Communists (OT)

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Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 21, 2014 - 09:50pm PT
blueringworm: thanks for actually answering my question. Now, tell us how often the U.S. Government has punished your home-grown war criminals. I'll go easy on you - just the ones who committed atrocities in the last 50 years.

By the way, I find it disgusting that a human being of any political persuasion can so flippantly dismiss the reality of genocide. Clearly you have not matured enough as a man to comprehend the horror or finality of death, especially violent death.

Now, without bothering to contest your numbers for deaths under communist rule, I can't recall a single posting that indicated admiration for either Stalin or Mao, under whose rule there is no doubt that millions died. Next, I submit that these monsters were communist in name only - sort of like every psychotic arsehole in the U.S.who claims to be a Christian. Or a patriot. Or the Bush family and their buddies claiming to be members of the human race.

Pretty well everybody who is debating your fascist logic is trying to inform you that there are, as I suggested, maybe twelve real communists in the U.S. these days, and that your paranoid conspiracy fantasy is ridiculous.

There is nothing I am aware of in Marxism (the original and only variety of communism at the time) that condones the mass murder of innocents.

After Stalin died, most (if not all) of his henchmen were promptly executed by COMMUNISTS - most notably Beria, Stalin's favourite murderer.

Since the death of Stalin, I would suggest that the death toll of innocents under the capitalist policies of the U.S. (and the parade of corrupt stooges in other nations in the U.S. sphere of influence) is at the very least comparable to those of the post-Stalinist communist world. Arguably even higher.

Oh, yeah - I don't give a flying f*#k what you think. At least try to use generally accepted sources to back up your allegations.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 22, 2014 - 05:43am PT
Religion is the opium of the people.

Work is the curse of the drinking class.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:30am PT
Now, without bothering to contest your numbers for deaths under communist rule, I can't recall a single posting that indicated admiration for either Stalin or Mao, under whose rule there is no doubt that millions died. Next, I submit that these monsters were communist in name only - sort of like every psychotic arsehole in the U.S.who claims to be a Christian. Or a patriot. Or the Bush family and their buddies claiming to be members of the human race.

Worth repeating. Why? Cause it is so true. And I only recently figured out how to post quotes.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
from The Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03435a.htm
The Catharist system was a simultaneous attack on the Catholic Church and the then existing State. The Church was directly assailed in its doctrine and hierarchy. The denial of the value of oaths, and the suppression, at least in theory, of the right to punish, undermined the basis of the Christian State. But the worst danger was that the triumph of the heretical principles meant the extinction of the human race. This annihilation was the direct consequence of the Catharist doctrine, that all intercourse between the sexes ought to be avoided and that suicide or the Endura, under certain circumstances, is not only lawful but commendable. The assertion of some writers, like Charles Molinier, that Catholic and Catharist teaching respecting marriage are identical, is an erroneous interpretation of Catholic doctrine and practice. Among Catholics, the priest is forbidden to marry, but the faithful can merit eternal happiness in the married state. For the Cathari, no salvation was possible without previous renunciation of marriage. Mr. H.C. Lea, who cannot be suspected of partiality towards the Catholic Church, writes: "However much we may deprecate the means used for its (Catharism) suppression and commiserate those who suffered for conscience' sake, we cannot but admit that the cause of orthodoxy was in this case the cause of progress and civilization. Had Catharism become dominant, or even had it been allowed to exist on equal terms, its influence could not have failed to prove disastrous." (See Lea, Inquisition, I, 106.)
"...was a simultaneous attack on the Catholic Church and the then existing State."
The Church (the only true church by the way) and State were not separate. One more good reason for our 1st Amendment.

"But the worst danger was that the triumph of the heretical principles meant the extinction of the human race."
How so?
"This annihilation was the direct consequence of the Catharist doctrine, that all intercourse between the sexes ought to be avoided and that suicide or the Endura, under certain circumstances, is not only lawful but commendable"
"Catharism become dominant, or even had it been allowed to exist on equal terms, its influence could not have failed to prove disastrous."
So let's think this through: no sex, ergo the Catharists were doomed to self extinction. What disastrous threat was that to the Church-State? That they would out compete Catholicism?
Obviously enough threat to justify wiping them all out.

