universe and yet think of how the Babies and Dophins have so little chance to understand us or our motives.

So it seems to me, the narrow limitations of humans, and whatever foolishness may exist on the part of religion, has very little reflection on the likelihood of the existence of a Higher Power.

Peace

Karl
jbar

Ice climber
Russia with love.
Jan 22, 2009 - 03:50am PT
So it's science then? Science is THE reality? I'd like to challenge the statement that we do not live by faith. Faith is what got us Pres. Obama. Faith is what you have in your climbing partner, your husband/wife. The sick have faith in modern medicine and their doctor. I look around me and wonder at how disconnected people have become from nature. We have become so "scientific" we think we can control the world. That is until a katrina comes along. What will happen to puny mankind when the climate changes? Oh, I suppose we will use SCIENCE to fix it? We think we know so much about the natural world yet we live in huge cities so that we can control our environment while we destroy real nature. Is science not based on postulation? What is a proton made of? Have you ever seen one? How about a neutron? Why is an electron negatively charged? What keeps electrons in orbit? Are you sure? What is "dark matter"? Show me some. I'd like to see it. What is it made of. Where did man come from? Show me the fossil record. I need proof. What happened to the dinosaurs? Prove it. For that matter how was our planet created, our moon? Speculation.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 22, 2009 - 10:51am PT
Interesting, I thought Obama said we would restore science to its rightful place in society. I believe he said that during his inauguration speech. I think it's a good idea.
WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
In the Rg veda the atom was first described billions of years before Aristotle.

The German scientists studied the Rg veda to understand how to split the atom. From this Rg Veda the knowledge of the atom and how to split it was reviled and the atomic age thus ensued.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 22, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
I have never had a problem with science. I have a problem with the notion that science is the only proof and if science hasn't proven it, then it doesn't exist. Which seems to be the mentality of some here.

According to these articles, aristotle actually disagreed with the theory of atoms. Two other greeks worked out the theory of atoms.

"Around 440 BC, Leucippus of Miletus originated the atom concept. He and his pupil, Democritus (c460-371 BC) of Abdera, refined and extended it in future years. There are five major points to their atomic idea. Almost all of the original writings of Leucippus and Democritus are lost. About the only sources we have for their atomistic ideas are found in quotations of other writers.'

"Aristotle (384-322 BC) quotes both of them extensively in arguing against their ideas"

It goes on to say that an Indian Philosopher put forth the theory of atoms around 600 BC. Somewhat before the Greeks.

http://dbhs.wvusd.k12.ca.us/webdocs/AtomicStructure/Atom-Theory-in-India.html

http://dbhs.wvusd.k12.ca.us/webdocs/AtomicStructure/Greeks.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanada
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Jan 22, 2009 - 12:51pm PT
Thanks Werner, I knew that I had heard mention of things like atoms in the Veda's, but didn't know how to find that info.
WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
Twenty-four centuries before Isaac Newton, the Rig-Veda asserted that gravitation held the universe together.
WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
Dr F -- "The only reason it is said that science can not prove the existence of god is because he is a moving target.'

You are now becoming extremely foolish. First you propound there is no GOD.

Now you claim or lets say perpetuate "God is a moving target".

To say this contradicts that God does not exist.

"God is a moving target" Says he exists.

And you are a scientist??????
WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
Maybe Dr F you should put me in your science laboratory and dissect me.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 22, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
In the Vedas, the smallest unit of matter is pretty dang small (atom-small) it's called an "Anu"

Interestingly, the smallest division of time in the Vedas is the length of time it takes light to traverse the length of an Anu. Even though those ancient guys recognized Atomic particles, they were well aware that those particles had a vibratory nature that ultimately transcended the "hard particle" appearance.

Kinda wild that the speed of light should have been regarded as both constant and the ultimate speed possible thousands of years ago

Peace

Karl
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 22, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
I'm still trying tho get Dr. F to respond to this post from a couple days back. I'm curious what he thinks of it.

Dr. F, or Paul Rhoeul if you're still around, care to comment on this?


You have done a lot of work on this subject. Obviously you care about this stuff. I would challenge you on a couple points.

1. Based on your other posts, you seem to have an image of what God should be like. You said,
"God would have made himself known,
God would have told us the earth is round, germs cause
disease."
"God appears to do nothing when he could of done something.
"God would have made us without disease, death, suffering. He would of designed the human body to live forever."

I know these seem like good attributes, but the problem is, you have created them based on what you feel is good and "God like." You are trying to invent what you believe to be the best thing for mankind based on your personal feelings and logic. I think you have an ingrained feeling of what you think is "fair."

I would say the real beauty is arriving at a place where you learn, via science, or faith, or personal journey, or proof, or evidence, or other route, that we(mankind) are not the sole reason for the existence of the universe. We may look at things like suffering and disease and war and say they show evidence of an unjust creator or no creator at all, but that is simply from our shallow viwepoint.

Let me know what you think of this illustration.
You are a kid at the beach. You spend hours making a killer sandcastle. A big one too. Super cool, little driftwood gate, seaweed decorations, pebble people, the whole deal.
Peole walk by, admiring your work, especially the dirty band-aid drawbridge. They marvel at the beauty and detail. Then the urge strikes you to hop up and kick it all down. Totally fun....it was your creation anyway. The joy was in the creation. And it was your baby from beginning to end.

Ah, but some people walk by just as you smash it down and, agast, say...."What a little beast!" You ruined it. It was perfect. It was beautiful!"

My point is that they are wrong in thier thinking based on their views and their limited knowledge of the big picture.

I belive, as Christ and the Bible teach, that God is truly sovreign. It is all His. From beginning to end. We don't make the rules nor can we. There is beauty in that. And for the Truth and Joy and Peace I have found because of this I am grateful.

Any thoughts?
WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
Dr F always poses as authority.

"You get away from our cozy little planet, and the universe is rough place. There is no love out there."

You haven't even been out there and now your saying such nonsense.

And you're a scientist???????
WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
"but to claim they ..."

There's no they ....

You're totally lost wes and Dr F, you have no clue what you're talking about anymore.
Gene

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
Continuous loop warning!
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Jan 22, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
The whole God/science conversation is a circular argument that I have never seen bear much fruit (new understanding for all involved).

Science hinges on observable or at any rate, measurable stuff. At the quantum level there are a lot of counterintuitive and seemingly impossible things going on - but there ARE things going on that directly effect matter, which itself might be merely energy, waves, etc. It's also totally mind boggling to get your head around Special Relativity, and the speed of light (what IS light, anyhow?) being a constant while time and matter are mutable. But this all involves stuff, or the effect of strange energies on stuff.

God is intangible so far as I can tell - is the quintessential "unseen." That means God is not a thing, or stuff in the way that our discursive minds are fashioned to understand. We cannot measure God so God cannot be considered "real" in the sense that we normally consider stuff which we can sense, measure, and "know." Hence, all efforts to scientifically "prove" God's existence will always come up short. To many, God is a kind of spiritual placebo. However, if you go on and say God is an idea, you have gone too far, for an idea is a thing, and as mentioned, God is "no thing." This is not rhetorical.

This all confounds the rational mind, which demands something to grab onto, and rejects as unreal anything that the mind cannot get hold of in the normal ways.

An interesting though inexact analogy is gravity, which has a profound effect on matter.

Interesting topic.

JL

Gene

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
Nice summation, Largo!

gm
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Jan 22, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
"Since no one knows God, or can know god."

You present this as though you knew this for an absolute fact: that throughout all time and space, no person has EVER known God. I will ask: How do you know that?

I think one of the hardest things about anything spiritual is dealing with doubt and not knowing in the fact and figures kind of way. At least it is for me. I'm not sure that I KNOW a damn thing about any of it.

