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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 11:35am PT
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I also lived in Israel, as you have and find your thread title an affront to millions of good people.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 27, 2008 - 11:36am PT
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I still can't understand why we support the Israeli scum. I have nothing against Jews (well, about as much as I do against any religion), but Israel as a country is a scumbag of a nation, unworthy of my tax dollars.
Somehow when I learned about apartheid in school I made the mistake of learning the concept was bad, not the name. I've yet to hear a convincing argument as to why we should be their friend. The usual retort of "They are friendlier to us thena their neighbors" does not pass the laugh test.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:11pm PT
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Chris2 Please understand that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is an affront to millions of good people. The OP may seem over the top but when comparing the tactics of the third Reich and Israel in suppressing and occupying others a parallel is not hard to make.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:18pm PT
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Here ya go Moof: there is one democracy in the middle east (unless you count the new democracy of Iraq). ONE.
As far as the OPs claim goes, the Israelis get rocketed daily. DAILY! Those rockets blow up all over the place, in fact, 2 Palestinians died 2 days ago when their rocket blew pre-launch. We wouldn't put up with that crap, ie, as#@&%es regularly and daily targeting our civilians - and they shouldn't either.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:21pm PT
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Walking through the Israeli Holocaust museum in Jerusalem and then returning to where I was living that same day and seeing an elderly man reaching for some food at the table with numbers tattooed on his arm, is testament enough for me that associating Israeli’s with Nazi's is very wrong.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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Chris2, I believe you're correct in saying that associating the Nazi party with Israeli is incorrect but I fail to see the relevance of a democracy if it kills the same number, if not more, than suicide bombers. Yes, it maybe a democracy but does that make every move a just decision which we should support financially? it makes me sick to think how much money we give them.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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the palestinians have launched over 3000 rockets into israel just this year...200 since the truce ended two weeks ago; 200 hundred rockets in two weeks--you should be praising israel's restraint...these rockets are impossible to aim/guide; hamas just points them toward israel and lets them fly with no concern for civilians--not even their own as demonstrated by the rockets that fell short this week and killed two palestinian school girls; nobody in hamas as accepted responsibility...these are not surgical military strikes with civilians dying as collateral damage; these attacks are meant to terrorize and kill civilians
all hamas has to do is stop attacking israel...note, there isn't any trouble in the west bank, which is run by fatah
by the way, there are hundreds of thousands of arabs who live in israel; they are israeli citizens; they vote; they have representation in the israeli parliament; they openly and vociferously criticize the israeli government without repercussion...so, exactly whom is israel allegedly oppressing, besides the people who continually launch rockets at them?
and how is israel like the nazis? when was the last time israel had a totalitarian government? when was the last time they launched a war of conquest? when was the last time they rounded up an entire population of people, used them as slave labor, and systematically exterminated them?
israel is the only stable democracy in the region, and they are our allies and have proven their trustworthiness...remember the gulf war when saddam was launching scud missiles into israel? we asked them to not retaliate because we felt israeli involvement would widen the war; the israelis respected our wishes despite repeated attacks
and, next to america, the israelis have the best military in the world--they're badass, and i want them on our side no matter whom we're fighting
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:42pm PT
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Comparing the Isrealis to Nazis is pretty offensive.
They have not always treated the Palestinians well, but it's a far cry from the genocidal policies of the Nazis.
And while civilian deaths suck, they pretty much have to do something, with more than 100 missles a day coming at them.
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crøtch
climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:52pm PT
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Would the US sit passively while Mexico launched hundreds of missiles over the border into San Diego?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:54pm PT
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Someone please post up a death toll, casualty list, property damage assessment for these 2000 "rockets" into Israel. Then let's compare notes. If restraint was reasonable against the very real threat of Saddam's much more accurate and destructive Scuds then why is a brutal air assault and a pending invasion a proper response to the desperate futility of the Katushka attacks? Wouldn't food and water and a little fuel for heat and hospitals make more allies tan enemies?
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:59pm PT
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to answer crotch,
no, but zionists
that live in israel would.
zionism=nazism
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:01pm PT
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would we sit by while we were "surgically" bombed? yea right. I don't think either side is correct, however the point is that we financially support Israel heavily. Can you not see the inconsistency? We should remove all financial support from Israel, they can fight their own war.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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There is no doubt that the isralies have become what was done to them. they use many of the same tactics. buldozeing homes of family members of freedom fighters etc. My cousin (also jewish) was in isreal a few years ago and she had also been to South africa in the aparthide days. she was appaled and saw little difference in the way the isralis treated the palastinians vs the way the whites treated the blacks in SA.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
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Armchair media watchers think they know so much about the world. How Europe is so much better than America, how America sux so bad, how we're helping the zionist persecute the palestinians and everyone knows thats the root of all the trouble in the middle east. Whatever! These people are snowed into believing something that isn't true. Last time I was in Tel there were more Russians than Jews anyway. These people need to go visit the left bank and see where the problems really stem from. Go watch the fake combat scenes Hamas sells to Al jazeera. No doubt there is wrong on BOTH sides and nothing will be done about it until BOTH sides are willing to sit down and come up with a real world answer. I thought the world was gonna end when ariel sharon took over but he ended up trying to give half of Israel to the Palestinians. That wasn't good enough though. Look what happened to Yasser. When he got older and decide talking was better than throwing molotov cocktails they pushed him out and called him a sympathizer.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
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Philo, Israel exercised restraint during Saddam’s Scud attacks because there was a large coalition of Arab countries lined up against Iraq along the side of Western powers.
If Israel had gotten involved in the first Iraqi war under daddy Bush the Arab nations would have been forced to drop their allegiance to the coalition.
d-know comparing Zionism to Nazism is so far off I wouldn't know where to begin to correct such a statement.
jbar Al Jazeera offers the BEST news coming out of that region.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:20pm PT
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Some terrorists in Tijuana maybe ought to shoot a few missiles randomly into LA and see how some of you feel about it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:27pm PT
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Chris2 posted
"Walking through the Israeli Holocaust museum in Jerusalem and then returning to where I was living that same day and seeing an elderly man reaching for some food at the table with numbers tattooed on his arm, is testament enough for me that associating Israeli’s with Nazi's is very wrong".
First Chris2 The Palestinians had nothing, I repeat NOTHING to do with the Holocaust of WW2. In fact they were invaluable allies to Britain and the US during WW2. Yet the displaced and occupied Palestinians are constantly getting the Holocaust rammed down their throats as a justification for the daily brutality of their occupation.
When you see the pictures of the mass round up arrests where the IDF have used sharpies to number the arms of detainees. Sure sharpies are better than tatoos right? But what is the symbolic intent of such an act. When you've been made to feel real bad the one thing you remember is how to make others feel real bad. Or how about the pictures of the Star of David scrawled on once prosperous Palestinian store fronts schedule for take over or demolition in Hebron? Sure it's not a Swastica. But in this context what is the difference? Or how about the numerous videos that show IDF soldiers and/or vigilante unsettlers using large rocks to break the arms of elderly men and women. Who's only crime was trying to harvest their crops. How about the Israeli policy of not just targeting the suspected terrorist but their entire extended family and all their possessions as well? Bring in the bulldozers these twelve houses gotta go. What you got a problem 'cause there is still women and children inside? Well don't! Remember they are either terrorists or there are terrorists hiding behind them. Now go crush some ass!
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:28pm PT
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Hawkeye, that point was just addressed earlier. You can sympathize with either side, I'm just curious why people choose one side or the other. Both sides are guilty in my view, I just don't see why we sell Israel F18s. Its just a different form of terrorism.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:30pm PT
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I think you guys have a real shot at reaching an agreement here!
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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This is about the time I bail out of these threads philo (when information starts getting repeated). Refer back to stevep post on the first page for what my response to your above post would be.
Also I have studied the existing Palestinian state, pre and post establishment of the Jewish State. I know quite well who the Palestians were helping during WW2.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:38pm PT
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If I was in a location as oppressed as the Gaza strip is today, your damn right I would use all my might to fight off the oppressor. Rockets? Sure. Rocks? Hell yeah! It would not matter if they be were operating under orders from a Fascist Dictator, or a ideal Democracy. Beat me down, and I'll fight back for what is mine (especially my basic human rights). Hamas came to power through democratic elections, does that excuse them from their actions too? No.
Knowingly and intentionally starving a group of people, mostly civilians, to get at the minority of militants among them is a horrendous tactic. Going back to the Golden rule, how would Jews in the rest of the world like it if they were rounded up from their legally owned homes, sent to refugee camps, starved of food, fuel, medicine, power, and treated like third class citizens? Oh wait, they've been their and barely lived through it. Guess they learned well from their oppressors.
Neither side is in the right. Starving a people into submission is in-human. Suicide attacks are deplorable.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:44pm PT
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"Someone please post up a death toll, casualty list, property damage assessment for these 2000 "rockets" into Israel."
That's an idiotic arguement. Since mortars and rockets fired at Israel haven't killed that many people is reason is sit and do nothing.
You think Israel is going to wait for the ovens?
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
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"Never again. Remember Masada!"
Is how many Israeli's feel.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:51pm PT
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Closer to agreement! i can feel it!
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outsideup in NM
Sport climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:53pm PT
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Scabang and co: Why on earth is this tirade being posted here? There are plenty of forums where you can discuss this very complex issue with people who are interested in getting into it (and are more informed and much more open-minded than you). I'd suggest that if you are truly interested, you try taking your debate elsewhere. Perhaps you'll learn something (though I seriously wonder if that's possible). You certainly won't change the world for the better by annoying a lot of people who prefer to separate their discussions of complex international affairs from their discussions on climbing.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Well Caught, not is all as it appears. I am actually very embarrassed as to how the Israeli's treat the Palestians. Not a "Fatrad/ bluering" follower here. Not by a long shot. I got "into this" simply because comparing their actions to Nazi Germany is ridiculous.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Hamas wanted a war; they got a war.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
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"You certainly won't change the world for the better by annoying a lot of people who prefer to separate their discussions of complex international affairs from their discussions on climbing. "
You certainly don't speak for me, but you're obviously entitled to say what you wish.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
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Let's draft up the peace agreement! We're nearly there!!
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 27, 2008 - 03:02pm PT
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Caughtinside for our UN rep.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 27, 2008 - 03:04pm PT
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how many of you old folks recall hearing about this type of stuff for what, the last 30 years at least.
i agree, no more money to anyone in the middle east unless they have oil.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
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It was sadly one of my favorite Presidents, Carter, that really messed things up in the region with the Camp David Peace Accord.
Queen Noor (from Jordan) spoke quite passionately of her husbands frustrations with this Peace treaty, that did not include all Middle Eastern States. This was something King Hussein had been working very hard on for a number of years.
I suppose at this point not too much can really be done, now that the U.S. has totally destabilized the entire region with its unwarranted attack of Iraq.
JUST DON'T COMPARE ISRAELI'S TO NAZI'S. THANK YOU
No problem with making fun of Illinois Nazi's. I hate Illinois Nazi's.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
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"Hamas wanted a war; they got a war.'
The same could be said for Israel. They go after a few by attacking the many. How would you feel if your home was bulldozed because your kid who no longer lives with you was a terrorist? Could you imagine deciding to now support the terrorist against what you saw as terrorism?
Israel needs to clean up its act and so does Palistine. The US needs to stop supporting the terrorism perpetrated by Israel.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 27, 2008 - 04:28pm PT
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The closer a person follows this conflict, which the media slants to make Israel look good, the more apartheid it looks.
Israel just killed more palestinians in one day than Palestinian rockets have killed during the WHOLE HISTORY of the conflict.
People say "all they have to do is stop launching missiles at Israel" but it's not true. Behind the scene Israel, once things get peaceful, start blockages, assassinations, and other provocations until the other side strikes back and then they use those strikes as an excuse to invade.
It's all about one thing and this was stated plainly from Ben Gurian onwards, to take the whole Levant (Greater Israel) in stages and push the Palestinians inexorably out as fast as world opinion will allow.
Both sides have plenty wrong but our support is what keeps a solution from happening. It's like we're the local judge but we won't slap the wrist of the guy in town who keeps beating his wife savagely (and she might just be a bitch but he married her when she was 10 years old against her will)
It's ugly. It's more like apartheid but the comparison with Germany can be made in that they are both using military force to clear people out for "living room"
peace
Karl
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 04:38pm PT
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Karl you most often are the voice of reason on this site, but you are wrong this time. When Israel became a state in ’48 all the surrounding Arab countries launched a full on offensive to rid the land of Jews.
Granted, there was a civil war in Palestine, in which Zionist Jews committed terrible crimes prior to statehood, but all out war was declared by their neighbors, until the U.N. stepped in.
And at the time, these neighboring Arab countries saw the Palestinians as pawns...not allowing immigration by them into their countries.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 27, 2008 - 07:56pm PT
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Your statement above is misinformed Chris. Israel declared itself a state preemptively. Of course there was a struggle. 700,000 Palestinians were forced or pressured (massacres were happening) from their homes.
Look man, there were about 20,000 Jews in all of the holy land a hundred or two hundred years ago. To go from that to a Jewish state with borders much larger than those proposed by the UN isn't some matter of innocent people with a right to the land becoming the poor victims of Palestinian terrorism. In fact, many of Jews who became leaders of the new land of Israel were terrorists who had been attacking the British there. There are many myths out there used to justify this "invasion" and "expansion" Some will try to tell you that the Jew simply bought all the Palestinians out of their lands and thus they are indian givers.
You have to really study it to get behind the smokescreen. Since when did the British own the land to give it away anyway?
It's an ugly situation and no clean party is there. Problem is, the United States acts as if the land of Israel is some sinless victim of Muslim abuse and it's not so. The Muslim world sees the Muslim side and so we have a worldwide conflict that's seriously rooted in the Israeli conflict.
That's unfortunate because it means we wind up defending injustice. It would be a lot easier to claim we were noble democrats setting the best example for the world if it wasn't obviously false to those intimate with the real situation.
Sometimes you have to tell your friends to straighten up and fly right to help them get out of the hole they are in. Indulgence of continued Israeli political pandering to the ideology and needs of illegal settlers is the root of not having a fair path to peace
peace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 27, 2008 - 08:11pm PT
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Look man, there were about 20,000 Jews in all of the holy land a hundred or two hundred years ago.
And hundreds of thousands of Jews in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, etc.
Howza bout they get their land back too?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
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Well DaftRat, the most eminent scholar of one sided history, read the truth and choke on a matza ball.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story420.html
Aren't Palestinians as responsible as their leader al-Hajj Amin Hussieni who collaborated with the Nazis during WW II?
Post Your Comment (9 comments) eMail to a friend
Return to Zionist FAQ
למאמר בעברית
Posted on August 2, 2001
Unfortunately, to the Palestinian people this question implies that they should pay the price for the collaboration of a single person with the Nazis! Although there were a minority of Palestinians who collaborated with the Nazis, a whole nation cannot pay the price for the choices of a few. It's not just that the Palestinian people (and most of the Arab countries as well) aided the allies with men and logistical support, they also ignored the call for Jihad, against the Allies, that was declared by al-Hajj Amin in April, 1941 (Righteous Victims, p. 165).
Since the Palestinian people were promised full independence in 1949, and strict limitation on Jewish immigration to Palestine, based on the 1939 White Paper, the Palestinian people had an incentive to help the Allies win the war. It should be noted that several Palestinian brigades were enlisted into the British Army, and the Palestinian resistance to the brutal British occupation almost completely ceased during and after WW II.
In general, the Palestinian people are proud of the fact that they were among the few who did not collaborate openly with Nazis. On the other hand, the peoples and governments of France, Italy, Japan, Romania, Croatia, Chechnya, Bulgaria, Switzerland, ... etc. all collaborated openly with the Nazis. Tragically, many of these peoples and governments happily pointed out their Jewish citizens to the Gestapo. So it's unfair, if not outright criminal, to exploit al-Hajj Amin's conduct in order to eternally condemn the Palestinian people as Nazis, while ignoring the choices made by most European peoples and governments who openly collaborated with the Nazis.
In that regard, it's worth noting that Josef Stalin, the Soviet premier and dictator, forcibly transferred the people of the Caucasus to Siberia as a collective punishment for their collaboration with the Nazis during WWII. However, the same people were allowed to return to their homes in 1958 when the scale of the war crime became known to Khruschev, Stalin's successor in the 1950s. If the people of the Caucasus were allowed to return to their homes under Communist rule, why can't the Palestinian refugees return to their homes under Israeli rule?
IRONICALLY, the shocking truth is that it has been proven that the Jewish Stern gang received funding and arms from the Italian Fascists to resist the British Mandate in Palestine. In fact, the Stern gang's collaboration with the Fascists and Nazis was going on while their Jewish brothers were being persecuted in Nazi concentration camps. It should also be noted that when the Americans, British, and their Arab allies were busy blocking the Desert Fox's (Erwin Rommel) advances in north Africa, the Stern gang's leader Yitzhak Shamir and the Irgun gang's leader Menachem Begin were busy ambushing British soldiers, blowing up the vital Haifa-Cairo railroad supply line, and terrorizing British and Palestinian civilians (Righteous Victims, p. 174). And when Yitzhak Shamir, Israel's future Prime Minister in the 1980s, was asked to explain their collaboration with the Fascists, he replied:
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." (One Palestine Complete , p. 464).
Since these findings have only have only JUST started to surface lately (and are kept smothered in many Jewish communities), we feel it's necessary to directly quote one of the MOST pro-Israel historians, Martin Gilbert, who wrote:
"Avraham Stern who had formed a breakaway 'Irgun in Israel' movement (also known as the Stern Gang), tried to make contact with Fascist Italy in the hope that, if Mussolini were to conquer the Middle East, he would allow a Jewish State to be set up in Palestine. When Mussolini's troops were defeated in North Africa, Stern tried to make contacts with Nazi Germany, hoping to sign a pact with Hitler which would lead to a Jewish State once Hitler had defeated Britain. After two members of the Stern's Gang had killed the Tel Aviv [British] police chief and two of his officers, Stern himself was caught and killed. His followers [chief among them Yitzhak Shamir who led the Stern Gang after Stern's death] continued on their path of terror." (Israel: A History, p. 111-112)
What makes many Palestinians and Arabs EXTREMELY ANGRY is that the memories of the Holocaust are being exploited to paint Palestinians as Nazis. Such dangerous comparison and propaganda tactics are continuously fed to many Israeli school children from inception, especially upon visiting the Holocaust museum at Yad Vashem. It should be emphasized that many life size pictures of al-Hajj Amin standing alongside Hitler are on display at Yad Vashem, just West of Jerusalem not far from DEIR YASSIN. It's hypocritical to hold Palestinians responsible for the "ill fated" choice of al-Hajj Amin, while Israelis and Jews still blind themselves to the choices some of their leaders made during WW II.
Related Links
Zionist Quotes: Bible & Holocaust Exploitation
Ze'ev Jabotinsky being PROUD of his fascist uniform
A scanned copy of the document sent by the Stern Gang asking Nazi Germany for alliance
Pres. George Bush: US should have acted on Auschwitz
Merkel: Germans ashamed over Holocaust
The Untermensch Syndrome: Israel's Moral Decay
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
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Well, well, isn't that something. We can read about the plight (since 1948) of the Palestinians. Certainly not a luxury that would be afforded to you by any US daily. Fattrad?? Tut, tut. How do you sleep at night knowing that you support Israeli genocide. "i'm sorry if any civilians were killed but...". Do me a favor - your buddy Don Rumsfeld called that "collateral damage" - do you? And don't give me the usual hogwash about suicide bombers and Katushya rockets. Who is the more cowardly murderer - the aforementioned or the pilot who drops his 500lb bomb in a populated area? As a South African jew i spent many years in Israel and i can tell you that Apartheid was child's play in comparison.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 27, 2008 - 09:22pm PT
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One should note that there's no probelm right now with Fatah on the west bank.
there are those that dream of unringing the bell of history.
Foolish?
th
Hamas' charter proclaims itself as jihadist's and mass murderers in its preamble.
The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)
18 August 1988
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah
"Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed." (Al-Imran - verses 109-111).
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
Not a whole lot of room for negotiation there.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 09:30pm PT
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Skip, What do you say about Israel's policy of bulldozing homes of family members of known terrorist?
Not the terrorist homes, but their parents, their cousins, their brothers and sisters.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 09:32pm PT
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No problem on the West Bank TGT, really. Where do you get your news from Fattrad?
Just look up Hebron for one example.
And Skipper be careful getting into a battle of wits your ammo consists of spit balls.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 27, 2008 - 09:36pm PT
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More from the charter.
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:
Article Eight:
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 09:39pm PT
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I think that it is terrible that our government can bulldoze homes for shopping malls.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 09:46pm PT
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"Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. "
Doesn't Christianity have a similar verse?
"Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it." Luke 17:33
Maybe Jesus was a Jihadist. He appears to want people to die for him.
"The one who finds his life will lose it, and the one who loses his life because of me ( Jesus) will find it." Matt 10:39
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 27, 2008 - 09:48pm PT
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Looks like some small setbacks... but I think we're really close to reconciling differences here!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
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Skip, it is such a different case. Can you not see this? The Israelis are going beyond an eye for an eye. Do you not understand how this can create even more angst and thus more support for the terrorist? Justice should be fair.
Would you consider it fair if your father decided he had had enough of our government and attacked it with bombs, and our government decided to bulldoze your house because of what your father did? How can you support that and claim it is similar to bulldozing a house to make way for a mall? It is not similar. It is revenge.
Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 27, 2008 - 09:55pm PT
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From article thirteen of the charter.
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 09:57pm PT
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Unless you are talking about the Mormon concept of "blood atonement" for just one example Skipt.
Don't you guys, who think I am as naive as Lois, ever read my climbing posts?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:00pm PT
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Skip, I know that about Christian Martyrdom. I was just pointing out that there are similar verses in both religions. For TGT to use it to mean that their religion or charter condones killing is ignorant.
Plus the verse is not about actually being a martyr. It is about giving up ones ego/carnal mind by choosing to put on the mind of Christ. Letting the ego die and putting on the mind of Christ is the way to eternal salvation.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:04pm PT
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"Going beyond the "eye for an eye."
What does this even mean?
Let me make my point clear to you.
When it comes to protecting the innocent people of Israel it is their Government's responsibility to, "Git er done."
Beyond an "eye for an eye."
What a pants load.'
............
No wonder people dont talk respectfully to you.
Bulldozing family members homes does go beyond an eye for an eye. So I suppose that you would be okay with the American government bulldozing your house if one of your family members turned to terrorism. Good to know.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:09pm PT
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This sorta' blatantly endorses killing,
It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis. Palestine contains Islamic holy sites. In it there is al- Aqsa Mosque which is bound to the great Mosque in Mecca in an inseparable bond as long as heaven and earth speak of Isra` (Mohammed's midnight journey to the seven heavens) and Mi'raj (Mohammed's ascension to the seven heavens from Jerusalem).
"The bond of one day for the sake of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it. The place of one's whip in Paradise is far better than the world and whatever there is on it. A worshipper's going and coming in the service of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it." (As related by al-Bukhari, Moslem, al-Tarmdhi and Ibn Maja).
"I swear by the holder of Mohammed's soul that I would like to invade and be killed for the sake of Allah, then invade and be killed, and then invade again and be killed." (As related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
Doesn't it?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:12pm PT
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Yes TGT, it does. So I guess we should bomb the sh#t out of them.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
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You are responsible if you do nothing to stop it. You reap what you sow. That is karma baby. Suck it up. I didn't make the rules.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:15pm PT
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Ack.. Jello was right. It is a cesspool. Wrestle with pigs.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:19pm PT
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Skip, I don't condone doing nothing. I just think that what is done should be done with wisdom. Bulldozing innocents homes is not wisdom. If you can not see this, then there is nothing left for us to discuss. We are polls apart.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:28pm PT
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How is wanting Israel to stop bulldozing the homes of family members of terrorist giving terrorist a pass? I don't give them a pass. Give them a fair trial and put them in jail.
Bulldozing the homes of family members doesn't stop terrorism.
It just makes more people angry which leads to more terrorism.
If your kid kills someone, should you also be killed?
How is that not going beyond an eye for an eye?
Do you not see this?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
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It is a fraud. It is not a war. It is a police action. The military can't stop it. Good policework and good foreign policy is the only way to put a dent in it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:31pm PT
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No one here is giving the terrorists a pass Skipt. Some of us are just not giving Israelli terrorism a pass either. The 2000 + "rocket" attacks have been virtually ineffective landing harmlessly. But what would you do under occupation? Roll over and take one? What would brave and righteous Skipt do to fight for his homeland and independence?
To fight to feed and defend your children? Against Uzis, Apaches, F16s, what would you use from your back yard to resist?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:35pm PT
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there are plenty of quotes that could be quoted to support any position. If I wanted to make Americans look like bloodthirsty maniacs, I could do so by just doing a search of past posts on Supertopo.
but just to strike a balance
Ben Gurion, (perhaps the most prominent founding father of Israel) "In a letter Chaim Weizmann sent to the Palestine-British high Commissioner while the Peel Commission was convening in 1937, he wrote:
"We Shall spread in the whole country in the course of time ..... this is only an arrangement for the next 25 to 30 years." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 62)
In 1938, Ben-Gurion made it clear of his support for the establishment of a Jewish state on parts of Palestine ONLY as an intermediary stage, he wrote:
"[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107, One Palestine Complete, p. 403)
Ben-Gurion emphasized that the acceptance of the Peel Commission would not imply static borders for the future "Jewish state". In a letter Ben-Gurion sent to his son in 1937, he wrote:
"No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. [A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning ..... Our possession is important not only for itself ... through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a [small] state .... will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country." (Righteous Victims, p. 138)"
One day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine, Menachem Begin, the commander of the Irgun and Israel's future Prime Minster between 1977-1983, proclaimed:
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever." (Iron Wall p. 25)
from
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story695.html
According to Sefer Toldot Ha-Haganah, the official history of the Haganah, it clearly stated how Palestinian villages and population should be dealt with. It stated:
"[Palestinian Arab] villages inside the Jewish state that resist 'should be destroyed .... and their inhabitants expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state.' Meanwhile, 'Palestinian residents of the urban quarters which dominate access to or egress from towns should be expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state in the event of their resistance.' " (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 178)
Israel Zangwill, who had visited Palestine in 1897 and came face-to-face with the demographic reality, stated :
"Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7- 10, and Righteous Victims, p. 140)
The actual demographics picture for Palestine in 1914 was: 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:41pm PT
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Thank You Karl Baba another tremendous post.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:44pm PT
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No Skip. I do not condone the rocket firing. I just understand that Israel's actions just make matters worse. Hopefully some day you will understand this.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
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How many houses, how many deaths Skipt? Post up some facts on all the devastation caused by Palestinian rocket attack. Death Tolls and property values. Be specific Skipt.
How do the numbers stack up Skipt? Who lost more innocent civilians and property?
Or are you content to endlessly regurgitate zionist misinformation to justify an out of all context revengeful mass destruction?
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Dec 27, 2008 - 11:03pm PT
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chris2 - valid comments! There are some things we can agree on.
I think the headlines should read as: Hammas commits suicide
by IDF. (fyi its a play on ..suicide by policeman)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 11:05pm PT
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Exactly what are you endeavoring to say Skipt? Apparently my limited intellect is impeding my ability to make sense of where you are coming from with all the twisting of word and intent you are engaged in.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 12:10am PT
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To get a clear perspective, it IS important to know the death toll on both sides. Particularly telling, since we're worried about innocent people, is the number of children killed on each side.
Question, If our country was invaded and settled by a foreign people, how would you fight back if they somehow had total military superiority of every kind? Put the shoe on the other foot.
Again, think about it. There were less than 60,000 jews in this land about a hundred years ago. How do they go from that to being the dominant rulers of the land while being the innocent victims the whole time?
At least Fatty would sort of admit that that's the ugly way power works, You lose the wars, you lose your lands. Gonna give the west back to the Indians?
Doesn't make it right to keep letting injustices happen. Didn't we kick Saddam out of Kuwait after he invaded successfully?
Peace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 28, 2008 - 12:12am PT
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Anybody hear the news about the air strikes today?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 01:34am PT
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That's BS Skip. Of course the death toll matters.
If 6-10 Israelis have been killed during the last year and that's being used to justify cutting off electricity and food to a whole population and then bombing the crap out of them, killing hundreds in just one day, then we have a inappropriate response.
Skip, just accept one principle. that of stepping into the shoes of the other. considering the golden rule. You really expect the Palestinians to be crowded into the open air prison of Gaza with all their borders blockaded and stave themselves while maintaining a polite cease fire?
If the US were to have killed 50 innocent Pakistanis going after the Taliban in Pakistan, would that justify Pakistan nuking us?
"A March 3, 2008 report issued by Amnesty International has revealed the amount of carnage that has occurred as a result of Israel’s air and artillery strikes on Gaza [1]. Over 100 Palestinians have been killed and many were children or innocent bystanders. More than 250 others (mostly civilians) were injured. Israel’s Chief of Staff (e.g. public relations goon) claimed that 90 percent of those were militants, but the UN and sources in Gaza tell a different story. Sources say that half of those killed were unarmed civilians, while Israel bombed civilian neighborhoods and at least two medical facilities—which have already suffered from shortages of supplies and a humanitarian crisis.
Nonetheless, Amnesty also criticized “militant groups” in Gaza for firing homemade rockets at Israel. Amnesty stated:
“It is high time that the leaders of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority (PA) took effective steps to prevent and punish attacks on civilians in Israel,” said Malcolm Smart, “but their failure to do so does not make it legitimate for the Israeli authorities to launch reckless air and artillery strikes which wreak such death and destruction among Palestinian civilians.
“At the same time, the Palestinian armed groups who launch frequent rocket attacks from Gaza into nearby Israeli towns not only show a callous disregard for the lives of Israeli civilians but also expose the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip to the danger of Israeli attacks.”
While this criticism is seemingly well motivated and I commend them for being concerned about the lives of all those involved, is important to remember the disproportionate amount of violence that Israel has perpetrated against Palestinian civilians. One Israeli civilian in the past several months has died in the attacks, while hundreds of Palestinians have been killed and many more wounded in a relentless barrage of aerial bombardments and periodic incursions. Palestinian territories have endured decades of an illegal and brutal military occupation that has impoverished and humiliated an entire group of people because of their ethnicity. Over the last several decades, Palestinians suffered disproportionately under the occupation, and have been unable to respond to the violence and defend themselves. Palestinian deaths outnumbered Israeli deaths by a factor of over 20 to 1 during the first intifada (1988), and the vast majority of Israeli deaths were combat troops.
Even in the early stages of the last intifada a disproportionate number of innocent Palestinians suffered. An article in the Guardian by Suzanne Goldenberg cited a report given by the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in 2001 stating that 13,296 people—many of whom are children, had been left with some form of permanent disability like loss of sight, paralysis, or severe mental disabilities [2].
In her article, Goldenberg described a “harvest of mutilation” experienced by Palestinian youngsters. Injuries were doled out by bullets from high-powered M-16s on children and teenagers that the world has all but forgotten about. Children like Hussein Na’ezi and Mahmoud Sarhan, both only 16 years old, were shot through the neck while they were running from a tank in their own neighborhood. They sustained spinal cord injuries and neither of them will ever be able to walk, or even lower themselves into a wheel chair. Imagine what the reaction would be if American or European children were not able to walk to school or play in their own back yards because of the fear that they might be killed or permanently disabled by a tank or machine gun fire from an occupying army.
One could arguer that the use of violence on the part of Palestinians is not optimal. Obviously, a building a multi-ethic society free of apartheid would be the best option. However, criticizing the Palestinians for using violence to defend their homeland (as if they were on equal footing with Israel) is counterproductive at this point."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 01:41am PT
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The thing is, we don't get the whole story here in the states. We hear about every Israeli killed but not the Palestinians. This is particularly true about the kids.
"The networks’ coverage of children’s deaths was even more skewed. In the first year of the current uprising, ABC, CBS, and NBC reported Israeli children’s deaths at 13.8, 6.4, and 12.4 times the rate of Palestinian children’s deaths. In 2004 these large differentials were also present, although they decreased in two cases, with deaths of Israeli children covered at rates 9.0, 12.8, and 9.9 times greater than the deaths of Palestinian children by ABC, CBS, and NBC, respectively. Given that in 2004 22 times more Palestinian children were killed than Israeli children, this category holds particular importance. We could find no basis on which to justify this inequality in coverage."
"In the first year of the current uprising, 28 Israeli children and at least 131 Palestinian children were killed.4 (Children are defined by international law as those who are 17 and younger.)
Thus, Palestinian children were killed at a rate 4.7 times greater than Israeli children. 825 of these Palestinian children were killed in the first three-and-a-half months of the conflict, before any Israeli children had been killed."
"Collectively, the networks reported on an average of 46 Israeli children’s deaths – 164% of the Israeli children killed – and 21 Palestinian children’s deaths – 16% of the Palestinian children killed. In other words, the networks reported on Israeli children’s deaths at a rate 10.2 times greater than Palestinian children’s deaths."
From a study reported here
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 02:42am PT
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How many of us have laughed at R. Kings plee, " can't we all just get along?" as wishful thinking that just isn't going to happen in the real world.
Why do we seem to forget this when our attention is turned to the middle east? Completely unreasonable for us to want the folks least likely to get along, to do so.
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2008 - 11:27am PT
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Ariel Sharon put it best:"a Palestinian life is not worth the fingernail of an Israeli". Thankfully that war criminal has been in a coma for the past few years. May he rot in hell.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 28, 2008 - 11:43am PT
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Keep it up Israel.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 28, 2008 - 11:56am PT
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Karl Baba said: The thing is, we don't get the whole story here in the states. We hear about every Israeli killed but not the Palestinians. This is particularly true about the kids.
...and therein lies one of the cruxes of the issue for us all - our press is not as "free" as we would like to think....however, concerning the above discourse that the Israelis kill more so are more at fault...ahhh, not fair. The Palestinians would kill plenty more if they could, and it's heading that direction as they get help, training, and supplies from places like Iran.
This has a simple fix, Israel wants the Palestinian authorities to help stop the missile firings. Yet they do nothing. Nothing at all.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 12:36pm PT
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Skip says
"Let me see, Hammas responsible for thousands upon thousands of dead innocents. Me, zero"
Prove it Skip. You wrote the Thousands upon Thousands but haven't investigated to see if there's any truth to it.
Fatty says we shouldn't consider fairness but that's the comfy talk from the side that's ahead and has superpower support. The tables may turn as the Arab world gets rich on oil while the US chokes on its economy.
Here's my beef Skip. You're obviously not up to date on the conflict in an educated way. You don't know what's really going on with both sides so you think based on the filter you've seen the surface level of new with.
I'd be all about protecting Israel if they had any integrity about what they are doing. The problem is, for decades that they have been paying lip service to peace, they are deliberately been Illegally confiscating and settling Palestinian lands and creating unlivable conditions in Palestinian territories to drive them out so they can settle "The greater Israel"
as long as that goes on, there is no "good" parties to this conflict, only bad. By asking you to put the shoe on the other foot Skip, I'm asking you to ask yourself, if half your town was settled by foreigners with no rightful claim to the land, and they instituted blockades and checkpoints, made you carry Id cards, searched you, kept you from getting work, and treated you like a dog, how would you respond?' Really?
If we are going to take the Israeli Side, I don't have a problem with that as long as we hold them to a standard of fairness and justice. Continuing with settlements in Palestinian land and building the wall on a path that makes Palestinian life unsustainable is not acceptable.
Fatty, you are wrong, if the Palestinians accept the present borders (care to let us know what they are? Where is Hebron? What about settlements within Palestine? Gonna remove them all?) how long before they are provoked or blockaded into more conflict and more confiscation?
It's a little know fact in the US that Israel has always refused to state where there borders should be. They wouldn't do so now either. There is a large powerful group in Israel that refuses to do so with continual expansion in mind.
Israel has serious long term problems. It's a Jewish state with modern demographics but Judaism is basically not a religion that seeks to convert people. That points to shrinking population while the Muslm populations continue to soar. I'm not saying anything is right or wrong in that, just that it pushes Israel to make up new ways to push Arabs out and that it's pushing to confiscate new land that it doesn't really need.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 12:49pm PT
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Skip writes
"I call for Hammas to stop sending thousands of rockets and killing innocent people in the first place which is the true position of what you are trying to achieve"
You're just being one sided Skip. Call for Israel to cease illegal settling. Call for Israel to stop shooting children with snipers while they work their own olive orchards. It's not just Hamas harrassing innocent people, Israel is far from innocent here.
When you talk about fairness in killing, you have it all twisted. I'm saying that both sides kill a small number of innocent people deliberately, and then Israel uses that as an excuse to kill large numbers of guilty and innocent people and punish whole populations.
Got any criminals in your town? What if the government used that as a excuse to bulldoze your house, cut off your food, and kill the neighbor kids?
It's happening!
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 01:58pm PT
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Skipper spun;
"Gee Karl, To imply (if not outright demand) nothing be done to protect innocent people until a "Fairness of killing" accounting procedure has been achieved is ridiculous. How far are you willing to carry on with this madness".
Skip never did Karl imply (or as you are wont to say "outright Demand" ) anything of the sort. Neither for that matter did I. We are both just presenting accurate and verifiable information about the comparative levels of death and destruction. And pointing out that it is unfair for Israel to claim self defense as a moral high ground to validate their utterly unreasonable responses. You want to try to say that the Palestinian Resistance is indiscriminately raining Hell fire and massive destruction on innocent Israellis. And this, you say, justifies anything the Israellis want to do in retaliation. This is simply not the truth. No one is trying to "give a pass" to Palestinians. Only point out the truth of their resistance. Largely ineffective and desperately futile. All of these troublesome rocket attacks combined haven't done a whole lot of death and destruction in Israel. Much less in fact than even one unsettler incursion into Palestinian lands particularly during harvest time. And those happen multiple times daily. They just don't get reported in the Western Press. In fact the average daily death toll of Palestinians and destruction of Palestinian lands and property caused by Israeli fundamentalists vastly exceeds The totals of all the rocket attacks coming from the open air internment camp that is Gaza. Does this reality "give a pass" to the horrors of some Palestinian resistance actions? No! Even though occupied peoples have a right to resist guaranteed by international law. But it does cast an appalling light on the outrageous brutality of the ILLEGAL Israelli occupation. So why do you want to "give a pass" to Israel while condemning us because in your imagination we are doing the same for Hamas. We aren't, YOU ARE. WHY? You want to babble on about Israel just being better at warfare. But in comparison what real chance did Native Americans face against the cannon and saber charges of the US cavalry? The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is a parallel situation. What we are observing is the relentless implementation of Zionist Manifest Destiny. Like the Native peoples of The Americas the Palestinians are regarded as subhuman savages who must be removed or eliminated by any and all means. And at all cost, spare no expense, particularly since we the US taxpayers are paying for it. This is NOT a fair fight in which to compare warcraft skills Skipt. Many hundreds of billions of US Taxpayer dollars have been able to guarantee that the playing field stay as unlevel as possible. This is not two equal armies of warriors met on an open level ground. To the victor go the spoils. This truly is a David and Goliath metaphor. Only this time the roles are reversed. The Palestinian Davids armed with their sling shots resisting the brutal and illegal occupation of the Israeli Goliath armed with the latest and greatest weapons of all time. This is the moral equivalent of the French and Polish Underground's resistance to the German War Machine. Though even the mere proximity of the words Israel and Nazi will get plenty of people frothing at the orifices it surprises me that they can not (more likely will not) recognize parallel patterns. There is absolutely no intent on the part of Israeli fundamentalists to allow a two state solution. There is no intent to share any of the land. All the Palestinians must leave or die, in Ben Gurion's own words "as fast as world opinion will allow".
Intent, motive, methods and tactics all parallel. Including the active vilification of the
occupied by the occupier. It doesn't much matter if you say dirty injun or kraut or jap or raghead or jew. Once you get to plugging those blanket labels into the thinking that "the only good one is a dead one" it just becomes another retelling of a bad story. The now considered heroic Poles who resisted the Nazis used many of the same tactics that all underground resistances employ. They were also vilified by the Nazis in the same way the Palestinians have been misrepresented by Israel and the Western Press. When the Nazis took reprisal action for acts of resistance they did exactly what the IDF does now. The Nazis used collective punishment almost as effectively as that which the Palestinians are made to endure.
And yet you don't care do you Skip? You have been endlessly told and thus feel like the Palestinians are the evil aggressors, the "terrorists". Since they have no right they deserve what the get right? You like millions of an earlier generation want to ignore the "rumors" of atrocities that have flittered past your hearing. "The Germans are decent people and honorable warriors there is just no way they could be that inhuman and brutal". Thus we are told to believe that all Jews are innocent victims and all Arabs particularly those dirty Palestinians are evil doers, bad people, terrorist.
So Skip please answer the following question; If you were in the same boat as the American Indians or the Occupied Poles or French or God forbid the Palestinians what would you do?
This is a multiple choice question so pick only one answer.
a: Do nothing. Capitulate.
b: Do their bidding. Collaborate.
c: Resist. By any means possible.
What kind of man are you Skipt?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 02:07pm PT
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And once again Skip YOU are the only one talking about A Fairness Test.
None of us are supporting the deaths of anyone on either side particularly children.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 02:47pm PT
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Daffty ol' boy since you missed it the first time I posted as a response to your feeling like you "shot me down" Here it is again. No BS only truth. As usual you proved nothing.
There you have Skipt insisting that he doesn't have to research any facts because he just "knows" that thousands and thousands of Jews have been killed by Gaza rockets. Which is a compete fantasy. Yet he "knows" it's true. No BS there.
Talk about a "pants load". And yet you think I offer nothing. You say that Islam, the fastest growing religion on earth, is on the brink of extinction. Really? More than a billion people on the verge of extinction? From what cause, and for what reason? Certainly not the rantings of a single artificially empowered and largely ignored Mufti. If the boogie man Grand Mufti was such a big threat why did even Simon Wiesenthal ignore him? Like you he was a propaganda tool. The fact is Judaism is the religion on the decline not Islam. Which is part of why so many of you are running and acting scared. And lying through your teeth. The truth is hard to accept sometimes. Which is why I am not surprised that you and Skip and others try so hard to discredit me. If you can't deny the message destroy the messenger.
The real question is why do you post here Jeff?
And the other question is why don't you guys read my climbing posts and threads?
Well DaftRat, most eminent scholar of one sided history, read the truth and choke on a matza ball.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story420.html
Aren't Palestinians as responsible as their leader al-Hajj Amin Hussieni who collaborated with the Nazis during WW II?
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למאמר בעברית
Posted on August 2, 2001
Unfortunately, to the Palestinian people this question implies that they should pay the price for the collaboration of a single person with the Nazis! Although there were a minority of Palestinians who collaborated with the Nazis, a whole nation cannot pay the price for the choices of a few. It's not just that the Palestinian people (and most of the Arab countries as well) aided the allies with men and logistical support, they also ignored the call for Jihad, against the Allies, that was declared by al-Hajj Amin in April, 1941 (Righteous Victims, p. 165).
Since the Palestinian people were promised full independence in 1949, and strict limitation on Jewish immigration to Palestine, based on the 1939 White Paper, the Palestinian people had an incentive to help the Allies win the war. It should be noted that several Palestinian brigades were enlisted into the British Army, and the Palestinian resistance to the brutal British occupation almost completely ceased during and after WW II.
In general, the Palestinian people are proud of the fact that they were among the few who did not collaborate openly with Nazis. On the other hand, the peoples and governments of France, Italy, Japan, Romania, Croatia, Chechnya, Bulgaria, Switzerland, ... etc. all collaborated openly with the Nazis. Tragically, many of these peoples and governments happily pointed out their Jewish citizens to the Gestapo. So it's unfair, if not outright criminal, to exploit al-Hajj Amin's conduct in order to eternally condemn the Palestinian people as Nazis, while ignoring the choices made by most European peoples and governments who openly collaborated with the Nazis.
In that regard, it's worth noting that Josef Stalin, the Soviet premier and dictator, forcibly transferred the people of the Caucasus to Siberia as a collective punishment for their collaboration with the Nazis during WWII. However, the same people were allowed to return to their homes in 1958 when the scale of the war crime became known to Khruschev, Stalin's successor in the 1950s. If the people of the Caucasus were allowed to return to their homes under Communist rule, why can't the Palestinian refugees return to their homes under Israeli rule?
IRONICALLY, the shocking truth is that it has been proven that the Jewish Stern gang received funding and arms from the Italian Fascists to resist the British Mandate in Palestine. In fact, the Stern gang's collaboration with the Fascists and Nazis was going on while their Jewish brothers were being persecuted in Nazi concentration camps. It should also be noted that when the Americans, British, and their Arab allies were busy blocking the Desert Fox's (Erwin Rommel) advances in north Africa, the Stern gang's leader Yitzhak Shamir and the Irgun gang's leader Menachem Begin were busy ambushing British soldiers, blowing up the vital Haifa-Cairo railroad supply line, and terrorizing British and Palestinian civilians (Righteous Victims, p. 174). And when Yitzhak Shamir, Israel's future Prime Minister in the 1980s, was asked to explain their collaboration with the Fascists, he replied:
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." (One Palestine Complete , p. 464).
Since these findings have only have only JUST started to surface lately (and are kept smothered in many Jewish communities), we feel it's necessary to directly quote one of the MOST pro-Israel historians, Martin Gilbert, who wrote:
"Avraham Stern who had formed a breakaway 'Irgun in Israel' movement (also known as the Stern Gang), tried to make contact with Fascist Italy in the hope that, if Mussolini were to conquer the Middle East, he would allow a Jewish State to be set up in Palestine. When Mussolini's troops were defeated in North Africa, Stern tried to make contacts with Nazi Germany, hoping to sign a pact with Hitler which would lead to a Jewish State once Hitler had defeated Britain. After two members of the Stern's Gang had killed the Tel Aviv [British] police chief and two of his officers, Stern himself was caught and killed. His followers [chief among them Yitzhak Shamir who led the Stern Gang after Stern's death] continued on their path of terror." (Israel: A History, p. 111-112)
What makes many Palestinians and Arabs EXTREMELY ANGRY is that the memories of the Holocaust are being exploited to paint Palestinians as Nazis. Such dangerous comparison and propaganda tactics are continuously fed to many Israeli school children from inception, especially upon visiting the Holocaust museum at Yad Vashem. It should be emphasized that many life size pictures of al-Hajj Amin standing alongside Hitler are on display at Yad Vashem, just West of Jerusalem not far from DEIR YASSIN. It's hypocritical to hold Palestinians responsible for the "ill fated" choice of al-Hajj Amin, while Israelis and Jews still blind themselves to the choices some of their leaders made during WW II.
Related Links
Zionist Quotes: Bible & Holocaust Exploitation
Ze'ev Jabotinsky being PROUD of his fascist uniform
A scanned copy of the document sent by the Stern Gang asking Nazi Germany for alliance
Pres. George Bush: US should have acted on Auschwitz
Merkel: Germans ashamed over Holocaust
The Untermensch Syndrome: Israel's Moral Decay
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Fatty, if you must bring up WW2, the Israelis collaborated with Mussolini no?
skip wrote
"Karl, you continue to offer up arguments that are foolish.
I will stand by my "thousands upon thousands" of dead innocents at the hand of Hammas. "
You are the one being foolish.
First, do you know the origins of Hamas? Much like Al Queda was founded with US support to foil the Soviets in Afghanistan, Hamas is said to be the stepchild of the Mossad to foil Arafat.
"According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
Hamas is a creation of Mossad. Mossad is like the Central Intelligence Agency of Israel, for those of you not so well informed.
Mossad allowed Hamas, an extremist political organization, to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. At the same time, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah party, which was a modern non-violent and secular movement, was repressed and subjugated.
It is ironic that Israel created its most potent and threatening enemy by its own hands."
Hamas was created in 1987
"Hamas officials have stated several times that they are willing to stop attacks on Israeli civilian targets if Israel stops attacking Palestinian civilian targets in return.[122] In May 2003, Abdel Aziz Rantisi has said,
"The Hamas movement is prepared to stop terror against Israeli civilians if Israel stops killing Palestinian civilians ... We have told (Palestinian Authority Prime Minister) Abu Mazen in our meetings that there is an opportunity to stop targeting Israeli civilians if the Israelis stop assassinations and raids and stop brutalizing Palestinian civilians."[123]
Hamas has been responsible for launching suicide attacks against Israeli civilians; the group sees the attacks as the main element of its asymmetric warfare against Israel.
Hamas' first use of suicide bombing occurred on April 16, 1993 when a suicide bomber driving an explosive-laden van detonated between two buses parked at a restaurant. It was Hamas' 19th known attack since 1989 (the others being shootings, kidnappings and knife attacks)"
Above and below From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
"Overall, from November 2000 to April 2004, 377 Israeli citizens and soldiers were killed and 2,076 wounded in 425 attacks by Hamas.[125] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs maintains a comprehensive list of Hamas attacks"
so Let's see, during the most violent period of Hamas killing, they killed 377 Israeli citizens and Soldiers. (not all innocents if you acknowledge there is a war) That's about as many Palestinian citizens and Soldiers that have been killed in the past few days by Israel. The most deadly day of Hamas killing in history killed 30 Israelis, and, since they didn't start suicide bombing until 1991, they got off to a slow start.
So they couldn't have "Killed" thousands and thousands. Even 'One thousand" may be a stretch.
But you don't care about facts it seems and I wonder if you are even reading these posts. You just believe what you want to believe because you harbor a prejudice against Islam.
Guess what. I do too. I'm friends with Jews, I have had serious Jewish girlfriends, I've lived in Jewish households and worked in a Jewish Business delivering to Yeshiva's and Jewish retreats. I have little in common with the Palestinians.
Still, as a human, it's my duty to call this honestly. Israel has a duty to quit stoking the fire as "world opinion allows" to force these people out
peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 03:00pm PT
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I hope I'm done posting on this thread. Rather do something productive with my time besides doing research for folks to don't read it and believe what they want to believe and state the exact opposite of documented facts.
At least read Philo's post above regarding who supported the Nazi more
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
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Are you refuting the info Philo posted above fatty or just ignoring it for the second time?
peace
karl
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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Karl - don't need to remind you nothing is 'illegal' when you have a badge and a government to back you up.
...that patch of dirt is ours now...see it says so on this
official piece of paper!
Everyone who can does it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
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My vote is he is ignoring it for a second time. It doesn't fit into the AIPAC talking points for the day.
Daffty the earlier Mufti was an honorable man who many including indigenous Jews looked up to. But his role was largely ceremonial and superfluous. The "Grand" Mufti that you are so fond of as the archetypical Palestinian was largely ignored and mostly reviled by the Palestinians. The Office of "GRAND" Mufti was an artifice created by the British in hopes of rallying the Arabs to the allied cause in spite of the recent brutal british occupation. As usually happens when colonial powers try to seat a strongman puppet it backfired.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 28, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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"He also stood by while Hammas killed Palestinians and said nothing."
Baloney. You don't know Philo. You have no idea what he has done or hasn't done. How may times must we tell you that we decry what Hamas has done before you accept this?
What Israel has done has gone into the area of vengeance. They are no longer simply protecting themselves. Did you give up on Jesus' teachings? It certainly appears that you have. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.
What Karl is trying to teach you is to look at both sides of the equation. Fatty would have you believe that it is simply a matter of hamas stopping sending rockets and then Israel would act all nice. Nothing is further from the truth. Perhaps if you tried to put yourself in the Palistinians shoes, you would understand this.
but you wont because your ego is involved. Oh well.
Karl and Jello are correct. You don't want to know, so there is no further point in trying to talk to you.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 04:03pm PT
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Hamas itself is multifaceted.
They actually won real democratic elections because their charitable arm was well regarded for strict rectitude and lack of corruption. Sadly, the more secular and more moderate Palestinian Authority is also rife with corruption. The people voted for who they thought really cared about them.
They are also terrorists.
The original leaders of Israel were also terrorist. They killed British.
Wake up. All the hands are dirty. It's better to stand up for justice on all sides than pick a dirty side and let em act dirty
If you know so much Skip, why did you stand by "Thousands and Thousands" when it coudn't possibly be true?
peace
karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
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"Wake up. All the hands are dirty. It's better to stand up for justice on all sides than pick a dirty side and let em act dirty".
Well said Karl my sentiments exactly.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 28, 2008 - 04:13pm PT
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I'm with Karl too.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Dec 28, 2008 - 04:16pm PT
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im not with anyone at the moment, but I think the Nazi card gets thrown down WAYYYY too often. Nonsense.
Its very fair to say neither side is "lily white" in terms of wrongs committed. Human nature being what it is, one side will have to "win" for any closure to result or else there will constantly be this back and forth fighting.
As I see it, if Israel "wins" it would not be without the death of innocents but the end result would not be extermination and death camps and the like. I'd rather see the Israelis win than Hamas. Winning is never without cost. Arguing about who will win more cleanly is utter nonsense.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
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Skipper you are sounding like the kid on the playground saying... "Oh yeah, well my dad can beat up your dad".
And nothing you are saying bears the slightest semblance to what people are actually saying. And yet you persist on misrepresenting. You seem desperate. Take a time out. We and the truth will still be here for you.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 28, 2008 - 05:35pm PT
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Damn Skip, did you take the time to type that out? It doesn't look like a "cut and paste."
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:01pm PT
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Skip, I understand that you do not condone torture. The point is that you voted for George Bush who does support torture, and if you want to avoid reaping the consequences of your actions, then you needed to do something about it. At the very least you could have written your representatives and told them that you do not support torture. Assuming that they know your mind like Lois assumes is a mistake. You will eventually reap what you sow. I was trying to help you avoid that.
Isn't that no different then your demand that the palistinian people do something about their leadership?
The difference between what I believe and how the Isrealis act is that I don't think that you should be tortured just because you support George Bush. Nor do I think the Palistinians should be deprived of water because they voted for Hamas or that their homes should be demolished because one of their children fights back against Israel. These are acts of vengeance and do nothing to solve the problems.
An act of vengeance does nothing to solve an act of vengeance.
I could sit here all day and call you a moron. Say that you are full of sh#t. Go on and on about what an idiot you are, but this would solve nothing.
So I am trying to learn from my mistakes and the actions of others and not repeat these mistakes over and over again.
If you will not learn from me, then heed the words of Jesus.
Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.
Love you enemies as yourself.
Of course you must learn to love yourself before you will have much success at loving others. This is the area that I struggle with.
I don't think that you are a moron. I think that you have hardened your heart to the plight of the Palistinians and thus you find it too difficult to see their side.
No one has asked you to take their side blindly, we have simply asked you to see that Israel is not innocent in their actions. The only hope for peace is for both sides to see that they are doing bad things. Until that time, there is not hope for peace.
I have insulted you in the past. For this I have apologized and do continue to apologize. But at some point you have to accept the apology and stop flinging the past in my face.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:04pm PT
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The Israelis at least TRY to avoid civilian casualities instead of sending nail-bombs into restaurants and night clubs.
Militants often operate against Israel from civilian areas, and that has led to steep civilian casualties in the past when Israel has retaliated. Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language voice mails on their cell phones from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473145,00.html
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
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Right on cue Bluering with more diatribe and propaganda.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:38pm PT
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philo, how many times will these people have to declare Intifadas against Israel before they learn they will lose and probably lose civilians too due to 'lions of Islam' hiding next to civilian buildings?
How many times? Until Israel surrenders and lets more nail-bombs into their borders? Should they show compassion again and be nail-bombed?
No more! The people of Palestine need to seek peaceful leaders, not anti-semites and 'monkey-haters'.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:47pm PT
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I am not sure what "monkey haters" is intended to imply but you do realize that the Palestinians are also people of Semitic heritage? Don't you?
When will you get past the notion that Israel is exempt from condemnation for it's actions? Or that the Palestinians are fighting just because they are blood thirsty savages? Or that they have no just cause. Or that everything would be perfect if they just stopped and played nice because then Israel would play nice too. How long can you not pay attention?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
Mercy Blue, the same could be said for Israel.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:51pm PT
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Yes, I do, philo, but only Hamas refers to Jews as the children of monkeys. Remeber Hamas Mickey mouse?
How do they make that correlation if they're both Semitic people? Must be anti-semitism directly only at religious Jews. Sounds racist to me, at least bigoted. No?
Most of the people there get along, so why so much conflict? What is the source of this hatred in your opinion?
Edit: I know this sh#t is complex, John, that's why ya gotta watch it carefully.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 07:11pm PT
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"Yes, I do, philo, but only Hamas refers to Jews as the children of monkeys".
Oh come on Blue did you miss all the quotes by leading Israelis that I posted that called the Palestinians all manner of animals unfit to exist? It's a two way street of thoughtless hate and violence.
"Most of the people there get along, so why so much conflict? What is the source of this hatred in your opinion"?
Since you asked please listen with an open mind. The conflict is the result of the Zionist movement's undeniable intent to create a modern theocracy consisting solely of Jews through out the whole of what they refer to as "Greater Israel". Only problem is the land already belonged to someone else, the Palestinians. Who have been forcible evicted from their land and homes and forced to live in oppressive, humiliating and brutal occupation ever since. While being the greater victims here the Palestinians have been systematically vilified to the point where any American incapable of free thought has been convinced that all Palestinians are Anti-Semitic Terrorists.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 07:15pm PT
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Now stop all this nonsense and go read my Black Canyon & Red Rock climbing threads.
Then you can tell me how ignorant and illiterate I am on those threads as well.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
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Maybe, philo, but the Islamists (not the Zionists) seem to be the more intolerant and unreasonable based on what I've seen fron that region.
Seems the Zionists are less likely to nail-bomb discos and send handicapped children laden with bombs into checkpoints.
Iran, and to a lesser extent, Syria, is the true wicked entity here. The Paleos and Lebanese would do themselves a favor by disassociating themselves from them.
Iran is the key...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
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Skip declares those rockets a war crime, and perhaps they are, even though they kill few to none.
How about the same treatment for Israels unnecessary use of cluster bombs in Lebanon (invaded after 2 or 3 soldiers were captured) that the UN condemned and which were used around civilians and which continue to kill more kids than the sum total of all Palestinian terrorism.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5299938.stm
"The UN's humanitarian chief has accused Israel of "completely immoral" use of cluster bombs in Lebanon.
UN clearance experts had so far found 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets at 359 separate sites, Jan Egeland said."
"What's shocking and completely immoral is: 90% of the cluster bomb strikes occurred in the last 72 hours of the conflict, when we knew there would be a resolution," he said.
Each of those bomblets are more dangerous than a rocket and continue to regularly kill civilian children
Lots of great people in Israel and many of them are more critical of their own country than the folks on this thread who see black and white where it doesn't exist.
Peace
karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
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"Maybe, philo, but the Islamists (not the Zionists) seem to be the more intolerant and unreasonable based on what I've seen fron that region".
That is because you have not seen what really goes on in the occupied territories on a daily basis.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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That is because you have not seen what really goes on in the occupied territories on a daily basis.
Same old tired bullsh#t. This is all I hear from people like you. The Israelis didn't break the ceasefire by rocket attacks, nor did they start the 2006 campaign in Lebanon and Gaza. IT'S ALWAYS THOSE POOR PALESTINIANS THAT START UP THE SH#T!!! I, like Israel, am tired of brokered peace that always fails because Hamas and Fatah leaders only want blood and power. They will be removed one way or another.
Then the Palestinians may have peace (as long as though they don't vote for Iran-influenced gov't).
Again, Iran is the problem. Iran may attacked very soon.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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"Same old tired bullsh#t. This is all I hear from people like you. The Israelis didn't break the ceasefire by rocket attacks"
No they broke it by daily violence against the Palestinians in the illegally occupied territories. The number of Palestinian citizens (mostly women and children) who have died at the hands of Israelis during the ceasefire vastly outnumbers the number of Israeli dead from all rocket attacks combined.
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Lafta
climber
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Dec 28, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
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Hamas was *established* by Israel.
This latest incident is all part of their plan.
That being...the eventual new world order.
Again, if world leaders speak of a new world order, do you not think it will someday be?
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=complete+idiot%27s+guide+to+the+NWO&hl=en&emb=0&aq=1#
Go on! Click the link! Or does that of which I speak, scare you?
I remember long ago speaking of a common currency for Europe and those hearing this would say---no way, never.
Well it's here. Why would you deny this could ever happen in North America?
They gave us this culture of cosumerism.
Now they are changing it to earth worship.
Obama will change nothing. Look to more war.
Do you recall,during his campaign saying he was against NAFTA?
Funny is it not, he has since reneged?
The Iraq war costs 250 million a day. Where do you think this money is coming from?
You are being programed/modified.
Not only that, we're being sterilized. So keep on eating those soy products. Rolling eyes icon.
Wake up!
http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 08:22pm PT
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"No they broke it by daily violence against the Palestinians in the illegally occupied territories."
This is where we disagree, philo. Israelis don't launch random missiles daily, they just subject the poor Paleo to checkpoints. The have roadblocks for a reason. The paleos didn't bring it on, Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and the Pop Front brought this to the people of Palestine, NOT ISRAEL. ISRAEL JUST FIGHTS BACK!
Hopefully this time Israel eliminates Hamas once and for all. IJ is already kinda marginal. Maybe Fatah can do better in power with Hamas removed.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 28, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
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You are misinformed blue.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 08:27pm PT
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Lafta, what is a good course of action to take against the NWO?
Do you have any ideas to offer, beacuse you come off like a complete conspiracy quack otherwise? Everyone knows about the Illuminati, Free Masons, and the Bildeburgers.
WTF do you suggest?
Stop with the indirect quackery and f*#king propose something!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 08:37pm PT
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"You are misinformed blue."
Am I really? Look at the facts and re-evaulate that.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Dec 28, 2008 - 08:50pm PT
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"Go Israel!"
Juan
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 28, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
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I have looked at the fact Blue. You ignore anything that paints Israel in a bad light.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 28, 2008 - 09:09pm PT
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How many videos of Israelis bulldozing houses will you need to see?
How many stories of Israeli snipers shooting kids will you need to hear?
How many stories of Israeli settlers beating up Palistinians will you need to hear?
How many times will you need to hear that Israel was created by stealing Palistinian lands
Before you realize that the Israelis ARE NOT INNOCENT.
Or course, Neither are the Palistinians. I KNOW THIS. PHILO KNOWS THIS. KARL KNOWS THIS. When will you get it through your thick skull.
VENGEANCE DOES NOT WORK.
It doesn't work for the Palistinians and it doesn't work for the Israelis.
Who shot first? WHO THE HECK KNOWS?
But hey, according to you, all the Palistinians need to do is stop firing rockets.
Bullsh#t.
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2008 - 09:46pm PT
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Fattrad - i assume by your name that you haven't a snowballs hope in Hell of getting up 10.96. That said and the niceties over you are a prick/wanker/tosser of the highest order. AIPAC. ADL. I think a separate thread is warranted here as these two Nazi organizations are the reason for genocide in the West Bank & Gaza. Settlers? Nuke 'em all the despicable occupying, thieving BASTARDS!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 11:08pm PT
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"Now, the one during WWII could have done more and the ones during the the Christian conquests should have done much less.
"
Fatty's just being politic. The Catholic church and pope in particular gave into the Nazis during WW2 more than any Palestinians. Course they had more power to do so.
Just the way it was
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
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Every religion has elements with blood on it's hands. Catholicism has the crusades, inquisition, and collaboration with Nazi. Hinduism has violence during partition. Or course Islam has got a long list of issues.
I'm not judging bro. We're humans and the Pope is not infallible.
Peace
karl
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:54am PT
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Much of my mother's family lived in Lebanon, until it was torn apart by civil war that was an outgrowth of the Arab-Israeli conflict, in which I hold the Israeli government as responsible as the Palestinians. I still have one first cousin in Beirut. I have no reason to support Israel, but the incivility of the anti-Israeli comments on this thread sickens me.
Of course there are two sides to this story, and I have often had more sympathy for the Palestinians than for the Israeli government (and sometimes, sad to say, its people) on many issues, but Israel was established by the world community, given the right to exist, threatened violently by its neighbors (except, of course, Lebanon!), and attacked with illegal deadly force continually.
In that circumstance, your calling the Israelis Nazis because they fight back, scabang, and your vitriolic, hate-mongering words I can only hold in contempt. Your comments aren't designed to foster debate; they only betray a seething, tormented, mind incapable of tolerating those with whom you disagree. That's rather like what you accuse the Israelis of doing.
Cut it out!
John
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Dec 29, 2008 - 02:34am PT
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Laser Guided Bombs made in America, F-16 Fighting Falcons.
AH-64, Helfire.
Like it has been said before - Palestinians are just pawns.
Keep up the good work Isreal.
God Bless and protect the Jews.
Juan
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:22am PT
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For those who need a refresh map of where the dumbest peeps on earth reside:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/gaza_strip_may_2005.jpg
got to wonder if their DNA is warped. The Gaza is the best real estate on the globe and hamas has made it a ghetto. Not my choice
or anyone else's for a vacation. Idiots could be pulling in billions just like Hawaii or Cancun.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 06:45am PT
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Skip
Sorry you're getting upset with me. Your upset is keeping you from seeing what's really being said in this thread. You've been ascribing statements and attitudes to me and others that are in your head, not ours.
and I"m not against Christianity either. I don't consider myself less of a Christain than you although your beliefs might judge otherwise.
Just stating some facts. Care to dispute them. What was the pope interaction with the Nazis in the war? Maybe I heard wrong.
a whole lot of Religions have been party to a whole lot of killing and that includes Islam, Christianity, and in this case, even Judaism as well. I'd like to see it stop on all sides. In any case, you know what Jesus said, It's easy to see the speck in everybody else's eye but easy to ignore the log in our own.
Peace
karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:16am PT
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"This is where we disagree, philo. Israelis don't launch random missiles daily, they just subject the poor Paleo to checkpoints. The have roadblocks for a reason. The paleos didn't bring it on, Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and the Pop Front brought this to the people of Palestine, NOT ISRAEL. ISRAEL JUST FIGHTS BACK!
Blue you make it sound like the only struggle the Palestinians have is the inconvenience of check points. As if those check points were the equivalent of a road side sobriety test. Or at worst getting through airport security. This is far from the truth. Traveling around the territories is much harder than traveling behind the iron curtain through communist East Europe was. There are many places deep in the territories that have NO connection to Israel or Israeli security that are an nearly un passable obstacle course for children just trying to get to school, Men just trying to harvest their ancestral crops and women in labor trying to get to the hospital.
If my south Boulder home were in these areas I would have to get through at least three check points Just trying to get to Neptunes for a carabiner or the Southern sun for a beer. I would be obligated to wait hours at each check point. And mind you I live only a mile away. At each of those checkpoints I would be subjected to strip and cavity searches, harassment and humiliation. If I grumble I would be pulled aside for further interrogation. If I complain I will be beaten severely and likely jailed without cause or charges. Dammit I only wanted to get a new ATC and a brew! It would take me the better part of a day to travel that single mile. Now for the return trip....
You see Blue you have been sold a load of lies and misinterpretations. We in the west have been continuously sauteed in a one sided story line. You have been convinced that everything in Israel is perfect and peachy except those damn Palestinians causing all the trouble. You seem to believe if they just shut up and went away everything would be wonderful. But where would they go? This is their land, these are their homes. And I am currently only talking about Palestinian territory not Israel. The atrocity of jewish treatment of Palestinians that I am referring to takes place on Palestinian land not Jewish land. Sure the Israelis don't fire crude rockets on a daily basis. They don't need to they have all the advanced weaponry of the modern world at their disposal. Who needs quassams when you have predator drones. No the Israelis don't fire rockets daily. Instead they use Apache gun ships and tanks. They practice "targeted assassinations" and claim "collateral damage" when dozens of innocents die just to snuff one "bad guy". Then they accuse the "bad guy" of hiding behind civilians in residential areas. But have you ever been to Gaza or seen pictures? The whole place is one giant immensely crowded residential area. There is no room for separate and dedicated military bases. This is urban warfare like Warsaw or Moscow in WW2. No one but the Germans complained about the freedom fighters operating out of civilian areas. There was (and is) NO where else to fight from.
But Blue what I am specifically referring to when I reference Daily violence against Palestinians is the acts of the illegal settlers on stolen Palestinian lands. The death toll and cost of destruction that occurs on a daily basis in these areas makes the damage done by Gaza rocket attacks pale to near insignificance. Which is vastly different than saying I approve of these acts. I may "understand" but I don't condone. I don't condone the violence on either side. But you really owe it to yourself to find out more about the reality of daily life on the ground for Palestinians. But please don't simply take Fattrad's word. If you want I can provide a list of quality documentaries that verifiably present the truth about the situation on the ground.
And by the way I find the use of "Paleos" to be derogatory and offensive.
"Hopefully this time Israel eliminates Hamas once and for all. IJ is already kinda marginal. Maybe Fatah can do better in power with Hamas removed".
Funny thing is Blue Israel created Hamas to be a counter force to Fatah authority. Now there was a brilliant plan eh? It makes you think that tactical genius Donny Rumsfeld thought it up all by himself.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:56am PT
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Hawkeye That is absurd on so many levels and in no way a realistic comparison.
First the Gaza rockets if fired from Mexico would, as most in Israel do, fall harmlessly to open ground. They don't have much range and little explosive charge.
Numerous variants of the Qassam rocket have been developed and launched. The Qassam-1, first used in October 2001, had a maximum range of approximately 3-4.5km. The rocket was approximately 60mm in diameter and weighed about 5.5kg. The Qassam-2, used primarily from 2002-2005 was approximately 180cm long, had a maximum range of 8-9.5km and could carry a payload of 5-9kg. Beginning in 2005, newer types of Qassam rockets known as the Qassam-3 were developed, possessing a maximum range of 10-12km and carrying a payload of 10-20kg.
A total of about 450 Qassam rocket attacks were launched against Israel over the two years 2003 and 2004.
These glorified Estes rockets wouldn't make it from one side of LA to the other.
Second we are not occupying, subjugating, brutalizing and terrorizing the Mexicans. What pretext would they have to attack us with rockets? It was an absurd comparison. That's how I like it.
Now go read my Black Canyon or Red Rock stories.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:15am PT
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Nice response Skippy. Intelligent, thoughtful and reasoned. All the things we have come to expect from you boy. Did you think it up all on your own or did mommy help you? It's either that or your surrogate yarmulke is a little too tight.
How does it go? Let me think. Oh yeah, BWAHAHAHA.
Oh and little Skipper for your information my wife just returned from three weeks in Palestine and Israel. She was on an international peace delegation. Part of their mission was to protect Palestinians from the violence and aggression of the illegal unsettlers. Do you want to see her slides or is the truth too much for you to handle?
So when are you going to put your limited funds where your prodigious pie hole is?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:24am PT
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Whew what's that smell?
Oh never mind it's just Little Skippy frothing at the orifice again.
Skip to the loo your full of poo.
Hey since you guys get all frothed like a latte if anyone dares mention Israel and Nazis in the same sentence how about a new term. A term to counter the racist and derogatory use of the term Islamofacists that they love to bandy about. How about the term Nazraelis to describe the hard corp religious fundamentalists of the Zionist movement? Yeah, Nazraelis, I like it. How about you Skippypoo?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:39am PT
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I came up with an idea that actually could go very far in achieving rehabilitation between the peoples of Isreal and Palestine and those of the same who live elsewhere.
It's called PaleSrael Anon. A 12-Step program for those who have been affected.
* Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over the conflict and that our lives had become unmanageable
* Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
* Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God
* Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
* Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
* Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
* Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings
* Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all
* Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
* Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
* Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out
* Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others suffering, and to practice these principles in all our affairs
Of course - it's not for those who NEED help, but those who WANT it. There are many,many people who are sick and tired of living through that conflict. They want OFF. Like addict parents, the governments have shown themselves incapable of change for SO long that anyone with a clue can see it only ends in death and destruction.
Modeled after the original AA program, it's pretty simple. One shares their experience, strength and hope with another sufferer. Two Israelis can start a meeting with each other and bring other Israelis. The same with two Palestinians. Men's groups. Women's groups. Children's groups! Before long(a generation? Two? LESS???!!!) they will see Israelis and Palestinians able to share ONE meeting and the lives that go with it outside those rooms.
This is actually a serious idea, and I only wish I knew how to better get the word out to people who might be interested to try it. Those with any connection to people over there - won't you help carry the message and pass this post along? It only takes TWO people, willing to share with each other, to light this candle than can bring peace from within.
It CAN work.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:43am PT
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Why Skipper? Karl and Dingus and others are making rational, reasonable well presented points. You are just pissing yourself. Grow up boy!
As usual you never answered a question presented to you. So I will post it again.
So Skip please answer the following question; If you were in the same boat as the American Indians or the Occupied Poles or French or God forbid the Palestinians what would you do?
This is a multiple choice question so pick only one answer.
a: Do nothing. Capitulate.
b: Do their bidding. Collaborate.
c: Resist. By any means possible.
What kind of man are you Skipt?
We are all waiting to see what kind of man you are Skip.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:46am PT
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Happiegirl you might be surprised to know that compassionate listening circles between Israelis and Palestinians are occurring every day. The are powerful transformative processes that actually stand a chance at promoting peace. If you want more info my wife, who just returned from there could fill you in.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:53am PT
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Allright Skip now that was funny. Good for you a sense of humor after all.
But why won't you answer a simple hypothetical question?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:05am PT
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Maybe third time is the charm.
So Skip please answer the following question; If you were in the same boat as the American Indians or the Occupied Poles or French or God forbid the Palestinians what would you do?
This is a multiple choice question so pick only one answer.
a: Do nothing. Capitulate.
b: Do their bidding. Collaborate.
c: Resist. By any means possible.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:08am PT
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You start.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:19am PT
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Should the Tibetans just "learn to get along" with the Chinese occupiers?
Did The Jews of the Warsaw ghetto just "learn to get along" with the Nazis?
Did the Negroes of the American south just "learn to get along" with the slave owners?
Please spend a little time reading about the conditions of occupation and tell me honestly if, you were in their shoes, could just "learn to get along".
Because Skip I don't think you could just "learn to get along". Based on your passionate defense of your beliefs I think it likely that you would be a tremendously effective "freedom fighter". In fact I would go so far as to say you would likely be on the occupiers "most wanted" list.
Or would you just roll over and take it up the a$$?
"Please sir may I have some more".
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:35am PT
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Philo wrote: "Happiegirl you might be surprised to know that compassionate listening circles between Israelis and Palestinians are occurring every day. The are powerful transformative processes that actually stand a chance at promoting peace. If you want more info my wife, who just returned from there could fill you in."
That is wonderful to know. More power to them.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:00am PT
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"I'm pretty sure American Indians are still around as well as the Tibetans.
Who knows maybe those guys were just funing with me when I lived o the Navajo Nation.
And, wasn't the Dali Lama in the White house a few weeks ago?"
You are making quite an argument against a "Jewish homeland" there skippy.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:09am PT
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You aren't much good with answers are you Skip?
Because this; "And which one of these groups fired off rockets into unrelated, innocent civilian homes". isn't much of an answer.
And this; "And which one of these groups fired off rockets into unrelated, innocent civilian homes". only goes to illustrate the fact that the answer to the question for some Palestinians is C. To fight back with any means possible.
And given all that has actually occurred on the ground, this part "into unrelated, innocent civilian homes", is a moot point.
You are dodging and obfuscating Skip. I don't believe you can answer the question because it would expose a fundamental dilemma of beliefs.
You can't answer for the same reason Israel won't declare definitive borders. They can't because there are no definitive borders. All the land is theirs forever. That is what they cling to.
You can't answer for the same motivation that keeps the "Only Democracy in the Middle East" from ratifying a constitution. Isn't sixty years sufficient time for a so called democracy to ratify their constitution? They won't because there would have to be provisions for non Jewish indigenous peoples. The can't because their is no provision for non Jewish indigenous peoples. They have no intent to have any non Jews in Greater Israel. All arabs must go! Initially the predominately radical Zionist founders of the state of Israel thought it would only take 30 years for world opinion to allow them to eradicate the land of Arab inhabitants. It has been taking a bit longer than they hoped. It seems world opinion wasn't always on their side for some reason. What the founders failed to recognize was the passionate connection to the land that the indigenous Palestinians had. My wife's family can definitively trace their Christian Arab lineage and legal claim of possession to land all over Israel and the Occupied Territories. And they can do it for well over 14 centuries of history. It seems the Arabs were really great note takers and preservers of every ones history. They were the learned scribes who kept the books and documented the events. To this day among Palestinians education is the most important priority.
Skip if you read nothing else I could suggest a story about school children's ordeals to go to school under curfew of occupation. It might break your heart. These could be any one's children. They just happen to be palestinian. You might not appreciate the sheer courage of the teachers who risked their lives to teach kids. But surely the kids stories would reach you. Perhaps in particular the part about their art show.
Every one's children deserve to be as free and safe as possible!
Wouldn't you agree Skip?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:29am PT
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philo,
"It is you saying that it is OK to send rockets into innocent peoples homes who have nothing to do with this conflict. Not I".
NO Skip it is NOT I who is saying that! I never have go read my posts.
"It is very important to point out that the groups you speak of (Tibetans, African Americans.....) never once thought it OK to kill innocent people completely unrelated to the incidents in question".
Better check your historical facts there Skip.
"Seems to me Ghandi handled his problems pretty successfully".
Yes Skip he did and he was brutalized for it. Like Nelson Mandella also was.
Believe it or not there are several "Gandhi-an" Palestinian peace activists. But the significant difference between India under the British and Palestine under the Israelis is Gandhi enjoyed unfettered travel and access to the whole country to rally support for non violent resistance. Conversely NO Palestinian is allowed unfettered travel and few are allowed to travel the whole of the so called country.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:34am PT
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I like how you call it a "fence" Fattrad. Have you seen that "fence" Fattrad?
That "fence" dwarfs the Berlin Wall. Care to see some pictures of that "fence"
And where exactly will that "fence" finally stand Jeff?
Draw a line on a map of Palestine/Israel then sign it and post it please Jeff.
I mean come on all your other geo-political prognostications have been "spot on".
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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This thread confirms this age of Kali is the iron age of hypocrisy and quarrel.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:40am PT
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Sorry Werner.
I have been trying to cut back. Nasty drug a belief system is.
You could avoid the political chaos threads and read my climbing stories about Red Rock and the Black Canyon instead?
Think of it as an instead thread.
Bump the climbing threads to the front page so to speak. Or so to type.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:44am PT
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Don't worry Philo. These threads don't bother me.
I was just pointing out the real world ....
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:47am PT
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Wait! The world IS real!?!?!? Now I am confused and probably need a rescue.
Werner do you make house calls?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:51am PT
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Phil, take the silver bullet out for a cruise, and let the snow slide off your cag....
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:56am PT
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Wow! This one is jumping, as is any thread dealing with Israel. I just read the first and last few pages.
I'm not sure Nazis is was the right word... I've always considered Israel to be States sponsored terrorists. Seems more fitting to me.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 12:34pm PT
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Skip, maybe if you get some time you can read the thread for the beginning and notice that you've got into a reactive mode where you're not your best self. It shows but you don't know it. You're not responding to any facts, nor are your stating any. You're just making assumptions and expanding on them.
Now say they are gangs in your town and they are robbing innocent tourists at the park. Nobody seems to be able to stop them. Is that an excuse to lock down the town, bomb it (killing lots of kids) and cut off it's food and power supply? There are millions of people living in tiny Gaza.
FYI, I've never been Buddhist. I'm every bit as much Christian as Buddhist. But our ability to look at our own actions and those of our faith are important. You're making a lot of blanket statements about the Palestinians but think it's somehow sacrilage to note that your own faith has been involved with murder of innocents just as widespread and unjustified as any Palestinian resistance (or is history spreading lies? Give us some counter-evidence)
You wrote
"It is very important to point out that the groups you speak of (Tibetans, African Americans.....) never once thought it OK to kill innocent people completely unrelated to the incidents in question."
Actually some Tibetans, African Americans and such did, they were just in the minority.
"Seems to me Ghandi handled his problems pretty successfully.
Of course he was killed by a radical Muslim."
Actually, Gandhi was killed by a radical Hindu who thought Gandhi was giving away too much power to the Muslims in negotiations.