The essential characteristic of the Catharist faith was Dualism, i.e. the belief in a good and an evil principle, of whom the former created the invisible and spiritual universe, while the latter was the author of the material world.
Seems like a pretty good interpretation of life at the time. Life in the material world was really not a lot of fun. Unless you happened to be a Bishop or Pope surrounded by wealth and power sending your boys and men off on another crusade against the Infidel.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
Next, I submit that these monsters were communist in name only - sort of like every psychotic arsehole in the U.S.who claims to be a Christian.

What? Mao, Pol pot, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Castro/Che were all avowed commies. including the little Ill in North Korea. Most of the South Asians learned their trade in France, by 'intellectuals', kinda like our universities.

The killed because of their communist ideology and theories.

Now, tell us how often the U.S. Government has punished your home-grown war criminals. I'll go easy on you - just the ones who committed atrocities in the last 50 years.

Easy. Abu Gharab, the Marines pissing on corpses, the Marine who went on a night rampage in a village killing Afghanis in cold blood. But sometimes we go to far and prosecute guys just doing their jobs. Michael Behenna is being released finally, he was just protecting himself from jihadi. There have been others.

Pretty well everybody who is debating your fascist logic is trying to inform you that there are, as I suggested, maybe twelve real communists in the U.S. these days, and that your paranoid conspiracy fantasy is ridiculous.

This is common communist propaganda amongst the left. "Ah, that sh#t is dead, you're paranoid, communism is dead". No it's not. I direct you again to the Communist Party USA website;

http://www.cpusa.org/

I'll bet there are more than 12 members that adhere to communist philosophy.

There is nothing I am aware of in Marxism (the original and only variety of communism at the time) that condones the mass murder of innocents.

Then why does Marxism ALWAYS result in mass murder and oppression of innocents?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
Then why does Marxism ALWAYS result in mass murder and oppression of innocents?

Mostly for the same reasons that other political, economic, and religious beliefs do.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
Define: "adhering to communist philosophy"

be specific
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
I can't find a special dues offer for membership on the Communist website for academics. Can someone point it out to me?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
Then why does Marxism ALWAYS result in mass murder and oppression of innocents?

Ummm, is that going on in Sweden right now?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Thanks! Will do...
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
Bluering! Are you back to your imaginary commies in the U.S woodpile spew???"

We know how you enjoy quoting from your 1958 Mormon, ex-FBI agent, dis-owned by his right-wing, fellow-Commie-paranoids, book author.

I think you are ignoring some questions from this thread?

What about all the Christians that your fellow Christians have killed in the name of Christ?


Albigensian Crusade (1208-49) 1,000,000 killed.
The traditional death toll given for the war against the Cathars is one million, which is repeated in these: ■John M. Robertson, A Short History of Christianity, London: Watts, 1902, p.254 ("It has been reckoned that a million of all ages and both sexes were slain.")
■Christopher Brookmyre, Not the End of the World (New York: Grove Press, 1998) p.39
■Max Dimont, Jews, God, and History, (New York: Penguin, 1994) p.225: 1,000,000 Frenchmen suspected of being Albigensians slain
■Dizerega Gus, Pagans & Christians: The Personal Spiritual Experience (St. Paul, MN: Llewellyn, 2001) p.195
■Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History (Orlando, FL: Morningstar & Lark, 1995) p.74
■Michael Newton, Holy Homicide (Port Townsend, WA: Loompanics Unlimited, 1998) p.117

◦Rummel: 200,000 democides
◦Individual incidents: ■Flexner, Pessimist's Guide to History: 20,000 massacred in Beziers.
■Ellerbe: ■Beziers: 20-100,000
■St. Nazair: 12,000
■Tolouse: 10,000

■Newton: 20-100,000 massacred in Beziers.
■Sumption, Albigensian Crusade (1978):

http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
Is the Communist Party Black Tie or Semi-Formal? Are you guys going?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
^ Doesn't matter to me. A little black, er, I mean Red Dress is all I need. :)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
If in the year 2014 you still fear communists you better not turn off the lights at night. Don't worry...medication can make those voices you hear very muted.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
Ummm, is that going on in Sweden right now?


Check yer facts. Sweden is Socialist, not Marxist.

