Israeli Nazi's

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scabang

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 27, 2008 - 11:28am PT
First they starve them - then they bomb them. Bastards!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7800985.stm
Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 27, 2008 - 11:35am PT
I also lived in Israel, as you have and find your thread title an affront to millions of good people.
Moof

Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
Dec 27, 2008 - 11:36am PT
I still can't understand why we support the Israeli scum. I have nothing against Jews (well, about as much as I do against any religion), but Israel as a country is a scumbag of a nation, unworthy of my tax dollars.

Somehow when I learned about apartheid in school I made the mistake of learning the concept was bad, not the name. I've yet to hear a convincing argument as to why we should be their friend. The usual retort of "They are friendlier to us thena their neighbors" does not pass the laugh test.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 27, 2008 - 01:11pm PT
Chris2 Please understand that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is an affront to millions of good people. The OP may seem over the top but when comparing the tactics of the third Reich and Israel in suppressing and occupying others a parallel is not hard to make.
couchmaster

climber
Dec 27, 2008 - 01:18pm PT
Here ya go Moof: there is one democracy in the middle east (unless you count the new democracy of Iraq). ONE.

As far as the OPs claim goes, the Israelis get rocketed daily. DAILY! Those rockets blow up all over the place, in fact, 2 Palestinians died 2 days ago when their rocket blew pre-launch. We wouldn't put up with that crap, ie, as#@&%es regularly and daily targeting our civilians - and they shouldn't either.

Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 27, 2008 - 01:21pm PT
Walking through the Israeli Holocaust museum in Jerusalem and then returning to where I was living that same day and seeing an elderly man reaching for some food at the table with numbers tattooed on his arm, is testament enough for me that associating Israeli’s with Nazi's is very wrong.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Dec 27, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
Chris2, I believe you're correct in saying that associating the Nazi party with Israeli is incorrect but I fail to see the relevance of a democracy if it kills the same number, if not more, than suicide bombers. Yes, it maybe a democracy but does that make every move a just decision which we should support financially? it makes me sick to think how much money we give them.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 27, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
the palestinians have launched over 3000 rockets into israel just this year...200 since the truce ended two weeks ago; 200 hundred rockets in two weeks--you should be praising israel's restraint...these rockets are impossible to aim/guide; hamas just points them toward israel and lets them fly with no concern for civilians--not even their own as demonstrated by the rockets that fell short this week and killed two palestinian school girls; nobody in hamas as accepted responsibility...these are not surgical military strikes with civilians dying as collateral damage; these attacks are meant to terrorize and kill civilians

all hamas has to do is stop attacking israel...note, there isn't any trouble in the west bank, which is run by fatah

by the way, there are hundreds of thousands of arabs who live in israel; they are israeli citizens; they vote; they have representation in the israeli parliament; they openly and vociferously criticize the israeli government without repercussion...so, exactly whom is israel allegedly oppressing, besides the people who continually launch rockets at them?

and how is israel like the nazis? when was the last time israel had a totalitarian government? when was the last time they launched a war of conquest? when was the last time they rounded up an entire population of people, used them as slave labor, and systematically exterminated them?

israel is the only stable democracy in the region, and they are our allies and have proven their trustworthiness...remember the gulf war when saddam was launching scud missiles into israel? we asked them to not retaliate because we felt israeli involvement would widen the war; the israelis respected our wishes despite repeated attacks

and, next to america, the israelis have the best military in the world--they're badass, and i want them on our side no matter whom we're fighting
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Dec 27, 2008 - 01:42pm PT
Comparing the Isrealis to Nazis is pretty offensive.

They have not always treated the Palestinians well, but it's a far cry from the genocidal policies of the Nazis.

And while civilian deaths suck, they pretty much have to do something, with more than 100 missles a day coming at them.
crřtch

climber
Dec 27, 2008 - 01:52pm PT
Would the US sit passively while Mexico launched hundreds of missiles over the border into San Diego?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 27, 2008 - 01:54pm PT
Someone please post up a death toll, casualty list, property damage assessment for these 2000 "rockets" into Israel. Then let's compare notes. If restraint was reasonable against the very real threat of Saddam's much more accurate and destructive Scuds then why is a brutal air assault and a pending invasion a proper response to the desperate futility of the Katushka attacks? Wouldn't food and water and a little fuel for heat and hospitals make more allies tan enemies?

d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Dec 27, 2008 - 01:59pm PT
to answer crotch,

no, but zionists
that live in israel would.

zionism=nazism
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:01pm PT
would we sit by while we were "surgically" bombed? yea right. I don't think either side is correct, however the point is that we financially support Israel heavily. Can you not see the inconsistency? We should remove all financial support from Israel, they can fight their own war.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
There is no doubt that the isralies have become what was done to them. they use many of the same tactics. buldozeing homes of family members of freedom fighters etc. My cousin (also jewish) was in isreal a few years ago and she had also been to South africa in the aparthide days. she was appaled and saw little difference in the way the isralis treated the palastinians vs the way the whites treated the blacks in SA.
jbar

Ice climber
Russia with love.
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
Armchair media watchers think they know so much about the world. How Europe is so much better than America, how America sux so bad, how we're helping the zionist persecute the palestinians and everyone knows thats the root of all the trouble in the middle east. Whatever! These people are snowed into believing something that isn't true. Last time I was in Tel there were more Russians than Jews anyway. These people need to go visit the left bank and see where the problems really stem from. Go watch the fake combat scenes Hamas sells to Al jazeera. No doubt there is wrong on BOTH sides and nothing will be done about it until BOTH sides are willing to sit down and come up with a real world answer. I thought the world was gonna end when ariel sharon took over but he ended up trying to give half of Israel to the Palestinians. That wasn't good enough though. Look what happened to Yasser. When he got older and decide talking was better than throwing molotov cocktails they pushed him out and called him a sympathizer.
Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
Philo, Israel exercised restraint during Saddam’s Scud attacks because there was a large coalition of Arab countries lined up against Iraq along the side of Western powers.

If Israel had gotten involved in the first Iraqi war under daddy Bush the Arab nations would have been forced to drop their allegiance to the coalition.


d-know comparing Zionism to Nazism is so far off I wouldn't know where to begin to correct such a statement.


jbar Al Jazeera offers the BEST news coming out of that region.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:20pm PT
Some terrorists in Tijuana maybe ought to shoot a few missiles randomly into LA and see how some of you feel about it.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:27pm PT
Chris2 posted
"Walking through the Israeli Holocaust museum in Jerusalem and then returning to where I was living that same day and seeing an elderly man reaching for some food at the table with numbers tattooed on his arm, is testament enough for me that associating Israeli’s with Nazi's is very wrong".
First Chris2 The Palestinians had nothing, I repeat NOTHING to do with the Holocaust of WW2. In fact they were invaluable allies to Britain and the US during WW2. Yet the displaced and occupied Palestinians are constantly getting the Holocaust rammed down their throats as a justification for the daily brutality of their occupation.

When you see the pictures of the mass round up arrests where the IDF have used sharpies to number the arms of detainees. Sure sharpies are better than tatoos right? But what is the symbolic intent of such an act. When you've been made to feel real bad the one thing you remember is how to make others feel real bad. Or how about the pictures of the Star of David scrawled on once prosperous Palestinian store fronts schedule for take over or demolition in Hebron? Sure it's not a Swastica. But in this context what is the difference? Or how about the numerous videos that show IDF soldiers and/or vigilante unsettlers using large rocks to break the arms of elderly men and women. Who's only crime was trying to harvest their crops. How about the Israeli policy of not just targeting the suspected terrorist but their entire extended family and all their possessions as well? Bring in the bulldozers these twelve houses gotta go. What you got a problem 'cause there is still women and children inside? Well don't! Remember they are either terrorists or there are terrorists hiding behind them. Now go crush some ass!


Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:28pm PT
Hawkeye, that point was just addressed earlier. You can sympathize with either side, I'm just curious why people choose one side or the other. Both sides are guilty in my view, I just don't see why we sell Israel F18s. Its just a different form of terrorism.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:30pm PT
I think you guys have a real shot at reaching an agreement here!
Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
This is about the time I bail out of these threads philo (when information starts getting repeated). Refer back to stevep post on the first page for what my response to your above post would be.

Also I have studied the existing Palestinian state, pre and post establishment of the Jewish State. I know quite well who the Palestians were helping during WW2.
Moof

Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:38pm PT
If I was in a location as oppressed as the Gaza strip is today, your damn right I would use all my might to fight off the oppressor. Rockets? Sure. Rocks? Hell yeah! It would not matter if they be were operating under orders from a Fascist Dictator, or a ideal Democracy. Beat me down, and I'll fight back for what is mine (especially my basic human rights). Hamas came to power through democratic elections, does that excuse them from their actions too? No.

Knowingly and intentionally starving a group of people, mostly civilians, to get at the minority of militants among them is a horrendous tactic. Going back to the Golden rule, how would Jews in the rest of the world like it if they were rounded up from their legally owned homes, sent to refugee camps, starved of food, fuel, medicine, power, and treated like third class citizens? Oh wait, they've been their and barely lived through it. Guess they learned well from their oppressors.

Neither side is in the right. Starving a people into submission is in-human. Suicide attacks are deplorable.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:44pm PT
"Someone please post up a death toll, casualty list, property damage assessment for these 2000 "rockets" into Israel."

That's an idiotic arguement. Since mortars and rockets fired at Israel haven't killed that many people is reason is sit and do nothing.

You think Israel is going to wait for the ovens?
Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
"Never again. Remember Masada!"
Is how many Israeli's feel.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:51pm PT
Closer to agreement! i can feel it!
outsideup in NM

Sport climber
Albuquerque, NM
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:53pm PT
Scabang and co: Why on earth is this tirade being posted here? There are plenty of forums where you can discuss this very complex issue with people who are interested in getting into it (and are more informed and much more open-minded than you). I'd suggest that if you are truly interested, you try taking your debate elsewhere. Perhaps you'll learn something (though I seriously wonder if that's possible). You certainly won't change the world for the better by annoying a lot of people who prefer to separate their discussions of complex international affairs from their discussions on climbing.
Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
Well Caught, not is all as it appears. I am actually very embarrassed as to how the Israeli's treat the Palestians. Not a "Fatrad/ bluering" follower here. Not by a long shot. I got "into this" simply because comparing their actions to Nazi Germany is ridiculous.
WoodySt

Trad climber
Riverside
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
Hamas wanted a war; they got a war.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
"You certainly won't change the world for the better by annoying a lot of people who prefer to separate their discussions of complex international affairs from their discussions on climbing. "

You certainly don't speak for me, but you're obviously entitled to say what you wish.



caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Dec 27, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
Let's draft up the peace agreement! We're nearly there!!
WoodySt

Trad climber
Riverside
Dec 27, 2008 - 03:02pm PT
Caughtinside for our UN rep.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 27, 2008 - 03:04pm PT
how many of you old folks recall hearing about this type of stuff for what, the last 30 years at least.

i agree, no more money to anyone in the middle east unless they have oil.
Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 27, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
It was sadly one of my favorite Presidents, Carter, that really messed things up in the region with the Camp David Peace Accord.

Queen Noor (from Jordan) spoke quite passionately of her husbands frustrations with this Peace treaty, that did not include all Middle Eastern States. This was something King Hussein had been working very hard on for a number of years.

I suppose at this point not too much can really be done, now that the U.S. has totally destabilized the entire region with its unwarranted attack of Iraq.


JUST DON'T COMPARE ISRAELI'S TO NAZI'S. THANK YOU

No problem with making fun of Illinois Nazi's. I hate Illinois Nazi's.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
"Hamas wanted a war; they got a war.'

The same could be said for Israel. They go after a few by attacking the many. How would you feel if your home was bulldozed because your kid who no longer lives with you was a terrorist? Could you imagine deciding to now support the terrorist against what you saw as terrorism?

Israel needs to clean up its act and so does Palistine. The US needs to stop supporting the terrorism perpetrated by Israel.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 27, 2008 - 04:28pm PT
The closer a person follows this conflict, which the media slants to make Israel look good, the more apartheid it looks.

Israel just killed more palestinians in one day than Palestinian rockets have killed during the WHOLE HISTORY of the conflict.

People say "all they have to do is stop launching missiles at Israel" but it's not true. Behind the scene Israel, once things get peaceful, start blockages, assassinations, and other provocations until the other side strikes back and then they use those strikes as an excuse to invade.

It's all about one thing and this was stated plainly from Ben Gurian onwards, to take the whole Levant (Greater Israel) in stages and push the Palestinians inexorably out as fast as world opinion will allow.

Both sides have plenty wrong but our support is what keeps a solution from happening. It's like we're the local judge but we won't slap the wrist of the guy in town who keeps beating his wife savagely (and she might just be a bitch but he married her when she was 10 years old against her will)

It's ugly. It's more like apartheid but the comparison with Germany can be made in that they are both using military force to clear people out for "living room"

peace

Karl
Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 27, 2008 - 04:38pm PT
Karl you most often are the voice of reason on this site, but you are wrong this time. When Israel became a state in ’48 all the surrounding Arab countries launched a full on offensive to rid the land of Jews.
Granted, there was a civil war in Palestine, in which Zionist Jews committed terrible crimes prior to statehood, but all out war was declared by their neighbors, until the U.N. stepped in.

And at the time, these neighboring Arab countries saw the Palestinians as pawns...not allowing immigration by them into their countries.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 27, 2008 - 07:56pm PT
Your statement above is misinformed Chris. Israel declared itself a state preemptively. Of course there was a struggle. 700,000 Palestinians were forced or pressured (massacres were happening) from their homes.

Look man, there were about 20,000 Jews in all of the holy land a hundred or two hundred years ago. To go from that to a Jewish state with borders much larger than those proposed by the UN isn't some matter of innocent people with a right to the land becoming the poor victims of Palestinian terrorism. In fact, many of Jews who became leaders of the new land of Israel were terrorists who had been attacking the British there. There are many myths out there used to justify this "invasion" and "expansion" Some will try to tell you that the Jew simply bought all the Palestinians out of their lands and thus they are indian givers.

You have to really study it to get behind the smokescreen. Since when did the British own the land to give it away anyway?

It's an ugly situation and no clean party is there. Problem is, the United States acts as if the land of Israel is some sinless victim of Muslim abuse and it's not so. The Muslim world sees the Muslim side and so we have a worldwide conflict that's seriously rooted in the Israeli conflict.

That's unfortunate because it means we wind up defending injustice. It would be a lot easier to claim we were noble democrats setting the best example for the world if it wasn't obviously false to those intimate with the real situation.

Sometimes you have to tell your friends to straighten up and fly right to help them get out of the hole they are in. Indulgence of continued Israeli political pandering to the ideology and needs of illegal settlers is the root of not having a fair path to peace

peace

Karl
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2008 - 08:11pm PT
Look man, there were about 20,000 Jews in all of the holy land a hundred or two hundred years ago.

And hundreds of thousands of Jews in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, etc.

Howza bout they get their land back too?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 27, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
Well DaftRat, the most eminent scholar of one sided history, read the truth and choke on a matza ball.


http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story420.html

Aren't Palestinians as responsible as their leader al-Hajj Amin Hussieni who collaborated with the Nazis during WW II?
Post Your Comment (9 comments) eMail to a friend
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למאמר בעברית
Posted on August 2, 2001



Unfortunately, to the Palestinian people this question implies that they should pay the price for the collaboration of a single person with the Nazis! Although there were a minority of Palestinians who collaborated with the Nazis, a whole nation cannot pay the price for the choices of a few. It's not just that the Palestinian people (and most of the Arab countries as well) aided the allies with men and logistical support, they also ignored the call for Jihad, against the Allies, that was declared by al-Hajj Amin in April, 1941 (Righteous Victims, p. 165).

Since the Palestinian people were promised full independence in 1949, and strict limitation on Jewish immigration to Palestine, based on the 1939 White Paper, the Palestinian people had an incentive to help the Allies win the war. It should be noted that several Palestinian brigades were enlisted into the British Army, and the Palestinian resistance to the brutal British occupation almost completely ceased during and after WW II.

In general, the Palestinian people are proud of the fact that they were among the few who did not collaborate openly with Nazis. On the other hand, the peoples and governments of France, Italy, Japan, Romania, Croatia, Chechnya, Bulgaria, Switzerland, ... etc. all collaborated openly with the Nazis. Tragically, many of these peoples and governments happily pointed out their Jewish citizens to the Gestapo. So it's unfair, if not outright criminal, to exploit al-Hajj Amin's conduct in order to eternally condemn the Palestinian people as Nazis, while ignoring the choices made by most European peoples and governments who openly collaborated with the Nazis.

In that regard, it's worth noting that Josef Stalin, the Soviet premier and dictator, forcibly transferred the people of the Caucasus to Siberia as a collective punishment for their collaboration with the Nazis during WWII. However, the same people were allowed to return to their homes in 1958 when the scale of the war crime became known to Khruschev, Stalin's successor in the 1950s. If the people of the Caucasus were allowed to return to their homes under Communist rule, why can't the Palestinian refugees return to their homes under Israeli rule?

IRONICALLY, the shocking truth is that it has been proven that the Jewish Stern gang received funding and arms from the Italian Fascists to resist the British Mandate in Palestine. In fact, the Stern gang's collaboration with the Fascists and Nazis was going on while their Jewish brothers were being persecuted in Nazi concentration camps. It should also be noted that when the Americans, British, and their Arab allies were busy blocking the Desert Fox's (Erwin Rommel) advances in north Africa, the Stern gang's leader Yitzhak Shamir and the Irgun gang's leader Menachem Begin were busy ambushing British soldiers, blowing up the vital Haifa-Cairo railroad supply line, and terrorizing British and Palestinian civilians (Righteous Victims, p. 174). And when Yitzhak Shamir, Israel's future Prime Minister in the 1980s, was asked to explain their collaboration with the Fascists, he replied:

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." (One Palestine Complete , p. 464).

Since these findings have only have only JUST started to surface lately (and are kept smothered in many Jewish communities), we feel it's necessary to directly quote one of the MOST pro-Israel historians, Martin Gilbert, who wrote:

"Avraham Stern who had formed a breakaway 'Irgun in Israel' movement (also known as the Stern Gang), tried to make contact with Fascist Italy in the hope that, if Mussolini were to conquer the Middle East, he would allow a Jewish State to be set up in Palestine. When Mussolini's troops were defeated in North Africa, Stern tried to make contacts with Nazi Germany, hoping to sign a pact with Hitler which would lead to a Jewish State once Hitler had defeated Britain. After two members of the Stern's Gang had killed the Tel Aviv [British] police chief and two of his officers, Stern himself was caught and killed. His followers [chief among them Yitzhak Shamir who led the Stern Gang after Stern's death] continued on their path of terror." (Israel: A History, p. 111-112)

What makes many Palestinians and Arabs EXTREMELY ANGRY is that the memories of the Holocaust are being exploited to paint Palestinians as Nazis. Such dangerous comparison and propaganda tactics are continuously fed to many Israeli school children from inception, especially upon visiting the Holocaust museum at Yad Vashem. It should be emphasized that many life size pictures of al-Hajj Amin standing alongside Hitler are on display at Yad Vashem, just West of Jerusalem not far from DEIR YASSIN. It's hypocritical to hold Palestinians responsible for the "ill fated" choice of al-Hajj Amin, while Israelis and Jews still blind themselves to the choices some of their leaders made during WW II.

Related Links

Zionist Quotes: Bible & Holocaust Exploitation
Ze'ev Jabotinsky being PROUD of his fascist uniform
A scanned copy of the document sent by the Stern Gang asking Nazi Germany for alliance
Pres. George Bush: US should have acted on Auschwitz
Merkel: Germans ashamed over Holocaust
The Untermensch Syndrome: Israel's Moral Decay
scabang

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
Well, well, isn't that something. We can read about the plight (since 1948) of the Palestinians. Certainly not a luxury that would be afforded to you by any US daily. Fattrad?? Tut, tut. How do you sleep at night knowing that you support Israeli genocide. "i'm sorry if any civilians were killed but...". Do me a favor - your buddy Don Rumsfeld called that "collateral damage" - do you? And don't give me the usual hogwash about suicide bombers and Katushya rockets. Who is the more cowardly murderer - the aforementioned or the pilot who drops his 500lb bomb in a populated area? As a South African jew i spent many years in Israel and i can tell you that Apartheid was child's play in comparison.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2008 - 09:22pm PT
One should note that there's no probelm right now with Fatah on the west bank.

there are those that dream of unringing the bell of history.

Foolish?

th

Hamas' charter proclaims itself as jihadist's and mass murderers in its preamble.

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

18 August 1988
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

"Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed." (Al-Imran - verses 109-111).

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).



Not a whole lot of room for negotiation there.

John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 09:30pm PT
Skip, What do you say about Israel's policy of bulldozing homes of family members of known terrorist?

Not the terrorist homes, but their parents, their cousins, their brothers and sisters.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 27, 2008 - 09:32pm PT
No problem on the West Bank TGT, really. Where do you get your news from Fattrad?
Just look up Hebron for one example.


And Skipper be careful getting into a battle of wits your ammo consists of spit balls.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2008 - 09:36pm PT
More from the charter.

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

Article Eight:
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 09:39pm PT
I think that it is terrible that our government can bulldoze homes for shopping malls.

John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 09:46pm PT
"Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. "

Doesn't Christianity have a similar verse?

"Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it." Luke 17:33

Maybe Jesus was a Jihadist. He appears to want people to die for him.

"The one who finds his life will lose it, and the one who loses his life because of me ( Jesus) will find it." Matt 10:39
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Dec 27, 2008 - 09:48pm PT
Looks like some small setbacks... but I think we're really close to reconciling differences here!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
Skip, it is such a different case. Can you not see this? The Israelis are going beyond an eye for an eye. Do you not understand how this can create even more angst and thus more support for the terrorist? Justice should be fair.

Would you consider it fair if your father decided he had had enough of our government and attacked it with bombs, and our government decided to bulldoze your house because of what your father did? How can you support that and claim it is similar to bulldozing a house to make way for a mall? It is not similar. It is revenge.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2008 - 09:55pm PT
From article thirteen of the charter.

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 27, 2008 - 09:57pm PT
Unless you are talking about the Mormon concept of "blood atonement" for just one example Skipt.

Don't you guys, who think I am as naive as Lois, ever read my climbing posts?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:00pm PT
Skip, I know that about Christian Martyrdom. I was just pointing out that there are similar verses in both religions. For TGT to use it to mean that their religion or charter condones killing is ignorant.

Plus the verse is not about actually being a martyr. It is about giving up ones ego/carnal mind by choosing to put on the mind of Christ. Letting the ego die and putting on the mind of Christ is the way to eternal salvation.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:04pm PT
"Going beyond the "eye for an eye."

What does this even mean?

Let me make my point clear to you.

When it comes to protecting the innocent people of Israel it is their Government's responsibility to, "Git er done."

Beyond an "eye for an eye."

What a pants load.'

............

No wonder people dont talk respectfully to you.

Bulldozing family members homes does go beyond an eye for an eye. So I suppose that you would be okay with the American government bulldozing your house if one of your family members turned to terrorism. Good to know.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:09pm PT
This sorta' blatantly endorses killing,

It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis. Palestine contains Islamic holy sites. In it there is al- Aqsa Mosque which is bound to the great Mosque in Mecca in an inseparable bond as long as heaven and earth speak of Isra` (Mohammed's midnight journey to the seven heavens) and Mi'raj (Mohammed's ascension to the seven heavens from Jerusalem).

"The bond of one day for the sake of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it. The place of one's whip in Paradise is far better than the world and whatever there is on it. A worshipper's going and coming in the service of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it." (As related by al-Bukhari, Moslem, al-Tarmdhi and Ibn Maja).

"I swear by the holder of Mohammed's soul that I would like to invade and be killed for the sake of Allah, then invade and be killed, and then invade again and be killed." (As related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).



Doesn't it?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:12pm PT
Yes TGT, it does. So I guess we should bomb the sh#t out of them.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
You are responsible if you do nothing to stop it. You reap what you sow. That is karma baby. Suck it up. I didn't make the rules.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:15pm PT
Ack.. Jello was right. It is a cesspool. Wrestle with pigs.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:19pm PT
Skip, I don't condone doing nothing. I just think that what is done should be done with wisdom. Bulldozing innocents homes is not wisdom. If you can not see this, then there is nothing left for us to discuss. We are polls apart.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:28pm PT
How is wanting Israel to stop bulldozing the homes of family members of terrorist giving terrorist a pass? I don't give them a pass. Give them a fair trial and put them in jail.

Bulldozing the homes of family members doesn't stop terrorism.
It just makes more people angry which leads to more terrorism.

If your kid kills someone, should you also be killed?

How is that not going beyond an eye for an eye?


Do you not see this?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
It is a fraud. It is not a war. It is a police action. The military can't stop it. Good policework and good foreign policy is the only way to put a dent in it.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:31pm PT
No one here is giving the terrorists a pass Skipt. Some of us are just not giving Israelli terrorism a pass either. The 2000 + "rocket" attacks have been virtually ineffective landing harmlessly. But what would you do under occupation? Roll over and take one? What would brave and righteous Skipt do to fight for his homeland and independence?
To fight to feed and defend your children? Against Uzis, Apaches, F16s, what would you use from your back yard to resist?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:35pm PT
there are plenty of quotes that could be quoted to support any position. If I wanted to make Americans look like bloodthirsty maniacs, I could do so by just doing a search of past posts on Supertopo.

but just to strike a balance

Ben Gurion, (perhaps the most prominent founding father of Israel) "In a letter Chaim Weizmann sent to the Palestine-British high Commissioner while the Peel Commission was convening in 1937, he wrote:

"We Shall spread in the whole country in the course of time ..... this is only an arrangement for the next 25 to 30 years." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 62)

In 1938, Ben-Gurion made it clear of his support for the establishment of a Jewish state on parts of Palestine ONLY as an intermediary stage, he wrote:

"[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107, One Palestine Complete, p. 403)

Ben-Gurion emphasized that the acceptance of the Peel Commission would not imply static borders for the future "Jewish state". In a letter Ben-Gurion sent to his son in 1937, he wrote:

"No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. [A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning ..... Our possession is important not only for itself ... through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a [small] state .... will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country." (Righteous Victims, p. 138)"

One day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine, Menachem Begin, the commander of the Irgun and Israel's future Prime Minster between 1977-1983, proclaimed:

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever." (Iron Wall p. 25)

from

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story695.html

According to Sefer Toldot Ha-Haganah, the official history of the Haganah, it clearly stated how Palestinian villages and population should be dealt with. It stated:

"[Palestinian Arab] villages inside the Jewish state that resist 'should be destroyed .... and their inhabitants expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state.' Meanwhile, 'Palestinian residents of the urban quarters which dominate access to or egress from towns should be expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state in the event of their resistance.' " (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 178)

Israel Zangwill, who had visited Palestine in 1897 and came face-to-face with the demographic reality, stated :

"Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7- 10, and Righteous Victims, p. 140)

The actual demographics picture for Palestine in 1914 was: 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews

Peace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:41pm PT
Thank You Karl Baba another tremendous post.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:44pm PT
No Skip. I do not condone the rocket firing. I just understand that Israel's actions just make matters worse. Hopefully some day you will understand this.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 27, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
How many houses, how many deaths Skipt? Post up some facts on all the devastation caused by Palestinian rocket attack. Death Tolls and property values. Be specific Skipt.
How do the numbers stack up Skipt? Who lost more innocent civilians and property?
Or are you content to endlessly regurgitate zionist misinformation to justify an out of all context revengeful mass destruction?
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Dec 27, 2008 - 11:03pm PT
chris2 - valid comments! There are some things we can agree on.

I think the headlines should read as: Hammas commits suicide
by IDF. (fyi its a play on ..suicide by policeman)
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 27, 2008 - 11:05pm PT
Exactly what are you endeavoring to say Skipt? Apparently my limited intellect is impeding my ability to make sense of where you are coming from with all the twisting of word and intent you are engaged in.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 12:10am PT
To get a clear perspective, it IS important to know the death toll on both sides. Particularly telling, since we're worried about innocent people, is the number of children killed on each side.