Ironic
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 12:40pm PT
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Karl, I've noticed Skipt's change in demeanor too. I suppose it's natural when dealing the unsolvable problem of our time, and debating people on the other side of the issue.
There aren't easy solutions and the tit-for-tat nature of this conflict is frustrating, hard to define who's retaliating for what.
I'll stick to my guns and say Iran is the root of this ongoing conflict. It wasn't originally but it now perpetuates the conflict through proxies.
The f*#king Saudis never help either.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 12:41pm PT
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"You're just making assumptions and expanding on them."
Karl,
I think you have pointed out one of the major reasons for the mess in the first place.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 12:43pm PT
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I was going to mention that Hindu thing but didn't want to overload Skip.
Karl you seem like you might be a formidable and enjoyable opponent at chess.
Survival were you going to say "cage"?
The Philvo is still purring along.
Can''t decide if we should sell it as a redundant vehicle or
keep it around till my eldest decides he finally wants a license.
Happy New Year to you all. Even you Skip. I really mean it!
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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I think a brand new Hooters restaurant opening door would make a good neighbor.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:04pm PT
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You guys don't really help the issue by looking at this as a 'me against you' arguement. The paleo people always suffer the most (sometimes Israeli settlers) and Hamas or Fatah plays the victim card.
The paleo people should reject ALL violence against Israel and seek help from Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. As in neutral leadership w/o Iranian ties. That rules out Syria, but Jordan should step up to the plate here. Jordan is a pretty moderate gov't...reasonable.
Why do they never get much help from their 'brothers'?
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:13pm PT
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Cool...I'll send you my address Fatty.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:13pm PT
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bluering,
Look closely and understand what you are typing........ and apply it to the "the other side" - who's opinion and concerns are just as valid.
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Bamm_Bamm
Social climber
I'm lost, Please help me!!!
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:15pm PT
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I can't believe I am doing this again.
While skipt may be all of the things you say here in this thread say, they don't even come close to vitriol hatred that I have watched in this forum for the last year.
I think this is just a matter of "You can't take what you dish out" thing going on. Your being hoisted on your very own petard.
And Karl, I have watched your posts also,
You do bash other peoples religion a lot. You just do it subtly to cover it up.
Its still bashing no matter how you do it.
Peace
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
Warner, NH
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:19pm PT
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Shame on you. All of you.
This is a conflict that has been raging for centuries, and you think you know the solution?
This is none of our business. I take a side, yet I choose to leave it unsaid. Why? Because it's not our business!
I understand that we need to keep diplomatic ties through this whole situation, but the thought of imposing our might sickens me.
Let me clarify, so you don't get it twisted. By might, I only mean diplomatic muscle flexing. I think that we need to quit being a nation that condones and supports foreign wars and one that understands is might, yet chooses not to use it.
I believe in peace, intervention in others issues seems counter intuitive, as it only breeds more violence.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
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Doug, try to state you points more clearly to limit the 'chatter' on these threads.
Hamas was elected in a democratic manner by the people. It is a legit gov't entity that condones mortars and rocket-fire against Israel, sometimes indirectly.
As a legit gov't entity, Hamas has an obligation to police it's borders and reign in 'rogue' elements that may jepordize it's positions. Islamic Jihad, Pop Front, etc, get almost free reign under Hamas.
That's wrong. If Hamas can't control it's people as a gov't they need a change.
This brings us to why Hamas was elected. The promised the world and delivered next to nothing. The are just power-hounds, they don't give a crap about the civi population.
Israel is defending it's civi's from a terrorist onslaught.
Edit: Bamm Bamm's right too, Karl. You're more subtle, but no better than Skipt in letting you rage come through. I do it too!
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
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Israel should take a lesson from WWII: obliterate the Palestinian/Hamas Authority; reduce the Palestinians to the state of prehistory; crush the moral of the Palestinian people to the point of total collapse. Make it clear that this is their future to the end of time unless they are willing to except the future existence of Israel unequivocally. As with the Axis powers at the end of WWII, now you can rebuild with an independent, Palestinian state. Establish a neutral commission of democratic states to oversee the final settlements. It would be fair for Israel to deny right of return and except the 67 boundaries. Israeli settlements in the West Bank would be required to evacuate or they would be left behind and on their own -- kiss them off. An international body would oversee the economic rebuilding of the Palestinian state with total independence from Israeli interference. The US would have to monitor the above with the understanding that the US would take a rigid, neutral stance and mean it. It would be understood that radicals on either side would be crushed.
Brutal. Yes brutal. Remember, though, that the majority of Palestinians have supported the policies of Hamas and the PLO in respect to the attacks etc. Sometimes it's necessary to tear all the way down to rebuild. The above is radical. One side or the other is going to have to win completely or this will continue on and on.
This won't happen of course; but something like it will happen or the day will come when far worse will in the ME.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:35pm PT
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Woody, you may be right. It may have to happen to settle the conflict.
I ask everyone though, why has the West Bank been so silent in this conflict? Is it because it is controlled by Fatah and not Hamas? Is Fatah the future of Palestine?
Hamas definately is not. Fatah, with their flaws, is more reasonable than Hamas. Abbas is no saint, but he's somewhat reasonable.
This crap needs to end...one way or another, it stokes too many other conflicts (justifiably so or not).
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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Be sure to pitch to him our Hooters idea.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 02:25pm PT
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JEleazarian said: Much of my mother's family lived in Lebanon, until it was torn apart by civil war that was an outgrowth of the Arab-Israeli conflict, in which I hold the Israeli government as responsible as the Palestinians. I still have one first cousin in Beirut. I have no reason to support Israel, but the incivility of the anti-Israeli comments on this thread sickens me.
Of course there are two sides to this story, and I have often had more sympathy for the Palestinians than for the Israeli government (and sometimes, sad to say, its people) on many issues, but Israel was established by the world community, given the right to exist, threatened violently by its neighbors (except, of course, Lebanon!), and attacked with illegal deadly force continually.
In that circumstance, your calling the Israelis Nazis because they fight back, scabang, and your vitriolic, hate-mongering words I can only hold in contempt. Your comments aren't designed to foster debate; they only betray a seething, tormented, mind incapable of tolerating those with whom you disagree. That's rather like what you accuse the Israelis of doing.
Cut it out!
John
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
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"Doug, try to state you points more clearly to limit the 'chatter' on these threads. "
What ever blue.
If you can not see the point of my crap... you are up to your ears in the real stuff.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Dec 29, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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"but Israel was established by the world community, given the right to exist"
Which could be read as "land was stolen from other people in order to create the country of Israel..." It's no wonder that it lead to:
"threatened violently by its neighbors (except, of course, Lebanon!), and attacked with illegal deadly force continually."
Most people in the Arab nations see Israel's sheer existence as the *illegal* part of the whole equation and their "deadly force" as simply the only way to remove intruders from their land.
Don't even get me started on what a f*#king joke/farce the U.N. is...
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Dec 29, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Dec 29, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
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hahaha
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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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Dec 29, 2008 - 03:19pm PT
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one Israeli dead and 300+- Palestinians dead seems like a tragic over reaction; except I heard elections are coming soon and that Israel had this attack planned for quite a while. Israel and Palestine have proven they can't solve the problem Israel needs to back off and have the UN create a buffer zone and an independent state for Palestine that has good water supplies. The United States should demand it and if Israel had any sense they should demand it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
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Skip wrote,
"That's about all you wacko's on the left need to know.
Except killing lots of people,
Bulldozing homes of innocent people,
Beating up old women ( done by the settlers )
turning off the water supplies,
starving the population.
Sniping kids
Does nothing to stop the rockets.
.................
Blue wrote,
"Hamas was elected in a democratic manner by the people. It is a legit gov't entity that condones mortars and rocket-fire against Israel, sometimes indirectly"
George Bush was elected in a democratic manner by the people. He is the "legit" government entity who condones torture..............
................
My guess is the after Christmas angst has put things out of whack. I hope everyone has a better new Years.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:33pm PT
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I have an idea. Everyone in the world should give back territory that they or their ancestors ripped off from the previous inhabitants. Then those people should pass on back what they just received to those on back down the line etc. etc. etc. It doesn't matter in the least when it happened; there was an injustice; there were victims, and those terrible injustices should be rectified. Now there's a solution that should satisfy those who believe that Israel has committed a horrible atrocity here. Okay, lets get with it; everyone get packing. This is going to take some time and be somewhat inconvenient, but proper redress is in order. Oh, let's turn this problem over to the UN. They have a history of being quite efficient and fair.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:37pm PT
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What an absurd out of focus comment Woody quit masturbating all over yourself.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:40pm PT
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Bam-Bam, I don't see myself bashing anybody else's religion. In my heart, they are all my religions.
Wanna know who was a big basher of the Religion he practiced. Jesus himself. It's important to keep people thinking about how we get blind in our actions and it happens in politics and religion and relationships and every other facet of our lives where we're tempted to see others as wrong and limited but not question ourselves.
So I don't feel I'm bashing. I have made a huge study of many religions and so if people make statements are clearly fabricated and not supported by the religions themselves, it only serves the practice of those religions for people to face the truth.
It was the priests and the fundamentalists that Jesus criticized most in his sermons, not the dirtbags and losers.
So it's fair, since there has been so much mudslinging against the Palestinians in this thread, even dating back to WW2, to note a few things, such as Christian and Christian countries have killed WAY WAY more Jews than all of Islam combined over the centuries and that's even if you take Hilter and Germany out of the equation.
I notice the response isn't "mistakes were made by our brothers in the past and we must insure that they don't happen again" but is instead "You are hateful and bashing us. Stop and lets continue insisting that it's OK to collectively punish the Palestinian people because among them are terrorists that just can't accept their land being settled and continually confiscated year after year"
If all that upsets you, it's natural that we can condone things like what Woody is saying, which is basically, Let's do a Hitler routine on the Palestinians and put the survivors on reservations"
I have to say, that thinking seems more deserving of moral condemnation of me just pointing out real facts that nobody seems the least bit prepared to refute.
If I'm telling the truth, shouldn't we look at what might be just instead of choosing one dirty side or another?
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:46pm PT
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Phil, reference the post a ways back.
I was speaking old school, talking about your cagoule.sp?
This thread needs some damn drift!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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Woody wrote
"I have an idea. Everyone in the world should give back territory that they or their ancestors ripped off from the previous inhabitants. Then those people should pass on back what they just received to those on back down the line etc. etc. etc. It doesn't matter in the least when it happened; there was an injustice; there were victims, and those terrible injustices should be rectified. Now there's a solution that should satisfy those who believe that Israel has committed a horrible atrocity here. Okay, lets get with it; everyone get packing. This is going to take some time and be somewhat inconvenient, but proper redress is in order. Oh, let's turn this problem over to the UN. They have a history of being quite efficient and fair."
BTW, this wasn't the post I referenced in my post above.
problem is Woody, to be civilized humans at long last, we have to put a stop to war as a means of gaining territory. That's why the world rolled back Saddam in Kuwait isn't it?
Or are you prepared to continue to go along with "Might makes Right?"
I'd think twice about it as our economy is starting to suck wind, the Chinese have trillions in the bank, and the Islamic world is destined for big wealth and power as oil will get super expensive as it eventually becomes scarce. With all that in mind, I'd agree with PP that the Israel-Palestine situation would go alot better if Israel would allow UN peacekeeper in and international watchers.
Philo has a point as well. Why won't Israel specify it's borders or constitution? Trust those who have really studied this, it's all a smokescreen to get as much land with as few Palestinians as possible Not all Israelis support this, but they are locked into this political situation with illegal settlers holding too much sway.
Thus, if the Palestinians kept up a truce, as has happened many times, the Israelis find excuses to provoke the situation until something happens and then escalate from there. Sadly, they don't want real peace yet because they need conflict to continue to take land, settle, and push the Palestinians out.
It doesn't have to be that way. The international community could designate borders, enforce compliance with sanctions, and cut the BS on both sides, but the US stands in the way.
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 04:57pm PT
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345 Gazans dead and 1450 wounded so far all to retaliate for one killed Israeli. Seems fair and balanced to me. Surely there was no collateral damage either since everyone knows the are all terrorists or worse.
When does the ground offensive start? I'll make smores.
Oh yeah Survival Cagoule I knew that.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
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If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?
Ya know? This question fails some people, but not most.
Boo-hoo, poor Hamas always gets picked on....(that's coming)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:13pm PT
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I dunno Tomcat, ask the Lebonese, some Hezbollah captured a few Israeli soldiers and Israel invaded, leaving 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets on the ground.
So do we suggest everybody just kill whomever they have the technology to kill so they don't beat us to it?
I'm thinking with a billion Muslims in the world, it's not the best plan.
Like Jesus said, it's not worth it to lose your soul over worldly gain and loss.
peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:16pm PT
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If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?
Ya know? This question fails some people, but not most.
Boo-hoo, poor Hamas always gets picked on....(that's coming)
Ah the return of the prodigal Boo Hoo Bluering. Who has failed the same question.
If someone shoots missiles and bombs into your country killing over 300 and wounding more than a thousand are you going to stop shooting rockets even if they suck?
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:18pm PT
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Guess we'll find out PhiLO.
Two billion Christians Karl.Who do you suppose has better weapons?
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:23pm PT
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"If someone shoots 2000 crappy rockets into your country,are you going to kill them now or wait until they get better weapons?
Ya know? This question fails some people, but not most"
If it were all this simple.......EVERYONE could actually understand the situation!
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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:28pm PT
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Israel is the classic abusive bully (1 dead vs 300 dead). The problem is that the entire world is watching and doing nothing because Israel is enabled by the United States. Maybe the bully is doing one last smashing before Obama starts? Because clearly Bush could care less. He has barely mentioned Israel in his 8 years. Hopefully Obama won't be so negligent especially in behind the scenes negotiations.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:32pm PT
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"Two billion Christians Karl.Who do you suppose has better weapons?"
I want to know who has better falafel?
Jews or Muslims?
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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:34pm PT
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especially if I was an abusive bully with anger management problems
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 05:44pm PT
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We get it Skip you can cut and paste. ad nauseam.
You know Skip there is a subtle diplomatic innuendo in Obama's message that you have failed to grasp. It is a message to Israel to stop sending missles into peoples bedrooms as well. While not lost on the Arab and Jewish residence of the area it is a message ungotten by the simple minded and media blinded of Our great nation. Probably why the Nazraelis of the IDF started their assault on Gaza while Shrubie was still in charge.
So go on keep posting it up buddy. The "paleos" appreciate your unintended efforts on their behalf.
Wait till you see how world opinion responds when evidence becomes more widely known that the humanitarian shipments Israel let in shortly before the attack were not just a public relations ploy. But were actually used to track and target the civilians who thronged for much needed supplies in the busiest part of the day.
Sweet great humanitarians! Better get on with the ground assault to eliminate evidence as fast as possible.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 06:08pm PT
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If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Palestinians to do the same thing.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Dec 29, 2008 - 06:09pm PT
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"arbitrarily"?
Like the US "arbitrarily" decided the borders of Indian Reservations?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 06:10pm PT
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JEleazarian not only refers to having family in the Middle East, but with a name like his - apparently ending in "ian", if that's his real name - his ancestry is likely Armenian. A people that knows only too well what it is like to be stateless and persecuted, particularly after the Turkish genocide during World War I. (Dr. Ed might concur, though he wisely avoids these threads.)
I still don't agree with many of his views, and believe this thread is a waste of electrons. But unlike most of us, JE seems to have a dog in the fight.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 06:11pm PT
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By what right does Israel get to "decide the borders of a supposed sovereign nation?
Would that be the "right of might"? Because if "might is right" then Israel is as right as it gets. Right DaftRat?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 06:17pm PT
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Since when has DaftRat ever been Right, other than winged?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 07:02pm PT
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350+ dead compared to 1 dead. Yup pretty heinous rocket attacks there Skippy.
Find out how much campaign slush money your man got from AIPAC before you quote him as an authority.
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2008 - 07:21pm PT
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They're all in AIPAC's pocket - Pelosi, Boxer, Feingold et al. It's laughable. The only one with any balls (sic) is Kucinich.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 07:29pm PT
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Thing is Skip, we're not going to give Obama the pass on human rights abuse that Bush got from ya'll for 8 years. Just because he says it doesn't mean we call it good.
I think it's fair to say, looking even outside supertopo, that the holidays are a stressful time of year. Some of it overflows back here where it's safer to let some out
Peace
Karl
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Dec 29, 2008 - 07:34pm PT
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skipt=LEB
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 07:42pm PT
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"I know what's in the AIPAC checkbook."
Not much after Madeoff!
"AIPAC Board Member"
Jeff, this got you into trouble once already......
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 07:46pm PT
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"Asked who was to blame for the dire situation in Gaza, the foreign minister [of Egypt] replied: "Ask the party that controls Gaza." "
Since Israel is the "decider" when it comes to anything getting into or out of Gaza, the controlling party of Gaza is..... drum roll please....... ISRAEL! Go figure?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 07:50pm PT
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"The only one with any balls (sic) is Kucinich. "
That is ridiculously funny, ROTFLMAO!!11!1!
(yer a fool too!)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:00pm PT
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"Why is it that anytime the UN makes a decision unfavorable to Israel the right wing hawkish crowd lambastes the UN and declares the body irrelevant. But when the UN might help Israel the UN is exhalted to the N'th degree? "
Because when a clearly leftist/pacifist organ like the UN says Hamas is out of line, there's no more disputing who's to blame.
It's obvious to the everyone else, just not to you!
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:05pm PT
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"Because when a clearly leftist/pacifist organ like the UN says Hamas is out of line, there's no more disputing who's to blame.
It's obvious to the everyone else, just not to you!"
Been sniffing glue again bluering?
Check the UN again.
And by the way the only way you'll have more balls than Kucinich is if you are at a table of rocky mountain oysters.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:13pm PT
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"Been sniffing glue again bluering?
Check the UN again. "
Did you hear the pacifist, Ban Ki Moon, today?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:21pm PT
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Hey Riley,
Its simple. Not everything one can do is effective.
Bulldozing innocent peoples homes will not stop the terrorist. It just pisses off the friendlies and makes more terrorists.
Neither will Snipers shooting children.
Shutting off the water to an entire area.
Settlers beating up old women.
Plus many other things Israel has done.
..................
Of course it is within Israel's power to do these things. They already have. But did they work? Nope..
Some folks just don't want to recognize this.
...................
Okay Skip.. you can post what Barack said again.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:23pm PT
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"An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind."
Mohandas Karamchand ("Mahatma") Gandhi
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:30pm PT
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Good one Skippy your desperation has left you nothing but the need to quote Arabs and leftist, liberal, socialist Democrats. You must be so proud of yourself.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:34pm PT
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"An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind."
Sorry, but as noble as that sounds, it just doesn't hold water. In fact, it's foolishly naive. This is where all the non-Christian Jesus lovers are wrong. Jesus whould give the dude a chance, but to defend children and civis, he'd probably swing a bat or pull a trigger.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:38pm PT
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"Gandhi was killed by a radial Muslim.
-Pretty much self explanatory"
Come on Skipper quit being such a racist tool. We already corrected you on this. Gandhi was killed by a radical Hindu zealot angry about concessions to the Islamist.
Please quit perpetrating lies no matter how conveniently you think they fit your misguided efforts. It only makes you seem ignorant, childish and foolish.
Oh Radical you poor misguided dupe. Did you miss my explanation about the Gazan rockets having about a 5 mile range and about five pounds of explosives? The mexico to US scenario just doesn't wash. Or the part that 2000 rocket attacks only killed one Israeli? And to call the Palestinians, traditionally the most highly and widely educated population in the Arab world, stupid is an affront and a clear indication of your racism and hatred. I pity you.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:56pm PT
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Here is a nice touch for all you Arab haters out there who want to say "why don't the Palestinians allow their wounded to get medical help" Well Israeli news agencies are reporting that actually it is the Israelis who won't let wounded Palestinians get to emergency medical care. They are dying waiting for permission. What glorious humanitarians the Israelis are.
Winds are a blowin' the times they are a changin'.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:57pm PT
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Or the part that 2000 rocket attacks only killed one Israeli?
They killed three more today.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 08:59pm PT
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Riley, I usually disagree with you, but damn....you're making my point for me. Nice to see that a good liberal like yourself can still evaluate a situation and make good judgements.
Israel should use as much restraint 'as reasonably possible'. In other words, limit civi damage. That may mean ground invasion.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:06pm PT
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Wow TGT 3 more really. That's 100 to 1 great odds if you are the house.
And Blue you are an idiot. A ground invasion means massive civilian casualties. No reasonable restraint there. Only scores more dead non combatants. You know women and children. Gaza is a crowded civilian area.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:12pm PT
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Radical have you paid any attention? About the daily violence and brutality perpetrated on the Palestinians by their illegal occupiers. About the lack of other means to resist occupation. Which is their legal right. About anything besides the myths you cling to?
If the Palestinians have survived the brutal onslaught of the IDF time and time again and yet they still fight back and resist. That shouldn't tell you that they are stupid but rather that they have a legitimate cause.
What exactly would you do in their shoes?
And for the record my wife is a Palestinians of a currently and historicaly significant family.
They are also Naqba survivors. Lots of family still over there. So you see I do have a deep interest in this conflict and vast knowledge base about it. OK with you?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:17pm PT
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Skippy don't you mean "learn to lie along"?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:20pm PT
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I also don't believe that Israel/Palestine has created that many, if any at all terrorists.
Arabs, Persians, Al Qaeda, etc have a well documented history of not giving a sh#t about Palestinians. They have only just recently started using it as a political tool.
I wonder, how much of the billions and billions of dollars of middle eastern oil money do the other Muslim states donates to aid the Palestinians? - Radical
This is another whopper of Zionist propaganda. Learn the truth.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:21pm PT
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What an inflammatory thread to appear at the top of a goddamm climbing forum page. Sure, I'm bumping it now, but it's been up here a long while and nothing new is being said, yet the message of the title is just hanging out there, despite the fact that it is a revolting affront to reality.
"Who is it that can make your little armies of the left, and your little armies of the right, light up the sky, tonight?"
Shutting down whoever's supplying those mortar rounds is the only thing that will have any effect, btw.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:24pm PT
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And Radical why didn't you ask Skipt why he is so fired up about this. How many family members does he have in harm's way do you suppose?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:53pm PT
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Skip whereas I appreciate the sentiment you have NO idea how I have spent my time. Just for giggles why don't you try and get a phone call through to any of the occupied territories tonight. Don't mind trying Gaza at all.
None of the "Blame" as you call it that I have leveled at Israel is unfounded. It is all well documented and verifiable.
My true concern is for Peace, Justice and liberty for everyone on both sides of the conflict. NO MORE KILLING!
I hope that is clear.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 29, 2008 - 09:55pm PT
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The Palestinians voted Hamas in. The Palestinian majority approve the policies of Hamas. The Palestinians approve of martyrdom for their cause, including raising their children to be terrorists. It seems reasonable for Israel to plow through and martyr as many as possible.
Philo, spare me the whining about civilian casualties. They support Hamas so they should be happy to become martyrs for the cause. Keep martyring them until they decide they've had enough and choke on their martyring. Lots of Palestinians are raising their children to be martyrs. Okay. Why complain when it happens. Oh, I see; it's too early. They haven't had the opportunity to blow up an Israeli restaurant or school yet. What the hell, they just get to go to Allah a little early. Too bad about the little boys, though. Now, what the devil will those little guys be able to do with forty virgins? On the other hand, the little girls will meet up with Mohammad and all the bearded old boys. And, they know what to do with little girls. But, once the old guys train the little girls, the little girls can take care of the little boys. So, we now have a lot of happy little Martyrs in Muslim heaven doing a different kind of banging.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:09pm PT
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Two completely different contrasting posts above.
Riley from the heart and Woody so dry and heartless.
Woody that's just plain mean.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
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being nice wont solve problems with militant terrorist groups. no one like meanies, and few people aspire to meanness, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:17pm PT
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Woody how pathetically droll and insensitive can you be.
You see Skip (et al) I cannot sit back while some of you debase and denigrate the Palestinians and condemn them to the illegal act of collective punishment. Or worse call for their wholesale slaughter without the slightest shread of an attempt to wonder why they fight back. To do anything less would be tantamount to abandoning and betraying my family. Which by the way includes many Jewish members.
And thank you Riley much appreciated.
And yes I have a great many family members there. Most of them are Christian Arabs and not one of them is a terrorist.
So for the rest of you who don't like what I post on these politically charged thread climbing stories.
Here this will make it easy.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=747131
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=730016
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Mugley
Trad climber
Newark, N.J.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:40pm PT
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Hey, among all this carnage----let's not forget our real enemies !
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 29, 2008 - 10:57pm PT
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I have a modest proposal for ending this discussion. It seems that certain posters insist on having the last word. Neither side will convince the other, so . . .
Let me have the last word: It's time to move on. Or, to use the words of Bullwinkle Moose, "If this train goes by this station one more time, I'd like to get off."
John
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
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OK john step off the train if you need to but the slaughter is on going and the ground assault is about to begin, Do you honestly expect me to stay quiet?
Besides I have done everything to get folks to read my climbing threads but apparently this stuff is more interesting.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:03am PT
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"Who threw the first punch in this this time?? "
It's been said, and I think it's true, that who is 'wrong' in the Israeli Palestinian conflict depends on when you start the clock.
In the Bible, God promises this land to the descendants of Abraham but, then again, the Palestinians claim to descend from Abraham's first born,Ishmael. It's a family squabble from thousands of years ago.
It wasn't nice the first time. When the Jews invaded the promised land in Biblical times, they took the land and killed every man, woman and Child in most every village because they said God told them to do it. It's a claim that hard to get the police to believe these days.
Even when we go back to 1948, it's just a matter of weeks or months to determine who was aggressor? Just remember, Israel wasn't formed by international degree or put within internationally proposed borders. That was in the works but Israel declared it's own independence before an agreement was made. Of course the neighbors objected.
What to do? I think internationally brokered borders and peacekeepers need to be crammed down the throats of both sides.
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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"What to do? I think internationally brokered borders and peacekeepers need to be crammed down the throats of both sides. "
So who determines 'official' borders then? History? Isn't that the crux of the problem here?
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:49am PT
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these pretzels...ARE MAKIN' ME THIRSTY!!!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:01am PT
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This is NOT an attack on Hamas for the defense of Israel. This is an atrocity of genocidal slaughter of trapped and helpless civilians. Gaza is the most densely populated land on Earth. They have attacked clinics, hospitals and the university of 18,000 students over 60% of them young women. In fact the IDF made a point of firing multiple rockets into the women's dormitory of the University. Who exactly is Israel defending themselves against? Millions of starving refugees?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:20am PT
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Breathe Philo. A brother is offering you the hand of friendship. Accept it. Let the peace of that friendship flow over you. This is the same healing energy that needs to flow over the middle east. You have told us that it is flowing in some parts of Palistine and Israel. Prayerfully, my hope is that this will grow and spread over all of the region.
I hold you and your family and all those in the middle east in my Prayers.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:21am PT
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I have been studying the Volcano that is Yellowstone for many years. Obama is going to have to come up with a solution to the problem of the moving magma or we are all dead. Everyone, exept us Jews. Yes I have 25 percent jew blood.
Juan
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 30, 2008 - 03:26am PT
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Obama will save us.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 09:24am PT
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"An eye for an eye never solves anything."
Unless your goal is constant chaos, which it appears both Hammas and Israel want.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 30, 2008 - 11:36am PT
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"Thank you for finally agreeing with me that it is a "Clash of Civilizations"
I think you use the word "Civilization" loosely.
Also funny, Israel continually denied that the wall would be the final border and even it's own supreme court (to its credit) ruled it's path unjust
peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
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No DaftRat you are once again wrong. You should be used to that by now. We are not all in agreement with you. In fact remarkably few STers are. This "CofC" that you crave
is only such because you and AIPAC and the Zionists want to proclaim it as such. This current conflict does NOT go back "thousands of years" Unless you are specifically referring to Jewish historical penchant for taking by brutality of force that which is NOT theirs. If that is the case then I am all with you. The only ones "Clashing" with "Civilization" are the Israelis. They have thrown international law into the dustbin and are engaging in the war crime of a slow but steady genocide of the Palestinians. They have abandoned their morality and humanity. Continuing on this path will only bring about the end of the State of Israel. Not from imagined external threats but internally by the rapid degeneration of blackened hearts and corrupted minds. This will bring about the self inflicted and all too avoidable end of a Jewish only homeland.
My wife just talked last night to one of her best friends. She is a wonderfully loving 90+ year old Jewish gentle woman who Loves my Quaker Palestinian wife like a daughter. She is the soul family survivor of the Holocaust. Her family fought and died in the Warsaw ghetto uprising. Do you care to know what she has to say about this crisis? She is heartbroken! She is ashamed! She is appalled! She is disgusted. She refuses to accept that Israel is in any way acting on her behalf, in her name or in her defense.
She thinks the radical fundamentalists of Israeli Zionism need a proper spanking by their mommas. The need to go back to Synagogue and plead for forgiveness. She is
lividly angry!
Care to argue with her Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody? Any of you arm chair heros want to compare the vastness of your experiences and travails with hers then tell her she is wrong?
Because I offer that it is best not to argue with me today.How many family members did you lose in the last few day Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody? Spare me your pompous self righteous racism will you please. My wife is on the verge of catatonia having seen news footage from Gaza last night. It started with footage of a 18 month Palestinian child who was barely alive having had her face blown off by one of those "surgical" strikes the IDF is so proud of. That was exceptionally hard to see. But what really devastated her was the site of a wholly leveled apartment building in the background. It seems the baby was salvaged from the wreckage. But you see that same building was home to friends and family. Innocent friends and family who never did you or anyone you know the slightest harm. They may have gotten out but there was NO warning. They were told to expect a "lull" to provide for safe shopping before the siege. There was NO lull. The IDF struck at the busiest parts of the city at the busiest part of the day. So much for limiting civilian casualties. The Palestinians were trapped and hunted like Bison in a pen.
Problem for my wife is that NO one can get a call in or out to check on loved ones. She is utterly in the dark. She fears that tragic child is her friend's baby.
But all you testosterone overdosed war mongers and Arab haters will probably rest assured that if any of my wife's friends or family were murdered they probably deserved it. You probably think they were shielding Hamas terrorists from the F-16s and Apache gun ships with their apron strings.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
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Oh Mercy.
Philo, I am so sorry. I hope that it turns out that your friends and family are okay and I hope that some day both sides can learn to live in peace.
John
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
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Thank You John! Very much. I want the same thing.
But right now I'd settle with getting my wife to stop crying.
And Riley we are totally cool, no kick in the nuts necessary. I am just very heartened that you understood. You are a good man. Thank you for your words.
Most sincerely Phil Broscovak
For the few of you on the extreme right of reason...
You see I am agonizing here. In face of the scale of this brutality (the bloodiest since 1948) I just can't tolerate the few STers who constantly act like a cheering section, urging more killing, more destruction and suggesting the Israelis "wipe em out!"
Particularly when this same thoughtless souls unequivocally defend any action by Israel regardless of how repugnant, illegal or morally bankrupt those actions turn out to be.
Go ahead tell me I am wrong, tell me I am stupid, tell me I am an apologist for savage blood thirsty terrorists. Go ahead, then go have a heartless to heart with your God.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
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Nobody wants to see innocent people die, but there isn't a country in the world that would defend itself in the manner that Israel is doing if faced with a similar threat.
Gaza is ruled by Hamas and the people of Gaza support Hamas. Hamas is dedicated to the annihilation of Israel. If they had their way not a single Jew would be left alive in Israel/Palestine.
Innocent people died in Nazi Germany also, and some of their family, especially those who supported Hitler and his policies, blamed FDR and Churchill.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:34pm PT
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This is interesting Jeff.
Why are the Saudis complaining about the influence of Iran in the region?
Are they just bitching for show?
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:41pm PT
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Philo writes:
"Care to argue with her Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody?"
---- and
"How many family members did you lose in the last few day Jeff, Skipt, Bluering, Chaz, Woody?"
You're not dragging ME into this! (you'll notice this is my first post on this thread)
As long as people from Palestine, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Iraq all get along fine in Los Angeles (and they DO, because they're not stupid enough to try and fight their idiot ansesterial old-country quarrels here), then I don't give a damn what they do over there in their little shithole.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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Jeff, NO i don't believe you do understand. There is so much you don't understand.
The Palestinian Authority and the large majority of Palestinians have already conceded Israel's right to exist. They have done so repeatedly and unequivocally in front of the world. And they have avowed such for a long time now to NO avail. But you all fail to mention this in your Arab bashing hatred. You like the Israelis keep changing the criteria for "PEACE' and statehood. No matter how much the Palestinians agree to how little they get or how well they comply with Israeli demands they rules keep changing on them. How many variations to what is required of the Palestinians have you yourself posted? The Israelis won't give peace a chance because they have absolutely no honest intention to allow for the Palestinians what they themselves demand, Statehood. Please for once be honest and acknowledge that the long term game plan is to eliminate all Arabs from the land as quickly as world opinion will allow.No one will drive Israel into the sea but themselves and God!
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 01:45pm PT
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LOL!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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Read international reports Jeff. The truth is it's the Israelis who won't let wounded Palestinian civilians out of the prison that is Gaza. Nor will the Egyptians, who claim they won't open the gates till Hamas concedes power. The Israelis have tried to make it sound that the Gazans are massing to escape. The reports from Gaza say NO one is trying to escape they are just pleading for food and medicine. You know, prior to the attack by Israel, the on going total blockade of Gaza by the Israelis has killed many more civilians than all the rockets fire out of Gaza. Even just the Israeli refusal to allow Insulin to be delivered has killed more Palestinian civilians than all that rocket fire combined.
Now before Big Jeff tries to say "but look the Israelis let in almost 100 truck loads of humanitarian supplies aren't they wonderful?" Remember that was the first aid allowed in for months. And it was delivered just hours before the attacks began. The shipments were destroyed in the attacks along with the masses of innocent civilians who had gathered desperate for food, water and medicine. The IDF better get in there with tanks and bull dozers right away to destroy evidence of their war crimes before any one recovers the GPS tracking units stashed among those
"humanitarian supplies! Kind of like the US Cavalry giving tuberculosis laden blankets to the Sioux before attacking them that winter.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
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"The Palestinian Authority and the large majority of Palestinians have already conceded Israel's right to exist. They have done so repeatedly and unequivocally in front of the world."
The PA has done this, but not Hamas. Hamas went to war against the PA over this. Hamas has repeatedly and unequivocally called for the annihilation of Israel.
The war in Gaza is against Hamas, not the PA.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
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Palestinian Gaza should find other trading partners besides Israel.
What's Egypt do for stuff like insulin?
Perhaps a stockpile of insulin should have established before launching rockets?
Or, better yet, simply spend the rocket-money on insulin.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
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"Palestinian Gaza should find other trading partners besides Israel. "
Tough to do when Israel has a blockade on all of your borders.
Egypt will do nothing so it does not put into jeopardy the treaty it has with Israel regarding the Sinai and especially the border with gaza.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:18pm PT
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How does Israel blockade the Egypt-Gaza border?
Rocket parts and explosives have no problem running this blockade. Shows where Palestinian priorities are.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:21pm PT
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Sorry about that.
Did not finish a thought and then picked up on another sentence. Good catch!
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
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I don't really care if the Big Cockroach kills the Little Cockroach, or if they just fight it out for another 60 years.
But some things just don't make sense, like a shortage of insulin in Gaza but no shortage of rockets.
Curious really.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:30pm PT
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Chaz,
I can, from the stuff in my print shop, build a rocket that could easily hit downtown Reno from where I'm at, about 5 miles away. And that is without metal parts!
Now Isolating Insulin would be a challenge.....
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
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Chaz you are wrong! Nothing gets into Gaza UNLESS Israel approves it. Which is why more than a million people don't even have BREAD! The "terrorist" tunnels that Israel is so hot on destroying are mostly used to get in what little food and medicine there is. Yes of course weapons also follow the same route. But regarding these uber sophisticated rockets you all are so up in arms about I can go into my garage and produce virtually the same weapon with materials and supplies from my business.
And like those world class weapons systems it wouldn't even reach my kids high school. And it would have less explosive force or destructive capacity than an average hand grenade. I could build it in a couple of hours. You know the American military was thoroughly befuddled by the Vietnamese capacity to create endlessly evolving home made explosives. They made these with anything they could find including unexploded US ordinance. We bombed them into the stone age and they kept coming back more determined than ever.
If you really think the Palestinian priority is murdering Jews and that they would rather spend what little money they have on rockets rather than feeding their children then you are not only sadly misled but sick as well.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:41pm PT
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Plus you can't store insulin for years and years. Isn't it only good for a few months?
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:43pm PT
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John,
Good point.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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Those horrible Gazan rockets don't have the same explosive power of the hundreds of thousands of illegal and unexploded cluster bomblets left behind by Israel on their Ill fated invasion of Lebanon. Ask the hundreds of kids who have been maimed or crippled for life because the stumbled upon these inhumane evils. You cant ask the dozens of dead children though their parents may have a few words to share.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
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" left behind by Israel on their Ill fated invasion of Lebanon"
Why did Israel invade Lebanon in 2006? Ill-fated, would you prefer a more 'successful' invasion next time?
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Dec 30, 2008 - 03:34pm PT
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So what was the point behind Hamas firing a bunch of rockets at Israel again?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
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Wow Blue six whole people. That's such a holocaust! So you have been ignoring the news out of Gaza because so many Jews are suffering is that it.
Israel invaded Lebanon, killed and maimed untold numbers of innocent civilians destroyed tens of millions of dollars worth of infrastructure and got their own noses bloodied beyond their wildest fears. Why? Because in response to regular Israeli targeted assassinations and kidnappings, two IDF soldiers were taken captive. Two Soldiers! Was it worth it? Did they ever get their soldiers back?
In their arrogance the IDF believed they were infallible and undefeatable. When their poorly thought out and executed campaign ground to a stand off they realized the could lose this one. So they beat a hasty retreat leaving tons of illegal bomblets as child killing landmines behind. The IDF was and is embarrassed that all their vaunted power couldn't subdue a rag tag bunch of rag heads in the desert. Now the rest of the world knows that Israeli might is not omnipotent. The Israelis can be defeated and they know it adding to their desperation to appear victorious in Gaza no mater what the cost. Too bad they were not forced to pay reparations to Lebanon. Then they might understand how much "at any cost" costs. But they got off with out any recriminations. Why? US veto power in the UN! We will pay for them to do what ever they want regardless of how horrendous the outcome. Why? Why should we pay for Israeli war crimes when we can barely afford to pay for our own?
Is the cost/benefit analysis of our unilateral commitment to Israel really that wonderfully beneficial to us that we can cast away our moral obligation to the rest of the world?
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Dec 30, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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See what kind of *change* Obama brings.
I'm betting zero.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 04:27pm PT
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Philo, you keep telling us how harmless these 'toy rockets' are and that the Israeli respone to barrages of rockets is unjustified. Bullshit! Once again you show yourself to be a lying propagandist.
The rockets DO kill and they DO harm people.
Israel has a duty to respond to those people launching the rockets, it's the primary function of gov't...protecting it's citizens from attack.
Hizbullah started the Lebanese conflict and you damn well know this. They killed 6 border patrol guards and the 2 they kidnapped I believe were just recently returned to Israel IN COFFINS, during a 'prisoner exchange'.
Stop perpetuating your lies. Some people see through your BS.
Oh, and if Israel is such a well known aggressor and a murderous bully, why would Hamas fire fockets into Israel and give Israel an excuse to re-invade Gaza?
Didn't Israel just evacuate Gaza and tear it's own citizens from their settlements to give back an 'occupied' area? Geez, maybe the Israelis should re-occupy it. They had fewer rocket attacks then.
The militant Palestinian is a dying breed. They are too stupid to survive, I'm sorry to say. They keep pushing Israel to go back and re-occupy everything they've given up. How smart is that?
Here's the start os the Lebanon conflict...(this is after Israel PULLED OUT of Gaza and OUT of Southern Lebanon)
2006 July 12: Hizbullah launches its Operation Truthful Promise, in which rockets were sent from areas in southern Lebanon under their control, into Israel. Hizbullah soldiers kidnaps two Israeli soldiers and kills another 3, all being part of a routine patrol along the border. Five more soldiers were killed by a land mine, when trying to rescue the two abducted soldiers. Hizbullah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, stated that the only way of returning the two kidnapped soldiers, was through a prison exchange.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
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So when are you sniveling beanie hats that want to save the Mideast going over there to fix it?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 05:11pm PT
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So Blue, you know why I am passionately concerned but why are you so wrapped up in this conflict? What is your stake in this humanitarian crisis?
By the way the faceless infant apparently died. No word yet on the mother.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 05:15pm PT
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Werner and Philo, I have no desire to go back to Israel, been there once. From what I saw most of Egypt, Israel, and Turkey are shitholes. I'm good here.
Since when do I have to immerse my hand in sh#t to comment on the offensivness of it?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 05:29pm PT
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So Skipt you still are incapable of answering the simplest of questions. If it is all such a sh#t hole why do you care so much?
Since when do I have to immerse my hand in sh#t to comment on the offensivness of it?
Dude you are in much more than wrist deep. How's it smell?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 05:34pm PT
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you think you're really clever, don't ya, Philo?
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Dec 30, 2008 - 05:37pm PT
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Question for Philo:
Why drag that insane conflict HERE?
What are we going to do about it?
How 'bout we leave Old Country beefs back in the Old Country?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 05:41pm PT
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So the pleasure craft "Dignity" caring crucially needed medical supplies to the humanitarian crisis that is Gaza barely made it back to the port of Tyre in Lebanon. The relief ship was rammed three times by Israeli war ships IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS. The intent was much the same as their attack on the USS Liberty. They wanted to sink these boats. These are unprovoked acts of war. How do you apologists for Israel justify this act. How will you claim the right of self defense given it occurred to a non armed pleasure craft on a International humanitarian mission in International waters?
In your minds does Israel ever do wrong?
I NEVER said the Gazan rockets were harmless. It's just that compared to the military might and materiel of the IDF these rockets are pretty tame and mostly futile.
How many of these rockets landing in the same place at the same time would it take to equal the destruction of just one 1 ton israeli bomb dropped from the safety of an F-16?
And Chaz I am sorry you missed my post that explained that my wife is Palestinian and has family and friends under fire in the war zone. So yeah it is a little sensitive and personal to me. Do you have a problem with that? Do you want to turn my wife in to Homeland Security or the Mossad as a Terrorist sympathizer? Seems like something you guys would enjoy doing.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 05:46pm PT
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What would you expect military vessels to do in a naval blockade?
Duh? They're lucky they didn't get fired upon and sunk!
"In your minds does Israel ever do wrong?"
Yeah, of course...sometimes. It's human nature, especially in armed conflict.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
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Skip you are right I meant it for Bluering. Sorry but it is easy to get you all confused. You Know once you read one right wing radical you've read them all. Anyway sorry and f*#k you too!
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Dec 30, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
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Maybe Philo missed my earlier point.
People from Palestine, Israel, and everywhere else in the world get along just fine in Los Angeles.
Why drag ANY conflict over here? We don't need it.
America's a nation of immigrants; We ALL have family in foreign countries who are / were in conflict. That's no reason to continue the conflicts over here.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 06:09pm PT
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Boo hoo Blew, what did you miss? The part about International Waters or the part about medicine? This isn't the US blockading Cuba to prevent further deployment of nuclear missiles. This a shipment of aid to a starving and dying people. This is not war time this is a unilateral attack and probable invasion. And you are popping up the corn to revel in the "deserved" carnage.
You know some of the finest pediatricians in the world and right here in the good ol US of A are refugee Palestinians. I prey that your child never gets deathly ill and you have to face one of these evil terrorist doctors in an emergency. Oh the horrors of moral dilemma!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 06:13pm PT
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Of course they have.
Of course she does.
Anyone else you want murdered Jeff?
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 30, 2008 - 06:13pm PT
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Cynthia McKinney, is a complete embarrassment.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 06:13pm PT
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"I prey that your child never gets deathly ill and you have to face one of these evil terrorist doctors in an emergency. Oh the horrors of moral dilemma! "
Actually my boy, John, was circumcisezed by a muslim female doctor. Pretty good job too!
Who the f*#k said anything bad about Paleo civis? You're getting all confused. I got no problem with them. Liberalism is sometimes a dangerous mental disorder.
Relax.
EDIT: "Cynthia McKinney, is a complete embarrassment"
I agree with you there, Chris.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 06:26pm PT
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It is the "paleo-civies" who are starving and dying under occupation.
It is the "paleo-civies" who are being mass murdered in these attacks.
Or have you convinced yourself that only enemies in uniform are dying?
Who is confused?
And again the use of "Paleo" to infer the Palestinian people is demeaning, debasing and dehumanizing. It is an effort to minimize the humanity of the Palestinians and make it easier to accept their slaughter. Kikes, wops, spics, krauts, japs. What's the difference when your demonizing a part of humanity you intend to see eliminated?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 07:03pm PT
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Alright, Paleo isn't a nice term, I'll stop.
In you last post you, as usual, you are way exagerrating. Mass murder, mass starvation, all at the hands of Israelis?
Nice try. You know, just because you say something that is shocking, doesn't mean everyone is going to buy it. You do a disservice to your arguement by making such absurd points.
I'm done her, for now, until you make other exagerrated or untrue statements.
(plus my wife has a Black Angus gift certificate and it's almost chow time)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 07:12pm PT
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Alright, Paleo isn't a nice term, I'll stop.
Thank You.
In you last post you, as usual, you are way exagerrating. Mass murder, mass starvation, all at the hands of Israelis?
No I am not exaggerating. How many non combatant civilian deaths does it take before you call it murder? How many more before you call it mass murder?
I know that when it comes to the deaths of Israelis you think six is enough to accuse the Palestinians of Mass Murder. So how many hundreds of dead Palestinians will it take???
Nice try. You know, just because you say something that is shocking, doesn't mean everyone is going to buy it.
Just like when you all keep repeating deliberate misinformation?
I'm done her, for now, until you make other exagerrated or untrue statements.
Cool!
(plus my wife has a Black Angus gift certificate and it's almost chow time)
Seriously have a nice evening dining with the wife.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 07:13pm PT
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DaftRat show me one post where I write "evil Israelis". Just one!
Don't lie about what I say like you do about what Israel does.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 08:20pm PT
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I'm done her, for now, until you make other exagerrated or untrue statements.
Well I guess I passed his test.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 30, 2008 - 09:11pm PT
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Beginning of clip,
oops! sorry neighbors. We didn't think if we buried a few tons of explosives under your houses that that might happen.
end of clip,
Must have been some powerfull fava beans growing in that greenhouse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p--x0NCdJH4&feature=channel_page
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 30, 2008 - 10:10pm PT
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Oh spare me the ludicrousness of Your "surgical" strikes. There isn't any proof available to indicate hitting a weapons cache. Just Israeli say so. I can still remember Colin Powell standing in front of the world asserting with out doubt that the satellite pictures showed Iraqi mobile chemical weapons plants. I also remember it didn't turn out to be true. Did it? If you insist all Israeli strikes are surgically accurate then the recent missile strikes on Hospitals and the University, including the women's dorm, were deliberate.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 10:09am PT
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051290.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D301208/248iranAP.jpgLast update - 20:58 30/12/2008
Iran Jews stage pro-Palestinian rally near UN offices in Tehran
By Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondent
Tags: Gaza, Hamas, Israel News
Members of Iran's small Jewish community staged a demonstration outside of the United Nations' office in Tehran, to protest the Israel Defense Forces' operation in the Gaza Strip. The official Iranian news agency, IRNA, reported that community members, alongside Jewish parliamentarian Siamak Mara-Sedq, urged Israel to do its part to return quiet and security to the region.
The chairman of Iran's Jewish Union, Rahmatullah Raafi, said the community had come out in support of the Palestinian people.
"We are here to express out support and sympathy for the Palestinian nation," he said, adding that Muslim nations could rise up as a single large force against Israel. He also said that the victors of the current conflict were the residents of Gaza.
Israeli sources familiar with the Iranian Jewish community suspect that the demonstration was organized by the government in Tehran, and does not represent that actual stance of Iranian Jews.
Some 25,000 Jews still live in Iran. Many have visited Israel, where a large percentage of the community has immigrated in the past 30 years. Still, others prefer to remain in Iran. There are rarely reports of the community suffering from antagonism or aggression from their neighbors or from the government.
Yeah Iran must be a terrible place to allow Jews unfettered lives where they can travel to Israel and back, where that can gather in a large group to protest. Protest what? The horrific actions of the Israeli government.
So should we turn this traitorous bastard s into the Mossad? Or just kill them as terrorist sympathizers?
Imagine that Jews living in a supposedly tyrannical anti Jewish state protesting against Israel. What is the world comming to.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 10:33am PT
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051317.html
Last update - 13:24 31/12/2008
GIDEON LEVY / The IAF, bullies of the clear blue skies
By Gideon Levy
Tags: Gaza, Israel News, Hamas
Our finest young men are attacking Gaza now. Good boys from good homes are doing bad things. Most of them are eloquent, impressive, self-confident, often even highly principled in their own eyes, and on Black Saturday dozens of them set out to bomb some of the targets in our "target bank" for the Gaza Strip.
They set out to bomb the graduation ceremony for young police officers who had found that rare Gaza commodity, a job, massacring them by the dozen. They bombed a mosque, killing five sisters of the Balousha family, the youngest of whom was 4. They bombed a police station, hitting a doctor nearby; she lies in a vegetative state in Shifa Hospital, which is bursting with wounded and dead. They bombed a university that we in Israel call the Palestinian Rafael, the equivalent of Israel's weapons developer, and destroyed student dormitories. They dropped hundreds of bombs out of blue skies free of all resistance.
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In four days they killed 375 people. They did not, and could not, distinguish between a Hamas official and his children, between a traffic cop and a Qassam launch operator, between a weapons cache and a health clinic, between the first and second floors of a densely populated apartment building with dozens of children inside. According to reports, about half of the people killed were innocent civilians. We're not complaining about the pilots' accuracy, it cannot be otherwise when the weapon is a plane and the objective is a tiny, crowded strip of land. Our excellent pilots are effectively bullies now. As in training flights, they bomb undisturbed, facing neither an air force nor defense system.
It is hard to judge what they are thinking, how they feel. It's unlikely to be relevant, anyway. They are measured by their actions. In any event, from an altitude of thousands of feet the picture looks as sterile as a Rorschach inkblot. Lock onto the target, press the button and then a black column of smoke. Another "successful hit." None see the effects on the ground of their actions. Their heads must surely be filled with Gaza horror stories - they themselves have never been there - as if there aren't a million and a half people living there who only want to live with a minimum of honor, some of them young like themselves, with dreams of studying, working, raising a family but who have no chance to fulfill their dreams with or without the bombing.
Do the pilots think about them, the children of refugees whose parents and grandparents have already been driven from their lives? Do they think about the thousands of people they have left permanently disabled in a place without a single hospital worthy of the name and no rehabilitation centers at all? Do they think about the burning hatred they are planting not only in Gaza but in other corners of the world amid the horrific images on television?
It was not the pilots who decided to go to war, but they are the subcontractors. The real accounting must be with the decision makers, but the pilots are their partners. When they return home they will be welcomed with all the respect and honor we reserve for them. It appears that not only will no one try to provoke moral questioning among them, but that they are considered the real heroes of this cursed war. The Israel Defense Forces spokesman is already going over the top with praise in his daily briefings for the "wonderful work" they are doing. He too, of course, completely ignores the images from Gaza. After all, these are not sadistic Border Police officers beating up Arabs in the alleys of Nablus and the center of Hebron, or cruel undercover soldiers who shoot their targets point-blank in cold blood. These, as we have said, are our finest young men.
Maybe if they were to confront the results of their "wonderful work" even once they would regret their decisions, they would reconsider the effects of their actions. If they were to go just once to Jerusalem's Alyn Hospital Pediatric and Adolescent Rehabilitation Center, where for nearly three years Marya Aman, 7, has been hospitalized - she is a quadriplegic who runs her wheelchair, and her life, with her chin - they would be shocked. This adorable little girl was hit by a missile in Gaza that killed almost her entire family, the handiwork of our pilots.
But all of this is well hidden from the pilots' eyes. They are only doing their job, as the saying goes, only following orders like bombing machines. In the past few days they have excelled at this, and the results are there for the entire world to see. Gaza is licking its wounds, just like Lebanon before it, and almost no one pauses for a moment to ask whether all this is necessary, or unavoidable, or whether it contributes to Israel's security and moral image. Is it really the case that our pilots return safely to base, or are they in fact returning to them as callous, cruel and blind people?
Ho Man a Jew bashing Jews! What is the world coming to? Better get Fatty's friends to find and hunt down this terrorist sympathizer. Quick before this traitorous peace movement grows.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 11:00am PT
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Well Skipper you certainly deserved the Bush administration. And by your reasoning YOU are as guilty of their war crimes and atrocities as the Bush administration is. You voted for the terrorist fool thus you are guilty too. Pack your bags for a trip to the Hague big boy.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 31, 2008 - 11:06am PT
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It seem the PLO or whatever name it goes by now is feeding info to the Israelis on where to hit Hamas. Just a bunch of career criminals leading the Paleos.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 31, 2008 - 11:15am PT
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one question: what would a "proportionate response" be?
see, this is the kind of vague rhetoric that liberals use when they have no answers...like in the buildup to the iraq war: "we need to try diplomacy a little longer" but nobody would ever say exactly how long
What Would a Proportionate Response Look Like?
Michael J. Totten - 12.30.2008 - 11:19 PM
“If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it, and I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.” – President-elect Barack Obama
Now that Hamas’s long war against Israel is matched with a short war in Gaza, protests are erupting everywhere from the blogosphere and Arab capitals to the United Nations, and they began on the very first day. Salon.com blogger Glenn Greenwald calls the Israeli retaliation to more than a year of rocket attacks a “massively disproportionate response.” UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay “strongly condemned Israel’s disproportionate use of force.” The Israeli counterattack is, indeed, disproportionate, but it could hardly be otherwise. “At last count,” J.G. Thayer wrote, “one Israeli and two Palestinians (sisters, ages 13 and 5) died from rocket attacks. So a proportionate response, one presumes, would have required Israel to kill a single Palestinian and two of its own citizens.”
There were, I suppose, other “proportionate” responses available aside from killing one Palestinian and two Israelis. The Israel Defense Forces might have launched thousands of air strikes against targets in Gaza to match the thousands of Qassam rockets fired at the cities of Sderot and Ashkelon. It’s unlikely, however, that this is what Israel’s critics have in mind.
So what do they have in mind? What would a legitimate and “proportionate” response actually look like? Surely they don’t believe Israel should scrap its sophisticated weapons systems, build Qassam rockets, and launch those at Gaza instead.
The “disproportionate response” crowd doesn’t seem to mind that Israel struck back at Hamas per se. They aren’t saying Israel should only be allowed to negotiate with its enemies or that any use of force whatsoever is wrong. They’re clearly saying Israel should use less force, inflict less damage, or both.
One problem here is that it’s not at all clear how they think Israelis should go about doing it. The weapons used by each side can’t be the same. No one has ever said Israel ought to put its superior weapons systems in cold storage until Hamas can develop or purchase something similar. Presumably Israel is allowed to use its superior technology as long as the casualty count on each side is proportionate.
But how would that work in practice? A single Israeli air strike is going to kill at least as many people as Hamas can kill in twelve months. Does that mean Israel should be given a “license” of one air strike per year to use in the war? If IDF commanders want to take out a target where they expect five Hamas leaders or fighters to be killed, do they have to wait until five Israelis are killed first? If the Israelis endure rocket fire until one civilian is killed, do they get a “kill one Palestinian terrorist” coupon?
If strict proportionality isn’t necessary, what are the limits? If the Israelis kill two Palestinians for every Israeli that’s killed, is that okay? Or is doubling the number of casualties on each side too unfair to the Palestinians?
No army in the history of human civilization has ever hamstrung itself with these kind of restrictions in wartime, but let’s leave that aside for the moment and assume the IDF should be the first. Maybe Israeli commanders will be swayed by the legion of bloggers, Arab street radicals, and United Nations apparatchiks. What, precisely, should be the limits and rules of proportionate war? If critics expect to be taken seriously, they will need to advise.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Dec 31, 2008 - 11:18am PT
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"You get the government you deserve."
This has got to be on the top of my "Stupidest Statements of 2008" List, if I had such a list. Certainly, it's toppled "Why Do You Hate America?"(serious version, not sarcastic/cynical version).
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 31, 2008 - 11:25am PT
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 11:47am PT
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Beautiful pic Survival.
Makes me think of the recent Everest Peace Project.
Israelis and Palestinians climbing together in the highest crucible of truth on the planet.
They became greta friends.
Sadly the Israelis, former IDF soldiers were black listed and censured when they went home for fraternizing with the enemy.
Go figure. Anyway thanx for keepin' it real!
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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Can't we all just get along.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 11:50am PT
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Apparently knot.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 11:58am PT
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1UEjgXfYdw
Please take the time to watch this seven minute power point presentation.
Hard to refute the intentions of Israeli and Zionist towards the Arabs when you can read their exact words for yourself.
Given the fury created by the OP I particularly appreciate the comment by Albert Einstein (you know that Jewish American egg head relativist. He clearly equates the policies and methodologies of the Herut political party with the Nazis.
I didn't say it ALBERT EINSTEIN did. So go kick him in the balls if you can't handle the truth.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 31, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
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Meanwhile Hamas wanted to make sure the Christians weren't feeling left out..
Both Iran and its Hamas proxy in Gaza have been busy this Christmas week showing Christendom just what they think of it. But no one seems to have noticed.
On Tuesday, Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Shari'a criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, it legalizes crucifixion.
Hamas's endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad. Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn't feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools. So on Wednesday, Hamas lobbed a mortar shell at the Erez crossing point into Israel just as a group of Gazan Christians were standing on line waiting to travel to Bethlehem for Christmas.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 12:25pm PT
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And just to continue to "keep it Real"
Here is a 5 & 1/2 minute power point presentation of the pre 1947 Palestinians.
OOOh they look dangerous just like the blood thirsty terrorists some of you think they are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjEBQ_bE7uA&NR=1
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 31, 2008 - 12:48pm PT
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Yep Riley, it is very sobering. It is a vicious cycle.
The palistinians and the Israelis are shooting below the belt. No side is innocent in this. The palistinians got fed up with being treated like dirt so they got rid of their government who often capitulated to Israel and voted in Hamas. Now they are reaping the consequences of that.
Yet Israel is reaping the consequences of their behavior towards the Palistinians. Many of their acts were criminal. I point especially to the bulldozing of homes of innocent people.
If you act like a bully, then the other side is going to eventually try to bully back.
And then you end up in a vicious cycle.
I would like to see the Palistinians make a concerted effort to stop the rockets.
I would also like to see the Israelis start treating the Palistinians like their law commands. Love your neighbor as yourself. From Leviticus 19:18. They need to stop bulldozing innocent people's homes and they need to pay restitution for those homes that they have bulldozed. This would go a long way towards healing the rifts. They need to stop annexing land just because they have the power to do so. They need to stop bombing hospitals and schools.
And yes, before those who blindly support Israel chime in, the Palistinians need to stop the rocket launches and the human bombs.
The thing that people need to understand is that Palistine does not have a super strong central government. They have more of a tribal government, so most likely what needs to occur is that the UN send in troops to keep the peace. Then create a police force of both Palistinians and UN members and prosecute anyone who launches rockets.
Someone tried to say earlier that the blacks in America never resorted to terrorism and that eventually we started treating them better, yet this ignores the riots that occurred in my cities. Those riots eventually underscored the terrible ways we were mistreating the Blacks and the average American woke up and said we needed to stop this.
The average Israeli is going to have to wake up and see the terrible things that their government has been doing in the name of safety just as the average Palistinian is going to have to wake up and see that the rockets that Hamas fires are doing their cause no good.
What also will need to happen is that the average world citizen will have to wake up and tell both sides to knock it off or we will send in UN troops. Then we will have to stand behind our word and some of our boys will die to try and create peace in this region.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 12:56pm PT
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Very well said John. I concur completely.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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Philo's PROPAGANDA? My propaganda Blue?
These are the words of Israel's founders and leaders NOT mine. Please explain how that is MY propaganda.
You ball-less twit!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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Specifically and exactly what info of mine do you finally feel is correct Jeff?
In light of the statements of the founders and leaders of Israel and the Zionist movement presented in Israeli History X it is impossible to believe that the "ENTIRE" Jewish population has agreed to share anything.
Prove otherwise! Refute the statements of leading Jews presented in that power point.
The hardcore radicals of the Zionist movement will NEVER allow a peace deal with those they intend to eliminate. They will ceaselessly dangle carrots only to yank them away and then blame the Palestinians for the failure.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 31, 2008 - 01:59pm PT
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Philo, The same could be said of the hardcore leaders of Hamas.
The thing is, so much hurt has gone on for so long that people are willing to follow any radical leader. This is true of both the Israelis and the Palistinians. What will need to happen is that people like the jewish grandmother you spoke about will need to assert their influence.
How many jewish grandmothers and palistinian grandmothers would it take to lay down the law and say that we will not fight each other anymore?
Then add in Jewish wives and Palistinian wives and this could end.
...........
Blue, if you looked at the video that Philo linked, you will see that it is simply the words of jewish leaders. They are as violent words as any spoken by any Arab. Watch it and see for yourself.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:07pm PT
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I've not kept up with ST over the holidays but feel compelled to make a point or two on this thread since it is a subject of personal, spiritual and academic interest to me for over thirty years.
But first of all Philo, I want to express my strong sympathy toward you and your wife for what must be one of the most heart wrenching experiences of your lives.
The Utube link of vintage photographs is outstanding and beautiful and I urge everyone to view it.
The title of the thread is, of course, provocative by design and sets into action plenty of rash judgements, but for much of the world the history of this conflict remains shrouded in prejudice and propaganda. I can understand Scabang's methodology in reaching back in (modern) history, even if I think it is unnecessarily alienating.
I am a Christian. Not long after my conversion, while in college, I believe God revealed a shallow prejudice toward Arabs in my being while I was standing in a retail store check-out line. Behind me was a Saudi. I then took the step to introduce myself and over a period of weeks came to be included in the social fabric of a large group of Middle Eastern Muslim Students, including Palistinians. I observed their worship every Friday night and dialoged late into the evenings on the subjects of religion and politics. I cannot express what a positive, powerful, endearing experience that was for me.
I just want to make some important distinctions. When we sight a cliff, we are able to separate the paths of choss from patina, crack from groove, polish from grit. In such a complex subject as this, the starting place is to identify features and pathways which present access and ascent.
1. Ancient Israel should be distinguished from modern Zionism. The term "Israel" is very worthy of an in-depth exegesis, Genesis through Revelation. It won't wash to ignorantly justify atrocities by glibly quoting Gen 12:3 (I will bless those who bless you ("Israel")and curse those who curse you). Jesus has strong, trumping condemnations for those who justify cruelty and injustice on the basis of "religious grounds."
2. Western Christians who often cite purely theistic affinities for supporting Zionist goals should recognize that many, even most, modern Zionists, are, in fact secularized atheists and agnostics.
3. Speaking again to Christians, we should be careful to note the inclusion of Arabs among the early Christians (Acts 2:11), as indeed there are Arab Christians today.
4. We need to distinguish between the widely varied nationalities, cultures, histories and hopes of modern Muslims, recognizing it is not at all homogenous. edit: similarly, Judaism.
5. We should recognize the defining role of revenge, hatred, every kind of evil prejudice, greed, and ethnic/religious pride to nearly every facet of the discussion. It has been within the power of modern Israel to initiate and extend educational, economic and medical "peace incentives," but we have not seen this. Similarly, we in America should own up to our historical complicities and at least present a searching and fair-minded national soul.
Much shame and no easy answers my friends. Personally, I'm still looking skyward for the return of the Messiah, hoping that "redemption draweth nigh,"
Bruce Adams
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:08pm PT
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Alright, break it up, move on...nothing to see.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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Bruce, while you post is beautiful and true, it may be inappropriate to people like me.
I hold no grudges towards Arabs, but I do question the motives of SOME Zionists...some.
It has little to do with the current conflict though IMO.
Nice thoughts on your part though. I mean that.
Hey Chris, is she a Zionist? Me likee.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:25pm PT
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Thank you Bruce for your kind and intelligent words. It really choked me up.
And yes my wife lost friends and family in the last 5 days!
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
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Thanks Blue--no personal missiles intended amid this tough subject. My comments are admittedly general and incremental.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:44pm PT
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come on, philo, bruno, moosie, etc., after a YEAR of rocket attacks, including over 200 in just two weeks after a "truce" ended (note that hamas never stopped firing rockets throughout the truce), what response would you condone? tell me, what should the israelis have done? nothing? what, do you think hamas would have gotten bored? seen the error of their ways? decided money spent on rockets and anti-semitic children's tv programming would be better spent on building hospitals or improving infrastructure? ok, you don't like israel's response...tell us, then, what should they have done?
and where was your precious un or eu or the media during the past year? actually, where were YOU? your silence on the hamas rocket attacks and your current outrage at israel's attempts to stop the attacks is, to say the least, curiouser and curiouser...one might infer that you support arab violence against israelis...or that you generally support a group with a long history of violence, including bomb attacks that target civilians, including children...please, persuade me otherwise
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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Bookworm, Why not try to understand what provoked the rocket attacks? Do you think that this is all just one sided? No truce has ever been completely trouble free, from both sides, and to punish the many for the acts of the few is foolish.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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John, it was one-sided, even Egypt and the UN secretary admit that (as well as just about every other world leader).
They have to go publicly and say that Israel should have constraint though for political purposes, which everyone (including them) knows is bullshit rhetoric.
Hamas went too far and is being dealt with. It's unfortunate for the civilians caught in the middle though.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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I have always opposed violence and the actions of Hamas, thank you.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:58pm PT
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What do you mean Jeff statements presented in Israeli History X are as recent as 2001.
Like this telling little gem by Sharon in 2001 and I quote
"Everytime we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that...
I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America and the Americans know it.
What happened in the following seven years to soften this long held dream and agenda of Zionism?
Author:
bookworm
Social climber
From: Falls Church, VA
come on, philo, bruno, moosie, etc., after a YEAR of rocket attacks, including over 200 in just two weeks after a "truce" ended (note that hamas never stopped firing rockets throughout the truce), what response would you condone? tell me, what should the israelis have done? nothing? what, do you think hamas would have gotten bored? seen the error of their ways? decided money spent on rockets and anti-semitic children's tv programming would be better spent on building hospitals or improving infrastructure? ok, you don't like israel's response...tell us, then, what should they have done?
and where was your precious un or eu or the media during the past year? actually, where were YOU? your silence on the hamas rocket attacks and your current outrage at israel's attempts to stop the attacks is, to say the least, curiouser and curiouser...one might infer that you support arab violence against israelis...or that you generally support a group with a long history of violence, including bomb attacks that target civilians, including children...please, persuade me otherwise
They could have ended the Illegal occupation and quit annexing the best of the Palestinian land for settlement development. They could have allowed the Palestinians dignity and justice. These options would go vastly farther towards peace than all the weapons of mass destruction that Israel possesses and hammers the imprisoned Palestinians with, which is quite obviously NOT working. And never will.
or that you generally support a group with a long history of violence, including bomb attacks that target civilians, including children...please, persuade me otherwise
You support Israel and the Jews have a far longer history of violence to "The Others.
What is the difference.
.one might infer that you support arab violence against israelis.
Bookworm have you bothered to actually read any of my post? Or do you just read into them?
Nothing I have ever said condones violence on either side. My saying I understand the plight of the Palestinians is merely the equivalent of the chanted mantra of Israel has a right to defend itself. What's the difference?
When I say "Never again" I mean never again to anyone. When the Israelis say it they mean never again to them.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
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And Blew, EVEN FATTRAD hasn't and can't refute the statements in Israeli History X.
Why are you so desperate to try? You look foolish and ignorant trying.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
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Hey Blew, this is from your posted link of Ben Gurion.
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them".
Speech in 1937, accepting a British proposal for partition of Palestine which created a potential Jewish majority state, as quoted in New Outlook (April 1977)
Again where is the propaganda in presenting their own words.
This people said these things. The truth often hurts but where is the distortion?
Do you need me to pick apart your links sentence by sentence for you so you can understand?
If you had a shred of historical knowledge I figure you would think the besieged citizens of Stalingrad should have been more severely punished by the Nazis for sneaking food, medicine and materiel over the frozen ice which kept the entire city from starving to death and falling into German hands. You would have wanted them punished because after all they were not citizens or even humans they were damned dirty communists.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:26pm PT
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Philo, do you agree that Gurion statement that, " We must expel the Arabs and take their place" is untrue?
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them".
What's the problem with that statement?
EDIT: If you like that link so much, I wonder why you don't post more quotes from it....
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:32pm PT
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No! He said those things to a world stage only after his more private statements were made public. It was in his interest as it has been in the state of Israel's interest to lie to the world about their true intentions.
Not even Fattrad can refute that.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
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So they didn't 'lie' about the other quote you posted? Aren't the Zionists supposed to control all that media?
Do you have a valid link verifying Gurion actually publicly said that about Arabs?
"No! He said those things to a world stage "
I'll need proof of that, everything I see says otherwise.
From Philo's new favorite link...
We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on (14 May 1948)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:40pm PT
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I should also point out you're getting pretty far off topic with all this rhetoric from a largely different time and mindset.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:41pm PT
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Then open your eyes.
Apparently the last eight years of the Bush administration has left you unable to recognize a lie.
Really do you think 2001 is ancient history in terms of rhetoric?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:41pm PT
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Bluering, When you combine it with the knowledge of Israel's historic practices of tactics designed to get people to give up their vision, such as depriving them of water, then you can start to see the hidden meanings.
They are saying that no one will tell them what to do, period. Including continuing their admitted program of having a greater Israel. They just try to say that they will not use force, then they use all kinds of underhanded tactics in the name of defending themselves. They say "Your cousin is a terrorist, , then we will bulldoze your house" is just one type example. There are plenty of others. It is designed to break the will of a people so that they will capitulate to anything.
What happens is that a powerless people resort to guerrilla/terrorist tactics. And a never ending cycle is begun.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
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John, why doesn't Egypt help them?
Why do Egyptian border guards regularly shoot Palestinians crossing?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:44pm PT
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Do you have a valid link verifying Gurion actually publicly said that about Arabs?
"No! He said those things to a world stage "
I'll need proof of that, everything I see says otherwise.
I'm still waiting.....
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:49pm PT
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Blue if Fattrad, the staunchest supportr of Israel and Aipac on ST won't and can't refute these statements why are you so desperate to try.
Like your inane statement that Hamas has killed thousands and thousands of Israeli citizens with their rockets that you doggedly adhered to. You were and are wrong and refuse to accept it.
I ask again why is this so important for you?
What stake do you hold in this conflict?
How many family and friends did you lose in the last five days on either side of the conflict.
For us it has been 5 so far and probably up to 15.
Happy New Year. Shalom!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:55pm PT
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Philo, Fatty didn't post the propaganda (probably didn't even watch it), it's up to you to give me some reliable historical record of that statement that I refuted pretty quickly.
It's crap and you know it!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
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philo,
Then why did Sharon hand over Gaza?
So that no Jewish people would be in the way of the destruction involved in invasion.
Because the collective thinking is "we don't want to be outbirthed", the only solution to that is the one the Germans used on us. That's why the current fence line is it.
That is a very telling comment Jeff. How soon will you be shipping the ovens over?
Give up on the Israel wants it all rant, that's old history. Now if Islam could give up on the Saladin solution everything would be ok.
Sharon, Nutt n yahoo, Ehud Barak all made statements to this effect in the 21st century. And to you that is old history. Yet somehow you want to convince us that modern Arabs are clinging to a mythical 12th century "Saladin solution".
Please spare me the lunatic duality of that ridiculous statement.
Jody's evil twin
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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So just to be clear to the few Arab hating, Palestinian bashing, hate filled war mongers here on the Taco Stand.
I on my own business. I can send my crew out to do what ever work needs to be done. Which gives me more than ample time to counter, refute and challenge what ever misinformation and lies you care to spew forth. I will spend the next twenty years stepping on your toes at every turn. I am a accomplished researcher and avid student of history and geo-politics. I am also a notorious insomniac. So go ahead and go for it spew all you want till you get worn out or down. I have NO intent to allow you to malign the Palestinians and lie about this conflict. I will be there every day, everystep of the way.
The Truth is out there, the truth will set you free.
Please go ahead I am waiting.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:20pm PT
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Blue, why don't we help mexicans who just want jobs? The problem is large and if Egypt just opened up their borders, then they would have a flood of refugees. It is ugly in Gaza. Many people want to leave because they are powerless. One of the things the Israel has done has shut down most possibilities of economic rebuilding.
This is an on going problem and the thing I am hoping that you will see is that Israel is not innocent in this process. So don't paint it black and white and say that Hamas must act first before Israel will pretend to act nice. There are news stories after news stories about how Israel has mistreated these people, even during so called truces. They just don't get much play in America because we have a vested interest in making Israel look good.
None of this means Hamas is innocent. There are not.
But try to see the frustration of a people who have been kicked out of their own homes when Israel was created. Not given any land or if given land, then it is poor land with no water. Then when they try political means to get redress, they are ignored for years and years. So some of them resort to terrorism and then all of them are blamed and Israel punishes the whole group.
So they vote in a more radical leadership and the cycle of violence continues.
Israel is not innocent in this. In the last 20 years a lot of things that they have done in the name of defending themselves have actually been about vengeance.
They aren't going after the terrorist, which many could support. They are exacting vengeance on a people.
Yes it is easy to understand why they are doing it. They are tired of being a whipping dog. Their plight was ignored by the world before WW2, and now that they have power. But this power does not give them the right to try and destroy a people even if 5 percent of those people are causing serious problems.
Look closer into zionism and you will start to understand some of what I am saying.
I will end by saying that Hamas needs to stop the rockets. World pressure needs to be applied to get them to stop. Israel must also stop its aggressive acts and world pressure must be brought to bare on them.
The problem is that many people in America are ignorant of the situation in places like gaza. They watch a 30 second news blip of a rocket attack and don't look at the underlying causes.
Yes Sharon gave up Gaza, because of world pressure. So Israel began a process of cutting them off, in the name of defense. They use brutal tactics in the name of stopping terrorism, but their tactics do nothing to actually stop the terrorist. They actually inflame the situation.
If you look for underlying reasons that they would inflame a situation, then look at zionism. The history is all there to see.
Now I have to go. Please try Blue, to see both sides of the argument. Both sides are deeply frustrated. It is beyond ugly and neither side is innocent. I think that a UN peacekeeping force will have to be brought in if this overt violence does not end soon. That will of course not end the covert violence. Public pressure and a waking up of the people will be required for that.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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philo,
Poked around a bit.
From everything I've found Guron did not say the statement in question at a speech or in public.
But he did write it in a letter to his son.
Passing on to future generations.....the past means nothing at all Jeff!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:36pm PT
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The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.
Speech in 1937, accepting a British proposal for partition of Palestine which created a potential Jewish majority state, as quoted in New Outlook (April 1977)
Notice that is says "speech". And unless he gave speeches in a closet that would make it public. though it only took 40 years for it to be made fully public.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:37pm PT
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I was referring to...
" We must expel the Arabs and take their place"
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
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"Prior to Hamas seizing power from Fatah, the people of Gaza were not "cut off"."
I like how you replace the concept of seizing for what actually happened, an open election that Israel was not happy with at all.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:58pm PT
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It actually might have been.
The Pals elected Hammas, not because they promised to kick Israel's ass (which is what allot of Israel's apologists want you to believe), because Fatah was/is corrupt beyond all recognition and did nothing to help the everyday Pal. Hammas did. They were doing the humanitarian work Fatah should have been.
Once Hammas gained power the pooch got screwed by Israel's insistence that no one have anything to do with the newly elected government and that the election was illegitimate.
If that government had been taken seriously and given the legitimacy it needed from the rest of the world you'd have something or someone to take to task when sh#t hits the fan. But instead there is a loose coalition of factions in Gaza that can only be responded to with more violence since there is no central pillar of power.
And I'm sure this will all happen again. Things will "quiet" down. An election will be held and Israel will not be happy with the outcome.
Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.......
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 05:11pm PT
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Here is another classic Ben Gurion quote.
" If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel.
It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promissed it ot us, but how could that interest them? Our goal is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: We have come and stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime minister) (The Jewish Paradox)
And here is a speech addressed to Ben Gurion by a noted Jewish philosopher in 1949
"We will have to face the reality that Israel is neither innocent, nor redemptive. And that in it's creation, and expansion; we as Jews, have caused what we historically have suffered; A refugee population in Diaspora."
And the same learned Jewish philosopher later said in 1968.
"When we [followers of the prophetic Judaism] returned to Palestine...The majority of the Jewish people preferred to learn from Hitler rather than from us."
And one of my all time favorites.
"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the Freedom Party(Herut), a political party closely akin in it's organization, method, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties."
Albert Einstein 1948.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Where do you suppose this came from and when?
EDIT
From our 1974 class project. . . .
Funny how things have hardly changed in 35 years
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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what is it supposed to be? who is it from/to? what lends it authenticity other than the archaic appearance?
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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" Where do you suppose this came from and when? "
10 to one it is from one of the uncountable resolutions against Israel that were completely ignored( most likely from mid 70's).
Did some more research regarding events that led up to the current hostilities.
So who violated the cease fire and started this latest round of bull sh#t? Whom or what group will gain the most from this latest round of hostilities?
Read and use the 10% alloted...
Pretty much nails it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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There is a UN resolution regarding the borders of Israel and demands they return to them. UN resolution 242. Never been rescinded.
But we can't face things like this and don't know how to deal with them. Yes it's bad that Hamas fires rockets into nearby Israeli towns and settlements. The question I don't see being asked is "Which Israel is being rocketed by Hamas? 1948 Israel? Post 1967 Israel? Or even later settlements?
Is there any Illegal Israeli settlement that is considered a legit target by anybody? If not, how can folks consider it OK for Israel to deal so much death and destruction from the air in Gaza, killing lots of kids in the process? They have such military superiority that destruction through airstrikes must be for convenience and safety's sake no?
Seems like a big double standard to me. As long as Israel keeps expanding illegal settlements, against any and all agreements with the world and the US, how can they be regarded as faultless in this violence?
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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All of California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Texas, New Mexico and parts of Colorado, Oklahoma, Wyoming, and Kansas were all STOLEN from Mexico.
But if Mexicans started shooting thousands of rockets over the border at American cities such as San Diego, Tucson, Yuma and El Paso, you can bet that America would take much stronger action then what we're seeing Israel take in Gaza.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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...terrorism seems to be the national sport of the Muslim.
Looking at it that way my anxiety is reduced
to zero when seeing the news. Its just another sports
commentary on winners and losers.
40-love Serve.......wap.......Blam!!!
Your serve Muslim...
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Keep pounding on them Israel.
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Avishai
Mountain climber
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Actually, every time I call Israel, the automated message there is in German. . . .
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oh where to start.....
How about with Granite climber.
"All of California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Texas, New Mexico and parts of Colorado, Oklahoma, Wyoming, and Kansas were all STOLEN from Mexico".
Actually the land was taken from the indigenous Americans, you know injuns.
But if Mexicans started shooting thousands of rockets over the border at American cities such as San Diego, Tucson, Yuma and El Paso, you can bet that America would take much stronger action then what we're seeing Israel take in Gaza".
While there is a correlation between Americas "Manifest Destiny" and Zionist expansion the two situations are not at all the same.
The difference is the Mexicans have a free country to live in, and the indians live in autonomous regions free to travel and express them selves.
What would be the pretext for them to attack us? Those of you who want to correlate these other situations to Gaza are either ignorant of history or blind to the present. You are pawns of a brilliant PR campaign.
Next...
Corniss Chopper.
"..terrorism seems to be the national sport of the Muslim".