JL
WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
Vrindavan

Raised there? He's very fortunate. It's the center of the universe.
Gene

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
"On the Origin of Species" is brilliant. It changed scientific thought and direction from the time it was published until now – with modest revisions due our progress in observational ability and analysis. Everyone should read this book. One of my favorites. Darwin was able to connect the dots that he observed. A great mind. A seminal work.

gm
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Jan 22, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
"Newsflash, if you define something as the "quintessential unseen" it will never be seen, regardless of whatever else you happen to see."

This presumes that the only way to "know" something is to see it, smell it, hear it, taste it, feel it, think about it and measure it. In other words, "knowing" is a brain function, something the brain does. But this view is mistaken, according to many neuroscientists. Knowing and consciousness are not things the brain does, they are what the brain IS.

But any way you shake it, it will always come back to: Who am I? What IS this life I have? And how deep can I take these questions? Some sit on the sidelines and snipe - like I'm doing here. Others put in the effort to find out for themselves. And that takes a lot of time to let the mind start to be quiet.

JL

Gene

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
del_cross,

It is thick, but that was the style of the time. That takes nothing away from how much it has changed perceptions over time. Slug through it. How can you knott enjoy a sea story from a ship named the "Beagle?"

God bless,
Gene
WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
Definitely never ever Darwin. He's the rascal that misleads anyone who follows him.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 22, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
I kind of think this thread has taken a turn for the worse. Nobody is listening to anybody. Yall haven't been even attempting to hear eachother. Let alone answer eachother's questions thoughtfully. Lots of hot air and defensiveness.

Anybody willing to step back and engage in a healthy discussion?

Howbout this. I'll go buy and read any book or text the atheists in the room want me to. If they'll do the same. I got a couple good reads, and I won't use the Bible. Then we can talk out what we've read and hash it out.

I'm interested in seeing where the atheists get some of their ideas.

Dr. F, Paul, Wes, you guys interested?

It'll be better than the mousewheel yall are running on now.

Any takers?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 22, 2009 - 08:43pm PT
Largo writes

"
But any way you shake it, it will always come back to: Who am I? What IS this life I have? And how deep can I take these questions? Some sit on the sidelines and snipe - like I'm doing here. Others put in the effort to find out for themselves. And that takes a lot of time to let the mind start to be quiet. "

Wise words although I bet you're not always on the sidelines.

Best to have a will and intention to be open to investigation and insight about this important topic.

After all, to assume, due to the short-sightedness of some religious interpretations, that nothing is possible, that nothing is there, is certainly betting against yourself.

After all, if this life and this world is all there is, and we can see that most people neither really like themselves nor their lives, then life is crap and then you die.

Personally, I have to say that the years I've spent picking the wheat from the chaff have been very fruitful for me. I'm feeling very deeply blessed and really happy. It's not based on any smug ideas or superiority, but a love in my heart and peace of mind that's not based on any concepts but rather seems to spring from my essential "soul" Sometimes, I can't even contain more fullness and joy.

With that blessing, I can see the beauty in everyone and know I'm not above anyone. Not trying to preach but I think we're at a crossroads as humanity so it only feels fair to share that actual experience and practical results in the spiritual realm are possible. They don't depend on blind faith but a self experimental unlearning of our negative and habitual thinking, and openness to grace.

There are many people who know this from practical experience and who won't beat you over the head with it. The silent understanding is to let everyone have their own lives and free will. Perhaps that leads people to think "nobody knows."

It's more a case of, if you know, you don't need to make a lot of noise about it, nor push or judge others to accept you ways.

Peace

Karl
WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
micronut -- "I kind of think this thread has taken a turn for the worse."

Nah it's doing great. Grow some balls man. We're all one happy family, with lurkers in the wood works all rollin their eyeballs.

This is the life. In the old daze guys in the know flew in on their magic carpets. Now those carpets lay on the floors lifeless trampled by feet unknown, replaced by inferior carpets of metal that roar.

Magic .... it's what makes the world go round.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 22, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
Alright Werner, you're right, the fact that this post is still alive means its worth stayin' in the fray. I gotta eat some dinner, then I might check in to see if Weschrist has seen the light.

Stranger things have happened.

And anyway, it took four hundred and something posts to draw Largo into the ring. Maybe around 800 we'll attract some real climbers.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 22, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
micro, "real climbers" ? Sheee for quite a few years I lived with a real climber. I did not feel his ways, thoughts, ideas and philos's were any better than mine. And now he's not here and I be climbing. Not great climbing, but I can think.... :D and if he were here he would support mi thoughts.... Peace lrl

Del cross, the unexpected happens. Old dogs can figure out new stuff. I would not discount debate or debate that works change. :D Lynnie

WBraun

climber
Jan 22, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
Why should I agree to read Darwin when I already have, and researched it to the core?
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 22, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
Yeah, giggles skip...and no fatal attraction here. :D lrl

del, always appreciate yo imput. Seriously, we may be seeing him in the clouds. So enjoying the imput and enjoyment of thoughts connected....tho not necessarily agreeing, Need to share the importance of Life and Eternal Life.

Love, Peace and Joy ...Lynnie
WBraun

climber
Jan 23, 2009 - 01:09pm PT
Dr F

Just go on and enjoy your life. You're a waste of time for me.

I can fill this whole thread with knowledge for Darwin's mistakes. This is not the place for it.

When you so made your statements that GOD does not exist and can't be proven I just came in to say that's not true at all, and he does exists and can be proven.

Your fundamental logic is very poor for claiming to be a scientist.

Atheists commonly accuse theists of hav­ing created the idea of God to satisfy certain psychological needs. A more reasonable person, they say, can do without this crutch and instead learn from the cold, hard facts of science, whose findings inevitably lead us to conclude there's no God.

Atheists, however, are not free of biases and psychological needs, and these influence both their experimental findings and their attitude toward various scientific theories. Though they may flatter themselves, they are not immune to seeing things the way they want. The theory of Darwinian evolution is a case in point.

"Darwin made it possible to be an intellectu­ally fulfilled atheist," says Richard Dawkins, professor of the public understanding of science at Oxford University. For those with atheistic tendencies, Darwin was a savior. He made it possible for the scientists to do away with the need for God. His theory supposedly shows that all life forms evolved through strictly mechanistic processes.


Now that is the starting point.

You can take it as far as you want, but without me.

Like I said you're a huge waste of time .....
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 23, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
This thread seems to have drifted (a long while ago) into the classic is there a God or not argument. Although I am an atheist, I do have issues with certain religions more than others, and it's basically with how far from science and common sense they diverge. Here is my list of core beliefs, arranged in order of increasing incredulity.

1. Believe in an afterlife. (Just about all but Judaism). Easy to see why people want to believe this (although not me).

2. Don't believe in evolution (many Christian branches). Admittedly, takes a pretty good background in science to really understand it, although the evidence is overwhelming.

3. Believe that the Bible (or some other book) was "written" by God and is infallible (many religions). Hard for me to understand that anyone can believe this. All you have to do is look into the research done, or, for that matter, just start cherry-picking passages from the old testament and see how they hold up.

4. Believe in a 6,000 year old earth (evangelical Christians, others). Again, it does take just a little bit of scientific background. A one-inch bed of shale probably represents more time than 6,000 years.