Question, If our country was invaded and settled by a foreign people, how would you fight back if they somehow had total military superiority of every kind? Put the shoe on the other foot.

Again, think about it. There were less than 60,000 jews in this land about a hundred years ago. How do they go from that to being the dominant rulers of the land while being the innocent victims the whole time?

At least Fatty would sort of admit that that's the ugly way power works, You lose the wars, you lose your lands. Gonna give the west back to the Indians?

Doesn't make it right to keep letting injustices happen. Didn't we kick Saddam out of Kuwait after he invaded successfully?

Peace

Karl
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 28, 2008 - 12:12am PT
Anybody hear the news about the air strikes today?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 01:34am PT
That's BS Skip. Of course the death toll matters.

If 6-10 Israelis have been killed during the last year and that's being used to justify cutting off electricity and food to a whole population and then bombing the crap out of them, killing hundreds in just one day, then we have a inappropriate response.

Skip, just accept one principle. that of stepping into the shoes of the other. considering the golden rule. You really expect the Palestinians to be crowded into the open air prison of Gaza with all their borders blockaded and stave themselves while maintaining a polite cease fire?

If the US were to have killed 50 innocent Pakistanis going after the Taliban in Pakistan, would that justify Pakistan nuking us?

"A March 3, 2008 report issued by Amnesty International has revealed the amount of carnage that has occurred as a result of Israel’s air and artillery strikes on Gaza [1]. Over 100 Palestinians have been killed and many were children or innocent bystanders. More than 250 others (mostly civilians) were injured. Israel’s Chief of Staff (e.g. public relations goon) claimed that 90 percent of those were militants, but the UN and sources in Gaza tell a different story. Sources say that half of those killed were unarmed civilians, while Israel bombed civilian neighborhoods and at least two medical facilities—which have already suffered from shortages of supplies and a humanitarian crisis.

Nonetheless, Amnesty also criticized “militant groups” in Gaza for firing homemade rockets at Israel. Amnesty stated:

“It is high time that the leaders of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority (PA) took effective steps to prevent and punish attacks on civilians in Israel,” said Malcolm Smart, “but their failure to do so does not make it legitimate for the Israeli authorities to launch reckless air and artillery strikes which wreak such death and destruction among Palestinian civilians.

“At the same time, the Palestinian armed groups who launch frequent rocket attacks from Gaza into nearby Israeli towns not only show a callous disregard for the lives of Israeli civilians but also expose the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip to the danger of Israeli attacks.”

While this criticism is seemingly well motivated and I commend them for being concerned about the lives of all those involved, is important to remember the disproportionate amount of violence that Israel has perpetrated against Palestinian civilians. One Israeli civilian in the past several months has died in the attacks, while hundreds of Palestinians have been killed and many more wounded in a relentless barrage of aerial bombardments and periodic incursions. Palestinian territories have endured decades of an illegal and brutal military occupation that has impoverished and humiliated an entire group of people because of their ethnicity. Over the last several decades, Palestinians suffered disproportionately under the occupation, and have been unable to respond to the violence and defend themselves. Palestinian deaths outnumbered Israeli deaths by a factor of over 20 to 1 during the first intifada (1988), and the vast majority of Israeli deaths were combat troops.

Even in the early stages of the last intifada a disproportionate number of innocent Palestinians suffered. An article in the Guardian by Suzanne Goldenberg cited a report given by the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in 2001 stating that 13,296 people—many of whom are children, had been left with some form of permanent disability like loss of sight, paralysis, or severe mental disabilities [2].

In her article, Goldenberg described a “harvest of mutilation” experienced by Palestinian youngsters. Injuries were doled out by bullets from high-powered M-16s on children and teenagers that the world has all but forgotten about. Children like Hussein Na’ezi and Mahmoud Sarhan, both only 16 years old, were shot through the neck while they were running from a tank in their own neighborhood. They sustained spinal cord injuries and neither of them will ever be able to walk, or even lower themselves into a wheel chair. Imagine what the reaction would be if American or European children were not able to walk to school or play in their own back yards because of the fear that they might be killed or permanently disabled by a tank or machine gun fire from an occupying army.

One could arguer that the use of violence on the part of Palestinians is not optimal. Obviously, a building a multi-ethic society free of apartheid would be the best option. However, criticizing the Palestinians for using violence to defend their homeland (as if they were on equal footing with Israel) is counterproductive at this point."
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 01:41am PT
The thing is, we don't get the whole story here in the states. We hear about every Israeli killed but not the Palestinians. This is particularly true about the kids.

"The networks’ coverage of children’s deaths was even more skewed. In the first year of the current uprising, ABC, CBS, and NBC reported Israeli children’s deaths at 13.8, 6.4, and 12.4 times the rate of Palestinian children’s deaths. In 2004 these large differentials were also present, although they decreased in two cases, with deaths of Israeli children covered at rates 9.0, 12.8, and 9.9 times greater than the deaths of Palestinian children by ABC, CBS, and NBC, respectively. Given that in 2004 22 times more Palestinian children were killed than Israeli children, this category holds particular importance. We could find no basis on which to justify this inequality in coverage."

"In the first year of the current uprising, 28 Israeli children and at least 131 Palestinian children were killed.4 (Children are defined by international law as those who are 17 and younger.)

Thus, Palestinian children were killed at a rate 4.7 times greater than Israeli children. 825 of these Palestinian children were killed in the first three-and-a-half months of the conflict, before any Israeli children had been killed."

"Collectively, the networks reported on an average of 46 Israeli children’s deaths – 164% of the Israeli children killed – and 21 Palestinian children’s deaths – 16% of the Palestinian children killed. In other words, the networks reported on Israeli children’s deaths at a rate 10.2 times greater than Palestinian children’s deaths."

From a study reported here

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html

corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 02:42am PT
How many of us have laughed at R. Kings plee, " can't we all just get along?" as wishful thinking that just isn't going to happen in the real world.

Why do we seem to forget this when our attention is turned to the middle east? Completely unreasonable for us to want the folks least likely to get along, to do so.












scabang

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2008 - 11:27am PT
Ariel Sharon put it best:"a Palestinian life is not worth the fingernail of an Israeli". Thankfully that war criminal has been in a coma for the past few years. May he rot in hell.
WoodySt

Trad climber
Riverside
Dec 28, 2008 - 11:43am PT
Keep it up Israel.
couchmaster

climber
Dec 28, 2008 - 11:56am PT
Karl Baba said: The thing is, we don't get the whole story here in the states. We hear about every Israeli killed but not the Palestinians. This is particularly true about the kids.

...and therein lies one of the cruxes of the issue for us all - our press is not as "free" as we would like to think....however, concerning the above discourse that the Israelis kill more so are more at fault...ahhh, not fair. The Palestinians would kill plenty more if they could, and it's heading that direction as they get help, training, and supplies from places like Iran.

This has a simple fix, Israel wants the Palestinian authorities to help stop the missile firings. Yet they do nothing. Nothing at all.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 12:36pm PT
Skip says

"Let me see, Hammas responsible for thousands upon thousands of dead innocents. Me, zero"

Prove it Skip. You wrote the Thousands upon Thousands but haven't investigated to see if there's any truth to it.

Fatty says we shouldn't consider fairness but that's the comfy talk from the side that's ahead and has superpower support. The tables may turn as the Arab world gets rich on oil while the US chokes on its economy.

Here's my beef Skip. You're obviously not up to date on the conflict in an educated way. You don't know what's really going on with both sides so you think based on the filter you've seen the surface level of new with.

I'd be all about protecting Israel if they had any integrity about what they are doing. The problem is, for decades that they have been paying lip service to peace, they are deliberately been Illegally confiscating and settling Palestinian lands and creating unlivable conditions in Palestinian territories to drive them out so they can settle "The greater Israel"

as long as that goes on, there is no "good" parties to this conflict, only bad. By asking you to put the shoe on the other foot Skip, I'm asking you to ask yourself, if half your town was settled by foreigners with no rightful claim to the land, and they instituted blockades and checkpoints, made you carry Id cards, searched you, kept you from getting work, and treated you like a dog, how would you respond?' Really?

If we are going to take the Israeli Side, I don't have a problem with that as long as we hold them to a standard of fairness and justice. Continuing with settlements in Palestinian land and building the wall on a path that makes Palestinian life unsustainable is not acceptable.

Fatty, you are wrong, if the Palestinians accept the present borders (care to let us know what they are? Where is Hebron? What about settlements within Palestine? Gonna remove them all?) how long before they are provoked or blockaded into more conflict and more confiscation?

It's a little know fact in the US that Israel has always refused to state where there borders should be. They wouldn't do so now either. There is a large powerful group in Israel that refuses to do so with continual expansion in mind.

Israel has serious long term problems. It's a Jewish state with modern demographics but Judaism is basically not a religion that seeks to convert people. That points to shrinking population while the Muslm populations continue to soar. I'm not saying anything is right or wrong in that, just that it pushes Israel to make up new ways to push Arabs out and that it's pushing to confiscate new land that it doesn't really need.

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 12:49pm PT
Skip writes

"I call for Hammas to stop sending thousands of rockets and killing innocent people in the first place which is the true position of what you are trying to achieve"

You're just being one sided Skip. Call for Israel to cease illegal settling. Call for Israel to stop shooting children with snipers while they work their own olive orchards. It's not just Hamas harrassing innocent people, Israel is far from innocent here.

When you talk about fairness in killing, you have it all twisted. I'm saying that both sides kill a small number of innocent people deliberately, and then Israel uses that as an excuse to kill large numbers of guilty and innocent people and punish whole populations.

Got any criminals in your town? What if the government used that as a excuse to bulldoze your house, cut off your food, and kill the neighbor kids?

It's happening!

Peace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 01:58pm PT
Skipper spun;

"Gee Karl, To imply (if not outright demand) nothing be done to protect innocent people until a "Fairness of killing" accounting procedure has been achieved is ridiculous. How far are you willing to carry on with this madness".

Skip never did Karl imply (or as you are wont to say "outright Demand" ) anything of the sort. Neither for that matter did I. We are both just presenting accurate and verifiable information about the comparative levels of death and destruction. And pointing out that it is unfair for Israel to claim self defense as a moral high ground to validate their utterly unreasonable responses. You want to try to say that the Palestinian Resistance is indiscriminately raining Hell fire and massive destruction on innocent Israellis. And this, you say, justifies anything the Israellis want to do in retaliation. This is simply not the truth. No one is trying to "give a pass" to Palestinians. Only point out the truth of their resistance. Largely ineffective and desperately futile. All of these troublesome rocket attacks combined haven't done a whole lot of death and destruction in Israel. Much less in fact than even one unsettler incursion into Palestinian lands particularly during harvest time. And those happen multiple times daily. They just don't get reported in the Western Press. In fact the average daily death toll of Palestinians and destruction of Palestinian lands and property caused by Israeli fundamentalists vastly exceeds The totals of all the rocket attacks coming from the open air internment camp that is Gaza. Does this reality "give a pass" to the horrors of some Palestinian resistance actions? No! Even though occupied peoples have a right to resist guaranteed by international law. But it does cast an appalling light on the outrageous brutality of the ILLEGAL Israelli occupation. So why do you want to "give a pass" to Israel while condemning us because in your imagination we are doing the same for Hamas. We aren't, YOU ARE. WHY? You want to babble on about Israel just being better at warfare. But in comparison what real chance did Native Americans face against the cannon and saber charges of the US cavalry? The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is a parallel situation. What we are observing is the relentless implementation of Zionist Manifest Destiny. Like the Native peoples of The Americas the Palestinians are regarded as subhuman savages who must be removed or eliminated by any and all means. And at all cost, spare no expense, particularly since we the US taxpayers are paying for it. This is NOT a fair fight in which to compare warcraft skills Skipt. Many hundreds of billions of US Taxpayer dollars have been able to guarantee that the playing field stay as unlevel as possible. This is not two equal armies of warriors met on an open level ground. To the victor go the spoils. This truly is a David and Goliath metaphor. Only this time the roles are reversed. The Palestinian Davids armed with their sling shots resisting the brutal and illegal occupation of the Israeli Goliath armed with the latest and greatest weapons of all time. This is the moral equivalent of the French and Polish Underground's resistance to the German War Machine. Though even the mere proximity of the words Israel and Nazi will get plenty of people frothing at the orifices it surprises me that they can not (more likely will not) recognize parallel patterns. There is absolutely no intent on the part of Israeli fundamentalists to allow a two state solution. There is no intent to share any of the land. All the Palestinians must leave or die, in Ben Gurion's own words "as fast as world opinion will allow".

Intent, motive, methods and tactics all parallel. Including the active vilification of the
occupied by the occupier. It doesn't much matter if you say dirty injun or kraut or jap or raghead or jew. Once you get to plugging those blanket labels into the thinking that "the only good one is a dead one" it just becomes another retelling of a bad story. The now considered heroic Poles who resisted the Nazis used many of the same tactics that all underground resistances employ. They were also vilified by the Nazis in the same way the Palestinians have been misrepresented by Israel and the Western Press. When the Nazis took reprisal action for acts of resistance they did exactly what the IDF does now. The Nazis used collective punishment almost as effectively as that which the Palestinians are made to endure.

And yet you don't care do you Skip? You have been endlessly told and thus feel like the Palestinians are the evil aggressors, the "terrorists". Since they have no right they deserve what the get right? You like millions of an earlier generation want to ignore the "rumors" of atrocities that have flittered past your hearing. "The Germans are decent people and honorable warriors there is just no way they could be that inhuman and brutal". Thus we are told to believe that all Jews are innocent victims and all Arabs particularly those dirty Palestinians are evil doers, bad people, terrorist.

So Skip please answer the following question; If you were in the same boat as the American Indians or the Occupied Poles or French or God forbid the Palestinians what would you do?

This is a multiple choice question so pick only one answer.

a: Do nothing. Capitulate.

b: Do their bidding. Collaborate.

c: Resist. By any means possible.

What kind of man are you Skipt?

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 02:07pm PT
And once again Skip YOU are the only one talking about A Fairness Test.
None of us are supporting the deaths of anyone on either side particularly children.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 02:47pm PT
Daffty ol' boy since you missed it the first time I posted as a response to your feeling like you "shot me down" Here it is again. No BS only truth. As usual you proved nothing.

There you have Skipt insisting that he doesn't have to research any facts because he just "knows" that thousands and thousands of Jews have been killed by Gaza rockets. Which is a compete fantasy. Yet he "knows" it's true. No BS there.
Talk about a "pants load". And yet you think I offer nothing. You say that Islam, the fastest growing religion on earth, is on the brink of extinction. Really? More than a billion people on the verge of extinction? From what cause, and for what reason? Certainly not the rantings of a single artificially empowered and largely ignored Mufti. If the boogie man Grand Mufti was such a big threat why did even Simon Wiesenthal ignore him? Like you he was a propaganda tool. The fact is Judaism is the religion on the decline not Islam. Which is part of why so many of you are running and acting scared. And lying through your teeth. The truth is hard to accept sometimes. Which is why I am not surprised that you and Skip and others try so hard to discredit me. If you can't deny the message destroy the messenger.

The real question is why do you post here Jeff?
And the other question is why don't you guys read my climbing posts and threads?


Well DaftRat, most eminent scholar of one sided history, read the truth and choke on a matza ball.


http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story420.html

Aren't Palestinians as responsible as their leader al-Hajj Amin Hussieni who collaborated with the Nazis during WW II?
Post Your Comment (9 comments) eMail to a friend
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למאמר בעברית
Posted on August 2, 2001



Unfortunately, to the Palestinian people this question implies that they should pay the price for the collaboration of a single person with the Nazis! Although there were a minority of Palestinians who collaborated with the Nazis, a whole nation cannot pay the price for the choices of a few. It's not just that the Palestinian people (and most of the Arab countries as well) aided the allies with men and logistical support, they also ignored the call for Jihad, against the Allies, that was declared by al-Hajj Amin in April, 1941 (Righteous Victims, p. 165).

Since the Palestinian people were promised full independence in 1949, and strict limitation on Jewish immigration to Palestine, based on the 1939 White Paper, the Palestinian people had an incentive to help the Allies win the war. It should be noted that several Palestinian brigades were enlisted into the British Army, and the Palestinian resistance to the brutal British occupation almost completely ceased during and after WW II.

In general, the Palestinian people are proud of the fact that they were among the few who did not collaborate openly with Nazis. On the other hand, the peoples and governments of France, Italy, Japan, Romania, Croatia, Chechnya, Bulgaria, Switzerland, ... etc. all collaborated openly with the Nazis. Tragically, many of these peoples and governments happily pointed out their Jewish citizens to the Gestapo. So it's unfair, if not outright criminal, to exploit al-Hajj Amin's conduct in order to eternally condemn the Palestinian people as Nazis, while ignoring the choices made by most European peoples and governments who openly collaborated with the Nazis.

In that regard, it's worth noting that Josef Stalin, the Soviet premier and dictator, forcibly transferred the people of the Caucasus to Siberia as a collective punishment for their collaboration with the Nazis during WWII. However, the same people were allowed to return to their homes in 1958 when the scale of the war crime became known to Khruschev, Stalin's successor in the 1950s. If the people of the Caucasus were allowed to return to their homes under Communist rule, why can't the Palestinian refugees return to their homes under Israeli rule?

IRONICALLY, the shocking truth is that it has been proven that the Jewish Stern gang received funding and arms from the Italian Fascists to resist the British Mandate in Palestine. In fact, the Stern gang's collaboration with the Fascists and Nazis was going on while their Jewish brothers were being persecuted in Nazi concentration camps. It should also be noted that when the Americans, British, and their Arab allies were busy blocking the Desert Fox's (Erwin Rommel) advances in north Africa, the Stern gang's leader Yitzhak Shamir and the Irgun gang's leader Menachem Begin were busy ambushing British soldiers, blowing up the vital Haifa-Cairo railroad supply line, and terrorizing British and Palestinian civilians (Righteous Victims, p. 174). And when Yitzhak Shamir, Israel's future Prime Minister in the 1980s, was asked to explain their collaboration with the Fascists, he replied:

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." (One Palestine Complete , p. 464).

Since these findings have only have only JUST started to surface lately (and are kept smothered in many Jewish communities), we feel it's necessary to directly quote one of the MOST pro-Israel historians, Martin Gilbert, who wrote:

"Avraham Stern who had formed a breakaway 'Irgun in Israel' movement (also known as the Stern Gang), tried to make contact with Fascist Italy in the hope that, if Mussolini were to conquer the Middle East, he would allow a Jewish State to be set up in Palestine. When Mussolini's troops were defeated in North Africa, Stern tried to make contacts with Nazi Germany, hoping to sign a pact with Hitler which would lead to a Jewish State once Hitler had defeated Britain. After two members of the Stern's Gang had killed the Tel Aviv [British] police chief and two of his officers, Stern himself was caught and killed. His followers [chief among them Yitzhak Shamir who led the Stern Gang after Stern's death] continued on their path of terror." (Israel: A History, p. 111-112)

What makes many Palestinians and Arabs EXTREMELY ANGRY is that the memories of the Holocaust are being exploited to paint Palestinians as Nazis. Such dangerous comparison and propaganda tactics are continuously fed to many Israeli school children from inception, especially upon visiting the Holocaust museum at Yad Vashem. It should be emphasized that many life size pictures of al-Hajj Amin standing alongside Hitler are on display at Yad Vashem, just West of Jerusalem not far from DEIR YASSIN. It's hypocritical to hold Palestinians responsible for the "ill fated" choice of al-Hajj Amin, while Israelis and Jews still blind themselves to the choices some of their leaders made during WW II.

Related Links

Zionist Quotes: Bible & Holocaust Exploitation
Ze'ev Jabotinsky being PROUD of his fascist uniform
A scanned copy of the document sent by the Stern Gang asking Nazi Germany for alliance
Pres. George Bush: US should have acted on Auschwitz
Merkel: Germans ashamed over Holocaust
The Untermensch Syndrome: Israel's Moral Decay

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
Fatty, if you must bring up WW2, the Israelis collaborated with Mussolini no?

skip wrote

"Karl, you continue to offer up arguments that are foolish.

I will stand by my "thousands upon thousands" of dead innocents at the hand of Hammas. "

You are the one being foolish.

First, do you know the origins of Hamas? Much like Al Queda was founded with US support to foil the Soviets in Afghanistan, Hamas is said to be the stepchild of the Mossad to foil Arafat.

"According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".

Hamas is a creation of Mossad. Mossad is like the Central Intelligence Agency of Israel, for those of you not so well informed.

Mossad allowed Hamas, an extremist political organization, to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. At the same time, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah party, which was a modern non-violent and secular movement, was repressed and subjugated.

It is ironic that Israel created its most potent and threatening enemy by its own hands."

Hamas was created in 1987

"Hamas officials have stated several times that they are willing to stop attacks on Israeli civilian targets if Israel stops attacking Palestinian civilian targets in return.[122] In May 2003, Abdel Aziz Rantisi has said,

"The Hamas movement is prepared to stop terror against Israeli civilians if Israel stops killing Palestinian civilians ... We have told (Palestinian Authority Prime Minister) Abu Mazen in our meetings that there is an opportunity to stop targeting Israeli civilians if the Israelis stop assassinations and raids and stop brutalizing Palestinian civilians."[123]

Hamas has been responsible for launching suicide attacks against Israeli civilians; the group sees the attacks as the main element of its asymmetric warfare against Israel.

Hamas' first use of suicide bombing occurred on April 16, 1993 when a suicide bomber driving an explosive-laden van detonated between two buses parked at a restaurant. It was Hamas' 19th known attack since 1989 (the others being shootings, kidnappings and knife attacks)"

Above and below From

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

"Overall, from November 2000 to April 2004, 377 Israeli citizens and soldiers were killed and 2,076 wounded in 425 attacks by Hamas.[125] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs maintains a comprehensive list of Hamas attacks"

so Let's see, during the most violent period of Hamas killing, they killed 377 Israeli citizens and Soldiers. (not all innocents if you acknowledge there is a war) That's about as many Palestinian citizens and Soldiers that have been killed in the past few days by Israel. The most deadly day of Hamas killing in history killed 30 Israelis, and, since they didn't start suicide bombing until 1991, they got off to a slow start.

So they couldn't have "Killed" thousands and thousands. Even 'One thousand" may be a stretch.

But you don't care about facts it seems and I wonder if you are even reading these posts. You just believe what you want to believe because you harbor a prejudice against Islam.

Guess what. I do too. I'm friends with Jews, I have had serious Jewish girlfriends, I've lived in Jewish households and worked in a Jewish Business delivering to Yeshiva's and Jewish retreats. I have little in common with the Palestinians.

Still, as a human, it's my duty to call this honestly. Israel has a duty to quit stoking the fire as "world opinion allows" to force these people out

peace

Karl




Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 03:00pm PT
I hope I'm done posting on this thread. Rather do something productive with my time besides doing research for folks to don't read it and believe what they want to believe and state the exact opposite of documented facts.

At least read Philo's post above regarding who supported the Nazi more

Peace

karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
Are you refuting the info Philo posted above fatty or just ignoring it for the second time?

peace

karl
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
Karl - don't need to remind you nothing is 'illegal' when you have a badge and a government to back you up.
...that patch of dirt is ours now...see it says so on this
official piece of paper!

Everyone who can does it.

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
My vote is he is ignoring it for a second time. It doesn't fit into the AIPAC talking points for the day.



Daffty the earlier Mufti was an honorable man who many including indigenous Jews looked up to. But his role was largely ceremonial and superfluous. The "Grand" Mufti that you are so fond of as the archetypical Palestinian was largely ignored and mostly reviled by the Palestinians. The Office of "GRAND" Mufti was an artifice created by the British in hopes of rallying the Arabs to the allied cause in spite of the recent brutal british occupation. As usually happens when colonial powers try to seat a strongman puppet it backfired.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 28, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
"He also stood by while Hammas killed Palestinians and said nothing."

Baloney. You don't know Philo. You have no idea what he has done or hasn't done. How may times must we tell you that we decry what Hamas has done before you accept this?

What Israel has done has gone into the area of vengeance. They are no longer simply protecting themselves. Did you give up on Jesus' teachings? It certainly appears that you have. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.

What Karl is trying to teach you is to look at both sides of the equation. Fatty would have you believe that it is simply a matter of hamas stopping sending rockets and then Israel would act all nice. Nothing is further from the truth. Perhaps if you tried to put yourself in the Palistinians shoes, you would understand this.

but you wont because your ego is involved. Oh well.

Karl and Jello are correct. You don't want to know, so there is no further point in trying to talk to you.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 04:03pm PT
Hamas itself is multifaceted.

They actually won real democratic elections because their charitable arm was well regarded for strict rectitude and lack of corruption. Sadly, the more secular and more moderate Palestinian Authority is also rife with corruption. The people voted for who they thought really cared about them.

They are also terrorists.

The original leaders of Israel were also terrorist. They killed British.

Wake up. All the hands are dirty. It's better to stand up for justice on all sides than pick a dirty side and let em act dirty

If you know so much Skip, why did you stand by "Thousands and Thousands" when it coudn't possibly be true?

peace

karl
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
"Wake up. All the hands are dirty. It's better to stand up for justice on all sides than pick a dirty side and let em act dirty".

Well said Karl my sentiments exactly.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 28, 2008 - 04:13pm PT
I'm with Karl too.
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Dec 28, 2008 - 04:16pm PT
im not with anyone at the moment, but I think the Nazi card gets thrown down WAYYYY too often. Nonsense.

Its very fair to say neither side is "lily white" in terms of wrongs committed. Human nature being what it is, one side will have to "win" for any closure to result or else there will constantly be this back and forth fighting.

As I see it, if Israel "wins" it would not be without the death of innocents but the end result would not be extermination and death camps and the like. I'd rather see the Israelis win than Hamas. Winning is never without cost. Arguing about who will win more cleanly is utter nonsense.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 04:37pm PT
One or two people dead on one side does not justify making life total hell for several million people.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/28/gaza.humanitarian/index.html

Peace

karl
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
Skipper you are sounding like the kid on the playground saying... "Oh yeah, well my dad can beat up your dad".
And nothing you are saying bears the slightest semblance to what people are actually saying. And yet you persist on misrepresenting. You seem desperate. Take a time out. We and the truth will still be here for you.
Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 28, 2008 - 05:35pm PT
Damn Skip, did you take the time to type that out? It doesn't look like a "cut and paste."
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 28, 2008 - 06:01pm PT
Skip, I understand that you do not condone torture. The point is that you voted for George Bush who does support torture, and if you want to avoid reaping the consequences of your actions, then you needed to do something about it. At the very least you could have written your representatives and told them that you do not support torture. Assuming that they know your mind like Lois assumes is a mistake. You will eventually reap what you sow. I was trying to help you avoid that.

Isn't that no different then your demand that the palistinian people do something about their leadership?

The difference between what I believe and how the Isrealis act is that I don't think that you should be tortured just because you support George Bush. Nor do I think the Palistinians should be deprived of water because they voted for Hamas or that their homes should be demolished because one of their children fights back against Israel. These are acts of vengeance and do nothing to solve the problems.

An act of vengeance does nothing to solve an act of vengeance.

I could sit here all day and call you a moron. Say that you are full of sh#t. Go on and on about what an idiot you are, but this would solve nothing.

So I am trying to learn from my mistakes and the actions of others and not repeat these mistakes over and over again.

If you will not learn from me, then heed the words of Jesus.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.

Love you enemies as yourself.

Of course you must learn to love yourself before you will have much success at loving others. This is the area that I struggle with.

I don't think that you are a moron. I think that you have hardened your heart to the plight of the Palistinians and thus you find it too difficult to see their side.

No one has asked you to take their side blindly, we have simply asked you to see that Israel is not innocent in their actions. The only hope for peace is for both sides to see that they are doing bad things. Until that time, there is not hope for peace.

I have insulted you in the past. For this I have apologized and do continue to apologize. But at some point you have to accept the apology and stop flinging the past in my face.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 28, 2008 - 06:04pm PT
The Israelis at least TRY to avoid civilian casualities instead of sending nail-bombs into restaurants and night clubs.

