restoring Conservatism (ot)


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chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
Nov 5, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
Bluey..etc, Terry Gross on Fresh air-talked about- The view of Contempary America ..and.. The Future of the Conservative Movement.

The first story is Bill Moyers speaking, second story down -Mickey Edwards.

Both are EXCELLENT!....give them a listen..
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Nov 5, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
Norton, couldn't have said it better myself.

tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Nov 5, 2008 - 11:05pm PT

if you look at the wars as justified in some way, it makes sense that we invaded Afghanistan, but Iraq was BS from before day one.

If you at it as an effort to squeeze Iran, then both actually make some sense, but our favorite war mongering buddies in the adminstration didn't actually know all that much about war, having dodged the draft and all.

Now were broke and our friends in the service are getting blow'd up.

Anyone actually believe the surge worked because of troop numbers? Dude we cut deals with the Iranians who can ramp up the violence there any time they want.

Criminal charges for misuse of the armed services, I guess it's not technically a crime, but it is.


A long way from where I started
Nov 5, 2008 - 11:16pm PT
The key issue, in my opinion at least, is to realize that there are two separate meanings for "conservative" in your country, and that somehow that separation has been lost.

There are many people in the US, I would venture to say most people, who support the idea of fiscal conservatism. They may quarrel over details, but most would agree that a balanced budget is a good thing, and that a reasonable level of taxation to pay for a reasonable level of services is a good thing.

But the other "conservatives," the social conservatives, are an entirely different group. They are, for the most part, religious fundamentalists of one persuasion or another, and their goals are not shared by the majority of Americans.

Would it not make sense for there to be a political party that bases itself on moderate fiscal conservatism and moderate social liberalism?

As things stand, the Democratic party comes closest to that at present. So it seems that if you want to restore conservatism (in the sense I believe you are using it), then you either have to accept the Democratic Party (for the present, at least), severely restrict the influence of the religious fundamentalists on the Republican party, or form a third party.

My $0.02 (about $0.025 in your currency)



Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2008 - 11:16pm PT
I believe that I first called my party te Nationalized Capitalist Party, but not only is it a misnomer, but it sounds way too fascistic!

I guess what I'm going for is a capitalistic system, but one that stresses national capitalism (tariffs/incentives) and not global capitalism (sending manufacturing to China). One that also police's it's border, monitors food, encourages domestic food, encourages alternative energy that's viable, encourages people to work for their money, education funding analysis, etc..

Nov 5, 2008 - 11:17pm PT
"I'm thinking I may kill this thread and start a Third Party thread. After all the Repubs will not embrace a true conservative party, which is actually indicative of a bigger problem with our 2 parties. Corruption and elitism."

I'm with you.

Let's line 'em all up and start over.

edit: I'd vote libertarian, but those guys want to sell off all our public lands. A bit of overkill, eh?
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Nov 5, 2008 - 11:27pm PT
David- You are right on, but the problem is the unions vs. the big business fiscal conservatives, they tradionally haven't been able to be in the same party. That's why fiscal conservatives have to sign on with the social conservatives.

Also I wasn't trying to be callous, I'm actually fairly angry about the whole situation. Fortunately for my frends overseas, Iraq has calmed down. A local kid got killed last year but so far my friends have been fine. I'm mad that they put people in harm's way for no real reason and then did it poorly. It's not the soldiers, they are doing their jobs. It was the decision makers, both strategically and tactically that led us down into the muck. Heads have been replaced with cooler heads, and progress gets made.

Afghanistan is another story. That one, while the more justified, will be a mess for a long time.

In the end these things have nothing to do with conservatism, and more to do with poor decision makers.


tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Nov 5, 2008 - 11:30pm PT
no shoes. That's why I'm a communist libertarian. The real libertarians are really just right wing republicans and not libertarians at all.

Public land is one the best thing about this country. If it was privatized, we wouldn't be allowed to go play with out a fee.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 5, 2008 - 11:36pm PT
Skip wrote

""i think we'd be more fiscally responsible spending about 1/2 what we do on arms and military and NOBODY could still even dream of threatening us."

Excuse me,

I seem to remember some people flying into buildings or something like that.

And weren't those same people being protected by a country that we had to invade? Aren't we still there fighting? "

Yes Skip, some terrorists, not sponsored by any government but mostly Saudi Arabians who organized themselves in Germany attacked some important buildings.

So we attacked Afghanistan, (with little actual proof of how much, if any, they were involved) How much of a military does it take to whip one of the world's poorest countries? How did our uber-special military come into play in preventing or protecting 9-11?

The only person with strong 9-11 ties that Afghanistan had (and offered to give him up to a neutral country for trial) was Bin Laden. He got away even though we have the worlds most expensive military.