5. Just about anything that the Mormans believe. Where do I start?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 23, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
The proof of god's existence or non existence is the responsibility of the theist not the atheist. If you posit something as true for which the evidence is ambiguous at best, and then claim that because others can't prove you wrong your posit is true, your dealing in the illogical. The theist can only posit individual anecdotal experience without transcendental evidence as proof for the existence of God. The real proof that god doesn't exist, certainly as a personal deity, is the inability of theists to prove that he does. Dr. F you have done a noble job here and should be cheered for your thoughtful, rational analysis. With continuous negative remarks of a personal nature toward those not agreeing with him, Wbraun is surely damaging his "karma" and will likely come back in the next life as a rectal thermometer.
WBraun

climber
Jan 23, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
roehl

I will likely come back in the next life as a rectal thermometer.

Hahahaha LOL that's a good one. I like that.

If you believe for an instant that I even remotely care if you agree with me or not, you're definitely dreaming.

I said GOD can be proven and he exists. I never said I'm going to prove it on an internet forum, and neither are you going to prove he doesn't exist on an internet forum. Arguments and debates only go so far, until they proceed in a circular fashion.

Arguments and debates then become useless.

You are a fool.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 23, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
The argument isn't circular, its only fault is that it lacks focus. I worry when you call me a fool what with your considerable expertise in the matter.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
Jan 23, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
"I said GOD can be proven"

I know you like Yosar and all Werner, but maybe you should give this a go. For if it were true, you'd be the first. It's doubtful you'd have to work again after that. It's a big leap to go from belief/faith to proof. One that hasn't been bridged yet.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 23, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
DR,
I'll go buy Why Darwin Matters and
God, A Failed Hypothesis if I can find 'em today.

And Yall know I'm a christian so I'm trying to show I'm keeping an open mind.

Any Atheists care to go out and buy either.....

---Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Lee Strobel (Dry but powerful, written by an ex-atheist)

---A Case for Faith also by Strobel

---Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

---Beyond the Cosmos by Hugh Ross (HEAVY. Written by a Christian Astrophysicist respected in his field who uses multidimensionality and physics to make a sound case for the existence of a creator)

Any body gonna step up to the plate here?

WBraun

climber
Jan 23, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
Yes

The minute one uses theory it's useless for proving the absolute.

The absolute is not a theory.

God is not a theory.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 23, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
Micronut, I haven't read any of those books, in particular. I have tried to slog my way through some similar books that I got from my father, and frankly, I just can't very far. I'm pretty good at spotting bad science and bad logic, and, at least the books I've read, are full of both.

That being said, I'd be interested (in a perverse kind of way) to read someone claiming to use string theory, multidimensionality and physics to PROVE the existence of a creator.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 23, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
ok.....my bad, I just went and pulled Hugh Ross off the shelf to look at it.

HE DOESN'T USE STRING THEORY in that book...that was another book that was using it a basic illustration....

AND....I've re-worded my post to say that he uses astrophysics and high end mathematics as an interesting take on making a case for a creator. Great for the intellectual mind.

HE DOES NOT PROVE the existence of God. Sorry to use such absolutes. Only God can prove He exists.

Check it out though. Its a great read.
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 23, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
I'm not sue any man can "Prove" God exists to another on his own merit or academic prowess.

I do however believe that God has the ability to prove himself, beyond all question to man. He has done it for me. I have seen him do it for others, much more hardened and skeptical than the guys on this site. Ive seen supernatural changes in lives that go beyond any explanation of science, philosophy, psychology or other creation of man.

I can only bear witness to the change in my own life and the things I have witnessed first hand.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 23, 2009 - 07:59pm PT
If God doesn't have the ability to prove himself then how can he be omnipotent? How can he be God?

There are philosophical proofs that exist as ontological reality. Numerical relationships that describe the phenomenological world with certain accuracy are an example. These numerical relationships that describe things like the area of a circle or square or whatever they may, these are transcendent truths that are so exactly the same in all human experience as to be the same certain experience to all and therefore must exist outside the mind alone.

These relationships must be objectively real outside the realm of human experience because of their transcendent universal nature which can be proved by the simplest measurement.

These relationships will exist after we are all gone and after all humanity is gone as well.

If the world were nothing but illusion this would not be true. If personal subjective experience was all human beings knew this would not be true as well.

The sleep of reason produces monsters.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 23, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
C.S. Lewis was a shill for Christianity. But he said that either Christ was God or a liar or a madman. The idea that Christ was simply a good spiritual guy, a kind of prophet, or deeply religious character was absolutely unacceptable to Lewis. How you gonna prove Christ was God?
rockermike

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
Hard words weschrist; but you have a point and as I mentioned up thread this is a question that confounds many faithful people.

here is a fairly standard Christian answer (I'm not endorsing it)
http://www.carm.org/questions/suffering.htm

But your portrait of karma is a little off base. Karma, as properly understood is not God's punishment. It is merely a reflection of our own souls back at us. In Hinduism this whole experience of material and sensual life must be understood first and foremost as an illusion. Something like a dream, or a nightmare more properly. If you are devoured by a tiger in a dream you aren't destroyed in reality, but if you are at all sensitive you are changed from the experience.

Hindus measure time in billions and trillions of years and lives are understood to be repeating cycles, millions of times, birth, old age, disease and death. The soul cycles through over and over. From the human perspective much seems "evil". From the eternal perspective this temporal reality is something like a reform school. As you think, as you act, as you relate to reality, so you will see reality. We make our own beds, now we must live in them. God's love and our love of God is the foundation and destination of all of reality. be patient.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 23, 2009 - 10:04pm PT
Have posted on this thread. Much posted here includes individuals life philosophies et al.

I am living a life right now that is so difficult I could quit ....almost did today....on God.

The life, theories, etc. spewed on this thread are good sounding.

But when your entire world crashes down around you, one needs to think and process the hey out of the disaster.

That's where the jesus thing on faith kicks in.

It's either there and you have faith .... or not. I choose to believe....sometimes I feel like I may die doing it, but I do.

Yikes ! Sorry if this does not make sense to some. :D
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 23, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
del cross, nothing I read or hear could cause me to lose faith in jesus. Life and living it each day is the challenge of belief. We be good so far .... today was horrendous in challenge.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 23, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
The evidence for God and for Christ is what it has always been, individual eyewitnesses. "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands concerning the word of life -- the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us -- that which we have seen and heard we proclaim to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ." [1 John 1:1-3]

The reaction of the skeptics is also what it's always been. As to the Resurrection: "So the other disciples told [Thomas] 'We have seen the Lord.' But he said to them, 'Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.'" [John 20:25] In other words, you say you saw it, but it's so incredible, I can't believe you unless I see it myself.

I find that an honest response, and I think Jesus does, too. After all, he doesn't zap Thomas; he appears to him and shows him the proof he asks. God doesn't despise doubters, and neither should those of us who believe because of our personal experience. Jesus confronts honest doubt with Himself -- for those who desire to know Him. In that sense, therefore, I disagree with the idea that God cannot prove His existence. Rather, He chooses not to reveal Himself to some who will not acknowledge their need of Him and His salvation, and who therefore don't seek Him.

Even there, though, we need to be careful. Jesus revealed Himself mostly to those who knew they were unrighteous, but not always, else, why appear to Saul of Tarsus?

The reaction to speaking in tongues is also unchanged. "And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, 'What does this mean?' But others mocking said, 'They are filled with new wine.'" [Acts 2:12-13] That reaction is also understandable. Paul the Apostle warned the Corinthians of undisciplined speaking in tongues throughout 1 Cor. 14, in particular. It's hardly surprising that an outsider hearing what sounds like unintelligable babbling would think he was seeing and hearing only fakery and nonsense.

The proof there is also experiential. I have spiritual gifts, but neither tongues nor their interpretation are mine. Still, I have enough life experience with the Holy Spirit in the 35 years since my conversion to know -- for myself -- that the gift is real. It's really the aspect of spiritual gifts of healing that I understood this thread to be about from Rockermike's original post.