Militants often operate against Israel from civilian areas, and that has led to steep civilian casualties in the past when Israel has retaliated. Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language voice mails on their cell phones from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473145,00.html
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
Right on cue Bluering with more diatribe and propaganda.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 28, 2008 - 06:38pm PT
philo, how many times will these people have to declare Intifadas against Israel before they learn they will lose and probably lose civilians too due to 'lions of Islam' hiding next to civilian buildings?

How many times? Until Israel surrenders and lets more nail-bombs into their borders? Should they show compassion again and be nail-bombed?

No more! The people of Palestine need to seek peaceful leaders, not anti-semites and 'monkey-haters'.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 06:47pm PT
I am not sure what "monkey haters" is intended to imply but you do realize that the Palestinians are also people of Semitic heritage? Don't you?

When will you get past the notion that Israel is exempt from condemnation for it's actions? Or that the Palestinians are fighting just because they are blood thirsty savages? Or that they have no just cause. Or that everything would be perfect if they just stopped and played nice because then Israel would play nice too. How long can you not pay attention?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 28, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK


Mercy Blue, the same could be said for Israel.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 28, 2008 - 06:51pm PT
Yes, I do, philo, but only Hamas refers to Jews as the children of monkeys. Remeber Hamas Mickey mouse?

How do they make that correlation if they're both Semitic people? Must be anti-semitism directly only at religious Jews. Sounds racist to me, at least bigoted. No?

Most of the people there get along, so why so much conflict? What is the source of this hatred in your opinion?


Edit: I know this sh#t is complex, John, that's why ya gotta watch it carefully.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 07:11pm PT
"Yes, I do, philo, but only Hamas refers to Jews as the children of monkeys".

Oh come on Blue did you miss all the quotes by leading Israelis that I posted that called the Palestinians all manner of animals unfit to exist? It's a two way street of thoughtless hate and violence.

"Most of the people there get along, so why so much conflict? What is the source of this hatred in your opinion"?

Since you asked please listen with an open mind. The conflict is the result of the Zionist movement's undeniable intent to create a modern theocracy consisting solely of Jews through out the whole of what they refer to as "Greater Israel". Only problem is the land already belonged to someone else, the Palestinians. Who have been forcible evicted from their land and homes and forced to live in oppressive, humiliating and brutal occupation ever since. While being the greater victims here the Palestinians have been systematically vilified to the point where any American incapable of free thought has been convinced that all Palestinians are Anti-Semitic Terrorists.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 07:15pm PT
Now stop all this nonsense and go read my Black Canyon & Red Rock climbing threads.
Then you can tell me how ignorant and illiterate I am on those threads as well.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 28, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
Maybe, philo, but the Islamists (not the Zionists) seem to be the more intolerant and unreasonable based on what I've seen fron that region.

Seems the Zionists are less likely to nail-bomb discos and send handicapped children laden with bombs into checkpoints.

Iran, and to a lesser extent, Syria, is the true wicked entity here. The Paleos and Lebanese would do themselves a favor by disassociating themselves from them.

Iran is the key...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
Skip declares those rockets a war crime, and perhaps they are, even though they kill few to none.

How about the same treatment for Israels unnecessary use of cluster bombs in Lebanon (invaded after 2 or 3 soldiers were captured) that the UN condemned and which were used around civilians and which continue to kill more kids than the sum total of all Palestinian terrorism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5299938.stm

"The UN's humanitarian chief has accused Israel of "completely immoral" use of cluster bombs in Lebanon.
UN clearance experts had so far found 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets at 359 separate sites, Jan Egeland said."

"What's shocking and completely immoral is: 90% of the cluster bomb strikes occurred in the last 72 hours of the conflict, when we knew there would be a resolution," he said.

Each of those bomblets are more dangerous than a rocket and continue to regularly kill civilian children

Lots of great people in Israel and many of them are more critical of their own country than the folks on this thread who see black and white where it doesn't exist.

Peace

karl
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
"Maybe, philo, but the Islamists (not the Zionists) seem to be the more intolerant and unreasonable based on what I've seen fron that region".

That is because you have not seen what really goes on in the occupied territories on a daily basis.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 28, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
That is because you have not seen what really goes on in the occupied territories on a daily basis.

Same old tired bullsh#t. This is all I hear from people like you. The Israelis didn't break the ceasefire by rocket attacks, nor did they start the 2006 campaign in Lebanon and Gaza. IT'S ALWAYS THOSE POOR PALESTINIANS THAT START UP THE SH#T!!! I, like Israel, am tired of brokered peace that always fails because Hamas and Fatah leaders only want blood and power. They will be removed one way or another.

Then the Palestinians may have peace (as long as though they don't vote for Iran-influenced gov't).

Again, Iran is the problem. Iran may attacked very soon.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 28, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
"Same old tired bullsh#t. This is all I hear from people like you. The Israelis didn't break the ceasefire by rocket attacks"

No they broke it by daily violence against the Palestinians in the illegally occupied territories. The number of Palestinian citizens (mostly women and children) who have died at the hands of Israelis during the ceasefire vastly outnumbers the number of Israeli dead from all rocket attacks combined.
Lafta

climber
Dec 28, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
Hamas was *established* by Israel.

This latest incident is all part of their plan.
That being...the eventual new world order.

Again, if world leaders speak of a new world order, do you not think it will someday be?
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=complete+idiot%27s+guide+to+the+NWO&hl=en&emb=0&aq=1#
Go on! Click the link! Or does that of which I speak, scare you?

I remember long ago speaking of a common currency for Europe and those hearing this would say---no way, never.
Well it's here. Why would you deny this could ever happen in North America?

They gave us this culture of cosumerism.
Now they are changing it to earth worship.

Obama will change nothing. Look to more war.
Do you recall,during his campaign saying he was against NAFTA?
Funny is it not, he has since reneged?

The Iraq war costs 250 million a day. Where do you think this money is coming from?

You are being programed/modified.
Not only that, we're being sterilized. So keep on eating those soy products. Rolling eyes icon.
Wake up!
http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 28, 2008 - 08:22pm PT
"No they broke it by daily violence against the Palestinians in the illegally occupied territories."

This is where we disagree, philo. Israelis don't launch random missiles daily, they just subject the poor Paleo to checkpoints. The have roadblocks for a reason. The paleos didn't bring it on, Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and the Pop Front brought this to the people of Palestine, NOT ISRAEL. ISRAEL JUST FIGHTS BACK!

Hopefully this time Israel eliminates Hamas once and for all. IJ is already kinda marginal. Maybe Fatah can do better in power with Hamas removed.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 28, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
You are misinformed blue.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 28, 2008 - 08:27pm PT
Lafta, what is a good course of action to take against the NWO?

Do you have any ideas to offer, beacuse you come off like a complete conspiracy quack otherwise? Everyone knows about the Illuminati, Free Masons, and the Bildeburgers.

WTF do you suggest?

Stop with the indirect quackery and f*#king propose something!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 28, 2008 - 08:37pm PT
"You are misinformed blue."

Am I really? Look at the facts and re-evaulate that.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
Dec 28, 2008 - 08:50pm PT
"Go Israel!"

Juan
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 28, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
I have looked at the fact Blue. You ignore anything that paints Israel in a bad light.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 28, 2008 - 09:09pm PT
How many videos of Israelis bulldozing houses will you need to see?
How many stories of Israeli snipers shooting kids will you need to hear?
How many stories of Israeli settlers beating up Palistinians will you need to hear?
How many times will you need to hear that Israel was created by stealing Palistinian lands

Before you realize that the Israelis ARE NOT INNOCENT.

Or course, Neither are the Palistinians. I KNOW THIS. PHILO KNOWS THIS. KARL KNOWS THIS. When will you get it through your thick skull.

VENGEANCE DOES NOT WORK.

It doesn't work for the Palistinians and it doesn't work for the Israelis.


Who shot first? WHO THE HECK KNOWS?

But hey, according to you, all the Palistinians need to do is stop firing rockets.

Bullsh#t.
scabang

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2008 - 09:46pm PT
Fattrad - i assume by your name that you haven't a snowballs hope in Hell of getting up 10.96. That said and the niceties over you are a prick/wanker/tosser of the highest order. AIPAC. ADL. I think a separate thread is warranted here as these two Nazi organizations are the reason for genocide in the West Bank & Gaza. Settlers? Nuke 'em all the despicable occupying, thieving BASTARDS!!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 11:08pm PT
"Now, the one during WWII could have done more and the ones during the the Christian conquests should have done much less.
"
Fatty's just being politic. The Catholic church and pope in particular gave into the Nazis during WW2 more than any Palestinians. Course they had more power to do so.

Just the way it was

Peace

karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 28, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
Every religion has elements with blood on it's hands. Catholicism has the crusades, inquisition, and collaboration with Nazi. Hinduism has violence during partition. Or course Islam has got a long list of issues.

I'm not judging bro. We're humans and the Pope is not infallible.

Peace

karl
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:54am PT
Much of my mother's family lived in Lebanon, until it was torn apart by civil war that was an outgrowth of the Arab-Israeli conflict, in which I hold the Israeli government as responsible as the Palestinians. I still have one first cousin in Beirut. I have no reason to support Israel, but the incivility of the anti-Israeli comments on this thread sickens me.

Of course there are two sides to this story, and I have often had more sympathy for the Palestinians than for the Israeli government (and sometimes, sad to say, its people) on many issues, but Israel was established by the world community, given the right to exist, threatened violently by its neighbors (except, of course, Lebanon!), and attacked with illegal deadly force continually.

In that circumstance, your calling the Israelis Nazis because they fight back, scabang, and your vitriolic, hate-mongering words I can only hold in contempt. Your comments aren't designed to foster debate; they only betray a seething, tormented, mind incapable of tolerating those with whom you disagree. That's rather like what you accuse the Israelis of doing.

Cut it out!

John
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
Dec 29, 2008 - 02:34am PT
Laser Guided Bombs made in America, F-16 Fighting Falcons.
AH-64, Helfire.

Like it has been said before - Palestinians are just pawns.

Keep up the good work Isreal.

God Bless and protect the Jews.

Juan
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:22am PT
For those who need a refresh map of where the dumbest peeps on earth reside:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/gaza_strip_may_2005.jpg

got to wonder if their DNA is warped. The Gaza is the best real estate on the globe and hamas has made it a ghetto. Not my choice
or anyone else's for a vacation. Idiots could be pulling in billions just like Hawaii or Cancun.



corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:57am PT
try this for a conspiracy: The Iranians need the price of crude to go up so as a last resort they pressure hamas to lob missile's into
Israel hoping for a armed response thus driving nervous investors to push the price of crude up, and helping Iran. Devious!
//
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aL30seWbtRNY&refer=home
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 29, 2008 - 06:45am PT
Skip

Sorry you're getting upset with me. Your upset is keeping you from seeing what's really being said in this thread. You've been ascribing statements and attitudes to me and others that are in your head, not ours.

and I"m not against Christianity either. I don't consider myself less of a Christain than you although your beliefs might judge otherwise.

Just stating some facts. Care to dispute them. What was the pope interaction with the Nazis in the war? Maybe I heard wrong.

a whole lot of Religions have been party to a whole lot of killing and that includes Islam, Christianity, and in this case, even Judaism as well. I'd like to see it stop on all sides. In any case, you know what Jesus said, It's easy to see the speck in everybody else's eye but easy to ignore the log in our own.

Peace

karl
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:16am PT
"This is where we disagree, philo. Israelis don't launch random missiles daily, they just subject the poor Paleo to checkpoints. The have roadblocks for a reason. The paleos didn't bring it on, Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and the Pop Front brought this to the people of Palestine, NOT ISRAEL. ISRAEL JUST FIGHTS BACK!

Blue you make it sound like the only struggle the Palestinians have is the inconvenience of check points. As if those check points were the equivalent of a road side sobriety test. Or at worst getting through airport security. This is far from the truth. Traveling around the territories is much harder than traveling behind the iron curtain through communist East Europe was. There are many places deep in the territories that have NO connection to Israel or Israeli security that are an nearly un passable obstacle course for children just trying to get to school, Men just trying to harvest their ancestral crops and women in labor trying to get to the hospital.
If my south Boulder home were in these areas I would have to get through at least three check points Just trying to get to Neptunes for a carabiner or the Southern sun for a beer. I would be obligated to wait hours at each check point. And mind you I live only a mile away. At each of those checkpoints I would be subjected to strip and cavity searches, harassment and humiliation. If I grumble I would be pulled aside for further interrogation. If I complain I will be beaten severely and likely jailed without cause or charges. Dammit I only wanted to get a new ATC and a brew! It would take me the better part of a day to travel that single mile. Now for the return trip....

You see Blue you have been sold a load of lies and misinterpretations. We in the west have been continuously sauteed in a one sided story line. You have been convinced that everything in Israel is perfect and peachy except those damn Palestinians causing all the trouble. You seem to believe if they just shut up and went away everything would be wonderful. But where would they go? This is their land, these are their homes. And I am currently only talking about Palestinian territory not Israel. The atrocity of jewish treatment of Palestinians that I am referring to takes place on Palestinian land not Jewish land. Sure the Israelis don't fire crude rockets on a daily basis. They don't need to they have all the advanced weaponry of the modern world at their disposal. Who needs quassams when you have predator drones. No the Israelis don't fire rockets daily. Instead they use Apache gun ships and tanks. They practice "targeted assassinations" and claim "collateral damage" when dozens of innocents die just to snuff one "bad guy". Then they accuse the "bad guy" of hiding behind civilians in residential areas. But have you ever been to Gaza or seen pictures? The whole place is one giant immensely crowded residential area. There is no room for separate and dedicated military bases. This is urban warfare like Warsaw or Moscow in WW2. No one but the Germans complained about the freedom fighters operating out of civilian areas. There was (and is) NO where else to fight from.
But Blue what I am specifically referring to when I reference Daily violence against Palestinians is the acts of the illegal settlers on stolen Palestinian lands. The death toll and cost of destruction that occurs on a daily basis in these areas makes the damage done by Gaza rocket attacks pale to near insignificance. Which is vastly different than saying I approve of these acts. I may "understand" but I don't condone. I don't condone the violence on either side. But you really owe it to yourself to find out more about the reality of daily life on the ground for Palestinians. But please don't simply take Fattrad's word. If you want I can provide a list of quality documentaries that verifiably present the truth about the situation on the ground.

And by the way I find the use of "Paleos" to be derogatory and offensive.

"Hopefully this time Israel eliminates Hamas once and for all. IJ is already kinda marginal. Maybe Fatah can do better in power with Hamas removed".

Funny thing is Blue Israel created Hamas to be a counter force to Fatah authority. Now there was a brilliant plan eh? It makes you think that tactical genius Donny Rumsfeld thought it up all by himself.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:56am PT
Hawkeye That is absurd on so many levels and in no way a realistic comparison.

First the Gaza rockets if fired from Mexico would, as most in Israel do, fall harmlessly to open ground. They don't have much range and little explosive charge.

Numerous variants of the Qassam rocket have been developed and launched. The Qassam-1, first used in October 2001, had a maximum range of approximately 3-4.5km. The rocket was approximately 60mm in diameter and weighed about 5.5kg. The Qassam-2, used primarily from 2002-2005 was approximately 180cm long, had a maximum range of 8-9.5km and could carry a payload of 5-9kg. Beginning in 2005, newer types of Qassam rockets known as the Qassam-3 were developed, possessing a maximum range of 10-12km and carrying a payload of 10-20kg.

A total of about 450 Qassam rocket attacks were launched against Israel over the two years 2003 and 2004.

These glorified Estes rockets wouldn't make it from one side of LA to the other.


Second we are not occupying, subjugating, brutalizing and terrorizing the Mexicans. What pretext would they have to attack us with rockets? It was an absurd comparison. That's how I like it.

Now go read my Black Canyon or Red Rock stories.

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:15am PT
Nice response Skippy. Intelligent, thoughtful and reasoned. All the things we have come to expect from you boy. Did you think it up all on your own or did mommy help you? It's either that or your surrogate yarmulke is a little too tight.
How does it go? Let me think. Oh yeah, BWAHAHAHA.


Oh and little Skipper for your information my wife just returned from three weeks in Palestine and Israel. She was on an international peace delegation. Part of their mission was to protect Palestinians from the violence and aggression of the illegal unsettlers. Do you want to see her slides or is the truth too much for you to handle?

So when are you going to put your limited funds where your prodigious pie hole is?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:24am PT
Whew what's that smell?
Oh never mind it's just Little Skippy frothing at the orifice again.

Skip to the loo your full of poo.


Hey since you guys get all frothed like a latte if anyone dares mention Israel and Nazis in the same sentence how about a new term. A term to counter the racist and derogatory use of the term Islamofacists that they love to bandy about. How about the term Nazraelis to describe the hard corp religious fundamentalists of the Zionist movement? Yeah, Nazraelis, I like it. How about you Skippypoo?
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:39am PT
I came up with an idea that actually could go very far in achieving rehabilitation between the peoples of Isreal and Palestine and those of the same who live elsewhere.

It's called PaleSrael Anon. A 12-Step program for those who have been affected.
* Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over the conflict and that our lives had become unmanageable
* Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
* Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God
* Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
* Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
* Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
* Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings
* Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all
* Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
* Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
* Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out
* Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others suffering, and to practice these principles in all our affairs


Of course - it's not for those who NEED help, but those who WANT it. There are many,many people who are sick and tired of living through that conflict. They want OFF. Like addict parents, the governments have shown themselves incapable of change for SO long that anyone with a clue can see it only ends in death and destruction.

Modeled after the original AA program, it's pretty simple. One shares their experience, strength and hope with another sufferer. Two Israelis can start a meeting with each other and bring other Israelis. The same with two Palestinians. Men's groups. Women's groups. Children's groups! Before long(a generation? Two? LESS???!!!) they will see Israelis and Palestinians able to share ONE meeting and the lives that go with it outside those rooms.

This is actually a serious idea, and I only wish I knew how to better get the word out to people who might be interested to try it. Those with any connection to people over there - won't you help carry the message and pass this post along? It only takes TWO people, willing to share with each other, to light this candle than can bring peace from within.

It CAN work.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:43am PT
Why Skipper? Karl and Dingus and others are making rational, reasonable well presented points. You are just pissing yourself. Grow up boy!

As usual you never answered a question presented to you. So I will post it again.
So Skip please answer the following question; If you were in the same boat as the American Indians or the Occupied Poles or French or God forbid the Palestinians what would you do?

This is a multiple choice question so pick only one answer.

a: Do nothing. Capitulate.

b: Do their bidding. Collaborate.

c: Resist. By any means possible.

What kind of man are you Skipt?

We are all waiting to see what kind of man you are Skip.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:46am PT
Happiegirl you might be surprised to know that compassionate listening circles between Israelis and Palestinians are occurring every day. The are powerful transformative processes that actually stand a chance at promoting peace. If you want more info my wife, who just returned from there could fill you in.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:53am PT
Allright Skip now that was funny. Good for you a sense of humor after all.


But why won't you answer a simple hypothetical question?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 10:05am PT
Maybe third time is the charm.


So Skip please answer the following question; If you were in the same boat as the American Indians or the Occupied Poles or French or God forbid the Palestinians what would you do?

This is a multiple choice question so pick only one answer.

a: Do nothing. Capitulate.

b: Do their bidding. Collaborate.

c: Resist. By any means possible.

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 10:08am PT
You start.

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 10:19am PT
Should the Tibetans just "learn to get along" with the Chinese occupiers?
Did The Jews of the Warsaw ghetto just "learn to get along" with the Nazis?
Did the Negroes of the American south just "learn to get along" with the slave owners?

Please spend a little time reading about the conditions of occupation and tell me honestly if, you were in their shoes, could just "learn to get along".

Because Skip I don't think you could just "learn to get along". Based on your passionate defense of your beliefs I think it likely that you would be a tremendously effective "freedom fighter". In fact I would go so far as to say you would likely be on the occupiers "most wanted" list.

Or would you just roll over and take it up the a$$?
"Please sir may I have some more".
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Dec 29, 2008 - 10:35am PT
Philo wrote: "Happiegirl you might be surprised to know that compassionate listening circles between Israelis and Palestinians are occurring every day. The are powerful transformative processes that actually stand a chance at promoting peace. If you want more info my wife, who just returned from there could fill you in."

That is wonderful to know. More power to them.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 11:00am PT
"I'm pretty sure American Indians are still around as well as the Tibetans.
Who knows maybe those guys were just funing with me when I lived o the Navajo Nation.
And, wasn't the Dali Lama in the White house a few weeks ago?"


You are making quite an argument against a "Jewish homeland" there skippy.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 11:09am PT

You aren't much good with answers are you Skip?

Because this; "And which one of these groups fired off rockets into unrelated, innocent civilian homes". isn't much of an answer.

And this; "And which one of these groups fired off rockets into unrelated, innocent civilian homes". only goes to illustrate the fact that the answer to the question for some Palestinians is C. To fight back with any means possible.

And given all that has actually occurred on the ground, this part "into unrelated, innocent civilian homes", is a moot point.

You are dodging and obfuscating Skip. I don't believe you can answer the question because it would expose a fundamental dilemma of beliefs.

You can't answer for the same reason Israel won't declare definitive borders. They can't because there are no definitive borders. All the land is theirs forever. That is what they cling to.
You can't answer for the same motivation that keeps the "Only Democracy in the Middle East" from ratifying a constitution. Isn't sixty years sufficient time for a so called democracy to ratify their constitution? They won't because there would have to be provisions for non Jewish indigenous peoples. The can't because their is no provision for non Jewish indigenous peoples. They have no intent to have any non Jews in Greater Israel. All arabs must go! Initially the predominately radical Zionist founders of the state of Israel thought it would only take 30 years for world opinion to allow them to eradicate the land of Arab inhabitants. It has been taking a bit longer than they hoped. It seems world opinion wasn't always on their side for some reason. What the founders failed to recognize was the passionate connection to the land that the indigenous Palestinians had. My wife's family can definitively trace their Christian Arab lineage and legal claim of possession to land all over Israel and the Occupied Territories. And they can do it for well over 14 centuries of history. It seems the Arabs were really great note takers and preservers of every ones history. They were the learned scribes who kept the books and documented the events. To this day among Palestinians education is the most important priority.
Skip if you read nothing else I could suggest a story about school children's ordeals to go to school under curfew of occupation. It might break your heart. These could be any one's children. They just happen to be palestinian. You might not appreciate the sheer courage of the teachers who risked their lives to teach kids. But surely the kids stories would reach you. Perhaps in particular the part about their art show.
Every one's children deserve to be as free and safe as possible!
Wouldn't you agree Skip?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 11:29am PT
philo,

"It is you saying that it is OK to send rockets into innocent peoples homes who have nothing to do with this conflict. Not I".

NO Skip it is NOT I who is saying that! I never have go read my posts.

"It is very important to point out that the groups you speak of (Tibetans, African Americans.....) never once thought it OK to kill innocent people completely unrelated to the incidents in question".

Better check your historical facts there Skip.

"Seems to me Ghandi handled his problems pretty successfully".

Yes Skip he did and he was brutalized for it. Like Nelson Mandella also was.
Believe it or not there are several "Gandhi-an" Palestinian peace activists. But the significant difference between India under the British and Palestine under the Israelis is Gandhi enjoyed unfettered travel and access to the whole country to rally support for non violent resistance. Conversely NO Palestinian is allowed unfettered travel and few are allowed to travel the whole of the so called country.

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 11:34am PT
I like how you call it a "fence" Fattrad. Have you seen that "fence" Fattrad?
That "fence" dwarfs the Berlin Wall. Care to see some pictures of that "fence"

And where exactly will that "fence" finally stand Jeff?

Draw a line on a map of Palestine/Israel then sign it and post it please Jeff.


I mean come on all your other geo-political prognostications have been "spot on".
WBraun

climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 11:37am PT
This thread confirms this age of Kali is the iron age of hypocrisy and quarrel.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 11:40am PT
Sorry Werner.
I have been trying to cut back. Nasty drug a belief system is.
You could avoid the political chaos threads and read my climbing stories about Red Rock and the Black Canyon instead?

Think of it as an instead thread.

Bump the climbing threads to the front page so to speak. Or so to type.
WBraun

climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 11:44am PT
Don't worry Philo. These threads don't bother me.

I was just pointing out the real world ....
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 11:47am PT
Wait! The world IS real!?!?!? Now I am confused and probably need a rescue.
Werner do you make house calls?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Dec 29, 2008 - 11:51am PT
Phil, take the silver bullet out for a cruise, and let the snow slide off your cag....
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
Dec 29, 2008 - 11:56am PT
Wow! This one is jumping, as is any thread dealing with Israel. I just read the first and last few pages.

I'm not sure Nazis is was the right word... I've always considered Israel to be States sponsored terrorists. Seems more fitting to me.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 29, 2008 - 12:34pm PT
Skip, maybe if you get some time you can read the thread for the beginning and notice that you've got into a reactive mode where you're not your best self. It shows but you don't know it. You're not responding to any facts, nor are your stating any. You're just making assumptions and expanding on them.

Now say they are gangs in your town and they are robbing innocent tourists at the park. Nobody seems to be able to stop them. Is that an excuse to lock down the town, bomb it (killing lots of kids) and cut off it's food and power supply? There are millions of people living in tiny Gaza.

FYI, I've never been Buddhist. I'm every bit as much Christian as Buddhist. But our ability to look at our own actions and those of our faith are important. You're making a lot of blanket statements about the Palestinians but think it's somehow sacrilage to note that your own faith has been involved with murder of innocents just as widespread and unjustified as any Palestinian resistance (or is history spreading lies? Give us some counter-evidence)

You wrote

"It is very important to point out that the groups you speak of (Tibetans, African Americans.....) never once thought it OK to kill innocent people completely unrelated to the incidents in question."

Actually some Tibetans, African Americans and such did, they were just in the minority.

"Seems to me Ghandi handled his problems pretty successfully.

Of course he was killed by a radical Muslim."

Actually, Gandhi was killed by a radical Hindu who thought Gandhi was giving away too much power to the Muslims in negotiations.

Ironic

Peace

Karl
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 29, 2008 - 12:40pm PT
Karl, I've noticed Skipt's change in demeanor too. I suppose it's natural when dealing the unsolvable problem of our time, and debating people on the other side of the issue.

There aren't easy solutions and the tit-for-tat nature of this conflict is frustrating, hard to define who's retaliating for what.

I'll stick to my guns and say Iran is the root of this ongoing conflict. It wasn't originally but it now perpetuates the conflict through proxies.

The f*#king Saudis never help either.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 12:41pm PT
"You're just making assumptions and expanding on them."

Karl,

I think you have pointed out one of the major reasons for the mess in the first place.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 12:43pm PT
I was going to mention that Hindu thing but didn't want to overload Skip.

Karl you seem like you might be a formidable and enjoyable opponent at chess.


Survival were you going to say "cage"?
The Philvo is still purring along.
Can''t decide if we should sell it as a redundant vehicle or
keep it around till my eldest decides he finally wants a license.

Happy New Year to you all. Even you Skip. I really mean it!
dirtbag

climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
I think a brand new Hooters restaurant opening door would make a good neighbor.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:04pm PT
You guys don't really help the issue by looking at this as a 'me against you' arguement. The paleo people always suffer the most (sometimes Israeli settlers) and Hamas or Fatah plays the victim card.

The paleo people should reject ALL violence against Israel and seek help from Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. As in neutral leadership w/o Iranian ties. That rules out Syria, but Jordan should step up to the plate here. Jordan is a pretty moderate gov't...reasonable.

Why do they never get much help from their 'brothers'?
dirtbag

climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:13pm PT
Cool...I'll send you my address Fatty.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:13pm PT
bluering,

Look closely and understand what you are typing........ and apply it to the "the other side" - who's opinion and concerns are just as valid.
Bamm_Bamm

Social climber
I'm lost, Please help me!!!
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:15pm PT
I can't believe I am doing this again.

