Scheister TR and broken biner report

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Messages 21 - 40 of total 74 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Zoo

climber
Fremont, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2008 - 11:51am PT
To Rhyang: Good call, September 27th.

To Clint: I don't know what kind of bolt hanger it was. I plan to go back to check out the location of the bolt, take some pictures, etc. I don't know when I'll find the time though. The gate was opening from the top. I rotate my biners when I clip my own gear, I'm not sure why I didn't on that bolt. Torquing in some abnormal way is quite possible. I think the biner was hanging free in the hanger, but who knows what happened after I slipped.

n.b. Mammut makes a Bionic Wiregate Biner that has a hood over the gate which eliminates some of the problems discussed here. The extra 7 grams/biner over the Moses seems less important to me now. Also, the open gate strength is 10 kN instead of 8 kN.
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Oct 3, 2008 - 11:59am PT
similar to what clint mentions, i've noticed some biners that have that little rope 'pocket' on the end seem to get loaded weird on hangers in certain orientations...anyone else seen this too ?
MisterE

Trad climber
My Inner Nut
Oct 3, 2008 - 12:06pm PT
I was thinking notch loading as well, but also possibly a side-impact combined with gate compromise?

Glad no one was seriously injured.

Erik
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Oct 3, 2008 - 12:25pm PT
yeah, the fact that your fall only created 4 kN max really makes for some weirdness.

Thanks for the good follow up.
Personally, I love wiregates, only I use the ball lock things from DMM, and a few heliums from WC.

Chris, this situation is so bizarre that there really can't be any rational reason to give up on wiregates, unless your wiregates are just crappy ones.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Oct 4, 2008 - 08:02am PT
Shameless bump, cause some moron(s) bumped a pile of USELESS OLD climbing related threads, and ran the current stuff off the front page.

halfhitch

Trad climber
Steamboat Springs, CO
Oct 4, 2008 - 12:09pm PT
From Clint's picture depicting the clip of what essentially is a "D" shaped biner, It looks fundamentally wrong to me in that a "D" biner's max load is at the apex - one contact point with the hanger instead of two contact points shown?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Oct 4, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
Clint- Great pics man. Look at that leverage!!!
Anastasia

climber
Not there
Oct 4, 2008 - 03:36pm PT
BUMP

labrat

Trad climber
Nevada
Oct 4, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
I seem to remember that the hanger on that bolt is loose, this just seems to add to the variables. I hate going that way and now I have one more reason.
Erik
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Oct 4, 2008 - 05:46pm PT
I think the lesson here is never trust your life to Off Brands. Mammut is not known for hardware. I don't know but they probably dont even make those biners themselves. If it has to hold stick to Black Diamond, or Petzel and you cant go wrong. The testing regime that black diamond uses is far superior to other companies'
I have seen Omega Pacific biners break too. Black diamond certifies other companies equipment for them because they have established the best industry standard.
Is it possible that the unit was used to pull a car out of a ditch?
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Oct 4, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
Danger Will Robinson!!! Last post smells like... dogshyte!
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Oct 4, 2008 - 05:56pm PT
Hugs and kisses to you too nice guy
hoipolloi

climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
Oct 4, 2008 - 06:10pm PT
In regards to the first photo posted by Clint. I have been told that the way the carabiner is clipped in that picture can 'technically' cause cross-loading forces on the biner because of the two points of contact on the carabiner (each piece of the metal of the hanger touching the carabiner).

This was pointed out to me by a Spanish friend who did a lot of sport climbing and was training for guide certs in Spain. Not sure about the validity of the statement. Thoughts?
WBraun

climber
Oct 4, 2008 - 06:27pm PT


Hmmmmmnnnnnn?

Clint, the biner in this photo looks like it could be getting a dangerous leverage type load if the bolt hanger was angled such as this photo's demonstration?

Just looks that way to me ..... ?????
hoipolloi

climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
Oct 4, 2008 - 08:13pm PT
thanks for the picture Werner. Thats exactly what I was trying to say. My friend said that force is equal to cross loading.

wonder if its true.

or does this specific carabiner just suck balls?
slobmonster

Trad climber
berkeley, ca
Oct 4, 2008 - 08:29pm PT
I suspect that this biner does not (simply) "suck balls."

dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Oct 4, 2008 - 08:38pm PT
I suggest that you are right, but that chainsaw does.
Greg Barnes

climber
Oct 4, 2008 - 10:08pm PT
chainsaw, the biner that Chris Mac broke was a BD.

The biner that the Korean dude broke on Shaky Flakes was a Lucky rated to 8kN gate open (no deformation on the gate, it looks like the biner broken here). We have it somewhere.

A friend broke two blue-gate REI biners in one fall - those are the mid-90s ones that look like BD light-D biners. First broke a fixed nut, then the biners on the next two pieces broke.
Double D

climber
Oct 4, 2008 - 10:37pm PT
Scary thought but it makes sense that it would be under a large cross-load situation if clipped that way. It's an eye opener for sure. Thanks for all of the posts. I know I will always check the angle of the bolt to biner when clipping from here on.
thedogfather

climber
Midwest
Oct 5, 2008 - 08:31am PT
I am fairly new to sport climbing and was never too concerned about which way I put the top biner through the bolt (left to right or right to left). I have recently gotten into the habit of always clipping like this after climbing with a more accomplished sport climber::


I would assume that is always the preferred way to go after seeing the double contact points that Werner pointed out that are possible if you clip like this:



Am I correct here?
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