Anyway, as I said earlier, the choice in belief is yours -- for now. I can hardly blame you for disbelieving me or the others whose experience differs from yours, but I also cannot refrain from urging you to seek the LORD while he may be found.

Further affiant sayeth not.

John
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 23, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
Paul wrote

"The proof of god's existence or non existence is the responsibility of the theist not the atheist"

It's nobody's responsibility. Whose responsibility is it to prove orgasms exist?

It's merely the quest of somebody who has never had one.

Say you are a character in a dream, how would you prove it?

Folks say an omnipotent God would could prove God exists. It's pretty obvious from the mystery of this world that either no God exists or God has zero will to make God's existence obvious.

Maybe that would spoil the game eh?

Big walls and offwidth are pure suffering, yet we do it for the adventure and experience.

LIfe is like that too. This isn't a "play" planet.

Peace

Karl
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
If someone posits an idea that is without substantive evidence and then creates a surrounding morality predicating laws that must be obeyed by the general population of a given society, then I would say there is an obligation to prove the "reality" of that idea. Theists have an obligation to prove the existence of God for precisely the above reasons.

If I declare that aliens from another galaxy had visited me and left me with a book of laws that I swear they left me and we had all better obey these laws including the imprisonment of all right handed individuals. Don't you think I'd have an obligation to prove the reality of my experience?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
All democracies must be mediated by a bill of rights lest we suffer the tyranny of the mob.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
Our bill of rights is ultimately based on self evident truths, too bad god isn't a self evident truth. Wouldn't that make all this a lot easier?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
Deist perhaps, Christian never in the orthodox sense. Jefferson had more in common with Hadrian than he did Christ. Have you ever wondered why D. C. is filled with Roman and Greek Architecture? The Supreme Court, Capitol Building, even theWhite House all take offs on pagan Roman temples. Jefferson was no Pentecostal. He had more in common with Orpheus.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
The Pantheon was built in the second century CE well into the Roman Imperial period not the republic. It was built by Hadrian and much imitated in the Renaissance.

I didn't say Jefferson worshipped multiple gods. I was simply pointing out his and the founding fathers delight in the idea of reason which the Pantheon and other Roman buildings are based on. My argument against "Religious Faith" is based on the same reason as opposed to your argument which is based on emotion and subjective experience.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
The first Pantheon was built By M. Agrippa but the structure that stands in Rome today was built or rebuilt entirely by Hadrian and each brick used in its construction is marked with with his seal.

It is the Hadrianic version of architecture that so influenced Palladio and others in the Renaissance and eventually T. Jefferson. You don't like being wrong and I understand that, but in this case you are wrong.

The Pantheon is based on a platonic form: the sphere. Platonic forms are often used as a proof of transcendent relationships and structures that indicate objectivity in the phenomenological world as I mentioned in an above post.

And please quit calling me names.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
Oh my.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 24, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
So is Jefferson some saint now, a holy figure? Just because he's a founding father doesn't have any bearing about his personal beliefs about religion.

He was a great man, but let's not annoint him to sainthood.

I can't believe you're using Jefferson quotes to make a religious point...he was just a man.
WBraun

climber
Jan 24, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
roehl whined to skipt -- "And please quit calling me names."

What a whinny piss poor little baby.

Grow a sac dude.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
Wbraun -- Another erudite argument from the enlightened spirit. You just keep that good karma coming and I'll see you in the medicine cabinet.
WBraun

climber
Jan 24, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
You're a complete idiot.

I've never ever claimed nor said I was enlightened.

I'll see you in hell .....
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 24, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
I'd say we're all already there, the other place too.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 24, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
It's sadly ironic that Wes and Paul post quotes from people and claim that to be 'proof' against a higher power. It's a silly premise to base your point on. Think about it.

Keep tryin' though.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
Wbraun- You enjoy hell, sounds like you're already there, I won't be there. Hell is for believers.

Fascinating to see just how intolerant religious people are. All they need is a little power and they'll burn you at the stake or worse. Better believe what they do.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 24, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
Wes, you're a very interesting man. Someday we'll climb together, pussy, and I'll show you how to knock down 5.9's in style...maybe even a 5.10 or two. Y'know why, cause I climb with a higher power, dude.

(I am coming to you neck of the woods this summer, Emerald Bay beeatch, and a guide would be nice)

Actually you're in Sacto now, huh? Well, we'll hook up and I'll show you!!! 5.9's!!!! look out!
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
You Christians prove yourselves by your actions. "Faith without works is death."
A lot of nastiness on your posts. Too bad, it's a necessary and important discussion.
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 24, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
Nice one Bluering!



I have faith that there is no god, at least one that sits on a cloud looking like Moses or crowley, beyond that it gets, er, complicated...

I was glad to get post 600 on such an unlikeley thread, though
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 24, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
Seems to me that the world has more woes than can be blamed on bad religion, or missuses, thereof.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
Never said religion is responsible for all the worlds problems. Part of the problem here is nobody seems to be reading the posts. My only real goal here is to get post 666 and then this will all be over and I can get out of here.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
Have read Hitchens but more importantly Bertrand Russell and CS Lewis and Joseph Campbell and many many others. I think I understand the subject.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 24, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
"Wbraun- You enjoy hell, sounds like you're already there, I won't be there. Hell is for believers."

The degree of luxury in Werner's lifestyle over many decades is Hell class. Sleeping in vans and tents, enduring pain al the time. He doesn't seem to notice.

If sent to Hell (perhaps by clerical error) I imagine he'd look around and say "Is dat all U got?. Yur a bunch of Whiners!!"

Back to the feedback loop:

What to say about Jefferson? A great man (and all great men have strengths and flaws) Believed in freedom but had slaves. Questioned the Bible and yet took the time to write it down. What does any of that prove?

Fact is, you could believe or disbelieve words in any book and that would only say so much about a person. We all have different levels of understanding behind the words and concepts we believe in, and we are only in a state of active belief a tiny percentage of the time. When you wake up in the morning, before you pick your head up, you hardly believe anything.

Even if the scriptures of any faith were completely accurate, having a real comprehension of a spiritual reality is as beyond the framework of human understanding as your dog's understanding of the stock market. We're locked in our perspective as humans living in time, confined by space, and processing with brains that are equipped like the first black and white TV.

The quality of a person's heart is what they carry around with them each moment. How they regard each person expresses their state of being. That goes beyond any lip service to any scripture. (like the inquisitors who tortured for Jesus, or radical Muslims stoning women for Allah)

The clarity of a person's connection with that higher power is evidenced to themselves in honest moments by the Peace and Love they live with every day (or lack of it), alone and with company, no matter what belief accompanies it. (it's true that some lie to themselves better than others, but I'm talking about when the BS is stripped away)

Peace

Karl

Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 24, 2009 - 08:24pm PT
Joseph Campbell is the most germaine in this, to my thinking.

CS Lewis. Wasn't he a lapsed Christian who came back to the flock? -as well as being the voice of Treebeard, of course.

did he play hackey sack with Graham Greene?

about 60 to go?


on a more serious note, good points Karl.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 08:27pm PT
This just seems like ambiguous, nebulous, ephemeral nothingness. If spiritual thought is everything or anything to everybody then how is it anything?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Jan 24, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
Karl, you're weird in a good way, kinda like Werner. You guys connect on a different level. Which is why I know that with faith and knowledge of faith, comes understanding. You two weirdos may be Hinduistic, but you understand things. I know, however, you probably think I don't with all my war-mogering rhetoric and all, but I do. Maybe I'm a work in progress, or maybe you are, bottom line...it's all about loving each other (in a non-homo way) and loving the One.