While skipt may be all of the things you say here in this thread say, they don't even come close to vitriol hatred that I have watched in this forum for the last year.

I think this is just a matter of "You can't take what you dish out" thing going on. Your being hoisted on your very own petard.

And Karl, I have watched your posts also,

You do bash other peoples religion a lot. You just do it subtly to cover it up.

Its still bashing no matter how you do it.

Peace
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
Warner, NH
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:19pm PT
Shame on you. All of you.

This is a conflict that has been raging for centuries, and you think you know the solution?

This is none of our business. I take a side, yet I choose to leave it unsaid. Why? Because it's not our business!

I understand that we need to keep diplomatic ties through this whole situation, but the thought of imposing our might sickens me.

Let me clarify, so you don't get it twisted. By might, I only mean diplomatic muscle flexing. I think that we need to quit being a nation that condones and supports foreign wars and one that understands is might, yet chooses not to use it.

I believe in peace, intervention in others issues seems counter intuitive, as it only breeds more violence.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
Doug, try to state you points more clearly to limit the 'chatter' on these threads.

Hamas was elected in a democratic manner by the people. It is a legit gov't entity that condones mortars and rocket-fire against Israel, sometimes indirectly.

As a legit gov't entity, Hamas has an obligation to police it's borders and reign in 'rogue' elements that may jepordize it's positions. Islamic Jihad, Pop Front, etc, get almost free reign under Hamas.

That's wrong. If Hamas can't control it's people as a gov't they need a change.

This brings us to why Hamas was elected. The promised the world and delivered next to nothing. The are just power-hounds, they don't give a crap about the civi population.

Israel is defending it's civi's from a terrorist onslaught.

Edit: Bamm Bamm's right too, Karl. You're more subtle, but no better than Skipt in letting you rage come through. I do it too!
WoodySt

Trad climber
Riverside
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
Israel should take a lesson from WWII: obliterate the Palestinian/Hamas Authority; reduce the Palestinians to the state of prehistory; crush the moral of the Palestinian people to the point of total collapse. Make it clear that this is their future to the end of time unless they are willing to except the future existence of Israel unequivocally. As with the Axis powers at the end of WWII, now you can rebuild with an independent, Palestinian state. Establish a neutral commission of democratic states to oversee the final settlements. It would be fair for Israel to deny right of return and except the 67 boundaries. Israeli settlements in the West Bank would be required to evacuate or they would be left behind and on their own -- kiss them off. An international body would oversee the economic rebuilding of the Palestinian state with total independence from Israeli interference. The US would have to monitor the above with the understanding that the US would take a rigid, neutral stance and mean it. It would be understood that radicals on either side would be crushed.

Brutal. Yes brutal. Remember, though, that the majority of Palestinians have supported the policies of Hamas and the PLO in respect to the attacks etc. Sometimes it's necessary to tear all the way down to rebuild. The above is radical. One side or the other is going to have to win completely or this will continue on and on.

This won't happen of course; but something like it will happen or the day will come when far worse will in the ME.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:35pm PT
Woody, you may be right. It may have to happen to settle the conflict.

I ask everyone though, why has the West Bank been so silent in this conflict? Is it because it is controlled by Fatah and not Hamas? Is Fatah the future of Palestine?

Hamas definately is not. Fatah, with their flaws, is more reasonable than Hamas. Abbas is no saint, but he's somewhat reasonable.

This crap needs to end...one way or another, it stokes too many other conflicts (justifiably so or not).
dirtbag

climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
Be sure to pitch to him our Hooters idea.
couchmaster

climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 02:25pm PT
JEleazarian said: Much of my mother's family lived in Lebanon, until it was torn apart by civil war that was an outgrowth of the Arab-Israeli conflict, in which I hold the Israeli government as responsible as the Palestinians. I still have one first cousin in Beirut. I have no reason to support Israel, but the incivility of the anti-Israeli comments on this thread sickens me.

Of course there are two sides to this story, and I have often had more sympathy for the Palestinians than for the Israeli government (and sometimes, sad to say, its people) on many issues, but Israel was established by the world community, given the right to exist, threatened violently by its neighbors (except, of course, Lebanon!), and attacked with illegal deadly force continually.

In that circumstance, your calling the Israelis Nazis because they fight back, scabang, and your vitriolic, hate-mongering words I can only hold in contempt. Your comments aren't designed to foster debate; they only betray a seething, tormented, mind incapable of tolerating those with whom you disagree. That's rather like what you accuse the Israelis of doing.

Cut it out!

John
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
"Doug, try to state you points more clearly to limit the 'chatter' on these threads. "

What ever blue.
If you can not see the point of my crap... you are up to your ears in the real stuff.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
Dec 29, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
"but Israel was established by the world community, given the right to exist"

Which could be read as "land was stolen from other people in order to create the country of Israel..." It's no wonder that it lead to:

"threatened violently by its neighbors (except, of course, Lebanon!), and attacked with illegal deadly force continually."

Most people in the Arab nations see Israel's sheer existence as the *illegal* part of the whole equation and their "deadly force" as simply the only way to remove intruders from their land.

Don't even get me started on what a f*#king joke/farce the U.N. is...
bwancy1

Trad climber
Here
Dec 29, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
Dec 29, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
hahaha
PP

Trad climber
SF,CA
Dec 29, 2008 - 03:19pm PT
one Israeli dead and 300+- Palestinians dead seems like a tragic over reaction; except I heard elections are coming soon and that Israel had this attack planned for quite a while. Israel and Palestine have proven they can't solve the problem Israel needs to back off and have the UN create a buffer zone and an independent state for Palestine that has good water supplies. The United States should demand it and if Israel had any sense they should demand it.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 29, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
Skip wrote,

"That's about all you wacko's on the left need to know.

Except killing lots of people,
Bulldozing homes of innocent people,
Beating up old women ( done by the settlers )
turning off the water supplies,
starving the population.
Sniping kids



Does nothing to stop the rockets.


.................
Blue wrote,

"Hamas was elected in a democratic manner by the people. It is a legit gov't entity that condones mortars and rocket-fire against Israel, sometimes indirectly"

George Bush was elected in a democratic manner by the people. He is the "legit" government entity who condones torture..............

................

My guess is the after Christmas angst has put things out of whack. I hope everyone has a better new Years.

Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 04:04pm PT
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122994140674153.html

The best news source coming out of the region.
WoodySt

Trad climber
Riverside
Dec 29, 2008 - 04:33pm PT
I have an idea. Everyone in the world should give back territory that they or their ancestors ripped off from the previous inhabitants. Then those people should pass on back what they just received to those on back down the line etc. etc. etc. It doesn't matter in the least when it happened; there was an injustice; there were victims, and those terrible injustices should be rectified. Now there's a solution that should satisfy those who believe that Israel has committed a horrible atrocity here. Okay, lets get with it; everyone get packing. This is going to take some time and be somewhat inconvenient, but proper redress is in order. Oh, let's turn this problem over to the UN. They have a history of being quite efficient and fair.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 04:37pm PT
What an absurd out of focus comment Woody quit masturbating all over yourself.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 29, 2008 - 04:40pm PT
Bam-Bam, I don't see myself bashing anybody else's religion. In my heart, they are all my religions.

Wanna know who was a big basher of the Religion he practiced. Jesus himself. It's important to keep people thinking about how we get blind in our actions and it happens in politics and religion and relationships and every other facet of our lives where we're tempted to see others as wrong and limited but not question ourselves.

So I don't feel I'm bashing. I have made a huge study of many religions and so if people make statements are clearly fabricated and not supported by the religions themselves, it only serves the practice of those religions for people to face the truth.

It was the priests and the fundamentalists that Jesus criticized most in his sermons, not the dirtbags and losers.

So it's fair, since there has been so much mudslinging against the Palestinians in this thread, even dating back to WW2, to note a few things, such as Christian and Christian countries have killed WAY WAY more Jews than all of Islam combined over the centuries and that's even if you take Hilter and Germany out of the equation.

I notice the response isn't "mistakes were made by our brothers in the past and we must insure that they don't happen again" but is instead "You are hateful and bashing us. Stop and lets continue insisting that it's OK to collectively punish the Palestinian people because among them are terrorists that just can't accept their land being settled and continually confiscated year after year"

If all that upsets you, it's natural that we can condone things like what Woody is saying, which is basically, Let's do a Hitler routine on the Palestinians and put the survivors on reservations"

I have to say, that thinking seems more deserving of moral condemnation of me just pointing out real facts that nobody seems the least bit prepared to refute.

If I'm telling the truth, shouldn't we look at what might be just instead of choosing one dirty side or another?

Peace

Karl
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Dec 29, 2008 - 04:46pm PT
Phil, reference the post a ways back.
I was speaking old school, talking about your cagoule.sp?


This thread needs some damn drift!!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 29, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
Woody wrote
"I have an idea. Everyone in the world should give back territory that they or their ancestors ripped off from the previous inhabitants. Then those people should pass on back what they just received to those on back down the line etc. etc. etc. It doesn't matter in the least when it happened; there was an injustice; there were victims, and those terrible injustices should be rectified. Now there's a solution that should satisfy those who believe that Israel has committed a horrible atrocity here. Okay, lets get with it; everyone get packing. This is going to take some time and be somewhat inconvenient, but proper redress is in order. Oh, let's turn this problem over to the UN. They have a history of being quite efficient and fair."

BTW, this wasn't the post I referenced in my post above.

problem is Woody, to be civilized humans at long last, we have to put a stop to war as a means of gaining territory. That's why the world rolled back Saddam in Kuwait isn't it?

Or are you prepared to continue to go along with "Might makes Right?"

I'd think twice about it as our economy is starting to suck wind, the Chinese have trillions in the bank, and the Islamic world is destined for big wealth and power as oil will get super expensive as it eventually becomes scarce. With all that in mind, I'd agree with PP that the Israel-Palestine situation would go alot better if Israel would allow UN peacekeeper in and international watchers.

Philo has a point as well. Why won't Israel specify it's borders or constitution? Trust those who have really studied this, it's all a smokescreen to get as much land with as few Palestinians as possible Not all Israelis support this, but they are locked into this political situation with illegal settlers holding too much sway.

Thus, if the Palestinians kept up a truce, as has happened many times, the Israelis find excuses to provoke the situation until something happens and then escalate from there. Sadly, they don't want real peace yet because they need conflict to continue to take land, settle, and push the Palestinians out.

It doesn't have to be that way. The international community could designate borders, enforce compliance with sanctions, and cut the BS on both sides, but the US stands in the way.

Peace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 04:57pm PT
345 Gazans dead and 1450 wounded so far all to retaliate for one killed Israeli. Seems fair and balanced to me. Surely there was no collateral damage either since everyone knows the are all terrorists or worse.
When does the ground offensive start? I'll make smores.


Oh yeah Survival Cagoule I knew that.
Tomcat

Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?

Ya know? This question fails some people, but not most.

Boo-hoo, poor Hamas always gets picked on....(that's coming)
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:13pm PT
I dunno Tomcat, ask the Lebonese, some Hezbollah captured a few Israeli soldiers and Israel invaded, leaving 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets on the ground.

So do we suggest everybody just kill whomever they have the technology to kill so they don't beat us to it?

I'm thinking with a billion Muslims in the world, it's not the best plan.

Like Jesus said, it's not worth it to lose your soul over worldly gain and loss.

peace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:16pm PT
If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?

Ya know? This question fails some people, but not most.

Boo-hoo, poor Hamas always gets picked on....(that's coming)

Ah the return of the prodigal Boo Hoo Bluering. Who has failed the same question.

If someone shoots missiles and bombs into your country killing over 300 and wounding more than a thousand are you going to stop shooting rockets even if they suck?
Tomcat

Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:18pm PT
Guess we'll find out PhiLO.

Two billion Christians Karl.Who do you suppose has better weapons?
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:23pm PT
"If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?

Ya know? This question fails some people, but not most"

If it were all this simple.......EVERYONE could actually understand the situation!
PP

Trad climber
SF,CA
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:28pm PT
Israel is the classic abusive bully (1 dead vs 300 dead). The problem is that the entire world is watching and doing nothing because Israel is enabled by the United States. Maybe the bully is doing one last smashing before Obama starts? Because clearly Bush could care less. He has barely mentioned Israel in his 8 years. Hopefully Obama won't be so negligent especially in behind the scenes negotiations.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:32pm PT
"Two billion Christians Karl.Who do you suppose has better weapons?"

I want to know who has better falafel?

Jews or Muslims?
PP

Trad climber
SF,CA
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:34pm PT
especially if I was an abusive bully with anger management problems
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 05:44pm PT
We get it Skip you can cut and paste. ad nauseam.

You know Skip there is a subtle diplomatic innuendo in Obama's message that you have failed to grasp. It is a message to Israel to stop sending missles into peoples bedrooms as well. While not lost on the Arab and Jewish residence of the area it is a message ungotten by the simple minded and media blinded of Our great nation. Probably why the Nazraelis of the IDF started their assault on Gaza while Shrubie was still in charge.
So go on keep posting it up buddy. The "paleos" appreciate your unintended efforts on their behalf.

Wait till you see how world opinion responds when evidence becomes more widely known that the humanitarian shipments Israel let in shortly before the attack were not just a public relations ploy. But were actually used to track and target the civilians who thronged for much needed supplies in the busiest part of the day.
Sweet great humanitarians! Better get on with the ground assault to eliminate evidence as fast as possible.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 06:08pm PT
If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Palestinians to do the same thing.
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Dec 29, 2008 - 06:09pm PT
"arbitrarily"?

Like the US "arbitrarily" decided the borders of Indian Reservations?
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 29, 2008 - 06:10pm PT
JEleazarian not only refers to having family in the Middle East, but with a name like his - apparently ending in "ian", if that's his real name - his ancestry is likely Armenian. A people that knows only too well what it is like to be stateless and persecuted, particularly after the Turkish genocide during World War I. (Dr. Ed might concur, though he wisely avoids these threads.)

I still don't agree with many of his views, and believe this thread is a waste of electrons. But unlike most of us, JE seems to have a dog in the fight.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 06:11pm PT
By what right does Israel get to "decide the borders of a supposed sovereign nation?

Would that be the "right of might"? Because if "might is right" then Israel is as right as it gets. Right DaftRat?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 06:17pm PT
Since when has DaftRat ever been Right, other than winged?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 07:02pm PT
350+ dead compared to 1 dead. Yup pretty heinous rocket attacks there Skippy.
Find out how much campaign slush money your man got from AIPAC before you quote him as an authority.
scabang

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2008 - 07:21pm PT
They're all in AIPAC's pocket - Pelosi, Boxer, Feingold et al. It's laughable. The only one with any balls (sic) is Kucinich.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 29, 2008 - 07:29pm PT
Thing is Skip, we're not going to give Obama the pass on human rights abuse that Bush got from ya'll for 8 years. Just because he says it doesn't mean we call it good.

I think it's fair to say, looking even outside supertopo, that the holidays are a stressful time of year. Some of it overflows back here where it's safer to let some out

Peace

Karl
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Dec 29, 2008 - 07:34pm PT
skipt=LEB
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 07:42pm PT
"I know what's in the AIPAC checkbook."

Not much after Madeoff!

"AIPAC Board Member"

Jeff, this got you into trouble once already......
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 07:46pm PT
"Asked who was to blame for the dire situation in Gaza, the foreign minister [of Egypt] replied: "Ask the party that controls Gaza." "

Since Israel is the "decider" when it comes to anything getting into or out of Gaza, the controlling party of Gaza is..... drum roll please....... ISRAEL! Go figure?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 29, 2008 - 07:50pm PT
"The only one with any balls (sic) is Kucinich. "

That is ridiculously funny, ROTFLMAO!!11!1!

(yer a fool too!)
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 07:55pm PT
"Not only is Fattrad correct.

The rest of the world will support it.

And that means the U.N. "

Why is it that anytime the UN makes a decision unfavorable to Israel the right wing hawkish crowd lambastes the UN and declares the body irrelevant. But when the UN might help Israel the UN is exhalted to the N'th degree?

Article refuting your statement, skip.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/12/29/world.protests.gaza/

Poll refuting your statement, skip.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/503.php?lb=btis&pnt=503&nid=&id=

And the WORLD/UN does want an immediate end to this crap. The US government does not.
http://www.daily.pk/world/middle-east/8851-us-veto-blocks-un-anti-israel-resolution-.html
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:00pm PT
"Why is it that anytime the UN makes a decision unfavorable to Israel the right wing hawkish crowd lambastes the UN and declares the body irrelevant. But when the UN might help Israel the UN is exhalted to the N'th degree? "

Because when a clearly leftist/pacifist organ like the UN says Hamas is out of line, there's no more disputing who's to blame.

It's obvious to the everyone else, just not to you!
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:05pm PT
"Because when a clearly leftist/pacifist organ like the UN says Hamas is out of line, there's no more disputing who's to blame.

It's obvious to the everyone else, just not to you!"

Been sniffing glue again bluering?
Check the UN again.

And by the way the only way you'll have more balls than Kucinich is if you are at a table of rocky mountain oysters.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:13pm PT
"Been sniffing glue again bluering?
Check the UN again. "

Did you hear the pacifist, Ban Ki Moon, today?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:21pm PT
Hey Riley,

Its simple. Not everything one can do is effective.

Bulldozing innocent peoples homes will not stop the terrorist. It just pisses off the friendlies and makes more terrorists.

Neither will Snipers shooting children.

Shutting off the water to an entire area.

Settlers beating up old women.

Plus many other things Israel has done.

..................

Of course it is within Israel's power to do these things. They already have. But did they work? Nope..


Some folks just don't want to recognize this.

...................


Okay Skip.. you can post what Barack said again.


Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:23pm PT
"An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind."

Mohandas Karamchand ("Mahatma") Gandhi
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:30pm PT
Good one Skippy your desperation has left you nothing but the need to quote Arabs and leftist, liberal, socialist Democrats. You must be so proud of yourself.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:34pm PT
"An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind."

Sorry, but as noble as that sounds, it just doesn't hold water. In fact, it's foolishly naive. This is where all the non-Christian Jesus lovers are wrong. Jesus whould give the dude a chance, but to defend children and civis, he'd probably swing a bat or pull a trigger.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:37pm PT
skipt: "Gandhi was killed by a radial Muslim." "Pretty much self-explanatory."

Mohandas Gandhi was murdered by Nathuram Godse, an extremist who with his accomplices belonged to the far right-wing Hindu Mahasabha, on January 30th, 1948.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathuram_Godse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi#Assassination
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:38pm PT
"Gandhi was killed by a radial Muslim.

-Pretty much self explanatory"

Come on Skipper quit being such a racist tool. We already corrected you on this. Gandhi was killed by a radical Hindu zealot angry about concessions to the Islamist.

Please quit perpetrating lies no matter how conveniently you think they fit your misguided efforts. It only makes you seem ignorant, childish and foolish.

Oh Radical you poor misguided dupe. Did you miss my explanation about the Gazan rockets having about a 5 mile range and about five pounds of explosives? The mexico to US scenario just doesn't wash. Or the part that 2000 rocket attacks only killed one Israeli? And to call the Palestinians, traditionally the most highly and widely educated population in the Arab world, stupid is an affront and a clear indication of your racism and hatred. I pity you.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:56pm PT
Here is a nice touch for all you Arab haters out there who want to say "why don't the Palestinians allow their wounded to get medical help" Well Israeli news agencies are reporting that actually it is the Israelis who won't let wounded Palestinians get to emergency medical care. They are dying waiting for permission. What glorious humanitarians the Israelis are.

Winds are a blowin' the times they are a changin'.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:57pm PT
Or the part that 2000 rocket attacks only killed one Israeli?

They killed three more today.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 29, 2008 - 08:59pm PT
Riley, I usually disagree with you, but damn....you're making my point for me. Nice to see that a good liberal like yourself can still evaluate a situation and make good judgements.

Israel should use as much restraint 'as reasonably possible'. In other words, limit civi damage. That may mean ground invasion.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:06pm PT
Wow TGT 3 more really. That's 100 to 1 great odds if you are the house.

And Blue you are an idiot. A ground invasion means massive civilian casualties. No reasonable restraint there. Only scores more dead non combatants. You know women and children. Gaza is a crowded civilian area.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:12pm PT
Radical have you paid any attention? About the daily violence and brutality perpetrated on the Palestinians by their illegal occupiers. About the lack of other means to resist occupation. Which is their legal right. About anything besides the myths you cling to?

If the Palestinians have survived the brutal onslaught of the IDF time and time again and yet they still fight back and resist. That shouldn't tell you that they are stupid but rather that they have a legitimate cause.

What exactly would you do in their shoes?

And for the record my wife is a Palestinians of a currently and historicaly significant family.
They are also Naqba survivors. Lots of family still over there. So you see I do have a deep interest in this conflict and vast knowledge base about it. OK with you?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:17pm PT
Skippy don't you mean "learn to lie along"?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:20pm PT
I also don't believe that Israel/Palestine has created that many, if any at all terrorists.
Arabs, Persians, Al Qaeda, etc have a well documented history of not giving a sh#t about Palestinians. They have only just recently started using it as a political tool.
I wonder, how much of the billions and billions of dollars of middle eastern oil money do the other Muslim states donates to aid the Palestinians? - Radical


This is another whopper of Zionist propaganda. Learn the truth.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:21pm PT
What an inflammatory thread to appear at the top of a goddamm climbing forum page. Sure, I'm bumping it now, but it's been up here a long while and nothing new is being said, yet the message of the title is just hanging out there, despite the fact that it is a revolting affront to reality.

"Who is it that can make your little armies of the left, and your little armies of the right, light up the sky, tonight?"

Shutting down whoever's supplying those mortar rounds is the only thing that will have any effect, btw.

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:24pm PT
And Radical why didn't you ask Skipt why he is so fired up about this. How many family members does he have in harm's way do you suppose?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:53pm PT
Skip whereas I appreciate the sentiment you have NO idea how I have spent my time. Just for giggles why don't you try and get a phone call through to any of the occupied territories tonight. Don't mind trying Gaza at all.

None of the "Blame" as you call it that I have leveled at Israel is unfounded. It is all well documented and verifiable.

My true concern is for Peace, Justice and liberty for everyone on both sides of the conflict. NO MORE KILLING!
I hope that is clear.
WoodySt

Trad climber
Riverside
Dec 29, 2008 - 09:55pm PT
The Palestinians voted Hamas in. The Palestinian majority approve the policies of Hamas. The Palestinians approve of martyrdom for their cause, including raising their children to be terrorists. It seems reasonable for Israel to plow through and martyr as many as possible.

Philo, spare me the whining about civilian casualties. They support Hamas so they should be happy to become martyrs for the cause. Keep martyring them until they decide they've had enough and choke on their martyring. Lots of Palestinians are raising their children to be martyrs. Okay. Why complain when it happens. Oh, I see; it's too early. They haven't had the opportunity to blow up an Israeli restaurant or school yet. What the hell, they just get to go to Allah a little early. Too bad about the little boys, though. Now, what the devil will those little guys be able to do with forty virgins? On the other hand, the little girls will meet up with Mohammad and all the bearded old boys. And, they know what to do with little girls. But, once the old guys train the little girls, the little girls can take care of the little boys. So, we now have a lot of happy little Martyrs in Muslim heaven doing a different kind of banging.
WBraun

climber
Dec 29, 2008 - 10:09pm PT
Two completely different contrasting posts above.

Riley from the heart and Woody so dry and heartless.

Woody that's just plain mean.
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Dec 29, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
being nice wont solve problems with militant terrorist groups. no one like meanies, and few people aspire to meanness, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 10:17pm PT
Woody how pathetically droll and insensitive can you be.

You see Skip (et al) I cannot sit back while some of you debase and denigrate the Palestinians and condemn them to the illegal act of collective punishment. Or worse call for their wholesale slaughter without the slightest shread of an attempt to wonder why they fight back. To do anything less would be tantamount to abandoning and betraying my family. Which by the way includes many Jewish members.


And thank you Riley much appreciated.
And yes I have a great many family members there. Most of them are Christian Arabs and not one of them is a terrorist.



So for the rest of you who don't like what I post on these politically charged thread climbing stories.
Here this will make it easy.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=747131

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=730016
Mugley

Trad climber
Newark, N.J.
Dec 29, 2008 - 10:40pm PT
Hey, among all this carnage----let's not forget our real enemies !

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 29, 2008 - 10:57pm PT
I have a modest proposal for ending this discussion. It seems that certain posters insist on having the last word. Neither side will convince the other, so . . .

Let me have the last word: It's time to move on. Or, to use the words of Bullwinkle Moose, "If this train goes by this station one more time, I'd like to get off."

John
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 29, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
OK john step off the train if you need to but the slaughter is on going and the ground assault is about to begin, Do you honestly expect me to stay quiet?


Besides I have done everything to get folks to read my climbing threads but apparently this stuff is more interesting.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 30, 2008 - 12:03am PT
"Who threw the first punch in this this time?? "

It's been said, and I think it's true, that who is 'wrong' in the Israeli Palestinian conflict depends on when you start the clock.

In the Bible, God promises this land to the descendants of Abraham but, then again, the Palestinians claim to descend from Abraham's first born,Ishmael. It's a family squabble from thousands of years ago.

It wasn't nice the first time. When the Jews invaded the promised land in Biblical times, they took the land and killed every man, woman and Child in most every village because they said God told them to do it. It's a claim that hard to get the police to believe these days.

Even when we go back to 1948, it's just a matter of weeks or months to determine who was aggressor? Just remember, Israel wasn't formed by international degree or put within internationally proposed borders. That was in the works but Israel declared it's own independence before an agreement was made. Of course the neighbors objected.

What to do? I think internationally brokered borders and peacekeepers need to be crammed down the throats of both sides.

Peace

Karl


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 30, 2008 - 12:14am PT
"What to do? I think internationally brokered borders and peacekeepers need to be crammed down the throats of both sides. "

So who determines 'official' borders then? History? Isn't that the crux of the problem here?


Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Dec 30, 2008 - 12:49am PT
these pretzels...ARE MAKIN' ME THIRSTY!!!
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 01:01am PT
This is NOT an attack on Hamas for the defense of Israel. This is an atrocity of genocidal slaughter of trapped and helpless civilians. Gaza is the most densely populated land on Earth. They have attacked clinics, hospitals and the university of 18,000 students over 60% of them young women. In fact the IDF made a point of firing multiple rockets into the women's dormitory of the University. Who exactly is Israel defending themselves against? Millions of starving refugees?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 30, 2008 - 01:20am PT
Breathe Philo. A brother is offering you the hand of friendship. Accept it. Let the peace of that friendship flow over you. This is the same healing energy that needs to flow over the middle east. You have told us that it is flowing in some parts of Palistine and Israel. Prayerfully, my hope is that this will grow and spread over all of the region.

I hold you and your family and all those in the middle east in my Prayers.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
Dec 30, 2008 - 01:21am PT
I have been studying the Volcano that is Yellowstone for many years. Obama is going to have to come up with a solution to the problem of the moving magma or we are all dead. Everyone, exept us Jews. Yes I have 25 percent jew blood.



Juan
WoodySt

Trad climber
Riverside
Dec 30, 2008 - 03:26am PT
Obama will save us.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 30, 2008 - 09:24am PT
"An eye for an eye never solves anything."

Unless your goal is constant chaos, which it appears both Hammas and Israel want.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 30, 2008 - 11:36am PT
"Thank you for finally agreeing with me that it is a "Clash of Civilizations"

I think you use the word "Civilization" loosely.

Also funny, Israel continually denied that the wall would be the final border and even it's own supreme court (to its credit) ruled it's path unjust

peace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
No DaftRat you are once again wrong. You should be used to that by now. We are not all in agreement with you. In fact remarkably few STers are. This "CofC" that you crave
is only such because you and AIPAC and the Zionists want to proclaim it as such. This current conflict does NOT go back "thousands of years" Unless you are specifically referring to Jewish historical penchant for taking by brutality of force that which is NOT theirs. If that is the case then I am all with you. The only ones "Clashing" with "Civilization" are the Israelis. They have thrown international law into the dustbin and are engaging in the war crime of a slow but steady genocide of the Palestinians. They have abandoned their morality and humanity. Continuing on this path will only bring about the end of the State of Israel. Not from imagined external threats but internally by the rapid degeneration of blackened hearts and corrupted minds. This will bring about the self inflicted and all too avoidable end of a Jewish only homeland.

