Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Zoo
climber
Fremont, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2008 - 02:51pm PT
|
To Rhyang: Good call, September 27th.
To Clint: I don't know what kind of bolt hanger it was. I plan to go back to check out the location of the bolt, take some pictures, etc. I don't know when I'll find the time though. The gate was opening from the top. I rotate my biners when I clip my own gear, I'm not sure why I didn't on that bolt. Torquing in some abnormal way is quite possible. I think the biner was hanging free in the hanger, but who knows what happened after I slipped.
n.b. Mammut makes a Bionic Wiregate Biner that has a hood over the gate which eliminates some of the problems discussed here. The extra 7 grams/biner over the Moses seems less important to me now. Also, the open gate strength is 10 kN instead of 8 kN.
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
|
|
similar to what clint mentions, i've noticed some biners that have that little rope 'pocket' on the end seem to get loaded weird on hangers in certain orientations...anyone else seen this too ?
|
|
MisterE
Trad climber
My Inner Nut
|
|
I was thinking notch loading as well, but also possibly a side-impact combined with gate compromise?
Glad no one was seriously injured.
Erik
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
yeah, the fact that your fall only created 4 kN max really makes for some weirdness.
Thanks for the good follow up.
Personally, I love wiregates, only I use the ball lock things from DMM, and a few heliums from WC.
Chris, this situation is so bizarre that there really can't be any rational reason to give up on wiregates, unless your wiregates are just crappy ones.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
Shameless bump, cause some moron(s) bumped a pile of USELESS OLD climbing related threads, and ran the current stuff off the front page.
|
|
halfhitch
Trad climber
Steamboat Springs, CO
|
|
From Clint's picture depicting the clip of what essentially is a "D" shaped biner, It looks fundamentally wrong to me in that a "D" biner's max load is at the apex - one contact point with the hanger instead of two contact points shown?
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
Clint- Great pics man. Look at that leverage!!!
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Nevada
|
|
I seem to remember that the hanger on that bolt is loose, this just seems to add to the variables. I hate going that way and now I have one more reason.
Erik
|
|
chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
|
|
I think the lesson here is never trust your life to Off Brands. Mammut is not known for hardware. I don't know but they probably dont even make those biners themselves. If it has to hold stick to Black Diamond, or Petzel and you cant go wrong. The testing regime that black diamond uses is far superior to other companies'
I have seen Omega Pacific biners break too. Black diamond certifies other companies equipment for them because they have established the best industry standard.
Is it possible that the unit was used to pull a car out of a ditch?
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
Danger Will Robinson!!! Last post smells like... dogshyte!
|
|
chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
|
|
Hugs and kisses to you too nice guy
|
|
hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
|
|
In regards to the first photo posted by Clint. I have been told that the way the carabiner is clipped in that picture can 'technically' cause cross-loading forces on the biner because of the two points of contact on the carabiner (each piece of the metal of the hanger touching the carabiner).
This was pointed out to me by a Spanish friend who did a lot of sport climbing and was training for guide certs in Spain. Not sure about the validity of the statement. Thoughts?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Hmmmmmnnnnnn?
Clint, the biner in this photo looks like it could be getting a dangerous leverage type load if the bolt hanger was angled such as this photo's demonstration?
Just looks that way to me ..... ?????
|
|
hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
|
|
thanks for the picture Werner. Thats exactly what I was trying to say. My friend said that force is equal to cross loading.
wonder if its true.
or does this specific carabiner just suck balls?
|
|
slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
I suspect that this biner does not (simply) "suck balls."
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
I suggest that you are right, but that chainsaw does.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
chainsaw, the biner that Chris Mac broke was a BD.
The biner that the Korean dude broke on Shaky Flakes was a Lucky rated to 8kN gate open (no deformation on the gate, it looks like the biner broken here). We have it somewhere.
A friend broke two blue-gate REI biners in one fall - those are the mid-90s ones that look like BD light-D biners. First broke a fixed nut, then the biners on the next two pieces broke.
|
|
Double D
climber
|
|
Scary thought but it makes sense that it would be under a large cross-load situation if clipped that way. It's an eye opener for sure. Thanks for all of the posts. I know I will always check the angle of the bolt to biner when clipping from here on.
|
|
thedogfather
climber
Midwest
|
|
I am fairly new to sport climbing and was never too concerned about which way I put the top biner through the bolt (left to right or right to left). I have recently gotten into the habit of always clipping like this after climbing with a more accomplished sport climber::
I would assume that is always the preferred way to go after seeing the double contact points that Werner pointed out that are possible if you clip like this:
Am I correct here?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!