Love in our language is so distorted as a word. "I love pizza"

On second thought I grieve for our society's future.....
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 24, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
Hey Blue-Bro

I've studied all the religions and particularly some Eastern Ones but I've come to see the Spirit behind them without blind belief in the letter of any of them. If I got to church, my heart opens wide even as I take all the words with grains of salt,

And so I believe with Jesus in Judging not.

Even as we fight online tooth and nail, my heart does not looks down on you but rather sees you in the light of Love. That's what I've chosen to feed within myself and I regard my enemies as friends who don't know it yet.

There's no doubt that my vision is limited as well. I'm kind of hesitant to write about things like religion and politics online as it would seem to separate me in an ideological way from folks whom I'd otherwise get along great with. Plus I guide so it's got to be bad for business to be polemical.

Still, life on this planet is in a precarious state. We're all racing against death even during good times, so I feel it's important to work on these issues that really bear on ultimate questions.

at a minimum, learning to dialog with folks who disagree with us is a quality that serves humanity, right or left, believer or not.

PEace

Karl
Jennie

Trad climber
Idaho Falls
Jan 24, 2009 - 09:48pm PT
I question Thomas Jefferson's moral authority to pass enlightened judgement on God and religion....beyond personal opinion and commentary

He held slaves yet wrote against slavery. Jefferson's views on race were appaling by todays standards and he fathered children by his own slaves. He was an avid foxhunter and kept foxhounds and horses especially for persueing the blood sport.

The language in the Declaration of Independance was largely taken from articles of the Iroquois Federation and writings of Thomas Paine.

Yes, he was a patriot and, no, we encounter problems judging our forefathers by todays standards. Few contributed more to the birth of the nation. But evidences of Jefferson's own moral confusion invites doubt about his judgements on God, religion, Christian scripture, etc.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 24, 2009 - 09:53pm PT
Yup, the more we know about anyone, the more suspect their views become.

But the same could be said of St. Paul.

He never met Jesus, was present at the stoning of an important follower of Christ, and set out to persecute the Christians.

Yet it is his interpretation of Christianity that has prevailed (some say due to the spread of the faith to pagans via his ministry while Christianity didn't much catch on around Jerusalem)

and many Christian and all academic scholars doubt that many writings attributed to Paul in the New Testament are even his. (pseudo-epigraphical writings were very common and more accepted in the ancient world)

Kingdom of Heaven is Within

Peace

Karl
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 24, 2009 - 09:58pm PT
Jefferson was more a child of the Enlightenment than something as peripheral as Iroquois govt. The Enlightenment was by and large a move toward a more secular understanding of the universe and really ultimately put an end to slavery. Prior to this great movement in human history, slavery was an accepted institution in cultures around the world since the beginning of culture. The old testament even encourages the practice for the Israelites. If we condemn Jefferson for slave ownership do we condemn Jehovah for encouraging same?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 24, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
Jefferson's relationship with Sally Hemmings after his wife death is more properly seen as doomed by the social conventions of the time. The personal letters indicate a deep relationship that lasted many years.


Foxes are vermin in a farming setting. Horses love to jump. No moral judgement need be applied to that topic.

The founding fathers were all versed in both the Greek and Roman classics, often in the original language. Contemporary writings only speak of the native American political organization and monotheistic religious beliefs in passing and comparison. The idea that American Democracy was based in any way on native American systems is false and a blatantly fraudulent attempt to deconstruct the Greco Roman / Judeo Christian basis for American Democracy. Correlation is not causation!

Read the Mayflower Compact, early sermons and DeToqueville's Democracy in America. The Federalist Papers too if you want to understand our origins.
Jennie

Trad climber
Idaho Falls
Jan 24, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
"The old testament even encourages the practice (slavery) for the Israelites. If we condemn Jefferson for slave ownership do we condemn Jehovah for encouraging same?"

Mr. Roehl, I believe Thomas Jefferson condemned himself, through his own writings, on slavery. Yours or my condemnation, in our own time, may not have significance, judging in historical context---but Jefferson knew involuntary servitude was wrong, yet continued the practice.

Israelite's slaves? Are we using spurious translation from the Hebrew text to mistake servants for slaves?

"The idea that American Democracy was based in any way on native American systems is false and a blatantly fraudulent attempt to deconstruct the Greco Roman / Judeo Christian basis for American Democracy. Correlation is not causation! "

"Read the Mayflower Compact, early sermons and DeToqueville's Democracy in America. The Federalist Papers too if you want to understand our origins."


I have read them Mr TGT. Perhaps you should read the writings of Thomas Paine and Iroquois Federation then reread the Declaration.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 24, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
Hi Karl,
Like Bluey, I always enjoy yours and WBraun's posts. Neither of yo go for the jugular and you both postulate ideas nicely.

Really never necessary to go for the throat when discussing ideas, is it ? Especially these thoughts and philosophies which should stem from love for one another....mixed with joy and peace.

Shoooo guys, I have learned just how hard life can be for a person over the past year. Wouldn't it be Grate if we were there for each other...to care and support and even help in real down to earth ways, even if we disagree.

Think that's the real meaning of "Quote"...religion and god. Love God and love each other as you love yourself.

Yo, Life is way to short to bicker. If anyone out there has someone they love...love them and treat them kindly. If you have someone out there yo don't like....love them and treat them kindly. Our lives are so short lived, like a vapor and then gone says the bible.

With a fire burning brightly in the fireplace and tired from a hard days work, Peace....Lynne
WBraun

climber
Jan 24, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
I always love Jennie's posts.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 24, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
80% of all victims of trafic accidents have eaten carrots in the previous week.

Carrots do not cause traffic accidents.

Theuclidites, Periclies and numerous other Roman and Greek politicians are the progenators of western Democracy. Not to merntion the British parlamentary tradition fron 1070 onward.

(due deference given to the Mormon mythology about native Americans.)

Tom Payne was a rabbel rouser who after the success of the revolution tried without success to start a rebelion back in the isles. He was a fine writer and propagandist properly seen in the radical Democratic Athenian tradition but has no connection with the Iriquois.

Documents of the time about the Iriquoi read more " hey that's cool they are like us" than "That's a great idea" Again refer to the Mayflower Compact that was written before any significant contact with the locals.
Jennie

Trad climber
Idaho Falls
Jan 24, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
Again, sir, my object in point was not to describe who were the true "progenitors of democracy", but the origins of the language Jefferson used in the Declaration of Independance.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 24, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
Go back and study Athens and the radical democracy.

Wiki is often "conventional" wisdom for what it's worth.

Locke didn't come up with it ex nhilo.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 24, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
Karl,

I hadn't intended to say any more on this thread, but I need to contest one misconception. Saul of Tarsus met Jesus on the the road to Damascus. He always claimed apostolic authority, and could not have done so without the body of believers accepting his claim to have seen the risen Christ.

Even so, I don't think he would disagree with your characterization of him as immoral. He always called himself the worst of sinners, and derived his moral authority not from his own life, but from Christ's.

JOhn
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 24, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
John writes

"I hadn't intended to say any more on this thread, but I need to contest one misconception. Saul of Tarsus met Jesus on the the road to Damascus. He always claimed apostolic authority, and could not have done so without the body of believers accepting his claim to have seen the risen Christ. "

You are welcome to have your say, but hearing the voice of a Spirit Christ may, or may not, be the same as having spent a few years with him personally like the other disciples did. We have to take his word for it, just we have to take the word for thousands who have heard (or thought they heard) Spirit Christ's voice since then (including those who claim "God told me to skin you alive") You have to wonder the mystery of Jesus, with all his knowledge and power, making the chief apostle a guy who never spent a physical day with him, while training 12 other guys to spread his message.