My wife just talked last night to one of her best friends. She is a wonderfully loving 90+ year old Jewish gentle woman who Loves my Quaker Palestinian wife like a daughter. She is the soul family survivor of the Holocaust. Her family fought and died in the Warsaw ghetto uprising. Do you care to know what she has to say about this crisis? She is heartbroken! She is ashamed! She is appalled! She is disgusted. She refuses to accept that Israel is in any way acting on her behalf, in her name or in her defense.
She thinks the radical fundamentalists of Israeli Zionism need a proper spanking by their mommas. The need to go back to Synagogue and plead for forgiveness. She is
lividly angry!

Care to argue with her Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody? Any of you arm chair heros want to compare the vastness of your experiences and travails with hers then tell her she is wrong?

Because I offer that it is best not to argue with me today.How many family members did you lose in the last few day Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody? Spare me your pompous self righteous racism will you please. My wife is on the verge of catatonia having seen news footage from Gaza last night. It started with footage of a 18 month Palestinian child who was barely alive having had her face blown off by one of those "surgical" strikes the IDF is so proud of. That was exceptionally hard to see. But what really devastated her was the site of a wholly leveled apartment building in the background. It seems the baby was salvaged from the wreckage. But you see that same building was home to friends and family. Innocent friends and family who never did you or anyone you know the slightest harm. They may have gotten out but there was NO warning. They were told to expect a "lull" to provide for safe shopping before the siege. There was NO lull. The IDF struck at the busiest parts of the city at the busiest part of the day. So much for limiting civilian casualties. The Palestinians were trapped and hunted like Bison in a pen.
Problem for my wife is that NO one can get a call in or out to check on loved ones. She is utterly in the dark. She fears that tragic child is her friend's baby.

But all you testosterone overdosed war mongers and Arab haters will probably rest assured that if any of my wife's friends or family were murdered they probably deserved it. You probably think they were shielding Hamas terrorists from the F-16s and Apache gun ships with their apron strings.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 30, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
Oh Mercy.

Philo, I am so sorry. I hope that it turns out that your friends and family are okay and I hope that some day both sides can learn to live in peace.

John
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
Thank You John! Very much. I want the same thing.
But right now I'd settle with getting my wife to stop crying.

And Riley we are totally cool, no kick in the nuts necessary. I am just very heartened that you understood. You are a good man. Thank you for your words.

Most sincerely Phil Broscovak


For the few of you on the extreme right of reason...
You see I am agonizing here. In face of the scale of this brutality (the bloodiest since 1948) I just can't tolerate the few STers who constantly act like a cheering section, urging more killing, more destruction and suggesting the Israelis "wipe em out!"
Particularly when this same thoughtless souls unequivocally defend any action by Israel regardless of how repugnant, illegal or morally bankrupt those actions turn out to be.

Go ahead tell me I am wrong, tell me I am stupid, tell me I am an apologist for savage blood thirsty terrorists. Go ahead, then go have a heartless to heart with your God.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Dec 30, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
Nobody wants to see innocent people die, but there isn't a country in the world that would defend itself in the manner that Israel is doing if faced with a similar threat.

Gaza is ruled by Hamas and the people of Gaza support Hamas. Hamas is dedicated to the annihilation of Israel. If they had their way not a single Jew would be left alive in Israel/Palestine.

Innocent people died in Nazi Germany also, and some of their family, especially those who supported Hitler and his policies, blamed FDR and Churchill.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 30, 2008 - 01:34pm PT
This is interesting Jeff.
Why are the Saudis complaining about the influence of Iran in the region?
Are they just bitching for show?
Chaz

Trad climber
Boss Angeles
Dec 30, 2008 - 01:41pm PT
Philo writes:

"Care to argue with her Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody?"

---- and


"How many family members did you lose in the last few day Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody?"

You're not dragging ME into this! (you'll notice this is my first post on this thread)

As long as people from Palestine, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Iraq all get along fine in Los Angeles (and they DO, because they're not stupid enough to try and fight their idiot ansesterial old-country quarrels here), then I don't give a damn what they do over there in their little shithole.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
Jeff, NO i don't believe you do understand. There is so much you don't understand.
The Palestinian Authority and the large majority of Palestinians have already conceded Israel's right to exist. They have done so repeatedly and unequivocally in front of the world. And they have avowed such for a long time now to NO avail. But you all fail to mention this in your Arab bashing hatred. You like the Israelis keep changing the criteria for "PEACE' and statehood. No matter how much the Palestinians agree to how little they get or how well they comply with Israeli demands they rules keep changing on them. How many variations to what is required of the Palestinians have you yourself posted? The Israelis won't give peace a chance because they have absolutely no honest intention to allow for the Palestinians what they themselves demand, Statehood. Please for once be honest and acknowledge that the long term game plan is to eliminate all Arabs from the land as quickly as world opinion will allow.No one will drive Israel into the sea but themselves and God!
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 30, 2008 - 01:45pm PT
LOL!
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
Read international reports Jeff. The truth is it's the Israelis who won't let wounded Palestinian civilians out of the prison that is Gaza. Nor will the Egyptians, who claim they won't open the gates till Hamas concedes power. The Israelis have tried to make it sound that the Gazans are massing to escape. The reports from Gaza say NO one is trying to escape they are just pleading for food and medicine. You know, prior to the attack by Israel, the on going total blockade of Gaza by the Israelis has killed many more civilians than all the rockets fire out of Gaza. Even just the Israeli refusal to allow Insulin to be delivered has killed more Palestinian civilians than all that rocket fire combined.
Now before Big Jeff tries to say "but look the Israelis let in almost 100 truck loads of humanitarian supplies aren't they wonderful?" Remember that was the first aid allowed in for months. And it was delivered just hours before the attacks began. The shipments were destroyed in the attacks along with the masses of innocent civilians who had gathered desperate for food, water and medicine. The IDF better get in there with tanks and bull dozers right away to destroy evidence of their war crimes before any one recovers the GPS tracking units stashed among those
"humanitarian supplies! Kind of like the US Cavalry giving tuberculosis laden blankets to the Sioux before attacking them that winter.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
"The Palestinian Authority and the large majority of Palestinians have already conceded Israel's right to exist. They have done so repeatedly and unequivocally in front of the world."

The PA has done this, but not Hamas. Hamas went to war against the PA over this. Hamas has repeatedly and unequivocally called for the annihilation of Israel.

The war in Gaza is against Hamas, not the PA.
Chaz

Trad climber
Boss Angeles
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
Palestinian Gaza should find other trading partners besides Israel.

What's Egypt do for stuff like insulin?

Perhaps a stockpile of insulin should have established before launching rockets?

Or, better yet, simply spend the rocket-money on insulin.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
"Palestinian Gaza should find other trading partners besides Israel. "

Tough to do when Israel has a blockade on all of your borders.
Egypt will do nothing so it does not put into jeopardy the treaty it has with Israel regarding the Sinai and especially the border with gaza.
Chaz

Trad climber
Boss Angeles
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:18pm PT
How does Israel blockade the Egypt-Gaza border?

Rocket parts and explosives have no problem running this blockade. Shows where Palestinian priorities are.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:21pm PT
Sorry about that.
Did not finish a thought and then picked up on another sentence. Good catch!
Chaz

Trad climber
Boss Angeles
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
I don't really care if the Big Cockroach kills the Little Cockroach, or if they just fight it out for another 60 years.

But some things just don't make sense, like a shortage of insulin in Gaza but no shortage of rockets.

Curious really.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:30pm PT
Chaz,

I can, from the stuff in my print shop, build a rocket that could easily hit downtown Reno from where I'm at, about 5 miles away. And that is without metal parts!

Now Isolating Insulin would be a challenge.....
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
Chaz you are wrong! Nothing gets into Gaza UNLESS Israel approves it. Which is why more than a million people don't even have BREAD! The "terrorist" tunnels that Israel is so hot on destroying are mostly used to get in what little food and medicine there is. Yes of course weapons also follow the same route. But regarding these uber sophisticated rockets you all are so up in arms about I can go into my garage and produce virtually the same weapon with materials and supplies from my business.
And like those world class weapons systems it wouldn't even reach my kids high school. And it would have less explosive force or destructive capacity than an average hand grenade. I could build it in a couple of hours. You know the American military was thoroughly befuddled by the Vietnamese capacity to create endlessly evolving home made explosives. They made these with anything they could find including unexploded US ordinance. We bombed them into the stone age and they kept coming back more determined than ever.

If you really think the Palestinian priority is murdering Jews and that they would rather spend what little money they have on rockets rather than feeding their children then you are not only sadly misled but sick as well.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:41pm PT
Plus you can't store insulin for years and years. Isn't it only good for a few months?
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:43pm PT
John,

Good point.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
Those horrible Gazan rockets don't have the same explosive power of the hundreds of thousands of illegal and unexploded cluster bomblets left behind by Israel on their Ill fated invasion of Lebanon. Ask the hundreds of kids who have been maimed or crippled for life because the stumbled upon these inhumane evils. You cant ask the dozens of dead children though their parents may have a few words to share.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 30, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
" left behind by Israel on their Ill fated invasion of Lebanon"

Why did Israel invade Lebanon in 2006? Ill-fated, would you prefer a more 'successful' invasion next time?
Chaz

Trad climber
Boss Angeles
Dec 30, 2008 - 03:34pm PT
So what was the point behind Hamas firing a bunch of rockets at Israel again?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 30, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
"Those horrible Gazan rockets don't have the same explosive power of the hundreds of thousands of illegal and unexploded cluster bomblets left behind by Israel "

Tell that to the 6 people killed in Israel during this short conflict. Not to mention those injured by the harmless toy rockets...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081229/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazaisraeltoll
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
Wow Blue six whole people. That's such a holocaust! So you have been ignoring the news out of Gaza because so many Jews are suffering is that it.


Israel invaded Lebanon, killed and maimed untold numbers of innocent civilians destroyed tens of millions of dollars worth of infrastructure and got their own noses bloodied beyond their wildest fears. Why? Because in response to regular Israeli targeted assassinations and kidnappings, two IDF soldiers were taken captive. Two Soldiers! Was it worth it? Did they ever get their soldiers back?
In their arrogance the IDF believed they were infallible and undefeatable. When their poorly thought out and executed campaign ground to a stand off they realized the could lose this one. So they beat a hasty retreat leaving tons of illegal bomblets as child killing landmines behind. The IDF was and is embarrassed that all their vaunted power couldn't subdue a rag tag bunch of rag heads in the desert. Now the rest of the world knows that Israeli might is not omnipotent. The Israelis can be defeated and they know it adding to their desperation to appear victorious in Gaza no mater what the cost. Too bad they were not forced to pay reparations to Lebanon. Then they might understand how much "at any cost" costs. But they got off with out any recriminations. Why? US veto power in the UN! We will pay for them to do what ever they want regardless of how horrendous the outcome. Why? Why should we pay for Israeli war crimes when we can barely afford to pay for our own?
Is the cost/benefit analysis of our unilateral commitment to Israel really that wonderfully beneficial to us that we can cast away our moral obligation to the rest of the world?
Chaz

Trad climber
Boss Angeles
Dec 30, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
See what kind of *change* Obama brings.

I'm betting zero.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 30, 2008 - 04:27pm PT
Philo, you keep telling us how harmless these 'toy rockets' are and that the Israeli respone to barrages of rockets is unjustified. Bullshit! Once again you show yourself to be a lying propagandist.

The rockets DO kill and they DO harm people.

Israel has a duty to respond to those people launching the rockets, it's the primary function of gov't...protecting it's citizens from attack.

Hizbullah started the Lebanese conflict and you damn well know this. They killed 6 border patrol guards and the 2 they kidnapped I believe were just recently returned to Israel IN COFFINS, during a 'prisoner exchange'.

Stop perpetuating your lies. Some people see through your BS.

Oh, and if Israel is such a well known aggressor and a murderous bully, why would Hamas fire fockets into Israel and give Israel an excuse to re-invade Gaza?

Didn't Israel just evacuate Gaza and tear it's own citizens from their settlements to give back an 'occupied' area? Geez, maybe the Israelis should re-occupy it. They had fewer rocket attacks then.

The militant Palestinian is a dying breed. They are too stupid to survive, I'm sorry to say. They keep pushing Israel to go back and re-occupy everything they've given up. How smart is that?

Here's the start os the Lebanon conflict...(this is after Israel PULLED OUT of Gaza and OUT of Southern Lebanon)

2006 July 12: Hizbullah launches its Operation Truthful Promise, in which rockets were sent from areas in southern Lebanon under their control, into Israel. Hizbullah soldiers kidnaps two Israeli soldiers and kills another 3, all being part of a routine patrol along the border. Five more soldiers were killed by a land mine, when trying to rescue the two abducted soldiers. Hizbullah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, stated that the only way of returning the two kidnapped soldiers, was through a prison exchange.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 30, 2008 - 04:40pm PT
See, Israeli's love to kill innocent civilians!!!!!

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24855309-2,00.html
WBraun

climber
Dec 30, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
So when are you sniveling beanie hats that want to save the Mideast going over there to fix it?

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 05:11pm PT
So Blue, you know why I am passionately concerned but why are you so wrapped up in this conflict? What is your stake in this humanitarian crisis?



By the way the faceless infant apparently died. No word yet on the mother.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 30, 2008 - 05:15pm PT
Werner and Philo, I have no desire to go back to Israel, been there once. From what I saw most of Egypt, Israel, and Turkey are shitholes. I'm good here.

Since when do I have to immerse my hand in sh#t to comment on the offensivness of it?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 05:29pm PT
So Skipt you still are incapable of answering the simplest of questions. If it is all such a sh#t hole why do you care so much?






Since when do I have to immerse my hand in sh#t to comment on the offensivness of it?

Dude you are in much more than wrist deep. How's it smell?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 30, 2008 - 05:34pm PT
you think you're really clever, don't ya, Philo?
Chaz

Trad climber
Boss Angeles
Dec 30, 2008 - 05:37pm PT
Question for Philo:

Why drag that insane conflict HERE?

What are we going to do about it?

How 'bout we leave Old Country beefs back in the Old Country?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 05:41pm PT
So the pleasure craft "Dignity" caring crucially needed medical supplies to the humanitarian crisis that is Gaza barely made it back to the port of Tyre in Lebanon. The relief ship was rammed three times by Israeli war ships IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS. The intent was much the same as their attack on the USS Liberty. They wanted to sink these boats. These are unprovoked acts of war. How do you apologists for Israel justify this act. How will you claim the right of self defense given it occurred to a non armed pleasure craft on a International humanitarian mission in International waters?

In your minds does Israel ever do wrong?


I NEVER said the Gazan rockets were harmless. It's just that compared to the military might and materiel of the IDF these rockets are pretty tame and mostly futile.
How many of these rockets landing in the same place at the same time would it take to equal the destruction of just one 1 ton israeli bomb dropped from the safety of an F-16?


And Chaz I am sorry you missed my post that explained that my wife is Palestinian and has family and friends under fire in the war zone. So yeah it is a little sensitive and personal to me. Do you have a problem with that? Do you want to turn my wife in to Homeland Security or the Mossad as a Terrorist sympathizer? Seems like something you guys would enjoy doing.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 30, 2008 - 05:46pm PT
What would you expect military vessels to do in a naval blockade?

Duh? They're lucky they didn't get fired upon and sunk!



"In your minds does Israel ever do wrong?"

Yeah, of course...sometimes. It's human nature, especially in armed conflict.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
Skip you are right I meant it for Bluering. Sorry but it is easy to get you all confused. You Know once you read one right wing radical you've read them all. Anyway sorry and f*#k you too!
Chaz

Trad climber
Boss Angeles
Dec 30, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
Maybe Philo missed my earlier point.

People from Palestine, Israel, and everywhere else in the world get along just fine in Los Angeles.

Why drag ANY conflict over here? We don't need it.

America's a nation of immigrants; We ALL have family in foreign countries who are / were in conflict. That's no reason to continue the conflicts over here.



philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 06:09pm PT
Boo hoo Blew, what did you miss? The part about International Waters or the part about medicine? This isn't the US blockading Cuba to prevent further deployment of nuclear missiles. This a shipment of aid to a starving and dying people. This is not war time this is a unilateral attack and probable invasion. And you are popping up the corn to revel in the "deserved" carnage.

You know some of the finest pediatricians in the world and right here in the good ol US of A are refugee Palestinians. I prey that your child never gets deathly ill and you have to face one of these evil terrorist doctors in an emergency. Oh the horrors of moral dilemma!
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 06:13pm PT
Of course they have.
Of course she does.
Anyone else you want murdered Jeff?
Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 30, 2008 - 06:13pm PT
Cynthia McKinney, is a complete embarrassment.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 30, 2008 - 06:13pm PT
"I prey that your child never gets deathly ill and you have to face one of these evil terrorist doctors in an emergency. Oh the horrors of moral dilemma! "

Actually my boy, John, was circumcisezed by a muslim female doctor. Pretty good job too!

Who the f*#k said anything bad about Paleo civis? You're getting all confused. I got no problem with them. Liberalism is sometimes a dangerous mental disorder.

Relax.


EDIT: "Cynthia McKinney, is a complete embarrassment"

I agree with you there, Chris.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 06:26pm PT
It is the "paleo-civies" who are starving and dying under occupation.
It is the "paleo-civies" who are being mass murdered in these attacks.
Or have you convinced yourself that only enemies in uniform are dying?

Who is confused?


And again the use of "Paleo" to infer the Palestinian people is demeaning, debasing and dehumanizing. It is an effort to minimize the humanity of the Palestinians and make it easier to accept their slaughter. Kikes, wops, spics, krauts, japs. What's the difference when your demonizing a part of humanity you intend to see eliminated?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 30, 2008 - 07:03pm PT
Alright, Paleo isn't a nice term, I'll stop.

In you last post you, as usual, you are way exagerrating. Mass murder, mass starvation, all at the hands of Israelis?

Nice try. You know, just because you say something that is shocking, doesn't mean everyone is going to buy it. You do a disservice to your arguement by making such absurd points.

I'm done her, for now, until you make other exagerrated or untrue statements.

(plus my wife has a Black Angus gift certificate and it's almost chow time)
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 07:12pm PT
Alright, Paleo isn't a nice term, I'll stop.
Thank You.

In you last post you, as usual, you are way exagerrating. Mass murder, mass starvation, all at the hands of Israelis?
No I am not exaggerating. How many non combatant civilian deaths does it take before you call it murder? How many more before you call it mass murder?
I know that when it comes to the deaths of Israelis you think six is enough to accuse the Palestinians of Mass Murder. So how many hundreds of dead Palestinians will it take???

Nice try. You know, just because you say something that is shocking, doesn't mean everyone is going to buy it.
Just like when you all keep repeating deliberate misinformation?

I'm done her, for now, until you make other exagerrated or untrue statements.
Cool!
(plus my wife has a Black Angus gift certificate and it's almost chow time)
Seriously have a nice evening dining with the wife.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 07:13pm PT
DaftRat show me one post where I write "evil Israelis". Just one!
Don't lie about what I say like you do about what Israel does.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 08:20pm PT
I'm done her, for now, until you make other exagerrated or untrue statements.


Well I guess I passed his test.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 30, 2008 - 09:11pm PT
Beginning of clip,

oops! sorry neighbors. We didn't think if we buried a few tons of explosives under your houses that that might happen.




end of clip,

Must have been some powerfull fava beans growing in that greenhouse.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p--x0NCdJH4&feature=channel_page


philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 30, 2008 - 10:10pm PT
Oh spare me the ludicrousness of Your "surgical" strikes. There isn't any proof available to indicate hitting a weapons cache. Just Israeli say so. I can still remember Colin Powell standing in front of the world asserting with out doubt that the satellite pictures showed Iraqi mobile chemical weapons plants. I also remember it didn't turn out to be true. Did it? If you insist all Israeli strikes are surgically accurate then the recent missile strikes on Hospitals and the University, including the women's dorm, were deliberate.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 10:09am PT
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051290.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D301208/248iranAP.jpgLast update - 20:58 30/12/2008

Iran Jews stage pro-Palestinian rally near UN offices in Tehran

By Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondent

Tags: Gaza, Hamas, Israel News

Members of Iran's small Jewish community staged a demonstration outside of the United Nations' office in Tehran, to protest the Israel Defense Forces' operation in the Gaza Strip. The official Iranian news agency, IRNA, reported that community members, alongside Jewish parliamentarian Siamak Mara-Sedq, urged Israel to do its part to return quiet and security to the region.

The chairman of Iran's Jewish Union, Rahmatullah Raafi, said the community had come out in support of the Palestinian people.

"We are here to express out support and sympathy for the Palestinian nation," he said, adding that Muslim nations could rise up as a single large force against Israel. He also said that the victors of the current conflict were the residents of Gaza.

Israeli sources familiar with the Iranian Jewish community suspect that the demonstration was organized by the government in Tehran, and does not represent that actual stance of Iranian Jews.

Some 25,000 Jews still live in Iran. Many have visited Israel, where a large percentage of the community has immigrated in the past 30 years. Still, others prefer to remain in Iran. There are rarely reports of the community suffering from antagonism or aggression from their neighbors or from the government.




Yeah Iran must be a terrible place to allow Jews unfettered lives where they can travel to Israel and back, where that can gather in a large group to protest. Protest what? The horrific actions of the Israeli government.
So should we turn this traitorous bastard s into the Mossad? Or just kill them as terrorist sympathizers?
Imagine that Jews living in a supposedly tyrannical anti Jewish state protesting against Israel. What is the world comming to.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 10:33am PT
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051317.html
Last update - 13:24 31/12/2008

GIDEON LEVY / The IAF, bullies of the clear blue skies

By Gideon Levy

Tags: Gaza, Israel News, Hamas

Our finest young men are attacking Gaza now. Good boys from good homes are doing bad things. Most of them are eloquent, impressive, self-confident, often even highly principled in their own eyes, and on Black Saturday dozens of them set out to bomb some of the targets in our "target bank" for the Gaza Strip.

They set out to bomb the graduation ceremony for young police officers who had found that rare Gaza commodity, a job, massacring them by the dozen. They bombed a mosque, killing five sisters of the Balousha family, the youngest of whom was 4. They bombed a police station, hitting a doctor nearby; she lies in a vegetative state in Shifa Hospital, which is bursting with wounded and dead. They bombed a university that we in Israel call the Palestinian Rafael, the equivalent of Israel's weapons developer, and destroyed student dormitories. They dropped hundreds of bombs out of blue skies free of all resistance.


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In four days they killed 375 people. They did not, and could not, distinguish between a Hamas official and his children, between a traffic cop and a Qassam launch operator, between a weapons cache and a health clinic, between the first and second floors of a densely populated apartment building with dozens of children inside. According to reports, about half of the people killed were innocent civilians. We're not complaining about the pilots' accuracy, it cannot be otherwise when the weapon is a plane and the objective is a tiny, crowded strip of land. Our excellent pilots are effectively bullies now. As in training flights, they bomb undisturbed, facing neither an air force nor defense system.

It is hard to judge what they are thinking, how they feel. It's unlikely to be relevant, anyway. They are measured by their actions. In any event, from an altitude of thousands of feet the picture looks as sterile as a Rorschach inkblot. Lock onto the target, press the button and then a black column of smoke. Another "successful hit." None see the effects on the ground of their actions. Their heads must surely be filled with Gaza horror stories - they themselves have never been there - as if there aren't a million and a half people living there who only want to live with a minimum of honor, some of them young like themselves, with dreams of studying, working, raising a family but who have no chance to fulfill their dreams with or without the bombing.

Do the pilots think about them, the children of refugees whose parents and grandparents have already been driven from their lives? Do they think about the thousands of people they have left permanently disabled in a place without a single hospital worthy of the name and no rehabilitation centers at all? Do they think about the burning hatred they are planting not only in Gaza but in other corners of the world amid the horrific images on television?

It was not the pilots who decided to go to war, but they are the subcontractors. The real accounting must be with the decision makers, but the pilots are their partners. When they return home they will be welcomed with all the respect and honor we reserve for them. It appears that not only will no one try to provoke moral questioning among them, but that they are considered the real heroes of this cursed war. The Israel Defense Forces spokesman is already going over the top with praise in his daily briefings for the "wonderful work" they are doing. He too, of course, completely ignores the images from Gaza. After all, these are not sadistic Border Police officers beating up Arabs in the alleys of Nablus and the center of Hebron, or cruel undercover soldiers who shoot their targets point-blank in cold blood. These, as we have said, are our finest young men.

Maybe if they were to confront the results of their "wonderful work" even once they would regret their decisions, they would reconsider the effects of their actions. If they were to go just once to Jerusalem's Alyn Hospital Pediatric and Adolescent Rehabilitation Center, where for nearly three years Marya Aman, 7, has been hospitalized - she is a quadriplegic who runs her wheelchair, and her life, with her chin - they would be shocked. This adorable little girl was hit by a missile in Gaza that killed almost her entire family, the handiwork of our pilots.

But all of this is well hidden from the pilots' eyes. They are only doing their job, as the saying goes, only following orders like bombing machines. In the past few days they have excelled at this, and the results are there for the entire world to see. Gaza is licking its wounds, just like Lebanon before it, and almost no one pauses for a moment to ask whether all this is necessary, or unavoidable, or whether it contributes to Israel's security and moral image. Is it really the case that our pilots return safely to base, or are they in fact returning to them as callous, cruel and blind people?


Ho Man a Jew bashing Jews! What is the world coming to? Better get Fatty's friends to find and hunt down this terrorist sympathizer. Quick before this traitorous peace movement grows.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 11:00am PT
Well Skipper you certainly deserved the Bush administration. And by your reasoning YOU are as guilty of their war crimes and atrocities as the Bush administration is. You voted for the terrorist fool thus you are guilty too. Pack your bags for a trip to the Hague big boy.
WoodySt

Trad climber
Riverside
Dec 31, 2008 - 11:06am PT
It seem the PLO or whatever name it goes by now is feeding info to the Israelis on where to hit Hamas. Just a bunch of career criminals leading the Paleos.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 31, 2008 - 11:15am PT
one question: what would a "proportionate response" be?

see, this is the kind of vague rhetoric that liberals use when they have no answers...like in the buildup to the iraq war: "we need to try diplomacy a little longer" but nobody would ever say exactly how long

What Would a Proportionate Response Look Like?
Michael J. Totten - 12.30.2008 - 11:19 PM

“If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it, and I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.” – President-elect Barack Obama

Now that Hamas’s long war against Israel is matched with a short war in Gaza, protests are erupting everywhere from the blogosphere and Arab capitals to the United Nations, and they began on the very first day. Salon.com blogger Glenn Greenwald calls the Israeli retaliation to more than a year of rocket attacks a “massively disproportionate response.” UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay “strongly condemned Israel’s disproportionate use of force.” The Israeli counterattack is, indeed, disproportionate, but it could hardly be otherwise. “At last count,” J.G. Thayer wrote, “one Israeli and two Palestinians (sisters, ages 13 and 5) died from rocket attacks. So a proportionate response, one presumes, would have required Israel to kill a single Palestinian and two of its own citizens.”

There were, I suppose, other “proportionate” responses available aside from killing one Palestinian and two Israelis. The Israel Defense Forces might have launched thousands of air strikes against targets in Gaza to match the thousands of Qassam rockets fired at the cities of Sderot and Ashkelon. It’s unlikely, however, that this is what Israel’s critics have in mind.

So what do they have in mind? What would a legitimate and “proportionate” response actually look like? Surely they don’t believe Israel should scrap its sophisticated weapons systems, build Qassam rockets, and launch those at Gaza instead.

The “disproportionate response” crowd doesn’t seem to mind that Israel struck back at Hamas per se. They aren’t saying Israel should only be allowed to negotiate with its enemies or that any use of force whatsoever is wrong. They’re clearly saying Israel should use less force, inflict less damage, or both.