For you to say that indicates absolutely NO understanding of Islam. And no understanding about the conditions under this illegal occupation. Or of an occupied peoples legal right to resist.
"Looking at it that way my anxiety is reduced
to zero when seeing the news. Its just another sports
commentary on winners and losers".
Glad you have no anxiety about War Crimes, Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide.
How many family members and friends have you lost in this, apparently to you, righteous revenge of Israels? Want to know the death toll for my wife?
"40-love Serve.......wap.......Blam!!!
Your serve Muslim"...
How about I say Israel didn't learn from their embarrassingly bloodied nose in Lebannon so bring it on. More dead Jews!
Onward...
WoodySt.
"Keep pounding on them Israel'.
This would be tantamount to me saying WOO HOO more dead Jews everytime a rocket kills one or a suicide bomber kills several. But that would be inhumane of me right? Because you all know all Jews are innocent victims of terrorism and perpetually under the threat of extermination. And conversely you all know that every Arab is a blood thirsty murderer bent on the destruction of Israel. That all Arabs want all non Muslims to convert or be killed. That they are comming to get you. That the Palestinians have no right to a home land. And that every single Palestinian child is taught from birth how to kill Jews with nothing more than their teeth. Which is about all you will allow them to have. Which is why you see teenagers throwing stones at tanks. We found that Noble and Honorable when the Slovaks were battling against the Soviet Union's invasion. We even found it poignant when the Chinese protester stood in front of the Chinese tank column.
But not the hopeless Palestinians. They are afforded no such humanity. You have been taught only one story line here, filled with myth, disinformation and out right bald faced lies. I am beginning to see why you same folks think Public Education in America has failed.
The truth is if they had a loaf of bread they wouldn't throw at a tank! But when you endeavor to starve a people into submission you get what you deserve!
So here goes....
GO HAMAS GO! KILL MORE JEWS! KILL THEM ALL! DRIVE THEM INTO THE SEA. EXTERMINATE THEM ALL! MORE AND BETTER ROCKETS! MORE SUICIDE BOMBERS!
KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL. KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL,!!!!!!!!
Now doesn't that sound almost as absurd as your all's cheering the converse?
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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philo,
Challenge anyone who keeps cheering for more Palestinian deaths to say the things they type here directly to your relatives.
And anyone who cheers for Israeli deaths should have to say that directly to someone who has family directly affected by this.
Then we'd see where people really stand!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Karl,
The problem with 242 is that it also calls for secure borders for Israel. The borders didn't seem too secure in 1967 or 1974, so Israel expanded them a bit, the current fence line seems about right and the supremes have made reasonable adjustments.
Jody's evil twin
No Jeff the problem with UN resolution 242 as well as with scores of other UN sanctions is that Israel refuses to comply. The wars of 67 and 74 were we started "preemptively" by the Israelis not the Arabs. These wars were not defensive but offensive. They were a land grab pure and simple.
And you keep referring to it as a "fence" which sounds so quaint and benign.
But that "fence" dwarfs the Berlin Wall, making that attrocity seem like a neighborly place to gossip.
That is NO FENCE. It is a prison wall! And it isn't placed with the intent of security for Israel but rather a deliberate annexation of Palestinian land. It is erected to disenfranchise the Palestinians further and further. Look at the actual and intended line of the "FENCE". The "fence" that our tax dollars are paying for to the tune of three million dollars a mile. The only logic to the line of that "fence" is to imprison the Palestinians in an un-viable Bantustan existence with absolutely NO HOPE of a State of their own.
It is not a "fence" Jeff it is a CRIME!
Please oh wise and powerful Jeffe explain to us why prior to the founding of the State of Israel that Jews and Arabs and Christian and Aramaians all coexisted on this land as they do today in cities all over the world and right here in America?
Go reread the words of your founders and leaders for a clue.
Lastly Jeff if you lost family or friends in a Gazan rocket attack I wouldn't gloat and call for more.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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And Jeff, there are countless times were Jewish Rabbis call for the wanton killing of Muslims.
Your point is a non starter.
Both sides are f*#ked up.
It's just that you can not see the proverbial forrest through the trees.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Religious leaders like the Rabbis who continuously preach hate and destruction of the Arabs? Please don't insult me by trying to deny that many religious leaders on all sides
are radical hate mongering instigators.
Every heard of Rabbi Firestone Jeff? She is extremely active in the PEACE movement. Which has garnered her extreme criticism and death threats from JEWS!
She is one of my wifes best friends. Imagine that a Jewish Rabbi and a Christian Palestinians as friends working towards PEACE together. Oh GOD what is the world coming to. PEACE I hope!
Anyway she would gladly discuss and debate Hebrew theology, Jewish history and the humanitarian crises of the illegal occupation with you. Though I very much doubt you have the ammo for a serious debate on the real issues. You are only capable of perpetuating the disinformation of your beloved AIPAC.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jeff,
You sound like the hate monger you always have been.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"I can see both sides of this conflict. Its quite simple":
NO you can't see both sides. And NO it is not quite simple.
"Any American who actively supports either side has traded patriotism for something else entirely. YOU are going to drag us down".
What is more American than standing up for PEACE and JUSTICE?
"So stop it - all of you. Unless you're willing to travel to the mid East and take up arms yourselves, STFU about Israel and Palestine and let them have it out. Its not our affair".
DMT
Hey DingDong I guess you missed the part where I explained that my wife recently returned from nearly a month in Palestine and Israel. But you wouldn't understand because she didn't take up arms. Rather she took up ears and listened compassionately to all sides. Her American relatives have made scores of trips there with Christian Peace teams. She has lost at least a dozen family and friends in this latest round of bloodshed.
So you see IT IS OUR AFFAIR! Who else among the STers has anywhere as much at stake in this as MY FAMILY?
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"What is more American than standing up for PEACE and JUSTICE? "
You are totally right philo.
That is why any actors in the conflict that are helping to perpetuate the situ need to be taken to task. Regardless of their political/religious affiliation.
That is why the US can not bee seen as an impartial arbitrator in the conflict. Too long towing the Israeli line.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Then get out and stay out like you want the US to do. It's not your concern so STFU!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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So DaftRat sounds like you are back to your rabid war mongering ways. Which Middle East cities are you suggesting be nuked?
How about Tel Aviv as a good start?
And Dingus that is the smatest most correct thing you have yet said.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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I say Israel nukes Gaza.....
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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No I was wrong Dingus that last post was the smartest thing you have offered on this thread. Perhaps I misjudged you earlier.
But if you feel that strongly perhaps you should lobby your government to divest from Israel and put real humanitarian conditions on the BILLIONS of our dollars we give them. Tell your Congressmen to show AIPAC the door. Then you can feel you are doing something you believe in.
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WBraun
climber
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Tell your Congressmen to show AIPAC the door. Then you can feel you are doing something you believe in.
Won't do one thing to fix the problem.
The problem starts with every individual.
No one knows who they really are and why they're here.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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And DaftRat Really, you are going to quote Condi "skank" Rice?
You are going to quote someone from the most discredited and corrupt administration in American History. What a tool!
Why don't you mention that Jordanian police clashed with pro Palestinian protestors who were marching towards the Israeli embassy. Or would that "clash" with your preposterous "clash of civilizations" theory.
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WBraun
climber
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I also believe you are starting to lose it Philo.
Take a break, recoup your senses, you're starting to unravel.
We do understand the gist of your pain ....
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"All of California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Texas, New Mexico and parts of Colorado, Oklahoma, Wyoming, and Kansas were all STOLEN from Mexico".
Actually the land was taken from the indigenous Americans, you know injuns.
But if Mexicans started shooting thousands of rockets over the border at American cities such as San Diego, Tucson, Yuma and El Paso, you can bet that America would take much stronger action then what we're seeing Israel take in Gaza".
While there is a correlation between Americas "Manifest Destiny" and Zionist expansion the two situations are not at all the same.
The difference is the Mexicans have a free country to live in, and the indians live in autonomous regions free to travel and express them selves.
What would be the pretext for them to attack us? Those of you who want to correlate these other situations to Gaza are either ignorant of history or blind to the present. You are pawns of a brilliant PR campaign.
Philo, much of the land was taken from Native Americans (I won't call them "injuns" like you did) but there were also areas which had been settled by Mexicans for generations. Similarly, much of the land which is now Israel was occupied not by "Palestinians" but by Bedouins.
The Mexicans might attack us if they do not accept the borders imposed by us, just like Hamas is attacking Israel because they do not accept the borders imposed by Israel.
The Israels have withdrawn from Gaza some time ago and it has been an autonomous region governed by Hamas.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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You are right Werner I am stressed to extremes and my wife is despondent.
I very much appreciate your understanding.
But try to put your self in my EBs for just a moment.
Can I really be expected to remain silent when some STers are chanting and rooting for the slaughter of innocence and the death of Justice?
If you go to the Holocaust museum they make a big point about accusing those who would not speak out. Those who stayed in silence.
I will not be one who later is accused of staying silent in the face of genocide.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Philo: "so bring it on. More dead Jews!"
This has been the attitude of Hamas. Maybe if they had a different attitude more of them would be alive today. They want to wipe out all Jews and they are the ones dying.
Philo, I hope your wife's relatives come out of this OK. I know you hate the Israelis but the fact your wife's relatives are still alive is a testament to the restraint of the Israelis. If the Israelis were as bloodthirsty and fanatical as Hamas, there would not be a single Palestinian left alive in Gaza or the West Bank. They would all be ethnically cleansed.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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DMT writes
"For many its a question of tribes. There is no more to it than that - the Israeli's are more 'like us' than are the Palestinians. And then there is that bullshit about god giving them the land - and a decent portion of Israel-supporting American morons hide behind the skirts of that one. "
That's it. Whoever is "most like us" wins.
Ironically, Israeli leaders didn't want to take Gaza in the 67 war but the military leaders took it anyway.
Peace
karl
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Pombo, McCain, Lungren... You really have a hard time picking friends Fatty. I guess you get exactly what you pay for.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"It all depends on the situation, what if Iran launched a nuke first"?
What Iranian Nuke Fatty. Where as the Iranians may (or may not) be developing a Nuclear weapon (No verifiable proof of it just innuendo, speculation and disinformation) it would take many more years for them to develop a reliable delivery system that could hit Israel. But, though Israel denies it to this day, Everyone knows that Israel already has every type of WMD including what is likely the 4th largest stock pile of nuclear weapons. Technology their spies stole from US.
Who is more likely to launch a nuke first?
"Philo, much of the land was taken from Native Americans (I won't call them "injuns" like you did)"
I called them "injuns" not out of disrespect but to highlight the racist verbage you Arab bashers regularly use
"but there were also areas which had been settled by Mexicans for generations. Similarly, much of the land which is now Israel was occupied not by "Palestinians" but by Bedouins".
Who do you think the "bedouins were? They were and are the Palestinians. Or do you believe they came from outside solely to make life miserable to Jews?
"The Mexicans might attack us"
Their only attack is by Illegal immigration.
Why don't we help them build their infrastructure? It would be cheeper that building another wall.
"The Israels have withdrawn from Gaza some time ago and it has been an autonomous region governed by Hamas".
They only withdrew their illegal unsettlers There is nothing autonomous about being subjected to three years of lock down and blockade. Can you not understand that, when not being bombed, these people are being starved to death.
"The Palestinians will flourish in their own nation on the borders Israel has established".
Jeff there is no "flourishing" in an Apartheid Bantustan.
"I know you hate the Israelis"
No Graniteclimber I do not hate Israelis. Nor do I hate Jews. Though I have no love lost for Zionist be they Jewish or Christian. I only oppose the brutal genocidal policies of the State of Israel. If they would honestly allow peaceful coexistence I would have NO problem with them.
"but the fact your wife's relatives are still alive is a testament to the restraint of the Israelis".
NO they are not all still alive. And GC it only is a testament to the reality that Gaza is an inescapable prison.
Those who leave are banned by Israel from returning. Imagine if once here we never let the Mexicans return.
"If the Israelis were as bloodthirsty and fanatical as Hamas, there would not be a single Palestinian left alive in Gaza or the West Bank. They would all be ethnically cleansed".
Which IS the long term goal of the Zionists.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"Blame the Palestinians problems on Wahabbi Clerics and Iranian Mullahs, they are the source of the problem".
Keep repeating your Mantra DaftRat eventually even you will believe it.
I prefer to hold Radical Rabbis, Rabid Zionists, American Industrialists and Ball-less American politicians responsible.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"You have your head in the sand on every issue. "
Jeff,
Sand is allot closer to Palestine than up your a*#, where your head is on any issue.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jeff,
Why refute a complete stab in the dark.
You have been wrong on every single prediction you have ever made.
There are all sorts of claims regarding Iran's capabilities - from they have the bomb now to they wont have the capability until 2015.
So pull your head out of your ass and think, Jeff.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"You have opinions here on ST, my opinions go right to the decision makers."
IF, and a big IF, what you are saying is correct, more of a reason to make sure you never hold public office. At least as it is, people in positions of power have other inputs, not just your opinion.
But I'd like to see you prove your power.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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A little pay for play with Ruddy, eh?
Come on Jeff, get one of your power buddies to post here on ST for all to see.
No third hand reports.
No "I say it there fore it is true" crap.
Get someone in power to post up!
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Yeah, right.
If you are "friends" with someone in "power" surely they can do you a favor.
Or are you out of political capital?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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With nothing left to work with DaftRat is resorting to his fall back position... Thread Drift and self pontification.
Curious thing happened last night that leads me to believe I have gotten under someone's skin.
I was out walking the dog when a nondescript sedan pulls up next to me and rolls down the window.Three guys in dark jogging suits are sitting in the vehicle. My initial thought was they were lost and wanted directions. But my dog, who is the best judge of character that I know was instantly on guard, hair raised, teeth barred and all.
But being a good civic citizen I ask if I can help. Their accents are vaguely familiar.
They proceed to ask me what I am doing, where I live, what's my name. Not really asking directions after all. Then they let it slip that they know my wife and kids names. OOPS.
Their questioning (bordering on interrogation) is just a little too personal and provocative. Knowing the Mossad's penchant for operational triads and smelling gun oil drifting from the car I put two and two together. By now my dog really wants a piece of these guys. So while holding her at bay I lean into the open window and tell them in no uncertain terms that I don't appreciate this unwarranted intrusion of my privacy. My wife is a non violent quaker. A pacifist. But being a survivor of some mean streets I am not!
I succinctly explain that I know who they are and if they approach me or my family again they will never call home to momma again. I can be fairly menacing when the need arises. So I believe they got the message loud and clear. If they had been merely street punks it is probably they would have jumped out of the car and all over me. But instead they drove off slowly, turned the corner and parked. They surveilled me till I was out of site. Haven't seem them since.
Friends of yours Fatty? If you have the connections that you endlessly pontificate that you do then I suggest you tell the thugs to back off. They have no idea who they are messing with. Let's keep this peaceful. No one want's to see the ugly Philo now do they. If I see them or any counter part comrades lurking near my home or my wife and kid's schools I won't hesitate to exact my own revenge.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"Wont't everyone be shocked when DC strolls in YellowPines. "
He never will.
...and philo nailed it.
I still want to see Jeff pull off getting a "person in power" to post here on ST.
But once again... never will happen.
Just like every other prediction Jeff has ever made or cause he has stood for. I guess someone has to be the looser.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"You were right, philo has lost it."
Jeff,
I'd watch what you say or do anymore on ST in regards to what philo posted
Remember when you threatened me by posting you were going to get the Mossad on me?
That just may come back to haunt you allot sooner than you think!
Regardless of what the reality might be.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jeff you always think I have lost it.
Why this time? Is it that you don't believe my encounter? Or that you think the Mossad is infallible and omnipotent? Please don't insult our intelligence by trying to suggest the Mossad doesn't operate in the US.
It must really irk you that Scabang's thread gets more traffic than your ridiculous CofC rants.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Simple e-mail contact to reply to.
No problem at all, Jeff.
Or would "your powerful friends" find out what you have been posting?
EDIT:
It would save everyone here allot of time if you could just do a simple thing.
Get your "powerful friends" to back you up!
Face it Jeff, you are a fraud.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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I find it interesting that I continually post legitimate information from credible, often Israeli, sources.
While Jeff posts unfounded rhetorical propaganda from the likes of Condi "skank" Rice. A member of the most discredited Presidential Administration ever. A person with a vested interest in the endless continuation of conflict.
Last update - 07:36 02/01/2009
Anshel Pfeffer / Right and Left, Diaspora Jews more critical of Israel than ever
By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent
Tags: Zionism, Hamas, Gaza
There is something very strange and more than a little frustrating for a reporter used to being on the frontlines to experience a war in Israel from afar. Having to experience the goings-on not only from the reports of one's Israeli colleagues but also through the hall of mirrors that is the international media, with its sometimes incomprehensible agenda and likes and dislikes. At least as an Israeli you know where you stand, with all the familiar personal views, loyalties and criticisms. But to be a non-Israeli Jew can be a lot more difficult during such times.
Well not for all Jews. A vast number, I hesitate to say the majority, are just not that interested. They are much busier eking out the days left of their Christmas/New Year's vacation, and news of renewed conflagration around Gaza receives only a passing register. Those who are engaged enough to really care and spend time glued to the news channels and reading every bit of information available on Web sites can be divided into three groups.
There are large number of Pavlovian flag-wavers, good and innocent Zionists and Jews who see only the trauma inflicted on the people of Sderot, Ashkelon and other parts of the country's south-west, and instinctively position themselves behind the IDF, often saying that the government should have allowed it to go in further and strike harder.
Advertisement
There is, in my impression, a somewhat smaller but highly vocal group belonging usually to the more radical left, and even fewer to the anti-Israel Neturei Karta sect, who feel compelled to atone for Israel's manifold sins and join its enemies in the demonstrations and sign petitions accusing the Zionist entity of war crimes. They have cut themselves firmly off from the local community's mainstream, and they are fine where they are.
There is, though, a third stream of Jews - perhaps not the widest one, but I believe quite significant - who have more complex and uncomfortable feelings on the matter. They care deeply for Israel and understand even why its government felt compelled to launch the devastating Operation Cast Lead, but they are extremely disturbed and hurt by the level of civilian deaths and destruction that almost seems part and parcel of the action. Surely, they say, there must, there has to be another way of doing this. And they live with those doubts, often unexpressed, even among families and close friends because the worst thing they find is that others around them don't seem to discern between the different nuances, and can't find in themselves compassion for the dead and wounded on the other side. They begin asking themselves very awkward questions: Are they surrounded by latent racists, or is something wrong with them that denies the feelings of certainty of those around them? Or does everyone have similar doubts but are simply afraid to express them?
Perhaps those in the most difficult predicament are those who work daily in Jewish and community organizations, the kind of august institutes that have already felt the need to issue those meaningless announcements that "the pan-national Jewish forum stands firmly in support of Israel." Almost constantly, they find their dearest beliefs challenged.
"I just couldn't understand how the other people in the office were just incapable of acknowledging there was any real suffering on the Palestinian side, and that Israel has a significant portion of the responsibility for that," said to me a friend working in one of those organizations in London. "I feel so alone because no one seems to understand how torn I feel about this. I understand Israel's position very well and to a degree identify with the reasons for launching the operation, but why are none of them saddened by children dying? They don't even seem to see these reports."
Two sides of the same coin
My friend found his own peace by trying to keep quiet at work but donating money to an NGO purchasing medical supplies for hospitals in Gaza.
For Jews in the U.S., things are easier. Due to the size of the community and the relative self-confidence of American Jews, there are more platforms and mid-streams that allow people to show both support and criticism at the same time, and far greater openness to individuals forming and expressing their own independent views. In smaller communities like those of Britain and France, the establishment seems to operate on a siege mentality, and the ideas of "us" and "them" are much more rigid.
Many Israelis will think that all this is indulgent bleeding-heartedness on the part of those who don't serve in the IDF and pay Israeli taxes, and their families are nowhere near the range of the Qassams and Grads: Why should we care about what they are thinking? But Israel expects support, fund-raising, lobbying and media advocacy efforts to be made by the Jews of the Diaspora on its behalf, and that can only take place in an open environment.
Ultimately, only Israel's citizens, Jewish and Arab, have the right to vote and decide, but it has to be realized that while the world's Jews are still broadly in favor of Israel, they have more information and less innocence than ever before and will give that support, but with a healthy dose of criticism - whether from the Right of the Israeli government being too namby-pamby with the Palestinians, or from those on the Left who want to see the military option used as sparingly as possible.
Both Israeli and Diaspora leaders should be providing space for this kind of discourse, because stifling will not consolidate support for Israel but increase frustration and disillusionment with it.
According to Jeff I am loosing it while he has a hot line to Dick Cheney.
Speaking of little Dickie you should definitely bring him to Face Lift Jeff. That way we can exercise our right to a Citizen's arrest and haul his evil ass to the Hague to stand trial for WAR CRIMES! Please DaftRat Bring him on,
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dream on Fatty. And if as you say my head is in the sand then perhaps you could beat some sense into it if you would go pound sand.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"I won't be giving you DC's email addy. You should check in with "the Fet", he'll vouch for my connections."
You are dense, Jeff.
If you manage to pay off one of your "friends in power" to post here THEY can provide the info.
Not you. The "person in power".
Once again if you are soooooo close to "people in power" this should be no problem what so ever.
If you pulled this off, look at the shame you cast upon me!
"And I'm not ashamed of what I write here on ST, even Obama agreed with me the other day."
Sweet! Keep posting!
I'll continue to feed you rope...
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couchmaster
climber
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I generally have disliked most of your posts Philo. We don't agree on this issue. However, if true: this one really has me riled up. I find this kind of piss poor attempt at intimidation of an American citizen who was freely speaking his version of the truth deeply angering. (AGAIN...if true). Do you, or have you been, arguing this on other websites Philo?
philo wrote:
Curious thing happened last night that leads me to believe I have gotten under someone's skin.
I was out walking the dog when a nondescript sedan pulls up next to me and rolls down the window.Three guys in dark jogging suits are sitting in the vehicle. My initial thought was they were lost and wanted directions. But my dog, who is the best judge of character that I know was instantly on guard, hair raised, teeth barred and all.
But being a good civic citizen I ask if I can help. Their accents are vaguely familiar.
They proceed to ask me what I am doing, where I live, what's my name. Not really asking directions after all. Then they let it slip that they know my wife and kids names. OOPS.
Their questioning (bordering on interrogation) is just a little too personal and provocative. Knowing the Mossad's penchant for operational triads and smelling gun oil drifting from the car I put two and two together. By now my dog really wants a piece of these guys. So while holding her at bay I lean into the open window and tell them in no uncertain terms that I don't appreciate this unwarranted intrusion of my privacy. My wife is a non violent quaker. A pacifist. But being a survivor of some mean streets I am not!
I succinctly explain that I know who they are and if they approach me or my family again they will never call home to momma again. I can be fairly menacing when the need arises. So I believe they got the message loud and clear. If they had been merely street punks it is probably they would have jumped out of the car and all over me. But instead they drove off slowly, turned the corner and parked. They surveilled me till I was out of site. Haven't seem them since.
Friends of yours Fatty? If you have the connections that you endlessly pontificate that you do then I suggest you tell the thugs to back off. They have no idea who they are messing with. Let's keep this peaceful. No one want's to see the ugly Philo now do they. If I see them or any counter part comrades lurking near my home or my wife and kid's schools I won't hesitate to exact my own revenge.
I do have a bit of belief issue about that story though...like these 3 guys with faint accents don't have anything better or more productive to do at this time than to drive by to try and intimidate you? Your phone and internet is already tapped by the US Gov't, as are all of ours as well...what could they gain by a drive by? And in reading the thread above, you say that your wife is both a Palestinian and a Quaker who has recently traveled to Israel...that's very, very different and unusual as well wouldn't you say Philo? ....
(ie, Philo said: "Chaz I am sorry you missed my post that explained that my wife is Palestinian and has family and friends under fire in the war zone.
*and*
My wife just talked last night to one of her best friends. She is a wonderfully loving 90+ year old Jewish gentle woman who Loves my Quaker Palestinian wife like a daughter.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Couch I believe it speaking truth to power. Thus I have not been silent. I attend rallys and political events fairly regularly. This is not the first episode of harassment I have experienced but it was the most chillingly direct. Usually it is just a matter of being photographed sometimes followed. But this was a direct contact and as such much more intentionally intimidating.
No Fat fool you don't know me. I was for me in bed early so I could get a before dawn start for some quick ice climbing. Unfortunately the ice wasn't in good shape because of an odd warm spell (60 degrees in Boulder today) So I came back and went to sleep
Some of actually climb occasionally. Didn't post till I got back and going again. In fact I was willing to let this thread fade. But some folks won't let go.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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i find it sad that humans find it easy to pick a side or an enemy and consider violence against them without remorse. It's sad in Hamas and Israel alike and also on Supertopo.
Just the way we've wired ourselves....to be normal nice people but well willing to push the button for the pain and torment of others without insuring we have followed a righteous path ourselves, in fact, with evidence to the contrary.
I could stand behind Israeli violence if I hadn't studied and seen the continuing land grap and ethnic cleansing at the root of their policy. I want to support somebody doing the right thing but all the wrong people are in power.
I hope Obama can do something about that, but I'm afraid the current escalation is timed to get something done, or maybe just started, before he can do anything about it.
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"I do have a bit of belief issue about that story though...like these 3 guys with faint accents don't have anything better or more productive to do at this time than to drive by to try and intimidate you? Your phone and internet is already tapped by the US Gov't, as are all of ours as well...what could they gain by a drive by"?
Many of you won't remember when I explained both my families Polish roots and my wife's Diaspora Palestinian roots. Other than the ones who emigrated before WW2 none of my family made it alive out of the ruin of Poland. Their history is all but lost. I went to Poland 3 times and found NOTHING.
My wife's was and is a very prominent Christian Palestinian (not a rarity at all) Family with deep roots. Her cousin is Noor the former Queen of Jordan a prominent peace activist. One uncle was the head of the FAA under Kennedy. Her great Uncle was the only Christian Arab Mayor of Jerusalem. And these are not the most amazing members of her remarkable family.
I posted this and good deal more on a previously thread all of which is 100% verifiable. And because it would lead anyone who cared to research a little to names and addresses my wife was mortified and frightened that I was disclosing too much. It would have been child's play to put what I posted together with where we live and just wait for an opportunity. My take is the encounter I experienced was a crude attempt to intimidate me. But I am a veteran of among other things all the big bad nasty Black Canyon routes so I don't intimidate easily. But when it comes to a veiled threat about my children's well being I draw the line.
"And in reading the thread above, you say that your wife is both a Palestinian and a Quaker who has recently traveled to Israel...that's very, very different and unusual as well wouldn't you say Philo"? ....
I am curious why you think that is different and unusual? Most of the Jewish members of my family (surprised?) were initially taken aback with the notion of a Quaker Palestinian. But they all adore her and her peaceful ways.
A great many Palestinians are Christian which most Arab bashers either don't know or choose to ignore. Perhaps you were not aware that the Quakers, who were tremendously instrumental in the founding of America, are Christians.
"(ie, Philo said: "Chaz I am sorry you missed my post that explained that my wife is Palestinian and has family and friends under fire in the war zone".
*and*
"My wife just talked last night to one of her best friends. She is a wonderfully loving 90+ year old Jewish gentle woman who Loves my Quaker Palestinian wife like a daughter.
Both my wife and I have many Jewish friends and I have Jewish relatives. But to be clear my wife is the lovable pacifist and a social phenomenon. I am just a Polish beast.
I really Don't care if any die hard Arab bashers don't believe a word I say I will continue to speak truth to power.
I did try to take these men's picture with my camera phone but for some reason they were very camera shy. I probably shouldn't have said "Hey wait let me get your picture". Next time I won't advertise.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"And you think DC would provide a real email addy so you can harass him?"
Yeah right. Harass the VP. That would be a great one for the Darwin awards.
Why not his office address.
I'm sure they have more filtering capability than anyone.
Anyway, I'd send off an e-mail just asking for a reply, nothing more or less, so I can verify where the e-mail came from. I could care less if it came from his sec.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oh God I knew it was inevitable but I hope we are not Witnessing the Loisification of yet another thread. Lois my wife and I used to own an orchard in the four corner area of Colorado. You can only talk "apples" for so long. Please don't here.
And Lois with all respect (so you will at least hear me with an open mind) This is NOT a one way street. Both sides have at times called for the total destruction of the other. Not just one side. Both sides have a legal right to defend themselves. Not just one side.
The significant disparity is Israel receives more financial aid from us than any other country. In fact they receive more than the next three countries combined. With this US Largesse and total one sided support they have built one of the largest standing armies in the world. They have every conceivable advanced weapon system in their burgeoning arsenal. Including WMDs. You know chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. They have also used the unflinching support and financial assistance of US to dispossess the Palestinians of their land and resources with illegal settlements. And build The Great Wall of Apartheid to the tune of $3,000,000.00 of our dollars a mile. Next consider the Palestinians under occupation. Regardless of what ever you have been told they are existing in a living hell. Like the Blacks of pre civil rights America they live in constant fear. They can been beaten mercilessly by settlers with no recourse. If they do fight back they will be killed and their families property will be bulldozed and confiscated. Just imagine a young Palestinian boy watching his mother being stoned by a gang of settler punks. If he interferes He will be hauled off to jail and beaten possibly to death. While his mom will be left bleeding in the dirt. This is not supposition it happens almost every day in the occupied West Bank.
Like the Blacks of segregated America they have to accept what ever is done to them. If they raise a hand against a settler their life is null and void.
Search your heart if you can condone this because of the one sided message you have been force feed your whole life then I would say your morality is seriously questionable.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"I did not mention apples on this thread".
Not yet Lois but please acknowledge your phenomenal ability to derail a thread with endless prattle.
"Is the point you are making that we get skewed information concerning Israel"?
Yes that is a point I have been endeavoring to make.
"Are you saying they are just as "wrong" as the people who vow to destroy them"?
Yes Lois that is exactly what I am saying.
But please feel free to read all posts on this thread to get yourself "up to speed".
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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LEB = LSD
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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HA HA HA HA ahh bless your heart Tami that was some of the best advise I have heard in a long time.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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If my pal FatTrad had even 1% of the political connections he claims to have, SuperTopo is the last place he'd boast about it. Those with such connections may or may not want them to be public - but the politicians very much tend to want to keep them quiet. And they try to avoid those who would do otherwise.
Influence and connections are far more powerful if private. If you boast about it, you probably don't have it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Paranoid schizophrenia is one of several types of schizophrenia, a chronic mental illness in which reality is interpreted abnormally (psychosis). The classic features of paranoid schizophrenia are having beliefs that have no basis in reality (delusions) and hearing things that aren't real (auditory hallucinations).
With paranoid schizophrenia, your ability to think and function in daily life may be better than with other types of schizophrenia. You may not have as many problems with memory, concentration or dulled emotions. Still, paranoid schizophrenia is a serious, lifelong condition that can lead to many complications, including suicidal behavior. But with effective treatment, you can manage the symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia and work toward leading a happier, healthier life.
Symptoms
Signs and symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia may include:
* Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices
* Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you or that you are being stalked by the Mossad.
* Anxiety
* Anger
* Aloofness
* Violence
* Verbal confrontations
* Patronizing manner
* Suicidal thoughts and behavior
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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You left off...
Believing you will be Emperor of Yosemite.
And GC you, who do not know me, are likely the only one in the world who would think of attributing PS to me. Cool! Guess I have to kill myself now. What's that you say? Speak up. The voices in my head are so quiet I can't even hear them.
You cannot legitimately refute my arguments so you resort to character assassination.
How very adult of you. What do you label that delusional disorder?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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* Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices (?)
* Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you or that you are being stalked by the "Mossad." (DOUBLE CHECK)
* Anxiety (CHECK)
* Anger (CHECK)
* Aloofness (CHECK)
* Violence (CHECK?)
* Verbal confrontations (CHECK)
* Patronizing manner (CHECK)
* Suicidal thoughts and behavior (?)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I know a lot of people who suffer from depression or a variety of mental challenges. Some of the finest people I know in fact.
That said, I have no knowledge that leads me to believe Philo is one of them.
But if he was, it's a particular shame that somebody like that should have the most informed and balanced posts on this subject. I've studied it from all sides and read the polemics of every axe to grind. I've already admitted, unlike some posers, that I have a tendency to be prejudiced against Islam, but it keeps getting refuted by acquaintance with actual muslims and by my desire to think in terms of justice and not just believing what I want to believe.
It certainly is uncomfortable to let "the enemy" out of the box of their demonization. It takes away the black and white and reminds us of our flaws. It's also hard to admit we support a party that does wrong.
I've seen it though, not just in big political affairs but in families where the breadwinner is a sexual abuser or a perpetrator of domestic violence. Family members just sort of deny it because they are dependent on the bread and can't handle the cognitive dissonance of supporting somebody who has gone down a dark road.
Still, it doesn't support anybody to let them do wrong. I call on Israel to stop settlements and abuse so their would be no justification for the Palestinians to seek to harm them.
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jews lived in Gaza for thousands of years but then they were killed or forced to leave. Karl, do you know why are there no Jews living in Gaza? (Hint: this happened before Israel or the settlements existed.)
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Just got to get my two cents in here.
So, WHY do some of you morons have a problem with people, whom a lot of the world has been out to exterminate for a long time, in more than one historical era, defending themselves????
Calling the Israelis scum, that's great. They are our only true ally in the region, or didn't you notice that?
I'd sure trust the jews a lot more than the arabs, in general at least, and I bet when the shyte hits the fan Israel will be on our side, while the arabs, no matter what any of em have said, will not.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I dunno, here's some history I pulled from the net. Which ass kicking massacre by whom are you referring to, or run of the mill invasion and occupation?
""The land formerly known as Palestine."
The region formerly known as Palestine was formerly known as Israel and only renamed to Palestine by the Romans in order to offend the Jews who lived there
Jews have been continuously living there for over three thousand years
How long have Arabs or Muslims been living there? Nowhere near as long.
Half of Jewish history had already happened there by the time Mohammed even spoke his first words.
The history of the area is complex due to the many tribes and (later) nations that settled, conquered and ruled, traded there or moved through: Canaanites, Philistines, Samaritans, Nabataeans, Greeks, Romans, Muslims and Christians.
In pre-Biblical times, the area was known as the Land of Canaan and had been a collection of city-states, tributary to the Egyptian Pharoah, as attested to in the Tel-El Amarna tablets. The breakup of the Egyptian empire beginning about 1500 BC made possible the invasion of the Israelites. According to Jewish tradition, twelve tribes entered Canaan from Egypt and conquered it, led by Moses approximately 1240-1200 BC. Historical evidence from the Amarna tablets suggests that there were already 'apiru' (Hebrews) among the Canaanites in the time of Egyptian rule.
During the final years of the Late Bronze Age, the Philistines also invaded Canaan (1500 - 1200 BC). Other evidence suggests that around 1200 BC, semi-nomads from the desert fringes to the east, joined by elements from Anatolia, the Aegean, and the south, possibly including Egypt, began to settle in the hill country of Canaan. A large proportion - probably a majority of this population - were refugees from the Canaanite city states, destroyed by the Egyptians in one of their periodic invasions.
The Biblical account continues with the rise of an Israelite kingdom, first under Saul and then under David at about 1000 BC, the date of David's conquest of Jerusalem.
In 539 B.C. the Persians conquered the Babylonians. The Jewish Temple, destroyed by the Babylonians, was rebuilt (516 BC). Under Persian rule the Jewish state enjoyed considerable autonomy. Alexander the Great of Macedon, conquered the area in 333 BC His successors, the Ptolemies and Seleucids, contested for control. The attempt of the Seleucid Antiochus IV (Antiochus Epiphanes) to impose Hellenism brought a Jewish revolt under the Maccabees, who set up a new Jewish state in 142 BC The state lasted until 63 BC, when Pompey conquered the region for Rome.
At the time of Christ the Jewish state was ruled by puppet kings of the Romans, the Herods. When the Jews revolted in 66 AD, the Romans destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem (70 AD). The Bar Kokba revolt between 132 and 135 AD was also suppressed, Jericho and Bethlehem were destroyed, and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. The Roman Emperor Hadrian determined to wipe out the identity of Israel-Judah-Judea. Therefore, he took the name Palastina and imposed it on all the Land of Israel. At the same time, he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina. The Romans killed many Jews and sold many more in slavery. Some of those who survived left the devastated country (and established Jewish communities throughout the Middle East) but there was never a complete abandonment of the Land of Israel. That is, there were always Jews and Jewish communities in Palestine, though the size and conditions of those communities fluctuated greatly.
When Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity (312), he took steps to elevate the status of Jerusalem and the city became a center of Christian pilgrimage. Constantine relaxed some restrictions on Jews, but renewed the prohibition on the residence of Jews in Jerusalem, permitting them to mourn for its destruction once a year, on the ninth day of the Hebrew month of Av.
Palestine over the next few centuries generally enjoyed peace and prosperity until it was conquered in 614 AD by the Persians. It was recovered briefly by the Byzantine Romans, but fell to the Muslim Arabs under caliph Umar by the year 640. During the Umayyad rule, the importance of Palestine as a holy place for Muslims was emphasized, but little was done to develop the region economically. Few Arabs came to Palestine; the Muslim rulers ruled Christians and Jews.
In 691 the Dome of the Rock was erected on the site of the Temple of Solomon, which is claimed by Muslims to have been the halting station of Muhammad on his journey to heaven. Close to the Dome, the al Aqsa mosque was built. In 750, Palestine passed to the Abbasid caliphate, and this period was marked by unrest between factions that favored the Umayyads and those who preferred the new rulers.
In the 9th century, Palestine was conquered by the Fatimid dynasty, which had risen to power in North Africa. The Fatimids had many enemies - the Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins - and Palestine became a battlefield. Under the Fatimid caliph al Hakim (996-1021), the Christians and Jews were harshly suppressed, and many churches were destroyed. In 1099, Palestine was captured by the Crusaders, establishing the Latin Kingdom. Jews were seen by the Crusaders as infidels, as bad as the Muslim occupiers of Jerusalem, and were slaughtered by Christian soldiers along their way to liberate Jerusalem and then thousands in the city when they got there. Following the first Crusade, a Papal Bull was issued in 1119 AD to reinforce St. Augustine's earlier plea, in 427 AD, not to kill the Jews, but to allow them to wander the earth as evidence of their rejection by God.
By the time the Crusaders were defeated by Saladin at the battle of Hittin (1187), and the Latin Kingdom was ended, Palestine had become a wasteland. Mongol invaders who arrived in 1260 destroyed many of the villages. The Mamluks ended the Crusader period in 1291, but under Mamluk rule Palestine declined further. Mamluks burned and sacked towns and villages, uprooted orchards, and destroyed wells. In 1351, the Black Death was reported in Palestine and by 1500 the population had declined to barely 200,000 people. For comparison, the state of New Jersey, roughly comparable to Israel in size, had a 2001 population of about 8.5 million people and still had rural, undeveloped areas.
In 1516 the Mamluks were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. The first three centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. The discovery of sea routes to the East began to erode the importance of the Middle East to commerce. In 1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western influence continued. The Ottoman tax system was ruinous and did much to keep the land underdeveloped and the population small. When Alexander W. Kinglake crossed the Jordan in 1834-35, he used the Jordan's only bridge, a survival from Roman antiquity. Among the many European settlements established, the most significant in the long run were those of Jews, Russian Jews being the first to come (1882).
World War I led to the British expulsion of the Ottoman Turks as rulers over their province of Palestine. In the war, the Ottoman empire aligned with Germany against France and Britain. The war also gave Britain the excuse to depose the Egyptian Khedive, Abbas Hilmy, and to create a British protectorate there.
In 1920, following the defeat of the Turks, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the peace conferences after World War I, the British Mandate for Palestine was created by the League of Nations. The Mandate was international recognition for the stated purpose of "establishing in Palestine a national home for the Jewish people." Note that this is long before World War II.
The area of the Mandate was originally 118,000 square kilometers (about 45,000 square miles). In 1921, Britain took the 91,000 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate east of the Jordan River, and created Trans-Jordan (later the Arab country of Jordan) as a new Arab protectorate. Jews were barred by law from living or owning property east of the Jordan river, even though that land was over three-fourths of the original Mandate.
In 1923, Britain ceded the Golan Heights (another 1,176 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate) to the French Mandate of Syria. Jews were also barred from living there. Jewish settlers on the Golan Heights were forced to abandon their homes and relocate inside the westerb area of the British Mandate.
The total remaining area of the Mandate for Palestine, after these land deductions, was just under 26,000 square kilometers (about 10,000 square miles). The southern part of the Mandate – the desert of the Negev – was also closed by the British to Jewish settlement. The area was inhabited by 15,000 roaming Bedouins, and had no Jewish or Arab settlements in it.
The balance of the Mandate, the inhabited part of Palestine, and only the part west of the Jordan, was just 14,000 square kilometers. Jewish immigration was limited by the British from time to time, especially after the periods of Arab riots and severely restricted after 1939. At the same time, Arab immigration was not restricted or even recorded. By 1948, when the State of Israel was founded, 1.8 million people lived the western area of the Mandate, estimated to be 600,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. Following the war between the Jews and the Arabs in 1948, the inhabited areas of the 14,000 square kilometers were divided along cease-fire lines between Israel and Jordan/Egypt. 8,000 square kilometers, or 57% of the reduced area (which is only 6.7% of the original Mandate territory), became Israel. The rest of the area of western Palestine, 5,700 square kilometers of historic Judea and Samaria, was annexed by Jordan – and renamed the West Bank - while 360 square kilometers were occupied by Egypt and called the Gaza Strip.
In 1946, Britain unilaterally granted Transjordan its independence completing the action taken in 1922 when all land within the Mandate east of the Jordan was set aside for the Arabs. With Transjordan's independence, the British had partitioned Palestine and created an independent Palestine-Arab state with 77% of the original territory.
In 1947 Great Britain declared its Mandate in Palestine "unworkable" and referred the matter to the youthful UN. That body created a special committee of eleven member states to study the issues and report its recommendations. The UN Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) was the first truly independent tribunal to examine the Palestine question. UNSCOP's majority concluded that the League of Nations pledge of a Jewish national home had never been fulfilled, as Jewish immigration and land purchases had been artificially restricted by the British Mandate authorities.
The committee recommended an end to the British Mandate and the partitioning of the area. However, the partition plan was directed only at the 23% of the original Mandate that was left after the British subdivision that gave 77% to create the Arab territory of Transjordan. Of the remaining 23%, 56% was allocated to a Jewish state, 42% to an Arab state, and an international zone for the holy places in and around Jerusalem was allocated 2%.
On November 29, 1947, the U.N. General Assembly by a two-thirds vote (33 to 13 with Britain and nine others abstaining) passed Resolution 181 partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jewish community of Palestine jubilantly accepted partition despite the small size and strategic vulnerability of the proposed state. Not only were Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip not included, but also Jerusalem, most of the Galilee in the North and parts of the Negev desert in the South were excluded. The Arab national movement in Palestine, as well as all the Arab states, angrily rejected partition. They demanded the entire country for themselves and threatened to resist partition by force. Had they accepted the U.N. proposal in 1947, the independent Palestinian Arab state, covering an area much larger than the West Bank and Gaza, would have been created along with Israel. Instead, they launched a war to destroy the nascent Jewish state.
It is important to note that there was a Jewish population in Palestine continuously. Even after the Jewish state was ended by the Romans, Jewish communities continued to exist. All of the successor governments tried to eliminate the Jews at one time or another, but none succeeded as numerous accounts testify over the centuries. When the Zionists started the modern "return" to Eretz Yisrael in the 19th Century, they were joining Jews who never left.
1 year ago"
Peace
karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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LOL all these years, and fatty finally gets one right!
fatboy wrote:
"It's very easy to stop this. Have the Saudi Whahabi clerics, Pakistani madrassa's, Iranian Muallahs give up on the idea of recapturing Jerusalem, let Israel keep it's current borders and then peace would erupt. Of course this will not happen, hence.................The Clash of Civilizations. The Palestinians are merely pawns, The Saudis could easily build luxury condos for every family in Gaza in two months."
Of course those hate-filled old wretches who prey on the minds of the innocent to go to their stupid 'schools', and then wage their terror war will NEVER stop.
So we should stop them.
Oh, but wait, the Saudis support those schools, don't they?
Some friends the Sauds turn out to be.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Calling the Israelis scum, that's great. They are our only true ally in the region, or didn't you notice that? "
I don't mind having scum for enemies. I just don't want em for friends. It's up to us to help them get straight with justice.
And don't give em such a pass. It was Israel who attacked and killed US military in 1967 on the US Liberty intentionally, and there have been a number scandals where Israel has sent spies to spy on the US government, some are still in jail here.
It's not so black and white. Remember Saddam used to be a US ally and we cheered him on during the worst period of his killing and oppression. Funny, our allies can do no wrong until we turn on em
Peace
karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Are you really going to compare the disaster of Saddam to Israel?
NO doubt at all that the US makes HUGE and tragic mistakes around the world though. That might be the saddest part-- that after WW2 we had a chance to make things right, and we did not.
Famous quote from some US general about a banana republic strong man: "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch."
Our better dead that red foreign policy along with near total mis-comprehension of the rest of the world,has led to a lot of crap for everyone. Sad but true.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Unfortunately I don't get to spend very much time online so I just throw my 2cents in here and there.
Chris2 - Al Jazeera is the ONLY source of news for that area. Sometimes this is a good thing and sometimes it's bad. Foreign reporters are rarely allowed and for good reason. They "aquire" many of their stories. When you watch a story being manufactured or see a story run on CNN about an incident you were involved in that looks nothing like the truth then all such footage becomes suspect. How many stretchers do you see being rushed through the streets without an obvious doctor around, without seeing the body beneath the sheet. How many don't even have blood on them, etc.
The problem clearly lies with the innability of both sides to come to a compromise. I like balance. I like to see both sides of the story. Israel's side is constantly demonized. The pallestinians didn't complain when the Jews were buying up the land and turning it prosperous in the late 1800's thus bringing in bedouin workers which would later call themselves palestinian. Why didn't Jordan give the Pallestinians their own territory when they governed the west bank in the 60's??? People are too easily fooled into thinking the muslim world are all brothers who support each other. Truth is most Islamic countries watch happily as Israel attacks Hamas. An Israeli friend told me a joke many years ago. What do the Jordanians call Israel? Jordan. What do the Egyptians call Isreal? Egypt. What do the Syrians call Israel? Syria.
It's a shame Hamas was acknowledged by world leaders as a political party instead of the terrorist organization that they are. The true leaders of the Palestinian movement is Fatah. I'm sure they don't have a problem with Hamas getting their butt kicked either. We don't need another Beruit. There were peace talks and a treaty that Hamas decided not to honor. We can make them sit down and we can make them talk but what should we do when they won't play nice?
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Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
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I saw a lot of talk earlier about civilian deaths in Gaza.
Well, there would be a lot fewer if Hamas didn't intentionally embed their military operation within civilian residential areas, schools, and markets.
When senior Hamas goon Nizar Rayyan lost his life to a rocket targeted on his house two days ago, we learned that not only had he defied typical Hamas tactics of retreating to safe bunkers during the siege, but also elected to surround himself in his home with his four wives, nine children, and numerous other followers. His human shield mentality is shared by many in the terrorist organization, as the leadership, including Rayyan called on supporters (innocent civilians) to stand upon the rooftops of buildings that would likely be military targets in Israel's operation.
When Hamas proclaimed their refusal to continue their ceasefire with Israel, they left no alternative to the course of action that resulted. And when the tragic and avoidable civilian casualties occur, the blood is entirely on Hamas's hands. These bloodthirsty idiots are killing Palestine and its cause.
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Sak
Mountain climber
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Americans celebrate July 4 as our Independence day. We fought for our freedom and our self determination. We glorify our success and consider the struggle as heroic. I consider the Palestinians as heroes also. They fight to overthrow a military occupation. Why can't the Palestinians fight for their freedom?? At this point it's Hatfield vs.Mccoys. I blame neither side for seeking revenge. It's human nature. Someone needs to step in, draw up some borders, and create a Nation of Palestine. At this point we can hold the Palestinians (and Israelis) accountable. Peace can only come when this happens. Preconditions are imposed by politicians more interested in campaign contributions than in actually achieving peace.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"The House of Abraham... perhaps the bloodiest line of humans - ever.
They are not fit to be among people, generally speaking."
Sweet!
Dingus says we need to kill Christians, Muslims and Jews!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869407,00.html?imw=Y
Although the assault on one of the movement's most senior figures has been interpreted by Hamas as an intentional body blow — and may yet prompt a furious retaliation — Israeli officials did not characterize it as a "targeted killing." Indeed, Israeli military-intelligence sources tell TIME that Rayan was killed when he remained in his home after Israel had phoned and ordered those inside to evacuate — before striking to destroy command facilities in the house. Israel says it has used this "knock on the roof" practice of phoning warnings about strikes on the homes of Hamas leaders throughout the current campaign. Israeli officials say the campaign thus far has not significantly targeted or damaged Hamas' leadership and chain of command.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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(Overjoyed to see Dirtineye post. I was getting ready to make e mail inquirey.)
It's important to note Muslims also consider themselves "chosen," people, sons of Abraham. To be more specific, Muslims consider Ishmael the proper chosen lineage, on the premise that Jews and Christian have distorted the Scriptures.
Augustinian Christian theology emphasizes the Pauline doctrine of "adoption," by faith, into the "chosen race."
The pollutions of human nature, individually, and corporate, being the most obvious common denominator of adherants to all three identities these days. Put theologically, a weak view of the doctrine of Sin. In this case the possession of "holy-land" has taken precedent over the quest for personal holiness.
Upthread Werner mentioned the priority of individual awareness and responsibility as a starting point. I couldn't agree more.
I hope I'm not out of line to encourage all of us to respect the experience of Philo and to resist the unnecessary personal judgements.
We are all unstabe. We are humans.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"read mark steyn for a little moral clarity"
Mark Steyn has the moral clarity of Charles Manson.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Interestingly both Muslims and Christians expect Jesus will be the man arriving at the end times, which many fundamentalists believe are heralded by the re-establishment of Israel.
The Israelis, ironically, don't expect Jesus at the end but many are happy to enlist the funding and support of Christian fundamentalist groups that expect all these Jewish folks will be eradicated at the end, with most burning in hell forever (so much for the Muslims being the only ones expecting Israel to disappear)
Now if Jesus were to return, he'd probably better be well armed and prepared to take charge by force, since he wasn't saying things strictly by the book the first time he was here, and would certainly be expected to quote the ancient party line upon returning (and, of course, Christians and Muslims expect different things from Jesus return)
Just food for thought. All these folks counting on their guy to be on their side in wiping out the other guys, who happened to Mr Love-Thy-Enemy.
Personally, I think this world is just plain doomed unless we can take a huge step away from violence and conflict before the bio-dna-weapons become so easy to make that any half-cocked, angry scientist could engineer armageddon in a test tube
peace
Karl
PS Fatty wrote
"DMT, Thanks for finally agreeing to my C of C premise, got Karl yesterday"
I'd hate to see what is considered "consent" on one of Fatty's dates!
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"I'd hate to see what is considered "consent" on one of Fatty's dates!"
Ask Dick Cheney.....
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Charming, Unc, but I don't really like the word picture!
I too got a laugh out of the Orange County "morality."
Karl is showing some restraint: Try Rev:19:11ff
Perhaps the thought of Daddy comin home to give everyone a whuppin' is what is needed. Yes, "love thy enemies," but tragically, "broad" is the path to destruction.
J Hendrix and Zimmerman said it well, "all along the watchtower."
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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The ground invasion has begun...
edit: hey... what's with the whole new thread???
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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It is a cultural war, and it will progressively get worse until we have to face it whether we like it or not. It's going to spread and get much bloodier throughout the world as well as in the US.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"It is a cultural war, and it will progressively get worse until we have to face it whether we like it or not"
Culture is just the excuse to kill other humans. It a turf war in this case.
And it's happening now because it's their last chance to kick ass with impunity before Obama comes into office and hopefully requests Israel honor their commitments to stop illegal settlements and squeezing off Palestinian lifelines of food, electricity and medicine. Could be too late by then.
This could even be a last minute attempt to provoke Iran or some Arab countries to attack and start a war while they still can.
Its ugly and far from the simple "Israel just wants peace within its simple borders and it will play nice" myth that we are fed in the US alone.
Peace
Karl
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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How long before Iran steps in to back up their cronies? My guess is anytime after January 20th…
Is WWIII just around the corner?
C’mon… I wanna see some motherf*#kers get vaporized!!!
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Those photos are just awful.
This is so wrong. No matter who one believes is "right" in this battle, this is just barbarism.
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WBraun
climber
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So
Anybody gonna do anything besides just talk?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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The person who posted those photos did more than "just talk."
What did I do? As usual, I made a point of making eye contact/smiling/assisting those around me as I went about my day today. At the post office, on the subway, as I walked the sidewalks.
"Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me."
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"C’mon… I wanna see some motherf*#kers get vaporized!!! "
I did have some serious respect for you Minerals.
No more.
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Lafta
climber
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People, people, people. Do you not see?
This latest conflict is all in line with those who are establishing a new world order as spoken of by Bush senior and other world leaders numerous times.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=750296
Hug your wife and kids, send those projects, and just....live!
Cause the times, they are a changin'.
Things are not as they appear.
Ask yourself why the flag was fluttering (as if in the wind) during the first lunar landing?
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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" continuing my theme of moral clarity: "
...you'll come up for fresh air?
Your links and premise have the "moral" clarity of crude oil.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Lafta -funny you should mention the moon flag. Recently in a
MythBusters episode they busted your non-original theory about the Apollo moon missions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMBCfuKs9i8
But thankyou for demonstrating again how easily aurthoritative sounding statements can fool. The media war between Israel and the terrorists is most notable.
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Avishai
Mountain climber
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It is clear that modern terrorists campaigning in favor of violence and war instead of promoting democracy succeeded in manipulating bookworm’s “theme of moral clarity.”
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Hi Mr. Bookworm- I was checking on your statement of 30 minute missile warnings.
("for the next one, pay close attention to paragraph two...those who insist that nobody can claim the higher moral ground might consider this fact: israel ALWAYS warns the palestinians about when and where they will strike; they provide 30 minutes for the palestinians to vacate the area.")
Sounds good, but this is the support you offered:
"Nizar Rayan, his four wives and 10 of his children were all killed by in an Israeli air strike on his home after he ignored warnings they should go into hiding"
This seems exceptionally thin to me and I'm wondering why you think it could fly. Do you have other more meaningful information to establish this hard-to-believe claim?
Credible moral priorites entail attention to principles of reason. Earlier you suggested my statements "inferred" support of Hamas...a gross mischaracterization. I'm still waiting for you to awknowledge my correction.
Bruce
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Book worm would have you believe that the IDF "ALWAYS" gives 30 minutes warning.
Here is the truth;
From Haaretz.com
The IDF has code named such operations "roof knocking," in which the army informs the residents of s suspected building that they have 10 minutes to leave the premises. In some cases, residents of suspected houses have been able to prevent bombing by climbing up to the roof to show that they will not leave, prompting IDF commanders to call off the strike.
Notice the say TEN MINUTES WARNING not thirty minutes to evacuate.
Now here will be an interesting and telling experiment for the adventurous.
Tonight when everyone in your home is asleep and unsuspecting start your chronometer. Count down from ten minutes. Now, while screaming as loudly as you can and making as much chaotic noise as possible, quickly gather up your spouse and children don't forget the beloved family pets and grab what ever you think you will need or can't face loosing and run. Run for your lives! How far do you have to run from a two thousand pound bomb before you are in the clear from "collateral Damage"? What did you leave behind? Any irreplaceable family heirlooms? Photo? Climbing gear? It's gonna be a long night what are you going to feed your children?
Ten minutes isn't a long time to pack for an extended trip!
When Palestinian families, who refuse to leave their homes, stand on the roofs to dissuade the IAF from bombing them the IDF responds by "tapping" them. Which entails an Apache gun ship launching a missile into the corner of the roof while the family (women and children) are still there..
I am sorry that some of you believe the IDF is humanely moral because they give fair warning.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Those so called warnings have been shown to be seriously flawed. One was an email sent to an account they said belonged to this group they were going to target. It was not an email account that was checked often. Records showed this. The email was sent in the middle of the night. Who checks their email when they are asleep?
To believe that Israel is really trying to warn people shows serious inability to discern the truth. They would never kill a bad guy if what they said was true, because the bad guys would know in advance that Israel does this and so would be prepared to leave at a moments notice.
It is a bunk story to give Israel an appearance of the higher moral ground.
Sorry Bookworm, but you acceptance of this show serious lack of judgement on your part, or that you are too invested in Israel being the good guy. Give it up. They aren't the good guy. There is no good guy in this.
Justice is not achieved by deciding who is the better person. It is achieved by looking at the Truth. And the Truth is that both sides have done immoral actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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John,
You got it!
No one is on any form of moral high ground.
If anything the ground both stand on is low as the dead sea.
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Avishai
Mountain climber
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Bruce, don’t waste your time expecting any meaningful acknowledgement to your correction. Such deaf-mutes are unable to comprehend, and choose instead to regurgitate their own moral judgments regardless of right or wrong.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Wow Uncle Doug kudos for a poignantly succinct nugget of truth.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Yeah Coz can you believe it 4 dead innocent Israelis! Those murderous blood thirsty terrorist beasts. They have no place existing among us civilized nations. Good thing we the US are continuously willing to stand behind Israel 100%. We wouldn't want Israel to run out of bullets now would we?
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Hey- it's Sunday (religious translation: Friday , Saturday Sabbaths), so my time is cheap.
Book..."You have ten minutes to respond...or else!"
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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12:36 p.m.
KA BOOM!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I would say that was nice and moral. haha
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Go to wikipedia for the footnotes.
Nizar Rayan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nizar Rayan
Born March 6, 1959(1959-03-06)
Jabalia
Died January 1, 2009 (aged 49)
Gaza City
Cause of death Air force attack
Ethnicity Arab
Citizenship Palestinian
Known for Hamas leadership
Religious beliefs Islam
Sheikh Nizar Rayan (Arabic: نزار ريان, also transliterated Rayyan) (March 6, 1959 – January 1, 2009) was a top Hamas military commander who was killed during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.
Contents
[hide]
* 1 Personal life and background
* 2 Israeli attack
* 3 References
* 4 External links
[edit] Personal life and background
Rayan was born in Jabalia, Gaza Strip[citation needed] on March 6, 1959.[1] He attended universities in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, completing his PhD in Islamic studies at the Um Dorman University in Sudan.[2][3][4] Rayan then returned to the Gaza Strip and was employed in several mosques as a preacher,[3] before becoming a professor of Islamic law at the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip.[4][5] Rayan enjoyed going out on patrol with the militants after delivering lectures.[6] He had a 5,000-book library in his basemant, and was a leading authority on Hadith (sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad).[3] He was married to four women with whom he had at least eleven children.[7]
An influential preacher at what is known in Jabalia as the "Mosque of martyrs", Rayan mentored suicide bombers.[8][6] He sent his own son on a suicide mission, which also killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip.[9][10][11][12][13][14][6]
After Hamas ceased deploying suicide bombers against Israel, Rayan advocated for their renewal.[5][6] When the Israeli military killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004, Rayan came to be considered Hamas' top clerical authority.[3] Rayan directed and financed the Ashdod Port attack, which killed ten people.[15][3][14][16]
Rayan was one of the architects behind the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which 400 Palestinian Fatah party members were killed and dozens more Palestinians were tortured and maimed.[6][3] According to an Hamas spokesperson, it's possible that the Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes.[3] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night."[3]
Rayan was fundamentally opposed to the state of Israel.[9] He proclaimed, "True Islam would ever allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."[17]
Rayan believed that Jews are a "cursed people" and some were transformed into pigs and apes by Allah.[17] He also believed that Jews must pay for murdering prophets of Islam and "closing [their] your ears to the Messenger of Allah."[17]
[edit] Israeli attack
Rayan was preaching in a local mosque the day before he was killed and declared: "Our only language with the Jew is through the gun".[6] He also appeared on Al-Aqsa TV proclaiming, "God willing, the evil state, the Jewish state will not break the resistance.[9]
Rayan was killed in an Israeli Air Force strike on 1 January 2009 during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.[18] A one-ton bomb was dropped on his home killing him, his four wives, and 11 of their children.[19][20][11][12]
Rayan did not take security precautions despite the fact that Hamas figures were at risk of being assassinated.[21][4] While most of Hamas' leaders went into hiding after the Israeli operation began in December, Rayan chose to stay at home.[9][14]
The IDF warned Rayan, by contacting his cell phone, that an attack was imminent and urged him to evacuate his family, but he refused.[2][22][14][6][6] According to the New York Daily News, Rayan "sacrificed his children - in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home."[6] He put nearby civilians to risk as well.[20]
The Israeli military regularly contacted Gazans, either be telephone or flier, that their building was being targeted ("Roof knocking").[22][23][24][25] However, an Israeli military spokesperson "could not give details or specify whether Rayyan's family had been warned."[23]
According to the Israeli government, Rayan's house served as an arms and ammunition warehouse and as a Hamas communications center at the time of the attack.[3] The Israeli military said that the many secondary explosions were triggered by the weapons stockpile stored within his house.[20][13][6]
Rayan was the most senior Hamas member killed since Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi was killed in Israeli airstrikes in 2004.[10] Hamas said that Israel would pay a "heavy price" for his death.[6]
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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The Shutzstaffel (SS) have entered Gaza. Nazi swines will do to Gaza as they did to Fallujah.
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Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
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I seldom get very worked up about poli-blogs on Supertopo but, Scabang if I ever meet you I am going to kick you in the face.
It's people like you, preaching hate and using extemist hyperbole ("Nazis") that are the cause of our inability to be effective in the Palestinian crisis.. Hopefully the rest of us can keep the conversation on an intellectual level.
p.s. how much warning do you think suicide bombers give their targets? (hint: less than 10 minutes) How dissuading would it be to Hamas if one of their military targets had thirty Israeli kids standing on the roof at the time of attack?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"The American people are going to wake up soon and tell Israel to pay her own bills"
that would be ironic
"conquer her own territories"
and which conquests do mean? the golan heights, which were captured in a defensive war? well, according to the un, lands captured in a defensive war can be controlled as long as a threat exists...perhaps you want to assert that israel faces no threats from anyone in the region? let's see, israel pulled out of lebanon, the west bank, and gaza and what did they get in return? attacks from hezbollah in lebanon, attacks from hamas in gaza, and a tenuous peace from fatah in the west bank...yes, logically, israel should give up strategic defensive ground in golan, too
"and subdue her own underclass."
and by "subdue" do you mean giving arab/muslim citizens full rights of citizenship, including the rights to live where they want, receive a free education, attend university, work, raise a family, vote, serve in parliament, and publicly criticize the government?
moral clarity?
let's see...one side warns their enemy of attacks, allowing their enemy to minimize casualties while the other side tries to maximize casualties by herding civilians (including women, children, elderly) to the locations of forewarned attacks... clearly one side is MORALLY SUPERIOR to the other, doug, but i'll only give you three guesses
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shutupandclimb
climber
So. Cal..............d00d
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I don't know about all the political in and outs, but I will say that if someone is raining down rockets on my innocent loved ones, I will do all in my power to stop the terrorism including KILLING all those that stand in the way or support the terrorists. We all have a right to protect ourselves, why shouldn't Israel?
All a measured response would do is encourage more criminal behavior and not hold those responsible fully accountable.
The object is to place pressure on Hamas (spelling?) from within as well as without. They were established as a military organization whose stance is that Jew's don't have a right to exist. F%&K Hamas. They are getting what their stupid asses deserve.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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What a bunch or retards.
Last time I checked, shooting rockets into a country was an act of war.
YOu really think a country should not respond to this with force? ESPECIALLY when dealing with suicidal maniacs?
And about the warnings being flawed-- HAHA! Since when does any ohter counytry give arning that they are about to attack an military target?
Seesm that that would give the enemy time to move out the stuff they cared about, huh?
But seen Hamas does not care about anything but destroying Israel. That's the rub.
Hell Hamas killed a lot of Palestinians while they were taking over gaza, taking out all their political rivals permanently.
That's really pathetic. I bet a lot of Palestinians would love to see Hamas gone and let Fatah run things.
BTW, when people are so bent on being idiots that they stay in a spot the know is about to be attacked, whose fault is it when they get killed?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Bookworm if you could substantiate (Israeli propaganda need not apply) any of your outrageous and oft repeated assertions then you would almost be worth listening to. As it is you sound like a bubble in a bathtub.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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It seems obvious that those of you who have absolute clarity about the inviolable moral righteousness regarding Israel's innocence and Hamas's guilt have either skipped or chosen to ignore a great deal of information presented on this thread,
Like the dandy dilema of the reality that Hamas was created and funded by Israel. The thinking was they would be a popular counter force to Arafat's Fatah party, Fatah was so hated by Israel that they had to be brought down. Now they are being presented as "moderate".
And what you also ignore is the reason Hamas may be fighting. Most of you in their shoes would be every bit as blood thirsty.
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shutupandclimb
climber
So. Cal..............d00d
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I'm with dirtineye.
Think about what you guys are saying. What if a rocket landed on your house, or your mom's, or neighbors? Don't be pathetic dimwits.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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You are judging based solely on hearing one endlessly repeated narrative.
Learn more.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Think about what you guys are saying. What if a rocket landed on your house, or your mom's, or neighbors? Don't be pathetic dimwits."
Gosh, when I think about it that way, Nuke em all to death!!!
On the other hand, you just could have easily wrote
"What if you family had been pushed from their lands by some immigrants and squeezed into refugee camps, subjected to searches, roadblocks and air attacks? Suppose an Israeli sniper killed your son in your olive field?"
If we put ourselves into the emotional shoes of either side, we're on their side! Thing is, we've been enabled to see Muslims as so "Bloodthirsty and crazed by anger" that we can't be in their shoes.
I bet if I was standing with boots on your fingers, you would start to look frantic and violent.
And the devil is in the details.
Peace
Karl
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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Bertrand - i'm in - come on down to the Yosemite Lodge food court. I'm there 5x a week and would welcome a kick in the face. Oh, btw, i received an e-mail from an old acquaintance who happens to reside in Holon (just south of Tel Aviv). It was one of those Goebbels propaganda numbers that (in a nutshell) went something along the lines that an Israeli kid has only 15 seconds to respond to a rocket attack. Shame! I ask you, as#@&%e, how much warning does a Palestinian kid get when the F-15's, F-16's & Apaches drop their "loads (sic)?
Oh, by the way you won't miss me- alway's dressed in my blue shirt & black pants uniform and the only one with a bushy beard. You're welcome.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Say what you like about being bloodthirsty and crazed by anger, at least it's an ethos.
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Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
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Karl, the premise isn't that Palestinians lack a legitmate complaint against Israel. It's that Israel, like every sovereign country, has a right to defend itself and the right to crush a group of people who are immovably devoted to Israel's demise.
Whether or not Israel's occupation of the territory has been justified, the past 60 years cannot be undone, and no olive branches now will reverse the jihadists' objective of Israel's destruction.
Let's think of it this way. Termites are hell-bent on eating your house. And, I can understand their imperative. Like termites consuming your house, Hamas activists have proven that they cannot tolerate peace until Israel is annihilated. And Israel has to stop them, (I don't enjoy it, but I will do what it takes to protect my house from termites). Should the Knesset pronounce themselves guilty of the crimes alleged by Palestinian extremists and open the doors to Hamas's judgement? "..Gee guys, you're right, we took your land...go ahead and perpetually shoot rockets at us with no end in sight"
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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"John Ging, the director of the UN Relief and Works
Agency in Gaza said: "Two weeks ago, for the first time in 60 years,
we ran out of food."
This was all during a supposed "cease fire" which meant Hamas was not
attacking Israel at all, and Israel was not committing daily bombing
massacres against the people of Gaza. But the slow massacre of siege,
border closing, lack of fuel and electricity and bread… that was all
part of this "cease fire."
So Olmert's statement that "[t]he quiet we offered was answered with
mayhem. Our desire for calm was answered with terror," is almost
laughable. If it weren't for 271 dead and 900 injured. If it weren't
for the Bush administration's statement that the people in Gaza are
"nothing but thugs" and that Hamas is to blame for Israel's largest
massacre since 1967
Mourid Barghouti, in his 2003 book I Saw Ramallah,
"It is easy to blur the truth with a simple linguistic trick: start
your story from 'Secondly.' Yes, this is what Rabin did. He simply
neglected to speak of what happened first. Start your story with
"Secondly," and the world will be turned upside-down. Start your story
with "Secondly," and the arrows of the Red Indians are the original
criminals and the guns of the white men are entirely the victim. It is
enough to start with "Secondly," for the anger of the black man
against the white to be barbarous. Start with "Secondly," and Gandhi
becomes responsible for the tragedies of the British. You only need to
start your story with "Secondly," and the burned Vietnamese will have
wounded the humanity of the napalm, and Victor Jara's songs will be
the shameful thing and not Pinochet's bullets, which killed so many
thousands in the Santiago stadium. It is enough to start the story
with "Secondly," for my grandmother, Umm 'Ata, to become the criminal
and Ariel Sharon her victim. ...
The houses built on top of ours gallantly declare their willingness to
understand our odd predilection toward living in camps scattered in
the Diaspora of gods and flies, as though we had begged them to throw
us out of our homes and to send their bulldozers to destroy them in
front of our very eyes. Their generous guns in Deir Yassin forgive us
the fact that they piled our bodies high at the sunset hour there one
day. Their fighter jets forgive the graves of our martyrs in Beirut.
Their soldiers forgive the tendency of our teenagers' bones to break.
Israel the victim polishes its hot, red knife with the sheen of
forgiveness."
Nazis, perhaps not.... however, please be aware that in 1933 Zionists leaders bent on the establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine and the Third Reich were in fact business partners on a grand scale. Ever wonder how so many German brands ended up in Israel?
http://www.transferagreement.com/transfer/html/synopsis.php
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shutupandclimb
climber
So. Cal..............d00d
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It was the DECISION of Hamas to locate the centers of military ops. Among the civilian population in the hopes the civilians would act as a human shield against their illegal acts of war and terror against Israel. Hopefully Hamas will lose popular support in Gaza once the average citizen realizes they are being used as unwitting hostages by Hamas.
Think about it Coz. you really aren't that simple are you?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There are 1.4 million people living in Gaza, an area of 360 square kilometres. A very crowded place. It might be difficult to place any government institution there, good or bad, in a location where it wasn't near to or with civilian homes and businesses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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"my question Dirt in the eye, is what do you say to a little girl right before you blow her up? Tell me how you explain to her why she needs to die."
Well first, I tell her parents they are stupid to stay in a place they KNOW is going to be attacked, which is just how Hamas wants it, if you read anything at all about this in the papers.
"Hamas killed 4 people with their rockets 4. Israel has now killed 300, and wounded 3000."
Well gee, I guess lauchind butt loads of crappy rockets against a country that will wseriously kick your ass for it is a really bad idea, huh?
"Why not use special forces to take out Hamas, why blast the sh#t out of kids. Stop your rant and answer my questions, please."
Ahh f*#k you, it's not a rant, I repeat a lot of what experts are saying, from the NY times and various other sources.
As for the special forces, I guess you want Israelis to die when they don't have to, sort of like hamas sacrificing their citizens to gain sympathy from bleeding heart morons huh?
"No one saying Hamas is correct only the response is a little too much and will achieve nothing but more hatred and blood. "
Oh yeah, saying enough is enough and taking severe action against people who are trying to exterminate your people for a long time now and vow to never stop is bad I guess. You are an idiot.
Here's the deal: if you use deadly force, you have to deal with the consequences. It's not like Hamas can't stop the attacks at any time. They CHOOSE to cause problems. They CHOOSE to continue after being warned.
Those morons get what they deserve, and shame on anyone who forces innocents to stand in the path of the destruction. THAT'S truly disgusting, but that does not bother you hamas lovers at all.
Israel is NOT the one making those kids into cannon fodder, it's f*#king Hamas, can't you see that? DAMN IT go buy a clue.
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WBraun
climber
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Hahahaha
The Dirt is BACK!, in fine form ......
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Last night I had pulled 2 photos from that page, and posted on the other "ground assault" thread.
I can't see how people would view those photos and continue to say "hey - sh#t happens."
So I'll post just those two again.
I guess the US made "shock and awe" an acceptable strategy.
I know this analogies aren't easy to make, especially in situations as complicated as this one. But imagine this on a scale we might actually be able to comprehend(I don't think that any of us who haven't lived through a war zone can possibly imagine what it is really like).
Let's imagine the Hamas soldiers are like drug dealers in an inner city. They live in buildings with their families, surrounded by neighbors who may not even be aware they exist. Neighbors who don't HAVE the option to pick up and move just because there are people who bring high risk of violence to the building.
So, the police decide they want to clean up the inner city and they're going to irradicate these drug dealers.
Is it acceptable for them to bulldoze the entire neighborhood in pursuit of that goal? Is it acceptable for them to go to a building where a know dealer lives and blow it up, knowing they will kill children and innocent neighbors in the action? Is it acceptable to go into the apartment of a known dealer and shoot their children because they were in the room before the targeted person?
I know it is not a good analogy, to say Hamas like drug dealer. Please don't focus on that aspect, but the force applied when an authority feels they aren't getting what they want.
Whether one believes Palestinians, or Hamas, or cave-dwelling jihadists who clapped and wooped it up on camera when hearing about 9/11 attacks are "guilty," no one - NO ONE - deserves to suffer and die in the way those photos show.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Happygrrrl, your sweet spirit always comes through loud and clear.
You got something against drugs? (kidding)
I am hard pressed to observe anybody posting on this forum attempting to justify the violent aggressions and provocations of Hamas. There is a distinction between justification of violence, as opposed to comprehending its cause.
However I consistently observe the stubborn and ignorant view that sees all Palestinians as Hamas. I consistently see a refusal to recognize the deplorable living conditions imposed by the blocade, conditions that clearly provoke extremism.
However I think it is safe to say that for the entire Islamic world, US and British complicity in the Zionist movement demands a just resolution. This was an act of brutal displacement.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"What if you family had been pushed from their lands by some immigrants and squeezed into refugee camps, subjected to searches, roadblocks and air attacks? Suppose an Israeli sniper killed your son in your olive field?"
Let's continue this story, Karl.
Now you and your family live in a camp and across a river you see "the Man" and his family enjoying your land. You hate him and you want to kill him.
The Man has a machine gun and a sniper rifle and you don't have any weapons. You loudly tell everyone that you will kill him and his family--just wait and you will find a way.
You build a slingshot. It is powerful enough to kill a person but not very accurate. Every day you shoot over the river at him and his children. The river is wide and they are far away. Most of the time you miss but occasionally you get lucky. You maim one of his children.
He tells you stop shooting your slingshot at him and his family or he will shoot you. You tell him that he stole your land and killed your son. You tell him that you will kill him and his family. You keep shooting your slingshot at them, while using your own children as a human shield.
The neighbors get both of you to agree to a "truce" for several months but when it expires you refuse to renew it. Right after the truce expires you spend all night shooting your slingshot at the Man and his family, again hiding behind your children. You are unable to hit the Man but you maim one of his children.Also, you start building stronger, more accurate slingshots and order a hunting rifle over the Internet.
The next morning, the Man takes his sniper rifle and machine and... finish the story.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Those 2 photos are from the list of the link you made above, I am pretty sure, radical. Somebody posted the link on this thread about 2 pages back.
It was a very powerful set of photos and I think just having the link was too easy for people to ignore. More of those photos should be posted outright.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I See a lot of talk about Hamas here but all the same issues and conflicts were present before Hamas even existed and later when the PLO was in charge.
Israel had taken a lot of land and pushed a lot of people into bantustans many years before the first suicide bombing.
Personally, I can't understand why Hamas would keep firing lame rockets that never hit anybody at Israel every day when they know this is the response they'll get. I'd have been tempted to suspect that it was Israeli spies shooting the rockets to justify the response but hey, I'm not hearing any denials from Hamas?
So it kinda boogles the mind. Why not act a bit straighter so world opinion can justifiably be on your side? Tempted to think it's all about pride and face. Not to be wimps in the face of the world. More likely, they "need" Israel to violently pound them so their case will be on the world stage rather than slowly wasting away in sealed off refugee camps that the world assumes constitute a viable palestinian state.
Peace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Tempted to think it's all about pride and face
It's all about religion and racisim, just read their charter.
There was a chilling special on tonight about one of the sons of one of hamas' founders that now lives in the US.
Hamas is a violent islamic terrorist group that has slaughtered far more Palestinians in the last few years than the Israelis have in the last decade. Over 400 Fatah functinaries in a single week. With gratuitous torture thrown in for good measure.
There has been no outcry from the rest of the arab world for a reason. It is a war against Hamas, not the Palestinians and Egypt, Jordan and the Saudis' all know it and tacitly approve.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Good questions Karl. Mexican "machismo" doesn't come even come close to the Arab variety, honed by hundreds of years of "warrior" identity-cultivation required for survival, ironically, often against other Arab groups.
Add to that the Islamic religious doctrine of Salvation heavily based upon legalistic perfectionism. The only sure bet to paradise is martyrdom.
Most of us can find alot of violence in our heritage and plenty of religious oddity as well. As to vain pride, I see it in the mirror daily.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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TGT writes
"There has been no outcry from the rest of the arab world for a reason. It is a war against Hamas, not the Palestinians and Egypt, Jordan and the Saudis' all know it and tacitly approve. "
Seems reasonable the the Arab world seems to have given up their outcry long ago. Even when Abbas was in power, the Israelis didn't give him support nor concessions and so he couldn't deliver. There was little pressure from the US or the Arabs either.
Seems to me that the Arab world has seen the writing on the wall that the US has them by force, economic or military and that messing with Israel is a lost cause as well, so best to stay out of it.
One of the changes brought about by the end of the cold war. Sad thing is, many Arabs are still pissed at the injustices and so, since the US, UN, and their own governments sit idly, they turn to Al Queda and other militants.
If we had a credible process in place it might be different
Peace
karl
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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What Karl said. What benefits has the Palestinian Authority received for the concessions it has made?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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The Face of Gaza.
The Future of Gaza.
Where do you go?
What do you remember?
Let's not lose our heads while so many others already are!
WAR IS EASY LIFE IS HELL!
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Two literary essays from the BBC, an Israeli writer and a Palestinian:
The World Today asked two writers: one Palestinian and one Israeli, to write an essay on the situation in Gaza.
The first is by an Israeli writer in London, called Daphna Baram:
Thirty-four children were killed in the first week of air strikes
"Silly children why do you die? Why do you die on TV? We took out our settlers, put a wall around you, locked you in, and still you are ungrateful. Cant you understand our need to bomb you? Why do you die on TV? The world is all against us, it always will be, why cant you help us a little, why do you die on TV?
Your suffering masks our historical rights, your ghetto makes ours forgotten, you are the new martyrs, and whats left for us, how dare you die in anonymous mass, well send all our air force to punish you now, how dare you die on TV.
The public is calling for crushing you down, elections are due its a war of survival. It's our homes we defend its our natural right, its the chair in the government for which we will fight, if you dont understand, we shall show you our might, why do you die on TV?
You have to appreciate, time is now scarce, soon enough the tide is to turn. If you will in your cruelty make us march in, and our soldiers, our children, will start dying in your narrow allies, our people will turn on us as swiftly as sin. The gung ho cries would stop, a new circle will begin: what are we doing there? Who sent us in? What is this folly? Why cant we just win?
This is why, silly children, we dont mean to kill you, but we need you do die fast, we need you gone as long as our permission lasts, we need your parents to learn to not mess with us. Cant you do us this favor, for the sake of peace and trust? But please do not die on TV.
We tried it in Jordan, we tried it in Lebanon and when it failed we tried again. No one could blame us for lack of persistence; if our method is broken why fix it? It is your responsibility to make it work at last. It is your responsibility to make us right.
And you have no-one but yourselves to blame if you keep defying us, you have no-one but yourself to blame for turning our claim for victimhood into a farce. It is your fault that we expose out children to your pathetic rockets; it is your fault that not enough of them die to make us look good on TV.