Very little, military spending actually gets in the way of money that could go into domestic law enforcement, port security and so on.

Conservatives who think we have to blow more money than we have on bombs and weapons are fearful wimps. We are wasting our future doing this and our use of our military is one of the main things that actually brings these threats to our door.



Trad climber
Nov 5, 2008 - 11:50pm PT

I'm sorry man but the time for racing for the victim position has passed. You wanted notes on how to make conservatism worthy again. I gave you constructive criticism and you instantly began whining about the "biased media." You're still pretending that it's the world that's messed up, not your message. We had an election. A big one. And it roundly rejected the message that you are trying to defend.

So again I say to you: Take an objective look at what the Repubs did. Stop racing for the "oh but they did it too crap." You guys lost for a REASON and it's NOT because the Dems had a negative message or cause the MSM was against you. It's because the Republicans were INAUTHENTIC in every way shape and form. Characterizing Obama's tax plan as socialist is not authentic. Pretending that Obama wants to "legislate failure in Iraq" is not authentic. Pretending that a woman that thinks Africa is a country and can't name the countries in NAFTA is qualified to be President is inauthentic. Yesterday America said overwhelmingly that they saw that to be the case.

There is nothing wrong with authentic conservatism. What is wrong is that those that are championing it forgot that holding on to one's ideals and doing what is right for the country is more important than winning.
John Moosie

Beautiful California
Nov 6, 2008 - 12:23am PT
"I seem to remember some people flying into buildings or something like that. '

At that time, we had the most powerful military in the world. Did it stop the terrorist?

NOPE. The military can't protect us from terrorist.

Karl wrote,

"We are wasting our future doing this and our use of our military is one of the main things that actually brings these threats to our door. "

In other words... You reap what you sow.


Nov 6, 2008 - 12:39am PT

Here are my thoughts.

What should be the priorities of government? In broad terms, what should it achieve or promote?

-National security?

Figure this out before you figure out how to get there.


Trad climber
Nov 6, 2008 - 01:01am PT
Bluering: "Matt, try to avoid personal attacks, it makes these discussions a lot more tolerable and easier to follow. Otherwise it inevitably descends into bullsh#t."

Bullshit like your claim that Obama wasn't a U.S. citizen?

Bullshit like your claim that Obama and his supporters were like the Nazis and might haul you away to the ovens?
Jeremy Handren

Nov 6, 2008 - 01:16am PT
Great link nita...
I especially liked his comments on the likely legacy of the Bush administration....".if you don't believe in Government" etc..

I've been saying the same thing myself for years.


Nov 6, 2008 - 03:55am PT
hey blue,

are you going to be around for the thanksgiving weekend? ill be up there and be short on time, but i would love to hit castle even if just for an hour or two, (boulder) if i can. it would be cool to get humiliated on all the sh#t i used to have wired.

have you ever been down to lost keys bolder? its a ways down from a castle perspective, and its pretty small so in a way limited, but the problems are cool. i used to go down there a lot at dawn before having to check in with the man, and work that damn traverse (lost keys traverse). sean and evan and maybe some others found it and sent everything on it. they thought they had found the boulder, and i think they didnt know it had been climbed, so they gave everything a name. long winded, but my point is, to me, the traverse is called 'bitch stopper' (V4). yeah, its a traverse, so i know... but its the most technical sequence ive ever been able to put together, so i really like it. when i say put together, i dont mean 'figure out' cause sean certainly gave some beta.

Spent a lot of time down there during some special times of my life. it was around the time my daughter was born and i was a salaried employee for a consulting firm. i was on the bench and i got paid for about 6 months! i think i had one or two 3 week gigs in there, but for the most part i was at home getting paid. such a blessing to be able to be home all day, every day, during my daughters first 6 months of life. she and i have a very strong bond and i think that time at home has something to do with it. actually thats bullsh#t, she and i are just get along.

i had a kick ass garden that year. i wasnt 'on the bench' when i started that garden, i was on a long term project in San Jose which ended right when Tess was born. I remember i had a giant chamomille(sp) plant in the garden and i would bring tons of it into work and make tea. the tea pretty much sucked, but i was in uber hippAY mode and lovin life.

the garden was small but bountiful, and i'll never forget the salsa i made from it. i didnt grow garic, so garlic, vineger and salt where the only ingrediants in the salsa that didn't come from the garden. it was hotter than a french whore on a friday night too...habenaro! jalepeno!! cerrano!!!! lots of zuch bread and rosemary garlic (again store bought garlic) bread. anyway, that garden might have had something to do with the times, it was a diverse garden, and i certainly babied it.

they were good cerranos too. curry from scratch. Who-Rah! reggae, morter, pestal, the flavor was intricate but often to spicey. singh ha beer! Thailand is in my soul.