One problem here is that it’s not at all clear how they think Israelis should go about doing it. The weapons used by each side can’t be the same. No one has ever said Israel ought to put its superior weapons systems in cold storage until Hamas can develop or purchase something similar. Presumably Israel is allowed to use its superior technology as long as the casualty count on each side is proportionate.

But how would that work in practice? A single Israeli air strike is going to kill at least as many people as Hamas can kill in twelve months. Does that mean Israel should be given a “license” of one air strike per year to use in the war? If IDF commanders want to take out a target where they expect five Hamas leaders or fighters to be killed, do they have to wait until five Israelis are killed first? If the Israelis endure rocket fire until one civilian is killed, do they get a “kill one Palestinian terrorist” coupon?

If strict proportionality isn’t necessary, what are the limits? If the Israelis kill two Palestinians for every Israeli that’s killed, is that okay? Or is doubling the number of casualties on each side too unfair to the Palestinians?

No army in the history of human civilization has ever hamstrung itself with these kind of restrictions in wartime, but let’s leave that aside for the moment and assume the IDF should be the first. Maybe Israeli commanders will be swayed by the legion of bloggers, Arab street radicals, and United Nations apparatchiks. What, precisely, should be the limits and rules of proportionate war? If critics expect to be taken seriously, they will need to advise.

happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Dec 31, 2008 - 11:18am PT
"You get the government you deserve."

This has got to be on the top of my "Stupidest Statements of 2008" List, if I had such a list. Certainly, it's toppled "Why Do You Hate America?"(serious version, not sarcastic/cynical version).


Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 31, 2008 - 11:19am PT
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/20081231102828289344.html

Iran urges Arabs to act on Gaza
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Dec 31, 2008 - 11:25am PT
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 11:47am PT
Beautiful pic Survival.
Makes me think of the recent Everest Peace Project.
Israelis and Palestinians climbing together in the highest crucible of truth on the planet.

They became greta friends.

Sadly the Israelis, former IDF soldiers were black listed and censured when they went home for fraternizing with the enemy.
Go figure. Anyway thanx for keepin' it real!
Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 31, 2008 - 11:48am PT

Can't we all just get along.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 11:50am PT
Apparently knot.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 31, 2008 - 11:58am PT
Who is who?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 11:58am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1UEjgXfYdw


Please take the time to watch this seven minute power point presentation.
Hard to refute the intentions of Israeli and Zionist towards the Arabs when you can read their exact words for yourself.


Given the fury created by the OP I particularly appreciate the comment by Albert Einstein (you know that Jewish American egg head relativist. He clearly equates the policies and methodologies of the Herut political party with the Nazis.

I didn't say it ALBERT EINSTEIN did. So go kick him in the balls if you can't handle the truth.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 31, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
Meanwhile Hamas wanted to make sure the Christians weren't feeling left out..

Both Iran and its Hamas proxy in Gaza have been busy this Christmas week showing Christendom just what they think of it. But no one seems to have noticed.

On Tuesday, Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Shari'a criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, it legalizes crucifixion.

Hamas's endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad. Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn't feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools. So on Wednesday, Hamas lobbed a mortar shell at the Erez crossing point into Israel just as a group of Gazan Christians were standing on line waiting to travel to Bethlehem for Christmas.

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 12:25pm PT
And just to continue to "keep it Real"
Here is a 5 & 1/2 minute power point presentation of the pre 1947 Palestinians.
OOOh they look dangerous just like the blood thirsty terrorists some of you think they are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjEBQ_bE7uA&NR=1
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 31, 2008 - 12:48pm PT
Yep Riley, it is very sobering. It is a vicious cycle.

The palistinians and the Israelis are shooting below the belt. No side is innocent in this. The palistinians got fed up with being treated like dirt so they got rid of their government who often capitulated to Israel and voted in Hamas. Now they are reaping the consequences of that.

Yet Israel is reaping the consequences of their behavior towards the Palistinians. Many of their acts were criminal. I point especially to the bulldozing of homes of innocent people.

If you act like a bully, then the other side is going to eventually try to bully back.

And then you end up in a vicious cycle.

I would like to see the Palistinians make a concerted effort to stop the rockets.

I would also like to see the Israelis start treating the Palistinians like their law commands. Love your neighbor as yourself. From Leviticus 19:18. They need to stop bulldozing innocent people's homes and they need to pay restitution for those homes that they have bulldozed. This would go a long way towards healing the rifts. They need to stop annexing land just because they have the power to do so. They need to stop bombing hospitals and schools.

And yes, before those who blindly support Israel chime in, the Palistinians need to stop the rocket launches and the human bombs.

The thing that people need to understand is that Palistine does not have a super strong central government. They have more of a tribal government, so most likely what needs to occur is that the UN send in troops to keep the peace. Then create a police force of both Palistinians and UN members and prosecute anyone who launches rockets.

Someone tried to say earlier that the blacks in America never resorted to terrorism and that eventually we started treating them better, yet this ignores the riots that occurred in my cities. Those riots eventually underscored the terrible ways we were mistreating the Blacks and the average American woke up and said we needed to stop this.

The average Israeli is going to have to wake up and see the terrible things that their government has been doing in the name of safety just as the average Palistinian is going to have to wake up and see that the rockets that Hamas fires are doing their cause no good.

What also will need to happen is that the average world citizen will have to wake up and tell both sides to knock it off or we will send in UN troops. Then we will have to stand behind our word and some of our boys will die to try and create peace in this region.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 12:56pm PT
Very well said John. I concur completely.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 31, 2008 - 12:59pm PT
To counter Philo's propaganda, here's the IDF's version of the stories;

http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flG6RQO6hhE&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avm-9IglHTg&feature=related
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
Philo's PROPAGANDA? My propaganda Blue?

These are the words of Israel's founders and leaders NOT mine. Please explain how that is MY propaganda.

You ball-less twit!
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
Specifically and exactly what info of mine do you finally feel is correct Jeff?


In light of the statements of the founders and leaders of Israel and the Zionist movement presented in Israeli History X it is impossible to believe that the "ENTIRE" Jewish population has agreed to share anything.
Prove otherwise! Refute the statements of leading Jews presented in that power point.
The hardcore radicals of the Zionist movement will NEVER allow a peace deal with those they intend to eliminate. They will ceaselessly dangle carrots only to yank them away and then blame the Palestinians for the failure.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 31, 2008 - 01:59pm PT
Philo, The same could be said of the hardcore leaders of Hamas.

The thing is, so much hurt has gone on for so long that people are willing to follow any radical leader. This is true of both the Israelis and the Palistinians. What will need to happen is that people like the jewish grandmother you spoke about will need to assert their influence.

How many jewish grandmothers and palistinian grandmothers would it take to lay down the law and say that we will not fight each other anymore?

Then add in Jewish wives and Palistinian wives and this could end.

...........

Blue, if you looked at the video that Philo linked, you will see that it is simply the words of jewish leaders. They are as violent words as any spoken by any Arab. Watch it and see for yourself.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:01pm PT
Check this out , Philo. This is one of the propaganda pieces from your first video...MISQUOTED and DISTORTED!!!

from here...
http://books.google.com/books?id=nvgat25ddU4C&pg=PR17&ots=5I6MnIhxg2&dq=must+expel+Arabs+and+take+their+places&sig=qhbFe-nltg7LxD7ycIlZKDjmEZo#PPR17,M1

or here...
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

A simple Google search of the clips of that video is all it takes...sheesh!

John, I watched it....still unconvinced. It's propaganda.
Brunosafari

Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:07pm PT
I've not kept up with ST over the holidays but feel compelled to make a point or two on this thread since it is a subject of personal, spiritual and academic interest to me for over thirty years.

But first of all Philo, I want to express my strong sympathy toward you and your wife for what must be one of the most heart wrenching experiences of your lives.

The Utube link of vintage photographs is outstanding and beautiful and I urge everyone to view it.

The title of the thread is, of course, provocative by design and sets into action plenty of rash judgements, but for much of the world the history of this conflict remains shrouded in prejudice and propaganda. I can understand Scabang's methodology in reaching back in (modern) history, even if I think it is unnecessarily alienating.

I am a Christian. Not long after my conversion, while in college, I believe God revealed a shallow prejudice toward Arabs in my being while I was standing in a retail store check-out line. Behind me was a Saudi. I then took the step to introduce myself and over a period of weeks came to be included in the social fabric of a large group of Middle Eastern Muslim Students, including Palistinians. I observed their worship every Friday night and dialoged late into the evenings on the subjects of religion and politics. I cannot express what a positive, powerful, endearing experience that was for me.

I just want to make some important distinctions. When we sight a cliff, we are able to separate the paths of choss from patina, crack from groove, polish from grit. In such a complex subject as this, the starting place is to identify features and pathways which present access and ascent.

1. Ancient Israel should be distinguished from modern Zionism. The term "Israel" is very worthy of an in-depth exegesis, Genesis through Revelation. It won't wash to ignorantly justify atrocities by glibly quoting Gen 12:3 (I will bless those who bless you ("Israel")and curse those who curse you). Jesus has strong, trumping condemnations for those who justify cruelty and injustice on the basis of "religious grounds."

2. Western Christians who often cite purely theistic affinities for supporting Zionist goals should recognize that many, even most, modern Zionists, are, in fact secularized atheists and agnostics.

3. Speaking again to Christians, we should be careful to note the inclusion of Arabs among the early Christians (Acts 2:11), as indeed there are Arab Christians today.

4. We need to distinguish between the widely varied nationalities, cultures, histories and hopes of modern Muslims, recognizing it is not at all homogenous. edit: similarly, Judaism.

5. We should recognize the defining role of revenge, hatred, every kind of evil prejudice, greed, and ethnic/religious pride to nearly every facet of the discussion. It has been within the power of modern Israel to initiate and extend educational, economic and medical "peace incentives," but we have not seen this. Similarly, we in America should own up to our historical complicities and at least present a searching and fair-minded national soul.

Much shame and no easy answers my friends. Personally, I'm still looking skyward for the return of the Messiah, hoping that "redemption draweth nigh,"


Bruce Adams





Chris2

Trad climber
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:08pm PT
Alright, break it up, move on...nothing to see.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
Bruce, while you post is beautiful and true, it may be inappropriate to people like me.

I hold no grudges towards Arabs, but I do question the motives of SOME Zionists...some.

It has little to do with the current conflict though IMO.

Nice thoughts on your part though. I mean that.


Hey Chris, is she a Zionist? Me likee.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:25pm PT
Thank you Bruce for your kind and intelligent words. It really choked me up.
And yes my wife lost friends and family in the last 5 days!
Brunosafari

Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
Thanks Blue--no personal missiles intended amid this tough subject. My comments are admittedly general and incremental.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:44pm PT
come on, philo, bruno, moosie, etc., after a YEAR of rocket attacks, including over 200 in just two weeks after a "truce" ended (note that hamas never stopped firing rockets throughout the truce), what response would you condone? tell me, what should the israelis have done? nothing? what, do you think hamas would have gotten bored? seen the error of their ways? decided money spent on rockets and anti-semitic children's tv programming would be better spent on building hospitals or improving infrastructure? ok, you don't like israel's response...tell us, then, what should they have done?

and where was your precious un or eu or the media during the past year? actually, where were YOU? your silence on the hamas rocket attacks and your current outrage at israel's attempts to stop the attacks is, to say the least, curiouser and curiouser...one might infer that you support arab violence against israelis...or that you generally support a group with a long history of violence, including bomb attacks that target civilians, including children...please, persuade me otherwise
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
Bookworm, Why not try to understand what provoked the rocket attacks? Do you think that this is all just one sided? No truce has ever been completely trouble free, from both sides, and to punish the many for the acts of the few is foolish.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
John, it was one-sided, even Egypt and the UN secretary admit that (as well as just about every other world leader).

They have to go publicly and say that Israel should have constraint though for political purposes, which everyone (including them) knows is bullshit rhetoric.

Hamas went too far and is being dealt with. It's unfortunate for the civilians caught in the middle though.
Brunosafari

Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:55pm PT

I have always opposed violence and the actions of Hamas, thank you.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:58pm PT
What do you mean Jeff statements presented in Israeli History X are as recent as 2001.

Like this telling little gem by Sharon in 2001 and I quote
"Everytime we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that...
I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America and the Americans know it.

What happened in the following seven years to soften this long held dream and agenda of Zionism?




Author:
bookworm

Social climber
From: Falls Church, VA
come on, philo, bruno, moosie, etc., after a YEAR of rocket attacks, including over 200 in just two weeks after a "truce" ended (note that hamas never stopped firing rockets throughout the truce), what response would you condone? tell me, what should the israelis have done? nothing? what, do you think hamas would have gotten bored? seen the error of their ways? decided money spent on rockets and anti-semitic children's tv programming would be better spent on building hospitals or improving infrastructure? ok, you don't like israel's response...tell us, then, what should they have done?

and where was your precious un or eu or the media during the past year? actually, where were YOU? your silence on the hamas rocket attacks and your current outrage at israel's attempts to stop the attacks is, to say the least, curiouser and curiouser...one might infer that you support arab violence against israelis...or that you generally support a group with a long history of violence, including bomb attacks that target civilians, including children...please, persuade me otherwise

They could have ended the Illegal occupation and quit annexing the best of the Palestinian land for settlement development. They could have allowed the Palestinians dignity and justice. These options would go vastly farther towards peace than all the weapons of mass destruction that Israel possesses and hammers the imprisoned Palestinians with, which is quite obviously NOT working. And never will.

or that you generally support a group with a long history of violence, including bomb attacks that target civilians, including children...please, persuade me otherwise
You support Israel and the Jews have a far longer history of violence to "The Others.
What is the difference.

.one might infer that you support arab violence against israelis.

Bookworm have you bothered to actually read any of my post? Or do you just read into them?

Nothing I have ever said condones violence on either side. My saying I understand the plight of the Palestinians is merely the equivalent of the chanted mantra of Israel has a right to defend itself. What's the difference?
When I say "Never again" I mean never again to anyone. When the Israelis say it they mean never again to them.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
And Blew, EVEN FATTRAD hasn't and can't refute the statements in Israeli History X.
Why are you so desperate to try? You look foolish and ignorant trying.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
Hey Blew, this is from your posted link of Ben Gurion.
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them".
Speech in 1937, accepting a British proposal for partition of Palestine which created a potential Jewish majority state, as quoted in New Outlook (April 1977)

Again where is the propaganda in presenting their own words.
This people said these things. The truth often hurts but where is the distortion?

Do you need me to pick apart your links sentence by sentence for you so you can understand?


If you had a shred of historical knowledge I figure you would think the besieged citizens of Stalingrad should have been more severely punished by the Nazis for sneaking food, medicine and materiel over the frozen ice which kept the entire city from starving to death and falling into German hands. You would have wanted them punished because after all they were not citizens or even humans they were damned dirty communists.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:26pm PT
Philo, do you agree that Gurion statement that, " We must expel the Arabs and take their place" is untrue?



"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them".

What's the problem with that statement?




EDIT: If you like that link so much, I wonder why you don't post more quotes from it....
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:32pm PT
No! He said those things to a world stage only after his more private statements were made public. It was in his interest as it has been in the state of Israel's interest to lie to the world about their true intentions.
Not even Fattrad can refute that.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
So they didn't 'lie' about the other quote you posted? Aren't the Zionists supposed to control all that media?

Do you have a valid link verifying Gurion actually publicly said that about Arabs?

"No! He said those things to a world stage "

I'll need proof of that, everything I see says otherwise.


From Philo's new favorite link...

We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on (14 May 1948)

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:40pm PT
I should also point out you're getting pretty far off topic with all this rhetoric from a largely different time and mindset.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:41pm PT
Then open your eyes.

Apparently the last eight years of the Bush administration has left you unable to recognize a lie.


Really do you think 2001 is ancient history in terms of rhetoric?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:41pm PT
Bluering, When you combine it with the knowledge of Israel's historic practices of tactics designed to get people to give up their vision, such as depriving them of water, then you can start to see the hidden meanings.

They are saying that no one will tell them what to do, period. Including continuing their admitted program of having a greater Israel. They just try to say that they will not use force, then they use all kinds of underhanded tactics in the name of defending themselves. They say "Your cousin is a terrorist, , then we will bulldoze your house" is just one type example. There are plenty of others. It is designed to break the will of a people so that they will capitulate to anything.

What happens is that a powerless people resort to guerrilla/terrorist tactics. And a never ending cycle is begun.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
John, why doesn't Egypt help them?

Why do Egyptian border guards regularly shoot Palestinians crossing?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:44pm PT
Do you have a valid link verifying Gurion actually publicly said that about Arabs?

"No! He said those things to a world stage "

I'll need proof of that, everything I see says otherwise.





I'm still waiting.....
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:49pm PT
Blue if Fattrad, the staunchest supportr of Israel and Aipac on ST won't and can't refute these statements why are you so desperate to try.
Like your inane statement that Hamas has killed thousands and thousands of Israeli citizens with their rockets that you doggedly adhered to. You were and are wrong and refuse to accept it.
I ask again why is this so important for you?
What stake do you hold in this conflict?
How many family and friends did you lose in the last five days on either side of the conflict.
For us it has been 5 so far and probably up to 15.
Happy New Year. Shalom!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:55pm PT
Philo, Fatty didn't post the propaganda (probably didn't even watch it), it's up to you to give me some reliable historical record of that statement that I refuted pretty quickly.

It's crap and you know it!
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
philo,

Then why did Sharon hand over Gaza?
So that no Jewish people would be in the way of the destruction involved in invasion.

Because the collective thinking is "we don't want to be outbirthed", the only solution to that is the one the Germans used on us. That's why the current fence line is it.

That is a very telling comment Jeff. How soon will you be shipping the ovens over?

Give up on the Israel wants it all rant, that's old history. Now if Islam could give up on the Saladin solution everything would be ok.

Sharon, Nutt n yahoo, Ehud Barak all made statements to this effect in the 21st century. And to you that is old history. Yet somehow you want to convince us that modern Arabs are clinging to a mythical 12th century "Saladin solution".

Please spare me the lunatic duality of that ridiculous statement.


Jody's evil twin
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
So just to be clear to the few Arab hating, Palestinian bashing, hate filled war mongers here on the Taco Stand.
I on my own business. I can send my crew out to do what ever work needs to be done. Which gives me more than ample time to counter, refute and challenge what ever misinformation and lies you care to spew forth. I will spend the next twenty years stepping on your toes at every turn. I am a accomplished researcher and avid student of history and geo-politics. I am also a notorious insomniac. So go ahead and go for it spew all you want till you get worn out or down. I have NO intent to allow you to malign the Palestinians and lie about this conflict. I will be there every day, everystep of the way.

The Truth is out there, the truth will set you free.


Please go ahead I am waiting.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 31, 2008 - 04:20pm PT
Blue, why don't we help mexicans who just want jobs? The problem is large and if Egypt just opened up their borders, then they would have a flood of refugees. It is ugly in Gaza. Many people want to leave because they are powerless. One of the things the Israel has done has shut down most possibilities of economic rebuilding.

This is an on going problem and the thing I am hoping that you will see is that Israel is not innocent in this process. So don't paint it black and white and say that Hamas must act first before Israel will pretend to act nice. There are news stories after news stories about how Israel has mistreated these people, even during so called truces. They just don't get much play in America because we have a vested interest in making Israel look good.

None of this means Hamas is innocent. There are not.

But try to see the frustration of a people who have been kicked out of their own homes when Israel was created. Not given any land or if given land, then it is poor land with no water. Then when they try political means to get redress, they are ignored for years and years. So some of them resort to terrorism and then all of them are blamed and Israel punishes the whole group.

So they vote in a more radical leadership and the cycle of violence continues.

Israel is not innocent in this. In the last 20 years a lot of things that they have done in the name of defending themselves have actually been about vengeance.

They aren't going after the terrorist, which many could support. They are exacting vengeance on a people.

Yes it is easy to understand why they are doing it. They are tired of being a whipping dog. Their plight was ignored by the world before WW2, and now that they have power. But this power does not give them the right to try and destroy a people even if 5 percent of those people are causing serious problems.

Look closer into zionism and you will start to understand some of what I am saying.

I will end by saying that Hamas needs to stop the rockets. World pressure needs to be applied to get them to stop. Israel must also stop its aggressive acts and world pressure must be brought to bare on them.

The problem is that many people in America are ignorant of the situation in places like gaza. They watch a 30 second news blip of a rocket attack and don't look at the underlying causes.

Yes Sharon gave up Gaza, because of world pressure. So Israel began a process of cutting them off, in the name of defense. They use brutal tactics in the name of stopping terrorism, but their tactics do nothing to actually stop the terrorist. They actually inflame the situation.

If you look for underlying reasons that they would inflame a situation, then look at zionism. The history is all there to see.

Now I have to go. Please try Blue, to see both sides of the argument. Both sides are deeply frustrated. It is beyond ugly and neither side is innocent. I think that a UN peacekeeping force will have to be brought in if this overt violence does not end soon. That will of course not end the covert violence. Public pressure and a waking up of the people will be required for that.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 31, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
philo,

Poked around a bit.
From everything I've found Guron did not say the statement in question at a speech or in public.
But he did write it in a letter to his son.

Passing on to future generations.....the past means nothing at all Jeff!
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 04:36pm PT
The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.
Speech in 1937, accepting a British proposal for partition of Palestine which created a potential Jewish majority state, as quoted in New Outlook (April 1977)



Notice that is says "speech". And unless he gave speeches in a closet that would make it public. though it only took 40 years for it to be made fully public.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 31, 2008 - 04:37pm PT
I was referring to...

" We must expel the Arabs and take their place"
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 31, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
"Prior to Hamas seizing power from Fatah, the people of Gaza were not "cut off"."

I like how you replace the concept of seizing for what actually happened, an open election that Israel was not happy with at all.
UncleDoug

Social climber
Dec 31, 2008 - 04:58pm PT
It actually might have been.
The Pals elected Hammas, not because they promised to kick Israel's ass (which is what allot of Israel's apologists want you to believe), because Fatah was/is corrupt beyond all recognition and did nothing to help the everyday Pal. Hammas did. They were doing the humanitarian work Fatah should have been.

Once Hammas gained power the pooch got screwed by Israel's insistence that no one have anything to do with the newly elected government and that the election was illegitimate.
If that government had been taken seriously and given the legitimacy it needed from the rest of the world you'd have something or someone to take to task when sh#t hits the fan. But instead there is a loose coalition of factions in Gaza that can only be responded to with more violence since there is no central pillar of power.

And I'm sure this will all happen again. Things will "quiet" down. An election will be held and Israel will not be happy with the outcome.

Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.......
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Dec 31, 2008 - 05:11pm PT
Here is another classic Ben Gurion quote.

" If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel.
It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promissed it ot us, but how could that interest them? Our goal is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: We have come and stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime minister) (The Jewish Paradox)

And here is a speech addressed to Ben Gurion by a noted Jewish philosopher in 1949

"We will have to face the reality that Israel is neither innocent, nor redemptive. And that in it's creation, and expansion; we as Jews, have caused what we historically have suffered; A refugee population in Diaspora."

And the same learned Jewish philosopher later said in 1968.

"When we [followers of the prophetic Judaism] returned to Palestine...The majority of the Jewish people preferred to learn from Hitler rather than from us."

And one of my all time favorites.

"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the Freedom Party(Herut), a political party closely akin in it's organization, method, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties."
Albert Einstein 1948.


Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 1, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
Where do you suppose this came from and when?


EDIT
From our 1974 class project. . . .

Funny how things have hardly changed in 35 years
Porkchop_express

Trad climber
thats what she said...
Jan 1, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
what is it supposed to be? who is it from/to? what lends it authenticity other than the archaic appearance?
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 1, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
" Where do you suppose this came from and when? "

10 to one it is from one of the uncountable resolutions against Israel that were completely ignored( most likely from mid 70's).

Did some more research regarding events that led up to the current hostilities.

So who violated the cease fire and started this latest round of bull sh#t? Whom or what group will gain the most from this latest round of hostilities?

Read and use the 10% alloted...

Pretty much nails it.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 1, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
There is a UN resolution regarding the borders of Israel and demands they return to them. UN resolution 242. Never been rescinded.

But we can't face things like this and don't know how to deal with them. Yes it's bad that Hamas fires rockets into nearby Israeli towns and settlements. The question I don't see being asked is "Which Israel is being rocketed by Hamas? 1948 Israel? Post 1967 Israel? Or even later settlements?

Is there any Illegal Israeli settlement that is considered a legit target by anybody? If not, how can folks consider it OK for Israel to deal so much death and destruction from the air in Gaza, killing lots of kids in the process? They have such military superiority that destruction through airstrikes must be for convenience and safety's sake no?

Seems like a big double standard to me. As long as Israel keeps expanding illegal settlements, against any and all agreements with the world and the US, how can they be regarded as faultless in this violence?

Peace

Karl
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:11am PT
All of California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Texas, New Mexico and parts of Colorado, Oklahoma, Wyoming, and Kansas were all STOLEN from Mexico.

But if Mexicans started shooting thousands of rockets over the border at American cities such as San Diego, Tucson, Yuma and El Paso, you can bet that America would take much stronger action then what we're seeing Israel take in Gaza.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:18am PT
Check out JewTube for the latest IDF footage of the destruction…
Good stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:58am PT
...terrorism seems to be the national sport of the Muslim.

Looking at it that way my anxiety is reduced
to zero when seeing the news. Its just another sports
commentary on winners and losers.

40-love Serve.......wap.......Blam!!!
Your serve Muslim...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 2, 2009 - 09:19am PT
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123085925621747981.html?mod=rss_opinion_main

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/02/gaza-nazis/

"Jews are vermin and less than human, Hamas says. Oh, wait. Wasn't the same said of the Jews by the Nazis? The only difference is that today's killers don't speak German."
WoodySt

Trad climber
Riverside
Jan 2, 2009 - 10:01am PT
Keep pounding on them Israel.
Avishai

Mountain climber
Jan 2, 2009 - 10:15am PT
Actually, every time I call Israel, the automated message there is in German. . . .
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 10:51am PT
Oh where to start.....
How about with Granite climber.
"All of California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Texas, New Mexico and parts of Colorado, Oklahoma, Wyoming, and Kansas were all STOLEN from Mexico".

Actually the land was taken from the indigenous Americans, you know injuns.

But if Mexicans started shooting thousands of rockets over the border at American cities such as San Diego, Tucson, Yuma and El Paso, you can bet that America would take much stronger action then what we're seeing Israel take in Gaza".

While there is a correlation between Americas "Manifest Destiny" and Zionist expansion the two situations are not at all the same.
The difference is the Mexicans have a free country to live in, and the indians live in autonomous regions free to travel and express them selves.
What would be the pretext for them to attack us? Those of you who want to correlate these other situations to Gaza are either ignorant of history or blind to the present. You are pawns of a brilliant PR campaign.

Next...
Corniss Chopper.
"..terrorism seems to be the national sport of the Muslim".

For you to say that indicates absolutely NO understanding of Islam. And no understanding about the conditions under this illegal occupation. Or of an occupied peoples legal right to resist.

"Looking at it that way my anxiety is reduced
to zero when seeing the news. Its just another sports
commentary on winners and losers".

Glad you have no anxiety about War Crimes, Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide.
How many family members and friends have you lost in this, apparently to you, righteous revenge of Israels? Want to know the death toll for my wife?

"40-love Serve.......wap.......Blam!!!
Your serve Muslim"...
How about I say Israel didn't learn from their embarrassingly bloodied nose in Lebannon so bring it on. More dead Jews!


Onward...
WoodySt.
"Keep pounding on them Israel'.