We want to stop, we really do, but you are binding our hands. Why do you enrage us so, why do you die; why do you die on TV?"
End of Section
The second essay is by London-based Palestinian writer, Ghada Karmi.
The beach may look idyllic but no foreign tourist can visit
I stood looking out at an azure blue sea, waves gently lapping against the shore in languid succession. The sky was clear blue as far as the eye could see and the pale sandy beach sloped gracefully into the water. It was a view from the best travel brochure, the perfect beach holiday. Only this was no Riviera - this was Gaza, one of the poorest, most crowded places on earth.
Earlier that day, I had gone for a morning walk along the empty streets, I might have been in India, Cracked pavements , mounds of rubble and sand, overflowing garbage cans. A young boy passed me by, barefoot, sooty black with dirt, his blue eyes and fairish hair suggested his normal complexion was pale. A grubby t-shirt covered his thin angular frame.
In the air, a stench of seaweed and sewage - from the Jewish settlements that discharge raw sewage into Gaza. This was summer 2005, on the eve of Israel's much vaunted withdrawal from Gaza.
When my parents knew it; long before Israel's establishment, it was the fruit basket of Palestine. A place of fertile soil, flourishing orange grove, where flowers carpeted the ground and the scented air each spring. Long ages before that, it had been the home of ancient civilisations, a crossroads for travellers and a haven for visitors and pilgrims.
Who would guess, amid the carnage and destruction of today that this prosperous place once, with ordinary people, leading normal lives? Now Gaza is a prison, surrounded by fences, fitted with sensors and watchtowers, cut off. The psychological effects of isolation can be imagined.
Devoid of contact with other communities - even its own, denied travel to other places, there is little room for news or fresh ideas. Unsurprisingly, society is closed, religious and conservative. Extremism, conspiracy theories and suspicion thrive in such environments and Gaza is prey to all of these.
Decades of Israeli occupation has led to plunder of its resources and impoverishment. The wonder was that it was still functioning at all when I saw it and that its people still retained a spirit of endurance and humanity.
I was repeatedly struck by their warmth and kindness, as well as their defiance in the face of one of the harshest regimes of colonisation in history. I cannot begin to imagine their condition now.
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Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
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And? Bruno, do you think this "Daphna Baram" in any way represents the case for Israel's defense?
That "essay" reads like one written by a London-based apologist with a 6th grade education.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Glad you read those Bertrand. No, of course I don't think the first essay to be representative of anything but dissenting voices within Israel.
There is a crucial point being made and I wonder if you missed it: It is a mistake to assume a simplistic view of both Israel and Palestine.
What cause is served by casting rash, demeaning judgements of academic accomplishment? All truth is not necessarily polemical in nature. I was saddened immensely before going to bed, by the compelling photo post of Philo's. What a tragic Christmas season this has been. At such times, I confess, I do search out emotive truths and strengths, most notably, "The Lord's Prayer."
In your original Termite post, you, yourself used the terms Hamas and "Palestinians" as though they are one and the same. I 'm glad to see you've edited it now (our loose forum policy is to indicate our edits, by the way).
Recognizing the actual state of affairs demographically as well as connecting empathetically to universal, flawed Humanity, is a starting point for intelligent discussion, rather than a "good guys/bad guys" delusion. I expect you agree. Thanks, Bruce
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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ok, maybe the 30 minute claim is not accurate, but, as has been noted, at least the israelis try to warn their enemies, which is an excellent example of the absurdity of the original post
golly gee, we should have warned hitler we were landing at normandy...after all, our attempts to liberate europe are no better (or worse as some of you might prefer) than hitler's attempts to conquer europe...let's see, how does one win a war against evil? ah, by making nice...we should have just let hitler have the sudetenland and the rest of czech and poland...wait, we did, but he still invaded france...ah, who cares about france...the point is, hitler was no threat to us and he was just responding to the "oppression" of his people by the rest of europe (not to mention those evil jews)...you know, if we had just given our support to hitler rather than the people he was attacking, we could have had peace and we probably could have ended war forever because now we'd all be friends (see, hitler was friends with the arabs in palestine, too) and there certainly wouldn't be any jews screwing things up again and again...war! what is it good for? absolutely nothing!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123111998269852943.html?mod=rss_opinion_main
http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275324.html
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Really interesting post Dingus. I once thought "Lame Duck" was the discription of a crippled bird.
Now I wonder if it is a modified verb.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Good Morning Bookworm,
I do think you bring up the central concept in all this--the proposition of a "Just War."
Unfortunately, the waters are muddied by the selective failure to recognize that history is dynamic. (Arab political allignments in WWII, since after all, Germany and Japan are now allies.)
The photographic post is interesting to me personally as I was once a journalism student. True some things are not at all as they appear, but on the other hand some things are exactly as they blatantly appear. You are free to take you trad cam over there and show us how it really is. It just seems a mean-spirited addition to this thread in the face of the recent photos posted above. Are you suggesting these photos of human beings crushed in rubble have been photo shopped? I know you have a heart somewhere in that chest cavity. Cardio is crucial for enduro sends!
It might be more appropriate to explore the limitations being placed upon journalists in Gaza and to respectfully note the extreme dangers some of them are willing to risk, from both Israeli shrapnel and showboat beheadings. Bruce
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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I am more than sick and tired of those few who insist on perpetuating some deplorable lies and disinformation. Regardless of how many times they are presented with credible information to the contrary they cannot let go of the narrative they have been force fed most of their sheltered lives. To lend weight to their flimsy beliefs they quote war mongers who have a vested interest in continued conflict.
They want to insist that the IDF is doing EVERYTHING it can to minimize civilian casualties. Nothing could be further from the truth. Civilian death and destruction has by design has been maximized.
They continue to insist that the IDF is acting morally as they give fair warning. To be clear ten minutes is not fair warning to civilians. The reality is there is rarely 3 minutes given between the "knock" and the destruction. It is just enough time to create the horror of chaos. Then after watching where every one runs they target those areas.
They doggedly cling to the absurd notion that Hamas uses their own children as human shields. Thus they can justify the unjustifiable. They wanton destruction and death of civilians in a colonial war of acquisition. If you seriously think these desperate humans would use their own children as human shields then I would say your grasp of reality is at best questionable. But it is vastly more comfortable to believe what the perpetrators of this humanitarian crisis want you to believe. Facing the truth and your own complicity of silence is painful. But not quite as painful as watching your family blown to shreds or being crushed in the rubbled remains of your home.
And Lord knows we wouldn't want any war mongers to feel any discomfort now would we?
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couchmaster
climber
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Karl Baba said: Personally, I can't understand why Hamas would keep firing lame rockets that never hit anybody at Israel every day when they know this is the response they'll get. I'd have been tempted to suspect that it was Israeli spies shooting the rockets to justify the response but hey, I'm not hearing any denials from Hamas?
So it kinda boogles the mind. Why not act a bit straighter so world opinion can justifiably be on your side? Tempted to think it's all about pride and face. Not to be wimps in the face of the world. More likely, they "need" Israel to violently pound them so their case will be on the world stage rather than slowly wasting away in sealed off refugee camps that the world assumes constitute a viable palestinian state.
Yeah I agree with that sediment too Karl, and the Arabs in Palistine keep saying THEY are at war with Israel too. This explains the rockets everyday. So the Israelis blockaid the place to keep munitions out. Like this Iranian ship they caought trying to smuggle in 50 tons of armaments in 2002. http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2002/Seizing%20of%20the%20Palestinian%20weapons%20ship%20Karine%20A%20-
Curious.
I read Al Jeezera and from what I read they are saying is it looks like they only want Israel gone and the Jews there dead if they are not gone. Dead and gone. Gone and dead. Their women and children too. Thats what it appears they want. Then when the land of Israel is no more, they will have peace. After the Jews are dead and gone. Then peace. Of course they say they don't believe in targeting civilians, yet 90 percent of their actions counter that lie. They often recruit walking bombs to walk into a crowded public spot and blow up all the men, women and children that are there. They toss rockets that have no guidance controls right into cities. Hoping that there are many deaths.
Interestingly, the US killed hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of civilians during WW2, many many many women and children. We killed the kids, dogs and even their goldfish and pet birds too. We burned their homes and leveled cities in at least 3 continents, maybe more. We killed them all. Yet rare is the apologist saying we should NOT have fought at all. During the last war, which is still going on, we killed and continue to kill women and children too. We try hard to not do this, but it is unavoidable. War sucks. Peace is the answer to avoidance.
-However-
There are 2 sides to every story, in this case there may be 5 or 6. I hope for peace there as well: as do ALL OF US HERE, but it takes 2 to tango and 2 to become friends. Perhaps the Lion will not lay down with the lamb anytime soon: in which case, you have to choose a side. That is what many here have done. That is what the US has done. Obama has been very silent on the invasion. He too, will eventually choose a side Coz. That side will be with our friends in Israel. He too, will hope for peace.
But that takes 2 sides.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dingus
I think folks are blowing smoke about Iran having a major involvement. Iran is MUCH more connected with Hezbollah and Lebanon, not Hamas in Gaza.
And somewhat the opposite might be going on. Iran would certainly be upset seeing the Gaza strikes and both the Lebanon invasion a few years back and this Gaza invasion could have been attempts to draw hostile forces into attacking and thus creating the justification for a wider war. Israel doesn't feel they have the international cover to just go bomb Iran. Even Bush said no to it.
peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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So the abusive husband returns to his wife and kids frustrated from another day of failure to make those, deemed most responsible for his sufferings, pay the piper.
Drunk on booze and besotted by a fear of impotence he turns the rage of his vengeful heart to the only victim anyone could justify. Damn that barking dog chained in it's cage! "I fed you yesterday now STFU!". "LOOK"! he screams for all to hear "at the bite mark on my hand". "F*#kin' Bitch DESERVED it!" his righteous rave on the way home from a shallow rubbled grave.
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couchmaster
climber
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Karl, my link has this story about Iran/Palistine weapons:
"Seizing of the Palestinian weapons ship Karine A
January 4, 2002
©2002
Weapons seized on the Karine A
(Jan 4)
A ship carrying weapons intended for the Palestinian Authority was captured in the Red Sea by Israel's Navy and Air Force. The boat's cargo included 50 tons of advanced weaponry including Katyusha rockets, rifles, mortar shells, mines and a variety of anti-tank missiles. Senior figures in the Palestinian Authority were involved in the smuggling.
On January 3rd, the Israeli Navy seized control over the Karine A ship that was sailing in international waters on its way to the Suez Canal.
The shipment included both 122 mm. and 107 mm. Katyusha rockets, which have ranges of 20 and 8 kilometers respectively. It also contained 80 mm. and 120 mm. mortar shells, various types of anti-tank missiles, anti-tank mines, sniper rifles, Kalashnikov rifles and ammunition. From Gaza, the 122 mm. Katyushas could have threatened Ashkelon and other coastal cities; while from the West Bank, Ben-Gurion International Airport and several major Israeli cities would have been within their range. The shipment also included rubber boats and diving equipment, which would have facilitated seaborne attacks from Gaza against coastal cities.
Preliminary investigation of the crew members has revealed so far that the commanding officer of the ship is Colonel Omar Akawi. The ship was purchased by the Palestinian Authority, loaded with weapons by the Iranians and the Hizbullah, manned by Palestinian Authority personnel, with the aim of transfering the weapons it carried to the Palestinian Naval Police near the Gaza beaches.
Since October 2000, Adel Mughrabi, a major buyer in the Palestinian weapons purchasing system (with the assistance of the Palestinian Naval Police Commander Juma'a Ghali and his executive Fathi Ghazem), has been in contact with the Iranians and Hizbullah regarding a vast weapons smuggling operation for the use of the Palestinian Authority. This operation included the testing and purchase of ships, forming a sailing crew and appointing a commander for the team, as well as making arrangements as to how the weapons would be stored, loaded onto the vessels, and its journey until delivery to the Palestinian Authority.
Preliminary investigation of the team members arrested revealed that the Karine A ship was purchased by Adel Mughrabi in Lebanon, sailed to Sudan where it was loaded with regular cargo. The crew was then switched with the team members and in November 2001 sailed to Hodeida port in Yemen.
In December 2001 the ship sailed according to detailed instructions from Adel Mughrabi to the beaches of Iran near Qeshm Island. There a ferry approached it, most likely arriving from Iran, from which the weapons stored in 80 large wooden crates were transferred and loaded onto the ship. These weapons were stored in special waterproof containers produced only in Iran, which are floatable and are set with a special configurable system that determines how deep they are submerged, were prepared by Hizbullah personnel for smuggling to the Palestinian Authority. Included in the ferry team which transferred the weapons crates to the ship was also a Lebanese trainer, a Hizbullah operative who trained a diver from the ship's crew in configuring the floatation devices in Lebanon. The trainer was present for yet another refreshing training session prior to the sailing.
After completing the loading process of the weapons onto the ship, the ship had to divert to Hodeida port in Yemen due to technical problems. After crossing the canal, the ship was supposed to meet with three smaller ships that were purchased in advance and to unload the weapons onto them. According to the plan, the smaller ships were to leave the weapons near El Arish in Gaza, where the weapons were to be taken by the commander of the Palestinian Naval Police Juma'a Ghali and his executive Fathi Ghazem. "
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dirtbag
climber
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For once I find myself agreeing with my conservative friends here.
It is unrealistic to expect a state such as Israel to sit back forever while another state hostile to its very existence continues to lob missiles. Someone earlier wondered what the U.S. would do if the goverment of Mexico continued to fire missiles from Tijuana. I think that's a fair analogy. And while I am far from an Israel apologist, and generally wish pox on both houses, let's not lose sight of the fact that Hamas is a bunch of as#@&%es, even to their own people: so why give them a pass on this? They deserve the lion's share of the blame for the tragic consequences of the past few weeks.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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You know I must admit that I did exaggerate in an earlier post. The one about my encounter with a unmarked vehicle. I said, because I had climbed all the big bad Black Canyon routes, I didn't intimidate easily. And that was a stretch. Truth is I only climbed some of the earliest ascents of most of the major wall routes of the day. There are more new routes there now than there were routes in total when we were there. So I suppose I am still intimidate-able.
Everything else I said was true. I thought about that encounter a lot. Running it over and over in my mind looking for further clues. On further retrospect I find it probable these "gentlemen" were not Mossad. They were not likely "professionals". But rather self proclaimed "para"professionals. They were awkward and unsure as if caught at unawares and unprepared. They scared too easily. Street punks, drug dealers and drunken collegians don't tend to back down when the numerical advantage is in their court. And the pros don't slip information and then become intimidated. These guys were plainly not prepared to "act" and so withdrew. There is a "smell" peculiar to those who spend a lot of time shooting and cleaning fire arms particularly when the meticulously maintained weapon is also in close proximity.
This sedan smelled of that. I believe I caught them off guard by doing something unlike observed patterns. Not knowing what else to do they made contact in an crude attempt at intimidation. As my artist's eye and attention to details replays I see their rumpled jackets as hastily employed cover for what I believe were guns being cleaned in their laps. They had clearly been watching the house from this car parked across and down the street. The strong winds of Boulder had just previously dismantled the fence in the back yard laying the neighborhood open for the wanderlust of a dog's nose. So unlike my previous and usual pattern that night I was out walking the dog. As to my dog she is the sweetest, most adorable and compassionate creature on four legs. UNLESS! unless she senses a threat to her pack. There have been a few occasions where I have seen her "dark" side and I find my self glad I am the Alpha of her pack. That night she was sensing something she did not like at all. Perhaps her actions dissuaded them from further action. They just went around the corner re-parked and watched me and the dog disappear into the park. They were gone when I returned 20 minutes later. And I haven't seen that car with the muddy plates in the neighborhood since. The truth is they were parked watching my neighborhood. I remember clearly their lights and engine coming on behind me as I turned towards the park and away from them. Their motivations for such careful vigilance are assumable but unclear. They did know my wife's and at least one of my kid's names. They "slipped" with this knowledge. Something a "pro" would be unlikely to do. That is where I stopped them. My family is OFF LIMITS! Even though their vehicle had the unmistakable air of threat I could not allow them to tacitly threaten my family's well being. Could any of you? Do you think the local authorities would take this seriously without "proof" of harm?
They were there! Why were the there? My take is that they were vigilante wannabes on a stakeout. Where did they come from?
It would been natural for anyone of you to ask why us? I have already explained that My wife's Palestinian heritage and her active anti war Quaker associations are alone enough to put us on the radar as "subjects of interest". The prominence of her family is a double edged sword. I believe it has kept us in a "look but don't touch" status but I am also sure it has put us in the "under a microscope" category. Add in my past travels through troubled lands and we become a giant curiosity. When attending anti war or pro Palestinian events our pictures have been taken with more facial recognition technology than Paris Hilton. I know only to well whn I am being followed home or paid too much attention to. Paranoid? When passing through the gauntlet of irrationally rabid Arab loathing pro Israelis that line the entrance to every event we encounter more than hate filled taunts and mindless accusations. More than the detirus and bodily fluids sometimes hurled our way. We encounter those who address us hatefully by name. We are not unknown. We are not hidden. We are not immune from being targeted for if nothing else an attempt to silence our dissent. You may choose not to believe me. But my point is that these things are happening here and now, They are happening to honest well meaning Americans who choose to "SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER". My wife has been a target of anti Arab hate and rhetoric her whole life. She is innocent of wrong doing but made to feel the guilt of responsibility by a society willingly blinding it's self to the reality of human suffering.
"NEVER AGAIN" should not apply solely to Jews!
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Well Philo, if they whack you, then we'll know. Just to help a little, stay away from your computer. Those Mossad fellows are clever and might slip a little something in the works that would blow you through the ceiling.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/
israel's battles against terror and tyranny are OUR battles, too...let's consider that the israelis decides to pull out of israel altogether (god forbid), do you think hamas, hezbollah, etc. will be satisfied? do you think they would focus all their energy and money on improving life for their people and building a peaceful nation? well, it hasn't happened in lebanon or gaza--the jury is still out on the west bank but remains hopeful
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Hush little baby don't you cry...
And if that Mocking bird won't sing...
540 Palestinians killed compared to 4 Israeli citizens and 1 IDF soldier. And the rockets keep raining down on all those desperately terrorized Jews. This is tantamount to the horrors of the Warsaw Ghetto.
Hitler's dreaded SS used to impose a 100 to 1 ratio in their acts of retribution for any German killed by the Polish underground. And yet the "stupid pollocks" continued to resist.
The IDF is targeting Hospitals, clinics and schools where displaced children gather.
They are targeting Ambulances and medics trying to reach the wounded and dying.
No wonder the Israelis wont allow the world press in. Hard to claim the terrorists were cowering behind diapers and apron strings when the mangled body parts aren't clutching weapons.
How much more death and destruction will it take to quench the blood lust of revenge? When will the FatTrads of the world say enough? NEVER AGAIN!
Delusional? Yeah I am delusional enough to believe that some of you who's hearts have not been permanently blackened by Fox news and AIPAC might just read the truth and weep.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200915143237167997.html
Civilian deaths mount in Gaza war
Women and children are among the many
Palestinian casualties [AFP]
Palestinian civilians are continuing to suffer as the Israeli military pushes deeper into the Gaza Strip.
At least 540 people have been killed in the territory in the last 10 days, with at least 100 deaths reported since the Israeli ground offensive began on Saturday.
Among the dead on Monday was a family of seven from Shati refugee camp, who were killed by Israeli navy shelling.
Three siblings from one family, as well as a girl and her grandfather, also died in the Zeitoun neighbourhood of Gaza during artillery shelling.
Emergency medical services have also come under attack with the al-Awda hospital in Jabaliya being hit by two Israeli shells, foreign human rights activists said.
"Two consecutive shells just landed in the busy car park 15 metres from the entrance to the emergency room," Alberto Arce of the International Solidarity Movement said in a statement.
"The entrance of the emergency room was damaged. At the time of the shelling ambulances were bringing in the wounded that keep pouring in."
Medics killed
On Sunday, an Israeli raid killed at least four paramedics as they tried to reach wounded Palestinians. Ambulances have also been hit in the attacks, Palestinian sources said.
IN DEPTH
Latest news and analysis from Gaza and Israel
Al Jazeera Labs: Report on and track the war
Send us your views and eyewitness videos
Watch our coverage of the war on Gaza Israeli government officials say they are not targeting civilians, but only seeking to halt rocket fire from the Palestinian Hamas movement governing Gaza.
There are also fears that the humanitarian situation will further deteriorate as the strip, home to 1.5 million people, is suffering from acute shortages of fuel, food and medical supplies.
Iyad Nasr of the Red Cross in Gaza City said that the military operation has worsened the hardships created by the Israeli blockade over the last 18 months.
"The size of the operations and the size of the misery we are seeing here on the ground is just overwhelming," he said.
"We are trying our best to support the infrastructure that has been depleted ... and prevent the total collapse of the medical systems.
Nasr also said that aid workers and emregency medical personnel were finding it increasingly difficult to move around the territory after the Israeli military effectively split it in two.
"The ICRC has to contact the Israeli authorities for each single wounded to be evacuated with an ambulance," he said.
Al Jazeera's Ayman Mohyeldin, reporting from Gaza City, said that many other Gazans have fled their homes taking refuge in schools converted into temporary shelters by UN agencies.
"The United Nations says 13,000 people, over 2,000 families, have now been internally displaced because of the fighting, and that is just in the north of the strip," he said.
'People are suffering'
Tzipi Livni, the Israeli foreign minister, has said that there is no crisis and that aid is getting through, but Christopher Gunness, the UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa) spokesman, said her denials were absurd.
"The organisation for which I work - Unrwa - has approximately 9,000 to 10,000 workers on the ground. They are speaking with the ordinary civilians in Gaza... People are suffering," he said.
Thousands of Palestinians have fled their homes and taken refuge in schools [EPA] "A quarter of all those being killed now are civilians. So when I hear people say we're doing our best to avoid civilian casualties that rings very hollow indeed."
About 250,000 people in the northern part of Gaza are also reported to be without electricity. The main power plant has been shut down for lack of fuel due to Israel's blockade.
The British-based Save The Children charity on Monday warned that newborn babies in the Gaza strip were at risk of hypothermia because of the power cuts and freezing winter temperatures.
"We need to deliver more food and blankets to ensure that children do not die of hunger and cold," Dominic Nutt, a spokesman for the group, said.
"People also must be able to move freely and safely so they can provide for their families when food does become available."
Despite the crisis in Gaza, Mahmoud al-Zahar, a senior Hamas official, said the group was heading for "victory" against the Israeli military.
He said that Hamas's armed wing, the Izz-e-din al-Qassam Brigades, had "given the most beautiful performances during its confrontation with the army that the world thought invincible".
Palestinian factions have continued to launch rockets into southern Israel, despite more than a week of aerial bombardment by Israel and the ground offensive.
One Israeli soldier has been confirmed killed in the Gaza assault so far, with at least 49 others wounded. Four Israelis have also been killed by Palestinian rockets.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"It is unrealistic to expect a state such as Israel to sit back forever while another state hostile to its very existence continues to lob missiles. Someone earlier wondered what the U.S. would do if the goverment of Mexico continued to fire missiles from Tijuana."
You forget to include both sides of the provocation. Would it be OK for the US to forcibly confiscate the best areas of Baja, against it's own agreed upon international obligations and start US towns there?
A lot of Israel's crimes have nothing to do with self defense but are pure land grap and ethnic cleansing. Any attempt to put all the blame in the Palestinians without acknowledging that they have some good reasons to fight back are lopsided and misleading.
Just as the group in Israel "Peace Now" keeps saying, the illegal settlement activity and land grapping has to stop before any of Israel's righteous bombings and invasions start to have moral authority.
And it's pretty sad that Israel is now said to be using phosphorus weapons in Gaza, one of the most densely populated places on earth
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/01/05-0
"The Geneva Treaty of 1980 stipulates that white phosphorus should not be used as a weapon of war in civilian areas, but there is no blanket ban under international law on its use as a smokescreen or for illumination. However, Charles Heyman, a military expert and former major in the British Army, said: "If white phosphorus was deliberately fired at a crowd of people someone would end up in The Hague. White phosphorus is also a terror weapon. The descending blobs of phosphorus will burn when in contact with skin."
The stuff doesn't stop burning, It can burn you to the bone. Not exactly a precise weapon for urban warfare
PEace
karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Thousands of Palestinians have fled their homes and taken refuge in schools [EPA] "A quarter of all those being killed now are civilians. So when I hear people say we're doing our best to avoid civilian casualties that rings very hollow indeed."
About 250,000 people in the northern part of Gaza are also reported to be without electricity. The main power plant has been shut down for lack of fuel due to Israel's blockade.
The British-based Save The Children charity on Monday warned that newborn babies in the Gaza strip were at risk of hypothermia because of the power cuts and freezing winter temperatures.
I've heard white phosphorous can really keep you warm. Maybe this is really more largesse of Israeli humanitarianism. Don't want no babies gettin' cold before their time. Eh?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Your bleeding heart touched me Philo. Hamas loves all the blood and guts. The more the better for them since they use it for propaganda purposes. Hamas wanted this fight and have gotten more than they bargained for. Cry me a river Philo. Look to Hamas if you want to condemn some group. Hamas doesn't give a rat's ass about Palestinian casualties, the more the better.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Could you DaftRat? Would you?
And Woody I feel sorry for you. In your deluded war hawk machismo you are a pawn to the insidious lies of the occupying power. You refuse to glimpse any glint of truth that hasn't been gift wrap in the one sided narrative you blindly and callously cling to.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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So are the Israeli leaders to do in Gaza as their US counterparts did in Iraq and
throw the baby out with the Bathist?
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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Stalin - Hitler - Pol Pot - Meir, Rabin,Begin, Shamir, Sharon, Netanyahu, Barak (Ehud), Olmert. Murderous scum.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Good list but you missed Allende, Johnson, Nixon and Kissinger to name a few.
Edit to say OOPs I meant to type Pinnochet my bad.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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The solution is to give Gaza back to Egypt, if they still want it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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The solution is a one state democratic union where all citizens of widest diversity are alloted the same right to peace, justice, freedom and the pursuit of happiness. Where all citizens are emboldened by the responsibility of electing the most suitable representative. Where collaboration not conflict is the norm. Where all children can grow up to be the best they can be no matter who they pray goodnight to..
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"I've often written that I hope for a homeland for the Palestinian people, but maybe you're right, maybe they are incapable and should live as a minority group within Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon."
Sounds like you are coming around to the expulsion option Dafty. thought you said no one meant that any more.
What they need is to live in freedom and dignity in a land they too can call home.
The land can be shared if liberty and justice are likewise mutual. ONE STATE.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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For practical purposes, Kissinger and Nixon murdered Allende. Hard to see how they can be lumped together. Allende may have been a 'socialist', and liked his anti-US rhetoric, but he was democratically elected. The CIA sponsored coup against him in 1973 was an evil day in US history.
I guess he should instead have been one of the nasty military dictators that the US likes so much to have power in Latin America. Like Pinochet.
Edit: Moved, so that Tami can be 666, and FatTrad has to settle for runner-up.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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i was wrong.
israeli zionism > nazism.
isn't there going to
be an election in the region
soon?
wonder what that has to
do with whats going on.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"The solution is a one state democratic union where all citizens of widest diversity are alloted the same right to peace, justice, freedom and the pursuit of happiness. Where all citizens are emboldened by the responsibility of electing the most suitable representative. Where collaboration not conflict is the norm. Where all children can grow up to be the best they can be no matter who they pray goodnight to."
sounds like israel with its 1.4 million arabs, including muslims, christians, and druze
the egypt solution won't work, either, because egypt would love to have gaza but doesn't want the palestinians for the same reasons nobody else wanted them (only jordan accepted them) when they fled israel
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Philo, before Israel occupied Gaza it was adminstered by Egypt. Gaza would become Egyption territory again. No one would be be expelled.
I don't believe that Palestinians or any other people are unable to govern themselves, but Gaza is not viable as a country by istself and is too isolated from the West Bank for the two to be part of fuctional unified country.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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True about the vast separation between Gaza and the West Bank making Statehood virtually impossible.
But not about Arab opinion towards the Palestinians. Before the Naqba drove the Palestinians into a Diaspora they were the learned peoples of the Arab world. Highly educated highly regarded doctors, engineers, lawyers, mathematicians, poets and artists. The other Arab countries CAN NOT take them all. The Palestinians are not considered undesirables. On the contrary Diaspora Palestinians have been tremendously successful and beneficial in countries all around the world. The other Arab countries CAN NOT take them all. Not because they will not help. But because any such allowance will lend insurmountable weight to Israel's intention to expel and annex the whole land.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"the egypt solution won't work, either, because egypt would love to have gaza but doesn't want the palestinians for the same reasons nobody else wanted them (only jordan accepted them) when they fled israel."
And then Jordan pushed them into Lebannon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan
More Palestinians died in Black September then in any conflict with the Israelis, but that's overlooked becasue they are killed by other moslems.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Or maybe Gaza could temporaily become a Egyption protectorate?
After reading more about Gaza one thing is clear to me. The Israeli economic blockade has only empowered Hamas by giving them control of the black market. They make money by controling the smuggling tunnels.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"Israel's intention to expel and annex the whole land"
i think you have this backwards...it's hamas and hezbollah (as well as syria and iran) who have the "intention" to expel the "jewish vermin" from israel
i bet if you ask the palestinians in the west bank if they want to join with palestinians in gaza, most would say "NO!"
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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I agree that Gaza/WB could work, althought it would not be as easy as Gaza/Egypt. For Gaza/WB to work, there would need to be a lot more cooperation between the Gaza/WB and Israel: an air and ground transportation corridor over Israel and sharing of resources such as water and power.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"The Palestinians are not considered undesirables. On the contrary Diaspora Palestinians have been tremendously successful and beneficial in countries all around the world."
I should have clarified... it was the PLO, not the Palestinian people, that Jordan (and later Lebanon) had a problem with.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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fattrad, the ecomomic blockade is more of a factor then the jihad. The economic blockade was intended to "punish" Hamas but it has just made them stronger.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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And exactly how would people living on the brink of the stone age ever dislodge the 4th mightiest military on the planet? How will starving freezing refugees of Palestine ever drive the children of Israel in to the sea? Don't you see the absurdity it that assertion. HOW WILL THEY DO IT? They may hope and pray for it but how would they ever have a chance to accomplish it? It is a shame that you have been falsely taught that total destruction of Israel is the only outcome acceptable to Palestinians. It is tragic in fact because your ignorance of both the PA's and before them the PLO's publicly acknowledged "right of Israel to Exist" allows you to justify an utterly disproportionate blood bath based on an endlessly perpetrated myth of disinformation.
If you had bothered to invest the ten minutes it would have taken to watch the powerpoint about Israeli History X. You would have read the true intentions of the founders and leaders of Zionism and Israel in their own words. Then you might not have the gall and temerity to make such utterly uninformed and ridiculous statements claimed as fact.
You have allowed yourself to become a dittohead for Zionism and absolved yourself of any moral responsibility.
Here is a link to it for convenience;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1UEjgXfYdw
And here is a link to a 5 minute presentation.
Because Fattrad would have you believe that there were no Palestinians before they showed up to make life unpleasant for Jews. Here is one about the Palestinians before the Naqba.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjEBQ_bE7uA&NR=1
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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So what was the point behind Hamas launching rockets at "the 4th mightiest military on the planet" again?
Perhaps Hamas' efforts should have been directed toward assisting the legions of "starving freezing refugees of Palestine" instead of launching rockets at Israel.
Hamas can find the funds for thousands of rockets, yet they turn their backs on their own starving people.
Hamas isn't generating any sympathy for their side.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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The point Chaz is resistance which unlike yourself is not futile.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Your *resistance* turned out not only to be futile, but worse, counterproductive to say the least.
Firing rockets that weren't aimed at military targets gave Israel all the cover they needed to kill as many Palestinians as they feel like.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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And all the money flows from misguided American foreign right to the burgeoning coffers of the IDF and ever expanding unsettlements.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Just like the Third Reich's retribution for the futility of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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So you're saying we need to abandon Jimmy Carter's Camp David Accords, Philo?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Yes Chaz.
Don't you guys ever read climbing posts? I have some doozies going. Check them out. Maybe you wlll learn to hate less of me.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Cool!
I don't think our Government should be taking money from any American to give to another person for nothing, most especially a foriegner.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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“I hope for peace there as well: as do ALL OF US HERE,…”
Not true.
Two Minutes to Midnight
Powerslave, 1984
Kill for gain or shoot to maim, but we don't need a reason
The Golden Goose is on the loose and never out of season
Blackened pride still burns inside this shell of bloody treason
Here's my gun for a barrel of fun for the love of living death
The killer's breed or the demon's seed
The glamour, the fortune, the pain
Go to war again, blood is freedom's stain
But don't you pray for my soul anymore
2 minutes to midnight, the hands that threaten doom
2 minutes to midnight, to kill the unborn in the womb
The blind men shout let the creatures out, we'll show the unbelievers
The napalm screams of human flames, of a prime time Belsen feast...YEAH!
As the reasons for the carnage cut their meat and lick the gravy
We oil the jaws of the war machine and feed it with our babies
The killer's breed or the demon's seed
The glamour, the fortune, the pain
Go to war again, blood is freedom's stain
But don't you pray for my soul anymore
2 minutes to midnight, the hands that threaten doom
2 minutes to midnight, to kill the unborn in the womb
The body bags and little rags of children torn in two
And the jellied brains of those who remain to put the finger right on you
As the madmen play on words and make us all dance to their song
To the tune of starving millions, to make a better kind of gun
The killer's breed or the demon's seed
The glamour, the fortune, the pain
Go to war again, blood is freedom's stain
But don't you pray for my soul anymore
2 minutes to midnight, the hands that threaten doom
2 minutes to midnight, to kill the unborn in the womb
Midnight...midnight....it's all night
Midnight...midnight....all night!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"Just like the Third Reich's retribution for the futility of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising."
there you go again, philo, with your odious comparisons...the jews in warsaw did not have their own state with their own sovereign government; they weren't free to develop industry, agriculture, and trade; they weren't free to build schools and hospitals; they weren't free to receive money and other aid from the world (including, most generously, america)...see, for the jews in warsaw, an uprising was their ONLY chance for SURVIVAL; their uprising did not target innocent german civilians; they were not calling for the destruction of germany or seeking the elimination of the german people (or even christians or muslims)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"there you go again, philo, with your odious comparisons"
So let me see if I have this straight BookWorm. You don't care about the horrific actions of the IDF. Or the more than 100 to 1 disparity in kill ratio. Or the reality that so many of their actions have been correctly labeled war crimes by the world (excluding US). You are specifically upset my the audacity of anyone daring to link the words Nazi and Israel. A few on the TacoStand have absolutely no hesitation to spew forth with the insidious term "IslamoFacists. That's OK because Muslims are not real humans like we are right. But God forbid anyone should intimate the correlation NazRaelis. Well I didn't say it first. It was first brought to world attention by prominent Jews who were deeply troubled by the direction Israel was headed.
Prominent Jewish survivors of WW2 like Albert Einstein. But that no nothing lunatic fool is dead so no use kicking him in the balls. Not when philo is such a convenient target. Bookworm the correlation between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto is closer than you dare accept. In fact one of the bigger differences is that the Jews of the Ghetto had much greater freedom of movement than the Arabs of Gaza. It was what allowed them to stage as effective of an uprising as they did. The lessons of that freedom of movement were not lost on the Eastern European Jews who survived and founded Israel. Which is why they impose such draconian restrictions on Palestinian movement these days. Besides it is so much easier to shoot fish in a barrel anyway.
So Bookworm, tho the shoe fits well enough and it was first commented on by Jews in the know, You get in-sensed if anyone dares to put those five syllables together.
Well you know I get at least as in-sensed when some ST posters cheer for more killing of Arabs. I am just putting words together. They are calling for ethnic cleansing and genocide. Who should you really be upset with?
"There are only two lasting bequests we can give our children. One is roots; the other, wings." Hodding Carter
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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who is calling for ethnic cleansing and genocide? ah yes, hamas and hezbollah and iran and a few others...do i want the killing to stop? yes...do i hope the israelis never again kill a single arab (or anyone else)? yes...i also believe that israel--and every other nation--has a right and an obligation to protect itself from enemies, especially enemies who attack EVERY SINGLE DAY, especially enemies who specifically target civilians while intentionally endangering their own people by using them as shields
what are the options?
1. hamas/hezbollah could accept israel's right to exist, commit themselves to peaceful relations (or, at least, peaceful indifference) with a democratic and prosperous neighbor, and stop ALL attacks
OR
2. israel can wipe out hamas, destroy hamas' ability to attack and reorganize/re-arm
chances for success? probably zero
why? because hamas will never do the first and because israel will stop before they achieve success because of pressure not only from the world but also from critics (including jews) inside their own government
who has always honored cease-fires, truces, treaties? that would be israel...what do they get in return? that would be more bombs and rockets...
your comparisons are odious because they are simplistic: killing = nazis...by your standards, lincoln, fdr, and truman were nazis because they understood the only way to achieve lasting peace was by destroying the enemy
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Mr. Sharansky, former deputy prime minister of Israel, is chairman of the Adelson Institute for Strategic Studies at the Shalem Center and the author, most recently, of "Defending Identity" (PublicAffairs, 2008).
No personal bias in those words. No rhetorical agenda in the choice of verbiage either.
I think this guy will have a great career as a ME political analyst on FOX.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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'who has always honored cease-fires, truces, treaties?'
You say Israel.
Now you are in the delusional-shill category.
How many UN resolutions have the Israelis ignored?
What did Israel do on Nov 4/5 2008?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053138.html
Last update - 18:42 06/01/2009
40 Palestinians killed in IDF strike on UN school
By News Agencies
Tags: Israel News, Hamas, Gaza
Israel Defense Forces tank fire killed up to 40 Palestinians at a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, medical sources at two hospitals said.
The attack brought the Palestinian death toll to nearly 600 in Israel's 11-day offensive on the Hamas-ruled coastal territory.
Advertisement
Two tank shells exploded outside the Gaza school, spraying shrapnel on people inside and outside the building, where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge from fighting between Israeli soldiers and Hamas militants. In addition to the dead, several dozen people were wounded, the officials said.
Medical officials said all the dead were either people sheltering in the school or local residents.
Also on Tuesday, Israel Air Force warplanes struck a building in Gaza in which the head of Hamas' rocket division was staying. It was not immediately clear whether Ayman Sayam was hit in the attack, which occurred in the Jabalya refugee camp in the northern Gaza Strip.
"There's nowhere safe in Gaza. Everyone here is terrorized and traumatized," said John Ging, the top UN official in Gaza, blaming the international community for allowing the violence to continue.
"I am appealing to political leaders here and in the region and the world to get their act together and stop this," he said, speaking at Gaza's largest hospital. "They are responsible for these deaths."
The Israel Defense Forces had no comment on the incident, but in the past has accused militants of using schools, mosques and residential neighborhoods to store weapons or launch attacks.
Earlier Tuesday, Palestinian medical officials reported that 10 civilians were killed when a shell fired by an Israeli ship hit their house on the Gaza shore.
Officials in Gaza said at least 20 people were killed in shelling up and down the strip on Tuesday. Only two of the dead could could be immediately confirmed as militants.
United Nations humanitarian chief John Holmes has recently put the Palestinian death toll at 500, with about 125 of them civilians, since Israel launched Operation Cast Lead against Hamas in Gaza.
Gaza health officials, however, have reported that since the offensive began on Dec. 27 more than 550 Palestinians have been killed and 2,500 wounded, including 200 civilians.
Israel's stated goals in the operation are the cessation of Palestinian cross-border rocket fire and the destruction of the Islamist militant group Hamas' infrastructure.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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from the jerusalem post:
Hamas has set up an independent hospital in the Gaza Strip to treat its operatives wounded in fighting with the IDF - and, according to Israeli estimates, it is pilfering a significant portion of the medicine allowed into the Strip, senior defense officials told The Jerusalem Post on Monday.
Despite this estimate, the Defense Ministry said Monday that it would continue facilitating the transfer of food and medical supplies into Gaza. The humanitarian convoys, defense officials said, played a key role in garnering international legitimacy for the IDF's operations in Gaza since it showed the world that Israel distinguished between Hamas terrorists and Palestinian civilians.
On Sunday, Military Intelligence chief Maj.-Gen. Amos Yadlin told the cabinet that Hamas was using mosques, public institutions and private houses as ammunition stores.
On Monday, the Defense Ministry facilitated the transfer of 49 trucks carrying basic foods into the Gaza Strip through the Kerem Shalom crossing. Since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, the IDF has allowed some 450 trucks into the Gaza Strip.
Monday's operation was unique since it was the first time that supplies were allowed in since the IDF began its ground offensive inside Gaza and split the strip in half, cutting off the north from the south.
Bezalel Treiber, head of the Defense Ministry's Crossings Directorate, came to Kerem Shalom on Monday to oversee the operations, which included the opening of a humanitarian corridor from Gaza City to Kerem Shalom - located near the Egyptian border - to enable the trucks to travel from southern Gaza to the north.
"We are coordinating with the IDF and were able to open a road to allow the Palestinian workers at the crossing to get there and then travel with the supplies back to Gaza City," Treiber said.
A bus, he said, picked up some 20 Palestinian workers from Gaza City and transported them to Kerem Shalom, where they operated the forklifts and unloaded the supplies transferred into Gaza. Fifty trucks were then allowed into the crossing and a humanitarian corridor was opened in coordination with commanders inside Gaza to enable the supplies to reach Gaza City, where it is to be distributed to different areas in the Strip.
In addition to the supplies, the Defense Ministry also began laying a pipeline from Kerem Shalom on Monday in order to deliver fuel into the Gaza Strip. Fuel is usually transferred via the Nahal Oz fuel depot, which could not be operated on Monday due to terrorism threats.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Is it possible that the veiled reason for this over-reaching distruction IS the expectation that another country(perhaps Iran?), one with the "potential" for having nuclear weapons, might make some overture of assistance to the Palestinians?
If that occurred - especially with our new "preemptive strike" mindset - it would give the US carte blanche to anhialate that country through it's own nuclear arsenal?
It just seems - strange - to me, that if Israel's real intent in this assault was as they say, that their mossad operatives wouldn't be more than capable of of going after the Hamas leaders one on one, instead of what looks very much like an attempt at irradicating the entire population.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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That's not what the most effective, and bedeviling to the Red Coats, guerillas of the American revolutionary war did Fats. Why don't you suggest all the militants resisting Israel's illegal occupation just shoot themselves and save the Americans some tax dollars. You are a fiscal conservative right? Perfect.
This is about resistance to sixty years of inhumane illegal occupation. This is not about any credible threat to Israel's existence. Nor about any suggested inherent lust for Israeli blood on the part of the besieged Palestinians. This is about ending the ILLEGAL OCCUPATION.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"Are you going to post a report about every civilian killed?"
Are we going to hear a report every time an Iranian farts, Jeff?
What I'm tired of hearing is how many Israelis are being treated for "shock".
What a country of pussies.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Philo writes:
"That's not what the most effective, and bedeviling to the Red Coats, guerillas of the American revolutionary war did Fats"
Ever hear of Valley Forge?
You think General Washington chose to winter his Army there because the weather was nice?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"illegal occupation"?
um, israel pulled out of gaza months ago...just like they pulled out of the west bank...just like they pulled out of lebanon
what have they gotten from their appeasement? more attacks from hamas and hezbollah...simple equation: stop attacking israel and israel will stop retaliating
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Philo actually wrote:
"This is about resistance to sixty years of inhumane illegal occupation"
He is rightly identifying the epicenter of this religious/socio/economic/psychological/cultural/human decency conflict.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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There we go an on cue aside from the cast of dumb and dumber. One with a myth the other with a lie. Neither able to prove a thing. Thank God for Brunosafari!
Israel "pulled out" of Gaza And imposed one on the deadliest blockades in history. Systematically strangling the life out of Gaza while never ceasing provocative raids and targeted assassinations. They nevr "pulled out" of the West Bank. And you need to inform your world view with a study of the siege of Hebron. And as for "pulling out" of Lebanon your great humanitarians left behind a vast killing field of hundreds of thousands of absolutely illegal cluster bomblet land mines. More little kids have been killed and maimed by those delightful gestures of neighborliness than in all the rocket attacks combined.
And Dafty how typically disingenuous of you to insist the Palestinians are the one pursuing genocide.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Fattrad isn't that what the words of the founders of Zionism and Israel clearly stated?
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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'Isn't that what the Hamas charter calls for and the Gazans voted Hamas in. '
Broken record, and full circle once again.
Why did the people of Gaza vote for Hamass in the free and open elections/
Because fatah was/is corrupt beyond all belief and Hammas was dong the humanitarian work fatah should have.
The humanitarian work that needed to be and to this day still needs to be done to help the people of Gaza just survive the strangle hold Israel has on 'the strip'.
So in all reality Israel continues to make the monster it seeks to destroy so the feign of 'we are the persecuted' can continually be used as justification for what ever goal Israel has.
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morphus
Mountain climber
Angleland
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has anyone mentioned Gaza's gas yet?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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To re-quote from earlier in this thread.
Mourid Barghouti, in his 2003 book I Saw Ramallah,
"It is easy to blur the truth with a simple linguistic trick: start
your story from 'Secondly.' Yes, this is what Rabin did. He simply
neglected to speak of what happened first. Start your story with
"Secondly," and the world will be turned upside-down. Start your story
with "Secondly," and the arrows of the Red Indians are the original
criminals and the guns of the white men are entirely the victim. It is
enough to start with "Secondly," for the anger of the black man
against the white to be barbarous. Start with "Secondly," and Gandhi
becomes responsible for the tragedies of the British. You only need to
start your story with "Secondly," and the burned Vietnamese will have
wounded the humanity of the napalm, and Victor Jara's songs will be
the shameful thing and not Pinochet's bullets, which killed so many
thousands in the Santiago stadium. It is enough to start the story
with "Secondly," for my grandmother, Umm 'Ata, to become the criminal
and Ariel Sharon her victim. ...
The houses built on top of ours gallantly declare their willingness to
understand our odd predilection toward living in camps scattered in
the Diaspora of gods and flies, as though we had begged them to throw
us out of our homes and to send their bulldozers to destroy them in
front of our very eyes. Their generous guns in Deir Yassin forgive us
the fact that they piled our bodies high at the sunset hour there one
day. Their fighter jets forgive the graves of our martyrs in Beirut.
Their soldiers forgive the tendency of our teenagers' bones to break.
Israel the victim polishes its hot, red knife with the sheen of
forgiveness."
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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""It is easy to blur the truth with a simple linguistic trick: start
your story from 'Secondly.'"
"The houses built on top of ours"
Philo, what house is the Dome of the Rock build over? What houses were many of the Palestinian houses in East Jeruselem build on top of?
During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the western part of Jerusalem was captured by Israel, while East Jerusalem (including the Old City) was captured by Jordan. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War came to an end with the signing of the 1949 Armistice Agreements.[2]
Upon its capture, the Jordanians immediately expelled all the Jewish residents of the Jewish Quarter. All the main synagogues were destroyed, and the Jewish Quarter was bulldozed. The ancient Jewish cemetery on Mount of Olives was desecrated, and the tombstones there were used for construction and paving roads. Jordan also destroyed the Jewish villages of Atarot and Neve Yaakov just north of Jerusalem (their sites became Jerusalem neighborhoods after 1967).
East Jerusalem absorbed some of the refugees from West Jerusalem's Arab neighborhoods that came under Israeli rule. Thousands of Arabs were settled in the previously Jewish areas of Jerusalem.[2]
The Jewish Quarter (Hebrew: הרובע היהודי, HaRova HaYehudi or the Rova) is one of the four traditional quarters of the Old City of Jerusalem. The 45,000 square meter area lies in the southeastern sector of the walled city, and stretches from the Zion Gate in the south, along the Armenian Quarter on the west, up to the Cardo in the north and extends to the Western Wall and the Temple Mount in the east.
The quarter has had a rich history, with a nearly continual Jewish presence since the eighth century B.C.E. At the turn of the 20th century the Jewish population of the quarter reached 19,000.[1]. At no time was its population purely and homogenously Jewish - such a rule being neither desired by the Jewish inhabitants nor enforced by the Ottoman or British rulers; in fact, there had always been a considerable non-Jewish population living among its Jews.
In 1948 during the Arab-Israeli War, its population of about 2,000 Jews was besieged, and forced to leave en masse. Colonel Abdullah el-Tal, one-time commandant of the Jordanian Arab Legion, in describing the destruction of the Jewish Quarter, wrote in the volume of his Memoirs (Cairo, 1959):
"... The operations of calculated destruction were set in motion.... I knew that the Jewish Quarter was densely populated with Jews who caused their fighters a good deal of interference and difficulty.... I embarked, therefore, on the shelling of the Quarter with mortars, creating harassment and destruction.... Only four days after our entry into Jerusalem the Jewish Quarter had become their graveyard. Death and destruction reigned over it.... As the dawn of Friday, May 28, 1948, was about to break, the Jewish Quarter emerged convulsed in a black cloud - a cloud of death and agony."
—Yosef Tekoah (Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations) quoting Abdullah el-Tal, [2]
The Jordanian commander who led the operation is reported to have told his superiors: "For the first time in 1,000 years not a single Jew remains in the Jewish Quarter. Not a single building remains intact. This makes the Jews' return here impossible."[3]
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Hey there war mongers don't touch that dial. Just pop up some corn and enjoy the heroic show.
Don't forget to floss the veins from your teeth.
Very unsightly when your claiming the moral high ground.
For those of you with still functioning hearts and operational moral compasses,
DON"T WATCH THIS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5wrwZlwAq8&eurl=http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200916123126787790.html&feature=player_embedded
Can't wait to hear the dead of heart say it was all staged.
And how about the terrified and crying little curly haired blonde kid at the end.
OOOOh so scary! Looks like a terrorist. Better kill him now before he remembers what was done to him and his people. He could exterminate all the Jews if you let him.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Is that the best you got left Dafty? Staid, hackneyed rehashes of regurgitated rhetoric.
I keep posting reliable, verifiable news and information and you mouth breathing war mongers reply with what could best be described as sounding like a bubble in the bath tub.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oh God Wormy you post the double speak of a guy named Jonah Goldberg.
What possible motivation could he have to cast Palestinians in the worst light?
What motivation did Albert Einstein have when he cast the light of parallel between Zionist Israel and Nazi Germany.
I don't know but for my money I will take the word of the smart Jew.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Whew what's that smell? There's a Fat man in the bath tub with the spews....
No Dafty one neighbor at a time. Why won't Israel sign a binding agreement stating their acceptance of Palestine to exist? Right back at ya.
Hey jeff what were you doing at the Royal Gorge?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jeff,
Oh cool man. I thought you had meant the Royal Gorge Here in Colo-Rad-Oooooo.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Philo, what a fabulous phrase: "Staid, hackneyed rehashes of regurgitated rhetoric." I disagree with almost everything you've posted - you seem pathologically unable to see two sides - but that phrase is brilliant. Really.
Reminds me of the old Spiro Agnew quote about nattering Nabobs of Negativism.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Keep pounding on them Israel. Push all the way to the Egyptian border.
Hamas could bring it all to an end anytime they want, but they don't want.
By the way Philo, explain and justify Hamas placing its weapons and weapon caches smack dab in the middle of civilian areas where the Israeli Airforce can take them out only by killing or injuring non-combatants. Hamas loves the blood, loves the gore and the dead.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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mtnyoung I can see both sides.
But I only find one defensible.
But I suppose you think Woody can see both sides?
I am not rooting for more killing.
I guess the ones who are must be seeing both sides.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Philo said: "mtnyoung I can see both sides.
But I only find one defensible. "
First, I don't think you're looking at your views honestly. Second, even if you are looking at your views honestly, you can't really see both of the sides here and yet find only one defensible. That's just nonsense.
Still, I only wanted to comment on your use of words, which I very much admired. I'll return to being a lurker; listening and trying to learn.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"Nattering nabobs of negativism" was invented by William Safire, for the little-missed Spiro Agnew. Part of the Nixon-Reagan-Goldwater Republican divide and rule tactics that served them so well until recently.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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You're correct Philo. I'm cheering for Hamas fighters to be piled up like so much stinking rubbish. This thing needs to be finished in a way that Hamas will lose Gaza to the Palestinian Authority. From there, maybe the peace process has some hope; but blood sucking Hamas has to go.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"I can see both sides.
But I only find one defensible."
Nothing about Israel is defensible to Hamas and the Palestinians who democratically elected Hamas, including the existence of the Jewish people in the Middle East.
This leaves the Israelis to do what they believe they must do to defend themselves.
If Hamas did not find it necessary to fire mortars and rockets from crowded school, maybe the Israelis would not find it necessary to fire missiles at the school.
And so the cycle of violence continues. It will continue until people on both sides find at least some positions of the other side defensible.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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And Woody I found your post earlier in this thread about the little boys and girls to be really, really creepy and psychopathic. It is really disgusting and you should delete it.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jerusalem is an interesting subject. of course it is full of half truths and myth.
During the mandate Jews, population wise, had retained their majority in the city proper. As far as ownership of land things were a bit different. Only about 18% of the total was Jewish owned (approximately 5,000 dunums). Of the eastern, subsequently Jordinian side, Jews owned a mere fraction of the land estimated at about .6 per cent.
Between 1948 and 1967 Israelis used their absantee property laws and their Custodian of Absantee Property to take about 20,000 dunums on the western side. Since 1967 they took 15,000 on the eastern side including that tiny .6 percent sliver abandoned in 1948.
Interestingly the Israelis found that .6 not to be expropriated by Jordan and the Jordanian Custodian of Absantee property was able for the most part to return registered Jewish owners their properties from the time of the mandate.
The same could not be said for the Arabs who put in claims for properties they abandoned in 1948. Unlike their Jordanian counterpart the Israeli Custodian Of Absantee Property was to deprive not preserve ownership. And that they did quite well.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"Hamas could bring it all to an end anytime they want, but they don't want.
By the way Philo, explain and justify Hamas placing its weapons and weapon caches smack dab in the middle of civilian areas where the Israeli Airforce can take them out only by killing or injuring non-combatants. Hamas loves the blood, loves the gore and the dead."
Name a place in Gaza that is not a civilian area?
This is what is sooooo f*#ked up.
Anyway, Woody, you'd like the place - very similar to Riverside....
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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"And what you also ignore is the reason Hamas may be fighting. Most of you in their shoes would be every bit as blood thirsty."
No. I would never, NEVER train my children to be terrorist. I would never teach my children to hate others and to have the desire to kill them because of ethnic, religeous, or any other differences.
Look up the children of Hamas
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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This whole thread is really creepy and psychopathic.
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WBraun
climber
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Talk is cheap .....
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"No. I would never, NEVER train my children to be terrorist. I would never teach my children to hate others and to have the desire to kill them because of ethnic, religeous, or any other differences. "
Yeah right.
I'll post the example again....
If someone bashes in your door while you are having a nice evening with your family and....
1. You are bound up.
2. Your wife is raped and killed in front of you.
3. Your son is sodomized with a gun and the trigger is pulled.
4. Your penis is cut off.
The perp leaves.
And amazingly you survive.
What are you going to do?
How are you going to feel?
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Uh, Uncle that has NOTHING to do with teaching my children anything. A piss poor analogy of what is going on in the ME as well. In your scenario I would have my justice and with good cause. One must defend their family. You can do this by retaliating against those who threaten and use terrorism against your family or maybe by not engaging in terroristic activities that would jeprodize the security of your wife and children.
If you truly believe the state of Israel as a whole is an evil entity raping, sodomizing and torturing the palestinians then you are believing in your own twisted fairytale.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Talk about believing twisted fairytales.
Jewish leaders planned the Holocaust to kill "disabled and handicapped" Jews to avoid having to care for them, according to a Hamas TV educational program. As much of the world prepared to commemorate Yom HaShoah, Holocaust Remembrance Day, Hamas TV presented its latest sinister twist on Holocaust denial.
The Hamas TV educational program, broadcast last week, taught that the murder of Jews in the Holocaust was a Zionist plot with two goals:
1- To eliminate "disabled and handicapped" Jews by sending them to death camps, so they would not be a burden on the future state of Israel.
2- At the same time, the Holocaust served to make "the Jews seem persecuted" so they could "benefit from international sympathy."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Folks on this thread, and perhaps a bit new to this issue, should know that Hamas is a very recent phenomena in this history of this issue, having been created with the help of Israel to foil the PLO.
So ideas that's wiping out Hamas will do anything to solve the issues are short-sighted. ALl of Hamas could go away tomorrow, the Israelis would just take three big steps in consolidating illegal settlements into "Facts on the ground" and then work on demonizing the Palestinian Authority or provoking the Palestinian population to strike out by using some quiet targeted assassinations, land seizures, or checkpoint closings.
Because the real name of the game is squeezing as many palestinians into the open air prison of Gaza as possible and making the West Bank a non-viable economic reality so that over time, Palestinians are basically suffocated out of there.
And that's why Hamas keeps launching rockets even though they do little damage. They need to keep the issue public and dramatic because simply letting peace stick doesn't work because the intent of Israel isn't to let life get good for Palestinians. It's to keep it sucking so hard that, family by family, they gradually move somewhere else until finally, Israel will have what they vision.
Wish it wasn't true. They try to hide it. But if you look at what is actually done, that's the plan
No other plan would be accepted by the powerful voting block of settlers, and sadly, they have come to matter deeply
Peace
Kal
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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JBar posted;
"If you truly believe the state of Israel as a whole is an evil entity raping, sodomizing and torturing the palestinians then you are believing in your own twisted fairytale".
No JBar I don't think any of us supporting the Palestinians of Gaza think that.
I believe most of us think the majority of Israelis want a just peace for the palestinians and freedom and security for both Semitic peoples. I believe most of us are saying the same about the Palestinians. Even those of Gaza.
Oddly, you are the people desperately clinging to debunked notions and cheering death.
For the record there has not been one credible shred of evidence that Hamas was operating out of, let alone firing rockets from, the schools that were destroyed by Israel. They were just shelters for displaced families. Mostly dead women and children.
Surgical precision at it's most deliberate.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Meet Assud the rabbit. Is there a creature like this on Israeli TV?
Assud the rabbit is the newest star of "Tomorrow's Pioneers," a Hamas-authorized kids show that airs on Gaza TV and is beamed around the Arab world.
The 6-foot bomber bunny appeared on camera in recent days with a head-scarf-wearing little girl named Saraa.
She sits listening entranced to the rabbit's rants.
"I, Assud, will finish off the Jews and eat them," he hisses.
"Allah willing!" Saraa says.
It's the latest use of cuddly figures by Hamas terrorists "to teach hate and violence," said Itamar Marcus, director of Palestinian Media Watch.
"This program is telling us that they see children as tools in their propaganda and their war," Marcus said. "They have no problem stealing their children's youth."
Before Assud, Hamas' use of a Mickey Mouse character called Farfur to preach hate gained worldwide condemnation.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Allah Akbar.
Jody's evil twin
You sounds lak a turrareeist boy. I ama callin' fatherland seecureiti. Gonna tourn ewe in.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I'm curious, Philo, how do you feel about Assud the rabbit program? It is well documented to be true, among other indoctrination programs.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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"No JBar I don't think any of us supporting the Palestinians of Gaza think that.
I believe most of us think the majority of Israelis want a just peace for the palestinians and freedom and security for both Semitic peoples. I believe most of us are saying the same about the Palestinians. Even those of Gaza."
I don't like quoting others but I'm gonna do it one more time. I like what Philo says here but I would never have guessed it based on his prior posts. Much like politics I'm not on either side but the side of truth and fairness. Most palestinian "supporters" believe everything and anything al jazeera says, get their entire knowledge of the issue from the same media or maybe their college proffesor and don't bother to look into the history of the palestinian people or the state of Isreal and/or have never seen Gaza with their own eyes.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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For those who think "if just the Palestinians would accept peace" is the solution to the problem, check the record of Palestinian terrorism between 1948 and the first suicide bombers and intifada, many decades later.
You'll see that being peaceful (although that's always my policy) didn't keep settlers off their land or otherwise advance their cause
Fatty, you should see and know that what remains of the West Bank is not a viable Palestinian state but is rather like the way they castrate animals: Put a rubber band on the testicles and let time do the rest.
Peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It seems pretty clear that all the players - especially Israel and Hamas - know that things will change after January 20th. They don't know how, but fear their scope of action would be limited, and so are doing their best to set the stage for what follows.
The convenient intransigent foolishness of both parties will allow Obama greater freedom of action to promote a workable solution that is in the interests of the world and the US, if not Israel and the Palestinians. He's probably tempted to wash his hands of a Gordian knot, but can't trust the Israelis not to escalate things out of control - at least for now, the US-Israel relationship is symbiotic, which gives him some leverage. Especially with regard to Iran's apparent nuclear ambitions, and possible Israeli pre-emptive action.
Few if any of the Arab and Muslim nations, and their leaders, would be likely to list Israel and a solution to the Palestine problem amongst their top five or even top ten problems. (Overpopulation, education, human rights, water, resources.... All way more important.) It's a convenient distraction for their people, and a way to unite them, but they know there's little if anything they can actually do about it except stir things up. Which is mostly now the job of Iran.
Any overt action by Iran against Israel would probably cause a crisis that would lead to the fall of the Iranian government, and that the big challenge would be preventing an over-reaction by Israel.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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In the US, Gaza is a different war
By Habib Battah
The mainstream US media has been careful to balance images of Gazan suffering with those of Israelis, leading to accusations it is not reflecting the unequal death toll [EPA]
The images of two women on the front page of an edition of The Washington Post last week illustrates how mainstream US media has been reporting Israel's war on Gaza.
On the left was a Palestinian mother who had lost five children. On the right was a nearly equally sized picture of an Israeli woman who was distressed by the fighting, according to the caption.
As the Palestinian woman cradled the dead body of one child, another infant son, his face blackened and disfigured with bruises, cried beside her.
The Israeli woman did not appear to be wounded in any way but also wept.
Arab frustration
To understand the frustration often felt in the Arab world over US media coverage, one only needs to imagine the same front page had the situation been reversed.
IN DEPTH
Latest news and analysis from Gaza and Israel
Send us your views and videos
Watch our coverage of the war on Gaza If an Israeli woman had lost five daughters in a Palestinian attack, would The Washington Post run an equally sized photograph of a relatively unharmed Palestinian woman, who was merely distraught over Israeli missile fire?
When the front page photographs of the two women were published on December 30, over 350 Palestinians had reportedly been killed compared to just four Israelis.
What if 350 Israelis had been killed and only four Palestinians - would the newspaper have run the stories side by side as if equal in news value?
Like many major news organisations in the US, The Washington Post has chosen to cover the conflict from a perspective that reflects the US government's relationship with Israel. This means prioritising Israel's version of events while underplaying the views of Palestinian groups.
For example, the newspaper's lead article on Tuesday, which was published above the mothers' photographs, quotes Israeli military and civilian sources nine times before quoting a single Palestinian. The first seven paragraphs explain Israel's military strategy. The ninth paragraph describes the anxiety among Israelis, spending evenings in bomb shelters. Ordinary Palestinians, who generally have no access to bomb shelters, do not make an appearance until the 23rd paragraph.
To balance this top story, The Washington Post published another article on the bottom half of the front page about the Palestinian mother and her children. But would the paper have ever considered balancing a story about a massive attack on Israelis with an in-depth lead piece on the strategy of Palestinian militants?
Context stripped
Major US television channels also adopted the equal time approach, despite the reality that Palestinian casualties exceeded Israeli ones by a hundred fold. However, such comparisons were rare because the scripts read by American correspondents often excluded the overall Palestinian death count.
By stripping the context, American viewers may have easily assumed a level playing field, rather than a case of disproportionate force.
Take the opening lines of a report filed by NBC's Martin Fletcher on December 30: "In Gaza two little girls were taking out the rubbish and killed by an Israeli rocket - while in Israel, a woman had been driving home and was killed by a Hamas rocket. No let up today on either side on the fourth day of this battle."
Omitted from the report was the overall Palestinian death toll, dropped continuously in subsequent reports filed by NBC correspondents over the next several days.
When number of deaths did appear - sometimes as a graphic at the bottom of the screen - it was identified as the number of "people killed" rather than being attributed specifically to Palestinians.
No wonder the overwhelmingly asymmetrical bombardment of Gaza has been framed vaguely as "rising tensions in the Middle East" by news anchors.
With the lack of context, the power dynamic on the ground becomes unclear.
ABC news, for example, regularly introduced events in Gaza as "Mideast Violence". And Like NBC, reporters excluded the Palestinian death toll.
On December 31, when Palestinian deaths stood at almost 400, ABC correspondent Simon McGergor-Wood began a video package by describing damage to an Israeli school by Hamas rockets.
The reporter's script can be paraphrased as follows: Israel wanted a sustainable ceasefire; Israel needed to prevent Hamas from rearming; Hamas targets were hit; Israel was sending in aid and letting the injured out; Israel was doing "everything they can to alleviate the humanitarian crisis". And with that McGregor-Wood signed off.
Palestinian perspective missing
There was no parallel telling of the Palestinian perspective, and no mention of any damages to Palestinian lives, although news agencies that day had reported five Palestinians dead.
For the ABC correspondent, it seemed the Palestinian deaths contained less news value than damage to Israeli buildings. His narration of events, meanwhile, amounted to no less than a parroting of the official Israeli line.
In fact, the Israeli government view typically went unchallenged on major US networks.
The US media has been accused of prioritising Israel's version of events [EPA]
Interviews with Israeli spokesmen and ambassadors were not juxtaposed with the voices of Palestinian leaders. Prominent American news anchors frequently adopted the Israeli viewpoint. In talk show discussions, instead of debating events on the ground, the pundits often reinforced each other's views.
Such an episode occurred on a December 30 broadcast of the MSNBC show, Morning Joe, during which host Joe Scarborough repeatedly insisted that Israel should not be judged.
Israel was defending itself just as the US had done throughout history. "How many people did we kill in Germany?" Scarborough posed.
The blame rested on the Palestinians, he concluded, connecting the Gaza attacks to the Camp David negotiations of 2000. "They gave the Palestinians everything they could ask for, and they walked away from the table," he said repeatedly.
Although this view was challenged once by Zbigniew Brzezinski, a former US official, who appeared briefly on the show, subsequent guests agreed incessantly with Scarborough's characterisation of the Palestinians as negligent, if not criminal in nature.
According to guest Dan Bartlett, a former White House counsel, the Palestinian leadership had made it "very clear" that they were uninterested in peace talks.
Another guest, NBC anchor David Gregory, began by noting that Yasser Arafat, the late Palestinian president, "could not be trusted", according to Bill Clinton, the former US president.
Gregory then added that Hamas had "undercut the peace process" and actually welcomed the attacks.
"The reality is that Hamas wanted this, they didn't want the ceasefire," he said.
Columnist Margaret Carlson also joined the show, agreeing in principal that Hamas should be "crushed" but voicing concern over the cost of such action.
Thus the debate was not whether Israel was justified, but rather what Israel should do next. The Palestinian human tragedy received little to no attention.
Victim's perspective
Arab audiences saw a different picture altogether. Rather than mulling Israel's dilemma, the Arab news networks captured the air assault in chilling detail from the perspective of its victims. The divide in coverage was staggering.
For US networks, the bombing of Gaza has largely been limited to two-minute video packages or five minute talk show segments. This has usually meant a few snippets of jumbled video: explosions from a distance and a momentary glance at victims; barely enough time to remember a face, let alone a personality. Victims were rarely interviewed.
The availability of time and space, American broadcast executives might argue, were mitigating factors.
On MSNBC for example, Gaza competed for air time last week with stories about the economy, such as a hike in liquor sales, or celebrity news, such as speculation over the publishing of photographs of Sarah Palin's new grandchild.
Most US networks have reported exclusively from Israel [GALLO/GETTY] On Arab TV, however, Gaza has been the only story.
For hours on end, live images from the streets of Gaza are beamed into Arab households.
Unlike the correspondents from ABC and NBC, who have filed their reports exclusively from Israeli cities, Arab crews are inside Gaza, with many correspondents native Gazans themselves.
The images they capture are often broadcast unedited, and over the last week, a grizzly news gathering routine has been established.
The cycle begins with rooftop-mounted cameras, capturing the air raids live. After moments of quiet, thunderous bombing commences and plumes of smoke rise over the skyline. Then, anguish on the streets. Panicked civilians run for cover as ambulances careen through narrow alleys. Rescue workers hurriedly pick through the rubble, often pulling out mangled bodies. Fathers with tears of rage hold dead children up to the cameras, vowing revenge. The wounded are carried out in stretchers, gushing with blood.
Later, local journalists visit the hospitals and more gruesome images, more dead children are broadcast. Doctors wrap up the tiny bodies and carry them into overflowing morgues. The survivors speak to reporters. Their distraught voices are heard around the region; the outflow of misery and destruction is constant.
Palestinian voices
The coverage extends beyond Gaza. Unlike the US networks, which are often limited to one or two correspondents in Israel, major Arab television channels maintain correspondents and bureaus throughout the region. As angry protests take place on a near daily basis, the crews are there to capture the action live.
Even in Israel, Arab reporters are employed, and Israeli politicians are regularly interviewed. But so are members of Hamas and the other Palestinian factions.
The inclusion of Palestinian voices is not unique to Arab media. On a number of international broadcasters, including BBC World and CNN International, Palestinian leaders and Gazans in particular are regularly heard. And the Palestinian death toll has been provided every day, in most broadcasts and by most correspondents on the ground. Reports are also filed from Arab capitals.
On some level, the relatively small American broadcasting output can be attributed to a general trend in downsizing foreign reporting. But had a bloodbath on this scale happened in Israel, would the networks not have sent in reinforcements?
For now, the Israeli viewpoint seems slated to continue to dominate Gaza coverage. The latest narrative comes from the White House, which has called for a "durable" ceasefire, preventing Hamas terrorists from launching more rockets.
Naturally the soundbites are parroted by US broadcasters throughout the day and then reinforced by pundits, fearing the dangerous Hamas.
Arab channels, however, see a different outcome. Many have begun referring to Hamas, once controversial, as simply "the Palestinian resistance".
While American analysts map out Israel's strategy, Arab broadcasters are drawing their own maps, plotting the expanding range of Hamas rockets, and predicting a strengthened hand for opposition to Israel, rather than a weakened one.
Habib Battah is a freelance journalist and media analyst based in Beirut and New York.
The views expressed by the author are not necessarily those of Al Jazeera.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"I'm curious, Philo, how do you feel about Assud the rabbit program?"
Well, how about it Philo?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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I heard he is practicing some new cajun style recipes.
I present you information about children's deaths and you give me a children's show.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Philo has said more then once that he doesn't support the whack job hatred and the rocket attacks, so why would you expect that he would dig this rabbit?
Mercy people. Please try to understand. This isn't a black and white situation where one side is ALWAYS GOOD and the other side is ALWAYS BAD.
Some Hamas actions are bad. The Palestinians had a more passive government. Israel treated them like sh#t, taking more land, putting in more sanctions, starving them, beating them, ect.. . So they voted in a more radical government.
At no time in the last 20 plus years has Israel treated these people well. So they fight back with the only weapons that they have. Is it wise? No.. Is it good? no..
but neither is Israel's actions toward these people.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"I present you information about children's deaths and you give me a children's show."
Philo, you are really blind if you don't see the link between the two. The children are dying in a war with Hamas. That children's show is produced by Hamas indoctrinates children to hate Jews, to believe in the extermination of Jews, and to become suicide bombers. Hamas is waging jihad against Jews and using those children as human shields.
This does not release the Israeli army from all moral responsibility. But the blood of those children is also on the hands of Hamas and those who support them.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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For cryin out loud! Sharon tried to give them a palestinian state. Everything is always twisted when viewed from outside the window. One can only praise the wonderful and honest media reports coming out of Gaza and extol the fairness of the Hamas controlled media. Right?? People in this country have had freedom for so long they take it and everything they read/see for granted. Israel doesn't want to opress the p's they need them. They were forced to build the wall to stem the tide of intifada bombings and it worked. It even had Israeli detractors. Many Israelis deplore the violence on both sides. Hamas didn't gain power because the jews were treating the p's like sh#t. They did so because Fatah was severly corrupt. They did so because their incompetent leadership caused a depression. What they need is a true representative gov that has the welfare of the people at heart. Ain't gonna happen with Hamas, probably not with Fatah either.
Here is a link to the basics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Palestinian_territories
Edit: "On 1 December 2004, Sharon dismissed five ministers from the Shinui party for voting against the government's 2005 budget. In January 2005 Sharon formed a national unity government that included representatives of Likud, Labor, and Meimad and Degel HaTorah as "out-of-government" supporters without any seats in the government (United Torah Judaism parties usually reject having ministerial offices as a policy). Between 16 and 30 August 2005, Sharon controversially expelled 9,480 Jewish settlers from 21 settlements in Gaza and four settlements in the northern West Bank. Once it became clear that the evictions were definitely going ahead a group of conservative Rabbis, led by Rabbi Yosef Dayan, placed an ancient curse on him known as the Pulsa diNura, calling on the Angel of Death to intervene and kill him. After Israeli soldiers bulldozed every settlement structure except for several former synagogues, Israeli soldiers formally left Gaza on 11 September 2005 and closed the border fence at Kissufim. While his decision to withdraw from Gaza sparked bitter protests from members of the Likud party and the settler movement, opinion polls showed that it was a popular move among most of the Israeli electorat"
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Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
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My views haven't drastically changed since this thread started, but they have definitely evolved to consider complexities in the matter that I had not so thoroughly contemplated before.
I have appreciated reading the insights and factual material from Ahad, Karl, GC, Philo, Bluering, JBar, Fatty, Mighty, Uncle Doug, Woody, and others. Thanks guys.
Now, I will do my best to never post to this thread again. Its title, and all the other offensive posts put up by that idiot Scabang do a serious injustice to an otherwise intelligent conversation.
*I know this post bumps it to the top, but it was already 3rd from the top 5 minutes ago..so I figure at 2am it won't make much difference.
I hope we can bury this one, and if there is further discussion that it appears on another thread with a more respectable title and some self-restraint from the more vitriolic posters. Peace.. Bertrand
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/01/06/2009-01-06_from_her_lips_to_gods_ear_the_fury_of_a_.html
so, is this palestinian mother a nazi because she calls for the extermination of HAMAS?
what do you think the chances are that this woman, who expressed her disdain for hamas in front of the media, will just coincidentally become a victim of the israeli attacks?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477244,00.html
now, during israel's self-imposed 3-hour cease-fires to allow humanitiarian aid to reach palestinian civilians, do you think hamas will take advantage of the time to divert their manpower to assist in the distribution of the humanitarian supplies or care for the wounded or simply move their weapons away from mosques, schools, hospitals, civilian homes to minimize further civilian casualties? no? i don't think so, either...in fact, i think hamas will continue to launch rockets into israel and will commandeer "humanitarian" supplies for their own use and will look for maximum exposure (for civilian casualties and media attention) targets from which to launch more attacks...just a hunch
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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" do you think hamas will take advantage of the time to divert their manpower to assist in the distribution of the humanitarian supplies or care for the wounded or simply move their weapons away from mosques, schools, hospitals, civilian homes to minimize further civilian casualties? no? i don't think so, either...in fact, i think hamas will continue to launch rockets into israel and will commandeer "humanitarian" supplies for their own use and will look for maximum exposure (for civilian casualties and media attention) targets from which to launch more attacks...just a hunch."
Yes, but don't think that the Israeli's armed forces won't be using the time to rest up, refuel and reload. The militaries on both sides are going to take as much advantage of that time as they can. The biggest advantage will be to Hamas though because they are the ones who are cornered and need a "time out" the most.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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These Israeli/Palestinian conflicts always end in an impasse.
The Israeli's could wipe out Hamas, but they won't because they will buckle under internal and international pressure before that happens.
Hamas would wipe out the Israelis if they could, but they don't have the capability. So they terrorize the Israelis as much as they can while hiding behind the innocents, making it impossible for Israel to wipe them out without killing a lot of innocents. This creates pressure both at home and internationally for them to stop.
So 1,000 people will be dead without anything to show for it. Maybe some Hamas and Israeli politicians will benefit?
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2009 - 11:26am PT
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Bertrand - the fact that the title ISRAELI NAZIS made you and other Zionist apologists on this site wince every time you saw it gives me great satisfaction. Now you can return your attention to your GQ magazine and your soy latte (extra hot, of course) until the next genocide.
Shalom.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Clearly the IDF will shoot first and tell answers later. Clearly they will fire on anything else that is or might be firing. Helps to explain why more IDF casualties are caused by "friendly" fire rather than by insurgent fire.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"Hamas representative Fathi Hamad stated it explicitly: "For the Palestinian people death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the jihad fighters excel, and the children excel. Accordingly [Palestinians] created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: We desire death as you desire life."
It's impossible for Israel to hit back at Hamas without harming and killing innocent civilians. As Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu has pointed out, by aiming at Israeli civilians and using Palestinian civilians as human shields, Hamas is committing a double war crime.
But you will wait in vain for an international outcry."
i guess the real irony here is that the ones actually seeking, promoting, attempting genocide is, by their own admission, seeking, promoting, attempting the genocide of their own people
damn jews, how dare they pull out of gaza as strongly urged by the whole world as a way to achieve peace only to receive in return constant rocekt attacks...how dare they respond to thousands of rockets fired at their civilians with superior firepower...how dare they try to protect their people...how dare they try to destroy the terrorist organization that proudly accepts responsibility for the rocket attacks and also for the deaths of their own women, children, and elderly
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Again Bookwork, a very one sided view. Perhaps it would be fine for Israel to do all those things if they didn't continue to break international laws and agreements (even their ones with the United States) by expanding illegal settlements, and grabbing land.
(not to mention other provocations)
Behind the scenes, they aren't the peace-loving innocent victim you portray, and the land that Hamas is shooting rockets at isn't even acknowledged to be a legit part of Israel by the International Community (UN still recognized the 67 borders as legit Israel)
67 isn't so long ago. If the Arabs had invaded the US in 67 and took your place, would you be a terrorist for striking at that same land later?
Not saying the rocket attacks are right, but if I'm standing on your fingers, how righteous is it of me to point at your frenzied response and violent temper?
Peace
Karl
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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the israelis pulled out of gaza three years ago
the '67 borders do not include land that israel captured in a defensive war...according to the un and the geneva convention, land captured in a defensive war can be retained as long as a threat exists
perhaps you'd like to convince me that israel faces no threats from other states in the area... or convince me that if israel pulled back to the '67 borders all threats to israel's existence would end
remember only ONE side of this conflict has always, continues, and will always call for the complete destruction of the other side...again, i'll give you three guesses, karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Skip, I'm condemning the acts on both sides.
Who's right, the Hatfields or the McCoys? Depends on whether you ask 2 billion of Hatfield's relatives or 1 billion of McCoy's relatives.
and Hatfield owns the world's press so that comes into play.
Fact is, the people on this board are no better than Israelis or Palestinians. If you were born on one side, you'd see it their way, if born on the other, see it the other way. The challenge is to see it both ways and I see little of that, either here nor there.
Ironically, there's a lot more soul searching about how Israel proceeds in Israel than here.
"the '67 borders do not include land that israel captured in a defensive war...according to the un and the geneva convention, land captured in a defensive war can be retained as long as a threat exists
perhaps you'd like to convince me that israel faces no threats from other states in the area... or convince me that if israel pulled back to the '67 borders all threats to israel's existence would end "
First, Israel wasn't attacked in 67 first of all. It was a preemptive war just like our war on Iraq was justified.
Second, the UN ruled on what Israel should do after that war, it was Resolution 242 which Israel violated.
Third. Israel is the only country in the hood with Nukes, I don't think the other states are a threat regardless of borders. Hypocritically, we in the west don't have a problem with an unstable small country getting nukes in a trouble spot as long as, like Saddam BITD, it's our ally.
Forth, Elements on BOTH sides have continually called to push the other out. Elements on BOTH sides have called for peace.