To take an extreme example, if Osama Bin Laden, (whose views on serious Christians are far more generous than Paul's were at the time he was headed to Damascus) were to claim to have gone blind by Jesus grace and turned into a vocal proponent of Christianity, emphasizing a different aspect of Christ than the words Christ was said to have spoken, how would you gauge the veracity of such a claim?)

After all, Paul's mission was to extinguish Christianity, while Bin Laden would consider Christians to be in a sister religion that also expected Christ to return at the end of the world to take charge on judgement day

The fact that it's documented in the Bible that Paul and the in-person Jerusalem disciples did not agree on some important doctrines (at least until they met and hashed it out perhaps) is testament to the room for doubt whether Paul's version of Christianity should be sacrosanct.

Peace

Karl
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 24, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
Karl, what does that mean, "room for doubt whether Paul's version of christianity should be sacrosanct?"

Paul was clearly an ambassador for jesus.

Paul and Peter had some issues but I never thought they were large or unresolveable.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 25, 2009 - 12:15am PT
Lynnie wrote

"Karl, what does that mean, "room for doubt whether Paul's version of christianity should be sacrosanct?"

Paul was clearly an ambassador for jesus.

Paul and Peter had some issues but I never thought they were large or unresolveable."

All that is a matter of opinion. Remember, there was serious arguments about whether non-Jews should even be allowed to be Christians and whether they would be required to follow scriptural laws (Circumcision was a big one!)

Do ambassadors always know and understand those whom they promote?

Didn't Jesus, in the Gospel, officially pass the torch and authority to Peter. How come Peter and Paul disagree?

I have beefs with Paul. He turned Christianity toward a formula of accepting the murder of Jesus as so overwhelmingly important, that he almost never mentions any other teaching or story of Jesus. Check it out. Paul ignores the teachings that Jesus preached in favor of the formula of accepting Jesus death as the central AND secondary teaching.

I think that's a shame. If you ask me, Jesus dying was hardly a sacrifice. It was coming here in the first place that was the sacrifice.

But, I'm just providing food for thought. It's worthwhile to study the Bible scholastically as well as theologically to see how it fits into other literature of the ancient world, their cultures, Judaism (Christ was an observant Jew after all) and also understand textual criticism regarding the writing and editing of the Bible.

That's if you care to get technical about doctrine and need to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God. If you'd rather just Love unconditionally and seek Spirit and Christ, I wouldn't worry about your fate.

Peace

Karl
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Jan 25, 2009 - 12:38am PT
Was Jesus incarnate?
or a construct?
Would either one be better than the other?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 25, 2009 - 12:58am PT
Screw you Weschrist, you sacrilegious pile of steaming dog crap!
















Ok. Just kidding. I know you don't like things boring.










I like you too.


Which doesn't mean so much since I've pretty much decided to like everybody.



But still, appreciate the reflection

Peace

Karl
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 25, 2009 - 01:15am PT
There are some fascinating, and only partly answered questions, about how Saul of Tarsus managed to take control of and reorient an obscure Jewish sect, and turn it into what became Christianity. The takeover artists on Wall Street couldn't hold a candle to him, nor could the marketing experts.

Some religious experts refer to Christianity as Paulism, to emphasize what he did. His reworking of the early dogma and myths, his break from Judaism, and his reorientation of the preachings so that they were more palatable to a largely gentile audience, were brilliant.

And all this at a time when the believers were starting to figure out that their messiah wouldn't be returning any time soon after all, and when the Jews were having their own rough times with a fellow named Titus.
WBraun

climber
Jan 25, 2009 - 01:49am PT
How can the messiah return when he never ever left?

If he left we would instantly die.
WBraun

climber
Jan 26, 2009 - 11:35pm PT
Dr_Fail

Your post proves you are dead, and a walking corpse.

There's no life in you. Just a mechanical robot.

You're toast ........
asioux

Trad climber
Rancho Cucamonga
Jan 27, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
The Bible belive it or not is our owners manual on how we should live. The bible is Gods word for us and God sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins! Jesus Christ spoke of his father and performed miricles to show that he is the son of God. Jesus Christ knew his fate, he for told his fate to his prophets. It is written in the bible in the book of John when Christ was crucified. The bible was written thousands of years ago and every word is true! In order to have eternal life you must accept Jesus Christ as your savior and belive in him. Have faith in God and live by his commandments. would you rather spend eternity in Hell or eternity in Heaven? I fear God and I hope you too, because I wouldn't want that punishement for anybody spending eternity in hell. I'm not perfect. But everyday Satan trys to tempt me with sin. Lets face it this word is wicked and there is a lot of deceit. The heart is the most deceitful. The time is now! To really open your eyes and your mind and really search the truth about God. Jesus is coming soon, the prophecys are coming true. The Rapture is very near and I won't want you to have to suffer that horrible 7 years of tribulation if your left behind when Christ returns. This is serious stuff man. The earth we now live on is our temporary home everything we have is not really ours. It is loan to us by GOD! The rock that we climb is a beautiful creation that God gave to us. Have you ever truely sincerly thanked God for it. Or even thanked who ever you belive in, perhaps you don't belive in anything. Let me tell you this you think the walls in Yosemite, Zion are great thats just a little teaser of what God has in store for us.
I ask you as a fellow brother a climber and a friend, I don't know all of you here, I may have crossed your path at places that I have climbed. I know I sat at a table in the valley cafe with Wbraun having breakfest and coffee with my friend(my offwidth partner there) that I climb with in the Valley.
Do me a favor. Do some research on God. Perhaps you are very knowledgeable with God and Jesus Christ and belive and have Christ in your heart and truely mean it. God Bless you. If you don't already. I ask you to give God a chance. Get a bible. Check out this website. The Rapture, Mark of the beast. It talks about when Jesus Christ returns and what happens with the Anti Christ and 666. Thats enough to put the fear of God in me and accept Christ as my savior and have faith in the unseen. Trust your faith have faith in God and watch his works. Pray, read the Bible have faith and act upon your faith. Also check this out, read up on HarvestCrusades and Pastor Greg Laurie. I hope that I lead someone here on this site to God and join me in Heaven one day.
As your those of you that I have offended I apologize, but when everything comes to past. You will be blown away that it actually happened and I hope you think to yourself, I should have listened... I share this with you all from my heart...
BBA

Social climber
West Linn OR
Jan 27, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
I read "The Origin of Species" in three weeks. I read the Bible aloud in Spanish 10 times, literally - I was using it as a means to learn the language - and it took three years. I can tell you which one is coherent and has meaning, but I won't because it wouldn't matter one iota. Just try reading them in your language of choice.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 28, 2009 - 12:23am PT
Hey SkipT, Dr. F has been attacked personally. It doesn't just exist in his mind read the thread. Why do you have to call people boneheads or say they're dead or toast or whatever? Why not lighten up and have a civil discussion? He makes good points and you avoid them. I don't get it. Where's god's love? Peace?
WBraun

climber
Jan 28, 2009 - 12:30am PT
Dr F has been attacked!

hahahaha It's the end of the world .....
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 28, 2009 - 12:42am PT
No, the end of the world is just your enlightend illusion, enjoy!!!
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 28, 2009 - 12:45am PT
Oh. I forgot, hahahahaha!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 28, 2009 - 03:28am PT
Asioux writes

"...Get a bible. Check out this website. The Rapture, Mark of the beast. It talks about when Jesus Christ returns and what happens with the Anti Christ and 666......"

When you are deciding whom to persecute as the anti-christ, it might be helpful to know that the earliest known manuscripts of Revelations have the mark of the beast as "616."

Most scholars believe both 616 and 666, and all of the book of Revelation, was referring to the Roman Emperors of the time. There is not doubt from Christian scripture that Jesus and the Apostles were expecting their kingdom within a generation.