i had this piece of sh#t climbing wall, but it was cool all the same. it was steep and we would get together on tuesdays (wendesdays?) and crank. every once in a while we had a beer or two as well, sometimes mrs g would do the cookie thang. mr lane particulalry enjoyed the beer. folks did get injured. most of us had no talent but everyone pulled hard.

sean would set the bar (problems), and the rest of us would spend the next couple of weeks trying do them (few were repeated). So instead we threw a big hold at each corner and the mortals would compete for the most number of laps before failing. each corner hold had to be grasped solidly before moving on. this competition was mostly between lane, strom and myself, and it was a great motivater, and many pre dawn sessions took place beforew work.

anyway, it was good time in my life. i established great friendships with people like erik strom, jeff lane, mungie, sean ryan (who i miss dearly), evan... people whose company i took for granted and whose company i long for now.

but bitch stopper.... what a fun traverse! would you believe i gave up alcohol until i sent that fuker? HOO RAH! only took me about 5 days after that commitment!

MAN! One day, god damn gorgeous Saturday! it was cold and that sandstone was pretty sticky. we were up there in the afternoon, so it wasnt ultra prime Cashel sticky, but winter good all the same. it was the Magoos! holy shit! this Spanish girl was realy beuatiful! i mean she was super pretty (mind to mush...super...). she was with another gal that was purty too. Evan swooned in and us thugs stepped back and wathced evan make that dance look so easy... and soon we were on our way to "Moon Rock" (Lost Keys Boulder) with some cuties.

it was super fun and that super pretty Spanish girl was a super strong climber. she fumbled maybe once, twice at most, falling while dropping on to the bench. she got through it though, with a sequence i could never do, and when she came off she was super cool. she called it 6a.(french?? i dunno).. 'maybe 6a ploooce' she said. to me that meant 10a. freekin classic, id spent monthes on this thing and she calls it 10a.

wow! so many other good memories! toatin around with my thermus full of jo! lots of coffee and working hard on sh#t before work. id go up there at dawn and work on stuff. scrub the problem, warm up. whap the sh#t outta the rock with shirt, shoulderz feeling loose! scrubbin with that stupid M15, but man... clean is good!

whoa! 1 am gotta sleep.

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 6, 2008 - 04:28am PT
"But I ask you, 'How many people are you willing to sacrifice in order to save money.'"

I would say you could very easily sum up the last six years with the question:

"But I ask you, 'How many people are you willing to sacrifice in order to make money.'"

I'd also say if you wanted to rebuild the republican party then dump the social conservatives and religious nutjobs and simply endeavor to persevere in the delivery of W's 1999-2000 campaign rhetoric. The current administration is exactly the danger Eisenhower attempted to warn our nation about.

Trad climber
Nov 6, 2008 - 08:55am PT
Republicans could be served well to take a good look at the beliefs of Barry Goldwater.

Nov 6, 2008 - 10:22am PT
A suggestion for your effort to form a new party for conservative thinkers.

Study the excellent and successful political people. Then adopt what is good.

Take a look at Obama. He called in the very best people on economics and then reportedly said, "Tell me what(you believe) I need to do."

I read the above thread and I sense only resistance on your part.

Keep this up and any conversation you have will be with yourself.

We would not have the trouble we do now in the US if a certain leader had realized the first thing a leader has to know - is how to choose the people they will be following. Everyone follows.

Now I suspect the above will cause you to feel resistance rising. Here is one way to fix that.

If one asks the question, "What is life?" a single answer leads the rest.

It is a chance to learn and to become better.

Speaking from experience, there is an amazing realization here.

When one is really bad, you have many more opportunities than does someone who is already good.

Trad climber
Nov 6, 2008 - 11:20am PT
A great first step to restoring conservatism would be to prosecute Bush and his group of criminals for their crimes. Drag them out of the White House in handcuffs.

I hope for a future where we as Americans are less divided in our own country, but right now we not only need to restore conservatism, we need to restore our very democracy.

Trad climber
the south
Nov 6, 2008 - 11:29am PT
True conservatives, like Bacevich and Brooks, have been dealt such a blow by the neo-con Rethuglicans, that they were supporting the democrats.

I mena, when you promise, FOR THIRTY YEARS MIND YOU, smaller gov, but producer bigger nad more intrusive gov than ever before, when you promise fiscal responsibility but deliver HUGE deficits and national debt, nad you do NOTHING about social issues like you promised, what are the real conservatives supposed to do?

Real conservatives and real liberals actually have a lot in common. they both want to make our country better, they just differ on HOW.

The Rethuglican neo-cons were serious thugs who had a totally different agenda-- to plunder the country and the gov for themselves and their rich friends.
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