And both sides have engaged in actions to do exactly that, push the other out. Israel has done so most sucessfully and has the power so they have more responsibility.
Peace
Karl
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Skip you are back!
Eat my sh#t you poor excuse for a carbon unit.
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WBraun
climber
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It's Skipt not Skip
At least get your names right while you're losing it, hahaha
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Very little perspective.
ooooh.. blame the folks in the school, who probably didn't know that someone fired a mortar from the school.
Mercy..
Yes kids should be able to go to school without being attacked. They should also be able to come home from school and have a home, not one bulldozed by the Israelis. They should also be able to sit in school and not be shot by an Israeli sniper. They should be able to come home and have running water and food to eat.
There is your perspective.
Like Karl said. Both sides have a perspective.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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More good news.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090107/ap_on_re_us/joe_the_plumber
TOLEDO, Ohio – Joe The Plumber is putting down his wrenches and picking up a reporter's notebook.
The Ohio man who became a household name during the presidential campaign says he is heading to Israel as a war correspondent for the conservative Web site pjtv.com.
Samuel J. Wurzelbacher (WUR'-zuhl-bah-kur) says he'll spend 10 days covering the fighting.
He tells WNWO-TV in Toledo that he wants to let Israel's "'Average Joes' share their story."
Wurzelbacher gained attention during the final weeks of the campaign when he asked Barack Obama about his tax plan.
He later joined Republican John McCain on the campaign trail. At one stop, he agreed with a McCain supporter who asked if he believed a vote for Obama was a vote for the death of Israel.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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I can't lurk anymore when Karl Baba makes a comment like:
"First, Israel wasn't attacked in 67 first of all. It was a preemptive war just like our war on Iraq was justified"
How can you post something that is just clearly, factually wrong? Of the three Arab nations Israel went to war with in June of 1967, Jordan is easy: it attacked across well defined, recognized borders on Monday, June 5th (this was after Israeli troops attacked into Sinai). Jordan attacked Israel first. Then there is Syria, which started the whole move toward war in May 1967. They were bombarding Israel with artillery long before June 5. Unless you subscribe to the theory that firing artillery at a country is an act of war UNLESS the target is Israel, Syria attacked Israel first in 1967.
So, what about Egypt? Israel rolled into Sinai on June 5, attacking Egyptian troops that were there (EDIT: and of course the Israeli air force simultaneously destroyed the Egyptian Air Force). Is this what you mean by "preemptive war?" If so, explain what reaction Israel was supposed to make given that Egypt had summarily dismissed the UN peacekeepers from Sinai and moved 6 divisions of troops to the Israeli border, all while telling the world they were going to attack Israel. Threats only? Maybe, but repeated MiG overflights of Israel prior to June 5 were acts of war. Oh, and the prior closing of the straights of Tihran by Egypt to "jewish" traffic, was also an internationally recognized act of war.
Comparing this to the United States' bullsh#t, completely stupid and optional war in Iraq is nuts.
Karl, I understand that your main point isn't about who "started" the Six Day war, but facts matter, and you seem way too smart to make such plain errors. Unless we apply those special rules of international law that exclude non-catastrophic attacks on Israel from being acts of war, all three "main" Arab combatants committed acts of war against Israel first in 1967.
Sorry, but I had to call you on that one. (Gone now until tonight).
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"That is the line Uncle Doug normally uses to pick up women in bars.
"
At least I'm picking up girls SkpiTTTT.
So Skipt, where is all this dirt you have on me?
Remember how you wanted to "boogie" with me?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Karl: "the land that Hamas is shooting rockets at isn't even acknowledged to be a legit part of Israel by the International Community (UN still recognized the 67 borders as legit Israel)"
Karl, this is incorrect. ALL of the land Hamas is shooting rockets at is within the pre-1967 borders. Look at a map of the 67 borders and the current borders. Israel withdrew from Gaza to the 67 borders. The only difference is that in 67 Gaza was under Egyption rule and now its under Hamas rule.
Israel has not withdrawn from all of the West Bank, but Hamas isn't shooting rockets at the West Bank.
"Perhaps it would be fine for Israel to do all those things if they didn't continue to break international laws and agreements (even their ones with the United States) by expanding illegal settlements, and grabbing land.
(not to mention other provocations)"
The settlements have been decreased in the West Bank. And ALL of the settlements in Gaza were removed.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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i'm going to go out on a limb here and declare that any society that dresses its children as suicide bombers is an immoral society...any society that celebrates murder is an immoral society...any society that promotes death for its children is an immoral society
i'm not saying all palestinians are immoral because i believe that most palestinians do NOT want their children to become suicide bombers, do not want anyone murdered (not even jews), and do not prefer death over life for their children...however, their society (at least in gaza...we'll see if fatah can recreate the west bank) has been corrupted by evil
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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First, I'd like to celebrate mtnyoung and Graniteclimber for actually having to resort to research and posting it. I did blow a few things off the top of my head to test ya'll but, in fact, the timings and who dun what of the 6 day war are in dispute (like the rest of the "facts" of this conflict.
I'd like to leave all if this with just one serious thought
That is ultimately meaningful to each and every person reading this
Not just theoretically
But as a reflections of our lives and souls.
Ask yourself. If I was born and raised Israeli, how would I likely see things?
Ask yourself. If I was born and raised Palestinian, how would I likely see things?
Ask yourself. If I was born and raised German during Hitler, what would I have thought and done?
The answer is simple. To the extent that you don't see plain wrongs that the side you are on now has done throughout time, to that extent you'd would be a likely Nazi, Muslim extremist, or Illegal Settler.
Because each side is human and we've all reflected our weakness in our history
Peace through opening your eyes to every side with courage
Karl
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Praises to Karl for bringing up the pertinence of Twain's Hatfields and McCoys! Aside from border sequence issues (which always revert to the illegal occupation of the Zionists at the generous invitation of Britain and the U.S.), Karl has repeatedly labored to describe truths of human nature which are ignored at great peril.
The genius Mark Twain makes me proud to be an American, and more importantly, should make us aware of universal human nature, especially our tendencies toward evil racism and lust for revenge.
"He was uncommon bright the Duke was, and he soon struck it. He dressed Jim up in KIng Lear's outfit- It was a long curtain-calico gown, a;nd a white horse-hair wig and whiskers; and then he took his theater-paint and painted Jim's face and hands and ears and neck all over a dead dull solid blue, like a man that's been drowned nine days. Blamed if he warn't the horriblest looking outrage I ever see. Then the duke took and wrote a sign on a shingle so-
'sick Arab-but harmless when not out of his head.'"
(The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Chapt. 14)
When I view intractable conflicts I often ask myself, Can anybody here be identified as the sweet Nigger Jim (sub-human), the Duke or the Earl (cons), or perhaps, Pap (lawless abuser)?
Or, referring to another title, in this mideast conflict, who is the Prince and who is the Pauper?
As you can expect from me, I'll quote Jesus Messiah: Are we able to treat others "as we wish to be treated ourselves?" Are we noble enough to see the massive complexities of the human soul and place ourselves humbly in the shoes of another?
Selectively and catagorically judging an entire people, is the apex of self- righteousness. We should resist such confident assertions and condemn blatant cruelty. Put more personally, how many of the hawks here have bothered to express any compassion for Philo's wife and relatives?
Bruce
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Skip wrote
"I'm pretty sure we beat the Germans in WW2 but I'll research it and get back to you.
In the mean time ponder this: the Germans even after getting beat are now our allies and do not want to go back to the NAZI days.
Skip"
Read my post again bro. By missing the point entirely, you would for sure be a Nazi if raised German in the 1930s. tell me I'm wrong and you'd see the evil]
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Ask yourself. If I was born and raised Israeli, how would I likely see things?
Ask yourself. If I was born and raised Palestinian, how would I likely see things?
Ask yourself. If I was born and raised German during Hitler, what would I have thought and done?
This is where human instinct and a true religious understanding come into play. In each case you would know that harming another is wrong, but if they're coming to harm you or your family, you would fight.
I know you'll twist this thought into justifying the intifada, but the Israeli's didn't start it, they just want a peaceful homeland. Israelis have proven that they love peaceful Pals and love them, it's their faith.
What does the Hamas version of Islam preach? Kill jew occupiers who no longer occupy Gaza...in other words, kill jews.
even in other countries not involved...just kill jews, man!!!
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2103995.ece#OTC-RSS&ATTR=News
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95HN1H02&show_article=1
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i_THH84S9bUIhGGUr1Hqcm5ssBVAD95IF2QO0
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1177591142655
it's pretty clear.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Skippy has it. National Socialism came about to cure a depressed economy, depressed culture, and a faith in the 'chosen leader'.
sound familiar?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Naturally. If the Israelis attack them in highly congested areas, Hamas will be able to drag out lots of dead civilians for the media to photograph.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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You guys aren't getting it. You can talk all smug about intellectualizing it because you are afraid to admit the chilling truth.
If you were born and raised in Gaza, or had been dislocated by the Israelis there, you'd be conditioned by your culture and experience to buy the party line and go along with the program.
In Germany, you be one of the Nazis.
How do I know?
.. because of the one-sided uncritical views you've maintained in our political discussions. You've bought a huge pecentage of the US party line, but, like every society in the planet's history, we a bunch of selfish unrighteous misbehaving fools like the offenders listed above. They just got dealt different cards.
I imagine that if, after 9-11, Bush gave a speech that declared war in Islam, with some patriotic language and fear in the air, and nuked a half dozen islamic countries causing way more deaths than Hitler dreamed of, you'd have supported that decision with enthusiasm. You're lucky there is no Hitler to follow here.
It feels good to be in the superior race, too bad there isn't one to sign up with.
It comes from being a true human within
Peace
Karl
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Karl, you're making a great point trooper! The only solution is for one
side to be wiped out...to the last man. We'll be back here
year after year if not.
Anyone have the courage/evil to do it? No! So live with it!
Who do you want to be in the Superbowl...?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"It was lost amid the news of Israel's counterattack on Hamas in the last few days, but Hamas' leadership passed several new laws for Gaza in December. They've adopted the Shariah criminal code, which legalizes a number of medieval punishments including cutting off of hands, stoning, lashing and crucifixion. Possession of wine will now get you 40 lashes in Gaza City. Thus does Hamas express its solidarity with its patron and inspiration, the Islamic Republic of Iran."
both the palestinians and the israelis will be better off if hamas can be eliminated
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/08/to-what-end/
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) -- The United Nations says it is halting all aid deliveries to the besieged Gaza Strip. It is citing a series of Israeli attacks on U.N. staff and installations.
The announcement came shortly after the driver of a U.N. truck was killed by tank fire as he was headed to an Israeli border crossing to pick up an aid shipment.
The U.N. said the delivery had been coordinated with Israel. The Israeli army has not commented.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"If you were born and raised in Gaza, or had been dislocated by the Israelis there, you'd be conditioned by your culture and experience to buy the party line and go along with the program.
In Germany, you be one of the Nazis."
And we all know what happened to the Nazis:
Karl, the Germans who were "born into" Nazism where small children at the time of WWII. All of the adult Nazis made a decision to join the party because they liked Hitler's ideas or in order to get things from the party.
Either way, if you were a Jew or gypsy or one of the many other groups being exterminated in a concentration camp, you didn't care whether Hitler was "born into" his beliefs or not. You just wanted him stopped.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Corniss writes
"Karl, you're making a great point trooper! The only solution is for one
side to be wiped out...to the last man. We'll be back here
year after year if not. "
I'm sure you're not calling for Israel to be wiped out, and I don't think 1 billion Muslims would just roll over if the Palestinians were wiped out.
I guess in either case we might eventually unwind to a huge nuclear exchange where much of life on earth would end. That might be the solution you seek.
I'm glad we're trying other stuff first, however insincere, and glad you're not president!
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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GC writes
"Karl, the Germans who were "born into" Nazism where small children at the time of WWII. All of the adult Nazis made a decision to join the party because they liked Hitler's ideas or in order to get things from the party. "
Nonsense! Germans, of course, weren't born into Nazism anymore than we were born into "George Bushism" or "New World OrderIsm" But they were born to be a part of their culture and follow their country. The wrong leader came along and they went right along, not because they liked Hitler's ideas, but because people are sheep that move in flocks and react to fear and manipulation.
Again, conservative bros, how many of you, right after 9-11, would have stood by Bush if he just friggin Nuked 3-4 Arab countries? Can you really say you would have gone against the grain and the fervor the country was feeling and took action? or loudly protested?
That's how Hitler got folks on the program and once you're on the program, you go further down the rabbit hole.
You're not fooling anybody. MANY MANY Germans supported Hilter, and they weren't bad people either, just folks like you who supported their country and leader after some hard times.
How much more likely that if you were a Palestinian suffering Israeli humiliations that you would hate em?
And it goes both ways, many Israelis, of course, demonize the Palestinians. Golda Maier used to pretend they didn't even exist.
That's the way we're wired. We are loyal to our team and don't see our shortcomings. True here and now and true then.
The only ones capable of not going Nazi within the German Culture were the ones persecuted by them, or those who could put a critical eye into the actions and ideas of every side. They had conspiracy theories that perhaps a commie terrorist didn't burn the parliament building, and perhaps the Jews weren't being taken away to work camps.
So if you think America is the pure light that works selflessly for the benefit of mankind as a whole, you'd be islamic militant, a nazi, or a tool of whatever culture raised you. Don't be ashamed, you're in the majority.
But it should give you pause in your smug condemnation of whole cultures.
Just try, without weasling out, to imagine a scenario where invaders or immigrants became super powerful in this country and your family had to move to the nevada desert where they had to carry id cards, wait hours at checkpoints, and be treated like criminals. You were disarmed and efficiently separated from all the military resources that we have now. (they got em somehow) You can't travel to see your other family in the Utah Desert, and those guys shot your nephew while he picked fruit from your orchard.
Just how placid and compliant would you be?
Tell me
Don't put a bunch of "wait' or "what ifs,' let's say it happened. How would your patriotism and honor adjust to this new reality?
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Again, conservative bros, how many of you, right after 9-11, would have stood by Bush if he just friggin Nuked 3-4 Arab countries?
I wouldn't have supported that.
Can you really say you would have gone against the grain and the fervor the country was feeling and took action? or loudly protested?
Took action? Like what? I would have loudly voiced dissent.
Also, you seem to be comparing Bush to Hitler and the Nasties. Isn't that a bit unrealistic?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Karl your thoughts are well thought out and presented. I feel it a shame to mention that among these die hard flag waving ditto heads it is a moot point. The same essential question has been asked many times by many of us. The cannot or will not answer. For to do so would reveal the naked truth of the moral quagmire that would put them in.
They will respond with the tired; "well if my house was having thousands of rockets raining down..." Or better yet with a thoughtless cheer of; "go Israel".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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At least the former Israeli Prime Minister "gets' the question
""I would have joined a terrorist organization."
 Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian."
from
http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm
A short page worth reading if you think the Israelis are so innocent. At least Fatty is semi-honest enough to put more of the cards on the table, which could be summed up as "We've got the power, we want the land, the other guys lost so they better settle for what they can get before it gets less and less"
peace
Karl
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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What if, in the US, our government chose to take down the Mafia crime families by cordoning off the cities they were known to live in?
Of course, you can't let anyone who's in there out, once the decision is made to fence them in. Because the bad guys will walk out with the innocents. You can't even let the innocents evacuate beforehand based on this premise.
What of the wives and children of these mafia gangsters? They made their beds; let them lie in them. Too bad about the kids, though, but what are you going to do....
What about the people who just happen to live nearby, who had no idea? What about the business workers who delivered milk, newspapers, did lawn care, babysat... It "could" be assumed these people are just masqerading as business workers, when really they're criminals....
Now - what are ya gonna do, once you got them trapped? Can't let them out - oh hell no!
So - the government sends in commandos to bomb the hell out of the place. Kill them all. That IS the mission. They PUT their families and neighbors in harm's way and it's sad, but that's just the way it goes.
Anyone here got family or friends who live in a city where the mafia operates? They've been corralled and trapped for 18 months, and now the siege has begun. How do you feel about them being eliminated because of their bad luck in living where they do? Is it acceptable to you?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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So Nazism happened (and all the other 'isms happened) because certain people were born into a certain culture at a certain time?
While there is some truth to this, this is very simplistic and reductionistic.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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I read a story once (might have been propaganda for all I know,) but it was about Germans in Dresden who opposed Hitler and survived the firestorm, and who claimed that while it was happening they saw it as something that was ultimately horrible, but necessary. I wonder if any Palestinians are feeling that way now, or will claim to have felt that way. Duck and cover and hope that when it's over, things can get to some kind of non-hellish norm.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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It is perfectly negotiable Skip. Many of us have discussed the rocket attacks. None of us have condoned them. But I might start rooting for them if you all keep insisting on claiming the moral highground of "surgical" strikes and human shield caused "collateral" damage. And demanding a unilateral right to defend.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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philo, here's my issue with your position...you claim to abhor violence yet you were silent while hamas launched thousands of rockets into israel...you voiced your disdain for violence only after israel responded to these attacks and your disdain seems directed exclusively at israel with only token reference to hamas...i don't think i'm misreading so one could infer that you believe thousands of rocket attacks against israel are acceptable perhaps because there were few casualties and your anger now is not so much at the israelis but at the number of casualties...but this makes no sense; how should israel respond to thousands of rocket attacks? with an equal number of similarly unguided rockets into gaza? would the complaint not then be that israel should use its superior technology to avoid random casualties?
if israels stops defending itself, do you think hamas will stop attacking? i know, you probably want to spew about borders and "occupation"...well, get over it...you know, for a long time israelis were adamantly against a two-state solution, but they finally were persuaded that peace would come only if the palestinians were given their own land...well? that didn't work out so well, did it?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Bookworm that is a broad and uninformed statement to make about me. I have been posting for years. Have you read everything I have posted?
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Skip you illustrate the side of the argument you are on to a "T".
Fist you state this:
"And demanding a unilateral right to defend.
Perfectly said from your position.
But let me ask you this:
And who would you give this right to instead?
Do you give this right away for you and your children?
Why the hell would anyone else? "
Then you say:
"Fattrad is right on......Save lives.....Give up. "
So according to your logic only Palestinians should not be allowed to fight for what they believe in.
Complete and utter 100% double standard.
What every one of your arguments have been, total double standard.
And if you expect anyone to play to that tune, you are in for one hell of a crappy life!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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After WWII, it was determined that destroying cities like Dresden was not necessary. Targeting civilians, like those in Dresden, is the very definition of a war crime. The only reason why the bombing of Dresden was not prosecuted as a war crime is because the Allies won the war and did not want to prosecute their own people.
If the Israelis did to Gaza what the Allies did to Dresden, that would be a war crime.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Those would be:
The Religion of Peace Speaks
Children of Hamas
Palestinian Children's TV
Martyred Mouse and Killer Bee Replaced
You don't see Israeli children's programming of this kind. Those kids are already tragic long before they get killed. The best analogy is skinhead kiddies, oddly enough. And guess who they both hate. The irony is solid enough to set a cam in.
But anyone who keeps going around justifying their actions based on a covenant with a war-god is bound to run into trouble over and over again.
Five minutes in a time-machine, I'd go back and give Abraham a dose of antipsychotics. Nip it all in the bud.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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[url="http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0109/p25s14-wome.html"]United Nations halts relief work in Gaza[/url] -- The Christian Science Monitor
The U.N. and Red Cross criticized Israel for imperiling relief workers and restricting the delivery of aid throughout the Gaza Strip.
[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010804118.html"]100 Survivors Rescued in Gaza From Ruins Blocked by Israelis[/url] -- The Washington Post
Relief Agencies Fear More Are Trapped, Days After Neighborhood Was Shelled
[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-israel-medics"]Israel accused of delaying medical access to injured[/url] -- The Guardian
Red Cross workers discover frightened children next to bodies of their mothers days after tanks shell district of Gaza City
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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thanks kline for showing us what happens when a society commits itself to the destruction of another...when a society openly and repeatedly calls for the extermination of a whole race of people--not just in israel but around the world (i think that's called genocide)...when a society indoctrinates its children in hatred...when a society "desires death as [others] desire life"...when a society celebrates murder as martyrdom
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WBraun
climber
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Blah blah blah blah.
That's all ya do about this topic.
Just puppets repeating what the various news sources are giving.
Go over there and live for 1 year with all the sides.
And then tell us the real truth.
Go on ... right NOW! Get your ass over there. GIT.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Werner, my wife was just recently there for a month. And I can tell you that if not for three kids in school we would already be over there. An excuse? Perhaps but I respect you enough to see the sincerity in most of my postings.
For me the reasons a thread like this is valuable are manifold. With out exchanges like these what would counter the endless propaganda barrage of a one sided narrative.
Who will speak for the beleaguered peoples if not some of us? Some ST posters come off sounding little different than those who accuse rape victims for wearing provocative clothing. Branding them responsible while charging them for the rape exam kit. The Gazans live in a prison none of US would find acceptable. Yet we insistently want to hold the prisoners solely responsible for the safety of the guards.
What else would you have me do? If we donate to a Palestinian charitable cause that is latter deemed connected, no matter how loosely, to a proclaimed terrorist organization we become vulnerable under several Dept. of Homeland (in)Security provisions.
Again what else would you have us do?
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Jefe'
Boulder climber
Bishop
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Nuke'em all.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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philo,
the palestinians said there would be no peace until israel got out of gaze...well, israel got out of gaza, forcibly removing its own citizens...and what was the result? hamas had free reign to arm itself and start launching thousands of rockets into israel
the people of gaza were also the recepients of millions in foreign aid (most from the us)...what did they do with the money? they bought rockets
you call the israelis prison guards...but the egyptians are just as adamant about protecting their border from the palestinians
hamas can end this conflict right now by stopping their attacks and acknowledging israel's right to exist...if hamas does those two very simple things and then israel attacks, then i'd be on your side
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Because it just isn't that simple Book. Human nature and history gets in the way. It gets in the way in just a few days even here on an internet forum. Werner is right. But there is an intermediate step possible:
Thousands of Middle Eastern Students currently are studying in U.S. Universities, paying out-of-counry tuition rates which are attractive for the schools. For many years now, these students experience profound lonliness and alienation, and usually, harsh instances of cruelty and indifference. (edit:many return to postions of great influence.) I would like to challenge you to meet some of these people, to have them in your home, to visit them at worship and have them visit your church if you have one. Take them to to the park and the museum and show them your library and ask your wife to make cookies for them. Study the Koran and introduce their children to baseball or climbing. Prove that you are nothing (emphatic edit: "anything") but a bigot, as I sincerely hope.
My daughter recently returned from an incredible, unique visit to Kuwait through a friend she made here in the U.S.. (edit)
I should caution you that these educated Muslims are far more articulate and reasonable than you probably imagine. Don't mistake my words I am not a Muslim, formally speaking, though I am a Christian. And believe that such an action is in line with "surrendering to the will of God."
If Americans had been careful to do this for even the past twenty years, we would be living in a different world, a world where communication and an effective level of trust is possible.
If this is daunting to you, I can hook you up with people that will assist.
Bruce
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"Prove that you are nothing but a bigot, as I sincerely hope."
i don't understand...
bruno, in what way did i make this a muslim issue? i didn't! if my solution is too simple, then why do you and the un keep calling for israel to cease-fire? why do you and so many others blame only israel? you act as if israel could solve this problem simply by not retaliating to attacks
and i believe it is that simple: if the grand mullahs (or whatever their title is) declare that israel has a right to exist and that calling for the extermination of an entire race is NOT the desire of allah, then the world will be a much better place
as a matter of fact, i'm a teacher in the public schools...i have muslim students in all of my classes...yeah, they're mostly good people, just like my christian, jewish, hindu, etc. students are mostly good people...they have friends of all faiths...the school system bends over backwards to make them feel welcome...there is far more anti-christian and anti-jewish sentiment in the public square than anti-muslim...they live here and they see christians, jews, hindus, and MUSLIMS living in harmony...they see mosques being built...they see people standing up and publicly criticizing the government, churches, religious leaders without fear of repraisal...they see organizations like the red cross and salvation army providing aid to ANYONE in need...they see american troops leaving their families to go halfway around the world and sacrificing their lives to protect MUSLIMS...they see americans donating money to help muslims who are victims of natural disasters, including muslims in IRAN whose leaders repeatedly refer to america as the great satan and call for our destruction...they are FREE to read anything they want, believe anything they want, and say anything they want while they're here and they are FREE to understand that those freedoms do not exist in their home countries...they are free to see the benefits to mind and spirit of living in a free country and they are free to decide they prefer to live in a country without those freedoms
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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"why do you and so many others blame only israel? you act as if israel could solve this problem simply by not retaliating to attacks"
This is where you keep making the same mistake over and over again.
At no time did anyone here blame ONLY Israel. We just understand that if a solution is going to be found, then it must include Israel stopping its bullying ways.
Of course, if a real solution is to be found, Hamas must stop its rocket attacks, and to get them to stop, it must also be recognized that these rocket attacks are precipitated by actions of Israel, including their action of blockading Gaza. When people start to become desperate, they will do desperate things. The Palestinians are desperate. Until that is understood, no one will find a solution to these problems.
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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Philo, Moosie, Bruno et al - my hat off to you folks. Their aim is not to make any cogent argument but merely to wear you down and to your credit they have been unsuccessful thus far (largely due to the brutality of the invasion). And when the dust settles - however temporarily - they will throw their curve ball i.e the anti-Semitite slight. According to Abe Foxman and his ADL stormtroops (who, by the way, spied on anti-apartheid activists in the US on behalf of the racist South African govt, Ahem...!) if you dare to utter Madoff and jew in the same sentence, then you are anti-semitic. Do me a favor!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"At no time did anyone here blame ONLY Israel."
Anyone who has read through all the posts of this thread could come to a different conclusion.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Bruce,
Your comments about foreign Muslim students in American universities reminded me of two of my graduate school classmates. One was a Jewish Israeli, the other a Muslim Iranian. They soon became fast friends. They were both good people. Unfortunately, I lost touch with them about 30 years ago, but their friendship showed what happens when people stop de-humanizing those who are different.
Unfortunately, this thread has had a lot of that de-humanization, beginning with its title and the initial hatefully anti-Israel posts, which engendered responses condemning terrorism, some of which painted with too broad a brush.
That's why I condemned the unnecessarily inflammatory rhetoric (at somewhere around 800 posts ago). I think most of the posters on this thread think that there's been sins on both sides of the conflict. It's the posts that fail to acknowledge and reflect this that keep this thread going.
John
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Bookworm;
I really and truly owe you an apology. I slept only three hours last night. I have friendships with Palestinians which I cherish. These images of suffering are not abstract polemics to me. I meant to write, "anything but a bigot." But instead I wrote "nothing but a bigot." I would never intend to communicate like that and I deeply apologize. That is, my mistake was unintentional, due to lack of sleep and hasty writing. I had to leave after posting or I would have corrected my mistake earlier. I will change it now, however.
I honestly have the highest regard for your profession as a teacher and hope that it brings increasing rewards. What subjects?
As to appreciating American Freedom, we also share common ground. My recently deceased father served in the U.S. Navy, Chief Warrant Officer, for twenty years, fighting in the Pacific Arena, and was a Pearl Harbor Survivor.
Even though I probably am a thorn in your side, I actually do strongly appreciate that you have opinions and are willing to express them.
And If were in my neighborhood, I'd welcome you to my home and enthsiastically show you my crags.
I'm glad I drew you out however and want to explain myself.
Forum discussions can easily degenerate by what is not expressed as much as what is expressed: When presented with photographs of profound representative suffering, your response was: "This is what it looks like when...genocide threats, murder, etc.."
I found this to be highly offensive, perhaps just like many have objected to the obviously rhetorical title of this thread (yet apparently did not opt to shift to Philo's alternative).
For example, if on the way home tonight you see bleeding, dying children and weeping parents on the side of the road from an apparant collision, would you just say, "this is what a car wreck looks like...they shouldn't have been speeding."
I hope not, and I hope you are the kind of person who would step up to the plate and offer help if none had yet arrived. I hope you would suspend judgements in such a case, it still being in the "heat" of disaster. Even afterwards, I would hope you would be very interested to understand what the true circumstances were which led to the accident. Was there black ice? Was there a another vehicle causing it? Was the driver returning home following a twenty four hour shift as an emergency room medic?
Being a teacher is fine indeed, but the position of authority places a greater burden of responsibility to look deeply and continually beneath the surface and to ascend the pinnacle of compassion and uderstanding, knowing that, "but for the grace of God, go I." We can take no ultimate personal credit for the privileges and freedoms, abilities, and even accomplishemts most of us were born into or did not achieve without help.
I chose to invite you to befriend Muslims, as equals, (rather than as a teacher, an authority), because it is an incremental step. I wouldn't recommend you to openly "seek-out " Palestinians in the current climate or put another way, I was as concerned for your well being, as well as recognizing the intensely personal and insecure feelings of all Palestinians right now. But leaving Palestinians aside (and certainly Hamas), I do believe you would benefit from the friendship, pespectives and (famously generous) hospitality, of Muslims in general, especially Arabs.
On a more personal level, Bookworm, it may help to tell you my own background. I'm not one to parade credentials as this is a cheap tactic, much abused. But I should mention that I have been hosting international students, visitors (and climbers), for over thirty years, including many appreciative Arabs and Palestinians too. This has been my vast privilege and honor. I take seriously the Mosaic admonitions to "love the foreigner," as well as the New Testament teachings and implications of Gentile inclusion. I possess a Masters of Divinity degree in Philosophy of Religion and Systematic
Theology with a concentration in Islamic Studies(3 yrs grad work). I have advanced studies in ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Romantic Languages. Earlier I just indicated this thread was a special area of interest to me, which is what I'd prefer to say, but I want you to see that I have not formed my opinions (concerning what Fatrad might see as the "Clash of Civilizations,") lightly. Forgive me if this sounds boastful.
All this to say that it has certainly not been my observation in all these years, that Middle Eastern Muslims in this country have been universally, successfully integrated or even slightly understood. We have a very long ways to go. "To whom much is given, much is expected," and so I see our burden being a great one when it comes to inclusion. Nor would I ever suggest they do not generally recognize and value the freedoms of American Democracy or that they or anyone else for that matter, does not recognize the indiscriminate devotions of the American Red Cross.
And I would like to add that for some, currents of "drunken" materialism and all-out promiscuity in Western culture, are not unnoticed either.
Again I wish to very personally apologize for my unfortunate error and to wish you well.
Bruce
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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My apologies. I just reread the beginning of the thread and along with the thread title there were some offensive posts. In this thread there were also some post calling for the complete destruction of the Palestinians, which I find offensive.
So I ask those who support Israel.
Do you think Israel is completely innocent in this?
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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And John(JEleazarian), The illustration you describe, says more than all the bombs or blood ever could. It is the evidence that hope exists and that goodness does indeed dwell within all of us when we choose to overcome our "inherited" animosities.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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we can argue back four thousand years, but that history is irrelevant...even if we begin at 1948, we'll never reach agreement...so let's deal with recent history--the last 10 years and see if anyone can recognize a pattern:
the world said to israel, "leave lebanon, and you will have peace"...israel left lebanon, but did it get peace? no, it was attacked by a stronger enemy that took israel's departure as an opportunity to rearm, and when israel retaliated, the world screamed...at israel
the world said to israel, "accept a two-state deal, and you will have peace"...israel (finally) accepted the idea of a palestinian state, but did it get peace? no, it got suicide bombers...so israel built a wall to keep out the bombers; the wall worked, but the world screamed...at israel
the world said to israel, "leave gaza, and you will have peace"...israel left gaza, but did it get peace? no, it got more attacks...so israel blocked the borders to stop the flow of weapons to be used against their children, and the world screamed...at israel
israel endured THOUSANDS of rocket attacks, yes, THOUSANDS, and the world said, "tsk, tsk, tsk"...when israel finally decided to retaliate and try to end the rocket attacks, the world screamed...at israel
so, forget about history, just tell me, right now, what can israel do to fulfill its primary obligation, which is to protect the israeli people? you keep repeating israel's "oppression", but what further concessions do you want israel to make that they haven't already made? and why should the israelis make any concessions to a group that calls for their destruction? that refuses to acknowledge israel's right to exist? that proudly prays for the extermination of jews all over the world?
name one israeli leader who calls for the destruction of the palestinian people...or calls for the extermination of muslims around the world...show me one video of israelis dancing in the streets to celebrate the deaths of palestinian civilians...show me one video of israeli children being taught to hate palestinians or muslims
hamas simply has to do two things to end the violence: stop attacking israel and recognize israel's right to exist = peace
bruno, your car wreck analogy doesn't work, but i'll edit for you:
what if bookworm was a chronic offender (multiple speeding tickets and accidents) and killed bruno's children in an accident...and then bruno sued and left bookworm penniless and made sure bookworm was never allowed to drive again so bookworm couldn't get a decent job and take care of his own kids...and let's say bookworm spent his welfare on booze instead of food and medicine for his kids...and then, bookworm went to cnn and cried on camera and said, "bruno is an oppressor; i want bruno dead; i should be allowed to live in bruno's house"...and then bookworm walked up and down the street firing a pistol into bruno's house all day, every day for three years before finally hitting another of bruno's children...and then let's say bruno came out with a big ass rifle and bookworm picked up a child and kept shooting into bruno's house where bruno's other children were still sleeping and playing...so bruno shot anyway and blew bookworm's arms off so bookworm couldn't shoot at bruno's house anymore, but bruno, despite his careful aim, also hit bookworm's child and then drove both bookworm and his child to the hospital and even paid for their medical treatment but bookworm's child died...and the cnn-watching world said, "bruno, you're a nazi"...what would i do?
i'd say bruno showed remarkable restraint and has a right to defend himself and protect his own children...i'd feel bad for bookworm's child, but i'd declare to the cnn-watching world that bookworm deserved the blame for the death of his own child...and if bookworm started kicking grenades at bruno's house with a child strapped to his back while the world stood by, i'd encourage bruno to shoot again, but this time shoot to kill
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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I feel sorry for bookworm's child too.
But what about all the kids that bookworms child goes to school with who Bruno also killed because the gun he told CNN he was shooting at bookworm with was actually an airplane with machine guns and he was carpet-sweeping the street as he chased down bookworm?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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I feel sorry for Bookworm. He has clearly demonstrated just how difficult it is to reach a heart thoroughly blackened by a lifetime of misinformation.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Lesson #1, teacher:
History is never irrelevant
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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"so, forget about history, just tell me, right now, what can israel do to fulfill its primary obligation, which is to protect the israeli people?"
Start by stopping all of the bullying.
but you will not realize this. You think Israel is innocent in all of its dealings.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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I'm really quite miffed indeed by your commendation Skipt:
"The fact that many of these guys can't do a thing to your arguments should be taken for what it is. They can't touch, Your excellent analysis."
Bookworms arguments are based consistently upon false premis and are thus fallacious from the get-go. Beyond that he routinely commits red herring, excluded middle, ad hominum, and equivocation.
Your commendation itself commits the error of circular reasoning.
Yet what is most disturbing is the lack of humanity, failing to recognize the sacred nature of all human life by communicating indifference to the suffering of innocents.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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I have very clearly stated I oppose the violent actions and tactics of Hamas, Skipt.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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If you corner a rat in a corner, and kick and beat him and try to kill him after killing his family, would it be wrong if he bit you?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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Sadly, scabang got his bang-for-buck troll here....exacerbate the problem...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:33am PT
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Do you suppose skip that Israel went from 20,000 or so Jews 100 years ago to their current status only defending themselves? Does the right of self defense apply only to the Israeli side?
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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I don't see how it could, Karl, self defense and all.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:40am PT
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"and NOT attacking them is cause for a "defense" "
If only this were true. Israel has behaved scandalously towards the Palestinians. The truth will come out. Israel is not innocent.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 10, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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By out, I just meant common knowledge. Its out. Most just fail to see because it makes it more difficult to pick sides. People like black and white equations.
Hamas Bad
Israel good.
The problem is that Israel isn't really good. They have brutalized the Palestinians.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 10, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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"The people of Israel don't have to be perfect to defend themselves. "
More black and white thinking.
No one expects them to be "perfect". We expect them to treat their neighbors the way that they want to be treated. Much Like Jesus taught. If they wont, then I see no reason to support them financially. The Palestinians would never have elected Hamas for its leadership if Israel hadn't brutalized them. Watch the film "Death in Gaza" for an example.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 10, 2009 - 02:22am PT
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I condemn them also. I also see things to condemn in Israel.
The question is.. How to stop the rocket attacks. My premise has been that bombing the living daylights out of innocent people would not work. At least for long.
You seem to say that there are no innocent people in Gaza because they voted for Hamas. Well Israelis voted for their government and their government has done brutal things. So by your logic, there are no innocents in Israel.
Personally I think that there are Innocent people on both sides and neither side is doing themselves good. I prefer to take no sides, which is why I don't support giving money to Israel until they clean up their act.
You seem to focus only on the rockets of Hamas while ignoring the acts of Israel. The rockets of Hamas are a direct result of actions of Israel. The bombs of Israel are the direct results of the rockets of Hamas.
So how do you stop this? Especially when you try to follow Jesus' teachings. He who lives by the sword will die by the sword. He who seeks so save his mortal life, will surely lose his spiritual life.
I don't think that Jesus would condone the actions of Israel, nor would he condone those of Hamas. So how do you stop the viscious cycle of attacks? Or do you just wish to ignore what Jesus taught and go back to old testament ways?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 10, 2009 - 08:53am PT
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"...condemning the act of Hamas sending rockets over the fence at innocent people, those having nothing to do with the conflict, is just plain "ethical" in my book."
So WHY IS IT OF NO - TO YOU, ANYWAY - ETHICAL CONSEQUENCE THAT ISRAEL IS KILLING HUNDREDS, INJURING THOUSANDS, OF INNOCENT PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONFLICT?
Round and round she goes. Where she stops, nobody knows. Except that - we do know. Someone is going to push the 'wrong guy' and a nuclear weapon will be fired. And then, there will be a charred pit of a nation - could be ANY nation and not necessarily what any of us feels is "the bad guy" - that will make Hiroshima look like a small kitchen fire.
And....then what happens?
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
I don't even know anymore
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Jan 10, 2009 - 09:02am PT
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They all have their own reasons for wanting to slaughter each other, reasons that go beck long before any of us were even a glimmer in our fathers' eyes.
We should wash our hands of the whole thing, let them continue their wars. This means no meddling, no funding for the Israelis or the Palestinians.
Let 'em settle their differences for the next thousand(s) of years, develop our own energy sources, and if necessary, nuke 'em into a sheet of glass.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 09:09am PT
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Note: 28 Israelis have died in rocket attacks since they started in 2001. 235 Palestinian Children have died in the past two weeks. How far can you go and call it self-defense?
and again, was it self-defense that elevated the Jewish Population for Israel from 12,000 in 1845 to 6 million or so now? By comparison, there were 8000 jews in milwaukee in 1900. When does aggressive war stop and the stolen land become yours to self-defend?
The aggression goes both ways
Simple short Gaza FAQ from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7818022.stm
Peace
Karl
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 10, 2009 - 10:35am PT
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"Every year, the United Nations General Assembly votes on a resolution entitled “Peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question.” And every year the vote is the same: it’s the whole world on one side; Israel, the United States and some South Sea atolls and Australia on the other side. The vote this past year was 164-to-7. Every year since 1989—in 1989, the vote was 151-to-3, the whole world on one side, the United States, Israel and the island state of Dominica on the other side.
We have the Arab League, all twenty-two members of the Arab League, favoring a two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. We have the Palestinian Authority favoring that two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. We now have Hamas favoring that two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. The one and only obstacle is Israel, backed by the United States. That’s the problem. " Norman Finkelstein
The Zionist Power Configuration in the the US consisting of AIPAC and The Confrence of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations have effectively hijacked the United States government. Witness Thursdays vote in the senate. The US Senate passed a secretly drafted and fast-tracked resolution co-sponsored by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and Republican Senator Mitch McConnell by unanimous voice vote (meaning there will be no written record of who voted yes or who abstained) "recognizing the right of Israel to defend itself against attacks from Gaza and reaffirming the United States' strong support for Israel in its battle with Hamas" Senate staffers refer to this completely one sided piece of legislation as the AIPAC Bill.
How do they do it? How does a country of approximately 6-7 million people exert a strangle hold on the foriegn policy of the worlds only super power?
Some years ago I chanced upon a book written by ex- Illinois Republican Congressman, Paul Findley. The book, They Dare to Speak Out, was an early insight into the powers of AIPAC. Indeed Finley himself lost his Congressional seat through the actions of Israel's lobby. Money, not from the mid-west but from the east & west coasts, injected into his opponents campaign effectively ended his political career. And that is pretty much how it's done, money and lots of it. Although Jews make up roughly only 2% of the US population, there is tremendous concentrated wealth and a great desire amongst some, to fund Zionism.
AIPAC is perhaps the most infuential lobby in the United States. It is a very persistent and efficient organization. It's members are extremely dedicated to Israels cause. AIPAC frequently draws up legislation and gets it passed in both houses. Presently, the US gifts Israel $5 - 6 billion dollars a year, at a time when our own economy is very weak and uncertain. Today, Israel's per capita income is $30,000 and it's citizen enjoy universal health care. Still, we here in the US are funding them, even re-imbursing $200 million for the 2006 Lebenon attack. Not only do we provide the F16's, Appache gunships, the bombs, we even provide for their Jet fuel. Think about it for a second. Are these actions in the best interest of the the US tax payer or have our elected representitives sold out to a foriegn power? Shouldn't this be construed as treason? What's in it besides 911 or worse for us?
Zionism, from it's inception has always been about aquiring the land and often through the most ruthless methods. The current massacre (no, this is not a war) is but another in a never ending line as Robert Fisk of the London Independent illustrates this week; "So once again, Israel has opened the gates of hell to the Palestinians. Forty civilian refugees dead in a United Nations school, three more in another. Not bad for a night's work in Gaza by the army that believes in "purity of arms". But why should we be surprised? Have we forgotten the 17,500 dead – almost all civilians, most of them children and women – in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon; the 1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in the Sabra-Chatila massacre; the 1996 Qana massacre of 106 Lebanese civilian refugees, more than half of them children, at a UN base; the massacre of the Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by the Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter crew; the 1,000 dead of that same 2006 bombardment and Lebanese invasion, almost all of them civilians?"
There are those on this forum that continue to embrace the mainstream Israeli view point about protecting their citizens from rocket fire (or are they distress flares?). I'm afraid this is not the reason for the current incursion into Gaza. The real reason has everything to do with making life hell for the Palestinians, with the intent of them just giving up and going away; "This war on the people of Gaza isn’t really about rockets. Nor is it about “restoring Israel’s deterrence,” as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”
Rashid Khalidi
As long as AIPAC is allowed to function as a most effective lobby rather than an agent of a foriegn power I feel that there is little hope for any just and peaceful resolution to this conflict. I also hold little hope for president-elect Obama to make any meaningful change here. JUst yesterday, Hillary Clinton anounced neocon and ardent zionist, Dennis Ross as top US advisor to Middle East/ Iran. This does not bode well and reflects business as usual. I do believe the word is getting out and that at some point the people of this country are going to say enough already, but it will take alot of work. The debates on this forum are an important step. 5 years ago the subject was taboo. Regardless of the spin put on this by the mainstream US media Israeli actions are war crimes of the severest degree. Targeting a trapped civilian population who's borders are effectively sealed to prevent them from fleeing either by Israel or de-facto by Egypt (who also gets a $500 million annual US taxpayer funded bribe) is beyond comprehension. This is ethnic cleansing. Think about it, 200 plus children slaughtered. It is time to end financial support for this theocracy. Those who knowingly condone this are the sickest of humans. There are many Jewish voices for peace both here and in Israel and I think it time that their message is heard. Only through an informed narrative will it be possible to come to a just solution for both Israelis and Palestinians,
To all that speak out against this brutality, thank you
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 10, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jan 10, 2009 - 11:49am PT
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When a cartoon tells it all.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
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When a cartoon tells it all......you have a very simple mind.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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"We now have Hamas favoring that two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. The one and only obstacle is Israel,"
Ahad is delusional.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 10, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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that's pretty offensive, Philo. I'm surprised you'd make something like that, much less post it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 10, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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I think that Philo's comic is rather brilliant. Sometimes the Truth hurts. That is, if you are attached to untruth. Yet the Truth will set you free. America and Israel do worship the almighty dollar. And trickle down economics does keep the little guy poor. As for the reference to Jeff, I think that Jeff is a big boy and can defend himself.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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The complete demonization of any side is a sign of blindness and some negative "ism"
There but for the grace of God go You (and I)
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 10, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
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Happiegirl I am surprised you find my cartoon offensive when other's calls for the "nuclear" solution go unchallenged.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 10, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
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"when other's calls for the "nuclear" solution go unchallenged."
What are you talking about now? What call for a nuclear solution?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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I lived in an Orthodox Jewish Household for a couple long summers in UpState New Year while I delivered Bakery Goods to some local bungalow colonies, Yeshivas, and old resort hotels.
The food was great!
But it took a Jewish Girlfriend to get me to try Gefiltafish. Best thing I can say is that it tastes better than it looks.
Peace
Karl
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 10, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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"Happiegirl I am surprised you find my cartoon offensive when other's calls for the "nuclear" solution go unchallenged."
Unfortunately, I have low expectations of the "nuclear solution" type. That doesn't mean I don't find that sort of comment revolting.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 10, 2009 - 06:12pm PT
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But not worth admonishing happie girl? The previous cartoon didn't bother you. Why?
Well Graniteclimber how about the recent post from Noshoesnobrain..."We should wash our hands of the whole thing, let them continue their wars. This means no meddling, no funding for the Israelis or the Palestinians.
Let 'em settle their differences for the next thousand(s) of years, develop our own energy sources, and if necessary, nuke 'em into a sheet of glass".
...For just one example
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 06:17pm PT
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This thread is long enough to childishly try to claim the centennial posts
900
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 10, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 10, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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"But not worth admonishing happie girl? The previous cartoon didn't bother you. Why?"
Because the others were not created by a STian using another Stian personally, most likely is the reason for no comment from me.
Political cartoons against politicians - they sort of have to accept it's going to happen. They're so far removed they don't see the damned things anyway.
Had you posted the one in that cache of photographs, where Uncle Sam is soaking leisurely in a swimming pool of Palestinian blood, the leader of Israel having just gotten out and toweling off, and the western world obliviously getting a suntan - which had the same/similar meaning but wasn't personal, I would have found that an effective statement.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
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Besides, you kinda look younger in the at cartoon!
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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Wow! 900 post's - who would've thought; thank you everyone! 820 Palestinians killed which includes only 235 children; never to see another sunrise (Israeli's? Well, thankfully they've managed to "scribble" more of their own i.e 'friendly fire'. Pilots, tank commanders and artillery types must be profoundly proud of there kill rate. Well done chaps, Hitler would've been proud of you although i don't think that he corralled everyone into a tiny piece of land and bombed the shite out of them. Anyhow, thanks again and we can all look forward to reaching 1000. HAPPY NEW YEAR!
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 10, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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Kind and Happy:
This might be a good spot to point out there is a long and "proud" history of political satire by specialist writers and cartoonists. If it weren't for them everybody would probably go insane. Most of them are takes on stereotypes and caricatures of celebrity, career polititians. Yet, I'm afraid Fattrad may have placed himself in that catagory, given his penchant for name dropping. It didn't phase me personally to have been drafted into a star role recently in a revenge murder scenario, and somehow I think and hope Fattrad can take it. As long as those who dish it out can also take it...
But I esteem your decency and hope I'm not being condenscending.
I can't draw a simple circle or reasonably straight line. -Bruce
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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This was largo's post over at rc.com and reflects exactly what I was thinking.
Largo said:
Good intentioned people have been discussing and debating this problem as nauseum and yet the fighting continues. Talking, apparently, alters nothing.
What to actually do, when it seems that - for the world at large - Israeli lives are valued over Palestinians, like, 100 to 1. I mean, really, who gives a sh#t about the Palestinians, other than for armchair humanitarians (like me) to give them lip service?
I don't blame Israel's retaliation for bombs lobbed their way but surely some of their more aggressive responses don't square with international law. Is there anyone stepping forward to enforce anything over there?
Clearly, no one in power actually cares enough about Palestine to do a damn thing (there's no money in it for anyone), leaving Israel to police the joint by default. As is, as has been for 2,000 years, nothing is changing. The only delusion is to believe it will so long as the international community continues to do basically the same thing - discuss and debate the situation.
JL
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:18am PT
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Three cheers for Fatalism!!!!!!!!!
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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"What to actually do, when it seems that - for the world at large - Israeli lives are valued over Palestinians, like, 100 to 1. I mean, really, who gives a sh#t about the Palestinians"
But seriously, this is very mistaken when you consider that the subject of Palestinian justice is a central defining issue of modern religion and politics throughout the Islamic world (>800,000,000) and definitely beyond. John and Werner --very few of them are Sufi Mystics.
edit: (unless by value you mean "economic value")
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:30am PT
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There you go again "lip service"
......continues to do basically the same thing - discuss and debate the situation.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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No, I insist Werner...people who I know and love. Not just lip service.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:47am PT
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Don't respond, don't respond, don't respond . . . .
goose fraba, goose fraba . . . Oh damn!
"Clearly, no one in power actually cares enough about Palestine to do a damn thing (there's no money in it for anyone)"
This is an EXCELLENT point! And not just about the Israeli/Pallestinian conflict. This is the exact reason we should never consider what the UN says about anything.Can't tell you the number of times I've stood and listened to America getting slammed by the media while all around were U.N. food aid bags with U.S. printed all over them. The U.S. is by far the #1 contributor to the U.N. and we shouldn't be. They did a fine job of standing by and watching in Rowanda. "Hotel Rowanda" tries to illustrate this. A few examples from this past week include: Philippine separatist(islamic) bombings, Sunni-Shia attacks in Pakistan, Somali pirates seize yet another ship, UN aid workers killed in Somalia, and an escalation of the tribal war in Kenya that some are starting to compare to Rowanda. Who should care about this? Who should try to do something about this?
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 07:25am PT
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the enablers of Israeli power lie here. This bill was drafted by AIPAC. Any of these your congressman? Only 5 had the sac to stand up to the lobby. Drop them a line and let them know in no uncertain terms where you stand:
FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 10
(Democrats in roman; Republicans in italic; Independents underlined)
H RES 34 2/3 YEA-AND-NAY 9-Jan-2009 1:40 PM
QUESTION: On Motion to Suspend the Rules and Agree
BILL TITLE: Recognizing Israel’s right to defend itself against attacks from Gaza, reaffirming the United States’ strong support for Israel, and supporting the Israeli-Palestinian peace process
Yeas Nays PRES NV
Democratic 222 4 22 8
Republican 168 1 8
Independent
TOTALS 390 5 22 16
---- YEAS 390
Ackerman
Aderholt
Adler (NJ)
Akin
Alexander
Altmire
Andrews
Arcuri
Austria
Baca
Bachmann
Bachus
Baldwin
Barrett (SC)
Barrow
Bartlett
Barton (TX)
Bean
Becerra
Berkley
Berman
Biggert
Bilbray
Bilirakis
Bishop (GA)
Bishop (NY)
Bishop (UT)
Blackburn
Blunt
Boccieri
Boehner
Bonner
Bono Mack
Boozman
Boren
Boswell
Boustany
Boyd
Brady (PA)
Brady (TX)
Braley (IA)
Bright
Broun (GA)
Brown, Corrine
Brown-Waite, Ginny
Buchanan
Burgess
Burton (IN)
Butterfield
Buyer
Calvert
Camp
Campbell
Cantor
Cao
Capito
Capps
Capuano
Cardoza
Carnahan
Carney
Carson (IN)
Carter
Cassidy
Castle
Castor (FL)
Chaffetz
Chandler
Childers
Clarke
Clay
Cleaver
Clyburn
Coble
Coffman (CO)
Cohen
Cole
Conaway
Connolly (VA)
Conyers
Cooper
Costa
Costello
Courtney
Crenshaw
Crowley
Cuellar
Culberson
Cummings
Dahlkemper
Davis (AL)
Davis (CA)
Davis (IL)
Davis (KY)
Davis (TN)
Deal (GA)
DeGette
DeLauro
Dent
Diaz-Balart, L.
Diaz-Balart, M.
Dicks
Doggett
Donnelly (IN)
Doyle
Dreier
Driehaus
Duncan
Edwards (TX)
Ehlers
Ellsworth
Emerson
Engel
Eshoo
Etheridge
Fallin
Fattah
Filner
Flake
Fleming
Forbes
Fortenberry
Foster
Foxx
Frank (MA)
Franks (AZ)
Frelinghuysen
Fudge
Garrett (NJ)
Gerlach
Giffords
Gillibrand
Gingrey (GA)
Gohmert
Gonzalez
Goodlatte
Gordon (TN)
Grayson
Green, Al
Green, Gene
Griffith
Guthrie
Gutierrez
Hall (NY)
Hall (TX)
Halvorson
Hare
Harman
Harper
Hastings (FL)
Hastings (WA)
Heinrich
Heller
Herger
Higgins
Hill
Himes
Hinojosa
Hirono
Hodes
Hoekstra
Holden
Holt
Honda
Hoyer
Hunter
Inglis
Inslee
Israel
Issa
Jackson (IL)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Jenkins
Johnson (IL)
Johnson, E. B.
Johnson, Sam
Jordan (OH)
Kanjorski
Kaptur
Kennedy
Kildee
Kilroy
Kind
King (IA)
King (NY)
Kingston
Kirk
Kirkpatrick (AZ)
Kissell
Klein (FL)
Kline (MN)
Kosmas
Kratovil
Lamborn
Lance
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Latham
LaTourette
Latta
Lee (NY)
Levin
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (GA)
Linder
Lipinski
LoBiondo
Loebsack
Lofgren, Zoe
Lowey
Lucas
Luetkemeyer
Luján
Lummis
Lungren, Daniel E.
Lynch
Mack
Maffei
Maloney
Manzullo
Marchant
Markey (CO)
Markey (MA)
Marshall
Massa
Matheson
Matsui
McCarthy (CA)
McCarthy (NY)
McCaul
McClintock
McCotter
McGovern
McHenry
McHugh
McIntyre
McKeon
McMahon
McMorris Rodgers
McNerney
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Melancon
Mica
Michaud
Miller (FL)
Miller (MI)
Miller (NC)
Minnick
Mitchell
Mollohan
Moore (KS)
Moran (KS)
Murphy (CT)
Murphy, Patrick
Murphy, Tim
Murtha
Myrick
Nadler (NY)
Napolitano
Neal (MA)
Neugebauer
Nunes
Nye
Oberstar
Obey
Olson
Ortiz
Pallone
Pascrell
Pastor (AZ)
Paulsen
Pelosi
Pence
Perlmutter
Perriello
Peters
Peterson
Petri
Pingree (ME)
Pitts
Platts
Poe (TX)
Polis (CO)
Pomeroy
Posey
Price (GA)
Price (NC)
Putnam
Radanovich
Rangel
Rehberg
Reichert
Reyes
Richardson
Rodriguez
Roe (TN)
Rogers (AL)
Rogers (KY)
Rogers (MI)
Rohrabacher
Rooney
Ros-Lehtinen
Roskam
Ross
Rothman (NJ)
Roybal-Allard
Royce
Ruppersberger
Rush
Ryan (OH)
Ryan (WI)
Salazar
Sánchez, Linda T.
Sarbanes
Scalise
Schakowsky
Schauer
Schiff
Schmidt
Schock
Schrader
Schwartz
Scott (GA)
Scott (VA)
Sensenbrenner
Serrano
Sessions
Sestak
Shea-Porter
Sherman
Shimkus
Shuler
Shuster
Simpson
Sires
Skelton
Slaughter
Smith (NE)
Smith (NJ)
Smith (TX)
Smith (WA)
Souder
Space
Speier
Spratt
Stearns
Stupak
Sullivan
Sutton
Tanner
Tauscher
Taylor
Teague
Terry
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Thompson (PA)
Thornberry
Tiberi
Tierney
Titus
Tonko
Towns
Tsongas
Turner
Upton
Van Hollen
Velázquez
Visclosky
Walden
Walz
Wamp
Wasserman Schultz
Watt
Waxman
Weiner
Welch
Westmoreland
Wexler
Whitfield
Wilson (OH)
Wilson (SC)
Wittman
Wolf
Wu
Yarmuth
Young (AK)
Young (FL)
---- NAYS 5
Kucinich
Moore (WI)
Paul
Rahall
Waters
---- ANSWERED “PRESENT” 22
Abercrombie
Blumenauer
DeFazio
Dingell
Edwards (MD)
Ellison
Farr
Grijalva
Hinchey
Johnson (GA)
Kilpatrick (MI)
Lee (CA)
McCollum
McDermott
Miller, George
Moran (VA)
Olver
Payne
Sanchez, Loretta
Stark
Watson
Woolsey
---- NOT VOTING 16
Baird
Berry
Boucher
Brown (SC)
Delahunt
Gallegly
Granger
Graves
Hensarling
Herseth Sandlin
Jones
Kagen
Shadegg
Snyder
Solis (CA)
Tiahrt
here's a link that might help:
http://www.endtheoccupation.org/article.php?id=1780
this link makes it easy to email congressman;
http://www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.html
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:49am PT
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Good Morning All! I wanted to take a moment and respond a little more more to Werner's post above, in which he quotes Largo.
One would truly have to be a moroon (Skipts term) to fail to recognize how incredibly intracted and futile the "peace process" of debate and passion seems to be on this modern conflict which does have ancient roots. My concern about Largo's post is that it might be interpreted by some as a call to violent action as an alternative to negotiation, by those with a superficial view of "law." Knowing Largo personally, I'm confident that is not at all what he is saying. I expect Werner and John are calling us to a deeper consciousness, first hand experience, or possibly, to engage ourselves in positve peacemaking actions which speak louder that words.
I want to post reminder that all of us have different tolerances for argument, and some personalities have no qualms about injecting personal judgements. I grew up in a family where nightly current event wars around the dinner table were to be expected. My mother had the ability to bring some calm to it by bringing in a world almanac, or encyclopaedia, which had the effect of shifting the tide and promoting reason. My wife comes from a family which avoided political and religious conflicts of any kind, and she has little tolerance for it, being more interested in patient observation and personal authenticity.
Earlier upthread, Jeleazarian provided us with a story of friendship forged between an Israeli and a Palestinian. I myself related my experience of recognizing my own racial prejudice and have offered for reflection, my strong experiences befriending internationals in my own home, among my children. All three of my children, now grown, have already demonstrated an exceptional maturity interculturally.
It may be that the most difficult boulder problems seem impossible and involve some cursing and group competition. But that is different than saying it is hopeless. It may be there is a Providential Destiny at work, yet that does not waive Human Responsibility, as Lincoln deeply exposited.
It is always a good reminder to recognize the limitations of debate and government, because convictions and consequences truly do result from a consensus of our inner beings.
There are three questions here: Is war ever just? If so, is this particular war just? And finally, if so, is it being waged in a just manner? Let's "get out the world almanac and encyclopedia" AND lets get humbly on our knees.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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Watch this then tell me my comic was not funny or in bad taste or mean spirited or what ever you want to tell me or call me. But first watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlfhoU66s4Y
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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'Phosphorus' fears over Gaza wounds
Human Rights Watch said it was clear Israel had fired shells containing white phopshorus[GALLO/GETTY]
Doctors in Gaza City have told Al Jazeera that people have been admitted suffering burns consistent with the use of the controversial chemical white phosphorus.
Human rights campaigners say that Israeli forces used the munition, which can burn away human flesh to the bone, over Gaza City and Jabaliya in recent days.
Residents in densely-packed Jabaliya have described Israeli forces exploding shells that drop scores of burning fragments and spread suffocating smoke.
"Its the first time we see this type of weapon, it must be new and its seems like its phosphorous," one resident told Al Jazeera.
"Its suffocating and has a deadly poisonous smell that I am sure will cause a lot of sickness and disease on all of the civilians here," he said.
Law 'violated'
Another witness said she saw "... a bright flash and then all of these sparks fell on our area ... landing all around us and in our homes. Our mattresses caught on fire".
IN DEPTH
Analysis and features from Gaza and Israel
Track the war and submit your own reports
Send us your views and eyewitness videos
Watch our coverage of the war on Gaza
The use of the munition in densely-populated areas violates the requirement under international humanitarian law for all feasible precautions to be taken to avoid civilian injury and loss of life, Human Rights Watch said.
International law permits its use in order to cover troop movements and prevent enemies from using certain guided weapons.
Marc Garlasco, a senior military analyst at the human rights group told Al Jazeera on Saturday that he had watched Israeli ground forces using white phosphorus.
"Clearly it is [white phosphorus], we can tell by the explosions and the tendrils that go down [and] the fires that were burning," he said.
"Today there were massive attacks in Jabaliya when we were there. We saw that there were numerous fires once the white phosphorus had gone in.
"We went by Israeli artillery units that had white phosphorus rounds with the fuses in them."
Mark Regev, the Israeli government spokesman, said he was unable to confirm or deny whether the military was using the chemical, but that Israel did not use munitions that were banned under international law.
"I don't have the knowledge of the detail of what ammunition we are using. I can only know for a fact that Israel uses no ammunition that is outlawed under conventions and that Nato forces would not use in a similar combat situation," he told Al Jazeera.
Israel used white phophorus during its 34-day war against Lebanon's Hezbollah movement in 2006, while the United States used it during the controversial siege of the Iraqi city of Fallujah in 2004.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
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Israel is Immune From Criticism
By BRIAN CLOUGHLEY
The state of Israel has descended – plummeted – to one of the lowest levels of conscious barbarity that is currently evident in this horrible world.
Any nation that has behaved towards a subject people, as Israel has to Palestinians, is worthy only of utter contempt. On Sunday January 4 I heard a rabbi on the BBC's morning religious program saying that he supported Israel's air strikes on Gaza. A man of God actually endorsed the killing of hundreds of people. To say that I was – and am – aghast at the sentiment expressed is to put it very mildly. This religious leader, a person supposed to spread and preach tolerance, patience, charity and peace, was supporting war crimes of immense gravity. His approval of the killing of Arabs was blood-chilling.
And this rabbi was British. Here we have a British citizen supporting hatred and bigotry on a BBC religious program. But of course he isn't really British. He is an Israeli religious propagandist of British citizenship whose main allegiance is to Israel. There are thousands like him in the UK and the US. They unconditionally promote Tel Aviv's plans and policy and wield amazing influence over politicians and businesses. Killing Palestinians is Israeli policy, and these people spare no effort to justify it.
Here's a resident of Gaza talking to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz about the horrors experienced by Palestinians (and congratulations to Haaretz for having the courage to print it): "I keep the children away from the windows because the F-16s are in the air; I forbid them to play below because it's dangerous. They're bombing us from the sea and from the east, they're bombing us from the air. When the telephone works, people tell us about relatives or friends who were killed. My wife cries all the time. At night she hugs the children and cries. It's cold and the windows are open; there's fire and smoke in open areas; at home there's no water, no electricity, no heating gas. And you [the Israelis] say there's no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Tell me, are you normal?"
No, they're not, is the short answer, and the ruthlessness is epitomised by the evil Israeli foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, who is using the Gaza war to establish her credentials as a reliably hard-nosed barbarian. She declares "there is no humanitarian crisis in the [Gaza] Strip and therefore there is no need for a humanitarian truce."
It was reported on January 5 that Israeli troops are using white phosphorus (WP) artillery shells in Gaza, supposedly to create smoke screens to conceal their advance.
American troops used WP – fondly known as Willy Pete – in their destruction of the Iraqi city of Fallujah, and the US tried to lie its way out of the war crime, but junior officers unintentionally blew the lies apart by writing in the magazine Field Artillery that "WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions . . . and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against insurgents in trench lines and spider holes . . . We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents using WP to flush them out and high explosive shells (HE) to take them out." In fact WP is an effective killer, and anyone who inhales particles will suffer a particularly hideous and painful death. As recorded by The Independent newspaper in Britain "In the aftermath of the battle [at Fallujah], the State Department's Counter Misinformation Office issued a statement saying that WP was only "used very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes. They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night [which isn't the propose of a smoke-shell], not at enemy fighters." When The Independent confronted the State Department with the first-hand accounts of soldiers who participated, an official accepted the mistake and undertook to correct its website." Big deal. Lie, lie and lie again, until you're found out and it's impossible to deny the facts. And the Israelis seem to be taking the example, as usual, and are stoutly denying what has been seen by independent witnesses.
Article two, Protocol III of the 1980 UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons states: "It is prohibited in all circumstances to make the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects, the object of attack by incendiary weapons." But Israel is only following the US example. "Shake and bake" is such an attractive military option that it would be a shame to spoil their fun, especially when it has rabbinical approval.
Here is part of what is laid out in Protocol 1, Additional to the Geneva Conventions, 1977 . . . General Protection Against Effects of Hostilities: "Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate: An attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated."
Israel, supported energetically by Washington (and using US-supplied aircraft, bombs and rockets), has caused "incidental loss of life" and general civilian casualties on an enormous scale. The Israeli military and the Israeli people knew full well that their genocidal attack on Gaza would kill civilians. The use of white phosphorous in built-up areas is worthy of the Nazis at their most brutal. Stalin and Mao would nod approvingly. It wasn't considered important that there would be countless civilian deaths. Nobody cares, and least of all American politicians. The next secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, refuses to comment on the atrocities. The incoming vice-president has been silent. President-elect Obama? As Reuters reported : "Obama . . . has not commented on the Middle East crisis since Israel launched attacks on Gaza nine days ago. His advisers insist that only President George W Bush can speak for America until then." But it was noted that "The president-elect has commented on the global economic crisis and his plans to try to pull the US economy out of recession."
Of course he has. And were it not for the power of Israel in America he would no doubt comment adversely on the slaughter in Gaza, because he is a decent man.
But Mr Obama dare not criticize Israel, even for its use of chemical shells. Nor can any American who wishes to enter or remain engaged in politics. The kiss of political death in the United States of America is to censure Israel. It can't be done.
And that is why apartheid is permitted in Israel; it's why the mass-punishment blockade was enforced months before the attack went in; and it's why the near-genocide in Gaza is allowed to continue.
Does anyone remember the hearing on the so-called Israeli-Palestine peace process in the US House of Representatives in February 2007? Of course not. It was a farce. And why was it such a revolting and hideous charade? – Because it was a three card trick.
The main witness, of the three cards who were called, was one Martin Indyk, a former official of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee which is the richest and most powerful lobby group in the country (two of whose members are currently under a mysteriously delayed investigation for spying for Israel). From there, inevitably, he went to be US ambassador in Tel Aviv. (And, incidentally, whose book on the Middle East was the subject of a glowing review in last week's Economist.) Another witness was David Makovsky of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (founded by Indyk; it's all very chummy in pro-Israel sewers), which is funded extensively by American interests that support Zionism. (Among other connections, it is closely associated with the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University.) And was the third witness a counter-balance to two energetic supporters of Zion? Could he or she present a rather less biased view of the Middle East? Perhaps a person who would make the point that Israel has contemptuously ignored UN Security Council resolutions concerning illegal occupation of Palestinian lands?
Not a bit. The third member was a comic quasi-intellectual character called Daniel Pipes who once declared that Muslim immigrants to the US were "brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and not exactly maintaining Germanic standards of hygiene." (Germanic? – How quaint.) Pipes founded the Middle East Forum (MEF) which encourages university students in America to report lecturers and professors who they consider to be anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian. (In Hitler's Germany there were awards given to young people who identified and reported those they thought to be pro-Jewish; I know a very elderly German lady who did this when she was 15. She is now terribly ashamed at the memory, because she actually informed on her own father. How times change. Or don't, of course.)
In 2006 Pipes was given the 'Guardian of Zion' award, an annual prize to a prominent supporter of Israel, by the Rennert Center for Jerusalem Studies at Bar-Ilan University in Israel.
With a galaxy of partisan propagandists like Indyk, Makovsky and Pipes being the only people selected to give evidence on Israel-Palestine to the nation's legislators in Washington, there was no chance whatever that the Congressional Sub-Committee would be presented with a balanced view of the Israel-Palestine problem. The deck was stacked, and the legislators listened. They had no choice, because of the power of the Israel lobby. They've been shaken and baked.
There is little doubt that the bias towards Israel will continue in the legislature and administration of the United States of America, no matter what Obama might really think, and no matter how many Palestinian children the Zionists have slaughtered. The Israelis are behaving like genocidal filth, but those who stay silent about their atrocities are not far behind in the gutter stakes.
Brian Cloughley's book about the Pakistan army, War, Coups and Terror, has just been published by Pen & Sword Books (UK) and will be published in the US in May by Skyhorse (New York).
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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"Hamas, with training from Iran and Hezbollah, has used the last two years to turn Gaza into a deadly maze of tunnels, booby traps and sophisticated roadside bombs. Weapons are hidden in mosques, schoolyards and civilian houses, and the leadership’s war room is a bunker beneath Gaza’s largest hospital, Israeli intelligence officials say.
Unwilling to take Israel’s bait and come into the open, Hamas militants are fighting in civilian clothes; even the police have been ordered to take off their uniforms. The militants emerge from tunnels to shoot automatic weapons or antitank missiles, then disappear back inside, hoping to lure the Israeli soldiers with their fire."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?hp
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
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Israel has the most extreme military advantage imaginable. It's completely inexcusable to use White Phosphorus in a civilian area. It's a torturous weapon of chemical weapon terrorism in that context.
They don't need it. It can't be precisely targeted. It would burn the skin of children slowly to the bone.
it sad to me that folks lamenting over and over regarding the 28 people killed in the entire history of PAl rocket fire become totally silent in the death of 230+ children on the PAL side and use of Chemical Weapons.
Both sides need to feel the pressure
Peace
karl
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 11, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
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With, without,
And who'll deny,
It's what the fighting's all about.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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He wrote: "My wife comes from a family which avoided political and religious conflicts of any kind, and she has little tolerance for it, being more interested in patient observation and personal authenticity."
This confuses me. Having litle tolerance for the Israel/Palestinian conflic will surely not lead to a solution, patient observation is now seeming to be a ploy to endorce apathy and cold detachment, and while we might feel ourselves authentic and real in the process, nothing at all changes over there.
So it comes back to the age old question: What to do. Doing nothing IMO is a defalt position that secures our comfort and lets a bad situation get worse. Force doesn't seem to work, less so debate and negotiation.
What's left?
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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Skip wrote
"What is horrific is the fact that Hamas has set up in civilian areas in the first place. "
What planet are you from bro. Hamas is the elected government in Gaza. ALL of Gaza is a civilian area. Hamas has no planes, tanks, heavy military equipment or stuff like that at all.
So all this talk about Hamas hiding behind civilians and being a purely terrorist organization is plain misinformed. Hamas is a political party. They have no army. They have some militants that launch rockets but it's a small subset of the whole group. It's like asking the Republicans to clear out of civilian areas. If you sealed off Manhattan and asked all the Republicans to leave Manhattan, where would they go?
You have blinders on. There is no ONE group responsible for this.
But answer the question I've asked so many times. How do the Israelis go from having a tiny population of less than 100,000, 100 years ago to owning the vast majority of the country without any violence or blame on their side?
peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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"Ummm...
The way Mexicans have done so in this country without firing rockets.
To assert that you can only grow your population by imposing yourself militarily is beyond reason. "
So the Mexicans outnumber whites in California now. If they come push you from your home, move you to a closed off area in the Mojave desert, kill a bunch of your friends in the process, and make you carry a special ID card, what will be your reaction?
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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Just to note how wrongs multiply and create hells in the future. Trace the roots of the Vietnam War, the Israeli Conflict, and First Iraq war and you'll find western colonialism at the root. They were the ones who stole land with zero real justification and then divided it up in unnatural or unjust ways when they left.
The Vietnam war started as a defense of French Colonial rule in French Indo-China. Did Britain really have the authority to promise a (much smaller ) portion of Palestine for a Jewish state?
Solution?
International peacekeepers everywhere and an International conference to set fair borders on both sides, crammed down their throats with the threat of Cuba- like sanctions and blockades (like Israel already uses on the Palestinians)
The Israelis and the Palestinians both have long term goals for themselves that are unjust. Neither side can be trusted to work things out because their agenda always strategizes that down the line they will have an additional advantage.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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"Karl,
I never said any of that.
Once again.
Stop being stupid.
Skip"
Of course you didn't say that. What are you saying? Tell me how Israel went from 19,000 jews 150 years ago to Jewish state with most the land. It wasn't just that they moved in and bought up all the empty property.
SO I keep asking you to put yourself in their place, but you won't and can't. Imagine yourself having so many immigrants move in that they eventually call themselves a Hispanic state and curtain your rights and take your land. Just try.
Peace
Karl
PS hope this doesn't generate additional immigrant bias here.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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Very good movie. Deplorable propaganda.
Well it is clear and telling that Skipt, like Fattrad and a few others, get thir primary sence of the reality of the world from Hollywood. Reinforced, oh course, by the totally unbiased Fox news source.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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Clearly, neither side has the wherewithal to end this thing. Imagine if there was oil in Gaza. How long do you think this ruckus would be allowed to keep dragging on?
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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" Imagine if there was oil in Gaza."
Imagine if there were terrorists in Gaza who targeted people other than Jews...
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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Actually there is a natural gas field within Gazan territorial waters conservatively worth several billion dollars. Unfortunately as in most things Israel will not allow it do be developed lest it benefit the Palestinians.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
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"So it comes back to the age old question: What to do. Doing nothing IMO is a defalt position that secures our comfort and lets a bad situation get worse. Force doesn't seem to work, less so debate and negotiation.
What's left? "
You've answered your own question. When doing nothing is not an option and or engaging in debate and negotiation work less well then force, then force is the only viable option. You say "force doesnt' seem to work" but that is not true. Historically, force has worked very well when relentlessly applied, particularly in the Middle East. I believe that you engage in more self-examination, your complaint about force would be not that it doesn't work but because it results in so much death and destruction of the innocents.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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Israel uses White Phosphorus Munitions in defiance of treaty
Israel has claimed that it is taking all precautions to minimize civilian loss of life and casualties. This is bullsh#t.
One example of this is the use of White Phosphorus rounds in a way where the phosphorus does not burn off before it hits the ground. Phosphorus burns more or less on contact with air, and keeps burning until deprived of oxygen. People who suffer phosphorus burns not only have terrible burns, but they absorb the phosphorus through the skin, and suffer acute phosphorus poisoning. This used to be more common than it is, because phosphorus was used in friction matches and in industrial processes, it was sold for rat poison. During World War II, it was dropped on London as part of "the blitz." In the 1940's it was called by one journal article a menace to public health after noting that 50% of the people admitted for phosphorous poisoning died, as compared to 6% of all other non-alcohol poisonings.
So while using phosphorus rounds itself isn't against the relevant treaties, using it in a way that takes advantage of its toxic qualities makes it a chemical weapon, and it is completely inconsistent with any claim to be cautious or worrying about civilian loss of life to use it in a populated area, and allowing it to fall to the ground.
The problem with worrying about treaties here, for example the CWC is that Israel isn't a signatory to them. Instead the problem is that Israel has tried to present this as a humane war, a necessary war, and a limited war, with full concern for civilians. This is nonsense.
Phosphorus burns at 30C in humid air, that is, it spontaneously burns on a warm day, and keeps burning until it runs out of oxygen. Phosphorus burns even as it clings to the body, and even as it enters it. According to global security, up to 15% of the White Phosphorous - actually a slightly yellow waxy like substance - remains and can be reignited by impact or crushing.
When used for creating smoke WP is mixed with other materials, and burns almost completely within moments, this produces a deep white milky fog. When used as an incendiary weapon - that is, to cause burns - it is detonated to produce burning shrapnel that sticks to the skin. It is effective both against materials like oil, and against people. The US denied it's use as an anti-personnel weapon in Iraq, but in 2005 admitted that they had engaged in "shake and bake" operations where white phosphorus rounds were used to drive out insurgents who were then hit with high explosive rounds. This was done during both the invasion in 2003 and in the occupation. Saddam routinely used WP rounds in attacks against civilians.
Phosphorus burns are well known to cause deep and painful 2nd and 3rd degree burns. More over, phosphorus, while in very small amounts is used by the body, in larger doses rapidly causes acute poisoning, with no approved treatment. Phosphorus clings to mucous lined tissues, accumulates in the liver and kidneys, and causes death by organ failure. People vomit and suffer intense headaches and pain. The signature symptom is the "garlicky" smell of the burns, and a similar taste on the victim's mouth.
Half of all deaths occur in the first day because of cardiac arrest, in the majority of other cases death from renal failure or liver failaure comes in 4 to 8 days according to Heikki Nikkanen and Michel Burns Ewald in the most recent edition of Goldfrank's Toxicological Emergencies. One early bad sign is a rise in amniotrasferases enzymes, similar to the appearance of jaundice and other liver diseases.
The LD50 - that is the dose that will on average kill 50% of those exposed to it - is considered to be 1mg per kg of body weight. OSHA sets the acceptable exposure limit to it as .1 mg per m^3.
There is no accepted course of treatment, though JIST reports one case of using N-acetylcysteine.
This means that allowing exposure to WP for civilians, or as unexpended rounds in a conflict, is completely incompatible with any claim to be limiting civilian casualties. WP as a weapon causes burns and poisoning, leaves behind unexpended, but still spontaneously combustible phosphorus, it causes damage both to cells and to organ function. It has, to repeat an important point, no approved course of treatment.
Thus, while Israel isn't breaking any treaties - because it hasn't signed them - it clearly flouts the spirit and intention of conventions to ban the use of poisoning as a tool of war, and in causing excessive civilian casualties.
Israel banked a large moral surplus because of the long history of anti-semitism and genocide against Jews in European and global history. It spent some more of that today, and in more and more eyes, is passing into moral deficit.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 11, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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Once again Philo cherry picks his quotes. If he'd included the whole article (that's partialy plegarized) on WP from Pikes site on one of his other incessantly repetitive posts, you would have read this.
Casualties from WP smoke have not occurred in combat operations. At room temperature, white phosphorus is somewhat volatile and may produce a toxic inhalational injury. In moist air, the phosphorus pentoxide produces phosphoric acid. This acid, depending on concentration and duration of exposure, may produce a variety of topically irritative injuries. Irritation of the eyes and irritation of the mucous membranes are the most commonly seen injuries. These complaints remit spontaneously with the soldier's removal from the exposure site. With intense exposures, a very explosive cough may occur, which renders gas mask adjustment difficult. There are no reported deaths resulting from exposure to phosphorus smokes. Generally, treatment of WP smoke irritation is unnecessary. Spontaneous recovery is rapid.
White phosphorus fume can cause severe eye irritation with blepharospasm, photophobia, and lacrimation. Irritation of the eyes and irritation of the mucous membranes are the most commonly seen injuries. These complaints remit spontaneously with the soldier's removal from the exposure site. The WP smoke irritates the eyes and nose in moderate concentrations. With intense exposures, a very explosive cough may occur, which renders gas mask adjustment difficult. There are no reported deaths resulting from exposure to phosphorus smokes.
If the Israelis in Gaza or the Americans in Faluja had intended to cause the massive burn wounds and incindiary effects that WP is capable of, those shells would be bursting at 50-100 ft, not 500 ft up. Note that no massive fires or hordes of burn casualties occured in either case.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
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"Tell me how Israel went from 19,000 jews 150 years ago to Jewish state with most the land. It wasn't just that they moved in and bought up all the empty property."
I don't know if your 19,000 figure is accurate, but mostly they moved in and bought up property and not just "empty" property. There was massive immigration by European Jews and coming from Europe they had comparatively a lot of money compared to the indigenous "locals." A lot of the private property within the 1947borders was purchased. The rest was won in wars launched against Israel to try to eradicate them.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
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OK here is a solution; Since Zionist aggression has already killed two million Arabs since 1948 how about we let them keep going till they that hit the sacred number of SIX million. We can keep a telethon like tally board. Let them slaughter and cleanse the land, they believe God gave them, in any way they want. The rest of the world just sits back doing nothing but watching and counting. The minute they reach the hallowed SIX MILLION dead souls then all bets are off. Open season! Their guilt levied debt has been repaid. Now it is time for the world to respond.