There are over 5000 known manuscripts of the Bible (hand written) from which all translations are based on. After extensive study, it has been determine that no two are alike. They all have little or big differences.

Sadly, even the story of Jesus keeping the adulterer from being Stoned was not added until the year 1200 or so.

So it's best not to turn any book into an idolatry. It wasn't even available to Christians until pretty recently (after the printing press and after the Catholic church stopped fighting to prevent it from being translated)

I think this idea of an infallible bible is a protestant response to "an infallible Pope" and the Muslim claim of a perfect book copied from heaven.

Peace

Karl

Gene

climber
Jan 28, 2009 - 11:23am PT
Karl,

I think "papal infallibility" is a recent addition to RCC dogma, like within the last 150 years or so.

gm
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 28, 2009 - 11:35am PT
Thats enough to put the fear of God in me and accept Christ as my savior and have faith in the unseen.

Scare tactics. Been working for thousand of years...
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 28, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
I think the problem with this thread has been the confusion of really diverse views of Christianity and faith. There are orthodox Christians (those that follow the Nicaean creed and insist on belif in the deity of Christ, trinity, virgin birth and so on), those who believe in a more ambiguous Christianity in which Christ is just a gifted prophet, those that believe in a personal God that intervenes in our lives and those that believe in an eastern deity that "no name can soil" and is removed from participation in human interaction.

Many of these views are completely intolerent of one another. If Karl had espoused his ideas about religion in Catholic Italy or Protestant Germany prior to the enlightenment he might have been burned at the stake. The same is true for WBrauns notion of eastern spirituality. It was the rise of secularism in the eilghteenth century that began to put an end to the intolerence of religions one for the other.

The revolutions in both America and France would have caused great consternation to any Orthodox believer, because Christian dogma, based on St. Paul's letter to the Romans, Chap. 13, prohibits revolution against the divine right of kings. Jefferson and the founding fathers were influenced primarily by new philosopies based on systems from classical antiquity. When Louis was beheaded in France it was tantamount to killing god. Churches were torn down or turned into temples of nature. In America the neoclassical style of art and architecture, borrowed from France, was based on the rhetoric of reason.





WBraun

climber
Jan 28, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
"I think" is the first problem.

That means you don't know and speculating again ......
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Jan 28, 2009 - 12:42pm PT
Religion is the downfall of humanity and should be wiped off the face of the planet in its entirety!!!




Satan F*#king Loves You!

666
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 28, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
WBraun, the problem is not thinking. You should try it, thinking that is.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 28, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
Huh?
Cogito ergo sum!
Gene

climber
Jan 28, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
I don’t see any resolution to this thread. Beliefs our a matter of individual choice. It’s apparent that those who have recently posted the most hold very tightly to their beliefs/opinions/theories/whatever. That’s cool.

Is it time to agree that many of us disagree, put this thread down, and all go off in peace?

Thanks to all who have participated.
gm
micronut

Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 28, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
Oh man......
I step away for a few days and now we got pentagrams and people wanting to close the door on this thread. We gotta keep it going until at least one of the Atheists sees the light and converts to Christianity! Or at least until Paul or Werner convert eachother. Otherwise we gotta sit around here on the Taco and discuss the pros and cons of the "sliding x" or the 3:1 pulley.

I went out and bought one of the Darwin books so I can stay in the discussion, but haven't had time to crack it open.

Cause I was out doin' this!
WBraun

climber
Jan 28, 2009 - 08:37pm PT
Dr Failed

You're still a whiny little bitch.

No answers for you.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 28, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
Hi Skip

It's important to remember that the Catholilc church, for many hundreds of years, was THE Christian church. None other was permitted to exist.

Certainly there was plenty of virtue and vice in that.

Catholics might have been persecuted in some places but did more of their share of persecuting as well. That human beings for you. No point in apologizing for it nor criticizing Catholics for it.

The idea of an "infallible" pope went far back before it was declared dogma. Jesus passed "The keys to Heaven" to Peter, who is regarded as the first pope. Jesus told Peter that Peter's judgment would be honored by heaven (the passage could be interpreted in many was but has been used for Papal authority)

So naturally, when the reformation came around, and they didn't have a human figure speaking on behalf of God for authority, they invested that authority in the book.

No need to consider it an attack. I have equal doubts about the letters on a page or the words of any man accurately and unfailingly speaking for God. Too easy and, in hindsight, often incorrect.

So what? I'm not trying to judge God by our human foibles and it's only challenges anybody's church to the extent that they want to claim a perfection with which to rule us with.

Peace

Karl
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Jan 28, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
I like to think we return to the place before we were born...

Where were we before we were born?


I have no recollection of it. No memory of pleasure or pain, just nothingness. Sorta scary, but at the same time...not so scary?
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 29, 2009 - 12:53am PT
Jess wondering, why all the exterior debate ?

For me the Bottom line is the bible and the words that god gave to us. The New Testament is succinct. Specially what jesus says.

We could talk about what jesus says in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and go from there. :D

I think jesus is coming again soon like he says he would.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 29, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
Hey Dr. F, I like that you tell it like you think and feel. :D
In response....Lynne knows God is real. Lynne does not know All about God cause he is after all...God.

I firmly believe Jesus is coming again and probably sooner rather than later. Every human being will know when he returns. You won't be able to miss it. He is coming without announcement, no one knows the day or time. But, when he comes It is going to be an incredible event. He is coming in the clouds and all creation will see him at the same time.

Revelation is a pretty cool book. Last one in the Bible. Here's some stuff it says.

Chapter 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

3:20 Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him and he with me.

1:5 Look, he is coming in the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him: and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen

Matthew 24 and 25 are great....Like you said Dr. F ...."false christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive......"

"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory"

"Therefore, keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch....."


Finally, God does answer every dialogue you have with Him. Like with your spouse or significant other....you gotta have a relationship with them and yo gotta listen.

It hasn't been easy or pretty....but he has always helped me. I am currently in the biggest crisis I have ever experienced and it is not just because my husband died. Lots of Huge challenges. Pretty much stretched beyond measure. But, the God of Creation and Grace will help me daily deal with it.

Cheers, Love and Peace, Lynne
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 30, 2009 - 01:42am PT
An atheist was walking through the woods.

'What majestic trees!' 'What powerful rivers!' 'What beautiful animals!' He said to himself. As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look.

He saw a 7-foot grizzly bear charging towards him. He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing in on him. He looked over his shoulder again, and the bear was even closer. He tripped and fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw that the bear was right on top of him, reaching for  him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him.

At that instant the Atheist cried out, 'Oh my God!' Time Stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent. As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky.

'You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist, and even credit creation to cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament?  Am I to count you as a believer?'

The atheist looked directly into the light and said,

'It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian?'

'Very Well,' said the voice.

The light went out.

The sounds of the forest resumed.

And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:

'Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen.'
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jan 30, 2009 - 01:47am PT
sorry man! aint no Church dweller!

my choice to cure insanity is the Spirit of Yosemite!
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 30, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
Dr.F, I'm with you, man.
jstan

climber
Jan 30, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
Do you suppose Jesus might have already come again and we killed him again?

I guess third time pays for all.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 30, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
"Hey, we just extended the offer.................become a MOT for $29.95 good through February. "

I'm in Fatty! That is, if that qualifies me for the free trip to Israel that each ex-pat MOT gets.

What's the secret handshake

Mazel tov!

Karl
Gene

climber
Jan 30, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
700 Club?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jan 30, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
Ha, 700 club that's very good.