This would be tantamount to me saying WOO HOO more dead Jews everytime a rocket kills one or a suicide bomber kills several. But that would be inhumane of me right? Because you all know all Jews are innocent victims of terrorism and perpetually under the threat of extermination. And conversely you all know that every Arab is a blood thirsty murderer bent on the destruction of Israel. That all Arabs want all non Muslims to convert or be killed. That they are comming to get you. That the Palestinians have no right to a home land. And that every single Palestinian child is taught from birth how to kill Jews with nothing more than their teeth. Which is about all you will allow them to have. Which is why you see teenagers throwing stones at tanks. We found that Noble and Honorable when the Slovaks were battling against the Soviet Union's invasion. We even found it poignant when the Chinese protester stood in front of the Chinese tank column.
But not the hopeless Palestinians. They are afforded no such humanity. You have been taught only one story line here, filled with myth, disinformation and out right bald faced lies. I am beginning to see why you same folks think Public Education in America has failed.
The truth is if they had a loaf of bread they wouldn't throw at a tank! But when you endeavor to starve a people into submission you get what you deserve!

So here goes....
GO HAMAS GO! KILL MORE JEWS! KILL THEM ALL! DRIVE THEM INTO THE SEA. EXTERMINATE THEM ALL! MORE AND BETTER ROCKETS! MORE SUICIDE BOMBERS!
KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL. KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL,!!!!!!!!

Now doesn't that sound almost as absurd as your all's cheering the converse?




UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:01am PT
philo,

Challenge anyone who keeps cheering for more Palestinian deaths to say the things they type here directly to your relatives.

And anyone who cheers for Israeli deaths should have to say that directly to someone who has family directly affected by this.

Then we'd see where people really stand!
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:14am PT
Karl,

The problem with 242 is that it also calls for secure borders for Israel. The borders didn't seem too secure in 1967 or 1974, so Israel expanded them a bit, the current fence line seems about right and the supremes have made reasonable adjustments.


Jody's evil twin


No Jeff the problem with UN resolution 242 as well as with scores of other UN sanctions is that Israel refuses to comply. The wars of 67 and 74 were we started "preemptively" by the Israelis not the Arabs. These wars were not defensive but offensive. They were a land grab pure and simple.
And you keep referring to it as a "fence" which sounds so quaint and benign.
But that "fence" dwarfs the Berlin Wall, making that attrocity seem like a neighborly place to gossip.
That is NO FENCE. It is a prison wall! And it isn't placed with the intent of security for Israel but rather a deliberate annexation of Palestinian land. It is erected to disenfranchise the Palestinians further and further. Look at the actual and intended line of the "FENCE". The "fence" that our tax dollars are paying for to the tune of three million dollars a mile. The only logic to the line of that "fence" is to imprison the Palestinians in an un-viable Bantustan existence with absolutely NO HOPE of a State of their own.
It is not a "fence" Jeff it is a CRIME!
Please oh wise and powerful Jeffe explain to us why prior to the founding of the State of Israel that Jews and Arabs and Christian and Aramaians all coexisted on this land as they do today in cities all over the world and right here in America?
Go reread the words of your founders and leaders for a clue.

Lastly Jeff if you lost family or friends in a Gazan rocket attack I wouldn't gloat and call for more.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:17am PT
And Jeff, there are countless times were Jewish Rabbis call for the wanton killing of Muslims.

Your point is a non starter.

Both sides are f*#ked up.
It's just that you can not see the proverbial forrest through the trees.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:24am PT
Religious leaders like the Rabbis who continuously preach hate and destruction of the Arabs? Please don't insult me by trying to deny that many religious leaders on all sides
are radical hate mongering instigators.


Every heard of Rabbi Firestone Jeff? She is extremely active in the PEACE movement. Which has garnered her extreme criticism and death threats from JEWS!
She is one of my wifes best friends. Imagine that a Jewish Rabbi and a Christian Palestinians as friends working towards PEACE together. Oh GOD what is the world coming to. PEACE I hope!
Anyway she would gladly discuss and debate Hebrew theology, Jewish history and the humanitarian crises of the illegal occupation with you. Though I very much doubt you have the ammo for a serious debate on the real issues. You are only capable of perpetuating the disinformation of your beloved AIPAC.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:28am PT
Jeff,

You sound like the hate monger you always have been.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:36am PT
"I can see both sides of this conflict. Its quite simple":
NO you can't see both sides. And NO it is not quite simple.

"Any American who actively supports either side has traded patriotism for something else entirely. YOU are going to drag us down".
What is more American than standing up for PEACE and JUSTICE?

"So stop it - all of you. Unless you're willing to travel to the mid East and take up arms yourselves, STFU about Israel and Palestine and let them have it out. Its not our affair".

DMT

Hey DingDong I guess you missed the part where I explained that my wife recently returned from nearly a month in Palestine and Israel. But you wouldn't understand because she didn't take up arms. Rather she took up ears and listened compassionately to all sides. Her American relatives have made scores of trips there with Christian Peace teams. She has lost at least a dozen family and friends in this latest round of bloodshed.
So you see IT IS OUR AFFAIR! Who else among the STers has anywhere as much at stake in this as MY FAMILY?
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:44am PT
"What is more American than standing up for PEACE and JUSTICE? "

You are totally right philo.

That is why any actors in the conflict that are helping to perpetuate the situ need to be taken to task. Regardless of their political/religious affiliation.

That is why the US can not bee seen as an impartial arbitrator in the conflict. Too long towing the Israeli line.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:44am PT
Then get out and stay out like you want the US to do. It's not your concern so STFU!
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
So DaftRat sounds like you are back to your rabid war mongering ways. Which Middle East cities are you suggesting be nuked?
How about Tel Aviv as a good start?




And Dingus that is the smatest most correct thing you have yet said.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
I say Israel nukes Gaza.....
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:15pm PT
No I was wrong Dingus that last post was the smartest thing you have offered on this thread. Perhaps I misjudged you earlier.
But if you feel that strongly perhaps you should lobby your government to divest from Israel and put real humanitarian conditions on the BILLIONS of our dollars we give them. Tell your Congressmen to show AIPAC the door. Then you can feel you are doing something you believe in.
WBraun

climber
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
Tell your Congressmen to show AIPAC the door. Then you can feel you are doing something you believe in.

Won't do one thing to fix the problem.

The problem starts with every individual.

No one knows who they really are and why they're here.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
And DaftRat Really, you are going to quote Condi "skank" Rice?
You are going to quote someone from the most discredited and corrupt administration in American History. What a tool!

Why don't you mention that Jordanian police clashed with pro Palestinian protestors who were marching towards the Israeli embassy. Or would that "clash" with your preposterous "clash of civilizations" theory.
WBraun

climber
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
I also believe you are starting to lose it Philo.

Take a break, recoup your senses, you're starting to unravel.

We do understand the gist of your pain ....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
"All of California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Texas, New Mexico and parts of Colorado, Oklahoma, Wyoming, and Kansas were all STOLEN from Mexico".

Actually the land was taken from the indigenous Americans, you know injuns.

But if Mexicans started shooting thousands of rockets over the border at American cities such as San Diego, Tucson, Yuma and El Paso, you can bet that America would take much stronger action then what we're seeing Israel take in Gaza".

While there is a correlation between Americas "Manifest Destiny" and Zionist expansion the two situations are not at all the same.
The difference is the Mexicans have a free country to live in, and the indians live in autonomous regions free to travel and express them selves.
What would be the pretext for them to attack us? Those of you who want to correlate these other situations to Gaza are either ignorant of history or blind to the present. You are pawns of a brilliant PR campaign.


Philo, much of the land was taken from Native Americans (I won't call them "injuns" like you did) but there were also areas which had been settled by Mexicans for generations. Similarly, much of the land which is now Israel was occupied not by "Palestinians" but by Bedouins.

The Mexicans might attack us if they do not accept the borders imposed by us, just like Hamas is attacking Israel because they do not accept the borders imposed by Israel.

The Israels have withdrawn from Gaza some time ago and it has been an autonomous region governed by Hamas.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
You are right Werner I am stressed to extremes and my wife is despondent.
I very much appreciate your understanding.
But try to put your self in my EBs for just a moment.
Can I really be expected to remain silent when some STers are chanting and rooting for the slaughter of innocence and the death of Justice?
If you go to the Holocaust museum they make a big point about accusing those who would not speak out. Those who stayed in silence.
I will not be one who later is accused of staying silent in the face of genocide.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
Philo: "so bring it on. More dead Jews!"

This has been the attitude of Hamas. Maybe if they had a different attitude more of them would be alive today. They want to wipe out all Jews and they are the ones dying.

Philo, I hope your wife's relatives come out of this OK. I know you hate the Israelis but the fact your wife's relatives are still alive is a testament to the restraint of the Israelis. If the Israelis were as bloodthirsty and fanatical as Hamas, there would not be a single Palestinian left alive in Gaza or the West Bank. They would all be ethnically cleansed.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 2, 2009 - 12:55pm PT
DMT writes
"For many its a question of tribes. There is no more to it than that - the Israeli's are more 'like us' than are the Palestinians. And then there is that bullshit about god giving them the land - and a decent portion of Israel-supporting American morons hide behind the skirts of that one. "

That's it. Whoever is "most like us" wins.

Ironically, Israeli leaders didn't want to take Gaza in the 67 war but the military leaders took it anyway.

Peace

karl
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Jan 2, 2009 - 01:14pm PT
Pombo, McCain, Lungren... You really have a hard time picking friends Fatty. I guess you get exactly what you pay for.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
"It all depends on the situation, what if Iran launched a nuke first"?

What Iranian Nuke Fatty. Where as the Iranians may (or may not) be developing a Nuclear weapon (No verifiable proof of it just innuendo, speculation and disinformation) it would take many more years for them to develop a reliable delivery system that could hit Israel. But, though Israel denies it to this day, Everyone knows that Israel already has every type of WMD including what is likely the 4th largest stock pile of nuclear weapons. Technology their spies stole from US.
Who is more likely to launch a nuke first?


"Philo, much of the land was taken from Native Americans (I won't call them "injuns" like you did)"

I called them "injuns" not out of disrespect but to highlight the racist verbage you Arab bashers regularly use

"but there were also areas which had been settled by Mexicans for generations. Similarly, much of the land which is now Israel was occupied not by "Palestinians" but by Bedouins".

Who do you think the "bedouins were? They were and are the Palestinians. Or do you believe they came from outside solely to make life miserable to Jews?

"The Mexicans might attack us"

Their only attack is by Illegal immigration.
Why don't we help them build their infrastructure? It would be cheeper that building another wall.


"The Israels have withdrawn from Gaza some time ago and it has been an autonomous region governed by Hamas".

They only withdrew their illegal unsettlers There is nothing autonomous about being subjected to three years of lock down and blockade. Can you not understand that, when not being bombed, these people are being starved to death.

"The Palestinians will flourish in their own nation on the borders Israel has established".

Jeff there is no "flourishing" in an Apartheid Bantustan.

"I know you hate the Israelis"

No Graniteclimber I do not hate Israelis. Nor do I hate Jews. Though I have no love lost for Zionist be they Jewish or Christian. I only oppose the brutal genocidal policies of the State of Israel. If they would honestly allow peaceful coexistence I would have NO problem with them.

"but the fact your wife's relatives are still alive is a testament to the restraint of the Israelis".

NO they are not all still alive. And GC it only is a testament to the reality that Gaza is an inescapable prison.
Those who leave are banned by Israel from returning. Imagine if once here we never let the Mexicans return.

"If the Israelis were as bloodthirsty and fanatical as Hamas, there would not be a single Palestinian left alive in Gaza or the West Bank. They would all be ethnically cleansed".

Which IS the long term goal of the Zionists.


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 2, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/01/AR2009010101780.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns

saw the dark knight last night (i know, but i hate paying theater prices), brilliant movie on so many levels; i was especially struck by the joker's explanation of civilization; like conrad illustrates in heart of darkness, civilization/morality is a lie, but it's a lie we must preserve because without it, we are sham humans...the joker's explanation to batman about how society's rules" renders good people powerless against those who don't have rules is a perfect explanation of what's happening in gaza and the war on terror in general...the fact is, we need somebody like batman, somebody willing to break the rules in order to preserve them...the howard dent character is the lie; batman is the truth

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/015/328xilsf.asp

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB121694247343482821.html

philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 02:03pm PT

"Blame the Palestinians problems on Wahabbi Clerics and Iranian Mullahs, they are the source of the problem".

Keep repeating your Mantra DaftRat eventually even you will believe it.

I prefer to hold Radical Rabbis, Rabid Zionists, American Industrialists and Ball-less American politicians responsible.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
"You have your head in the sand on every issue. "

Jeff,

Sand is allot closer to Palestine than up your a*#, where your head is on any issue.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
Jeff,

Why refute a complete stab in the dark.
You have been wrong on every single prediction you have ever made.
There are all sorts of claims regarding Iran's capabilities - from they have the bomb now to they wont have the capability until 2015.

So pull your head out of your ass and think, Jeff.

UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
"You have opinions here on ST, my opinions go right to the decision makers."

IF, and a big IF, what you are saying is correct, more of a reason to make sure you never hold public office. At least as it is, people in positions of power have other inputs, not just your opinion.

But I'd like to see you prove your power.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
A little pay for play with Ruddy, eh?

Come on Jeff, get one of your power buddies to post here on ST for all to see.
No third hand reports.
No "I say it there fore it is true" crap.

Get someone in power to post up!
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
Yeah, right.

If you are "friends" with someone in "power" surely they can do you a favor.
Or are you out of political capital?
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
With nothing left to work with DaftRat is resorting to his fall back position... Thread Drift and self pontification.

Curious thing happened last night that leads me to believe I have gotten under someone's skin.
I was out walking the dog when a nondescript sedan pulls up next to me and rolls down the window.Three guys in dark jogging suits are sitting in the vehicle. My initial thought was they were lost and wanted directions. But my dog, who is the best judge of character that I know was instantly on guard, hair raised, teeth barred and all.
But being a good civic citizen I ask if I can help. Their accents are vaguely familiar.
They proceed to ask me what I am doing, where I live, what's my name. Not really asking directions after all. Then they let it slip that they know my wife and kids names. OOPS.
Their questioning (bordering on interrogation) is just a little too personal and provocative. Knowing the Mossad's penchant for operational triads and smelling gun oil drifting from the car I put two and two together. By now my dog really wants a piece of these guys. So while holding her at bay I lean into the open window and tell them in no uncertain terms that I don't appreciate this unwarranted intrusion of my privacy. My wife is a non violent quaker. A pacifist. But being a survivor of some mean streets I am not!
I succinctly explain that I know who they are and if they approach me or my family again they will never call home to momma again. I can be fairly menacing when the need arises. So I believe they got the message loud and clear. If they had been merely street punks it is probably they would have jumped out of the car and all over me. But instead they drove off slowly, turned the corner and parked. They surveilled me till I was out of site. Haven't seem them since.

Friends of yours Fatty? If you have the connections that you endlessly pontificate that you do then I suggest you tell the thugs to back off. They have no idea who they are messing with. Let's keep this peaceful. No one want's to see the ugly Philo now do they. If I see them or any counter part comrades lurking near my home or my wife and kid's schools I won't hesitate to exact my own revenge.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
"Wont't everyone be shocked when DC strolls in YellowPines. "

He never will.

...and philo nailed it.

I still want to see Jeff pull off getting a "person in power" to post here on ST.
But once again... never will happen.
Just like every other prediction Jeff has ever made or cause he has stood for. I guess someone has to be the looser.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
"You were right, philo has lost it."

Jeff,

I'd watch what you say or do anymore on ST in regards to what philo posted
Remember when you threatened me by posting you were going to get the Mossad on me?
That just may come back to haunt you allot sooner than you think!
Regardless of what the reality might be.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
Jeff you always think I have lost it.
Why this time? Is it that you don't believe my encounter? Or that you think the Mossad is infallible and omnipotent? Please don't insult our intelligence by trying to suggest the Mossad doesn't operate in the US.





It must really irk you that Scabang's thread gets more traffic than your ridiculous CofC rants.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
Simple e-mail contact to reply to.
No problem at all, Jeff.

Or would "your powerful friends" find out what you have been posting?


EDIT:

It would save everyone here allot of time if you could just do a simple thing.
Get your "powerful friends" to back you up!

Face it Jeff, you are a fraud.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 05:42pm PT
I find it interesting that I continually post legitimate information from credible, often Israeli, sources.

While Jeff posts unfounded rhetorical propaganda from the likes of Condi "skank" Rice. A member of the most discredited Presidential Administration ever. A person with a vested interest in the endless continuation of conflict.

Last update - 07:36 02/01/2009

Anshel Pfeffer / Right and Left, Diaspora Jews more critical of Israel than ever

By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent

Tags: Zionism, Hamas, Gaza

There is something very strange and more than a little frustrating for a reporter used to being on the frontlines to experience a war in Israel from afar. Having to experience the goings-on not only from the reports of one's Israeli colleagues but also through the hall of mirrors that is the international media, with its sometimes incomprehensible agenda and likes and dislikes. At least as an Israeli you know where you stand, with all the familiar personal views, loyalties and criticisms. But to be a non-Israeli Jew can be a lot more difficult during such times.

Well not for all Jews. A vast number, I hesitate to say the majority, are just not that interested. They are much busier eking out the days left of their Christmas/New Year's vacation, and news of renewed conflagration around Gaza receives only a passing register. Those who are engaged enough to really care and spend time glued to the news channels and reading every bit of information available on Web sites can be divided into three groups.

There are large number of Pavlovian flag-wavers, good and innocent Zionists and Jews who see only the trauma inflicted on the people of Sderot, Ashkelon and other parts of the country's south-west, and instinctively position themselves behind the IDF, often saying that the government should have allowed it to go in further and strike harder.
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There is, in my impression, a somewhat smaller but highly vocal group belonging usually to the more radical left, and even fewer to the anti-Israel Neturei Karta sect, who feel compelled to atone for Israel's manifold sins and join its enemies in the demonstrations and sign petitions accusing the Zionist entity of war crimes. They have cut themselves firmly off from the local community's mainstream, and they are fine where they are.

There is, though, a third stream of Jews - perhaps not the widest one, but I believe quite significant - who have more complex and uncomfortable feelings on the matter. They care deeply for Israel and understand even why its government felt compelled to launch the devastating Operation Cast Lead, but they are extremely disturbed and hurt by the level of civilian deaths and destruction that almost seems part and parcel of the action. Surely, they say, there must, there has to be another way of doing this. And they live with those doubts, often unexpressed, even among families and close friends because the worst thing they find is that others around them don't seem to discern between the different nuances, and can't find in themselves compassion for the dead and wounded on the other side. They begin asking themselves very awkward questions: Are they surrounded by latent racists, or is something wrong with them that denies the feelings of certainty of those around them? Or does everyone have similar doubts but are simply afraid to express them?

Perhaps those in the most difficult predicament are those who work daily in Jewish and community organizations, the kind of august institutes that have already felt the need to issue those meaningless announcements that "the pan-national Jewish forum stands firmly in support of Israel." Almost constantly, they find their dearest beliefs challenged.

"I just couldn't understand how the other people in the office were just incapable of acknowledging there was any real suffering on the Palestinian side, and that Israel has a significant portion of the responsibility for that," said to me a friend working in one of those organizations in London. "I feel so alone because no one seems to understand how torn I feel about this. I understand Israel's position very well and to a degree identify with the reasons for launching the operation, but why are none of them saddened by children dying? They don't even seem to see these reports."

Two sides of the same coin

My friend found his own peace by trying to keep quiet at work but donating money to an NGO purchasing medical supplies for hospitals in Gaza.

For Jews in the U.S., things are easier. Due to the size of the community and the relative self-confidence of American Jews, there are more platforms and mid-streams that allow people to show both support and criticism at the same time, and far greater openness to individuals forming and expressing their own independent views. In smaller communities like those of Britain and France, the establishment seems to operate on a siege mentality, and the ideas of "us" and "them" are much more rigid.

Many Israelis will think that all this is indulgent bleeding-heartedness on the part of those who don't serve in the IDF and pay Israeli taxes, and their families are nowhere near the range of the Qassams and Grads: Why should we care about what they are thinking? But Israel expects support, fund-raising, lobbying and media advocacy efforts to be made by the Jews of the Diaspora on its behalf, and that can only take place in an open environment.

Ultimately, only Israel's citizens, Jewish and Arab, have the right to vote and decide, but it has to be realized that while the world's Jews are still broadly in favor of Israel, they have more information and less innocence than ever before and will give that support, but with a healthy dose of criticism - whether from the Right of the Israeli government being too namby-pamby with the Palestinians, or from those on the Left who want to see the military option used as sparingly as possible.

Both Israeli and Diaspora leaders should be providing space for this kind of discourse, because stifling will not consolidate support for Israel but increase frustration and disillusionment with it.






According to Jeff I am loosing it while he has a hot line to Dick Cheney.
Speaking of little Dickie you should definitely bring him to Face Lift Jeff. That way we can exercise our right to a Citizen's arrest and haul his evil ass to the Hague to stand trial for WAR CRIMES! Please DaftRat Bring him on,
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
Dream on Fatty. And if as you say my head is in the sand then perhaps you could beat some sense into it if you would go pound sand.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
"I won't be giving you DC's email addy. You should check in with "the Fet", he'll vouch for my connections."

You are dense, Jeff.
If you manage to pay off one of your "friends in power" to post here THEY can provide the info.
Not you. The "person in power".
Once again if you are soooooo close to "people in power" this should be no problem what so ever.
If you pulled this off, look at the shame you cast upon me!

"And I'm not ashamed of what I write here on ST, even Obama agreed with me the other day."

Sweet! Keep posting!
I'll continue to feed you rope...
couchmaster

climber
Jan 2, 2009 - 07:29pm PT
I generally have disliked most of your posts Philo. We don't agree on this issue. However, if true: this one really has me riled up. I find this kind of piss poor attempt at intimidation of an American citizen who was freely speaking his version of the truth deeply angering. (AGAIN...if true). Do you, or have you been, arguing this on other websites Philo?

philo wrote:
Curious thing happened last night that leads me to believe I have gotten under someone's skin.
I was out walking the dog when a nondescript sedan pulls up next to me and rolls down the window.Three guys in dark jogging suits are sitting in the vehicle. My initial thought was they were lost and wanted directions. But my dog, who is the best judge of character that I know was instantly on guard, hair raised, teeth barred and all.
But being a good civic citizen I ask if I can help. Their accents are vaguely familiar.
They proceed to ask me what I am doing, where I live, what's my name. Not really asking directions after all. Then they let it slip that they know my wife and kids names. OOPS.
Their questioning (bordering on interrogation) is just a little too personal and provocative. Knowing the Mossad's penchant for operational triads and smelling gun oil drifting from the car I put two and two together. By now my dog really wants a piece of these guys. So while holding her at bay I lean into the open window and tell them in no uncertain terms that I don't appreciate this unwarranted intrusion of my privacy. My wife is a non violent quaker. A pacifist. But being a survivor of some mean streets I am not!
I succinctly explain that I know who they are and if they approach me or my family again they will never call home to momma again. I can be fairly menacing when the need arises. So I believe they got the message loud and clear. If they had been merely street punks it is probably they would have jumped out of the car and all over me. But instead they drove off slowly, turned the corner and parked. They surveilled me till I was out of site. Haven't seem them since.

Friends of yours Fatty? If you have the connections that you endlessly pontificate that you do then I suggest you tell the thugs to back off. They have no idea who they are messing with. Let's keep this peaceful. No one want's to see the ugly Philo now do they. If I see them or any counter part comrades lurking near my home or my wife and kid's schools I won't hesitate to exact my own revenge.


I do have a bit of belief issue about that story though...like these 3 guys with faint accents don't have anything better or more productive to do at this time than to drive by to try and intimidate you? Your phone and internet is already tapped by the US Gov't, as are all of ours as well...what could they gain by a drive by? And in reading the thread above, you say that your wife is both a Palestinian and a Quaker who has recently traveled to Israel...that's very, very different and unusual as well wouldn't you say Philo? ....

(ie, Philo said: "Chaz I am sorry you missed my post that explained that my wife is Palestinian and has family and friends under fire in the war zone.

*and*

My wife just talked last night to one of her best friends. She is a wonderfully loving 90+ year old Jewish gentle woman who Loves my Quaker Palestinian wife like a daughter.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
Couch I believe it speaking truth to power. Thus I have not been silent. I attend rallys and political events fairly regularly. This is not the first episode of harassment I have experienced but it was the most chillingly direct. Usually it is just a matter of being photographed sometimes followed. But this was a direct contact and as such much more intentionally intimidating.


No Fat fool you don't know me. I was for me in bed early so I could get a before dawn start for some quick ice climbing. Unfortunately the ice wasn't in good shape because of an odd warm spell (60 degrees in Boulder today) So I came back and went to sleep
Some of actually climb occasionally. Didn't post till I got back and going again. In fact I was willing to let this thread fade. But some folks won't let go.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 2, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
i find it sad that humans find it easy to pick a side or an enemy and consider violence against them without remorse. It's sad in Hamas and Israel alike and also on Supertopo.

Just the way we've wired ourselves....to be normal nice people but well willing to push the button for the pain and torment of others without insuring we have followed a righteous path ourselves, in fact, with evidence to the contrary.

I could stand behind Israeli violence if I hadn't studied and seen the continuing land grap and ethnic cleansing at the root of their policy. I want to support somebody doing the right thing but all the wrong people are in power.

I hope Obama can do something about that, but I'm afraid the current escalation is timed to get something done, or maybe just started, before he can do anything about it.

Peace

Karl
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
"I do have a bit of belief issue about that story though...like these 3 guys with faint accents don't have anything better or more productive to do at this time than to drive by to try and intimidate you? Your phone and internet is already tapped by the US Gov't, as are all of ours as well...what could they gain by a drive by"?

Many of you won't remember when I explained both my families Polish roots and my wife's Diaspora Palestinian roots. Other than the ones who emigrated before WW2 none of my family made it alive out of the ruin of Poland. Their history is all but lost. I went to Poland 3 times and found NOTHING.

My wife's was and is a very prominent Christian Palestinian (not a rarity at all) Family with deep roots. Her cousin is Noor the former Queen of Jordan a prominent peace activist. One uncle was the head of the FAA under Kennedy. Her great Uncle was the only Christian Arab Mayor of Jerusalem. And these are not the most amazing members of her remarkable family.

I posted this and good deal more on a previously thread all of which is 100% verifiable. And because it would lead anyone who cared to research a little to names and addresses my wife was mortified and frightened that I was disclosing too much. It would have been child's play to put what I posted together with where we live and just wait for an opportunity. My take is the encounter I experienced was a crude attempt to intimidate me. But I am a veteran of among other things all the big bad nasty Black Canyon routes so I don't intimidate easily. But when it comes to a veiled threat about my children's well being I draw the line.








"And in reading the thread above, you say that your wife is both a Palestinian and a Quaker who has recently traveled to Israel...that's very, very different and unusual as well wouldn't you say Philo"? ....

I am curious why you think that is different and unusual? Most of the Jewish members of my family (surprised?) were initially taken aback with the notion of a Quaker Palestinian. But they all adore her and her peaceful ways.
A great many Palestinians are Christian which most Arab bashers either don't know or choose to ignore. Perhaps you were not aware that the Quakers, who were tremendously instrumental in the founding of America, are Christians.

"(ie, Philo said: "Chaz I am sorry you missed my post that explained that my wife is Palestinian and has family and friends under fire in the war zone".

*and*

"My wife just talked last night to one of her best friends. She is a wonderfully loving 90+ year old Jewish gentle woman who Loves my Quaker Palestinian wife like a daughter.

Both my wife and I have many Jewish friends and I have Jewish relatives. But to be clear my wife is the lovable pacifist and a social phenomenon. I am just a Polish beast.


I really Don't care if any die hard Arab bashers don't believe a word I say I will continue to speak truth to power.


I did try to take these men's picture with my camera phone but for some reason they were very camera shy. I probably shouldn't have said "Hey wait let me get your picture". Next time I won't advertise.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
"And you think DC would provide a real email addy so you can harass him?"

Yeah right. Harass the VP. That would be a great one for the Darwin awards.
Why not his office address.
I'm sure they have more filtering capability than anyone.
Anyway, I'd send off an e-mail just asking for a reply, nothing more or less, so I can verify where the e-mail came from. I could care less if it came from his sec.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
Oh God I knew it was inevitable but I hope we are not Witnessing the Loisification of yet another thread. Lois my wife and I used to own an orchard in the four corner area of Colorado. You can only talk "apples" for so long. Please don't here.