You reap what you sow.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
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I'm curious. How many people would support a United States peace keeping force being deployed to Gaza? How many would support a U.S. sponsored Palestinian state with borders drawn up by a ME treaty organization if it meant enforcement by the U.S. military? It KILLS me to listen to uninformed drivel about the use of our military. People who say "I can understand Afghanistan but Iraq is criminal" are far left liberals trying to either slam Bush or make themselves look moderate while complaining about Iraq. Are these same people willing to support a war for the benefit of the Palestinians? So war is o.k. if it's for something YOU support? If we use the projection of power to support one issue then who is the one to say it's wrong to use in another? There are no black and white answers out there. The whole premise of this post is even in error. Everyone in Germany wasn't a Nazi nor was it an Evil Empire. We have so many problems we need to deal with in our own country yet everyone who has family or friends living in a hot zone wants U.S. intervention while, at the same time, condemn the U.S. in their other endeavors. When you're on top it's always a lose, lose situation.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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Jbar posted; "Everyone in Germany wasn't a Nazi nor was it an Evil Empire".
Seems some folks don't realize that Everyone in Gaza isn't Hamas nor isGaza an evil empire.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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Philo, if the Israelis had killed as many as you claim they did, there wouldn't be any Hamas because all the Palestinians would be dead.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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philo that is very true. True of every conflict throughout history. The sad fact of the current situation is that the people who just want to live their simple lives are caught up in all of the politics. There are many situations around the world deserving of as much attention as the Israeli/Pal conflict as well. Problem is they won't make money for the U.N. or the C.N.N.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+before+2000/Terrorism%20deaths%20in%20Israel%20-%201920-1999
From 1920 through 1999, a total of 2,500 residents of Mandatory Palestine and, since 1948, the State of Israel fell victims to hostile enemy action; in most cases, terrorist attacks.
The last terrorism-related death in 1999 was recorded on August 30, 1999. The first death in 2000 was recorded on September 27, 2000, with the outbreak of the current wave of Palestinian violence and terror.
The following statistics were provided by the National Insurance Institute:
Year Number killed
1920 9
1921 24
1922 5
1923 0
1924 4
1925 1
1926 1
1927 1
1928 0
1929 119
1920s total = 164
1930 0
1931 2
1932 4
1933 0
1934 0
1935 1
1936 44
1937 10
1938 94
1939 26
1930s total = 181
1940 137
1941 14
1942 4
1943 1
1944 3
1945 1
1946 28
1947 152
1948 379
1949 37
1940s total = 756
1950 52
1951 41
1952 40
1953 46
1954 41
1955 30
1956 53
1957 19
1958 15
1959 10
1950s total = 347
Year Number killed
1960 11
1961 8
1962 10
1963 7
1964 9
1965 10
1966 10
1967 16
1968 55
1969 33
1960s total = 169
1970 74
1971 18
1972 46
1973 27
1974 67
1975 39
1976 14
1977 9
1978 57
1979 10
1970s total = 361
1980 16
1981 14
1982 6
1983 21
1984 9
1985 27
1986 14
1987 11
1988 16
1989 40
1980s total = 174
1990 33
1991 21
1992 34
1993 45
1994 65
1995 29
1996 56
1997 41
1998 16
1999 8
1990s total = 348
695 dead Israelis between 1920 and 1990.
Wow thats not even a single 2 week IDF invasions worth.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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Just proves that the fanatical followers of the cult of the child molesting warlord aren't very good at jihad.
Estimates are that about 50 of the dead palestinians right now are fatah supporters that hamas has executed and left in garbage dumps around Gaza, then told the familys where to find them.
Of course Philo will include them in his total body count as well.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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You're all guilty too. All you drama queens helped cause this nightmare. You all have a hand in it, too.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:49pm PT
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I highly doubt you will see any more US peace keeping forces deployed because this involves massive amounts of money we no longer have. There is no return on investment for other countries to horn in (ask China, Japan, Russia, Germany, et al, how many forces and hard cash they are willing to contribute to a peace keeping operation in Gaza) therefore nothing over there will change.
Someone mentioned that force works if kept on indefinately. Problem is, this policy no longer works unless you want to bankrupt your country trying to "save" another. Reports I've been reading insist that occupations are probably going to end with Iraq owing to the costs. Basically, no one can afford an indefinate occupation any longer. Even Russia, fidling around with piss ant neighbors, is starting to hemorrage dough.
Perhaps another country will step up, but it's not going to be the US any time soon unless the soldiers are willing to work for nothing and live off Top Ramin and KoolAid.
Folks, we're worse than broke. This talk about US peace keeping forces is like a pauper shopping for a condo.
JL
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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Granite climber posted; "Philo, if the Israelis had killed as many as you claim they did, there wouldn't be any Hamas because all the Palestinians would be dead".
What an ignorant statement GC you obviously have no idea how many Palestinians there are in the world. Between those still trapped or valiantly defending THEIR homeland and the wide spread Diaspora Palestinians there are quite a few more than you seem to realize. One of the greatest concerns facing Israel is the shifting demographics of population increase. The fear loosing a Jewish majority as a way of justifying have a nonconstitutional theocracy.
So Jbar given what you just posted can you not see the inherent hypocrisy in the US continuing unquestioning support of all policies Israeli? Do you not see the obvious dilema in the one sided US financial support of Israel? Billions of dollars without restrictions compared to millions of heavily restricted dollars.
Do you not see the ethical morass of all the American made and supplied weapons used on mostly trapped and defenseless people?
If nothing else it is time for average Americans to find out what's really been going on for the last sixty years. Wake up and tell your representatives to pull AIPAC's foot out of their ass and stand up for what is JUST in the world!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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"You're all guilty too. All you drama queens helped cause this nightmare. You all have a hand in it, too."
LOL. I blame Werner. He spent his career saving climbers and hikers when he could have been saving the world!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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Philo, we're still waiting for support for your 2,000,000 number.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:19pm PT
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Largo - agreed. Problem is we ARE planning a scale up in Afghanistan. I have one family member heading there now and one going after a short leave when he comes home from Iraq. I'm all for following the lead of China, et all and ignoring the costly ventures which net us nothing but we will always have to protect out international interests just as China and Russia will. Russia's move into Osetia was to protect their oil pipeline. Their wars are much lest costly because they don't care who gets killed or what the rest of the world thinks of them.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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http://globalavoidablemortality.blogspot.com/2006/05/post-1967-palestinian-israeli-deaths.html
TUESDAY, MAY 16, 2006
Post-1967 Palestinian & Israeli deaths from occupation & violence
As of late APRIL 2006, how many Israelis and Palestinians, respectively, have died from Palestinian non-state violence and Israeli state violence?
SHORT ANSWER: 1,133 Israelis and an estimated 5,144 Palestinians (including 952 children) have been killed since September 2000. From UN data, the post-1967 avoidable mortality (excess mortality) in the Occupied Palestinian Territories totals 300,000 and the post-1967 under-5 infant mortality 183,000 (of which 90% has been avoidable) - as compared to 2,178 post-1967 Israeli terrorism deaths (Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs figures).
CAREFULLY DOCUMENTED ANALYSIS:
1. Terrorism deaths in Israel1920-1999 total 2,580 (Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, April 2006; see: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/1/Terrorism+deaths+in+Israel+-+1920-1999.htm ).
Quote: “From 1920 through 1999, a total of 2,580 residents of Mandatory Palestine and, since 1948, the State of Israel fell victims to hostile enemy action; in most cases, terrorist attacks. The last terrorism-related death in 1999 was recorded on August 30, 1999. The first death in 2000 was recorded on September 27, 2000, with the outbreak of the current wave of Palestinian violence and terror” (“Terrorism deaths in Israel: 1920-1999”, Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, April 2006; see: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/1/Terrorism+deaths+in+Israel+-+1920-1999.htm ).
2. Terrorism deaths in Israel 1967-1999 total 1,065 (Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, April 2006; see: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/1/Terrorism+deaths+in+Israel+-+1920-1999.htm ).
3. Terrorism deaths in Israel since 2000 total 1,113
Quote: “ 1,113 people have been killed by Palestinian violence and terrorism since September 2000” (specifically 27 September 2000 – 17 April 2006; “Victims of Palestinian violence and terrorism since September 2000”, Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, April 2006; see: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm ).
4. From the above information, all derived from the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, we can calculate that as of April 2006 there have been 4,758 terrorism deaths in Israel since 1920 and 2,178 since the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza (the Occupied Palestinian Territories) and the Golan Heights (Syria) in 1967.
5. Palestinians killed from September 2000-February 2005 total 4,009
Quote: “Since the outbreak of the Palestinian uprising (Intifada) in September 2000, through February 2005, 4,009 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli occupation forces” (“4,009 Palestinians killed and more than 44,500 wounded by Israelis from September 2000 to February 2005, PNIC [Palestinian National Information Centre] Report”, Al-Jazeerah, March 2005; see: http://www.aljazeerah.info/Human%20price%20of%20the%20occupation/human_price_of_the_israeli_occup.htm )
6. Palestinians killed by Israeli occupation forces from September 2000 total 5,144
From the above information, we can that estimate that, as of April 2006, a further 1,135 Palestinians have been killed and 12,594 wounded since February 2005 and that a total of 5,144 Palestinians have been killed (including an estimated 952 children) and 57,100 have been wounded since September 2000
7. Post-1967 avoidable mortality and under-5 infant mortality in the Occupied Palestinian Territories total 0.3 and 0.2 million, respectively
Avoidable mortality (technically, excess mortality) is the difference between the actual deaths in a country and the deaths expected for a peaceful, decently-run country with the same demographics (see: http://globalavoidablemortality.blogspot.com/ ). Post-1967 avoidable mortality (excess mortality) in the Occupied Palestinian Territories totals 300,000 and the post-1967 under-5 infant mortality 183,000 (of which about 90% was avoidable) (estimated from UN Population Division data; see: http://esa.un.org/unpp/ ). The “annual under-5 infant mortality” (expressed as a percentage of the under-5 infant population) is 0.51% (Occupied Palestinian Territories) as compared to 0.12% (Israel) (2003 figures; see: http://esa.un.org/unpp/ and the latest UNICEF reports: http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/index.html ).
Professor Peter Singer, formerly at Monash University Melbourne, and now Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University in the US, has been widely acclaimed as the most influential living philosopher (see: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/323/7318/940 ) and has generated enormous controversy over his advocacy of “active”, painless, non-voluntary euthanasia for severely disabled infants. However his comments over “passive euthanasia” are relevant to “passive genocide” by Occupiers such as the Israelis in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the US-led Coalition in Occupied Iraq and Afghanistan: “Doctors who deliberately leave a baby to die when they have the awareness, the ability, and the opportunity to save the baby’s life, are just as morally responsible for the death as they would be if they had brought it about by a deliberate positive action” (H. Kuhse & P. Singer, Should the Baby Live? The Problem of Handicapped Infants, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1985, pp84-85).
Professor Peter Singer has further stated the following moral generality “We are responsible not only for what we do but also for what we could have prevented … We could consider the consequences of what we do and what we decide not to do” (P. Singer, Writings on an Ethical Life, Ecco Press, New York, 2000, ppxv-xvi; see: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s1445960.htm ).
The 1949 Geneva Conventions relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (see: (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm )
are explicit in demanding that the Occupier does everything “to the fullest extent of the means available to it” to preserve the health and life of its conquered subjects:
“Article 55. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring the food and medical supplies of the population; it should, in particular, bring in the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate …
Article 56. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring and maintaining , with the cooperation of the national and local authorities, the medical and hospital establishments and services, public health and hygiene in the occupied territory, with particular reference to the adoption and application of the prophylactic and preventive measures necessary to combat the spread of contagious diseases and epidemics. Medical personnel of all categories shall be allowed to carry out their duties …”
Whether a child dies violently (from bombs or bullets) or dies non-violently (from deprivation or malnourishmnet-exacerbated disease), the end result is the same and the culpability the same. The Ruler is responsible for the Ruled, the Occupier is responsible for the Occupied subjects.
Israel - a prosperous, liberal democracy with a population extremely well aware from the Jewish Holocaust of the horrendous consequences of racism and human rights abuse - has FAILED to meet its obligations under the 1949 Geneva Conventions (see: (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm ) and has also FAILED near-comprehensively in relation to the 1989 Convention on the Rights of the Child (see: http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/pdf/crc.pdf ), most notably and fundamentally with respect to Article #6: “1. States Parties recognize that every child has the inherent right to life. 2. States Parties shall ensure to the maximum extent possible the survival and development of the child.”
This awful situation does NOT have to continue. All sensible, humane Jews and Arabs want peace. Thus IMMEDIATE implementation of an Interim Peace Plan can effect Peace with Justice NOW . Such an Interim Peace Plan for IMMEDIATE implementation could involve the following: 2 states; 1967 borders; joint provision of airport-style total security throughout the Holy Land; interim defence provision by Israel alone (Israel would probably accept nothing less); bigotry, racism and incitement made illegal; reconciliation; all human rights guaranteed for all; and secure access for ALL to ALL of the Holy Land.
posted by Dr Gideon Polya @ 11:17 PM
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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All these people killed and still you have no clue why.
You'll never get a clue by using the mundane method.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
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At 960 posts, you'd think you guys were shouting over each other's heads about rap-bolting or Bush or something.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
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"Philo, we're still waiting for support for your 2,000,000 number."
And waiting.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:48pm PT
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Warfare was evolving into a strategical endeavor. Seizing the enemy's resources, etc. The cold war was most certainly a war. Countries like Russia will always play these chess games with us. Moving "strategic" bombers to Venezuela. The rest of the world fights wars of attrition. Wars of counter insurgency which we are NOT prepred to fight either in equipment, training or on the homefront. The simple answer to why there is fighting in Gaza is because neither side has killed enough of the opposition. I do give Israel credit because they tried using rubber bullets and talking even if they weren't saying the things the palestinians wanted to hear
.
"The name "Palestine" comes from the Philistine people. The Philistines (whose name is understood to mean "invaders" in Hebrew) occupied the southern coast of the region disappearing as a distinct group by the Assyrian period. What is possibly the earliest mention of them occurs in Egyptian texts which record a people called the Peleset, one of the Sea Peoples who invaded Egypt in Ramesses III's reign." Abraham gave the land to his people. Exactly who are HIS people? Who descended from Abraham? The Jews or the Arabs? If you know the answer to that then tell me why you think religion has anything to do with the conflict.
Lets say Isreal declares Gaza as a Canaanite, oops I meant palestinian state. What then? Where are they going to work? Where are they going to get their electricity? Hamas doesn't want peace with Isreal. They want them gone. Period. They just have a stupid way of trying to accomplish it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 12, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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This belongs on all three threads.
Hamas Background Brief no. 1: Extermination of Jews
http://newsblaze.com/story/20090104145154zzzz.nb/topstory.html
By Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook
TO UNDERSTAND the causes of the Gaza conflict, it is essential to understand the Hamas ideology. Hamas presents itself as an Islamic supremacist movement. Its charter opens with a quote from the Quran: "You [Islamic nation] are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind." [3: 110] However, whereas many religions and cultures believe that their own traditions represent messages of truth, Hamas believes that this supremacy of Islam obligates them to commit genocide, literally to exterminate millions of people who have different beliefs, including the Jews.
The following are some recent examples of Hamas defining this ideology of genocide, as it applies to Jews:
1- Quran condemns Jews to extermination
"The Meccan [Quran] chapter entitled 'Jews' or 'Children of Israel' is remarkable... It's about today's Jews, those of our century, and speaks only of extermination and digging graves... This chapter sentences the Jews to extermination before a single Jew existed on earth... Palestine's blessing is linked to destruction of the center of global corruption [Jews of Israel], the snake's head. When the snake's head of [global] corruption is cut off, here in Palestine, and when the octopus's [Jew's] tentacles are cut off around the world, the real blessing will come with the destruction of the Jews, here in Palestine, and it is one of the splendid real blessings in Palestine." [Palestinian cleric ,Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), July 13, 2008]
2- Jews to face yet another Holocaust
Headline: "Suffering by Fire is Jews' destiny in this world and next."
"... you will taste the punishment of Scorching Fire." [Quran 3:181]
"This [Quran] verse threatens the Jews with the punishment of Fire... the reason for the punishment of Fire is it is fitting retribution for what they have done... but the urgent question is, is it possible that they will have the punishment of Fire in this world, before the great punishment [of Fire in Hell] ... many of the [Islamic] religious leaders believe that the [Jews'] punishment of Fire is in this world, before the next world... therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews." [Sheikh Yunus Al-Astal, Hamas MP, in his regular column in Al-Rissala, (Hamas weekly) March 13, 2008]
It is important to note that the Hamas MP switched words in the last sentence, from the word he used throughout, "harik", which means "fire", to "mahraka" a word from the same root, that is used by Arabic speakers to mean "holocaust."
3 - Muhammad's promise: Jews will be killed
"Regarding the Jews, our business with them is only through bombs and guns... the prophet [Muhammad] promised that we will fight you, with Allah's help, until the tree and stone say: "Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
[Nizar Rayan, Hamas religious and military leader, Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), Jan. 1, 2009. Note: Rayan was killed on Jan. 2, 2009]
4 - Extermination of Jews - good for humanity
In an article promoting the continued use of suicide terror in the official Hamas newspaper:
"We find more than one condemnation and denunciation of the resistance operations and bombings [suicide attacks], carried out by Hamas and the Palestinian resistance branches... [Eventually] everyone will know that we did this only because our Lord commanded so: 'I did it not of my own accord' [Quran] and so that people will know that the extermination of Jews is good for the inhabitants of the worlds."
[Al-Rissala, (Hamas weekly) April 23, 2007]
5- Kill a Jew go to Heaven
A poster that Hamas posted on its old web site taught that killing a Jew is enough to grant the rewards of Heaven.
Text on Hamas poster: "I will knock on Heaven's doors with the skulls of Jews."
Axe is crashing through the word: "Jews."
[url on poster, Hamas terror wing: "Ezz Din Al Kassam"]
6- Resurrection dependent on Muslims killing Jews
Hamas goes even further in its religious packaging of genocide. Hamas teaches that the redemption of all of humanity, the anticipated Islamic "Hour" of Resurrection, will happen only when Muslims are killing Jews and the remaining Jews will be exposed by the trees and stones.
Hamas write in Article 7 of the Hamas Charter:
"Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet [Muhammad] said: 'The time (of Resurrection) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!'"
[Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6985]
7- Resurrection dependent on Muslims killing Jews
The Hamas belief that Jews must be killed for redemption to occur is a repeating theme of religious leaders on Palestinian Authority (Fatah) and Hamas TV. The following is one example:
"'The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh, Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!' We must remind our Arab and Muslim nation, its leaders and people, its scholars and students, remind them that Palestine and the Al Aqsa mosque will not be liberated through summits nor by international resolutions, but it will be liberated through the rifle."
[Hamas Spokesman, Dr. Ismail Radwan, PA TV, March 30, 2007]
Conclusion:
Given this Hamas ideology of genocide, the essential problem with Hamas is not the missiles and rockets it showers on Israel, but the core belief that killing Jews is a prerequisite to redemption. Hamas's ongoing attempts to kill Jews, which have led to the current Gaza War, are a symptom of the far deeper problem -- the ideology teaching that Allah demands the extermination of Jews.
Israel and the West must create a strategy not only to destroy the terror infrastructures of Hamas, but to ultimately ensure that Jews and the world are safe from this ideology and its consequences.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 12, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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"Largo - agreed. Problem is we ARE planning a scale up in Afghanistan."
Even money that we'll never see this come to pass with the Obama administration.
Where the hell will the money come from? When are people going to wake up to the fact that the country is far too much financial trouble to be policing other countries who do not pose an immediate threat to our nation or our interests. Pissing away billions of dollars we don't have, in any kind of military campaign, is totally insane.
My state of California is basically broke, and is considering issuing IOUs as tax refunds. The federal gov. can't be much better off. So who's talking about "scaling up in Afghanistan" if not folks who are delusional, moronic, or mad.
What do people thing this is, 1965? Sooner or later we've got to accept that for the immdediate future, our job as the world's mobile muscle is absolutely over.
JL
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 12, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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I'd take that bet and double it. It's already in the works. The Obama admin is hell bent on proving success in Afghanistan from what I have heard from all sources. I guess they will just print the money. I have heard that key officials in the new admin have already been in contact with China asking them to forgive whats left of the war debt and to loan us money. Thats where our "stimulus" checks came from too. I'm for the gov taking a realistic look at our economy and coming up with a real life strategy but that isn't going to happen. We just keep spending trillions of dollars on wars, automakers, banks, etc. Hasn't done a thing for me.
"if not folks who are delusional, moronic, or mad." Thats funny to me. Am I the only one who heard Obama talk about re-allocating troops to Afthanistan? Going back to who we vote for. It has nothing to do with change, ethnic group, or economy because the pres really doesn't decide the budget. The main role of the CIC is to protect our national interests abroad. His admin has already set the plan in motion to send my son to Afghanistan because thats what he believes he needs to do and thats exactly what he said he would do before he was elected.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 12, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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I believe that some U.S. troops may have already been transferred to Afghanistan, increasing the numbers there. It is often mentioned in the news media here, and if wanted I'll find a reliable source. But the general gist is that the U.S. is moving troops to Afghanistan, to try to take care of business left unfinished there - and probably be a more immediate presence vis-a-vis Pakistan. Many will be in the southern and central provinces, which bear the brunt of the fighting.
The Canadian context is that many of your troops are supposed to end up in Kandahar, where our contingent is. Canada has had several thousand troops in Afghanistan for some years, in support of NATO forces. (And maybe as a good reason to not be available for Iraq.) 107 have died so far. Some NATO countries only allow their contingents to go to lower-risk areas. So we feel it will take some pressure off.
Your new government is already pressing our government to increase the length of Canada's commitment to Afghanistan past 2011, and to increase the number of our troops there.
It might be interesting to ferret out the actual number of combat troops the U.S. government admits to having in Afghanistan.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 12, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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""Largo - agreed. Problem is we ARE planning a scale up in Afghanistan.""
Even money that we'll never see this come to pass with the Obama administration.... So who's talking about "scaling up in Afghanistan" if not folks who are delusional, moronic, or mad."
It's folks like Obama who are talking about scaling up in Afghanistan.
Obama's Administration Will Fully Support Troops In Afghan, Biden Says
January 11, 2009 4:24 p.m. EST
AHN Staff
Kabul, Afghanistan (AHN) - The U.S. Vice President-elect Joe Biden said Sunday that the incoming administration will continue to support American forces fighting in Afghanistan during his surprise visit to the country's southern region on Sunday.
On the second day of his trip, Joe Biden has pledged long-term American support for Afghanistan as President-elect Barack Obama has indicated in the past that the government will reduce its presence in Iraq and increase in Afghanistan.
"I am very interested in what becomes of this region because it affects us all," Biden said during his visit to Kandahar province.
Obama has plans to increase American presence by sending up to 30,000 additional security personnel to Afghanistan in 2009. Currently, there are around 32,000 American troops in the country serving alongside another 32,000 NATO-led and coalition troops.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 12, 2009 - 01:57am PT
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We can't afford to lose the war in Afghanistan and turn it back over to the Taliban and Al Qaeda. That would be a disaster, for us and the Afghan people (especially females). The Taliban is trouble: they have a track record of trouble.
There are some shithole places in the world that legitimately do need some military attention.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 12, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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Again, who chooses which war is just. The Taliban is bad but the Baath party is o.k.?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 12, 2009 - 09:03am PT
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jbar: "Who descended from Abraham? The Jews or the Arabs? If you know the answer to that then tell me why you think religion has anything to do with the conflict."
Tricky question. Depends on what you mean by "has anything to do with." It has everything to do with it as far as propaganda and rationalizations go, on both sides.
Remains of ancient "Philistine" cities show a typically high degree of eastern Mediterranean culture, apparently right up until "God's chosen people" showed up and murdered everybody. And Islam's founder just recapitulated Abraham's original will to power, which is probably traceable to a particular genetic marker that makes people hear voices that aren't really there. Add a little extra imagination and a strong arm and you've got yourself a big batch of intolerant monotheism.
Lets say Isreal declares Gaza as a Canaanite, oops I meant palestinian state. What then? Where are they going to work? Where are they going to get their electricity? Hamas doesn't want peace with Isreal. They want them gone. Period. They just have a stupid way of trying to accomplish it.
One of those "if you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail" deals.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 12, 2009 - 09:41am PT
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"Again, who chooses which war is just. The Taliban is bad but the Baath party is o.k.? "
Prior to 2001, the Taliban gave safe harbor to a group who tried to attack us (and did so successfully). They were using camps in that country, with the Taliban's blessing, to test chemical weapons and conduct training to attack us again. The Taliban were in bed with these folks and used
Bye-bye Taliban.
I never did think the Iraq War was a good idea.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 12, 2009 - 11:25am PT
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"Why do you all on the left back this group? "
Too piss you off and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Jan 12, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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Madrid, Spain
Carlos Alberto Montaner is a Cuban-born writer, journalist, and former professor. He is one of the most influential and widely-read columnists in the Spanish-language media, syndicated in dozens of publications in Latin America, Spain and the United States.
Gaza's True 'Disproportion'
Israelis are being accused of suffering too few casualties in their confrontation with the Hamas terrorists. Those who reason thus usually speak the words "disproportion" or "asymmetry" in an indignant tone. While at this writing close to a thousand Arab Palestinians have died or been wounded as a result of the bombings, the Israeli losses amount to just over a dozen.
Tel Aviv's critics -- from whom an anti-Semitic stench often rises -- do not say whether Israel should increase its quota of cadavers or if it must reduce the Arabs' quota to achieve the reasonable proportion of blood that will soothe the peculiar itch for parity that afflicts them. Nor do they specify the morally permissible number of casualties to end the rain of rockets that for years has been constantly falling on the heads of Israeli civilians.
This demand for "proportionality" can only be called surprising. Until this conflict began, history books everywhere always expressed great satisfaction and a certain chauvinistic pride when a nation's army inflicted on the enemy a large number of casualties, vis-à-vis a trifling price paid by "our boys." Israel is the only country expected to behave differently and, in fact, it does; I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory. Of course, in this it behaves asymmetrically, because the Hamas terrorists, forever eager to cause the greatest damage possible, never announce when or where they will launch their rockets against Israel's civilian population.
In turn, Israel has not the slightest interest in causing casualties. All it wants is to stop Hamas' attacks the only way it can: by eliminating the terrorists and destroying their arsenals. There's no other way to deal with them. Hamas is not a political organization with which agreements can be reached, but a fanatical gang intent on wiping Israel off the map. To achieve this objective, its members are even willing to turn their own children into human bombs, just to kill the hated Jews.
Here's another very important asymmetry. The Jews build underground shelters in all houses near the border; they close the schools and hide the children at the least sign of danger; they treat the death of a single soldier as a national tragedy; they do everything possible to rescue their prisoners, and protect the civilian population from the consequences of war. In contrast, the authorities in Gaza, drunk with violence, fire their machine guns irresponsibly into the air to express joy or grief (causing numerous injuries), do not hesitate to install their headquarters or hide their guns in schools, mosques or hospitals, use human shields to protect themselves, turn to suicidal terrorists and reward the families of such "martyrs" with money.
One week before Hamas broke the truce and stepped up its rocket attacks against the Jewish state (the spark that set off this conflict), I was in Israel, where I had been invited to deliver a lecture at the University of Tel Aviv. As part of the contacts organized by my hosts, I visited the Wolfson Medical Center to learn about the program "Save a Child's Heart." I was very moved. It is a foundation devoted to providing heart surgery for very poor children, most of them from the Arab world. As it happened, I witnessed the hurried arrival of a tiny 5-day-old girl, who had to be operated on at once to keep her from dying. She was brought in by her mother, a woman in a black head covering that allowed me to see only her tear-filled eyes, and her husband, a small, bearded man who watched with amazement the indescribable kindness with which a group of doctors and nurses treated the baby. The family came from Gaza.
Since the war erupted, I have asked myself constantly what became of them all.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 12, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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It's incredible how human nature sleeps in denial so comfortably that we can easily see the faults and evil in "the other side" and none on our own.
Sadly, technology has a different kind of blindness. It keeps getting more powerful but doesn't care how it's used.
So if our whole basic humanity doesn't reform in the next 10 or 20 years, we're all going to kill each other. Period.
Funny how this vortex of conflict in the mid-east consumes so much emotion. Obviously far more people have died in Iraq and more than that in Rwanda. All kinds of unjustified wholesale slaughter going on, perpetrated by those those never expect to pay for their killings nor even consider their justifications outside of mere rationalization. (it's easy to say it was righteous to invade Iraq cause Saddam (our man) was a bad man. Would you say that if you were raised Iraqi and then welcome the foreign invaders with strange values and who bombed your house?)
Personally, I think each individual had better mind their lives and actions carefully as a reckoning will be upon us sooner or later.
Peace
karl
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jan 12, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
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"Seems that all of you have finally concurred with my theory of "Clash of Civilizations", this is a religious war. Led by Saudi Wahhabi clerics, Iranian Mullahs, Hamas and Hezbollah on one side and the Judeo/Christian world on the other, not much different that Saladin and Richard."
Agreed. Except for the Judeo/Christian part. The US should let Israel fight or die by its own hands. Its their (i.e., your) f*#ked up clash, not ours. Bush fell for it.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Jan 12, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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I'm just going to ask if the Middle East was arguably the center of science and knowledge 500 years ago what happened?
Second, read Ayaan Ali's Infidel and Manji's The Trouble With Islam Today
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 12, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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From
"...The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions.
An example of this process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp.
Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army "revealed" that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.
Later the official liar claimed that "our soldiers were shot at from inside the school". Barely a day passed before the army had to admit to UN personnel that that was a lie, too. Nobody had shot from inside the school, no Hamas fighters were inside the school, which was full of terrified refugees.
But the admission made hardly any difference anymore. By that time, the Israeli public was completely convinced that "they shot from inside the school", and TV announcers stated this as a simple fact..."
"NEARLY SEVENTY YEARS ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called "the Red Army" held the millions of the town's inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.
Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.
This is the description that would now appear in the history books - if the Germans had won the war."
from
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/12-4
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 12, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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A continuation of the last article
"The real aim (apart from gaining seats in the coming elections) is to terminate the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the imagination of the planners, Hamas is an invader which has gained control of a foreign country. The reality is, of course, entirely different.
The Hamas movement won the majority of the votes in the eminently democratic elections that took place in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip. It won because the Palestinians had come to the conclusion that Fatah's peaceful approach had gained precisely nothing from Israel - neither a freeze of the settlements, nor release of the prisoners, nor any significant steps toward ending the occupation and creating the Palestinian state. Hamas is deeply rooted in the population - not only as a resistance movement fighting the foreign occupier, like the Irgun and the Stern Group in the past - but also as a political and religious body that provides social, educational and medical services.
From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not "hide behind the population", the population views them as their only defenders.
Therefore, the whole operation is based on erroneous assumptions. Turning life into living hell does not cause the population to rise up against Hamas, but on the contrary, it unites behind Hamas and reinforces its determination not to surrender. The population of Leningrad did not rise up against Stalin, any more than the Londoners rose up against Churchill."
It's a good point. We didn't turn away from Bush after 9-11 either. Attacking a people never makes them abandon their government or country.
Peace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 12, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
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I'm just going to ask if the Middle East was arguably the center of science and knowledge 500 years ago what happened?
It was untill the remnants of Potolemy's library (that was then at Byzantium) were destroyed by a guy named Umar in 642 with the imfamous pronouncement. "They will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous."
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 12, 2009 - 07:02pm PT
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Middle East was arguably the center of science and knowledge 500 years ago ....
No way ho-say. not the Middle East, the far east and still is.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 12, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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Three cheers for Karl.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 12, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
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Skip, this is not a war of two armies of relative parity on a level field of battle. This is the fourth most powerful military backed by the world's most powerful military besieging bombing and invading one and a half million prisoners. Name me one other war where one side was tapped inside a wall. Compared to a true two sided war this is akin to putting down a prison riot.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 12, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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"Compared to a true two sided war this is akin to putting down a prison riot. "
Ain't that the truth, Hamas is a bunch of thugs for the most part. Also, wouldn't it be suicidal for 'prisoners' to fire at the better-armed 'guards'? Not very smart.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 12, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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"Compared to a true two sided war this is akin to putting down a prison riot."
A prison which has been run by the inmates for the last two year and where the inmates are randomly raining high-explosive down on the rest of the surrounding town.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 12, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
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Ahhh the good ol days of a little over seven years ago at the early daze of the Bush Debacle.
The Jenin Refugee Camp Massacre
During the brutal Israeli military campaign in the Palestinian territory of the West Bank during the period of March 29-April 13, 2002, the Israeli occupation forces committed a massacre in which hundreds of Palestinians were killed. Initial estimates were more than 500 children, women, and men. The following are some of the pictures of the destruction and corpses of Palestinians which remained after Israeli forces had evacuated many other corpses and buried them in Israel (in the numbered "enemy" cemetery) in an attempt to hide the actual number of victims in the refugee camp. The UN Security Council formed a Committee to investigate the massacre but the Israeli government refused to cooperate with the Committee unless it accepts Israeli conditions. Most important for Israel was that the Committee should grant immunity from self-incrimination for Israelis who would be investigated. Israel also demanded that the Committee should not offer recommendations or reach conclusions about the massacre. Upon that Israeli rejection of cooperation with the Committee, the UN Secretary-General, Kofi Anan, dissolved the Committee before starting its work. Thus, the Israeli war criminals are still free to commit more war crimes, atrocities, and human rights violations against the Palestinian people, without being held accountable for their actions.
Here is a nice excerpt.
JENIN: Israeli Army bulldozer driver Moshe Nissim, also known as “Kurdi Bear,” did enjoy his work in Jenin camp, fortified by an arsenal of alcohol.
First published in the popular Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot and since reprinted on the website of the Israeli peace group Gush Shalom, his testimony gives a version of events that has since largely fallen off the country’s conscience.
He left his own at the door to Jenin.
“They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come, but I gave no one a chance. I didn’t wait. I didn’t give one blow, and wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring it down as fast as possible. I wanted to get to the other houses. To get as many as possible,” he recounts. “I didn’t give a damn about the Palestinians, but I didn’t just ruin with no reason. It was all under orders.”
and another.
When Palestinian militants on Nov. 15, 2002, killed 12 Israelis in occupied Hebron, Israeli government spokesmen instantly dubbed it “the Sabbath massacre,” casting it as a terror attack on Jewish settlers worshipping at the city’s Ibrahimi mosque and synagogue complex. It soon emerged that all of those killed were soldiers and settler paramilitaries, but not before fierce denunciations from UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and Pope John Paul II had cast the attack in infamy on major international news networks.
The condemnations were never retracted. “This is the double standard that is usually voiced by the Israelis, and even the Americans,” Salameh says.
On Oct. 14, the Israeli army razed 115 houses and damaged an equal number in the town of Rafah in southern Gaza, rendering some 1,240 people homeless and culminating in a series of increasingly brutal mass demolitions along the path of Israel’s “Separation Fence.”
What a way to build a ... "FENCE"
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 12, 2009 - 08:50pm PT
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Which foreign-aid recipient is the only one allowed to receive its aid in a lump sum and which routinely invests part of it in U.S. Treasuries so that taxpayers pay them interest on the taxpayers' gift?
Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, November 2008, pages 10-11
Congress Watch
A Conservative Estimate of Total Direct U.S. Aid to Israel: Almost $114 Billion
By Shirl McArthur
TABLE 1: Direct U.S. Aid to Israel (millions of dollars)
Year Total Military
Grant
Economic
Grant Immigrant ASHA All Other
1949-1996 68,030.9 29,014.9 23,122.4 868.9 121.4 14,903.3
1997 3,132.1 1,800.0 1,200.0 80.0 2.1 50.0
1998 3,080.0 1,800.0 1,200.0 80.0 ? ?
1999 3,010.0 1,860.0 1,080.0 70.0 ? ?
2000 4,131.85 3,120.0 949.1 60.0 2.75 ?
2001 2,876.05 1,975.6 838.2 60.0 2.25 ?
2002 2,850.65 2,040.0 720.0 60.0 2.65 28.0
2003 3,745.15 3,086.4 596.1 59.6 3.05 ?
2004 2,687.25 2,147.3 477.2 49.7 3.15 9.9
2005 2,612.15 2,202.2 357.0 50.0 2.95 ?
2006 2,534.53 2,257.0 237.0 40.0 ? .53
2007 2,500.24 2,340.0 120.0 40.0 ? .24
2008 2,423.8 2,380.6 0.0 39.7 3.0 .5
Total 103,614.67 56,024.0 30,897.0 1,557.9 143.3 14,992.47
Notes: FY 2000 military grants include $1.2 billion for the Wye agreement and $1.92 billion in annual military aid. FY 2003 military aid included $1 billion from the supplemental appropriations bill. The economic grant was earmarked for $960 million for FY 2000 but was reduced to meet the 0.38% rescission. Final amounts for FY 2003 are reduced by 0.65% mandated rescission, the amounts for FY 2004 are reduced by 0.59%, and the amounts for FY 2008 are reduced by .81%.
Sources: CRS Report RL33222: U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel, updated Jan. 2, 2008, plus the FY ’08 omnibus appropriations bill, H.R. 2764.
This estimate of total U.S. direct aid to Israel updates the estimate given in the July 2006 issue of the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs. It is an estimate because arriving at an exact figure is not possible, since parts of U.S. aid to Israel are a) buried in the budgets of various U.S. agencies, mostly that of the Defense Department (DOD), or b) in a form not easily quantifiable, such as the early disbursement of aid, giving Israel a direct benefit in interest income and the U.S. Treasury a corresponding loss. Given these caveats, our current estimate of cumulative total direct aid to Israel is $113.8554 billion.
It must be emphasized that this analysis is a conservative, defensible accounting of U.S. direct aid to Israel, NOT of Israel’s cost to the U.S. or the American taxpayer, nor of the benefits to Israel of U.S. aid. The distinction is important, because the indirect or consequential costs suffered by the U.S. as a result of its blind support for Israel exceed by many times the substantial amount of direct aid to Israel. (See, for example, the late Thomas R. Stauffer’s article in the June 2003 Washington Report, “The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion.”)
Especially, this computation does not include the costs resulting from the invasion and occupation of Iraq—hundreds of billions of dollars, 4,000-plus U.S. and allied fatalities, untold tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths, and many thousands of other U.S., allied, and Iraqi casualties—which is almost universally believed in the Arab world to have been undertaken for the benefit of Israel. Among other “indirect or consequential” costs would be the costs of U.S. unilateral economic sanctions on Iran, Iraq, Libya and Syria, the costs to U.S. manufacturers of the Arab boycott, and the costs to U.S. companies and consumers of the 1973 Arab oil embargo and consequent and subsequent soaring oil prices partially as a result of U.S. support for Israel.
Among the real benefits to Israel that are not direct costs to the U.S. taxpayer are the early cash transfer of economic and military aid, in-country spending of a portion of military aid, and loan guarantees. The U.S. gives Israel all of its economic and military aid directly in cash during the first month of the fiscal year, with no accounting required of how the funds are used. Also, in contrast with other countries receiving military aid, who must purchase through the DOD, Israel deals directly with the U.S. companies, with no DOD review. Furthermore, Israel is allowed to spend 26.3 percent of each year’s military aid in Israel (no other recipient of U.S. military aid gets this benefit), which has resulted in an increasingly sophisticated Israeli defense industry. As a result, Israel has become a major world arms exporter; the Congressional Research Service (CRS) reports that in 2006 Israel was the world’s ninth leading supplier of arms worldwide, earning $4.4 billion from defense sales.
Another benefit to Israel are U.S. government loan guarantees. The major loan guarantees have been $600 million for housing between 1972 and 1990; $9.2 billion for Soviet Jewish resettlement between 1992 and 1997; about $5 billion for refinancing military loans commercially; and $9 billion in loan guarantees authorized in FY ’03 and extended to FY ’10. Of that $9 billion, CRS reports that Israel has drawn $4.1 billion through FY ’07. These loans have not—yet—cost the U.S. any money; they are listed on the Treasury Department’s books as “contingent liabilities,” which would be liabilities to the U.S. should Israel default. However, they have been of substantial, tangible benefit to Israel, because they enable Israel to borrow commercially at special terms and favorable interest rates.
Components of Israel Aid
Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. aid since World War II (not counting the huge sums being spent in Iraq). The $3 billion or so per year that Israel receives from the U.S. amounts to about $500 per Israeli. Most of this money is earmarked in the annual Foreign Operations (foreign aid) appropriations bills, with the three major items being military grants (Foreign Military Financing, or FMF), economic grants (Economic Support Funds, or ESF), and “migration and refugee assistance.” (Refugee assistance originally was intended to help Israel absorb Jewish refugees from the Soviet Union, but this was expanded in 1985 to include all refugees resettling in Israel. In fact, Israel doesn’t differentiate between refugees and other immigrants, so this money is used for all immigrants to Israel.)
Not earmarked but also included in congresssional appropriations bills is Israel’s portion of grants for American Schools and Hospitals Abroad (ASHA) and monies buried in the appropriations for other departments or agencies. These are mostly for so-called “U.S.-Israeli cooperative programs” in defense, agriculture, science, and hi-tech industries.
Before 1998, Israel received annually $1.8 billion in military grants and $1.2 billion in economic grants. Then, beginning in FY ‘99, the two countries agreed to reduce economic grants to Israel by $120 million and increase military grants by $60 million annually over 10 years. FY ’08 is the last year of that agreement, with military grants reaching $2.4 billion (reduced by an across-the-board rescission), and zero economic grants. Then, in August 2007, U.S. and Israeli officials signed a memorandum of understanding for a new 10-year, $30 billion aid package whereby FMF will gradually increase, beginning with $2.55 billion in FY ’09, and average $3 billion per year over the 10-year period.
Methodology
TABLE 2: Foreign Aid and DOD Appropriations
Legislation Since FY 2004
Basic Documents Conference Report Public Law
FY '04 Defense H.R. 2658 H.Rept. 108-283 P.L. 108-87
Omnibus H.R. 2673 H.Rept. 108-401 P.L. 108-199
FY '05 Defense H.R. 4613 H.Rept. 108-662 P.L. 108-287
Omnibus H.R. 4818 H.Rept. 108-792 P.L. 108-447
FY '06 Defense H.R. 2863 H.Rept. 109-359 P.L. 109-148
Foreign Aid H.R. 3057 H.Rept. 109-265 P.L. 109-102
FY '07 Defense H.R. 5631 H.Rept. 109-676 P.L. 109-289
Foreign Aid H.J.Res. 20 P.L. 110-5
FY '08 Defense H.R. 3222 H.Rept. 110-434 P.L. 110-116
Omnibus H.R. 2764 H.Rept. 110-497 P.L. 110-161
Notes: H.R.=House Resolution; S.=Senate Resolution; H.Rept.=House Report; the “public law” is the final, binding version, as signed by the president. In FY ’04, ’05, and ’08 defense was passed separately and foreign aid was included in the consolidated or “omnibus” bill. In FY ’07 defense was passed separately and foreign aid was included in the continuing resolution, H.J. Res. 20, which continued ’07 appropriations at the ’06 level with some exceptions—including, of course, for Israel.
As with previous Washington Report estimates of U.S. aid to Israel, this analysis is based on the annual CRS report, U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel, which uses available and verifiable numbers, primarily from the foreign operations appropriations bills. Although the CRS report does include such things as the old food for peace program, the $1.2 billion from the Wye agreement, the $1 billion in FMF included in the FY ’03 Emergency Supplemental appropriations bill, the subsidy for “refugee resettlement,” and money from the ASHA account, it does not include money from the DOD and other agencies. Nor does it include estimated interest on the early disbursement of aid.
The January 2008 CRS report on aid to Israel shows a total of $101.1908 billion through FY ’07. Table 1, on the previous page, is drawn from the summary table of that report, plus $2.4238 billion from the FY ’08 omnibus appropriations bill and estimates for ASHA and “other” amounts in FY ’08, for a total of $103.6147 billion through FY ’08.
To that has been added $10.2407 billion, as detailed below, for a grand total of $113.8554 billion.
Estimated Amounts Not Included in Table 1: $10.2407 Billion
Defense Department Funds: $7.694 Billion. For previous estimates, a search going back several years was able to identify $6.794 billion from the DOD to Israel through FY ‘06. Adding $450 million from the FY ’07 DOD appropriations and $450 million from the ’08 appropriations gives a total of $7.694 billion. (The FY ’08 appropriations bill earmarks $155.6 million for Israel. However, AIPAC’s Web site reported that the total for earmarked and non-earmarked programs was $450 million—and who would know better than the Israel lobby itself?)
The military aid from the DOD budget is mostly for specific projects. The largest items have been the canceled Lavi attack fighter project, the completed Merkava tank, the ongoing Arrow anti-missile missile project, and several other anti-missile systems, most recently the “David’s Sling” short-range missile defense system. Haaretz reported in June that a senior U.S. defense official has said the U.S. will support and help Israel’s development of the advanced Arrow 3 designed to intercept advanced ballistic missiles. The fact that the U.S. military was not interested in the Lavi or the Merkava for its own use and has said the same thing about the Arrow and the other anti-missile projects would seem to jettison the argument that these are “joint defense projects.” The FY ‘01 appropriations bill also gave Israel a grant of $700 million worth of military equipment, to be drawn down from stocks in Western Europe, and the FY ’05 defense appropriations bill includes a provision authorizing the DOD to transfer an unspecified amount of “surplus” military items from inventory to Israel. In addition, since 1988 Israel has been designated a “major non-NATO ally,” giving it access to U.S. weapons systems at lower prices, and preferential treatment in bidding for U.S. defense contracts.
Interest: $2.089 Billion. Israel receives its U.S. economic and military aid in a lump sum within one month of the new fiscal year or the passage of the appropriations act. Applying one-half of the prevailing interest rate to the aid for each year (on the assumption that the aid monies are drawn down over the course of the year), the July 2006 estimate arrived at a total of $1.991 billion through FY ’06. To that, using an interest rate of 4 percent, is added $50 million for FY ’07 and $48 million for FY ’08, for a cumulative total of $2.089 billion through FY ’08.
Other Grants and Endowments: $457.7 Million. The July 2006 report included $456.7 million in U.S. grants and endowments to U.S.-Israeli scientific and business cooperation organizations. The two largest are the BIRD (Israel-U.S. Binational Research & Development) Foundation and the BARD (Binational Agriculture and Research and Development) Fund. While these are mostly self-sustaining, the BARD Fund gets about $500,000 a year from the Agriculture Department. Adding $0.5 million for each of FY ’07 and ‘08 to the ’06 total gives a new total of $0.457.7 billion.
For the convenience of those who wish to look up more details, citations for the foreign aid and DOD appropriations bills for the past five years are given in Table 2 above.
Shirl McArthur, a retired U.S. foreign service officer, is a consultant based in the Washington, DC area.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 12, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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Your recollection is as usual off. The death toll was unsuccessfully hidden by the IDF.
They mass buried in Jenin with bulldozers and helicoptered scores of corpses back to israel for mass burial there as well. Read the report.
I noticed the same US supplied specialized Caterpillar D9 dozers lined up with reservists waiting to storm Gaza. I bet there is a whole lot of work for dozer operators. They will have to do a better job hiding atrocities and war crimes this time!
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 12, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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1001!
F*#k yeah!
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Jan 12, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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So fattrad, by your reasoning the US is partners with Israel because some group put the two of you on the same column in some rant?
You are very controlled by them eh?
Choose your partners wisely and deal with your problems wisely. Choosing your partners as a result of a crazy guy's rant isn't smart at all.
Dealing with a threat as a sovereign nation would be smarter than aligning yourself with a nation that never has and never will have peace, and it is much smarter than everything else that has been going on.
What is wrong with securing your boarders over there on your half of earth and letting the hoodlum bombers bomb themselves on the other side? If you spend a few trillion dollars on training jet fighters or air marshals instead of blowing up other countries you wouldn't have 9/11 in the first place on two fronts: you wouldn't have created and trained guys like OBL and you would have shot down a few planes as they flew around in circles for hours before crashing into buildings.
Your Clash of Civilizations is a reactionary response to a lesser enemy, playing into the game, columns and rules that they set out.
Conduct yourself prudently and independently from the other guys mixed up in it and you will have less trouble. Create boarders for your nation leave the other guy's yard and you will have fewer trespassing into yours.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 12, 2009 - 10:06pm PT
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Hey war hawks bend over grab your ankles and lube your O rings this one's gonna hurt. The truth often does.
Who will save Israel from itself?
By Mark LeVine
The Israeli government's justifications for the war are being scrutinised [GALLO/GETTY]
One by one the justifications given by Israel for its latest war in Gaza are unravelling.
The argument that this is a purely defensive war, launched only after Hamas broke a six-month ceasefire has been challenged, not just by observers in the know such as Jimmy Carter, the former US president who helped facilitate the truce, but by centre-right Israeli intelligence think tanks.
The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, whose December 31 report titled "Six Months of the Lull Arrangement Intelligence Report," confirmed that the June 19 truce was only "sporadically violated, and then not by Hamas but instead by ... "rogue terrorist organisations".
Instead, "the escalation and erosion of the lull arrangement" occurred after Israel killed six Hamas members on November 4 without provocation and then placed the entire Strip under an even more intensive siege the next day.
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Watch our coverage of the war on GazaAccording to a joint Tel Aviv University-European University study, this fits a larger pattern in which Israeli violence has been responsible for ending 79 per cent of all lulls in violence since the outbreak of the second intifada, compared with only 8 per cent for Hamas and other Palestinian factions.
Indeed, the Israeli foreign ministry seems to realise that this argument is losing credibility.
During a conference call with half a dozen pro-Israel professors on Thursday, Asaf Shariv, the Consul General of Israel in New York, focused more on the importance of destroying the intricate tunnel system connecting Gaza to the Sinai.
He claimed that such tunnels were "as big as the Holland and Lincoln tunnels," and offered as proof the "fact" that lions and monkeys had been smuggled through them to a zoo in Gaza. In reality, the lions were two small cubs that were drugged, thrown in sacks, and dragged through a tunnel on their way to a private zoo.
Israel's self-image
The claim that Hamas will never accept the existence of Israel has proved equally misinformed, as Hamas leaders explicitly announce their intention to do just that in the pages of the Los Angeles Times or to any international leader or journalist who will meet with them.
With each new family, 10, 20 and 30 strong, buried under the rubble of a building in Gaza, the claim that the Israeli forces have gone out of their way to diminish civilian casualties - long a centre-piece of Israel's image as an enlightened and moral democracy - is falling apart.
Anyone with an internet connection can Google "Gaza humanitarian catastrophe" and find the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in the Occupied Territories and read the thousands of pages of evidence documenting the reality of the current fighting, and the long term siege on Gaza that preceded it.
The Red Cross, normally scrupulous in its unwillingness to single out parties to a conflict for criticism, sharply criticised Israel for preventing medical personnel from reaching wounded Palestinians, some of whom remained trapped for days, slowly starving and dying in the Gazan rubble amidst their dead relatives.
Meanwhile, the United Nations has flatly denied Israeli claims that Palestinian fighters were using the UNRWA school compound bombed on January 6, in which 40 civilians were killed, to launch attacks, and has challenged Israel to prove otherwise.
War crimes admission
Additionally, numerous flippant remarks by senior Israeli politicians and generals, including Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister, refusing to make a distinction between civilian people and institutions and fighters - "Hamas doesn't ... and neither should we" is how Livni puts it - are rightly being seen as admissions of war crimes.
Indeed, in reviewing statements by Israeli military planners leading up to the invasion, it is clear that there was a well thought out decision to go after Gaza's civilian infrastructure - and with it, civilians.
The following quote from an interview with Major-General Gadi Eisenkot that appeared in the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth in October, is telling:
"We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective these [the villages] are military bases," he said.
"This isn't a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorised."
Causing "immense damage and destruction" and considering entire villages "military bases" is absolutely prohibited under international law.
Eisenkot's description of this planning in light of what is now unfolding in Gaza is a clear admission of conspiracy and intent to commit war crimes, and when taken with the comments above, and numerous others, renders any argument by Israel that it has tried to protect civilians and is not engaging in disproportionate force unbelievable.
International laws violated
On the ground, the evidence mounts ever higher that Israel is systematically violating a host of international laws, including but not limited to Article 56 of the IV Hague Convention of 1907, the First Additional Protocol of the Geneva Convention, the Fourth Geneva Convention (more specifically known as the "Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949", the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, and the principles of Customary International Humanitarian Law.
None of this excuses or legitimises the firing of rockets or mortars by any Palestinian group at Israeli civilians and non-military targets.
As Richard Falk, the UN special rapporteur, declared in his most recent statement on Gaza: "It should be pointed out unambiguously that there is no legal (or moral) justification for firing rockets at civilian targets, and that such behavior is a violation of IHR, associated with the right to life, as well as constitutes a war crime."
By the same logic, however, Israel does not have the right to use such attacks as an excuse to launch an all-out assault on the entire population of Gaza.
In this context, even Israel's suffering from the constant barrage of rockets is hard to pay due attention to when the numbers of dead and wounded on each side are counted. Any sense of proportion is impossible to sustain with such a calculus.
'Rogue' state
Israeli commentators and scholars, self-described "loyal" Zionists who served proudly in the army in wars past, are now publicly describing their country, in the words of Oxford University professor Avi Shlaim, as a "rogue" and gangster" state led by "completely unscrupulous leaders".
Gazans inspect the damage after an air strike hit a mosque [GALLO/GETTY] Neve Gordon, a politics professor at Ben Gurion University, has declared that Israel's actions in Gaza are like "raising animals for slaughter on a farm" and represent a "bizarre new moral element" in warfare.
"The moral voice of restraint has been left behind ... Everything is permitted" against Palestinians, writes a disgusted Haaretz columnist, Gideon Levy.
Fellow Haaretz columnist and daughter of Holocaust survivors, Amira Haas writes of her late parents disgust at how Israeli leaders justified Israel's wars with a "language laundromat" aimed at redefining reality and Israel's moral compass. "Lucky my parents aren't alive to see this," she exclaimed.
Around the world people are beginning to compare Israel's attack on Gaza, which after the 2005 withdrawal of Israeli forces and settlers was turned literally into the world's largest prison, to the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto.
Extremist Muslims are using internet forums to collect names and addresses of prominent European Jews with the goal, it seems clear, of assassinating them in retaliation for Israel's actions in Gaza.
Al-Qaeda is attempting to exploit this crisis to gain a foothold in Gaza and Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria, as well as through attacking Jewish communities globally.
Iran's defiance of both Israel and its main sponsor, the US, is winning it increasing sympathy with each passing day.
Democratic values eroded
Inside Israel, the violence will continue to erode both democratic values in the Jewish community, and any acceptance of the Jewish state's legitimacy in the eyes of its Palestinian citizens.
And yet in the US - at least in Washington and in the offices of the mainstream Jewish organisations - the chorus of support for Israel's war on Gaza continues to sing in tight harmony with official Israeli policy, seemingly deaf to the fact that they have become so out of tune with the reality exploding around them.
At my university, UCI, where last summer Jewish and Muslim students organised a trip together through the occupied territories and Israel so they could see with their own eyes the realities there, old battle lines are being redrawn.
The Anteaters for Israel, the college pro-Israel group at the University of California, Irvine, sent out an urgent email to the community explaining that, "Over the past week, increasing amounts of evidence lead us to believe that Hamas is largely responsible for any alleged humanitarian crisis in Gaza".
I have no idea who the "us" is that is referred to in the appeal, although I am sure that the membership of that group is shrinking.
Indeed, one of the sad facts of this latest tragedy is that with each claim publicly refuted by facts on the ground, more and more Americans, including Jews, are refusing to trust the assertions of Israeli and American Jewish leaders.
Trap
Even worse, in the Arab/Muslim world, the horrific images pouring out of Gaza daily are allowing preachers and politicians to deploy well-worn yet still dangerous and inciteful stereotypes against Jews as they rally the masses against Israel - and through it - their own governments.
What is most frightening is that the most important of Israel's so-called friends, the US political establishment and the mainstream Jewish leadership, seem clueless to the devastating trap that Israel has led itself into - in good measure with their indulgence and even help.
It is one that threatens the country's existence far more than any Qassam rockets, with their 0.4 per cent kill rate; even more than the disastrous 2006 invasion of southern Lebanon, which by weakening Israel's deterrence capability in some measure made this war inevitable.
First, it is clear that Israel cannot destroy Hamas, it cannot stop the rockets unless it agrees to a truce that will go far to meeting the primary demand of Hamas - an end to the siege.
Merely by surviving (and it surely will survive) Hamas, like Hezbollah in 2006, will have won.
Support for the war remains high in Israel[GALLO/GETTY] Israel is succeeding in doing little more than creating another generation of Palestinians with hearts filled with rage and a need for revenge.
Second, Israel's main patron, the US, along with the conservative Arab autocracies and monarchies that are its only allies left in the Muslim world, are losing whatever crumbs of legitimacy they still had with their young and angry populations.
The weaker the US and its axis becomes in the Middle East, the more precarious becomes Israel's long-term security. Indeed, any chance that the US could convince the Muslim world to pressure Iran to give up its quest for nuclear weapons has been buried in Gaza.
Third, as Israel brutalises Palestinians, it brutalises its own people. You cannot occupy another people and engage in violence against them at this scale without doing even greater damage to your soul.
The high incidence of violent crimes committed by veterans returning from combat duty in Iraq is but one example of how the violence of occupation and war eat away at people's moral centre.
While in the US only a small fraction of the population participates in war; in Israel, most able-bodied men end up participating.
The effects of the latest violence perpetrated against Palestinians upon the collective Israeli soul is incalculable; the notion that it can survive as an "ethnocracy" - favouring one ethnic group, Jews, yet by and large democratic - is becoming a fiction.
Violence-as-power
Who will save Israel from herself?
Israelis are clearly incapable. Their addiction as a society to the illusion of violence-as-power has reached the level of collective mental illness.
As Haaretz reporter Yossi Melman described it on January 10, "Israel has created an image of itself of a madman that has lost it".
Not Palestinians, too many of whom have fallen prey to the same condition.
Not the Middle East Quartet, the European Union, the United Nations, or the Arab League, all of whom are utterly powerless to influence Israeli policy.
Not the organised Jewish leadership in the US and Europe, who are even more blind to what is happening than most Israelis, who at least allow internal debate about the wisdom of their government's policies.
Not the growing progressive Jewish community, which will need years to achieve enough social and political power to challenge the status quo.
And not senior American politicians and policy-makers who are either unwilling to risk alienating American Jewish voters, or have been so brainwashed by the constant barrage of propaganda put out by the "Israel Lobby" that they are incapable of reaching an independent judgment about the conflict.
During the US presidential race, Barack Obama was ridiculed for being a messiah-like figure. The idea does not sound so funny now. It is hard to imagine anyone less saving Israel, the Palestinians, and the world from another four years of mindless violence.
Mark LeVine is a professor of Middle East history at the University of California, Irvine, and is the author of Heavy Metal Islam: Rock, Resistance, and the Struggle for the Soul of Islam and the soon to be published An Impossible Peace: Israel/Palestine Since 1989.
The views expressed by the author are not necessarily those of Al Jazeera.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 12, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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Words of truth from someone who knows first hand.
How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe
Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions
Avi Shlaim
The Guardian, Wednesday 7 January 2009
Article history
A wounded Palestinian policeman gestures while lying on the ground outside Hamas police headquarters following an Israeli air strike in Gaza City. Photograph: Mohammed Abed/AFP/Getty Images
The only way to make sense of Israel's senseless war in Gaza is through understanding the historical context. Establishing the state of Israel in May 1948 involved a monumental injustice to the Palestinians. British officials bitterly resented American partisanship on behalf of the infant state. On 2 June 1948, Sir John Troutbeck wrote to the foreign secretary, Ernest Bevin, that the Americans were responsible for the creation of a gangster state headed by "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". I used to think that this judgment was too harsh but Israel's vicious assault on the people of Gaza, and the Bush administration's complicity in this assault, have reopened the question.
I write as someone who served loyally in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and who has never questioned the legitimacy of the state of Israel within its pre-1967 borders. What I utterly reject is the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green Line. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the aftermath of the June 1967 war had very little to do with security and everything to do with territorial expansionism. The aim was to establish Greater Israel through permanent political, economic and military control over the Palestinian territories. And the result has been one of the most prolonged and brutal military occupations of modern times.
Four decades of Israeli control did incalculable damage to the economy of the Gaza Strip. With a large population of 1948 refugees crammed into a tiny strip of land, with no infrastructure or natural resources, Gaza's prospects were never bright. Gaza, however, is not simply a case of economic under-development but a uniquely cruel case of deliberate de-development. To use the Biblical phrase, Israel turned the people of Gaza into the hewers of wood and the drawers of water, into a source of cheap labour and a captive market for Israeli goods. The development of local industry was actively impeded so as to make it impossible for the Palestinians to end their subordination to Israel and to establish the economic underpinnings essential for real political independence.
Gaza is a classic case of colonial exploitation in the post-colonial era. Jewish settlements in occupied territories are immoral, illegal and an insurmountable obstacle to peace. They are at once the instrument of exploitation and the symbol of the hated occupation. In Gaza, the Jewish settlers numbered only 8,000 in 2005 compared with 1.4 million local residents. Yet the settlers controlled 25% of the territory, 40% of the arable land and the lion's share of the scarce water resources. Cheek by jowl with these foreign intruders, the majority of the local population lived in abject poverty and unimaginable misery. Eighty per cent of them still subsist on less than $2 a day. The living conditions in the strip remain an affront to civilised values, a powerful precipitant to resistance and a fertile breeding ground for political extremism.
In August 2005 a Likud government headed by Ariel Sharon staged a unilateral Israeli pullout from Gaza, withdrawing all 8,000 settlers and destroying the houses and farms they had left behind. Hamas, the Islamic resistance movement, conducted an effective campaign to drive the Israelis out of Gaza. The withdrawal was a humiliation for the Israeli Defence Forces. To the world, Sharon presented the withdrawal from Gaza as a contribution to peace based on a two-state solution. But in the year after, another 12,000 Israelis settled on the West Bank, further reducing the scope for an independent Palestinian state. Land-grabbing and peace-making are simply incompatible. Israel had a choice and it chose land over peace.
The real purpose behind the move was to redraw unilaterally the borders of Greater Israel by incorporating the main settlement blocs on the West Bank to the state of Israel. Withdrawal from Gaza was thus not a prelude to a peace deal with the Palestinian Authority but a prelude to further Zionist expansion on the West Bank. It was a unilateral Israeli move undertaken in what was seen, mistakenly in my view, as an Israeli national interest. Anchored in a fundamental rejection of the Palestinian national identity, the withdrawal from Gaza was part of a long-term effort to deny the Palestinian people any independent political existence on their land.
Israel's settlers were withdrawn but Israeli soldiers continued to control all access to the Gaza Strip by land, sea and air. Gaza was converted overnight into an open-air prison. From this point on, the Israeli air force enjoyed unrestricted freedom to drop bombs, to make sonic booms by flying low and breaking the sound barrier, and to terrorise the hapless inhabitants of this prison.
Israel likes to portray itself as an island of democracy in a sea of authoritarianism. Yet Israel has never in its entire history done anything to promote democracy on the Arab side and has done a great deal to undermine it. Israel has a long history of secret collaboration with reactionary Arab regimes to suppress Palestinian nationalism. Despite all the handicaps, the Palestinian people succeeded in building the only genuine democracy in the Arab world with the possible exception of Lebanon. In January 2006, free and fair elections for the Legislative Council of the Palestinian Authority brought to power a Hamas-led government. Israel, however, refused to recognise the democratically elected government, claiming that Hamas is purely and simply a terrorist organisation.
America and the EU shamelessly joined Israel in ostracising and demonising the Hamas government and in trying to bring it down by withholding tax revenues and foreign aid. A surreal situation thus developed with a significant part of the international community imposing economic sanctions not against the occupier but against the occupied, not against the oppressor but against the oppressed.
As so often in the tragic history of Palestine, the victims were blamed for their own misfortunes. Israel's propaganda machine persistently purveyed the notion that the Palestinians are terrorists, that they reject coexistence with the Jewish state, that their nationalism is little more than antisemitism, that Hamas is just a bunch of religious fanatics and that Islam is incompatible with democracy. But the simple truth is that the Palestinian people are a normal people with normal aspirations. They are no better but they are no worse than any other national group. What they aspire to, above all, is a piece of land to call their own on which to live in freedom and dignity.
Like other radical movements, Hamas began to moderate its political programme following its rise to power. From the ideological rejectionism of its charter, it began to move towards pragmatic accommodation of a two-state solution. In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel. Israel, however, refused to negotiate with a government that included Hamas.
It continued to play the old game of divide and rule between rival Palestinian factions. In the late 1980s, Israel had supported the nascent Hamas in order to weaken Fatah, the secular nationalist movement led by Yasser Arafat. Now Israel began to encourage the corrupt and pliant Fatah leaders to overthrow their religious political rivals and recapture power. Aggressive American neoconservatives participated in the sinister plot to instigate a Palestinian civil war. Their meddling was a major factor in the collapse of the national unity government and in driving Hamas to seize power in Gaza in June 2007 to pre-empt a Fatah coup.
The war unleashed by Israel on Gaza on 27 December was the culmination of a series of clashes and confrontations with the Hamas government. In a broader sense, however, it is a war between Israel and the Palestinian people, because the people had elected the party to power. The declared aim of the war is to weaken Hamas and to intensify the pressure until its leaders agree to a new ceasefire on Israel's terms. The undeclared aim is to ensure that the Palestinians in Gaza are seen by the world simply as a humanitarian problem and thus to derail their struggle for independence and statehood.
The timing of the war was determined by political expediency. A general election is scheduled for 10 February and, in the lead-up to the election, all the main contenders are looking for an opportunity to prove their toughness. The army top brass had been champing at the bit to deliver a crushing blow to Hamas in order to remove the stain left on their reputation by the failure of the war against Hezbollah in Lebanon in July 2006. Israel's cynical leaders could also count on apathy and impotence of the pro-western Arab regimes and on blind support from President Bush in the twilight of his term in the White House. Bush readily obliged by putting all the blame for the crisis on Hamas, vetoing proposals at the UN Security Council for an immediate ceasefire and issuing Israel with a free pass to mount a ground invasion of Gaza.
As always, mighty Israel claims to be the victim of Palestinian aggression but the sheer asymmetry of power between the two sides leaves little room for doubt as to who is the real victim. This is indeed a conflict between David and Goliath but the Biblical image has been inverted - a small and defenceless Palestinian David faces a heavily armed, merciless and overbearing Israeli Goliath. The resort to brute military force is accompanied, as always, by the shrill rhetoric of victimhood and a farrago of self-pity overlaid with self-righteousness. In Hebrew this is known as the syndrome of bokhim ve-yorim, "crying and shooting".
To be sure, Hamas is not an entirely innocent party in this conflict. Denied the fruit of its electoral victory and confronted with an unscrupulous adversary, it has resorted to the weapon of the weak - terror. Militants from Hamas and Islamic Jihad kept launching Qassam rocket attacks against Israeli settlements near the border with Gaza until Egypt brokered a six-month ceasefire last June. The damage caused by these primitive rockets is minimal but the psychological impact is immense, prompting the public to demand protection from its government. Under the circumstances, Israel had the right to act in self-defence but its response to the pinpricks of rocket attacks was totally disproportionate. The figures speak for themselves. In the three years after the withdrawal from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. On the other hand, in 2005-7 alone, the IDF killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children.
Whatever the numbers, killing civilians is wrong. This rule applies to Israel as much as it does to Hamas, but Israel's entire record is one of unbridled and unremitting brutality towards the inhabitants of Gaza. Israel also maintained the blockade of Gaza after the ceasefire came into force which, in the view of the Hamas leaders, amounted to a violation of the agreement. During the ceasefire, Israel prevented any exports from leaving the strip in clear violation of a 2005 accord, leading to a sharp drop in employment opportunities. Officially, 49.1% of the population is unemployed. At the same time, Israel restricted drastically the number of trucks carrying food, fuel, cooking-gas canisters, spare parts for water and sanitation plants, and medical supplies to Gaza. It is difficult to see how starving and freezing the civilians of Gaza could protect the people on the Israeli side of the border. But even if it did, it would still be immoral, a form of collective punishment that is strictly forbidden by international humanitarian law.
The brutality of Israel's soldiers is fully matched by the mendacity of its spokesmen. Eight months before launching the current war on Gaza, Israel established a National Information Directorate. The core messages of this directorate to the media are that Hamas broke the ceasefire agreements; that Israel's objective is the defence of its population; and that Israel's forces are taking the utmost care not to hurt innocent civilians. Israel's spin doctors have been remarkably successful in getting this message across. But, in essence, their propaganda is a pack of lies.
A wide gap separates the reality of Israel's actions from the rhetoric of its spokesmen. It was not Hamas but the IDF that broke the ceasefire. It di d so by a raid into Gaza on 4 November that killed six Hamas men. Israel's objective is not just the defence of its population but the eventual overthrow of the Hamas government in Gaza by turning the people against their rulers. And far from taking care to spare civilians, Israel is guilty of indiscriminate bombing and of a three-year-old blockade that has brought the inhabitants of Gaza, now 1.5 million, to the brink of a humanitarian catastrophe.
The Biblical injunction of an eye for an eye is savage enough. But Israel's insane offensive against Gaza seems to follow the logic of an eye for an eyelash. After eight days of bombing, with a death toll of more than 400 Palestinians and four Israelis, the gung-ho cabinet ordered a land invasion of Gaza the consequences of which are incalculable.
No amount of military escalation can buy Israel immunity from rocket attacks from the military wing of Hamas. Despite all the death and destruction that Israel has inflicted on them, they kept up their resistance and they kept firing their rockets. This is a movement that glorifies victimhood and martyrdom. There is simply no military solution to the conflict between the two communities. The problem with Israel's concept of security is that it denies even the most elementary security to the other community. The only way for Israel to achieve security is not through shooting but through talks with Hamas, which has repeatedly declared its readiness to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with the Jewish state within its pre-1967 borders for 20, 30, or even 50 years. Israel has rejected this offer for the same reason it spurned the Arab League peace plan of 2002, which is still on the table: it involves concessions and compromises.
This brief review of Israel's record over the past four decades makes it difficult to resist the conclusion that it has become a rogue state with "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction and practises terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel fulfils all of these three criteria; the cap fits and it must wear it. Israel's real aim is not peaceful coexistence with its Palestinian neighbours but military domination. It keeps compounding the mistakes of the past with new and more disastrous ones. Politicians, like everyone else, are of course free to repeat the lies and mistakes of the past. But it is not mandatory to do so.
• Avi Shlaim is a professor of international relations at the University of Oxford and the author of The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World and of Lion of Jordan: King Hussein's Life in War and Peace.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 13, 2009 - 12:07am PT
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Divide israel amongst the border nations and see how long it takes to form a Palestinian state. Hmmm, not a bad idea. Or we could just move the current inhabitants out and rename Israel Hamasreal. Sweet! Then who's side will the U.S. be on? The Sunni or the Shiite?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 13, 2009 - 06:39am PT
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pics of the latest san fran anti-israel rally:
http://zombietime.com/gaza_war_protest/
the captions are worth reading, especially about the pics of "queer jews" supporting hamas...irony? like a ton of bricks...hmmm, how does hamas feel about queers (and i mean arab/muslim queers)?
also worth reading is mark steyn's article on the "oldest hatred"...what happens when christians, jews, or hindus are murdered by muslims? not much really; the media doesn't even pay attention or refers to the murderers as "youths" or "militants"...but what happens when muslims are simply insulted by christians, jews, or hindus? riots! retaliation against innocent civilians! cries for global uprising!
"this fits a larger pattern in which Israeli violence has been responsible for ending 79 per cent of all lulls in violence since the outbreak of the second intifada"
i don't doubt this stat, but context is always enlightening... the current "israeli violence" is an excellent example...philo, et al, probably believe the israelis ended the most recent "lull in violence" and will refer to the "cease-fire" that ended in December...only, hamas NEVER stopped firing rockets into israel during the "cease-fire"...and nobody cared...until israel responded
i'm not sure if this is the "test" biden referred to in the campaign, but the whole world (particularly iran and syria) will be watching closely...so far, i'm encouraged by obama's lack of response, which i see as support for israel...hope isn't only found in change
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 13, 2009 - 07:02am PT
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Livni: "Gaza offensive is good for the Palestinians"
By Barak Ravid, Haaretz Correspondent and News Agencies
Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni on Tuesday said Israel's campaign against Hamas in Gaza was serving the interest of the Palestinian people, as well as that of Israel.
In a just and perfect world Livni, olmert, barack, bush, et al would wake up palestinian this morning:
http://www.uruknet.de/?s1=1&p=50434&s2=06
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 13, 2009 - 10:34am PT
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Ahad that was almost too painful.
All the proof and truth for the world to see but the xenophobes wont open their eyes.
END THE OCCUPATION! FREE PALESTINE!
Put all the guilty on both sides of the wall on trial for war crimes!
Let the truth be known!
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jan 13, 2009 - 10:48am PT
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Heard a good lecture on Democracy Now yesterday, an Israeli against the occupation of Gaza made a good point:
"Occupation is a form of violence..."
Hadn't thought of it in that way before.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 13, 2009 - 11:25am PT
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Jeff,
Both sides are f*#ked up and have done f*#ked up things and will continue to do so.
This and many other threads are testimony to the concept and a vinget of what is going on in the ME.
A few people get their dander up and think "they" can solve "the problems" because "they are right" but all that happens is alienation and more spite between the players.
And what gets accomplished - nothing.
So, I renew my call for you to perform aliya, Jeff.
Put your body where your true loyalties are.
That would remove one more war monger from the US and hurry the grand catastrophy in the ME so the rest of us can get on with our lives.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 13, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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clash of civiizations? you tell me:
from the catholic dictionary: martyr--A person who chooses to suffer, even to die, rather than renounce his or her faith or Christian principles. After the example of Christ one does not resist one's persecutors when they use violence out of hatred or malice against Christ, or his Church, or some revealed truth of the Catholic religion. (Etym. Greek martyros, witness, martyr.)
from the la times: Reporting from Tyre, Lebanon -- Hiba Qassir dreams of making movies. She's ambitious and precocious enough. At 18, she's taught herself how to edit video and sound on a computer, and has her sights set on directing gripping social and psychological dramas.
But if the movie business doesn't work out, that's OK. She has other dreams: perhaps to become a cop or a pilot. Or maybe a suicide bomber.
"Martyrdom is the shortest way to heaven, and the history of martyrdom is not like any history," Hiba says. "It made victory. We wouldn't have achieved victory without these martyrdoms."
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 14, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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Damn...this thread was so close to making it to "page 2."
But Fat just had to bump it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 14, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
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Since fatty bumped
"Israel Is Committing War Crimes -- Wall Street Journal (Jan 10, 2009)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Hamas's violations are no justification for Israel's actions. (...) Israel had not suffered an "armed attack" immediately prior to its bombardment of the Gaza Strip.
Since firing the first Kassam rocket into Israel in 2002, Hamas and other Palestinian groups have loosed thousands of rockets and mortar shells into Israel, causing about two dozen Israeli deaths and widespread fear. As indiscriminate attacks on civilians, these were war crimes. During roughly the same period, Israeli forces killed about 2,700 Palestinians in Gaza by targeted killings, aerial bombings, in raids, etc., according to the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem.
But on June 19, 2008, Hamas and Israel commenced a six-month truce. Neither side complied perfectly. Israel refused to substantially ease the suffocating siege of Gaza imposed in June 2007. Hamas permitted sporadic rocket fire -- typically after Israel killed or seized Hamas members in the West Bank, where the truce did not apply. Either one or no Israelis were killed (reports differ) by rockets in the half year leading up to the current attack.
Israel then broke the truce on Nov. 4, raiding the Gaza Strip and killing a Palestinian. Hamas retaliated with rocket fire; Israel then killed five more Palestinians. In the following days, Hamas continued rocket fire -- yet still no Israelis died. Israel cannot claim self-defense against this escalation, because it was provoked by Israel's own violation. An armed attack that is not justified by self-defense is a war of aggression. Under the Nuremberg Principles affirmed by U.N. Resolution 95, aggression is a crime against peace. CLIP"
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 14, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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"uncodeitonal"
???????
un...code...i...tonal
?
Is that like chanting Gregorian monk music?
Because I bet we could talk them into it.
Then Hamas could tour like River Dance.
And just as a playful note
Umar spelled backwards is Ram u.
Molahs buddy.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 15, 2009 - 10:48am PT
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and you thought i was just going to let this one go...
"No phrase represents more of a triumph of hope over experience than the phrase "Middle East peace process." A close second might be the once-fashionable notion that Israel should "trade land for peace."
Since everybody seems to be criticizing Israel for its military response to the rockets fired into their country from the Gaza Strip, let me add my criticisms as well. The Israelis traded land for peace, but they have never gotten the peace, so they should take back the land.
Maybe a couple of generations of Palestinians in Gaza living in peace under Israeli occupation and a couple of generations of the occupation troops squelching the terrorists - "militants" for those of you who are squeamish - would set up conditions where the Palestinians would be free to vote on whether they would like to remain occupied or to have their own state, minus terrorists and their rockets.
Casualty totals alone should be enough to show the Palestinian people are the biggest losers from the current situation, where the terrorists among them, firing rockets into Israel, can bring devastating retaliatory strikes.
Why don't the Palestinians vote for some representatives who would make a lasting peace with Israel? Because any such candidates would be killed by the terrorists long before election day, so nobody volunteers for that dangerous role.
We don't know what the Palestinians really want - and won't know as long as they are ruled by Hamas, Hezbollah and the like.
Whatever the benefits of peace for the Palestinian population, what are the terrorists going to do in peacetime? Become librarians and furniture salesmen?
So-called "world opinion" has been a largely negative factor in this situation. Nothing is easier than for people living in peace and safety in Paris or Rome to call for a "cease-fire" after the Israelis retaliate against people who are firing rockets into their country.
The time to cease-fire was before the rockets were fired.
What do calls for "cease-fire" and "negotiations" do? They lower the price of launching attacks. This is true not only in the Middle East but in other parts of the world as well.
During the Vietnam War, when American clergymen were crying out "Stop the bombing!" they paid little attention to the fact that bombing pauses made it easier for North Vietnam to move more ammunition into South Vietnam to kill both South Vietnamese and Americans.
After Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands, if British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher had heeded calls for a "cease-fire," that would have simply lowered the price to be paid by the Argentine government for their invasion.
Go back 100 years - before there was a United Nations and before "world opinion" was taken into account. An Argentine invasion of the Falkland Islands at that time would have risked not only a British counterattack to retake the islands but also British attacks on Argentina itself.
Anywhere in the world, attacks such as those on Israel today would not only have risked retaliation but invasion and annihilation of the government that launched those attacks.
Today, so-called "world opinion" not only limits the price to be paid for aggression or terrorism, it has even led to the self-indulgence of third parties talking pretty talk about limiting the response of those who are attacked to what is "proportionate."
By this reasoning, we should not have declared war on Japan for bombing Pearl Harbor. We should have gone over to Japan, bombed one of their harbors - and let it go at that. Does anyone imagine that this would have led to Japan's becoming as peaceful today as it has become after Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Or is the real agenda to engage in moral preening from a safe distance and at somebody else's expense?
Those who think "negotiations" are a magic answer seem not to understand that when A wants to annihilate B, this is not an "issue" that can be resolved amicably around a conference table."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 15, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
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Bookworm wrote
"Why don't the Palestinians vote for some representatives who would make a lasting peace with Israel? Because any such candidates would be killed by the terrorists long before election day, so nobody volunteers for that dangerous role. "
They voted for Abbas, the favorite of Israel and the US. Then Israel exploited the non-violent stance of Abbas to give him little and continued settlements, the wall, and land grabs. The US didn't stand behind him except for second rate words.