EDIT: And Fritz still only list one side of the story. Do you know how many Christians were forced from their homes the past couple of years in Iraq? Under the threat of convert or die? Over a million.

Do you know how many Nigerian Christian were killed in the past 2 years for being Christian? I can give you a map I made that has been tracking it for over 4 years.

You really want to make Christians seem like the violent ones, but you and I know the reality. Why do you keep pushing the bullsh#t?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
Um, Sweden is not socialist either.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
Check yer facts. Sweden is Socialist, not Marxist.

OMG


Um, Sweden is not socialist either.

I would disagree.
The legacy of Social Democratic Party governance in Sweden is widely regarded as increasing the quality of life, naturally among those who benefit directly from an affluent, low-inequality society, but even among the wealthy. One Volvo executive admitted that a strong social welfare state, like the Swedish, helps finance a quality of life that low individual taxes cannot. When faced with the question, "Why don't you leave (Sweden)? Certainly, you would pay a lot lower taxes and probably also have a higher salary in the U.S.", he responded, "Yes, of course, I would have a lot more money in my pocket. But I would also almost never get home before 7 o'clock and I certainly would not have the vacations everyone has a right to here... and you know what else, I would have to spend a lot more money on insurance, college for my kids, and travel back home to my family. In the end, I'm not really sure I would be any better off."
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
Bang on, Ghost.

blueringworm: Perhaps the perversions of Marxism come from the same place as the Bush family (and their toadies) perversions of democracy - and common decency.

I suggest that you tread VERY carefully about hanging the atrocities committed by Pol Pot exclusively on the monsters masquerading as commies - the U.S. did not exactly walk away blameless from that horror show.

As for Ho Chi Minh, first of all, he was a patriot who helped downed U.S. (and other Allied)airmen to escape from the Japanese during WW II - under the (mis)understanding that Viet Nam would be granted independence after the war. You bet innocents died during that 30 year conflict, which is one of the ugly realities of civil wars. Perhaps nearly 4 million Vietnamese soldiers and civilians might be alive today if the U.S. didn't keep propping up corrupt puppet regimes over there with the full power of the world's most powerful military, and a "Domino Theory" which was every bit as much a cynical lie as the WMD bullshit regarding Iraq.

By the way, Ho Chi Minh took down Pol Pot (commies, you say), and also fought a war against the Chinese (more commies). So much for communist solidarity.

Castro and Che were also patriots. Castro had every right to free his country from Batista, who was a vicious stooge of the U.S., not to mention the Mafia. I have no doubt that innocents got killed during the revolution, but those numbers pale to relative insignificance when compared to the victims of both Bush presidencies.

Thanks for your mind-boggingly brief catalogue of U.S. war crimes during the last 50 years. Earlier, you made the IDIOTIC comment that the U.S. is justified in ignoring the authority of the International Criminal Court, since it's "against the Constitution"...

Now, just once, try to put your fascist ideology aside to ponder this:

Under the existing law of their nations, the unspeakable atrocities committed by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and, of course, Reagan and both Bushes were all perfectly legal.

Please get your thumb out of your arse and try to find at least one FACTUAL argument to defend your original premise. You dishonour the memory of the U.S. citizens who have given their lives to give you the right to spout this deranged, hateful bullsh#t. They deserve better.

P.S.: Re your equally idiotic comment that "Sweden is Socialist, not Marxist", aren't you the same mouth breather that has been consistently claiming that everyone whose politics are to the left of your fascist fairyland are ALL commies?

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
Yeah, whatever, despots always take down other despots. It's all about power and control. See Stalin vs. Hitler.

Your relentless obsession with the "tyrant" Bush is really weak. We never conquered anything like we did in WWII. We always leave nowadays when the sh#t calms down...sometimes too soon, of late.

EDIT: Sweden is used to be Socialist like China was Communist. Yeah, they sell some stuff now.

You're making making my 'Socialism sucks' argument for me...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
Sweden socialist?

IKEA makes American capitalist pigs look like petty amateurs.

So, what's your point? That there's no free enterprise in a socialist economy? If so, you are wrong. I reference the writings of Norman Thomas and Michael Harrington.

Furthermore I submit to you that the small businessman in this country would be much better off in a more social democratic regime than the present Wall Street oligarchy.
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