Wasn't there also a PTL club? Believe it stood for pass the loot.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Feb 2, 2009 - 03:45am PT
hey there rockermike... say, i jumped in a mite more than late, i reckon...

say, a lot was going on... and it seems a lot, still is...

think this was about healing, first, if i remember right... well, rocker, say:

i am not christian pentacostal... or any label... (dont really like to say christian, either, as that mean so much, that in the long run--they are all different, under this label as well...

well--just wanted to share, to perhaps help you out, though in the healing stuff, etc...

i do believe in jesus and as we were poor folks, and my now-ex, very hard to life with (and bad with money)--when i learned about trusting jesus as god (and moving with the holy spirit in my life)---the good lord never failed to heal my kids, when i cried-out, cause i had a bad need of help for them....

well now---that is NOT to say, that they did not ever get hurt, as there are LESSONS to learn in life---had a broken arm for one, and two minor car accidents, to all four (seemed the EACH had a different "lesson" to learn---as the BIBLE does say, "life has many storms, but the lord makes a way for us to overcome (and so he did---and the kids DID learn things, that most likely they wished they had learned the "easy" way---if---they would have listened)...

so thus:
1---we learn that healing is there... and even with the son that broke the arm, healing came in a very different way---a way that taught lessons, that would not have been "spiritually discerned" if we had not prayed, in the first place...

2--folks DO forget, that in the bible, jesus did heal (you can chose to belive or not---even as other folks that pray to their cultural gods, do have their healers, that they trust in, and they can chose to believe, as well also, or not).... BUT---WHEN jesus did heal, he made a note, by zering in, say, that so that the folks would know that not only did he heal, but he had power to FORGIVE sins (a word that people-folks SURE hate--i will get back to this, in a few secondes)---he made a point to say, "your sins are forgiven, in one major case, after he healed someone).... i said this, meaning = that if he could do one, he was stating that he could do the other... and why is this important???? .... well, it is because, sure, folks can be healed and love it--they can go off there merry-way, that is, until they DIE.... hmmm... well then, what happens next---hopefully you afterlife is "eternal healing", being that you do NOT take that awful baggage of HATE etc, that folks have, and stuff like that, (you know, murderous intent, etc---this SURE must need a name, one could surely label such, as sin, though god goes a step deeper and include basic hard-core selfishness, as this can give rise to the hate, that leads to murder, etc)....

3---well, moving on---there are times, like even right now, for me, and this IS a first, as i have trusted god/jesus for many years, now, but---i need my leg muscle/nerve to be healed, and this is the first time, that it has dragged on, and it would seem that i am "left out" of being healed... YET---THERE is the "LESSON" that is to be learned, in life, which is FIRST and formost, the priority... (and illness and injury is a great way to purge "selfishness, and the ol' woe-is-me, etc, out of any of us")... so then:

4--who among us, or any others, have not seen the beauty and lovlyiness that comes out of the awful pain, illness, injury, etc, that leads to the WONDERFUL relationship, that is developed by those involved in these situations that OTHERWISE (and i do mean otherwise, thisi is serious, here) would NOT have happened?? meaning that, families have had love bloom, and hearts mended in ways that never had been in there in families, due to the illness, etc, that came there way... (yes, some families have love there, in the first place, but this TOO deepens, and the treasure from it was far beyond riches found here).... (this does NOT mean, that we are to be "thrilled" when folks dont get well, etc, but it DOES mean that "the creator" or, "whoever, in someone elses eyes, as to the powers that be", must know more behind the scenes, than mere man does....

5--i say, mere man, as---anyone that has near froze to death, or anything else, drastic, sure knows that he is not "almighty" and has seen that he is very fragil, as to the elements, on this earth...

6--okay, now... back to me... through this, i have just learned that my dad, who does not open-up, really loves and cares for me, and he has opened up, and TALKED to me...something that would NOT have happened, it i had not run into this bad pain situation---my healing is coming slow, not the usual, FUN and blessed way, but my treasure, is a new RELATIONSHIP, with my dad, even if just for a few months, though this, as, he may delve back into himself, more, and be busy...

7---out of relationship, we all, me included, learn to share more love--and "die more to ourselves" (remember, that ol' "bad nature" that we all could have.... hmmm, yep, it IS called sin, by folks that believe in god...) ... well, it is getting washed out, in these areas, for the folks involved, as the process of healing, takes place... (whether slow, fast, miraculous, or every-day hum-drum)...

8---small note, somefolks, in illness, or injury, can turn down-right bitter and nasty, and vengenfull, against the world, too, as if a wounded critter... some come out of it---others, dont... (if one does not, the inner man, sure is revealed here, perhaps, wouldnt one reckon, that some "eternal" healing is needed... ? a higher healing, for sure... (sins, forgiven, too, would fall in here)....

9---one example, to help, lastly:
my ex father in law, was a man we loved dearly, an alcoholic, that live his life for himself, and unjustly abused his loved ones, emotional, and at times, "in threatenly, alarming ways"... well, he had in later life, riddled with cancer, and all went wrong in him trying to get welll.... just out of the hospital, before he had a stroke, and went in, to die... he was for the FIRST TIME in his life, thinking of his grandkids first (yes, he had loved them as well as he thought he could---though was realing far-lacking)... and by not being healed so fast-and-proper, for the first time, he saw how fragil life was, and his love began to be stirred for them... he was near to give all this to them, but, unknowingly he was too far gone.... though--in his death, he went in peace, and asked jesus for help, as he died, because, of this "journey for the illusive butterfly, called healing"....

10--a huge relationship, was healed, in the process... an act of god, to those that belived, as "who can make a man mend his ways" when he doesnt even know, he needs to??... his "bad nature" is healed.... an eternal healing, is his---as---he body sure dont need it anymore... (though, in the bible, this is said to be raised anew---though, folks dont have to believe, this... i am just sharing, on the tricky aspects of healing, and how it is much deeper than folks think, when they ASK, or cry-out for it... and seem to get it, or not...

so---rockermike... i dont know IF this helped in anyway, but, as to god never failing, in my eyes, he has always given me the greater treasure, and in turn, healed MY inner nature, in the bargain----i got the better deal, as, the lord, got my "garbage", and i am free of it....


hmmm... hope is said all this in a way that helps others, as well...

say, i know that ol' lynne understands this... as she belives in jesus, and, even after she has lost her most beloved man, her husband....

good night, all.... i still have my pain, but will be faithful, through jesus, and i now have much more of dad, than i ever knew before, in my life....

*who, would you wish you could have a lot more of, as you face a hard time, with a healing.... hopefully, it is for more reasons, than just your self, or you may miss the eternal prize... :)

jesus, really, can and does give this prize... i sure love him...


*please, yes, you may disregard this, if this falls under the heading of "fairly tales" to you, as i would not wish to be tricking you, i just wanted to share,as to what rockermike asking about healing... :)
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Feb 2, 2009 - 03:51am PT
hey there, say... rockermike, say... i almost forgot, you also asked if any had seen even miraculous acts of healing...

oh, yes, i have... and in my own family... so much so, that i when i had a miscarraige, i was surprise, very much so, as i had though the good lord would help me keep my baby...

but---he DID heal me, miraculously inside, and there was not a trace of any "debree" etc, inside, after all the bleeding stopped and the last tissue of the baby came out...

the docs were very surprised, there was nothing for them to do, fix-up, clean-up, etc, wise...


and ---here, too, later down the line, i got the deeper treasure, and never held "god accountable for failing me, and my beloved unborn child"....



*but, yes and friends of ours had seen miracles, both small and big... but---not the tremenous type, that folks have seen in the bible history, but still, there are claims by others, throughout the world, as to some of these, still happening, in many poor nations that have families, very desperate, in need...
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