Israel had a partner for peace but they used the peaceful time to extend their territory and made sure the Palestinians were provoked enough to continue the lockdown on the west bank and Gaza.
Why, because they don't want peace until they've taken every inch of land they want, and then will sit back and wait for the unsustainable palestinian areas that are left to wither with time.
Sorry, but that's the unstated policy (stated by some) that's behind what actions actually take place. BOTH sides need to have honest intentions that seek a genuine solution that BOTH sides can live with. Until then it's just the good liars against the bad liars.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 15, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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Fatty
Israel has always denied the fence is meant to be the border. Everybody knew it was a lie except the same types who believe Israel is telling the truth now.
Peace
Karl
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 15, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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karl, i didn't write that; i was quoting thomas sowell's column...i thought i included his byline
anyway, as i recall, the homocide bombings continued even after israel agreed to hand over the west bank..thus, the wall...guess what? homocide bombings stopped when the wall was completed...imagine that...you may want to quibble about exact boundaries and ignore the number of israelis forced out of their homes (or be left on the other side of the wall), but i see the wall for what it really is--an effective way to stop palestinian murderers from murderering israeli children
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 15, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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"But splits in Hamas exist between its leaders based in Syria and those in Gaza. The Gazans are more open to a weeklong break, while the leaders in Syria want something from Israel in return for holding fire."
So who are those guys and why are they in Syria? Are they feelin' the pain too? WTF???
"President Bashar al-Assad of Syria also called for a cease-fire, saying in an interview with the BBC that the effects of war could be more dangerous than war itself, “sowing seeds of extremism and terror around the region.”"
Sure wouldn't want that.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 15, 2009 - 02:11pm PT
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and hamas has rejected the egyptian truce because it is supposed to last two years, which hamas says is "too long"
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 15, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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There goes bookworm again selectively stating what he wants to present. Which is the ongoing demonization of the Palestinians.
Wht don't you also mention that Israel rejected the peace plan also.
Or would that be an inconvenient truth?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 15, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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Bookworm
Even the Israeli courts called the line of the wall illegal and out of line. You talk about the line of the wall being a quible but if your neighbor put a wall across your driveway, you'd quibble
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 15, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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""President Bashar al-Assad of Syria also called for a cease-fire, saying in an interview with the BBC that the effects of war could be more dangerous than war itself, “sowing seeds of extremism and terror around the region.”"
If he's against extremism and terror, why are they hosting the Hamas headquarters and Damascus?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 15, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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read carefully, philo...i referred to HAMAS
any outrage about this, philo?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090115/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_diplomacy
yes, karl, i would...and i'm happy to know that you'd support my quibbling even if my neighbor built the wall to prevent me from hurling rocks at his house and endangering his children... and that you would continue to support me even as i continued to launch rocks at my neighbor's house even though i occasionally hit one of his children...and that you would condemn him if, in self defence, he launched a bigger rock back at me and hurt one of my children
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 15, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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And who are Hamas Bookworm Eskimos?
You have disingenuously proffered one side of the equation. I can only believe it was a deliberate effort to further demonize Hamas and by extension Palestinians.
The truth is Hamas originally said they would accept the Egyptian proposal if some minor concessions could be worked out.
It was the hardliners in Israel who originally rejected the cease fire proposal. Deciding to continue prosecuting their genocidal ethnic cleaning instead.
Where do you get your information from?
And why is it important for you to present Israel as blameless and the Palestinians as deserving of hell?
Maybe you should take a hard close look at your motivations!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 15, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
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Israelis shell hospitals and UN HQ
Israel's bombing of the UN compound in Gaza has outraged UN chief Ban Ki-moon [AFP]
Three hospitals and a UN compound have been bombed by Israel as troops continue to advance into the densely-populated Gaza City.
Around 500 people were sheltering in the Al-Quds hospital in the city's southwestern Tal Al-Hawa district when it was bombed by Israeli jets and set ablaze on Thursday morning.
Hospital officials said the fire was sparked by a "phosphorus shell".
"We have been able to control the fire in the hospital but not in the administrative building," one hospital official said.
"We hope that the flames don't spread again to the wings of the hospital."
Two hospitals east of Gaza City were also hit by Israeli shells as Gazans fled tanks advancing into the city.
It was no immediately clear if any casualties following the raids.
UN fire 'still raging'
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The Israelis also bombed a UN compound in Gaza City, setting fire to warehouses of badly-needed food and medical aid and prompting international outrage.
Around 700 Palestinians were sheltering in the UN complex at the time of the strikes which left two civilians and three staff members injured.
Adnan Abu Hasna, a spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa), said fires were still raging hours after the attack and "tens of millions of dollars worth of aid" had been destroyed.
John Ging, the director of Unrwa operations in the Strip, also accused the Israelis of using phosphorus shells.
"They are phosphorus fires so they are extremely difficult to put out because, if you put water on, it will just generate toxic fumes and do nothing to stop the burning," he said.
Israel insists all weapons used in the conflict comply with international law.
The attacks came as the number of Palestinians killed in Israel's offensive reached 1,095 with more than 5,100 wounded.
More than 330 children are among the dead and nearly half are civilians.
Thirteen Israelis have died, three of them civilians.
Two buildings housing international journalists in Gaza have also been bombed by Israeli forces.
'Investigation needed'
Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, justified shelling the UN headquarters claiming armed Palestinians within it had fired at Israeli troops first.
"It is absolutely true that we were attacked from that place … but the consequences were very sad and I apologise for it," he said.
"There were no militants in our compound and... [the Israelis] are changing their story saying militants were 'in the vicinity'"
Christopher Gunness, Unrwa spokesman
However, Christopher Gunness, a spokesman for Unrwa, robustly denied that Palestinian fighters were among refugees sheltering there.
"At no stage during the fighting today did any Israeli official pick up the phone and tell us there were militants in our compound.
"We always take action against militants ... there were no militants in our compound and now they [the Israelis] are changing their story, saying militants were 'in the vicinity'," he said.
Gunness called for a "proper investigation" into the incident.
Louis Michel, the European Aid Commissioner, also condemned the bombing of the UN complex, branding it "unacceptable".
"I am deeply shocked and dismayed to learn of this incident ... I have made it very clear that all sides must respect international humanitarian law.
"It is unacceptable that the UN headquarters in Gaza has been struck by Israeli artillery fire," he said.
Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary general, strongly condemned the incident and demanded a full explanation from Tzipi Livni, the Israeli foreign minister, during talks held on Thursday in Tel Aviv.
Ban said Ehud Barak, the Israeli defence minister, had apologised for the attack describing it as a "grave mistake".
A Red Crescent office near Gaza City and the main mosque in the southern city of Rafah were also shelled as the Israelis pushed deeper into the Strip.
Source: Al Jazeera and agencies
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 15, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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No less than nine, count them NINE, Israeli, Yes that's right ISRAELI not Arab, human rights organizations have called for the immediate cessation of the seige of Gaza and "Crimes against Humanity trials for Israelli leaders.
What do these Jews on the inside know that you and the majority of Americans don't?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 15, 2009 - 07:22pm PT
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Love hate you Fatty
but at least you don't believe what you want others to think
Peace
Karl
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 15, 2009 - 07:25pm PT
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But the rubbish he prints only creates negative feelings in people, polarizing the two sides.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 15, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
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Are you offering yours Fatty?
I accept.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 15, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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Cool........maybe this thread is going to go away.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 15, 2009 - 10:09pm PT
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Well I have three Oompaloompas and the remnants of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang while most of your buddies will be making guest appearances at the Hague so bring it on big guy. By the way how do you feel about Everlasting Lasting Gob Stoppers?
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2009 - 10:20pm PT
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Folks - this thread is becoming too conciliatory and while some cowards might hope it fades away i have news for them - as long as those murderous Nazi's continue to kill innocent men, women & children, bomb hospitals and UN facilities and the like this thread will continue in the name of all Palestinians. 82% of the racist Israeli population support this war - i say, PHUCK THEM!
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 15, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
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"Never, not when I have the cell # to an Asst. Sec Of Def, he'll send the fleet after you. "
Just like you were going to send the Mossad after people, Jeff.
Maybe some of those people you tortured in your LASO days should make a house-call to you....
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 15, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
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"Israel's bombing of the UN compound in Gaza has outraged UN chief Ban Ki-moon"
If Chief Ban Ki-Moon is so outraged, why doesn't he do something about it? The UN has thousands of people in Gaza already. Why don't they send in a peacekeeping force and, well, keep the peace? They could take the place of Hamas and run Gaza until a Palestinian state is formed.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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That is an outstanding idea Graniteclimber. The only problem is the US won't allow it, YET!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:13am PT
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Meanwhile yesterday there was good news,
Hamas elite (oxymoron there)"Iran" batalion went off to cohabitate with the dark eyed virgins.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:13am PT
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http://palestinian.ning.com/profiles/blogs/1970466:BlogPost:21449
This is a heartrending look at what is really going down.
For those that think all arabs want to kill all Jews, Check out the vile graphitti scrawled on the ruins of Gaza. Particularly the one that says "GAS THE ARABS".
And for you who mindlessly insist that Arabs teach their children to be killing machines from birth, check out the picture of the Israelis teaching tiny children how to shoot semi automatic weapons.
And for you more heartless chicken hawks take a good look at the baby with no face.
Then tell me straight to my face she deserved this.
Open up your minds, unlock your hearts! This is a holocaust perpetrated deliberately by a people who should know better!
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:44am PT
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"That is an outstanding idea Graniteclimber. The only problem is the US won't allow it, YET!"
I beg to differ. The UN is useless and corrupt. Those who depend on the UN for help are always let down. The only people who believe in the UN are dreamers believing in some machination of their perfect world dream. Give me an example of a UN program that has been a success. How about the "oil for opression of the Kurds" programme? Show me one instance when a UN intervention prevented the slaughter of innocent people.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 16, 2009 - 07:02am PT
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"their genocidal ethnic cleaning"
"For those that think all arabs want to kill all Jews, Check out the vile graphitti scrawled on the ruins of Gaza. Particularly the one that says "GAS THE ARABS".
And for you who mindlessly insist that Arabs teach their children to be killing machines from birth, check out the picture of the Israelis teaching tiny children how to shoot semi automatic weapons.
And for you more heartless chicken hawks take a good look at the baby with no face.
Then tell me straight to my face she deserved this.
Open up your minds, unlock your hearts! This is a holocaust perpetrated deliberately by a people who should know better!"
i recall somebody on this thread accused me of "demonizing" all palestinians...who was that? well, whomever it was, i'm sure he would never demonize an entire nation, especially when he reveals in his OWN response the moral distinction between the parties involved ("No less than nine, count them NINE, Israeli, Yes that's right ISRAELI not Arab, human rights organizations have called for the immediate cessation of the seige of Gaza and "Crimes against Humanity trials for Israelli leaders.")
let's see, in this latest clash of civilizations, where should i put my support? with a society that recently reinstituted crucifixion as a form of punishment for nonbelievers? or the "oppressive" society that allows its own people to accuse its own leaders of "crimes against humanity"? tough one...you know this would be so much easier if, say, one side would do something outrageous, like call for the extermination of the other side
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 09:08am PT
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JBar I said the US not the UN. The UN is not useles. They are hamstrung by the regular US veto in the Security Council.
BookWorm, You obviously didn't want to upset your concretized beliefs by actually watching what I posted. You only wanted to attack me.
Try again only this time read the earlier post.
I mentioned the Israeli human rights organizations so I wouldn't be accused of being one sided or biased. While human rights organizations world wide have condemned Israel's actions I find it humorous how you chose to spin my post.
Are you even remotely capable of open minded free thought?
Or can you only re-spin regularly debunked Zionist propaganda?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 09:25am PT
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Is Israel using illegal weapons in its offensive on Gaza?
By Amira Hass
Tags: Gaza, Hamas, Israel News
The earth shaking under your feet, clouds of choking smoke, explosions like a fireworks display, bombs bursting into all-consuming flames that cannot be extinguished with water, mushroom clouds of pinkish-red smoke, suffocating gas, harsh burns on the skin, extraordinary maimed live and dead bodies.
All of this is being caused by the bombs Israel is dropping on the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, according to reports and testimonies from there. Since the first day of the Israeli aerial attack, people have been giving exact descriptions of the side effects of the bombing, and claiming that Israel is using weapons and ammunition that they have not seen during the past eight years.
Furthermore, the kinds of grave injuries doctors at hospitals in the Strip have reported are providing yet another explanation for the overwhelming dread inhabitants are experiencing in any case.
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It is precisely for this reason that Marc Garlasco, a senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch (HRW), has come to Israel. His mission: to examine whether the weapons that both sides are using are themselves legal and whether the use of them is legal.
The American-born Garlasco has not been permitted to enter Gaza - as is also the case with people from other human rights organizations and foreign journalists. Therefore, he says, since he is unable to examine actual remnants of the explosives and see the wreckage with his own eyes, he can only guess or make assumptions in some cases. But even from afar, he has no doubt: Israel is using white phosphorus bombs. That was immediately clear to him while he stood last week on a hill facing the Gaza Strip and observed the Israel Defense Forces' bombings for several hours.
Last Saturday HRW hastened to publish a call to Israel to "stop unlawful use of white phosphorus in Gaza." The use of white phosphorus is permitted on the battlefield, explains Garlasco, but the side effects on humans and the environment are severe and highly dangerous. The statement notes that the "potential for harm to civilians is magnified by Gaza's high population density, among the highest in the world."
The fireworks-like explosions, the thick smoke, suffocating gas, and flames that are not extinguished by water, but rather are heightened by it - all of these are characteristic of the white phosphorus bombs the IDF is using. Garlasco believes the decision to make such extensive use of these bombs, manufactured by America's General Dynamics Corporation, stems from conclusions drawn from the Second Lebanon War, in which the IDF lost many tanks.
"The phosphorus bombs create a thick smokescreen and if Hamas has an anti-tank rocket, the smoke prevents the rocket from tracking the tank," he explains. There are two ways to use the bombs: The first is to impact them on the ground, in which case the resulting thick smokescreen covers a limited area; the second way is an airburst of a bomb, which contains 116 wafers doused in phosphorus. The moment the bomb blows up and the phosphorus comes in contact with oxygen - it ignites. This is what creates the "fireworks" and billows of jellyfish-shaped smoke. The fallout covers a wide area and the danger of fires and harm to civilians is enormous. The phosphorus burns glass, and immediately ignites paper, trees, wood - anything that is dry. The burning wafers causes terrible injury to anyone who comes in contact with them. The irony is that tear gas is included in the Chemical Weapons Convention and is subject to all kinds of restrictions, whereas phosphorus is not.
And in the meantime, in the hospitals in Gaza there are people lying in beds - among them many children - whose severe injuries and burns have appalled the medical teams.
Missing the target
Another new weapon that has forced itself upon Gazans is the GPS-guided mortar - a system equipped with satellite navigation, developed in Israel in late 2006-early 2007, in the wake of the Second Lebanon War. According to local military sources, it was this kind of mortar that missed its target by 30 meters and erroneously hit a United Nations Relief and Works Agency school last week; according to the UN report, 30 people were killed immediately and others died later of their injuries. "It really boggles my mind," Garlasco comments. "According to the literature, it has 3 meters' error - not 30." It is a mortar that is launched in an arc toward an unseen target, he explains, with the intention of being precise and to some extent minimize civilian casualties.
Garlasco says this is the first time the weapon has been used in any military conflict: "The Palestinians say, 'Oh, they use it on us, experiment with it for the Americans.' Experimenting has a different meaning for Americans. We think animal experimenting, but it is indeed a field test."
The new mortar was developed jointly by the Israeli weapons industry and a private American company called Alliant. Israel, notes Garlasco, has learned a lot from the wars the U.S. is waging in Afghanistan and Iraq, but above all learned from its own war in Lebanon in 2006. The mortar that was not supposed to have landed on the school was developed with the knowledge that troops "are fighting an enemy that is in a densely populated area, and here is the first time they use it."
Another important lesson Israel learned from the Lebanon war is that it cannot rely entirely on the U.S. to provide weapons. During that war, when the IDF ran out of cluster bombs, Israel asked for an emergency shipment of 1,200 such munitions (each containing 644 bomblets). The United States refused, and at that point, Garlasco notes, Israel realized it could not rely solely on American help in this realm.
Therefore, Israel has, for example, developed a new type of rifle, the (Tavor) TAR-21 ("an incredible weapon," says Garlasco; he can't help being complimentary) to take the place of the U.S.-made M-16. It has also invented the Delilah guided missile, but Garlasco does not know whether it has been used in Gaza. But not to worry, he adds: Despite the cluster bombs and independent Israeli development, Israel and the United States "still have a great relationship. By and large, the weaponry that Israel is using is American."
Not all of the weapons are new and innovative. Most, in fact, are American products developed during the Cold War. The artillery and incendiary weapons in Israel's possession were designed to destroy Russian tanks "and not Palestinian homes," he notes. The weapons being produced now are developed in the knowledge that the target is militants who operate from within a civilian population. Yet, much of the killing and destruction in Gaza are the result of old-fashioned, cheaper and less-sophisticated weapons.
Only last September did the United States grant Israel's request to supply it with 1,000 bombs of a new type, the GBU-39. They arrived at the beginning of December, and inhabitants of Rafah have witnessed their use - without knowing what they were - since the first day of the aerial attacks on the tunnels there. (The Jerusalem Post was the first to identify these as GBU-39s.) Gazans were surprised when they did not hear an explosion immediately after the Israeli aircraft fired; instead, the earth shook beneath their feet.
The manufacturer of the GBU-39 is the Boeing Corporation. The small diameter and light weight of these guided bombs ensure that any fighter plane can carry a large number of them and thus increase the number of attacks in every sortie. Garlasco says that the weapon is very accurate and penetrates deep into the earth. It is also designed to minimize collateral damage, since it does not explode over a large area like other bombs do. But other types of bombs are also being used and are destroying houses along the border with Egypt.
Gazans have noticed that there are bombs that produce mushroom clouds in various shades of red. Here, Garlasco admits, "I can only speculate. It looks like Israel is maybe using a new weapon that it was not using before: DIME - the dense inert metal explosive, consisting of 25 percent TNT and 75 percent tungsten, a heavy metal. You mix the two, in a fine grain, like pepper, and when the bomb hits the ground it aerosolizes. In less than a second, the mist dissipates and explodes."
He says the advantage of DIME is that "it strikes a very small area, 10 to 20 meters, and the fire it ignites burns out very quickly; if it hits us now, we will die, but no one around us will be hurt. The problem is that when you are killed - you are ripped to shreds and there is nothing left." Indeed, the injuries DIME causes are in general more severe than those caused by a "regular" bomb.
A paramedic at the Al-Awda Hospital in the Jabalya refugee camp has told the Palestinian Center for Human Rights that about 90 percent of the wounded he has rescued during the past few weeks were brought in with at least one limb missing. Is it the DIME that is causing the severe injuries being reported by the medical staff? Garlasco says there are "only rumors. No one has ever seen it used before, maybe it is being used now, but with Israel not letting in journalists and human rights organizations, these rumors are growing, and people say that Israeli is using terrible new weapons."
Perhaps, he says, the redness is a result of the metal in the explosives, but it will only be possible to ascertain this if experts are allowed into the Gaza Strip, or they talk to the IDF. Garlasco notes that herein lies the big difference between the Israeli army and the American army: As a worker for a human rights organization, he receives daily e-mails from the U.S. Air Force with a detailed report of the bombs it has dropped in Afghanistan and Iraq. "The Israelis would never do that," he explains. "They would never talk about what weapons they use and will never allow any discussion in society of whether the weapons should be used."
Another new weapon that he believes is now in use is the Spike: "It is very new, [from] 2005-2006, a special missile that is made to make very high-speed turns, so if you have a target that is moving and running away from you, you can chase him with the weapon. It was developed by the U.S. Navy jointly with Rafael [the Israel Armament Development Authority]. Rafael is the manufacturer."
Drones, incidentally, are a totally Israeli product, he notes; Israel is the world leader in this field, and America is learning a lot from it. The warships bombing Gaza are also Israeli made. But the cannons on the ships are Italian, produced by the Oto Melera company.
From his frustrating observation point outside Gaza, and on the basis of Israel's "very bad record of using cluster bombs in Lebanon and selling them to Georgia," Garlasco says he is worried that Israel is also now using the APAM (Anti Personnel/Anti Materiel) - a new type of round, or unit of ammunition, for tanks that was developed after Lebanon, each of which contains six cluster bombs. The tank guns aim above a target that is hiding behind some kind of cover and the ammunition explodes above people's heads - like those of Iz al-Din al-Qassam cells, for example, when they are firing rockets.
The other side
Garlasco and Human Rights Watch also examine the other side, and he says, "We believe that the Grad and Qassam are illegal weapons because they are not accurate enough to be used in this situation." He adds that Hamas makes frequent use of land mines and explosive charges that are liable to injure civilians.
However, because he and his fellow experts can't go into Gaza, "We don't know what the extent of any [Palestinian] civilian casualties is because of Hamas - whether they are shooting soldiers and their bullets end up killing civilians, or whether their anti-tank missiles miss an Israeli tank and hit a house. We don't know."
In 2005, Garlasco met with a political representative of Hamas and told him that use of Grads is a contravention of the Geneva Convention. The reply he got from the Hamas man was: "'All Israelis are military.' And I explained to them that their reading of international law is wrong." It is amazing, he adds, that the Palestinians can manufacture the Qassams under the conditions in Gaza. The Grad, however, "is a real military weapon, three meters long. It has a significant warhead. The problem is that it is designed to be fired in mass, to be fired 21 rockets at a time, so that you are covering an area and you are having a shock effect. You don't only have an explosion, but also a shock and it covers a big area. Shooting one at a time is almost useless from a military perspective."
As for the Israeli claim about weapons and ammunition being hidden in public buildings such as mosques, Garlasco reiterates that only independent sources will be able to examine this claim and clarify its veracity. If the mosques blown up in the heart of densely populated residential neighborhoods indeed served as hiding places for weapons and ammunition, he would expect to see many secondary explosions, which would have caused significant collateral damage and deep craters. It is difficult to analyze the Israeli claims on the basis of photographs, he notes.
Garlasco is not prepared to accept without question the Israeli claim that Hamas hides behind civilians and makes use of civilians. "Israelis are very quick to say they are doing it, but very short on proof. By keeping the independent people out, they leave doubt in people's minds." Furthermore, he believes, Israel has a record of not telling the truth: "They said in Lebanon they did not use cluster bombs. We found 4 million. They evade answering that they use phosphorus, and we stand there every day watching. They claim to have bombed a truck full of Grad missiles, and according to witnesses who spoke with Haaretz, it turned out to be a truck with oxygen tanks. Not everything that is long is a missile. How can anyone trust the Israeli military?'"
The IDF Spokesman responds: "The IDF is fighting the terror elements while meticulously observing the rules of engagement under international law. For understandable operational reasons, the IDF will not relate to a detailing of the materiel that is in its possession and the parameters in which it used. It should be emphasized, however, that the IDF uses only methods and materiel that are permitted under international law."
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 09:45am PT
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 16, 2009 - 09:55am PT
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"This is a holocaust perpetrated deliberately by a people who should know better!"
oops...missed this...nothing one-sided about declaring a defensive/retaliatory war to be a "holocaust perpetrated deliberately by a PEOPLE"...my apologies for not reading more closely and recognizing the fair and balanced commentary that goes out of its way to portray the israelis as fighting a war against an enemy that continues to call for their "extermination"
philo, i do not need to see pictures of dead babies to know that war is horrible or to wish for there to be no more wars ever again...i do, however, believe that wars are sometimes necessary...and i believe that the only real hope for peace lies in the destruction of HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH...as long as these groups exist and as long as they continue to receive arms from syria and iran and support from the un and the "free" world, the israelis will need to fight, literally, for their survival
maybe you can explain to me why my beliefs are misguided...why the calls for israel's destruction do not justify their determined response to thousands of rockets launched into their neighborhoods...why the israeli response to HAMAS' rocket attacks are the cause of the suffering in gaza rather than the rocket attacks themselves...really, i want to learn
also, you missed my point...the israelis protest their own government when palestinian children die...where are the palestinians who protest their government's rocket attacks against israel? or their government's celebration of suicide bombers who kill israeli children?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:25am PT
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"If the media and the international community continue to play into the dirty hands of Hamas terrorists, its terrorism will continue and spread. Why not? It's a win-win strategy for terrorists and a lose-lose strategy for democracies. Hamas knows that by attacking Israeli civilians, they can secure one of two results: Israel will do nothing and Hamas will succeed in killing Israeli children; or Israel will respond and inevitably kill some Palestinian children, thereby provoking the ire of the media, the international community and ultimately decent people all around the world who are revolted by the cynically manipulated images of dead children."
here is the whole article:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/16/hamas-dead-baby-strategy/
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:30am PT
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So are you all proud of US and our rogue 51st state? Have they "DEFENDED" themselves enough.
Their BS excuse of their right to defend themselves is the exact SAME reasoning used by the Nazis when they would slaughter 100 citizens in retaliation for 1 killed German.
The same obscene excuse used when Germans would go in and obliterate whole villages in Poland as retribution for the actions of the Polish Underground.
Bookworm you know so little that you can only incessantly spew about Hamas and their vow to destroy Israel. They have NO CHANCE! Israel will destroy it's self by the hypocrisy they perpetrate.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:33am PT
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"Israel will destroy it's self by the hypocrisy they perpetrate."
This is the most intelligent statement posted to this thread.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:50am PT
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So I want to explain the origins of one of the oft repeated myths perpetrated by the Zionists of Israel. The notion that the "Arabs want to drive the Jews into the sea".
Few on this forum have any idea of the origins of this propaganda.
In 1948 after the Jews preemptively and illegally declared "STATEHOOD" they immediately proceeded with the expulsion of the Arabs with alacrity.
One such case was the prominent and wealthy city of Jaffa. The jews rounded up 95% of the Palestinian population and literally herded them to the shore of the Mediterranean Sea. Then they attacked them and literally drove THE ARABS INTO THE SEA! The Palestinians were left no other option but to board small boats and make their way to Gaza. Thousands drowned when overloaded boats capsized.
The world was outraged by this inhumane ethnic cleansing. The PR nightmare Israel faced threatened to scuttle support for their new state. So they fired up the full power of their propaganda machine. Now Americans with tragically short memories have been led to believe that it is the Arabs who want to drive the Jews into the sea. Which is plainly an impossibility for the Arabs but not for the Israelis.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:53am PT
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September 16, 2008
Jaffa's 'Renewal' Aims at Expulsion of Palestinians
by Jonathan Cook
The ground floor of Zaki Khimayl's home is a cafe where patrons can drink mint tea or fresh juice as they smoke on a water pipe. Located by Jaffa's beach, a stone's throw from Tel Aviv, the business should be thriving.
Mr. Khimayl, however, like hundreds of other families in the Arab neighborhoods of Ajami and Jabaliya, is up to his eyes in debt and trapped in a world of bureaucratic regulations apparently designed with only one end in mind: his eviction from Jaffa.
Sitting on the cafe's balcony, Mr. Khimayl, 59, said he felt besieged. Bulldozers are tearing up the land by the beach for redevelopment and luxury apartments are springing up all around his dilapidated two-story home.
He opened a briefcase, one of five he has stuffed with demands and fines from official bodies, as well as bills from four lawyers dealing with the flood of paperwork.
"I owe 1.8 million shekels [$500,000] in water and business rates alone," he said in exasperation. "The crazy thing is the municipality recently valued the property and told me it's worth much less than the sum I owe."
Jaffa is one of half a dozen "mixed cities" in Israel, where Jewish and Palestinian citizens supposedly live together. The rest of Israel's Palestinian minority, relatives of the Palestinians in the occupied territories, live in their own separate and deprived communities.
Despite the image of coexistence cultivated by the Israeli authorities, Jaffa is far from offering a shared space for Jews and Palestinians, according to Sami Shehadeh of the Popular Committee for the Defense of Jaffa's Homes. Instead, Palestinian residents live in their own largely segregated neighborhoods, especially Ajami, the city's poorest district.
Only last month, Mr. Shehadeh said, the Jewish residents' committees proposed creating days when the municipal pool could be used only by Jews.
Although Jaffa's 18,000 Palestinian residents constitute one-third of the city's population, they have been left powerless politically since a municipal fusion with Jaffa's much larger neighbor, Tel Aviv, in 1950. Of the cities' joint population, Palestinians are just three percent.
After years of neglect, Mr. Shehadeh said, the residents are finally attracting attention from the authorities – but the interest is far from benign. A "renewal plan" for Jaffa, ostensibly designed to improve the inhabitants' quality of life, is in fact seeking the Palestinian residents' removal on the harshest terms possible, he said.
"The municipality talks a lot about 'developing' and 'rehabilitating' the area, but what it means by development is attracting wealthy Jews looking to live close by Tel Aviv but within view of the sea," he said.
"The Palestinian residents here are simply seen as an obstacle to the plan, so they are being evicted from their homes under any pretext that can be devised.
"Some of the families have lived in these homes since well before the state of Israel was established, and yet they are being left with nothing."
The current pressure on the residents to leave Ajami has painful echoes of the 1948 war that followed Israel's declaration of its existence. Once, Jaffa was the most powerful city in Palestine, its wealth derived from the area's huge orange exports.
As Israeli historians have noted, however, one of the Jewish leadership's main aims in the 1948 war was the expulsion of the Palestinian population from Jaffa, especially given its proximity to Tel Aviv, the new Jewish state's largest city.
Ilan Pappe, an historian, writes that the people of Jaffa were "literally pushed into the sea" to board fishing boats destined for Gaza as "Jewish troops shot over their heads to hasten their expulsion."
By the end of the war, no more than 4,000 of Jaffa's 70,000 Palestinians remained. The Israeli government nationalized all their property and corralled the residents into the Ajami neighborhood, south of Jaffa port. For two years they were sealed off from the rest of Jaffa behind barbed wire.
In the meantime, Jaffa's properties were either demolished or redistributed to new Jewish immigrants. The heart of old Jaffa, next to the port, was developed as a touristic playground, with palatial Palestinian homes turned into exclusive restaurants and art galleries run by Jewish entrepreneurs.
The Ajami district, on the other hand, was quickly transformed from a distinguished neighborhood of Jaffa into its most deprived area, which became a magnet for crime and drugs. "The municipality showed its disdain for us by dumping all the city's waste, even dangerous chemicals, on our beach," Mr. Shehadeh said.
The residents – even those who continued to live in their families' original homes – lost their status as owners and overnight became tenants in confiscated property, forced to pay rent to a state-controlled company, Amidar.
Today, Amidar wants the families out to make way for wealthy Jewish investors and real estate developers.
Over the past 18 months, it has issued 497 eviction orders against Ajami families, threatening to make 3,000 people homeless.
"The problem for the families is that for six decades they have been ignored," said Mr. Shehadeh, who is standing in the local elections to the council next month.
"Four-fifths of Ajami's population is Palestinian and no investments were made by the municipality. Amidar refused to renovate the homes, and the planning authorities refused to issue permits to the families to build new properties or alter existing ones."
Faced with crumbling old homes and growing families, the residents had little choice but to fix and extend their properties themselves. Now years, sometimes decades, later Amidar is using these alterations as grounds for eviction, arguing that the residents have broken the terms of their rental agreements.
Mental Lahavi, vice-chairman of the local building and planning committee, recently admitted to the local media: "The municipality froze all [building] permits in the area for a long period and would not even let people replace an asbestos roof. They turned all the residents of the neighborhood into offenders."
Mr. Khimayl has amassed large debts because he used parts of his home that, according to Amidar, were not covered by his contract – even though the house has been owned by his family since 1902.
Amidar has also been waging a legal battle over a minor alteration he made to the property.
Many years ago, Mr. Khimayl rebuilt the dangerous external stone steps that provided the only access to the house's second floor. In 2005, Amidar inspectors told him he had broken the terms of his contract and should remove the new steps.
Unable to reach his home in any other way, he replaced the stone steps with a metal staircase. Another inspector declared the staircase a violation of the agreement, too.
Mr. Khimayl is currently using a metal staircase on wheels, arguing that the moveable steps are not a permanent alteration. Nonetheless, Amidar is pursuing him through the courts. Other families face similar problems.
A recent report by the Human Rights Association in Nazareth concluded the government was seeking to use a "quiet" form of ethnic cleansing, using administrative and legal pressure, to make Jaffa entirely Jewish.
Amidar has said it is simply upholding the law. "In cases in which the law has been broken, the company acts to protect the state's rights, regardless of the value of the property or the religion or nationality of the tenants."
This article originally appeared in The National, published in Abu Dhabi.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:09am PT
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The IDF and the IAF are cowardly bastards. The grieving Palestinian mothers who get in the Israeli soldiers faces have a thousand times more balls than these swine!
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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Philo, over weeks now, I've read every post here. Except for the thread's originator (who is likely rabid), you seem like the most dogmatic poster; unable to reason. Here's one example. First you post about the Israelis:
"...Deciding to continue prosecuting their genocidal ethnic cleaning instead."
OK, so the bad guys are committing genocide. I've seen genocide before, in my lifetime and in history. As I understand it it means deliberately wiping out a whole race or a discrete grouping of people. So, I get your post, the Israelis are trying to wipe out a whole race. But this seems fishy to me, aren't they the far superior military power? Couldn't they blot out the Palestinians at any time, if they so choose?
The answer to my questions, according to Philo, comes several posts later:
"... who want to drive the Jews into the sea. Which is plainly an impossibility for the Arabs but not for the Israelis."
So, now I'm confused, Philo. Clearly, according to you the Israelis have the power to commit genocide, that's clear. And, as you told us earlier, they are doing so? But there are a million and a half Palestinians in Gaza and only 1000 plus dead. Are the Israelis too incompetent to kill more, are they just doing this genocide poorly? I don't get it.
Actually, I do get it. There is no genocide, but instead remarkable restraint. Restraint that - if we believe what Hamas says, they would never practice toward jews.
It is clear Philo, that your sympathies lie with the Palestinians. But look back at your posts. Your sympathies make you blind (utterly). In your eyes, a people who endorse genocide, but are as yet incapable of causing it, can do very little wrong. Yet a people who could easily wipe out the other, but use great care to not do so, can do no right. A society that ruthlessly kills dissent (the Palestinians as governed by Hamas), is good and noble, whereas one that, as you've illustrated, tolerates vigorous dissent, is bad and genocidal.
I admire your humanity, your ability to sympathize. But your contradictions are hogwash. Your cant grows old. Both sides have problems; it takes two here to "tango" (and a lot of past bad blood). Open your eyes.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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Tragic photo’s for sure Philo and what the Israeli’s are doing is very wrong. But to keep up this “Nazi” comparison is ridiculous.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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Is it? The question I would ask is HOW could a people who suffered like that justify in any way behaving even remotely similarly?
Is it just that they haven't killed enough Palestinians in a quick enough manner?
Would you prefer if they just up and killed a million people?
And for the record I recognized the vitriolic response to the OP title.
So I offered a less offensive thread in What Gaza?
It is you all who keep bringing this thread to page one. Thank you for that. Because every time that title comes up the message is reinforced and revitalized.
Good on ya mate.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
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rolling my eyes...
I just happened to be sitting right here at my computer Philo, as this thread was about to go to page two...and then YOU bumped it to the top.
I only throw in my 2 cents, when it is already at the top.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Well keep throwing Chris2.
Remember if you can that even though we were at war most American's refused to believe the horror stories coming out of OCCUPIED EUROPE.
It took pictures and lots of them to convince US that the "good civilized" Germans could be so utterly evil.
Wake up and get ahead of the curve on this one so that your future is not haunted by your past.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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Things are different in today’s information age. Anyone carrying a cell phone can take a photo, post it to the net and people can see it.
Start showing me photo’s of:
Mass graves
Executions
Piles of extracted teeth, that had gold in them
Lampshades made out of human skin
Gas chambers
Number tat’s on individual’s arms
Forced slave labor
Using live humans for scientific studies
And ovens to burn bodies…
Then feel completely free to call the Israeli’s Nazi’s.
Hundreds are dying in Gaza and it is very wrong.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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So again I will ask, though I expect no answer. Exactly WHAT has the past Israeli holocaust have to do with the Palestinians. Why should they have to pay the price of today's silent holocaust for something they had nothing to do with? How does it justify the horrid treatment of the Palestinians at the hands of the Jews for over sixty years?
And please don't puke out the hackneyed response that..."If I had missiles raining death and destruction... Yada yada blah blah blah!
You may not like what I have to say and some of you may even hate me for what I say. But not one of you have offered up a single cogent argument to counter my posts.
History will not be kind to Zionism.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
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No problem with this thread going to the top. Stupid thread title, one given by an obvious moron (or, as sometimes used on this site, a "maroon"). But a great discussion. Who needs to search the internet for a diversity of information, when those arging here post an enormous sampling of opinion/fact/argument?
Another question for Philo. It has to do with the incredible bravery of Palistinian women, as illustrated by your comment:
"The IDF and the IAF are cowardly bastards. The grieving Palestinian mothers who get in the Israeli soldiers faces have a thousand times more balls than these swine!"
I'm curious; do these same "ballsy" women get in the face of Hamas fighters? Do they confront Hamas leaders? One would think that SOME Palistinian women might disagree with SOME of what Hamas is doing? Do 100% of ballsy Palistianian women agree with 100% of what Hamas is doing? If not why don't they get in their faces?
Hint - such women may be brave, but they are not stupid. They know it is OK to "get in the face of" an Israeli soldier - he's unlikely to kill you unless you attack him first. But get in the face of magnanimous, efficient, noble Hamas, leaders of a just and fair society, and what happens. They'll f-ing kill you. Now and ruthlessly.
Think about the nature of the society you so passionately defend. And Sharia law. And total intolerance of political dissent.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
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mntyoung that is utter BS! There is NO society on earth where 100% of the people agree 100% of the time. I know for a fact that strong Palestinian women get in the face of Hamas. They are not killed as you erroneously imply. But unarmed Palestinians are regularly shot in the head by IDF swine while trying to surrender.
Remember if you can that we are not comparing scale.
We are comparing methods, tactics and actions. And in that light the parallels are striking and apropos.
Even Albert Einstein said so!
But what did a terrorist sympathizer like that know?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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Oh for f*#king f*#ks sake - Philo has explained probably TEN OR MORE times in this thread about his opinion on the thread title.
Are some people here REALLY so dense that they keep repeating the same thing on and on and on like it's rote pablum from first grade and that's all they know?
What's being done to the citizens of Gaza is murder and yes - it is genocide. Killing f*#king CHILDREN - are you all NUTS?
Tell ME that all the kids shown dead in the pictures are casualties of being to close to an indiscriminate bomb when you look at these photos:
Pointing guns at CHILDREN? To keep their parents in line, I suppose. What happens when a mother can't take it any more, snaps and makes a move to push away the soldier's gun?
These soldiers are PIGS.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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well, philo, einstein also encouraged fdr to pursue the bomb and then expressed regret after truman used the bomb so effectively
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/01/16/elite-hamas-unit-destroyed-hamas-surprised-by-idf/
looks like israel's strategy of shock and awe (which, by the way, was developed by the lib's favorite military man colin powell) is working
"I know for a fact that strong Palestinian women get in the face of Hamas. They are not killed as you erroneously imply. But unarmed Palestinians are regularly shot in the head by IDF swine while trying to surrender."
philo, you know for a fact? everything i believe about HAMAS is wrong but everything you believe about "IDF swine" is true? i believe the jewish media, which openly critcizes their government because they operate in a free society, but you believe the HAMAS media that never criticizes their government because they don't operate in a free society
happie, how do you know what's happening in those pics? i don't see an israeli soldier pointing a gun at children to intimidate their parents...i see a soldier in a war zone--a war against an enemy that has used children, women, ambulances, hospitals, etc. as weapons/shields--using his gun, probably to direct a group of civilians,maybe to demand they open their bags...basic training teaches these soldiers to never take their hands away from their weapon because they simply don't know who the enemy is...any of the men in those pics could be HAMAS...of course, HAMAS has a long history of treating israeli civilians with gentle compassion
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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Thank you Happiegirl!
Sometimes speaking truth to power is a lonely onus.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Those soldiers are not pigs they are not even worthy of being called organic life.....
All those that are in favor of what Israel is doing and are not clamoring to make alyia and truly support Israel with their own blood are the real spineless pigs.
Can't wait till the US is a lawless land.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
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"happie, how do you know what's happening in those pics? i don't see an israeli soldier pointing a gun at children to intimidate their parents...i see a soldier in a war zone--a war against an enemy that has used children, women, ambulances, hospitals, etc. as weapons/shield"
WORM would you kindly stop barfing that lame justification for genocide.
Human shields my ass!
There is more evidence of Israelis using Palestinian boys as human shields, marching them in front at gun point, than there ever was of Hamas using their own children as human shields.
The bigotry of your ignorance is showing. Now pull up your pants!
Oh PLEASE Skip next you will tell us the world is flat.
Those guns are aimed directly at CHILDREN! And it is done for exactly the reason Happiegirl stated. To keep the parents in line. And by the way that IS a war crime.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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The BOY IS CRYING. His mother is looking at the soldier with such controlled rage(as ANY mother would, when knowing she must NOT ACT in any way that could set off that coward behind the weapon) that it makes me want to SPIT.
The soldier is eying the sight of the weapon, and the sight is on the boy.
PIG!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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And Happiegirl that is why i started the What Gaza thread.
But those who are so offended by this OP title wont let go of this thread.
So what did this boy do to deserve being pig handled?
Throw a rock at a tank? Oooh bad terrorist!
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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Happy, Go buy a dictionary and look up "genocide". It's one thing to have an opinion on the Gaza conflict but another to distort language and make a bloody fool out of yourself.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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OK blood lust-ers how about this solution...
Take 1000 of the oldest civilian citizens of Israel and 1000 of the oldest palestinians and put them in a Roman-esque arena. Give them nothing but bare hands, sticks and stones. Lock them in for a week and let who ever is left standing be the winner take all side. It could even be closed circuit televised for your salacious entertainment.
WOODSTROKE you would know more about making a fool of yourself than most.
Most of the civilized world is begining to call this GENOCIDE.
Here is the New American Heritage Dictionary definition of genocide.
Gen-o-cide The systematic, planned annihilation of a racial, political, or cultural group.
The last 60 years of illegal occupation have proven this to be true of the Israeli actions towards the Palestinians.
And by your connotation the Nazis were not practicing Genocide against the Jews as obviously they are very much still around.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
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Woody, I just went through the same thing with Philo. "Genocide." Pure crap, pure emotion. Philo, how is it genocide? Twelve hundred dead, when you yourself have accurately pointed out that Israel could kill all Gazans, should they choose to do so. Hyperbole does nothing to pursuade.
And address the fact that the Palestinians would gladly genocide the jews if only they could (oh, but they'd do it with a cute rabbit, and they're only jews, so then it wouldn't be genocide). I think it's pathological - its not that you won't see two sides, its that you can't.
And who cares about the thread title? If a dipshiite starts a thread, but the ensuing discussion is valuable, why give a damn about the title?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 16, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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Y'know who isn't getting genocided?
The Hamas leaders in Syria, that's who.
Guess no one wants to talk about them.
"Generals sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side."
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:03pm PT
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No, Philo, how about this as a solution - both sides let go of some of the hatred, and prejudice and give.
Gazans: stop villifying and rocketing Israel. Acknowledge reality, give up past "injustices" and decide on peace.
Israel: withdraw it's absolutely mindbogglingly stupid settlements from the West Bank. Understand that they're dealing with a society that might not be able to "give" first, and unilaterally declare peace for a period of at least years. Take attacks if they come. Open the borders, come what may. Let Gaza act like an independant country, even start trying to help with economic development, trying to help create Palestinian prosperity. Make the world know that Israel, at least truly wants peace, and that it is willing to "take it on the chin" in order to get it.
But, that would require maturity by both sides; courage and risk. Nah, forget it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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You know mntyoung I am not talking solely about this war crime in Gaza.
I am talking about 60 years of planned and deliberate genocidal policies and a death toll far greater than you realize.
"No, Philo, how about this as a solution - both sides let go of some of the hatred, and prejudice and give.
Gazans: stop villifying and rocketing Israel. Acknowledge reality, give up past "injustices" and decide on peace.
Israel: withdraw it's absolutely mindbogglingly stupid settlements from the West Bank. Understand that they're dealing with a society that might not be able to "give" first, and unilaterally declare peace for a period of at least years. Take attacks if they come. Open the borders, come what may. Let Gaza act like an independant country, even start trying to help with economic development, trying to help create Palestian prosperity. Make the world know that Israel, at least truly wants peace, and that it is willing to "take it on the chin" in order to get it.
But, that would require maturity by both sides; courage and risk. Nah, forget it".
mntyoung that is essentially what I have been advocating for all along.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
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Don't presume to know what I "realize" Philo - I'll bet I can recite more of the last 60 years of middle eastern history from memory than you can, and so whoopedy do. I try to look at both sides. What you can't see is that both sides have been absolutely murderous to each other for (more than) 60 years. It isn't and it never has been the "one way street" you salivate about.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
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I've tried to read and not post Philo. I've been largely successful until today.
Maybe you think my earlier post is "essentially what [you] have been advocating for all along." Maybe, but your comments sure don't read that way. It takes two sides to make peace. Israel is not the only demon here.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Ditto,mtnyoung. Philo can not see through his own rage, that there have been terrible crimes committed by both sides against each other.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Well start reciting youth.
The credentials of my knowledge base have been well explained.
Your turn.
Start by comparing the death totals from violence on both sides.
See how those scales don't level out.
Be careful and diligent though as the message has been manipulated and controlled by one side all along.
Until now that is.
"Ditto,mtnyoung. Philo can not see through his own rage, that there have been terrible crimes committed by both sides against each other".
Another steaming pile Chris2!
Those on ST forum that are advocating on behalf of Palestinian human rights have never denied nor made light of the evils perpetrated by the "OTHER" side.
Neither have we advocated for the destruction of the State of Israel or the annihilation of the Jews.
We have however been explaining the reasons for the intractability of Palestinian resistance. History will not be kind to the Zionist experiment.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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"Well start reciting youth."
Philo, are you referring to me? Thanks, if so. Actually, I'm not that young (I'm 48 now). Young is my last name.
And, no, I'm not going to start reciting history. I have clients waiting and I must go for now. Suffice it to say I could catalog murder and atrocities (and love and reaching out too, on occasion) by both sides. But doing so would add nothing here.
And if the Arab people have suffered more deaths than the Jewish people from these 60 years, what does that mean? Only that they may not be as good at war. Not that they are not equally at fault.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:26pm PT
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“Until now that is?”
Philo, so you think all of your post on this lame named thread, are the voice of the Palestinians and are going to create some sort of change?
I thought you were just ranting.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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"And if the Arab people have suffered more deaths than the Jewish people from these 60 years, what does that mean?"
How about billions of unregulated US tax dollars and unwavering US support for one side only as a starting point.
"Only that they may not be as good at war."
Wow does that speak for it's self!
"Not that they are not equally at fault."
You are right they are not equally at fault.
Who stole who's land?
Who perpetrated the mass expulsion of Arabs
creating a Diaspora People?
Who subjugated, occupied and abused the other?
Who continues on a daily basis to confiscate more land
and progressively imprison the other?
Who can not walk from their homes to
their fields with out the humiliation and intimidation
of check points, shakedowns and random arrest?
Who have been bulldozed alive in their own homes?
Who have been rounded up in mass arrests and
numbered with a sharpie markers?
(more humane than branding I will give them that)
You are right they are not equally at fault!
“Until now that is?”
Philo, so you think all of your post on this lame named thread, are the voice of the Palestinians and are going to create some sort of change?
I thought you were just ranting.
No Chris2 I meant that 21st century electronic capacity make it almost immpossible for Israel to hide the truth.
Though more patriotic Americans like myself who choose to not remain silent is also having a powerful effect.
I meant that we no longer hear only one side.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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Do you need to have the meaning of JDL explained to you? Because it doesn't stand for Jesus Does Love.
I suppose you will try and tell us that the Arab boy in this picture scrawled that vile and retched hate on the wall as propaganda to make Jews look bad.
What ever happened to "NEVER AGAIN"?
I though it was supposed to mean for all humanity.
Or maybe you will want say that what the graphiti artist really meant to write was "Gap" the Arabs. And that the magnanimous Jews plan on giving every Gazan survivor a new pair of designer blue jeans as recompense for slaughtering their children.
Some of you flail around saying that I have been posting hurtfull inflammatory things. Oh really, when and where? I know the truth hurts sometimes and can be hard to swallow. A few of you however have posted very hateful rhetorical comments.
But I challenge all of you to find anything I have posted or pasted that is as bad as you want to say it is. Rather I suspect you don't like and can't assail the message so you maturely turn to attacking the messenger.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Then Jeff why are there still so many living in freedom in Arab and Persian countries today?
The Jews in Iran are not as a matter of policy or practice harassed and abused.
In fact the Jordanian authorities recently protected the Israeli consul building from a mass protest of Jews against the war in Gaza.
One of the largest populations of Jews is in Morocco.
These days I see Israeli ambassadors being expelled but given the slaughter in Gaza why do you suppose we don't see mass expulsions of Jews from Arab nations?
Who are the truly intolerant anti-semites in this in-equal equation?
You guys are obviously running out of ammo. Better have AIPAC tunnel you in some more. Or maybe Condi can airlift more munitions to you.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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Fattrad: "What you fail to mention that more Jews were expelled from Arab countries than all of the Palestinians combined."
Philo: "Then Jeff why are there still so many living in freedom in Arab and Persian countries today?"
There are still a few Jews living in Arab and Persian countries for the same reasons that there are still some Palestinians living in Israel. Not everyone was forced to (or chose to) leave, but the majority were.
Jewish exodus from Arab lands
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century expulsion or mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. According to official Arab statistics, 856,000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s. Some 600,000 resettled in Israel. Their descendants, and those of Iranian and Turkish Jews, now number 3.06 million of Israel's 5.4 to 5.8 million Jewish citizens. [1][not in citation given] The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[2][3] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel). [1][3]
Reasons for emigration
While violence and discrimination against Jews in Arab countries started to increase several years before 1948, it escalated significantly starting in 1948 despite the fact that Jews were indigenous and for the most part held Arab citizenship. Sometimes the process was state sanctioned; at other times it was the consequence of anti-Jewish resentment by non-Jews. Harassment, persecution and the confiscation of property followed. Secondly and in response to mistreatment of Jews in these countries, a Zionist drive for Jewish immigration from Arab lands to Israel intensified. The great majority of Jews in Arab lands eventually emigrated to the modern State of Israel.[4] Activist groups such as JJAC and JIMENA claim that there was a collusion among Arab states to persecute Jews as part of their struggle against Israel.[5]
The process grew apace as Arab nations under French, British and Italian colonial rule or protection gained independence. Further, anti-Jewish sentiment within the Arab-majority states was exacerbated by the Arab-Israeli wars. Within a few years after the Six Day War (1967) there were only remnants of Jewish communities left in most Arab lands. Jews in Arab lands were reduced from more than 800,000 in 1948 to perhaps 16,000 in 1991.[4]
Some claim that the Jewish exodus from Arab lands is a historical parallel to the Palestinian exodus during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, while others reject this comparison as simplistic.[6]
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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MYTH
“Jews who lived in Islamic countries were well-treated by the Arabs.”
FACT
While Jewish communities in Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs. As Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis has written: "The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam."22
Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.23
The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97-98).
Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews. In the ninth century, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.24
At various times, Jews in Muslim lands lived in relative peace and thrived culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death.
When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results. On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.
Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.25
Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.26
Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).27
The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.28
As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:
It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.29
The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world."30
More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.31 This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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Philo likes Einstein. Here is an Einstein quote.
"We Jews are everywhere subject to attacks and humiliations that result from the exaggeration of nationalism and racial vanity, which, in most European countries, expresses itself in the form of aggressive anti-Semitism.
The Jewish national home is not a luxury but an absolute necessity for the Jewish people. Therefore the reply of the Jews to the present difficulties must be a determination to redouble their efforts in Palestine."
Albert Einstein
NYT Dec 3, 1930 Cited in Denis Brian pg 202-203
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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I did not say they were not expelled. I know they were. It is not justification. Rather I asked why do the ones who remained in Arab countries live without extreme harassment ? Why are they not expelled now?
Ron Paul addresses Congress regarding Hamas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPwNk0CJSiY&NR=1
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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When I lived in Morocco I saw more Sephardic Jews walking about shopping and doing their daily business than I do when I go to Denver or Chicago. And I was living there during the Iran Hostage crisis. A fairly tense time in world affairs. I saw no animosity against the Jews then. Why do you suppose that was?
It's is funny but the Embassy told us all that in the event of a related emergency we were to go to the largest most western hotel we could find and await evacuation. Like yeah that's just what I wanted to do. Fools.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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Keep at it Philo. Heh, "The South Shall Rise Again."
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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Jeff you can't even correctly spell the country's name and you know even less about it's history.
Go watch more movies FOOL!
May I suggest the Wind in the Willows.
Then you can tell us all about life for animals.
GC I didn't say I wanted him on my side I just admired his courage in this instance.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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Philo, here's your start to a long rant above (which starts by quoting me):
"'Not that they are not equally at fault.' You are right they are not equally at fault. Who stole who's land?"
Thank you, you've made me see a truth here. Here's the truth. Philo hates. Like too many Gazans and too many Israelis alike, Philo hates and won't let go. All that matters is that the other side is at fault; they are evil. Peace? Sure he'll talk the talk. But if it requires him to stop hating, to stop blaming, to stop villifying the other side, and maybe, perhaps to find some fault with the side that he identifies with, well the walk ain't ever gonna match the talk.
Philo, you're a hating fool. You are the reason there won't be peace in the Middle East. You and the fact that there are too many Palestinians and too many Israelis that think just like you do. There isn't a lick of difference between you (personally) and the IDF soldiers you find so repulsive.
You're simply not worth engaging anymore. Good luck to you in the future. I hope you can let go and find peace. I hope the people in the Middle East can do the same.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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"Philo, you're a hating fool. You are the reason there won't be peace in the Middle East. You and the fact that there are too many Palestinians and too many Israelis that think just like you do. There isn't a lick of difference between you (personally) and the IDF soldiers you find so repulsive".
Pull-ease. How ignorant are you?
3,2,1,C ya
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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"I've often cited Morroco as a wonderful Islamic country, of course we (US) put the current rulers on the throne."
You might want to re-check your info Jeff.
Ignorance married with arrogance will be your downfall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Mohammed_VI
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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The current dynasty took possession of the throne in the mid 17th century. They had a legitimate claim as direct descendants of Muhammad and Fatima.
America was a big player in world politics then huh DaftRat.
Jeff has never been one to let the messiness of truth get in his way.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
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Fat not only can't spell, but gets his facts wrong?! No way.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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OMG are they gonna do it?
OK but no tongue on a first date.
Here is their "Love Child".
And here is the one they "adopted"
If only they would have to wake in Gaza tomorrow for the rest of their lives.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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Good see ya Skippy!
Unbelievable!
First I am accused of being the reason Palestinians are dying.
Now I have some ideological ambition that is more important to me to "further" than the loss of innocent lives. Do you guys have any clue how foolish you sound?
As I said you can't assail the message so you attack the messenger. Very mature.
The more of you meat heads that acquiesce through attrition the better.
But FYI I am not going anywhere.
So to quote your neocon hero "bring it on".
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:33pm PT
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More time and money wasted Skip?
What would you have me do sit back in silence like all the good Germans did?
You guys never make or prove a point. You just need to vilify me for the message I won't relinquish.
So your opinion of me means diddly squat. I for one will not sit back silently.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
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I wouldn't expect you to sit quietly Philo. What Skip is tuning into is the level of emotion and anger that's coming through more clearly in your recent posts.
It could be perfectly warranted and true, but to those who aren't already convinced, it sounds more one-sided and hateful. Good therapy for you but counter-productive for what you wish to communicate.
Sort of like when the news sees the Muslim rage on the streets. They might have just lost a leader to targeted assassination or a neighborhood to bulldozers but the Western public sees the frenzy of rage and feels fear and alienation rather than sympathy.
Worth thinking about
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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True and well said Karl. The difference with me is that I am capable of thinking about it. None of you have a grasp of what today has been like for my family.
So I have little concern that I am upsetting these disingenuous misanthropic xenophobes.
How can I tone down my anger over this unjust slaughter?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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http://current.com/items/89666922/gaza_rockets.htm
The outcome was a foregone conclusion. I wonder if the film crew knows how close they came to becoming victims of a self initiated immolation ?
Do they still get the black eyed virgins if they are shahidi's of stupidity?
We built better quality rockets in HS general Science class. And didn't come near that close (several times in the clip) to killing ourselves.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 16, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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"How can I tone down my anger over this unjust slaughter?"
If you, sitting in Denver, can't tone down your anger, then there is no hope for those in the Middle East.
You don't negotiate with a rabid dog, you shoot it. It's not the dog's fault that it got rabies, but that does not matter.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jan 17, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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I'm beginning to think Philo gets a sexual buzz out of all those pictures posted over and over. Anyone else get a sense how he becomes agitated in his posts after the pics show up? Philo, have you ever worked in a morgue or funeral parlor? There certainly is an odd obsession here. Philo, post the pics again. Check your pulse before and after.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Jan 17, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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really well put granite. that hits the nail RIGHT on the head. for me anyhow. the sad truth is still the truth...
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 17, 2009 - 12:29am PT
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Woody you are pathetic!
What a sick and perverse thing to say.
Where the Hell do you get off?
Take your convoluted reality and, to quote Frank Zappa, Ram it ram it ram it up your poop shoot.
And Karl I do agree with you.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 17, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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Qatar breaks off relations with Israel over Gaza operation
By Reuters
Tags: Hamas, Qatar, Gaza
Qatar said on Friday it had frozen its ties with Israel and would ask the Israel to close its trade office in Doha and its staff to leave within a week.
Qatar is the only Gulf Arab state to have ties with Israel.
Prime Minister Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim al-Thani said the office could be reopened if the situation improved.
Advertisement
Al-Jazeera reported earlier on Friday that Mauritania had broken off relations with Israel as well.
Also on Friday, Turkey's prime minister on Friday said Israel should be barred from the United Nations while it ignores the body's calls to stop fighting in Gaza.
Bolivian President Evo Morales said on Wednesday that his country is breaking diplomatic tiesbreaking diplomatic ties with Israel over its 19-day-old campaign in Gaza, and said he will ask the International Criminal Court to bring genocide charges against top Israeli officials.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jan 17, 2009 - 01:42am PT
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Who me? Come on Philo post them up again, and again and again....
I'm sure Hamas wants you to do it. After all, they went to all that trouble embedding themselves among civilians so you'd have plenty of dead to exploit.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 17, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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"After all, they went to all that trouble embedding themselves among civilians so you'd have plenty of dead to exploit".
So it is inane and deliberately repeated propaganda like this that you adamantly pro Israeli supporters continuously throw out that are over the top.
You don't respond to these misinformed miscreants and tell them to back off.
Yet you want to say that I am responsible for dead babies and continuation of the slaughter.
Please spare me the dialectic of your rhetoric.
So what riled you all up?
Was it my referencing IDF soldiers to pork products?
Or was it my tongue in cheek fun poking at Tsipi and Condi?
For which I am now supposedly anti gay.
Or is it that in response to the hate speech of others I post up factual accounts from Israeli sources that you can not deny?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 17, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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Skip my point was not to disparage gays but rather to point out how intrinsically "in bed" Israel and America are.
So, Like Israel, I am going to declare a uni-lateral cease fire. Not because i have nothing left to say but because I would like to see things cool down.
But, like Israel, I won't be leaving. I will stay and monitor the situation. I will consider any "rocket fire" as a deliberate and mean spirited provocation and will respond accordingly.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jan 17, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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I do hope the Israelis keep going and not stop too soon. Grind Hamas down to dust; otherwise, it will all start again once they've rearmed.
Now, here is what much of the anti-Israel mob is doing around the world: http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=230
What an attractive, enlightened group. I'd very much like to see this grow to the point where they pass over the tipping point. I'd like to see them violently rioting, burning cars, attacking opponents and police, throwing Molotov Cocktails, particularly here in the states. Let's get with it and have it out; it's coming anyway so the sooner the better. Western Europe can watch what happens here to get some pointers on how to scrub out the infection.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 17, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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Good analogy to the point where you have to wonder about the wisdom of attacking symptoms instead of causes.
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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Philo - grande kudo's to you pal, you've done a sterling job although i'll urge you to keep the good fight going. This well oiled Zionist/Nazi propaganda machine (thanks to US taxpayer's money) is very adept at wearing down the opposition as you well know. They commit their Holocaust on the Palestinians and then sound off conciliatory at the end of the massacre so as to placate the general public until the next round of mass murder. Personally, i feel that Israel's slaughter of innocent men, women & especially children has 'touched' some on this forum who would otherwise have let it go as "biznis' as usual. Sadly, most folks in this country will never get beyond the bullshit that is the "Exodus".
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jan 17, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Posting in a Jewish Nazi thread.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 19, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
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This explains the preponderance of HUGE secondary explosions.
The Israel air force demolished two key Hamas war systems in the first 4 minutes of its massive offensive on Gaza Saturday morning, Dec. 27, DEBKAfile's military sources report. The bombers destroyed six mosques in Gaza City which held the terrorists' biggest weapons arsenals and scores of "beehives" containing launchers primed for the simultaneous, automatic release of hundreds of powerful rockets against Israeli cities.
These launchers were rigged for precision-targeting in Israeli town centers. They were operated by a unit of 300 special Hamas operatives trained for their mission at a Syrian military bases under the instruction of Hizballah rocket specialists.
The aerial offensive knocked out 80 percent of the rockets Hamas had prepared to launch and saved Israel's southern cities. The Palestinian Islamists were left only with inferior projectiles. Therefore, 98 percent of the hundreds of missiles they managed to fire in the 22-day war missed their targets and exploded in open ground.
Answering questions about the extreme destruction wrought in Gaza and the high number of casualties – more than 1,300 - Israel commanders described combat conditions as the most complicated they had ever faced: Every second apartment building was booby-trapped and every third building concealed arms caches. Weapons were concealed under children's beds and in basements. Inside of fighting out in the open, Hamas gunmen by and large avoided engaging Israeli troops, relying on these death traps.
Monday, Jan. 19, the second day of the ceasefire, the second-echelon of the Hamas leadership emerged from their fortified bunkers after three weeks underground, claiming they had vanquished the Israeli enemy. The top leaders remained invisible. The homeless people picking their way through the rubble for their broken possessions were not exactly welcoming.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 19, 2009 - 11:45pm PT
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TGT: Your source?
skipt seems to have a wealth of sardonic cartoons.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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What did Israel accomplish? Israel is withdrawing but Hamas is still in control. Their survival will be seen as a big "victory" by the locals and the Arab world.
Hamas lost some men, but they can replace them.
$1.5 billion in infrastructure was destroyed, but Saudi Arabia has already promise $1 billion to rebuild.
Many tunnels were damaged or destroyed but they will be repaired or rebuilt. Hamas will use the tunnels to smuggle in new weapons to replace the ones they lost.
Many Palestinians will hate the Israelis more then they already did? (The pictures of dead children will do that.)
So what did Israel accomplish?
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Jan 20, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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They disabled some rockets before they were fired.
Period.
Oh, and killed a few people.
Those rockets have killed fewer people this year than Mexican Drug Cartels have killed Americans, (narcosphere reports 5612 human deaths from the druggies in 2008)
US could take a lesson from Israel because democracy says people are voting with their dollars, keeping the drug guys essentially more powerful than the mexican government and they aren't only killing people with guns but I have a few dead acquaintences as a result of the drugs as well. So would the US invading Mexico and bombing the crap out of it be an equivalent action?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 09:54am PT
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Gandhi on Jews & Middle-East
A Non-Violent Look at Conflict & Violence
Article Written on November 20, 1938
Published in Harijan on November 26, 1938
This Web Page Last Updated: January 15,2009
It is of utmost importance to remember the time of this writing. It is 1938, Hitler is ruling Germany, and the clouds of a terrible conflict have begun to form. Gandhi's article shows his incredible sense of right and wrong, his blind faith in his methodology, and his profound vision of things to come. -Ed.
by Mohandas K. Gandhi
Several letters have been received by me asking me to declare my views about the Arab-Jew question in Palestine and the persecution of the Jews in Germany. It is not without hesitation that I venture to offer my views on this very difficult question.
My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships, therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for the Jews.
But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?
Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.
The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French. If the Jews have no home but Palestine, will they relish the idea of being forced to leave the other parts of the world in which they are settled? Or do they want a double home where they can remain at will? This cry for the national home affords a colorable justification for the German expulsion of the Jews.
But the German persecution of the Jews seems to have no parallel in history. The tyrants of old never went so mad as Hitler seems to have gone. And he is doing it with religious zeal. For he is propounding a new religion of exclusive and militant nationalism in the name of which many inhumanity becomes an act of humanity to be rewarded here and hereafter. The crime of an obviously mad but intrepid youth is being visited upon his whole race with unbelievable ferocity. If there ever could be a justifiable war in the name of and for humanity, a war against Germany, to prevent the wanton persecution of a whole race, would be completely justified. But I do not believe in any war. A discussion of the pros and cons of such a war is therefore outside my horizon or province.
But if there can be no war against Germany, even for such a crime as is being committed against the Jews, surely there can be no alliance with Germany. How can there be alliance between a nation which claims to stand for justice and democracy and one which is the declared enemy of both? Or is England drifting towards armed dictatorship and all it means?
Germany is showing to the world how efficiently violence can be worked when it is not hampered by any hypocrisy or weakness masquerading as humanitarianism. It is also showing how hideous, terrible and terrifying it looks in its nakedness.
Can the Jews resist this organized and shameless persecution? Is there a way to preserve their self-respect, and not to feel helpless, neglected and forlorn? I submit there is. No person who has faith in a living God need feel helpless or forlorn. Jehovah of the Jews is a God more personal than the God of the Christians, the Musalmans or the Hindus, though, as a matter of fact in essence, He is common to all the one without a second and beyond description. But as the Jews attribute personality to God and believe that He rules every action of theirs, they ought not to feel helpless. If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German may, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment . And for doing this, I should not wait for the fellow Jews to join me in civil resistance but would have confidence that in the end the rest are bound to follow my example. If one Jew or all the Jews were to accept the prescription here offered, he or they cannot be worse off than now. And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy which no number of resolutions of sympathy passed in the world outside Germany can. Indeed, even if Britain, France and America were to declare hostilities against Germany, they can bring no inner joy, no inner strength. The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant. For to the god fearing, death has no terror. It is a joyful sleep to be followed by a waking that would be all the more refreshing for the long sleep.
It is hardly necessary for me to point out that it is easier for the Jews than for the Czechs to follow my prescription. And they have in the Indian satyagraha campaign in South Africa an exact parallel. There the Indians occupied precisely the same place that the Jews occupy in Germany. The persecution had also a religious tinge. President Kruger used to say that the white Christians were the chosen of God and Indians were inferior beings created to serve the whites. A fundamental clause in the Transvaal constitution was that there should be no equality between the whites and colored races including Asia tics. There too the Indians were consigned to ghettos described as locations. The other disabilities were almost of the same type as those of the Jews in Germany. The Indians, a mere handful, resorted to satyagraha without any backing from the world outside or the Indian Government. Indeed the British officials tried to dissuade the satyagrahis (soldiers of non-violence) from their contemplated step. World opinion and the Indian Government came to their aid after eight years of fighting. And that too was by way of diplomatic pressure not of a threat of war.
But the Jews of Germany can offer satyagraha under infinitely better auspices than Indians of South Africa. The Jews are a compact, homogeneous community in Germany. they are far more gifted than the Indians of South Africa. And they have organized world opinion behind them. I am convinced that if someone with courage and vision can arise among them to lead them in nonviolent action, the winter of their despair can in the twinkling of an eye be turned into the summer of hope. And what has today become a degrading man-hunt can be turned in to a calm and determined stand offered by unarmed men and women possessing the strength of suffering given to them by Jehovah. It will be then a truly religious resistance offered against the godless fury of dehumanized man. The German Jews will score a lasting victory over the German gentiles in the sense that they will have converted that latter to an appreciation of human dignity. They will have rendered service to fellow-Germans and proved their title to be the real Germans as against those who are today dragging, however unknowingly, the German name into the mire.
And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going about it the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart. The same God rules the Arab heart, who rules the Jewish heart. They can offer satyagraha in front of the Arabs and offer themselves to be shot or thrown in to the Dead Sea without raising a little finger against them. They will find the world opinion in the their favor in their religious aspiration. There are hundreds of ways of reasoning with the Arabs, if they will only discard the help of the British bayonet. As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them.
I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.
Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth. Every country is their home including Palestine, not by aggression but by loving service. A Jewish friend has sent me a book called The Jewish Contribution to Civilization by Cecil Roth. It gives a record of what the Jews have done to enrich the word's Literature, art, music, drama, science, medicine, agriculture, etc. Given the will, the Jews can refuse to be treated as the outcaste of the West, to be despised or patronized. He can command the attention and respect of the world by being man, the chosen creation of God, instead of being man who is fast sinking to the brute and forsaken by God. They can add to their many contributions the surpassing contribution of non-violent action.
© 1987 Navajivan Trust.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jan 20, 2009 - 11:21am PT
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"These launchers were rigged for precision-targeting in Israeli town centers. They were operated by a unit of 300 special Hamas operatives trained for their mission at a Syrian military bases under the instruction of Hizballah rocket specialists."
Pleeez...Hamas fired off 1,200 rockets last year and killed less than 10 Israelis. Hardly "precision-targeting".
The IDF's response was grossly disproportionate and basically a slaughter.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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You are an idiot jeff. Gandhi was absolutely aware of what was going on. When the average American refused to believe the stories coming out of Poland Gandhi was lobbying the US administration to get involved to stop this human attrocity. He never wavered in his opposition to a Jewish ONLY homeland in Palestine.
By the way my wife's best friend and co-conspirator in the peace movement in Palestine/Israel The honorably Rabbi Firestone and her husband are on the podium with Obama at this very moment by his personal invitation. I know you know who she is since you JDL and AIPAC types despise her for her progressive views. She is a vastly braver human than you or all the IDF soldiers combined. Guess what you lose! A new day is dawning. Thank GOD!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
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Your desperation shows like a plumber's butt crack. Just say NO to crack!
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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Jeff,
Face it you are morally and intellectually bankrupt.
Your ideas are like month old fish in the sun - they stink!
Work with the world for good for ALL not just your Zionist bretheren.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
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My post from the Gandhi-Middle East thread. (cause fatty dropped my name)
There is no doubt that Israel was created by the force of British colonialism. Why even try to dispute that?
We always suffer from the reverberations from the past of slavery and oppression that the round of ignorant exploitation that previous generations left us with.
Wars like Vietnam were the direct result of defending colonial invasions alleged to spread Christianity, civilization or sometimes even the glory of conquest itself.
Of course, it's not like the West and Christianity came up with the Idea. War used to be the sport of kings, and Muslims swept over the globe, along with Greeks and Romans.
Humans have always been destructive little children with few real morals outside of sexual inhibition. It's time to grow up. Today, inauguration day, is as a good a time as any to ask for justice.
Justice will have to come fresh because our pasts have been tainted by layer after layer of successive injustices. There is no restoring the past. Only moving on better than before.
Peace
Karl
edit: From Obama's speech"
"We remain a young nation, but in the words of Scripture, the time has come to set aside childish things. The time has come to reaffirm our enduring spirit; to choose our better history; to carry forward that precious gift, that noble idea, passed on from generation to generation: the God-given promise that all are equal, all are free, and all deserve a chance to pursue their full measure of happiness."
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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"I do, I want the Palestinians to have a prosperous country on the WB and Gaza. "
Lip service, Jeff, lip service. That's all.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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"There is no doubt that Israel was created by the force of British colonialism. Why even try to dispute that?"
No more then the Palestinians in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza are the result of Ottoman and Islamic imperialism.
And let's not forget how many Israelis were pushed out of other Middle Eastern countries. They played a major role in creating Israel.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:50pm PT
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The ONLY solution for a Just Peace in the ME is a one state solution.
A unified secular democracy fully inclusive of ALL citizens.
Israel will likely need to be forced by a united world opinion to accept that solution.
It is more than possible.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
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DaftRAT You have NEVER been right. You are not right now. Except right wing.
Biden was talking about the unjust invasion of Gaza.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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"Israel will pre-emptively attack the Iran nuke sites."
I pray for this day, Jeff.
So that the Zionist regime will be wiped from the face of the map.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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Hey DaftRat; how do you explain the horrendous double standard in Tsipi Livni's incessant railing on the Palestinians as terrorists, while she herself is the daughter of two of the most infamous Irgun gang terrorists. Her daddy was the scum behind the bombing of the King David hotel. Killed a lot of innocent civilians that day. Curiously they dressed as Arabs because no one thought suspiciously of the Arabs then. It was the radicalized Jews who were held in suspicion in those days. Now Tsipi calls the Palestinian Kafiyah as the flag of terrorism. What a female HOUND.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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So something to think about...
At this weekend's rally in Denver for support of the Palestinians a group of pro Israeli dancers showed up to cause distraction. I am all in favor of free speech. But reverse the rolls. How would it be perceived if 1300 Jews had been slaughtered and a handful of Arabs showed up to a peace full protest and started dancing?
I don't think it would go down as well or be as tolerated as it did it Denver.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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INTERNAL POLITICS? REALLY?
So it's OK for israelis to be terrorists when it suits THEIR goals, but it is never OK for Arabs?
How many past Israeli Prime Ministers have their hands soaked in the blood of terrorism?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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And don't complain when the primitive rockets fly either. Right Jeff?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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Israel uses depleted uranium on civilians in Gaza!
http://www.infowars.com/?p=6990
How FAIR!
While the "cease fire" holds the Israeli navy continues to shell the coastal water off the coast of Gaza. The IAF continues to fly drones overhead night and day . And the F 16s swoop low and drop their counter measure flares and flak on the heads of the devastated Gazans.
How very fair.
Jeff lets take a trip together. I will follow you through Israel and you can follow me through the ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED territories. What do you say big man? Got balls?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
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"There is no doubt that Israel was created by the force of British colonialism. Why even try to dispute that?"
The current iteration of Israel yes, but people have been fighting over that chunk of desert for thousands of years. Sure some on each side thinks they have some kind of divine rights, but in reality that part of the world has changed hands over and over and over.
That land belongs to Arabs and Jews. They need to share it. But radical as#@&%es on both sides can't see that and compromise.
One state solution will not work. The Jews would have far too much power.
Two state solution may work. But it's going to be up to the Jews who have the power in this situation to give the Palestinians a good break. And the Palestinians aren't helping their cause with terrorism.
A 3 state solution may work. Have Egypt run Gaza, and Jordan run the west bank. It's better than what's going on now.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
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Sorry Fet you are wrong! A one state solution is the only answer. A secular and inclusive democracy that benefits ALL people.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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HAHAHAHA Another bubble in the bat tub.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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It would be nice if 10-20+ years down the line after a lasting peace it could return to 1 state, like Germany did.
But in inclusive democracy with all the built up hatred, with all the power concentrated on one side, and crazies on the other side who think they are justified killing innocent people. inclusive democracy ain't gonna happen.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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It did in South Africa! It Will in the ME.
Perhaps we should divest from Israel as we did in South Africa. That ended Apartheid and freed Nelson Mandella. It would also end the occupation and free Marwan Barghouti from Israeli prison. He is the one likely person who could unite the Palestinians in a peace effort.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
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"It would be nice if 10-20+ years down the line after a lasting peace it could return to 1 state, like Germany did.
But in inclusive democracy with all the built up hatred, with all the power concentrated on one side, and crazies on the other side who think they are justified killing innocent people. inclusive democracy ain't gonna happen."
It's a huge hurdle before humans on opposite sides of things can learn to accept each other, trust each other, and live together.
We can work toward that day and trust that it may one day happen, because such must be our destiny if we are to survive as living beings. Our power to kill gets stronger and more widespread every day.
We must never lose sight of this goal nor empower those who seek only to defeat the other side without a plan to heal them or include their interests, because any people who live in the denial of the world will inevitably surface with violence and mayhem.
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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UncleDoug:
""Israel will pre-emptively attack the Iran nuke sites."
I pray for this day, Jeff.
So that the Zionist regime will be wiped from the face of the map."
I know that there are people who want to see all of the Israelis completely annihilated, but I didn't realize that there were people who desired this so much that they pray every day for a nuclear war to make it happen.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
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He said "the Zionist Regime".He said nothing about annihilating all jews.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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" It did in South Africa! It Will in the ME."
South Africa was a lot less divided then the Israelis and the Palestinians. Also, the whites gave up power only because they were confident that the blacks would treat them fairly and not try to "wipe them off the map." The Palestinians have a lot to learn from Mandela and the South Africans.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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Are you kidding GC? The minority white South Africans were terrified that the Black majority would swarm over them taking their land and lives. The ongoing propaganda declared this daily. Didn't happen did it?
The Palestinians face a situation not unlike the Blacks of the segregationist South.
The demonization of the Palestinians is much like the character assassination of MLK by J E Hoover.
[Hoover was one of the vilest pigs in the history of the US]
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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"My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszów. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."
Gerald Kaufman, British Labour MP (YouTube link)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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DaftRat that as you know is a lousy example particularly as you have no idea what country you are talking about. Or for that matter what you are talking about at all.
I will NEVER give up Jeff as I have Truth and Justice on my side.
You however should concede now and save your self the pain of inevitable exposure as a fraud. Your arguments are tired and hackneyed and FALSE.
Still I would likely enjoy a glass of good wine and a chat.
So when do you want to book our sojourn to the ME?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 20, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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"Are you kidding GC? The minority white South Africans were terrified that the Black majority would swarm over them taking their land and lives."
There must have been many hardliners who wanted to keep apartheid and believed that the black majority would (as you put it) "swarm over them taking their land and lives." But a majority of whites--the whites in control of the country--did not believe this. That is why they were willing to transfer power to Mandela.
Compare Mandela's positions at the time to those of the Hamas leadership. The Palestinians have a lot to learn from Mandela and the South Africans. (The Israelis too.)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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The Apartheid state branded Mandella a terrorist and jailed him for decades. He was beaten, tortured and threatened with death daily. His compassion for peace was greater than his hate and animosity.
South Africa changed their stripes ONLY because the world wide divestment shook their economy and future to the ground.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Another bath tub bubble. Dude your full of beans.
Will you ever drop the dogma and rhetoric and address my points directly?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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fattrad,
The African state you're thinking of is Zimbabwe (then Rhodesia).
John
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 09:53pm PT
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"I know that there are people who want to see all of the Israelis completely annihilated, but I didn't realize that there were people who desired this so much that they pray every day for a nuclear war to make it happen. "
graniteclimber,
You have your head up your a*# just like Jeff!
This is exactly what Jeff wants for the Palestinians, the Iranians, the Saudis, and and all Arabs or anyone who believes in Islam - he just does not have the balls to say it straight out due to his "political ambitions" and associations.
All the posts he has made, if you want to go back and get up to speed, all conjoin to make this statement.
All I do is just mirror Jeff and his ilk from the other side of things.
(If you have not figured this out by now, WHEW!!!)
And yes it is very provocative.
If you want to condemn me, you had better be condemning Jeff and his ilk at the same time otherwise you are truly f*#ked up - just as much as Hammas, Ahmedinejad,Al Quaeda, the current Israeli government and Jeff!
Otherwise you are upholding the double standard that has mired the US in a world view that is not favorable to the everyday human being and has rendered the US impotent when it comes to foreign policy that can actually have a positive effect.
Please prove me wrong on this, about you!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
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Just as Christianity was a reform of Judaism? And Islam a reform of both Christianity and Judaism?
It might be very hard to assess whether the 'reformed' Christian brands (e.g. Protestantism) are different let alone better in attitude toward Judaism than Roman Catholics.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 21, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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"All I do is just mirror Jeff and his ilk from the other side of things."
