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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 28, 2008 - 12:57am PT
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According to
http://The-UpTake.groups.theuptake.org/en/videogalleryView/id/1549/
Franken is ahead by about 50 votes in the Senate Recount.
In my mind, when the number is that close, it's a tie and the election should be run-off between the two leading candidates. It's madness for anyone to win an election by a few votes and it invites fraud and disenfranchisement.
Sorry for the Political thread but I wanted to chime in while 'my man' appears to be ahead. Ironically,
"Al Franken may now be poised to take back the Wellstone seat for the Democratic Party. As an Air America talk host, he repeatedly mocked those who were investigating the theft of the 2004 election.
But he now owes the possibility of being elected to the diligent work of election protection activists who have fought all these years for fair, open and reliable vote counts. Had former Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell been in charge of this year's Minnesota election, Franken would not even be in the running.
Ironically, a brutal right-wing hate campaign is now being waged against Franken, charging him with election theft. Among other things, it claims he "went to Hollywood" for money to steal his way into the Senate."
from
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/12/24
Peace
Karl
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apogee
climber
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Dec 28, 2008 - 01:13am PT
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Yep, I agree. As much as I'd like to see another Senate seat in the Dem column, a 50 vote lead is a virtual tie.
The irony is striking, though.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 01:15am PT
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And they actually have ballots that were safely stored, and can be recounted. A triumph for democracy over Diebold. And not a hanging chad to be seen.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 28, 2008 - 02:42am PT
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"And they actually have ballots that were safely stored, and can be recounted. A triumph for democracy over Diebold. And not a hanging chad to be seen."
As well as 34 Franken ballots that mysteriously appeared in a Democrat's car trunk. This election is being stolen, pure and simple, by the same people who stole the Washington state governor's race. It fries me to read that these folks are "protecting deomcracy." Nothing of the sort. They're protecting machine politics.
John
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Dec 28, 2008 - 02:47am PT
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Just to make it clear, you're saying Al won, Sis?
-watch your, physical, mailbox
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2008 - 02:47am PT
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Dear LEB,
please tell us, which votes should be counted and not counted in order to determine when to end the counting and call the election over by one vote? Remember, Coleman alleged won the first count but the margin was so close that it triggered an automatic recount which counted votes that were suppressed before. Which is more valid. counting all the votes or counting most of the votes?
Study what went on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_in_Minnesota,_2008
Here's another reason for doing a run-off. There was a third candidate, Independent Dean Barkley, who got 437,404 votes. Obviously thats a lot compared to 50 votes or 200 votes. Why not find out who those voters would have wanted?
peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2008 - 03:58am PT
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There are electoral solutions to these issue. instant run-off voting for instance. It's just tough to sell change to a public that doesn't like to be concerned with thinking
Peace
karl
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 28, 2008 - 09:05am PT
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LEB,- “Some people believe we should count and recount and recount again until we get the results we want. That was the general notion in Florida in 2000 until the Supreme court put an end to it.”
For the record, there never was a complete recount in Florida. The Supreme Court put a stop on the recount. By the time they had reached their decisions the deadline date for a recount had passed.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 28, 2008 - 10:57am PT
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DMT,
In some parts of the US (and other countries) a 50% plus one vote win is required. At least one of Karl's quibbles is that with a third candidate, there may be a spoiler effect. An automatic runoff of the top two candidates prevents the spoiler effect, and indeed occurred in one race this year (which went to a Republican, BTW).
The Minnesota race looks less fraudulent than many, but when rules are allowed to be bent, twisted, and manipulated in anyway on or after election day it leads to a big mess no matter the final outcome.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Dec 28, 2008 - 11:08am PT
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John
No comment on the 2004 election counts in Ohio?
There was plenty of election fraud in that election
that was never fully investigated.
I, like you, want democratic votes without fraud.
But it's been fraudulent on both sides. It's not as if
Coleman isn't trying to 'out fraud' Franken, not a bit.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2008 - 11:55am PT
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I'd like to see a link to the votes that appeared "in a democrat's trunk"
To Franken's credit, his campaign has stated they are going by the basic principle of counting every vote while it has been the Coleman campaign's strategy to litigate to prevent votes that were cast from being counted.
Of course, with a third candidate, his half-million votes eclipse the tiny effect of a few hundred votes between the candidates. With instant run-off voting, you put a vote in place for your second choice so that if your guy loses, your vote goes to the #2 choice. That would prevent spoiler candidates in many elections like Perot and Nadar. Why not?
Peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 01:09pm PT
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In terms of the mechanics and reliability of the process, a difference of 50 votes is statistically insignificant, whether in establishing a majority or a plurality. So the suggestion that there be an automatic recount if there is less than say 1% difference (50.5% v 49.5%) between the top two candidates has merit. And that there be an immediate runoff between them if the difference is less than perhaps 0.1% or 0.01%.
All this is predicated on a registration, voting and counting system that is transparent, fair and as reliable as is practicable, which it appears that Minnesota has. Unlike that e.g. in Florida, it isn't an embarrassment to democracy. The Florida 'system' was fundamentally distorted by political manipulation; no one seems to be suggesting that the Minnesota system is so flawed. Minnesota has a system that equally enables every citizen who is eligible to vote, to register, to vote, and to have that vote counted. There's a bit of squabbling about exactly which votes to count, or whether some should be counted, but that's nothing new. The system itself is reliable.
I wouldn't hold my breath on any state adopting a single transferable vote system of one sort or another, although places like Vermont or New Hampshire might. Likewise on automatic runoff elections when no candidate gets a majority. The US has long used simple plurality to decide elections, and many candidates are elected without a majority of those voting, let alone of the electorate as a whole.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/24/us/politics/24recount.html?scp=2&sq=coleman%20franken&st=cse
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