And Lois with all respect (so you will at least hear me with an open mind) This is NOT a one way street. Both sides have at times called for the total destruction of the other. Not just one side. Both sides have a legal right to defend themselves. Not just one side.
The significant disparity is Israel receives more financial aid from us than any other country. In fact they receive more than the next three countries combined. With this US Largesse and total one sided support they have built one of the largest standing armies in the world. They have every conceivable advanced weapon system in their burgeoning arsenal. Including WMDs. You know chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. They have also used the unflinching support and financial assistance of US to dispossess the Palestinians of their land and resources with illegal settlements. And build The Great Wall of Apartheid to the tune of $3,000,000.00 of our dollars a mile. Next consider the Palestinians under occupation. Regardless of what ever you have been told they are existing in a living hell. Like the Blacks of pre civil rights America they live in constant fear. They can been beaten mercilessly by settlers with no recourse. If they do fight back they will be killed and their families property will be bulldozed and confiscated. Just imagine a young Palestinian boy watching his mother being stoned by a gang of settler punks. If he interferes He will be hauled off to jail and beaten possibly to death. While his mom will be left bleeding in the dirt. This is not supposition it happens almost every day in the occupied West Bank.
Like the Blacks of segregated America they have to accept what ever is done to them. If they raise a hand against a settler their life is null and void.


Search your heart if you can condone this because of the one sided message you have been force feed your whole life then I would say your morality is seriously questionable.
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 09:22pm PT
"I did not mention apples on this thread".
Not yet Lois but please acknowledge your phenomenal ability to derail a thread with endless prattle.

"Is the point you are making that we get skewed information concerning Israel"?
Yes that is a point I have been endeavoring to make.

"Are you saying they are just as "wrong" as the people who vow to destroy them"?
Yes Lois that is exactly what I am saying.
But please feel free to read all posts on this thread to get yourself "up to speed".
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
LEB = LSD
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
HA HA HA HA ahh bless your heart Tami that was some of the best advise I have heard in a long time.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 2, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
If my pal FatTrad had even 1% of the political connections he claims to have, SuperTopo is the last place he'd boast about it. Those with such connections may or may not want them to be public - but the politicians very much tend to want to keep them quiet. And they try to avoid those who would do otherwise.

Influence and connections are far more powerful if private. If you boast about it, you probably don't have it.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Jan 3, 2009 - 12:49am PT
Paranoid schizophrenia is one of several types of schizophrenia, a chronic mental illness in which reality is interpreted abnormally (psychosis). The classic features of paranoid schizophrenia are having beliefs that have no basis in reality (delusions) and hearing things that aren't real (auditory hallucinations).

With paranoid schizophrenia, your ability to think and function in daily life may be better than with other types of schizophrenia. You may not have as many problems with memory, concentration or dulled emotions. Still, paranoid schizophrenia is a serious, lifelong condition that can lead to many complications, including suicidal behavior. But with effective treatment, you can manage the symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia and work toward leading a happier, healthier life.
Symptoms

Signs and symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia may include:

* Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices
* Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you or that you are being stalked by the Mossad.
* Anxiety
* Anger
* Aloofness
* Violence
* Verbal confrontations
* Patronizing manner
* Suicidal thoughts and behavior
philo

Trad climber
boulder, co.
Jan 3, 2009 - 01:05am PT
You left off...
Believing you will be Emperor of Yosemite.




And GC you, who do not know me, are likely the only one in the world who would think of attributing PS to me. Cool! Guess I have to kill myself now. What's that you say? Speak up. The voices in my head are so quiet I can't even hear them.


You cannot legitimately refute my arguments so you resort to character assassination.
How very adult of you. What do you label that delusional disorder?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Jan 3, 2009 - 01:30am PT
* Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices (?)
* Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you or that you are being stalked by the "Mossad." (DOUBLE CHECK)
* Anxiety (CHECK)
* Anger (CHECK)
* Aloofness (CHECK)
* Violence (CHECK?)
* Verbal confrontations (CHECK)
* Patronizing manner (CHECK)
* Suicidal thoughts and behavior (?)
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 3, 2009 - 01:51am PT
I know a lot of people who suffer from depression or a variety of mental challenges. Some of the finest people I know in fact.

That said, I have no knowledge that leads me to believe Philo is one of them.

But if he was, it's a particular shame that somebody like that should have the most informed and balanced posts on this subject. I've studied it from all sides and read the polemics of every axe to grind. I've already admitted, unlike some posers, that I have a tendency to be prejudiced against Islam, but it keeps getting refuted by acquaintance with actual muslims and by my desire to think in terms of justice and not just believing what I want to believe.

It certainly is uncomfortable to let "the enemy" out of the box of their demonization. It takes away the black and white and reminds us of our flaws. It's also hard to admit we support a party that does wrong.

I've seen it though, not just in big political affairs but in families where the breadwinner is a sexual abuser or a perpetrator of domestic violence. Family members just sort of deny it because they are dependent on the bread and can't handle the cognitive dissonance of supporting somebody who has gone down a dark road.

Still, it doesn't support anybody to let them do wrong. I call on Israel to stop settlements and abuse so their would be no justification for the Palestinians to seek to harm them.

Peace

Karl
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Jan 3, 2009 - 02:13am PT
Jews lived in Gaza for thousands of years but then they were killed or forced to leave. Karl, do you know why are there no Jews living in Gaza? (Hint: this happened before Israel or the settlements existed.)
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Jan 3, 2009 - 02:41am PT
40 tunnels in under 4 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Tc-B563ww
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Jan 3, 2009 - 03:15am PT
Just got to get my two cents in here.

So, WHY do some of you morons have a problem with people, whom a lot of the world has been out to exterminate for a long time, in more than one historical era, defending themselves????


Calling the Israelis scum, that's great. They are our only true ally in the region, or didn't you notice that?


I'd sure trust the jews a lot more than the arabs, in general at least, and I bet when the shyte hits the fan Israel will be on our side, while the arabs, no matter what any of em have said, will not.


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 3, 2009 - 03:26am PT
I dunno, here's some history I pulled from the net. Which ass kicking massacre by whom are you referring to, or run of the mill invasion and occupation?

""The land formerly known as Palestine."

The region formerly known as Palestine was formerly known as Israel and only renamed to Palestine by the Romans in order to offend the Jews who lived there

Jews have been continuously living there for over three thousand years

How long have Arabs or Muslims been living there? Nowhere near as long.

Half of Jewish history had already happened there by the time Mohammed even spoke his first words.

The history of the area is complex due to the many tribes and (later) nations that settled, conquered and ruled, traded there or moved through: Canaanites, Philistines, Samaritans, Nabataeans, Greeks, Romans, Muslims and Christians.

In pre-Biblical times, the area was known as the Land of Canaan and had been a collection of city-states, tributary to the Egyptian Pharoah, as attested to in the Tel-El Amarna tablets. The breakup of the Egyptian empire beginning about 1500 BC made possible the invasion of the Israelites. According to Jewish tradition, twelve tribes entered Canaan from Egypt and conquered it, led by Moses approximately 1240-1200 BC. Historical evidence from the Amarna tablets suggests that there were already 'apiru' (Hebrews) among the Canaanites in the time of Egyptian rule.

During the final years of the Late Bronze Age, the Philistines also invaded Canaan (1500 - 1200 BC). Other evidence suggests that around 1200 BC, semi-nomads from the desert fringes to the east, joined by elements from Anatolia, the Aegean, and the south, possibly including Egypt, began to settle in the hill country of Canaan. A large proportion - probably a majority of this population - were refugees from the Canaanite city states, destroyed by the Egyptians in one of their periodic invasions.

The Biblical account continues with the rise of an Israelite kingdom, first under Saul and then under David at about 1000 BC, the date of David's conquest of Jerusalem.

In 539 B.C. the Persians conquered the Babylonians. The Jewish Temple, destroyed by the Babylonians, was rebuilt (516 BC). Under Persian rule the Jewish state enjoyed considerable autonomy. Alexander the Great of Macedon, conquered the area in 333 BC His successors, the Ptolemies and Seleucids, contested for control. The attempt of the Seleucid Antiochus IV (Antiochus Epiphanes) to impose Hellenism brought a Jewish revolt under the Maccabees, who set up a new Jewish state in 142 BC The state lasted until 63 BC, when Pompey conquered the region for Rome.

At the time of Christ the Jewish state was ruled by puppet kings of the Romans, the Herods. When the Jews revolted in 66 AD, the Romans destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem (70 AD). The Bar Kokba revolt between 132 and 135 AD was also suppressed, Jericho and Bethlehem were destroyed, and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. The Roman Emperor Hadrian determined to wipe out the identity of Israel-Judah-Judea. Therefore, he took the name Palastina and imposed it on all the Land of Israel. At the same time, he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina. The Romans killed many Jews and sold many more in slavery. Some of those who survived left the devastated country (and established Jewish communities throughout the Middle East) but there was never a complete abandonment of the Land of Israel. That is, there were always Jews and Jewish communities in Palestine, though the size and conditions of those communities fluctuated greatly.

When Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity (312), he took steps to elevate the status of Jerusalem and the city became a center of Christian pilgrimage. Constantine relaxed some restrictions on Jews, but renewed the prohibition on the residence of Jews in Jerusalem, permitting them to mourn for its destruction once a year, on the ninth day of the Hebrew month of Av.

Palestine over the next few centuries generally enjoyed peace and prosperity until it was conquered in 614 AD by the Persians. It was recovered briefly by the Byzantine Romans, but fell to the Muslim Arabs under caliph Umar by the year 640. During the Umayyad rule, the importance of Palestine as a holy place for Muslims was emphasized, but little was done to develop the region economically. Few Arabs came to Palestine; the Muslim rulers ruled Christians and Jews.

In 691 the Dome of the Rock was erected on the site of the Temple of Solomon, which is claimed by Muslims to have been the halting station of Muhammad on his journey to heaven. Close to the Dome, the al Aqsa mosque was built. In 750, Palestine passed to the Abbasid caliphate, and this period was marked by unrest between factions that favored the Umayyads and those who preferred the new rulers.

In the 9th century, Palestine was conquered by the Fatimid dynasty, which had risen to power in North Africa. The Fatimids had many enemies - the Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins - and Palestine became a battlefield. Under the Fatimid caliph al Hakim (996-1021), the Christians and Jews were harshly suppressed, and many churches were destroyed. In 1099, Palestine was captured by the Crusaders, establishing the Latin Kingdom. Jews were seen by the Crusaders as infidels, as bad as the Muslim occupiers of Jerusalem, and were slaughtered by Christian soldiers along their way to liberate Jerusalem and then thousands in the city when they got there. Following the first Crusade, a Papal Bull was issued in 1119 AD to reinforce St. Augustine's earlier plea, in 427 AD, not to kill the Jews, but to allow them to wander the earth as evidence of their rejection by God.

By the time the Crusaders were defeated by Saladin at the battle of Hittin (1187), and the Latin Kingdom was ended, Palestine had become a wasteland. Mongol invaders who arrived in 1260 destroyed many of the villages. The Mamluks ended the Crusader period in 1291, but under Mamluk rule Palestine declined further. Mamluks burned and sacked towns and villages, uprooted orchards, and destroyed wells. In 1351, the Black Death was reported in Palestine and by 1500 the population had declined to barely 200,000 people. For comparison, the state of New Jersey, roughly comparable to Israel in size, had a 2001 population of about 8.5 million people and still had rural, undeveloped areas.

In 1516 the Mamluks were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. The first three centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. The discovery of sea routes to the East began to erode the importance of the Middle East to commerce. In 1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western influence continued. The Ottoman tax system was ruinous and did much to keep the land underdeveloped and the population small. When Alexander W. Kinglake crossed the Jordan in 1834-35, he used the Jordan's only bridge, a survival from Roman antiquity. Among the many European settlements established, the most significant in the long run were those of Jews, Russian Jews being the first to come (1882).

World War I led to the British expulsion of the Ottoman Turks as rulers over their province of Palestine. In the war, the Ottoman empire aligned with Germany against France and Britain. The war also gave Britain the excuse to depose the Egyptian Khedive, Abbas Hilmy, and to create a British protectorate there.

In 1920, following the defeat of the Turks, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the peace conferences after World War I, the British Mandate for Palestine was created by the League of Nations. The Mandate was international recognition for the stated purpose of "establishing in Palestine a national home for the Jewish people." Note that this is long before World War II.

The area of the Mandate was originally 118,000 square kilometers (about 45,000 square miles). In 1921, Britain took the 91,000 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate east of the Jordan River, and created Trans-Jordan (later the Arab country of Jordan) as a new Arab protectorate. Jews were barred by law from living or owning property east of the Jordan river, even though that land was over three-fourths of the original Mandate.

In 1923, Britain ceded the Golan Heights (another 1,176 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate) to the French Mandate of Syria. Jews were also barred from living there. Jewish settlers on the Golan Heights were forced to abandon their homes and relocate inside the westerb area of the British Mandate.

The total remaining area of the Mandate for Palestine, after these land deductions, was just under 26,000 square kilometers (about 10,000 square miles). The southern part of the Mandate – the desert of the Negev – was also closed by the British to Jewish settlement. The area was inhabited by 15,000 roaming Bedouins, and had no Jewish or Arab settlements in it.

The balance of the Mandate, the inhabited part of Palestine, and only the part west of the Jordan, was just 14,000 square kilometers. Jewish immigration was limited by the British from time to time, especially after the periods of Arab riots and severely restricted after 1939. At the same time, Arab immigration was not restricted or even recorded. By 1948, when the State of Israel was founded, 1.8 million people lived the western area of the Mandate, estimated to be 600,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. Following the war between the Jews and the Arabs in 1948, the inhabited areas of the 14,000 square kilometers were divided along cease-fire lines between Israel and Jordan/Egypt. 8,000 square kilometers, or 57% of the reduced area (which is only 6.7% of the original Mandate territory), became Israel. The rest of the area of western Palestine, 5,700 square kilometers of historic Judea and Samaria, was annexed by Jordan – and renamed the West Bank - while 360 square kilometers were occupied by Egypt and called the Gaza Strip.

In 1946, Britain unilaterally granted Transjordan its independence completing the action taken in 1922 when all land within the Mandate east of the Jordan was set aside for the Arabs. With Transjordan's independence, the British had partitioned Palestine and created an independent Palestine-Arab state with 77% of the original territory.

In 1947 Great Britain declared its Mandate in Palestine "unworkable" and referred the matter to the youthful UN. That body created a special committee of eleven member states to study the issues and report its recommendations. The UN Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) was the first truly independent tribunal to examine the Palestine question. UNSCOP's majority concluded that the League of Nations pledge of a Jewish national home had never been fulfilled, as Jewish immigration and land purchases had been artificially restricted by the British Mandate authorities.

The committee recommended an end to the British Mandate and the partitioning of the area. However, the partition plan was directed only at the 23% of the original Mandate that was left after the British subdivision that gave 77% to create the Arab territory of Transjordan. Of the remaining 23%, 56% was allocated to a Jewish state, 42% to an Arab state, and an international zone for the holy places in and around Jerusalem was allocated 2%.

On November 29, 1947, the U.N. General Assembly by a two-thirds vote (33 to 13 with Britain and nine others abstaining) passed Resolution 181 partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jewish community of Palestine jubilantly accepted partition despite the small size and strategic vulnerability of the proposed state. Not only were Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip not included, but also Jerusalem, most of the Galilee in the North and parts of the Negev desert in the South were excluded. The Arab national movement in Palestine, as well as all the Arab states, angrily rejected partition. They demanded the entire country for themselves and threatened to resist partition by force. Had they accepted the U.N. proposal in 1947, the independent Palestinian Arab state, covering an area much larger than the West Bank and Gaza, would have been created along with Israel. Instead, they launched a war to destroy the nascent Jewish state.

It is important to note that there was a Jewish population in Palestine continuously. Even after the Jewish state was ended by the Romans, Jewish communities continued to exist. All of the successor governments tried to eliminate the Jews at one time or another, but none succeeded as numerous accounts testify over the centuries. When the Zionists started the modern "return" to Eretz Yisrael in the 19th Century, they were joining Jews who never left.
1 year ago"

Peace

karl
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Jan 3, 2009 - 03:28am PT
LOL all these years, and fatty finally gets one right!

fatboy wrote:

"It's very easy to stop this. Have the Saudi Whahabi clerics, Pakistani madrassa's, Iranian Muallahs give up on the idea of recapturing Jerusalem, let Israel keep it's current borders and then peace would erupt. Of course this will not happen, hence.................The Clash of Civilizations. The Palestinians are merely pawns, The Saudis could easily build luxury condos for every family in Gaza in two months."


Of course those hate-filled old wretches who prey on the minds of the innocent to go to their stupid 'schools', and then wage their terror war will NEVER stop.

So we should stop them.

Oh, but wait, the Saudis support those schools, don't they?

Some friends the Sauds turn out to be.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 3, 2009 - 03:30am PT
"Calling the Israelis scum, that's great. They are our only true ally in the region, or didn't you notice that? "

I don't mind having scum for enemies. I just don't want em for friends. It's up to us to help them get straight with justice.

And don't give em such a pass. It was Israel who attacked and killed US military in 1967 on the US Liberty intentionally, and there have been a number scandals where Israel has sent spies to spy on the US government, some are still in jail here.

It's not so black and white. Remember Saddam used to be a US ally and we cheered him on during the worst period of his killing and oppression. Funny, our allies can do no wrong until we turn on em

Peace

karl
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Jan 3, 2009 - 03:37am PT
Are you really going to compare the disaster of Saddam to Israel?

NO doubt at all that the US makes HUGE and tragic mistakes around the world though. That might be the saddest part-- that after WW2 we had a chance to make things right, and we did not.

Famous quote from some US general about a banana republic strong man: "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch."

Our better dead that red foreign policy along with near total mis-comprehension of the rest of the world,has led to a lot of crap for everyone. Sad but true.
jbar

Ice climber
Russia with love.
Jan 3, 2009 - 04:09am PT
Unfortunately I don't get to spend very much time online so I just throw my 2cents in here and there.
Chris2 - Al Jazeera is the ONLY source of news for that area. Sometimes this is a good thing and sometimes it's bad. Foreign reporters are rarely allowed and for good reason. They "aquire" many of their stories. When you watch a story being manufactured or see a story run on CNN about an incident you were involved in that looks nothing like the truth then all such footage becomes suspect. How many stretchers do you see being rushed through the streets without an obvious doctor around, without seeing the body beneath the sheet. How many don't even have blood on them, etc.
The problem clearly lies with the innability of both sides to come to a compromise. I like balance. I like to see both sides of the story. Israel's side is constantly demonized. The pallestinians didn't complain when the Jews were buying up the land and turning it prosperous in the late 1800's thus bringing in bedouin workers which would later call themselves palestinian. Why didn't Jordan give the Pallestinians their own territory when they governed the west bank in the 60's??? People are too easily fooled into thinking the muslim world are all brothers who support each other. Truth is most Islamic countries watch happily as Israel attacks Hamas. An Israeli friend told me a joke many years ago. What do the Jordanians call Israel? Jordan. What do the Egyptians call Isreal? Egypt. What do the Syrians call Israel? Syria.
It's a shame Hamas was acknowledged by world leaders as a political party instead of the terrorist organization that they are. The true leaders of the Palestinian movement is Fatah. I'm sure they don't have a problem with Hamas getting their butt kicked either. We don't need another Beruit. There were peace talks and a treaty that Hamas decided not to honor. We can make them sit down and we can make them talk but what should we do when they won't play nice?
jbar

Ice climber
Russia with love.
Jan 3, 2009 - 04:15am PT
Closer to the truth.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=41388

This is not a Israeli/Palestinian conflict over land, etc. This is a political power struggle and an attempt to crush a terrorist party.
Bertrand

Trad climber
SF
Jan 3, 2009 - 04:48am PT
I saw a lot of talk earlier about civilian deaths in Gaza.

Well, there would be a lot fewer if Hamas didn't intentionally embed their military operation within civilian residential areas, schools, and markets.

When senior Hamas goon Nizar Rayyan lost his life to a rocket targeted on his house two days ago, we learned that not only had he defied typical Hamas tactics of retreating to safe bunkers during the siege, but also elected to surround himself in his home with his four wives, nine children, and numerous other followers. His human shield mentality is shared by many in the terrorist organization, as the leadership, including Rayyan called on supporters (innocent civilians) to stand upon the rooftops of buildings that would likely be military targets in Israel's operation.

When Hamas proclaimed their refusal to continue their ceasefire with Israel, they left no alternative to the course of action that resulted. And when the tragic and avoidable civilian casualties occur, the blood is entirely on Hamas's hands. These bloodthirsty idiots are killing Palestine and its cause.
Sak

Mountain climber
Jan 3, 2009 - 09:02am PT
Americans celebrate July 4 as our Independence day. We fought for our freedom and our self determination. We glorify our success and consider the struggle as heroic. I consider the Palestinians as heroes also. They fight to overthrow a military occupation. Why can't the Palestinians fight for their freedom?? At this point it's Hatfield vs.Mccoys. I blame neither side for seeking revenge. It's human nature. Someone needs to step in, draw up some borders, and create a Nation of Palestine. At this point we can hold the Palestinians (and Israelis) accountable. Peace can only come when this happens. Preconditions are imposed by politicians more interested in campaign contributions than in actually achieving peace.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 3, 2009 - 10:21am PT
"The House of Abraham... perhaps the bloodiest line of humans - ever.

They are not fit to be among people, generally speaking."


Sweet!
Dingus says we need to kill Christians, Muslims and Jews!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Jan 3, 2009 - 11:39am PT
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869407,00.html?imw=Y

Although the assault on one of the movement's most senior figures has been interpreted by Hamas as an intentional body blow — and may yet prompt a furious retaliation — Israeli officials did not characterize it as a "targeted killing." Indeed, Israeli military-intelligence sources tell TIME that Rayan was killed when he remained in his home after Israel had phoned and ordered those inside to evacuate — before striking to destroy command facilities in the house. Israel says it has used this "knock on the roof" practice of phoning warnings about strikes on the homes of Hamas leaders throughout the current campaign. Israeli officials say the campaign thus far has not significantly targeted or damaged Hamas' leadership and chain of command.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 3, 2009 - 11:40am PT
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/gaza-israel-think-2272631-hamas-president

read mark steyn for a little moral clarity
Brunosafari

Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
Jan 3, 2009 - 11:49am PT

(Overjoyed to see Dirtineye post. I was getting ready to make e mail inquirey.)

It's important to note Muslims also consider themselves "chosen," people, sons of Abraham. To be more specific, Muslims consider Ishmael the proper chosen lineage, on the premise that Jews and Christian have distorted the Scriptures.

Augustinian Christian theology emphasizes the Pauline doctrine of "adoption," by faith, into the "chosen race."

The pollutions of human nature, individually, and corporate, being the most obvious common denominator of adherants to all three identities these days. Put theologically, a weak view of the doctrine of Sin. In this case the possession of "holy-land" has taken precedent over the quest for personal holiness.

Upthread Werner mentioned the priority of individual awareness and responsibility as a starting point. I couldn't agree more.

I hope I'm not out of line to encourage all of us to respect the experience of Philo and to resist the unnecessary personal judgements.

We are all unstabe. We are humans.
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 3, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
"read mark steyn for a little moral clarity"

Mark Steyn has the moral clarity of Charles Manson.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 3, 2009 - 03:57pm PT
Interestingly both Muslims and Christians expect Jesus will be the man arriving at the end times, which many fundamentalists believe are heralded by the re-establishment of Israel.

The Israelis, ironically, don't expect Jesus at the end but many are happy to enlist the funding and support of Christian fundamentalist groups that expect all these Jewish folks will be eradicated at the end, with most burning in hell forever (so much for the Muslims being the only ones expecting Israel to disappear)

Now if Jesus were to return, he'd probably better be well armed and prepared to take charge by force, since he wasn't saying things strictly by the book the first time he was here, and would certainly be expected to quote the ancient party line upon returning (and, of course, Christians and Muslims expect different things from Jesus return)

Just food for thought. All these folks counting on their guy to be on their side in wiping out the other guys, who happened to Mr Love-Thy-Enemy.

Personally, I think this world is just plain doomed unless we can take a huge step away from violence and conflict before the bio-dna-weapons become so easy to make that any half-cocked, angry scientist could engineer armageddon in a test tube

peace

Karl

PS Fatty wrote

"DMT, Thanks for finally agreeing to my C of C premise, got Karl yesterday"

I'd hate to see what is considered "consent" on one of Fatty's dates!
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 3, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
"I'd hate to see what is considered "consent" on one of Fatty's dates!"

Ask Dick Cheney.....
Brunosafari

Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
Jan 3, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
Charming, Unc, but I don't really like the word picture!

I too got a laugh out of the Orange County "morality."

Karl is showing some restraint: Try Rev:19:11ff

Perhaps the thought of Daddy comin home to give everyone a whuppin' is what is needed. Yes, "love thy enemies," but tragically, "broad" is the path to destruction.

J Hendrix and Zimmerman said it well, "all along the watchtower."

Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Jan 3, 2009 - 06:46pm PT
The ground invasion has begun...


edit: hey... what's with the whole new thread???
Bertrand

Trad climber
SF
Jan 3, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
Bookworm, thanks for the Mark Steyn post. some interesting comments in there that needed to be made. and thoughtful remarks by readers.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/gaza-israel-think-2272631-hamas-president

by the way Scabang, it's "Nazis" not "Nazi's" let's get our grammar straight if we're trying to have intelligent conversations here.
WoodySt

Trad climber
Riverside
Jan 3, 2009 - 07:34pm PT
It is a cultural war, and it will progressively get worse until we have to face it whether we like it or not. It's going to spread and get much bloodier throughout the world as well as in the US.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 3, 2009 - 07:48pm PT
"It is a cultural war, and it will progressively get worse until we have to face it whether we like it or not"

Culture is just the excuse to kill other humans. It a turf war in this case.

And it's happening now because it's their last chance to kick ass with impunity before Obama comes into office and hopefully requests Israel honor their commitments to stop illegal settlements and squeezing off Palestinian lifelines of food, electricity and medicine. Could be too late by then.

This could even be a last minute attempt to provoke Iran or some Arab countries to attack and start a war while they still can.

Its ugly and far from the simple "Israel just wants peace within its simple borders and it will play nice" myth that we are fed in the US alone.

Peace

Karl
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Jan 3, 2009 - 09:19pm PT
How long before Iran steps in to back up their cronies? My guess is anytime after January 20th…

Is WWIII just around the corner?

C’mon… I wanna see some motherf*#kers get vaporized!!!
ahad aham

Trad climber
Jan 3, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
http://picasaweb.google.com/tigrimpa/wLVhCF?feat=directlink#
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Jan 3, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
Those photos are just awful.

This is so wrong. No matter who one believes is "right" in this battle, this is just barbarism.

WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
So

Anybody gonna do anything besides just talk?
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Jan 3, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
The person who posted those photos did more than "just talk."



What did I do? As usual, I made a point of making eye contact/smiling/assisting those around me as I went about my day today. At the post office, on the subway, as I walked the sidewalks.



"Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me."
Sir loin of leisure...

Trad climber
X
Jan 3, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
group hug...
UncleDoug

climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
Jan 4, 2009 - 12:32am PT
"C’mon… I wanna see some motherf*#kers get vaporized!!! "

I did have some serious respect for you Minerals.

No more.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Jan 4, 2009 - 02:39am PT
Nothing ever changes. Anyone interested can read about the
bloodthirsty yosemite indians and their terrorist attacks on the
gold miners. Lots of gruesome parallels can be seen with the Palestiners.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/e3059ddf-0ce6-4b3e-ba81-96095844851c/Lafayette-H.-Bunnell;-The-Discovery-of-the-Yosemite,-1851,-and-the-war-that-led-to-the-event