No, you make Fattrad sound moderate and reasonable.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jan 21, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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How are Israelis Nazis again?
1200
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 04:29am PT
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Last update - 07:37 21/01/2009
Israeli human rights activists: Arrest Olmert, Livni, and Barak for war crimes
By Ofri Ilani
Tags: Ehud Barak, Hamas, Gaza
Anonymous self-described Israeli human rights activists have set up an Internet site detailing alleged war crimes committed by senior government officials and Israel Defense Forces officers. No known human rights organization is behind the site, whose founders refuse to give their names.
The site, www.wanted.org.il, includes "arrest orders," complete with pictures and personal details, for Defense Minister Ehud Barak, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai, Public Security Minister Avi Dichter, National Infrastructure Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi and his two predecessors, Dan Halutz and Moshe Ya'alon, former air force commander Eliezer Shkedy and others. It also explains how to inform the International Criminal Court in The Hague of when the "suspects" are outside Israel, and hence vulnerable to arrest.
The "arrest order" for Barak, for instance, states: "On December 27, 2008, the suspect ordered an aerial assault on all of Gaza's population centers. The assault included hundreds of sorties by fighter jets that dropped hundreds of tons of bombs on residential areas of Gaza, which led to the deaths of 1,200 people - men, women and children. Some 5,300 people were wounded and hundreds of thousands became refugees. On December 10, 2008, a formal complaint was filed against Ehud Barak to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Holland ... on suspicion of war crimes and crimes against humanity because of the siege of Gaza."
Israel accused of war crimes
Israel insists all weapons used complied with international law [GALLO/GETTY]
Human rights group Amnesty International has accused Israel of war crimes, saying its use of white phosphorus munitions in densely populated areas of the Gaza Strip was indiscriminate and illegal.
The accusations from the London-based organisation came as the scale of the destruction caused by the Israeli assault on the Palestinian territory overwhelmed Gazans.
Amnesty is not the first group to accuse Israel of using white phosphorus.
Human Rights Watch made the accusation on January 10 and the UN has also said Israel used the munition during its offensive in Gaza.
Donatella Rovera, a researcher with Amnesty, said: "Such extensive use of this weapon in Gaza's densely populated residential neighbourhoods is inherently indiscriminate."
"Its repeated use in this manner, despite evidence of its indiscriminate effects and its toll on civilians, is a war crime," she said.
Ample evidence
The use of white phosphorus is not prohibited under international law, but the indiscriminate use of any weapon in an area crowded with civilians could be used as the basis to make war crimes charges, legal experts have said.
In video
Unearthing Gaza's destruction
Israel's scorched earth tactics Israel said last week that all weapons used during its three-week campaign in Gaza complied with international law, but said it would carry out an internal investigation following Amnesty's accusations.
"In response to the claims ... relating to the use of phosphorus weapons, and in order to remove any ambiguity, an investigative team has been established in southern command to look into the issue," the Israeli army said.
Amnesty's accusations are made on the basis of an on-the-ground study by Chris Cobb-Smith, a British weapons expert who visited Gaza as part of a four-person Amnesty team following the start of a ceasefire on Sunday.
Cobb-Smith said he had found widespread evidence of the use of the incendiary material.
"We saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still-burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army," he said in a statement.
"White phosphorus is a weapon intended to provide a smokescreen for troop movements on the battlefield. It is highly incendiary, air burst and its spread effect is such that it should never be used on civilian areas."
'War crimes'
When white phosphorous lands on skin it burns through muscle and into the bone, continuing to burn unless deprived of oxygen.
Amnesty said that one of the places worst-affected by the use of white phosphorous munitions was the UN Relief and Works Agency compound in Gaza, which Israel shelled on January 15.
In another incident on the same day, a white phosphorus shell landed in the al-Quds hospital in Gaza City, causing a fire and forcing hospital staff to evacuate patients.
At the time, the UN had accused Israel of using white phosphorus, but the Israeli army refused to comment.
Israel faces potential claims in international courts for its actions in Gaza, where it launched an offensive against Hamas on December 27 with the stated aim of stopping the Palestinian group from firing rockets into Israel.
Tzipi Livni, Israel's foreign minister, said on Monday that she was "at peace" with the actions Israel had taken during the conflict
Of Course Livni is "at peace" with the Israeli actions she is the daughter of the royalty of Israeli terrorists.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:31am PT
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I guess I'll make a contribution to Philo's little cut and paste fest.
"Humiliated Hamas Lashes Out
January 21, 2009: Hamas thought they were invulnerable to Israeli attack. By placing so many of their military and government facilities in densely populated residential neighborhoods, they believed any Israeli bombing or shelling would cause high, and politically unacceptable, civilian losses. But the Israelis used surprise, more precision than expected, and innovations like calling civilians in the target area and telling them to get out before the bombs hit nearby. As a result, most of the 1,300 Palestinian dead were Hamas personnel, and nearly all the damaged structures were those used by Hamas. The Palestinians cranked up the spin machine anyway, and accused the Israelis of war crimes and genocide. But Israel responded with a media campaign featuring aerial videos of Hamas fighters setting up mortars and rockets next to schools and residential neighborhoods. This didn't stop the usual alliance of leftists, anti-Semites and Islamic radicals from calling Israel names. But the mud didn't stick nearly as much as in the past. It's as if the Israeli campaign was seeking to humiliate and discredit Hamas, as much as it was to destroy military and government assets.
Dozens of senior Hamas officials were killed by smart bomb attacks. The families of these Hamas leaders often died as well. Israel ignored Hamas attempts to protect its leaders by surrounding them with women and children in residential areas. What dismayed Hamas the most was Israel finding the location of their officials. Even before the ceasefire took effect on the 18th, Hamas death squads were rounding up the usual suspected (members of rival Fatah, and anyone else unlucky enough to be suspect) for torture and execution. The UN did not pay much attention to this, as it has been going on for over two years in Gaza. In that time, over 400 Fatah members have been killed by Hamas death squads, and many more Fatah (and any other Hamas rivals) tortured, wounded or jailed. Hamas apparently didn't realize that there were other ways to get target locations, besides informants on the ground. But all they understood was informants, so Hamas went after informants, and Hamas felt better after. But the bombings continued.
Israel believes it has destroyed 60 percent of the 200 or so smuggling tunnels that bring weapons (particularly long range rockets for attacks on Israeli civilians) into Gaza. Israel wants Israeli or American sensors and technicians prowling the Egyptian border to detect all the tunnels, and for Egyptian border guards to destroy them. Hamas opposes this (as do many Egyptian officials, especially the ones who benefit from the bribes of the tunnel operators). Negotiations continue.
Ultimately, Hamas found that hiding their senior leadership in hospitals or orphanages offered the best protection from Israeli attack. Weapons and key items of military equipment could also be stored there. Hamas apparently exercised some restraint, in to what degree they took over these institutions for military purposes. Someone in Hamas began doing the math, and realized that, at a certain point, a hospital full of weapons and Hamas personnel stopped being a hospital to Israeli commanders, and became a prime target.
Israel believes that Hamas had about 3,000 rockets in late December, and that during the 22 day campaign, about 700 of those rockets were fired in the general direction of Israel, while Israeli air (mostly) and ground forces destroyed another 1,300. That leaves Hamas with about 1,000 rockets, and dozens of functioning smuggling tunnels to Egypt through which components for replacement rockets can be moved.
Hamas claimed that Israeli bombs and troops did $1.9 billion worth of damage. It was probably closer to a few hundred million dollars. There were only about a thousand smart bombs used, and many of these were small ones (like the new U.S. 250 pound SDB, which Israel recently received). Hamas claimed that 5,000 homes were destroyed (and 20,000 damaged), along with 16 government buildings and 20 mosques. There are about 147,000 buildings in Gaza. Israel may take another media shot at Hamas by releasing photos of what was actually destroyed, and let Hamas try to dance away from their lies. But that may not be necessary, as Hamas is already the growing target for ridicule in the Arab world. If Israel was trying to get Hamas exposed as a bunch of tyrants, genocidal liars and blowhards, they seem to have succeeded,"
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:43am PT
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amazing to me that you are using south africa as an example of a peaceful transition of power. You guys were joking right?
Why wouldn't you at least check into it before posting" Didn't happen did it? "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8x2olm7Gkc&search=south%20africa%20genocide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks
Since the new South African government came to power in 1994, 1 600 farmers (in excess of 2 000 by 2006) have been murdered, and there have been well in excess of 8 000 farm attacks. Some victims have been horribly tortured, and in many instances, nothing was stolen during the perpetration of the crime. (Since the SA government’s ascendance to power in May 1994, a farm murder has occurred on average once every second day, while there have been on average 77 farm attacks per month).
wrongo bongo apologist, IT DID HAPPEN, IT'S HAPPENING
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:53am PT
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Oh TGT you are such a tool go throw the ratchet.
Fuzzy math and no accreditation.
"As a result, most of the 1,300 Palestinian dead were Hamas personnel,"
So I guess you must believe that the nearly 700 dead children were carrying RPGs.
"Hamas claimed that Israeli bombs and troops did $1.9 billion worth of damage. It was probably closer to a few hundred million dollars."
Anyone with half a brain (which leaves you in the dark) could see from the pictures that vastly more than a few hundred million dollars in damage were done.
This disingenuous attempt at disinformation is par for the course for Israels propaganda machine. Which you clearly have your tongue firmly planted in the o-ring of.
This is the equivalent of me saying that all the dead Israelis were soldiers and that all the Gaza rockets did only a few thousand dollars of damage in Israel.
"If Israel was trying to get Hamas exposed as a bunch of tyrants, genocidal liars and blowhards, they seem to have succeeded,"
Only to a far lesser degree than Israel has been exposed as such to the rest of the world.
"a farm murder has occurred on average once every second day, while there have been on average 77 farm attacks per month)."
Help me out here since "new math" is not my strong suit.
I am sure you would agree that a murder would constitute an attack.
So one every second day and seventy seven a month would mean that a month in mdavidland would last 154 days.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 21, 2009 - 11:03am PT
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Or perhaps more than one murder was commited per attack.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 21, 2009 - 11:14am PT
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"Since the new South African government came to power in 1994, 1 600 farmers (in excess of 2 000 by 2006) have been murdered,"
I expect that you mean "white farmers." You say 2,0000 from 1994 to 2006. During this time how many blacks have been murdered?
South Africa has a high murder rate and some of the victims are white.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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2000 in 12 years is 166 each year. Hardly a blood bath.
By contrast in 1997 highway deaths in Colorado total 717. And that was a three year low. The population of Colorado is approximately 4,301,261. The population of South Africa is approximately 47,900,000 or more than ten times the population of Colorado.
You do the math 166 yearly deaths per 47.9 million people compared to 717 deaths per 4.3 million.
Clearly it is far more dangerous to drive in colorado than it is to be a white farmer in South Africa. As I stated before, hardly a blood bath after the end of Apartheid.
And not damaging to my argument in the least DaftRat.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 21, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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How many is *too many*?
One?
More than one?
Where is the line to be drawn?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
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What are you referring to Chaz?
Auto deaths?
South African deaths?
White deaths?
Black deaths?
Israeli deaths?
Palestinian deaths?
????
How many dead Palestian babies will it take for you to finally draw the line?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
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Chaz's post is funny in it's appearance of thoughtfulness but total lack thereof.
What do you really want to say Chaz? 28 Israeli rocket deaths in 6 years justifies killing many hundreds of Palestinian children (not to speak of adults) in 2 weeks, cause numbers don't matter. Once you kill one, you might as well kill all?
The relatively peaceful transition of South Africa was a miracle. Would you have proposed sticking with apartheid? How many were dying then? How could they have done it better?
PEace
karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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OOOh more math. 28 deaths in six years equals .0127 deaths per day for Israelis.
Where as 1400 deaths in twentyone days equals 66.6 deaths per day for Palestinians in Gaza.
That seems fair doesn't it???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
How many dead Palestinian children will it take for some of you to acknowledge that Arabs are humans too?
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 21, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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You all have answered your own questions.
Consider it may not be a matter of a cumulative number so much as the persistent nature of the problem.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
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YES THEY DO DAFTRAT! Yes they do.
They have been repeatedly condemned for marching Palestinian boys in front of them at gun point when they perpetrate incursions into refugee camps.
Or does it not count because they are innocent Israelis and the boys are Palestinian terrorists?
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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" the Israeli military doesn't hide behind the women and children."
israel' defense ministry is in downtown tel aviv
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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Skip they don't need to the have Apache Gunships, F 16s, Tanks, warships submarines and drones. They can sit back comfy and warm and insolated from the reality of their actions while they rain down death and destruction. Then go home to a nice glass of Mad Dog 2020. Where else in Gaza can the resistance fighters be? It is all one gigantic civilian population area. Or are you really saying the Palestinians have no right to protect, defend and resist?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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Fatty
Care to bother to deny Israel has researched Biological weapons?
Word has it, they even tried to make em specific to Arabs but I don't have a link
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Where were the huge firestorms that were supposed to result from white phosphorus use? Where are the thousands of burn victims? Either the Israelis did not use white phosphorus or it's not the "weapon of mass destruction" that some people have claimed it is.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000581.htm
Middle East Misinformation: How to believe what you want to believe
04/11/2007
Stalwart supporters of the Iraq war, the Iraq anti-War, the Palestinians and the Israelis may not like what I have to say here, but it has to be said. There is a vast industry in Middle East misinformation, which caters to the need of people to believe what they want to believe, and to believe it quite dogmatically, and exclude any other point of view.
With the help of this industry, the faithful of different causes create a virtual reality that supports their beliefs and excludes the possibility that they might be wrong. The result makes a lot of people quite happy, as ignorance is bliss. It also helps perpetuate the various conflicts in the Middle East by providing rationales for hate. It also makes it fairly hopeless to find solutions to problems in the Middle East, since in the absence of facts, it is impossible to understand the issues or find the best course of action.
Virtual realities are constructed by denying inconvenient facts and inventing others to replace them. Different accounts of the same reality allow you to "choose" what is happening. Shoddy journalists who invent facts and stringers who fake photos provide a good deal of material for partisans. A few industrious fellows like Robert Fisk and Uzi Mahnaimi probably invent a considerable portion of the "news" in the Middle East. Once the canards are out there, they develop a permanent following, regardless of subsequent disproofs. Robert Fisk wrote in the Independent that Israel used a "nuclear bomb" in Lebanon. Investigations by Lebanese and by the UN found no evidence to support Fisk's claim, but many still believe it. Uzi Mahnaimi periodically constructs a virtual Israeli attack on Iran, that will occur using magical weapons that Israel doesn't have, and perhaps some that nobody has. As far as anyone knows, these sensations exist only in his imagination. This past week, a "Washington source" and "Russian intelligence" created a rumor that the US was about to attack Iran. It was illogical and unlikely, but many believed it and it sent the price of oil soaring.
Uzi Manaimi's most infamous "coup" was the canard that Israel had invented a genetically tuned bio-weapon that could kill only Arabs. This science fiction nonsense was believed by supposedly educated people. They insisted that their degrees in political science or sociology gave them a license to belittle or ridicule anyone who pointed out the impossibility of the assertion, and did not think it necessary to consult a genetics textbook. Fox News, Debkafiles, Front Page Magazine and other such "sources" proliferate disinformation of the opposite flavor.
How is the US doing in Iraq? Iraq, like any situation with a lot of unknowns, is disinformation heaven. If you are an anti-War fan, you can point to a rash of suicide bombings. The Red Cross says the situation is getting worse. If you have the opposite opinion, then you can cite Fuad Ajami as a source. He says America is winning the war. In one journal you can read that "100,000" demonstrated against the US in Iraq, in another you can read that tens of thousands or so followers of extremist Moqtada Sadr demonstrated in Najaf. In yet another news source, the demonstration never happened at all. Take your pick. Most of these stories represent honest reporting, but advocates will pay attention only to one version or the other, depending on what they want to believe.
For many weeks, much of the world was convinced that Israel had killed 500 or more Palestinians in Jenin in April of 2002. Even after the claims were disproved, advocates and historians continue to quote this hoax as fact.
Who is at fault for Israeli Palestinian violence? If you want to ignore the Qassam rockets and the occasional suicide bomber who is caught, you can say that Israel is at fault, for constant raids in the West Bank and Gaza and for humiliating Palestinians at checkpoints. The Hamas "kept" the truce - with the help of the IDF. If you ignore the raids in Gaza and the West Bank and the checkpoints, then the Palestinians are at fault.
Most right wing Zionists never heard of any settler violence against Palestinians, or insist that it is the work of a few extremists. Supporters of the Palestinians insist that their violence is the work of extremists too. Nobody is willing to see the tacit or not so tacit support for senseless violence in their own society.
The Deir Yassin massacre of April 9, 1948 is also a case in point. The evidence that innocent civilians were killed there by fighters of the Irgun and Lehi dissidents is massive, and yet on the other hand, there is no evidence whatever that the massacre was planned by the organizations, or that that it was part of any plan by the Zionist organization or leadership. It apparently happened owing to the inexperience of fighters and their commanders. Nonetheless, every year at this time, there are denials by the advocates of one side, and assertions by the other that the massacre was part of any sinister Zionist "ethnic cleansing" plot. Believers can choose whichever version they prefer.
The latest example of this may be the rumor which was floated, that kidnapped BBC reporter Alan Johnston arranged his own kidnapping in Gaza, because he was about to be terminated by the BBC. BBC denied that Johnston was about to be terminated and ruled out the idea that he arranged his own kidnapping. It would have been easy enough to check that Johnston was not being terminated, but the story was so "good" that it was a shame to spoil it. The story exonerates Palestinians, and is therefore seized upon eagerly by true believers of that side.
Disinformation ranges from ordinary honest errors, to somewhat deliberately sloppy reporting, to outright fraud. The Reuters reporter who colored in smoke in photos of attacks on Beirut is a minor example of people improving the data. Fisk's mythical Israeli uranium bomb might be due to wishful thinking and an overactive imagination, to which we may also ascribe the would-be US attack on Iran and some other "events" that never happened. Mahnaimi's ethnobomb was a major effort in this direction. However much of the disinformation is generated on purpose. Journalists may be duped by staged funerals in Jenin, but someone set it up. Usually, if a story is faked, journalists have to make an effort in order not to detect the hoax. Busy activists may mail out thousands of copies of a fake interview with Ariel Sharon, without bothering to check the facts, but someone fabricated that interview from the original fiction by Amos Oz. Others may be spreading rumors about "anti-Semitism" in France from a different hoax e-mail, but someone started the hoax. The hoaxer and the those who spread the word and those who believe it without checking are all equally guilty.
A favorite ploy for neutralizing an inconvenient event is to blame it on the other side. "Our side would not do that, it doesn't make sense." Unfortunately not everything that happens makes sense, but it all happens. However, people insist that the Israeli Mossad or the FBI must be responsible for the bombings of 9-11 and those in London, since it "doesn't make sense" for Muslims to do it. Forensic evidence or confessions don't matter. Once you have found even the flimsiest pretext to believe as you please, it is enough. Likewise, Johnston could not have been kidnapped, because that doesn't make sense either. Therefore perhaps he arranged his own kidnapping or Israelis kidnapped him. The murder of Rafiq Hariri in Lebanon was also blamed on Israel, since it "didn't make sense" that Syria or her supporters would do it.
It is legitimate for different persons to have a different point of view. An Israeli soldier who "liberated" Jerusalem in 1967 surely has a different point of view from an Arab resident of Jerusalem whose cite was "conquered" in 1967. However, the deliberate manufacture and dissemination of untruths, and the tendency to ignore every fact that is inconvenient for a particular point of view, does not support different legitimate narratives, but different and dangerous virtual realities. These should not be legitimized as "narratives."
The journalistic practice of allowing op-eds to contradict known facts with impunity is a massive source of disinformation, but not the only source. "Historians" like Ilan Pappe, who assert that facts are for pedants, help shape it too. But none of these products could be sold without an audience of believers. Those who believe and disseminate hoax letters without checking do so because they want to believe it. Those who believe that Deir Yassin is located on a high ridge, and don't bother to check the geography of Jerusalem, do so because they want to believe it. Those who insisted, and continue to insist, on the reality of Israeli ethnobombs and uranium bombs in Lebanon, are satisfied customers of the hoaxers. These fibs supply a necessary commodity to those who believe them. It is the will to believe that keeps people attached to the media and media gurus who give them the materials to maintain their virtual reality.
Ami Isseroff
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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BS Fattrad and YOU KNOW IT!
The videos are indisputable as to the indiscriminate use of WP. And scores of Gazan victims have radioactive posioning from DU.
DO NOT try to white wash this Jeff. Check some un biased sources for a change.
And since the primary construction material in Gaza firestorms are unlikely as the last time I checked concrete doesn't burn to well.
With the prevailing west to east wind patterns one probable consequence of the use of DU will be that Israel will end up poisoning themselves.
They will of course blame and hold Palestinians responsible for the radioactivity they will be breathing and eating for the next million years.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 21, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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Uh,
It's called DEPLETED Uranium for a reason.
,and there's no evidence they used any.
It's an antiarmor round and it would be a complete waste to use it on hamas.
Lead is just as efficent.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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There's no doubt WP was used, I think Israel admits it...you can see it in video footage.
It was, however, used as defined by the Int'l rules.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
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Well there is a start, Skip acknowledges that there is NO DOUBT that Israel used WP.
But skip look again at the video and then check with Janes. here is NO DOUBT it was used illegally. But since Israel is NOT a signatory to those international treaties concerning the use of WP it was not illegal to them.
Regarding DU there is heaps of evidence it was used in Gaza. I have already posted the information and link to the long term effects of DU on civilian populations. It is grim and disturbing and a vile war crime. Gross birth defects are rampant in the theaters of war where it has been used. Depleted means that it cannot be used as a fuel source or a fissionable material. It is not just a anti-armor weapon. It is also used for deep penetration.
Curiously, but not unexpectedly, the US adamantly denied the use of WP and DU in Afghanistan and Iraq until incontrovertible evidence came to light. As it is in Gaza. Deny it if you feel you must. But like Lucy you'll have a lot of 'splainin' to do later. Like when your kids and grand kids ask you why you didn't speak up against it's use.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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It's a War.
All kinds of mean nasty stuff is used.
That's the whole idea behind a war.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jan 21, 2009 - 10:07pm PT
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As long as they both don't escalate....
to bolts.
If that happens we will have to send in the old guys.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 21, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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"Chaz you mean like primitive rockets and suicide bombers."
If your intention is to bring a knife to a gun-fight, and suffer all the negative consequences included, I guess.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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I always bring a knife to a gun fight. What else are you going to do when the ammo runs out.
But Israel brought a machine gun to a slap fight.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 21, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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US-Egyptian Red Sea ships hunt for Iranian ship carrying 60 tons of arms for Hamas
January 20, 2009, 11:23 AM (GMT+02:00)
Iranian Fajr-5 rocket
US and Egyptian warships were scouring the Gulf of Aden and Red Sea Tuesday, Jan. 20 to waylay an Iranian freighter carrying scores of heavy rockets for delivery to Hamas. DEBKAfile's exclusive sources report they were acting on intelligence that a ship loaded with an estimated 60 tons of arms to replenish Hamas' depleted war stocks had set out from the Iranian Persian Gulf port of Bandar Abbas on Jan. 17.
Our sources reveal that the arms-smuggling vessel started its voyage as the Iran-Hedayat and changed its name in mid sea to Famagustus registered to Panama. The captain was ordered by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards to unload its cargo at a smugglers cove on the southeastern coast of Sinai opposite the Gulf of Suez, to be picked up by armed Bedouin gangs and moved to El Arish in northern Sinai. From there the contraband rockets were to be slipped gradually into the Gaza Strip.
The cargo consists of 50 Fajr rockets whose range is 50-75 km, scores of heavy Grad rockets, new, improved launchers whose angle of fire can be precisely adjusted, tons of high-quality explosives, submachine guns, rifles and pistols and armor-piercing missiles and shells (of types used successfully by Hizballah against Israeli tanks in 2006).
The shipment, the largest Tehran has ever consigned to the Palestinian Hamas in Gaza, includes also a large number of anti-personnel and anti-vehicle mines, equipment for assembling roadside bombs and advanced communications and night vision gear.
(The Palestinian Karin-A arms smuggling ship intercepted by Israel naval commandoes seven years ago carried 50 tons of arms for Fatah).
The Iranian ship aroused suspicions when Western spy satellites and surveillance stations spotted its change of registration after entering the Sea of Oman. Closer observation identified the cargo as a huge arms shipment.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 22, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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January 21st, 2009
U.S. Navy stops weapons ship bound for Hamas
Posted: 08:06 PM ET
From Mike Mount
Senior Pentagon Producer
WASHINGTON (CNN) — The U.S. Navy stopped a ship Monday and found weapons aboard that were bound for Hamas, according to Pentagon officials.
The weapons were found when a boarding team from the USS San Antonio stopped a Cypriot-flagged ship and discovered artillery shells.
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apogee
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 01:52am PT
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Man, I can't believe this thread is coming up fast on the hugely popular 'Who the hell are you people?' thread...wouldn't it be ridiculous if it surpassed the all-time ST record holder, 'South Face Half Dome' thread?
And just think...YOU helped make it happen!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 22, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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Gaza And The Aid Bandits
January 22, 2009: Gaza is turning into another Somalia. That's because Hamas, the Palestinian terrorist group that runs the place, is turning a humanitarian disaster into a business. This has been a growing trend over the past two years, since Hamas won an election that put them in charge of the Palestinian government. For decades, much of the Gaza population has been dependant on aid agencies and food relief to get by. Gaza is, technically, a Palestinian refugee camp. Hamas is, technically, an international terrorist organization (that makes no secret of its goal of killing Jews and destroying Israel.) As a result, European nations cut back on their economic aid to Gaza (which amounts to $700 million a year.)
Hamas responded by imposing its own "taxes." Not quite as bad as Somalia, where, for example, the trucks carrying food to starving Somalis, have to pay "taxes" to the warlords whose territory they pass through. Currently there are nearly 300 roadblocks in southern Somalia. The gunmen charge $20-$500 per truck, depending on what they think the driver can afford.
Hamas does tax, as much as possible, Palestinians working for aid agencies. Also lucrative are the "taxes" imposed on businesses. Even busses and individual cars must pay. Another major source of Hamas revenue is the taxes on the smuggling through the tunnels under the border with Egypt. Most of these tunnels were destroyed during the recent Israeli bombing campaign. In response, Hamas has begun hijacking trucks carrying food and other aid. This will either be used for Hamas members (and their families) or sold in the markets to raise more cash.
What the "aid community" has lost sight of is the fact that the idea that the UN was supposed to be "impartial" was not part of the original UN concept. The original idea was that the Great Powers (the West) would use the UN to maintain order. But since the Great Powers couldn't get along, the UN evolved its own ways. The aid community, and all those NGOs that appeared in the last half century, through they were above politics. Now they have received a reality check, and they don't like it at all. In places like Somalia, the aid organizations plead, unsuccessfully in Somalia, for peacekeepers to protect the aid workers and their supplies. In Gaza, the same appeal is being made. But even Israel does not want to return to controlling Gaza (which they did until 2005). Thus a growing portion of the aid coming in will be forcibly diverted to Hamas, who is desperate to raise cash to pay its key followers (most of them armed) and stay in power.
From Strategy Page
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 12:09pm PT
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Fattrad I am only reiterating what the UN and most of the world's humanitarian agencies, including Israeli ones, are calling for.
You know it is true but are obliged to deny and obfuscate reality to your own ends.
Sorry but the truth hurts.
Didn't you find my Polestinian comment humorous though?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 22, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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"Man, I can't believe this thread is coming up fast on the hugely popular 'Who the hell are you people?' thread...wouldn't it be ridiculous if it surpassed the all-time ST record holder, 'South Face Half Dome' thread?"
What is ridiculous is when people judge a thread by how many posts it has. The 'Who the hell' and 'South face' threads are different threads and the number of posts in this thread does not make them better or worse.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jan 22, 2009 - 02:05pm PT
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Maybe I don't understand the phosphorous debate...but I understand you use it to illuminate, but doesn't it fall to the ground at some point? So using it in a civilian area guarentees or increases incident of contact? Whatever the case, nasty business.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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If the intent was to use WP for illumination then why are there so many videos and still shots of it being used in broad daylight?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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Philo, it's also internationally acceptable to use WP as a 'smokesceen' to conceal troop movement.
Dick, the idea is that the WP burns out by the time it makes groundfall
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Which, obviously if you looked at the videos, was not the case.
Last update - 04:19 22/01/2009
Gideon Levy / Gaza war ended in utter failure for Israel
By Gideon Levy
Tags: Israel News, Gaza, Hamas, IDF
On the morrow of the return of the last Israeli soldier from Gaza, we can determine with certainty that they had all gone out there in vain. This war ended in utter failure for Israel.
This goes beyond the profound moral failure, which is a grave matter in itself, but pertains to its inability to reach its stated goals. In other words, the grief is not complemented by failure. We have gained nothing in this war save hundreds of graves, some of them very small, thousands of maimed people, much destruction and the besmirching of Israel's image.
What seemed like a predestined loss to only a handful of people at the onset of the war will gradually emerge as such to many others, once the victorious trumpeting subsides.
Advertisement
The initial objective of the war was to put an end to the firing of Qassam rockets. This did not cease until the war's last day. It was only achieved after a cease-fire had already been arranged. Defense officials estimate that Hamas still has 1,000 rockets.
The war's second objective, the prevention of smuggling, was not met either. The head of the Shin Bet security service has estimated that smuggling will be renewed within two months.
Most of the smuggling that is going on is meant to provide food for a population under siege, and not to obtain weapons. But even if we accept the scare campaign concerning the smuggling with its exaggerations, this war has served to prove that only poor quality, rudimentary weapons passed through the smuggling tunnels connecting the Gaza Strip to Egypt.
Israel's ability to achieve its third objective is also dubious. Deterrence, my foot. The deterrence we supposedly achieved in the Second Lebanon War has not had the slightest effect on Hamas, and the one supposedly achieved now isn't working any better: The sporadic firing of rockets from the Gaza Strip has continued over the past few days.
The fourth objective, which remained undeclared, was not met either. The IDF has not restored its capability. It couldn't have, not in a quasi-war against a miserable and poorly-equipped organization relying on makeshift weapons, whose combatants barely put up a fight.
The heroic descriptions and victory poems written abut the "military triumph" will not serve to change reality. The pilots were flying on training missions and the ground forces were engaged in exercises that involved joining up and firing weapons.
The describing of the operation as a "military achievement" by the various generals and analysts who offered their take on the operation is plain ridiculous.
We have not weakened Hamas. The vast majority of its combatants were not harmed and popular support for the organization has in fact increased. Their war has intensified the ethos of resistance and determined endurance. A country which has nursed an entire generation on the ethos of a few versus should know to appreciate that by now. There was no doubt as to who was David and who was Goliath in this war.
The population in Gaza, which has sustained such a severe blow, will not become more moderate now. On the contrary, the national sentiment will now turn more than before against the party which inflicted that blow - the State of Israel. Just as public opinion leans to the right in Israel after each attack against us, so it will in Gaza following the mega-attack that we carried out against them.
If anyone was weakened because of this war, it was Fatah, whose fleeing from Gaza and its abandonment have now been given special significance. The succession of failures in this war needs to include, of course, the failure of the siege policy. For a while, we have already come to realize that is ineffective. The world boycotted, Israel besieged and Hamas ruled (and is still ruling).
But this war's balance, as far as Israel is concerned, does not end with the absence of any achievement. It has placed a heavy toll on us, which will continue to burden us for some time. When it comes to assessing Israel's international situation, we must not allow ourselves to be fooled by the support parade by Europe's leaders, who came in for a photo-op with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.
Israel's actions have dealt a serious blow to public support for the state. While this does not always translate itself into an immediate diplomatic situation, the shockwaves will arrive one day. The whole world saw the images. They shocked every human being who saw them, even if they left most Israelis cold.
The conclusion is that Israel is a violent and dangerous country, devoid of all restraints and blatantly ignoring the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council, while not giving a hoot about international law. The investigations are on their way.
Graver still is the damage this will visit upon our moral spine. It will come from difficult questions about what the IDF did in Gaza, which will occur despite the blurring effect of recruited media.
So what was achieved, after all? As a war waged to satisfy considerations of internal politics, the operation has succeeded beyond all expectations. Likud Chair Benjamin Netanyahu is getting stronger in the polls. And why? Because we could not get enough of the war.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 22, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
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What's really cool is that if you Google "Israeli Nazi's" the first-ranked result is:
Israeli Nazi's :: SuperTopo Rock Climbing Discussion Topic
20 posts - Last post: Dec 27, 2008
SuperTopo offers the world's best rock climbing and mountaineering route information for rock climbing in Yosemite, big wall climbing, ...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=751277 - 90k - Cached - Similar pages
There are 309 other sites listed, by other people who also don't know how to spell.
Crazy internetz.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 22, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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"Maybe I don't understand the phosphorous debate...but I understand you use it to illuminate, but doesn't it fall to the ground at some point? So using it in a civilian area guarentees or increases incident of contact? Whatever the case, nasty business."
Pretty plain from the image on this very page that the sh#t was hitting the ground in a civilian area in broad daylight and that it just missed from folks who would be dying a firey torturous death from it's contact.
Shame, they have plenty of firepower without using this. It's sort of like medical experiments on Jews in WW2, they want to see what their new death tech will do. Hate to make the comparison, but what is White Phosphorus doing in an urban conflict in the most crowded civilian area on earth?
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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The same thing that Depleted Uranium was. Killing innocent civilians and leaving a lasting legacy of mutilation and deformities lest they, "The Others", forget they are sub-human evil doing terrorists.
Nothing says we told you so like radioactive poisoning, birth defects and flesh being burnt to the bone.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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Here is what the effects of WP look like.
WARNING this is not pretty. If you have a weak heart or stomach please don't look!
And here is the delightful long term consequences of the use of Depleted Uranium.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
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Good response there DaftRat. Showing your humanity again!
It was easy for Tsipi Livni, the daughter of Israeli terrorist royalty, to claim there was no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. To her the Palestinians are not humans. So it was a simple matter of eradicating vermin.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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You talk big Jeff. But my guess is that you have no stomach for the reality of war.
My take is that you really are a decent compassionate man. I think you know the Israeli response was over the top and unreasonable. If the roles were reversed I would flood compassion on your pain. These are human beings Jeff. I know you know that.
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 23, 2009 - 12:06am PT
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What did Israel accomplish?
They left Hamas in control. The tunnels are already reopening and Hamas will rearm. As far as I'm concerned, the lives of the dead children were sacrificed for nothing.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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Where do you get that nonsense Skip and why do you insist on barfing it all over. That is a vile and pernicious lie and you know it. At the very least you should refrain from inane regurgitation.
If this father decides to become a suicide bomber who could blame him?
I pretty sure if I were in his shoes I would take out as many as possible innocent or not. That child and mother as well as hundreds more WERE INNOCENT! They were murdered in cold blood by dispicable cowards of the IDF
Terrorism as we know it in this area was first practiced by the Stern and Irgun gangs against the British of the Mandate. Why should the world care one whit if the Israelis reap what they sow?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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No Jeff I haven't and there is no reason to either.
You have yet to address any of my queries like the pro-Israelis dancing to celebrate 1300+ deaths in Gaza at the peace vigil in Denver. You never address the issues I raise directly but rather spew more of your AIPAC bull shit! How pathetic! I pray for the soul of Judaism as the Zionists are leading you all to Hell with blackened hearts and deadened souls!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
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But Jeff regardless of intent tell me what would have been the response if Arabs had shown up to dance at a peaceful vigil to mourn the death of 1300+ Jews?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 23, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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Philo, you are such a two faced dingleberry. You are totally blinded by one-sided hate.
Arabs did show up to dance at the death of what, 3,000 completely innocent people? The deaths of Jews and Christians and a few Moslems too. Unless the "Propagandists" fooled me, I saw Palestinians dancing in the streets in celebration of these deaths. Wasn't that in September, 2001? So if Jews have "blackened hearts and deadened souls!" (your words) when they do this what then does your double standard say about that time? Palestinians are OK to celebrate the deaths of innocents, because they are the the only people there who are "victims." They were justified because they are the "oppressed." Horse crap; they're as bad as anyone else who's dancing to celebrate death.
And, even loving, even headed Philo says: "if I were in his shoes I would take out as many as possible innocent or not." Wow, Philo's own words. So its OK for you and for Palestinians to "take out" innocents, because their "tribe" has done the same to your "tribe." But the reverse is GENOCIDE. Hypocrisy at it's best.
And isn't it GENOCIDE (!!!), what Hamas is doing to Fatah? No trials. No justice, it's cold blooded murder. Whoops, I err. Jews aren't doing the killing, so it's all OK. Dam, I do have to get this double standard thing straight.
You, Philo are the reason for hate and war in the Middle East. Blind idiots on both sides who can't get past the hatreds and "injustices" of generations. No one will take the first step and blood will continue to flow.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 23, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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SUPERTOPO.COM:: The Achille Lauro of rock-climbing discussion forums.
Yesseree, one hell of a hijacking.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 23, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
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Fatty, I'm getting it! That jew (American citizen) killed by terrorists on the Achille Lauro. He wasn't human. Philo tells us so. He was an "oppressor." A "colonizer." A "coward." And even if he was innocent, he deserved to die, because those who killed him were noble "freedom fighters," and anything goes if it gets your tribe what it wants, er, I mean deserves.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
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So Mntyoung let me inform you of reality. The footage you are referring to that seemed so damaging to Palestinians was proven to be file footage from 2 years BEFORE 911.
It was a political rally where they were throwing candy to children. It had NOTHING to do with celebrating 911. Even AIPAC knows that horse won't run anymore. Which is why they stopped spewing that propaganda.
As they no longer contend that Palestinians claimed responsibility for 911. They had that gem ticker taped below news coverage even as the buildings still stood. They were forced to desist as it was a bald faced lie.
What isn't a lie is the 12 Mossad agents arrested on the bank of the East River on 911. They WERE dancing and celebrating WHILE the buildings collapsed. Even Fattrad will tell you they are still in American detention. But since Fox news and Rush Limbaugh didn't cover it you obviously missed that. But don't let that stop you from spewing lies.
Mntyoung just caught your follow post. Do you really think you have a place to lay such assumptions on or about me? Your ignorance glares like the neon lights of Vegas.
Check your facts before you disseminate debunked bull shit!
And Yes if anyone did that to my family I would do ANYTHING to take them out! I can understand where that desperate hate comes from. So sue me.
So once again some xenophobic moron wants to attempt to make me responsible for the death in the Middle East. And I quote "You, Philo are the reason for hate and war in the Middle East".
Great logic and deductive reasoning you got there. Do you even realize what a dumb ass that makes you sound like?
I quote Bob Dylan "Idiot wind... It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe."
"No one will take the first step and blood will continue to flow."
Wrong again friendO! My wife just spent a month over there on an international peace delegation talking to victims on both sides of the Apartheid Wall. Including to the two men, one Israeli and one Palestinian who both lost children to the violence. They have started a dynamic organization that is promoting peace and reconciliation. It can, and will, happen. But I guess you will have to kill me first as I am the reason for all the strife. I will paint a bullseye on me to make it easier. I am waiting,
Her cousin Queen Noor of Jordan has worked tirelessly for peace, reconciliation and justice.
What have YOU done.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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Let me play the same game of twist and spin Mntyoung, You boy are responsible for every death in the Middle East. The blood of all the killed is staining your hands because you do nothing. You do not lobby your government to play with an unstacked deck. A deck permenantly biased against the Palestinians.
And Skip prove me wrong with a reliable source.
Otherwise STFU!
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 23, 2009 - 09:41pm PT
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Philo, when you say: "So Mntyoung let me inform you of reality," make sure you spell it REALITY. That way we know it's true because you say so. Although you can't see it, your reality is a little slanted; you've proved that over and over in this thread. And, of course, since I don't see things your way, I've been convinced by "propaganda."
Also, you asked: "Do you really think you have a place to lay such assumptions on or about me?" No, it isn't my place to make assumptions. Everything I know about you comes from what you've posted here. What you've posted shows two things clearly: you hate and you're blind. Why should I make assumptions when you make things so obvious?
And that old double standard: I can't assume things about you, but you can about me. I think you implied I watch Fox News and listen to the flaming Nazi windbag? Oh, you are a fool indeed. No, I never watch Fox, I distain it. And Rush? Same camp as Ms. Palin, if you ask me (a prideful embracing of ignorance in both cases). For news I listen to NPR mostly, and I read CNN, Time, BBC and Al Jazeera English on the computer. And, honestly, too, I read a lot of links to political stuff from Supertopo threads. I have other sources too, but I almost never watch TV, and certainly never Fox TV.
There's hope though. I'm totally jazzed to hear what your wife is doing. And I've always thought very highly of Queen Noor of Jordan, and her husband, and his father (not that I've ever met them). So why not you too? Why spew hate on this thread? Help your wife's efforts. Start writing about what can be done to fix things, instead of shouting one-sided invective.
Oh, and me? I have no contacts of any type in the Middle East, so I am observing without doing anything. My "good works" come from many, many hours of work here in my hometown on two nonprofits (one for a school and one to help our Sheriff's department with civilian volunteers). And I mediate too, for local lawyers and their clients, trying to help them settle (sometimes bitter) disputes (but I'm paid for that, so it's not really "good works").
Finally, I'll take a very small step toward peace. Sorry for the deep sarcasm above. My mom always said that sarcasm is the cheapest form of wit. I'll try to be more respectful if I post again.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 23, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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Two US warships escort Iranian ship carrying arms for Hamas out through Suez Canal
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report
January 23, 2009, 6:06 PM (GMT+02:00)
US Coast Guard boarding team
DEBKAfile's military sources report that a US Navy Coast Guard team this week boarded an Iranian arms ship flying a Cypriot flag in the Red Sea and found weapons in its hold.
This was the first time an America warship had ever intercepted an Iranian vessel in international water. The incident activated the Memo of Understanding the former US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice signed with Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni a week ago on actions to halt the flow of Iranian arms to Hamas as part of the Gaza ceasefire.
The Iranian ship's captain showed the US boarding team documents recording the Syrian port of Latakia as its cargo's destination. DEBKAfile reports that both US and Israeli intelligence are certain the arms were bound for Hamas. But according to international law, the US Navy's Combined Task Force (CTF) 151, set up last week to combat piracy, was not authorized to confiscate the cargo or stop the ship because no enforcement mechanism was yet in place.
After a few hours, therefore, the US force released the Iranian vessel and two warships escorted it out of Red Sea waters. The ship and its escort are due to enter the Suez Canal heading north Saturday night, Jan. 23, after being prevented from unloading its arms freight on the coast of Sinai or Gaza.
Tehran has so far not reacted to the incident.
DEBKAfile revealed last week that the new US task force policing the waters of the Gulf of Aden, Arabian Sea, Indian Ocean and Red Sea, under the command of Rear Adm. Terry McKnight, had been additionally assigned with intercepting Iranian ships smuggling arms for Hamas, often in conjunction with Somali pirates and Sinai Bedouin militias.
Massed on the lead ship San Antonio is a helicopter detachment, a "surgical team" for dealing with small speedboats trying to hem the ship in and 14 Navy VBSS members, including two Navy boarding officers. The Coast Guard detachment is made up of eight members, all of them qualified as boarding officers.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 23, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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Last update - 20:40 22/01/2009
Italian paper: Gazans say Hamas kept them in homes used by gunmen
By Haaretz Service
Tags: Israel, Hamas, Gaza
Palestinian civilians have accused Hamas of forcing them to stay in homes from which gunmen shot at Israeli soldiers during the recent hostilities in Gaza, the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera reported Thursday.
More than 1,250 Palestinians were reportedly killed during Israel's offensive against Hamas in the coastal territory. Israel has been harshly criticized for the large number of civilians among the Palestinian dead, of whom they numbered more than half according Gaza officials.
B Advertisement
ut the Italian paper also quoted a doctor at Gaza City's Shifa Hospital as disputing the number of Palestinians said to have been killed in the campaign.
"It's possible that the death toll in Gaza was 500 or 600 at the most, mainly youths aged 17 to 23 who were enlisted by Hamas - who sent them to their deaths," he said.
13 Israelis were also killed during the 3-week operation, which was aimed at halting rocket fire on southern Israel and destroying Hamas' infrastructure.
The Gaza doctor was further quoted as saying: "Perhaps it is like Jenin in 2002. At the beginning they spoke about 1,500 dead, and at the end it turned out to be only 54 - of whom 45 were militants."
He was referring to the Israel Defense Forces battle with Palestinian militants in the West Bank town that took place during Operation Defensive Shield at the height of the second intifada.
Top IDF officer: Hamas made 'monstrous' use of children during Gaza op
The IDF Gaza Division Commander on Thursday, meanwhile, branded Hamas' use of women and children during the offensive in Gaza as "monstrous" and "inhumane."
Brig. Gen. Eyal Eisenberg said the civilians were sent by Hamas to transfer weapons to gunmen during the offensive. He also accused the Islamist militant group of booby-trapping many of the civilians' homes.
"Entire families in Gaza lived on top of a barrel of explosives for months without knowing," Eisenberg said.
The officer asserted that despite international calls for investigations into alleged war crimes, the Israel Defense Forces soldiers adhered to moral principles while fighting in Gaza.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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TGT what a raft of fertilizer! One source with an obvious bias. The lie about the death toll is a great example of rewriting history for the benefit of propaganda. You are not worthy to be consider in an adult exchange.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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To state that I am filled with racist hate based on my posts indicates only that you have not clearly read my words. My calling IDF soldiers cowards for shooting unarmed women and children in the head after demanding that they leave the building they were trapped in is not hate or racism. Yes I am very angry. If you do not understand why then you have not really read my words. You only dislike what I say so much that I become the target of attacks. I have never called for the destruction of Israel or the death Of Jews. NEVER!
But some folks on these threads have called for more killing of Palestinians. They have called for grinding them into the dust. They have called for nuking them into glass or the stone age. That IS hate speech and blatant racism. It is the epitome of anti-Semitism. But where were you with your condemnations then? Why did you not call them out? Could it be that you believe all Palestinians are terrorists and all Israelis are innocent victims? Please wake up and check the facts. I would gladly refer you to books and videos produced by impartial international journalists. They would go quite along way in dispelling the myths of propaganda that have the bulk of Americans befuddled.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
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Philo, I have read your words. A lot of your writing isn't clear, but the message has come through loud and clear. Maybe I haven't understood what you really mean? I have no idea if this might be true since all I have to go on is what you type.
You constantly talk about "impartial international journalists," but if they don't share your view, you distain them. What about the Gazan described in the post right above? I haven't read the original, but it seems to be an Italian reporter, quoting a Gazan doctor. Seems pretty impartial to me, but I bet you'll find a way to discount it and him, since what it says paints Hamas with the exact same brush you've been painting Israeli soldiers with - they use civilians as tools regardless of the harm that comes to them.
And look at your own words: "I have never called for the destruction of Israel or the death Of Jews. NEVER! "
Really? I don't think I misread your post above where you said: "if I were in his shoes I would take out as many as possible innocent or not." Since you were talking about a Palestinian man's "shoes," isn't fair to assume you mean "take out," jews? Maybe you were exaggerating, I'm not hearing you, I'm only reading what you type, but that's just one example where you do indeed call for the destruction or death of jews. (Your posts are replete with such examples; and I'm not going to go back through a thousand posts for others, you do it for your own good.)
Think about it, Philo. Help your wife's efforts. Look for peace, don't spew one-sided hatred.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
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Revealed: Israel Killed Iranian Operatives In Gaza
By David Bedein, Middle East Correspondent
Published: Friday, January 23, 2009
Tel Aviv — Documentation obtained from the Middle East Newsline reveals a direct connection between Iran and the Islamic militants Israel fought during its recent Gaza offensive.
It reveals that Iranian military advisers from Iran’s elite Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) were killed during the 22-day war with Hamas, which ended with a self-imposed Israeli cease-fire on Sunday.
IRGC officers helped the Hamas regime and Islamic Jihad fire BM-21 Grad rockets from urban areas.
“We believe there were dozens of IRGC personnel in Gaza during the war,” an Israeli source said. “Some were killed; others went into hiding; and others escaped.”
Israeli intelligence sources IRGC sent officers to the Gaza Strip to help Hamas
improve the range and accuracy of its rockets.
IRGC was also authorized to help establish facilities to produce the Grad and other extended-range Katyusha-class rockets in the Gaza Strip.
Israel expects Iran to expand the IRGC presence in the Gaza Strip amid the cease-fire. Iran is expected to build a Hamas arsenal of rockets with ranges of up to 50 miles, which would include the Fajr-3 and Fajr-4 rockets.
The IRGC presence was arranged in 2008 by the late Hamas Interior Minister Said Siyam, the sources said. Siyam was killed in an Israeli air strike on Gaza City on Saturday, hours before the unilateral cease-fire began.
“Siyam’s death removes Hamas’ key liasion with Iran,” an Israeli source said. “But there are others who could fill his shoes.”
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:11pm PT
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Thanks, Philo for making my argument for me. As I was typing you did exactly what I predicted you'd do. A journalist and a doctor- not American and not Israeli - report views that don't support your preconceived notions. Your response? No thought, no concern that maybe, just maybe there are two sides to this story. Nope, not a chance.
Your response? "TGT what a raft of fertilizer! One source with an obvious bias. "
I don't see any "obvious" bias. But I try to consider many points of view, too.
No sarcasm included, we can conclude that Philo hates and he is blind. One compliment. At least you are predictably consistent.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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So mntyoung again with the philo is pure hate drivel.
I never said I wanted to be a suicide bomber or that I wanted to kill Jews.
I simply tried to explain that in the shoes of someone who had suffered and lost so much I would be as bad. One of the sadly lacking abilities of you who would denigrate me is the empathic compassion to view life from the other side. Who among you would be strong enough to not want revenge for such horrific experiences? Not many. Maybe Werner. The rest of you would be just like the retched and desperate Palestinians when faced with so much loss and heartbreak. I simply wanted to explain that I understood the motivation not that I condoned it. Inside each and everyone of us is a Gandhi and a murderous monster just waiting for a particular set of stressors too release those disparate personas.
To deny so is disingenuous and juvenile in extreme. But some of you seem incapable or unwilling to view life from another's perspective. To not do so is a severe disservice to yourself and your humanity. The history of the world is choked with examples of the weak being bastardized by the powerful. Truth will out in the end.
Regarding TGTs foolishness I have to say that you are obviously unaware and inexperienced in the ways of the Zionist Propaganda juggernaught. I have seen years of it. My wife's family has been abused by it for decades. This story arranged by the disinformation apparatus of the Israeli PR machine will be debunked in time as has so many other pathetic lies. Yet some of you will continue to spread these horrendous lies without regard to the truth at all.
Remember the IDF initially and adamantly denied using white phosphorous in Gaza.
Until photographic and video evidence proved they were lying. Then they adamantly denied using them against civilians. Until photo and video evidence proved they were lying. Now they come up with a fanciful story attributed to an Italian source. Pay attention this to will be disproved. Though it will be barely noticed.
The Israelis are realing from condemnations from both international and domestic humanitarian agencies. It is in their perceived interest to redirect facts to cover their actions. This is their SOP.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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So if I get this right mntyoung I am a racist hate monger because I support the Palestinians. But those who call for their destruction and for sending them to nuclear oblivion are what, peace loving humanitarians? Those who would let them starve to death in the freezing dark are what, Nobel candidates? Please look at your own words and your own motivations. I have several family members and many friends who are Jewish. They know the truth about me. But I am not the issue here except in the minds of a few misguided folks, The issue here is the Humanitarian crisis in Gaza. stay on topic and stay focused. It Does little to advance your argument to state I am the problem. Or maybe you want to hold ne responsible for the collapse of the world economy, global climate change and the boil on your but as well.
I also have several very loved family members who are black and several who are Native Americans. I suppose that makes me a bigot as well.
On another thread you have the pathetic reprobate Sirloin saying he wants to bomb a church. Where is your indignation at that horrendous posting. I don't see you addressing that vileness at all. What is your motivation? As I have already explained if you would have taken the time to read what I've written my wife lost nine family members and friends in Gaza mostly women and babies. I have my reasons to be angry though apparently you think I have no right to be. Where is your indignation against dead innocent Palestinians? Or do you think there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 24, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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It's spelled "butt," Philo, not "but." And it's poison oak, not a boil. And no, I don't hold you responsible, I got it climbing.
Re-read your last two posts. Switch the words jews and Palestinians. Can't you see that both sides share blame? If Israel's leadership is so bad, can't you see that Hamas is it's mirror? Anything you disagree with is IDF "propaganda," yet what Hamas says is gospel to you.
Let me quote you again: "So if I get this right mntyoung I am a racist hate monger because I support the Palestinians. But those who call for their destruction and for sending them to nuclear oblivion are what, peace loving humanitarians? Those who would let them starve to death in the freezing dark are what, Nobel candidates? "
Turn your words around, ask yourself the same question. Is the Hamas call for Israel's destruction the work of a Nobel candidate? Your response? It will be that I am deluded and that Hamas has said no such thing. Well, I'm not deluded; I've seen that come from too many sources not to think it credible.
And the rockets? Random firings no matter if they kill jewish civilians? Is that the work of Nobel candidates? But, Philo, you've made it clear that random deaths of innocent Israeli's are OK because they are the oppressor. Besides, it's all out of "proportion." As if Hamas wouldn't be killing more with rockets if they had better rockets. You really can't see the hypocrisy in your words can you?
And, no, I never said or implied that those calling for "nuking" the Palestinians are peace lovers. I think they're tastelessly jerking your chain, and you're so hateful and myopic that your chain is easy to jerk.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 24, 2009 - 12:53am PT
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And, one more thing. You said: "I have my reasons to be angry though apparently you think I have no right to be."
I am sure you have the right to be angry. And so do the Palestinians. And, you know what? So do the Israelis.
And anger solves what? I am not clear on that concept.
It isn't about anger and who's got the best cause to kill. We've tried anger for 2,000 years, I think you've noticed that it hasn't worked. It's about moving past it and looking for something new. See if your wife agrees.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:00am PT
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The one problem with your spurious statement is I never said nor implied what you are accusing me of.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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Let's look at it this way...
When 911 happened 4 high school students at my wife's school were temporarily detained without intervention for loudly saying "Let's go beat the Palestinian bitch."
They had been wrongly convinced the attack was perpetrated by the Palestinians
They were of course talking about my wife. No one in the office said anything to these boys about the inappropriateness of their threats. After 20 minutes they were returned to class with no consequence and no lesson. Now if during the massacre in Jenin my wife would have said something akin about Jews she would have lost her job that day. The bias in America is blatantly obvious to anyone with open eyes. Speaking truth to power is a lonely difficult road.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:14am PT
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It was several statements, Philo. Which of the things that I attribute to you are the ones that you "never said nor implied ?" Mostly I quoted you.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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Back to the same thing again?
You said :"The bias in America is blatantly obvious to anyone with open eyes. Speaking truth to power is a lonely difficult road."
You've said this before, as if your view is pure truth. All I can offer is that anger and hatred are lonely and difficult roads too. But you don't seem ready to look for solutions, you're still reveling in hate (which you disguise as bravely "speaking truth to power").
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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No you paraphrased and misquoted me to fit your own perceptions.
I am not "reveling" in hate. I am actively working towards the peace process. My posts here are simply to provide a counterpoint to the vitriolic hate spew of a few others. To do less would be an injustice to my wife.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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How? It's hard to misquote using "copy and paste." So, how did I misparaphrase you? You're generalizing, and I'm not.
I'm gone now until tomorrow. Good night to all of you.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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How is this for just one example..
"Philo, you've made it clear that random deaths of innocent Israeli's are OK because they are the oppressor"
When did I say that or even intimate it?
When did I ever say any Hamas member was a Nobel candidate?
When did I ever say I condoned the heinous acts of Hamas?
When did I ever deny acts of brutality by Hamas?
When did I ever condone any acts of violence?
To state that I can understand what motivates someone is in no way an acceptance of their horrendous acts?
Quit being a childish jerk off!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 03:07am PT
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Don't be so foolish to confuse my words with those of others I post up. Many if not most of them are the words of others picked up from sources like Haaretz. Like this one from a Jew working for the UN and printed in Haaretz. Go back and realize that much of what has incensed some of you were not MY original words but those of other internationals many of them Jews.
UN human rights official: Gaza evokes memories of Warsaw Ghetto
By Haaretz Service and Reuters
Tags: Gaza, IDF, Israel News
There is evidence that Israel committed war crimes during its 22-day campaign in the Gaza Strip and there should be an independent inquiry, UN investigator Richard Falk said Thursday.
The mental anguish of the civilians who suffered the assault is so great that the entire population of Gaza could be seen as casualties, said Falk, UN special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Falk, speaking by phone from his home in California, said compelling evidence that Israel's actions in Gaza violated international humanitarian law required an independent investigation into whether they amounted to war crimes.
Advertisement
"I believe that there is the prima facie case for reaching that conclusion," he told a Geneva news conference.
Falk said Israel had made no effort to allow civilians to escape the fighting.
"To lock people into a war zone is something that evokes the worst kind of international memories of the Warsaw Ghetto, and sieges that occur unintentionally during a period of wartime," Falk, who is Jewish, said, referring to the starvation and murder of Warsaw's Jews by Nazi Germany in World War II.
"There could have been temporary provision at least made for children, disabled, sick civilians to leave, even if where they left to was southern Israel," the U.S. professor said.
Falk said the entire Gaza population, which had been trapped in a war zone with no possibility to leave as refugees, may have been mentally scarred for life. If so, the definition of casualty could be extended to the entire civilian population.
Falk, who was denied entry to Israeltwo weeks before the assault started on Dec. 27, dismissed Israel's argument that the assault was for self-defense in the light of rocket attacks aimed at Israel from the Hamas-ruled Gaza strip.
"In my view the UN charter, and international law, does not give Israel the legal foundation for claiming self-defense," he said.
Israel had not restricted fighting to areas where the rockets came from and had refused to negotiate with Hamas, preventing a diplomatic solution, Falk said.
A Foreign Ministry official rejected Falk's accusations.
"There's no need to lose one's temper. Falk is a well-known Israel hater," he told Army Radio.
About 1,300 Palestinians, many of them civilians, were killed and 5,000 wounded in the assault. Ten Israeli soldiers and three civilians, hit by cross-border rocket fire, were killed.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 24, 2009 - 11:32am PT
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Good morning.
Philo, there are two parts to my quote. The second part is my use of the word "oppressors." I don't think, though that this is the main thrust of your disagreement. You've called the Israeli's "occupiers" and "illegal occupiers." You've commented on their illegal blockade (your words, not mine). Although the word "oppressors" is mine, I suspect you'd agree its a fair paraphrase of your words.
The first part of my quote seems to be the part you disagree with. There, putting words in your mouth, I said: "...random deaths of innocent Israeli's are OK because..." I stand by the words I put in your mouth; what I said for you, you've said unequivocally in this thread.
I quoted one such instance in my post #1282. This is what I quoted there: Philo: "I would take out as many as possible innocent or not." That one quote about sums it up, justifying as it does the deaths of innocent jews. Also, I told you that I'm not wading through over a thousand post to find other, similar quotes. But maybe I don't need to. I'm encouraged by three parts of your reply. These three parts:
"When did I ever say I condoned the heinous acts of Hamas?"
"When did I ever deny acts of brutality by Hamas?"
"To state that I can understand what motivates someone is in no way an acceptance of their horrendous acts? "
Mostly you've ignored brutality and horrendous acts by Hamas, even when asked about them directly. At minimum, that is a form of denial. And you've apologized for their conduct too, as justified given what you think is oppression (my word paraphrasing you). But maybe what seemed to be "apologizing" fits within the third part of the quote above, maybe you were understanding and not accepting. If so, that didn't come through in what I read.
But maybe too, we can move on? I think the quotes above have you confirming that Hamas too has been brutal? That (some of) their behavior is heinous, just as some of the IDF's conduct has been the same. That it takes two peoples to fight here, and that groups on both sides are being barbaric (my words not yours). I think I can read into these quotes an agreement that there are many innocents on each side, and that none of them, Palestinians and jews alike, deserve random violence delivered for any reason.
If I read these words correctly, I think we have a lot to agree on.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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Good morning to you as well.
The Israelis are occupiers that cannot be denied. The Israelis still try to call territories "administered" not "occupied". As they still try to call it a separation "fence" and not an apartheid "wall" which it is. The occupation is illegal by all standards of international law. This too cannot be denied. You may wish to disagree about the brutality of the occupation but the facts on the ground for the past several decades unequivocally prove rampant daily brutality. Even if we in the US have been insulated from the truth by a media filtered through the artifice of one narrative. For fifty years we have been spoon fed a single narrative replete with lies and distortion that we as a nation have been taught to believe without question. We are always shown the weeping Israeli clutching the star of david draped coffin of another "innocent" jew. If we are shown Palestinians at all we are shown pictures of them in angry protest. Or we are shown file footage of celebrating Palestinian kids from a rally two years before and are told they are cheering for the 911 attack. And this regardless of the consequences. Even when a radicalized fundamentalist (un)settler goes into a Mosque at prayer time and slaughters a group of unarmed civilians with a machine gun. We are not shown grieving Palestinians we are instead reminded of the Holocaust. To take my "I would take out..." comment out of context of "if I were in their shoes" is a disingenuous manipulation of my words and intent. To hold me accountable for or say I condone the violence because I said I can understand is a ludicrous and deliberate spin.
Regardless of how well I understand and even empathize with the suffering of the Jews in Israel I DO NOT need to present their side. We have a whole media machine to do that for us ad-nauseam. Some one needs to speak for the Palestinian condition. Fortunately for the Palestinians and the world during this latest so called "war"we have had a presence in Gaza that has gotten the truth out. There will be no hiding the truth and obfuscating reality as there was in Jenin. For any one to try and state that only 54 people, all combatants, died in Jenin is a repugnant abomination of truth. It is an amoral act along the lines of those who would deny the holocaust. I have been to the death camps in Poland I am fully aware of the horrendous atrocity perpetrated there. What most of the drooling mouth breathers on ST don't know or won't acknowledge is the 5 to 7 million non Jews who were eliminated in those hell holes. But the survivors of those other groups have for the most part moved on. They are not attempting to hold the world hostage to their tragic past. They are not ramming the past down our throats when ever anyone questions their actions. Other than the ones who emigrated earlier I personally lost every one in my family to the war and death camps. Every last one of them. Nothing left not even a photograph. So I am very sensitive to any further acts of genocide. To me "Never Again" means for all people not just Jews. Also I have a predisposition to stand up for the underdog. It is impossible to consider the Israelis underdogs. What with one of the worlds largest most powerful armies and coffers stuffed with tens of billions of US tax dollars. Using every modern abomination of war against a desperate and imprisoned people who so many of you won't allow to have even rocks to defend them selves with. What weapons will you allow them to resist occupation with? By international law they are guaranteed the right to resist and defend. But what will you allow them to have? Spit balls? Why is it so seemingly impossible for some of you to imagine being in their shoes? What would you do? What would you do if you were the Israeli trained and much loved Palestinian doctor who while being interviewed live had his home behind him bombed by the Israelis killing his entire family. This happened on live TV. It has caused shock waves across Israel. What would you do? Would you flippantly say oh well Israel has a right to defend themselves? Would you say that Palestinians do not have that right? No one deserves this NO ONE!
But where have you been with your indignation and condemnation of those who would call for more death and destruction of the Palestinian people? Those who would advocate the use of nuclear weapons against them? Where have you been? To not speak up against them, ostensibly because you assume they were said tongue in cheek or to goad me, discredits all your arguments against me. Don't you see that.
Now I know that you, or one of the ST war mongers, will take this out of context and attempt to brand me with it but what if I had said nuke Tel Aviv? Can you imagine the outcry that would have created? Even if I had said it "tongue in cheek". And yet you have Israeli soldiers scrawling on the walls of destroyed gazan buildings such reprehensible hate speech as "Gas the Arabs" and drawing picture of palestinian children with bull's eyes on their heads. Where is your indignation, condemnation and outrage at these despicable acts? Why do you instead make me the focal point of your distaste?
Much of what I post, which apparently those with minimal comprehension have ascribed to my words, are in fact reports from international aid workers and UN representatives posted from inside Gaza. The most damning and vitriolic of which come from Jews within Israel who are appalled and disgusted with the behavior of their country. I post them as a honest counterpoint to the rabid misinformation of the "Palestinians deserve it" crowd. And yet some want to hate me, blame me and hold me accountable for all the death and suffering. That is oddly ludicrous.
So we are of to another peace vigil in support of Palestinians.
What will you be doing?
Maybe ifs Iz lucky I can beat me some Jew dancers 'cause you knows I hates me dancin'.
We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as
slaves."
ChairmanHeilbrunof the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the
mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both
the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out
discreetly and circumspectly."
TheodoreHerzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the
Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.
“We must expel Arabs and take their places."
David Ben Gurion, future Prime Minister of Israel, 1937, BenGurionand the Palestine
Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
We walked outside, Ben-Gurionaccompanying us. Allonrepeated his question, What is to be
done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurionwaved his hand in a gesture which said
‘Drive them out’”
Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New
York Times, 23 October 1979.
We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the
cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"
"A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are
already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or
else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this
colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!... Zionism is a colonization adventure and thereforeit
stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important... to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be ableto shoot
-or else I am through with playing at colonizing."
VladimirJabotinsky, founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud), The Iron Wall, 1923.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do
not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there
either. Nahlal arose in the place ofMahlul; KibbutzGvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Saridin the place of Huneifis;
andKefar Yehushuain the place ofTalal-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a
former Arab population."
MosheDayan, address to theTechnion, Haifa, reported inHaaretz, April 4, 1969.
he present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people
have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill -- From the
Nile to the Euphrates."
BenGurion
" It lies upon the people's shoulders to prepare for the war, but it lies upon the
Israeli army to carry out the fight with the ultimate object of erecting the Israeli
Empire."
MosheDayan(Israel Defense and Foreign Minister), on February 12
1952. Radio "Israel."
"The only solution is Eretz Israel [Greater Israel], or at least WesternEretz Israel [all the
land west of Jordan River], without Arabs. There is no room for compromise on this point ... We
must not leave a single village, not a single tribe."
JosephWeitz, Director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged
with acquiring Palestinian land, Circa 194.Machover Israca, January 5, 1973 p.2.
"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country.
We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to
transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one
tribe should be left."
JosephWeitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department in 1940. From "A
Solution to the Refugee Problem"
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed."
GoldaMeir, March 8, 1969.
Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969
y of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a
certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no
Zionism, colonializationor Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation
of their lands."
YoramBarPorath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.
y of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a
certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no
Zionism, colonializationor Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation
of their lands."
YoramBarPorath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world
attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the
territories."
BenyaminNetanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of
Israel, tells students at BarIlanUniversity, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November
24, 1989.
f I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their
country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has
been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have
come and we have stolen their country. Why would they
accept that?"
David BenGurion(the first Israeli Prime Minister)quotedby NahumGoldmannin Le
Paraddoxe Juif(The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and
that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born
and developed after the war."
Israeli General Matityahu Peled,Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.
e declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel...
Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians
come crawling to us on all fours."
Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces -Gad Becker,Yediot Ahronot
13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.
" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs."
MenahimBegin, speech to the Knesset, quoted inAmnon Kapeliouk, "Begin
andthe Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.
General Assembly were to vote by 121 votes to 1 in favor of "Israel" returning
to the armistice lines-- (pre June 1967 borders) "Israel" would refuse to comply
with the decision."
Aba Eban(the Israeli Foreign Minister) stated arrogantly. New York Times June
19, 1967.
will have to face the reality that Israel is neither innocent, nor redemptive. And that in its
creation, and expansion; we as Jews, have caused what we historically have suffered; a
refugee population in Diaspora."
MartinBuber, Jewish Philosopher, addressed Prime Minister Ben
Gurionon the moral character of the state of Israel with reference to
the Arab refugees in March 1949
"When we [followers of the prophetic Judaism] returned to Palestine...the
majority of Jewish people preferred to learn from Hitler rather than from
us."
MartinBuber, to a New York audience, Jewish Newsletter, June 2, 1958.
"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created State
of Israel of the Freedom Party (Herut), a political party closely akin in its organization, method,
political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties."
[Begin, and YitzhakShamir who were members of the party became Prime Ministers.] Albert Einstein, Hanna
Arendt and other prominent Jewish Americans, writing in The New York Times, protest the visit to America of
MenachemBegin, December 1948.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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The words of the Jews speak for themselves...
We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as
slaves."
ChairmanHeilbrunof the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the
mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both
the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out
discreetly and circumspectly."
TheodoreHerzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the
Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.
“We must expel Arabs and take their places."
David Ben Gurion, future Prime Minister of Israel, 1937, BenGurionand the Palestine
Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
We walked outside, Ben-Gurionaccompanying us. Allonrepeated his question, What is to be
done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurionwaved his hand in a gesture which said
‘Drive them out’”
Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New
York Times, 23 October 1979.
We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the
cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"
"A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are
already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or
else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this
colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!... Zionism is a colonization adventure and thereforeit
stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important... to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be ableto shoot
-or else I am through with playing at colonizing."
VladimirJabotinsky, founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud), The Iron Wall, 1923.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do
not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there
either. Nahlal arose in the place ofMahlul; KibbutzGvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Saridin the place of Huneifis;
andKefar Yehushuain the place ofTalal-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a
former Arab population."
MosheDayan, address to theTechnion, Haifa, reported inHaaretz, April 4, 1969.
he present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people
have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill -- From the
Nile to the Euphrates."
BenGurion
" It lies upon the people's shoulders to prepare for the war, but it lies upon the
Israeli army to carry out the fight with the ultimate object of erecting the Israeli
Empire."
MosheDayan(Israel Defense and Foreign Minister), on February 12
1952. Radio "Israel."
"The only solution is Eretz Israel [Greater Israel], or at least WesternEretz Israel [all the
land west of Jordan River], without Arabs. There is no room for compromise on this point ... We
must not leave a single village, not a single tribe."
JosephWeitz, Director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged
with acquiring Palestinian land, Circa 194.Machover Israca, January 5, 1973 p.2.
"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country.
We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to
transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one
tribe should be left."
JosephWeitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department in 1940. From "A
Solution to the Refugee Problem"
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed."
GoldaMeir, March 8, 1969.
Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969
y of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a
certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no
Zionism, colonializationor Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation
of their lands."
YoramBarPorath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.
y of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a
certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no
Zionism, colonializationor Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation
of their lands."
YoramBarPorath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world
attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the
territories."
BenyaminNetanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of
Israel, tells students at BarIlanUniversity, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November
24, 1989.
f I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their
country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has
been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have
come and we have stolen their country. Why would they
accept that?"
David BenGurion(the first Israeli Prime Minister)quotedby NahumGoldmannin Le
Paraddoxe Juif(The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and
that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born
and developed after the war."
Israeli General Matityahu Peled,Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.
e declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel...
Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians
come crawling to us on all fours."
Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces -Gad Becker,Yediot Ahronot
13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.
" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs."
MenahimBegin, speech to the Knesset, quoted inAmnon Kapeliouk, "Begin
andthe Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.
General Assembly were to vote by 121 votes to 1 in favor of "Israel" returning
to the armistice lines-- (pre June 1967 borders) "Israel" would refuse to comply
with the decision."
Aba Eban(the Israeli Foreign Minister) stated arrogantly. New York Times June
19, 1967.
will have to face the reality that Israel is neither innocent, nor redemptive. And that in its
creation, and expansion; we as Jews, have caused what we historically have suffered; a
refugee population in Diaspora."
MartinBuber, Jewish Philosopher, addressed Prime Minister Ben
Gurionon the moral character of the state of Israel with reference to
the Arab refugees in March 1949
"When we [followers of the prophetic Judaism] returned to Palestine...the
majority of Jewish people preferred to learn from Hitler rather than from
us."
MartinBuber, to a New York audience, Jewish Newsletter, June 2, 1958.
"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created State
of Israel of the Freedom Party (Herut), a political party closely akin in its organization, method,
political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties."
[Begin, and YitzhakShamir who were members of the party became Prime Ministers.] Albert Einstein, Hanna
Arendt and other prominent Jewish Americans, writing in The New York Times, protest the visit to America of
MenachemBegin, December 1948.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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Philo, you talked about other victims of the Nazi holocaust (how about over 20 million dead Soviets/Russians, no wonder it took them so long to move on?). In part, about these other groups, you said:
"But the survivors of those other groups have for the most part moved on. They are not attempting to hold the world hostage to their tragic past. They are not ramming the past down our throats when ever anyone questions their actions."
What you've described is the core of the problem with the Palestinians. In the modern era, war has gone on now for 60 plus years in the Middle East. Do the Palestinians really think they are going to "reconquer" all of Palestine? They never will.
So, why don't the Palestinian people (to use your words) move on? Why are they "attempting to hold the world hostage to their tragic past," and "ramming the past down our throats when ever anyone questions their actions?" As you point out, other nations and people have done just this and are now thriving.
The Israelis aren't blameless, they suffer from similar thinking. Way earlier in this thread I described what they should do:
"Israel: withdraw it's absolutely mindbogglingly stupid settlements from the West Bank. Understand that they're dealing with a society that might not be able to "give" first, and unilaterally declare peace for a period of at least years. Take attacks if they come. Open the borders, come what may. Let Gaza act like an independant country, even start trying to help with economic development, trying to help create Palestinian prosperity. Make the world know that Israel, at least truly wants peace, and that it is willing to "take it on the chin" in order to get it. "
Why can Philo see how other groups of people have moved on in the past, but he can't see that Palestinian refusal to do so is part of the problem? The Palestinians would rather embrace hate. As long as they do so there will never be peace.
I'm gone now for the rest of today; let's talk more later.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Philo, you keep proving to be nothing more than a propagandist.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 24, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
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Or at least a stable welfare state that isn't a proxy battlefield.
(Gotta start somewhere.)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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The difference is that, except for the Gypsies, the other survivors have countries where they live in peace and self determination and not under a strangling occupation.
And Mntyoung I clearly remember that earlier post because I found it to be the most insightful and fair of your posts. Please take some time to educate yourself about the realities of this occupation. Look at Hebron for one example. Then you might beging to understand or at the very least have an increased sense of compassion for the plight of the Palestinians.
No Jeff not you.
Well got to go now so y'all flame away.
I hope some of you actually realize my comment about dancers was indeed "tongue in cheek".
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couchmaster
climber
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Sep 12, 2014 - 12:40pm PT
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It's interesting to look back and read responses to people whom are no longer here and thus have totally invisible posts. Fattrad and Coz for instance. I particularly enjoyed this post from 5 years ago to Coz. Since that time Al Jizem has been bought and sold and is publishing a Westernized version which is much mellower. The Hama's charter, of course, still calls for the Jews to either die or at least swim out into the Mediterranean to some other place, but Al Jizem is not so obvious these days.
"I read Al Jeezera and from what I read they are saying is it looks like they only want Israel gone and the Jews there dead if they are not gone. Dead and gone. Gone and dead. Their women and children too. That's what it appears they want. Then when the land of Israel is no more, they will have peace. After the Jews are dead and gone. Then peace. Of course they say they don't believe in targeting civilians, yet 90 percent of their actions counter that lie. They often recruit walking bombs to walk into a crowded public spot and blow up all the men, women and children that are there. They toss rockets that have no guidance controls right into cities. Hoping that there are many deaths.
Interestingly, the US killed hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of civilians during WW2, many many many women and children. We killed the kids, dogs and even their goldfish and pet birds too. We burned their homes and leveled cities in at least 3 continents, maybe more. We killed them all. Yet rare is the apologist saying we should NOT have fought at all. During the last war, which is still going on, we killed and continue to kill women and children too. We try hard to not do this, but it is unavoidable. War sucks. Peace is the answer to avoidance.
-However-
There are 2 sides to every story, in this case there may be 5 or 6. I hope for peace there as well: as do ALL OF US HERE, but it takes 2 to tango and 2 to become friends. Perhaps the Lion will not lay down with the lamb anytime soon: in which case, you have to choose a side. That is what many here have done. That is what the US has done. Obama has been very silent on the invasion. He too, will eventually choose a side Coz. That side will be with our friends in Israel. He too, will hope for peace.
But that takes 2 sides. "
Don't know why some people think it's OK for the Palestinians to try and kill jews every day of the year but when the Jews finally respond in kind and much more efficiently in defense of their very lives, those same folks bitch and cry about it. If the bastards did that to the US, say, lob missiles daily into Los Angeles from Tijuana, it would be right after the first warning to stop it that they ignored, we Americans would totally and brutally annihilate them in one fell swoop and thus the attacks would end. We wouldn't tolerate it and neither should the Israelis. Maybe someday in my lifetime the attacks will end and the Jews can finally live in peace. I wish all of them the best, including those Palestinians getting stuck in the middle of this who seek peace as well.
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Avery
climber
NZ
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Sep 12, 2014 - 08:02pm PT
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I'm 100% behind you, philo.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Sep 12, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
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peh....its ALL propaganda. Thats the name of the game.
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couchmaster
climber
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Sep 15, 2014 - 08:47am PT
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Yeah? Think so? You really believe that "its ALL propaganda" I wholeheartedly disagree with you about that. People thought Hitlers schtick was "only" propaganda too. If we have learned anything from history it's that words have meaning. Meanings which often predate reality. We ignore them at our peril.
Edit:
ps, all of you - stop saying and using the term "Sand Niggers". It's super stupid and needlessly racist and very polarizing. If you can't say that sh#t in public without getting your ass kicked then don't say it here.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Sep 15, 2014 - 11:10pm PT
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No one here seems to say what needs to be said who is this guy some hero ?
To who ?...?..(a fudge packer)like that one locker! a kick to the taint
did he once climb so great or get all the girls
Me thinks a nazis is he
I know a thing or to about hate and this
Fthe Jews oh that's just great
Yes they are a narsicist state but you can not
Possibly equate the shite that (a name that locker flamed me for)
The sand niggers ex camel jockeys steal the teeth from your mouth while you sleep who target civilians and hide behind hospitals, children's schools and mosques as a rule
The cowards can not admit that left every chance to change the game for forty years the money of the 4th rieche and taking aim at old hate has left them to this nihilist state
Peace.? sCUMBAG(or whatever that original posters name was/ is)
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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The latest, killing a medic with both arms raised
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/06/gaza-grief-pain-slain-angel-mercy-paramedic-180602143958100.html
According to WIKI, this is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions:
"Medical Neutrality refers to a principle of noninterference with medical services in times of armed conflict and civil unrest: physicians must be allowed to care for the sick and wounded, and soldiers must receive care regardless of their political affiliations; all parties must refrain from attacking and misusing medical facilities, transport, and personnel. Concepts comprising the principles of medical neutrality derive from international human rights law, medical ethics and humanitarian law. Medical neutrality may be thought of as a kind of social contract that obligates societies to protect medical personnel in both times of war and peace, and obligates medical personnel to treat all individuals regardless of religion, race, ethnicity, or political affiliation. Violations of medical neutrality constitute crimes outlined in the Geneva Conventions."
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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My first visit to this thread is tonight & I have only looked at the first 20 & last group of posts.
However!
I find myself somewhat-amazed this thread never got nuked by ST management, when so many less-offensive threads did get nuked.
ST management!
Please nuke this thread.
Thank you.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Just another Euro Colony of Murderers. Nothing new.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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thank you Philo.... well put
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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No anti Semitism here. Though I am Christian I have more than half jewish blood. What happened to the jews in ww11 was more than horrific. I completely understand the thought process in 47, 48 that the Jews needed a safe place to live so the Britts and US supported them in taking the land by force of arms. Two wrongs do not make a right... The palastenians got royally screwed and they need a place to live safely as well. there will never be peace there without a two state solution. terrible things have been done on both sides but at the end of the day the isralies took the land by force and subject the arabs to some pretty harsh un sustainable living conditions... the arabs fight the isralies because that is what you do when you get invaded and suppressed... Lose, lose situation for everyone...….
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