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jim
Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 12:45am PT
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hmm....i thought you were the expert in this area. i guess i would have to say, if you value sandstone formations, or the opinions of people who do (if there are any sandstone lovers), then stay away from it. otherwise, sandstone is gonna be gone soon anyways right? its like stomping on a beautiful sandcastle, its bound to happen soon anyways. and how many sandstone routes turn into popular trad routes? im never climbing any of that crap, so do as much as you want.
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Mr. L
Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 01:33am PT
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20 beaks and 20 blades? I know that you are a clean climbing aficionado so I trust they were necessary. Can you imagine any future clean climbing technology that would allow someone do that FA without beaks and blades? I can't. Maybe I lack imagination.
The analogy is not perfect (sandstone is diffferent in many ways from ganite), but the process that many nailing routes undergo on El Cap is just sped up on sandstone routes. Maybe those beak and blade placements will eventually become some nice clean placements, maybe they'll crater?
I like nailing on granite. Sometimes I do so when it's possible to make a clean placement (hmm.. A2 or C4..Bam), but because of the nature of sandstone I think there is a greater imperative to climb clean if it's at all possible. It sounds like it wasn't possible. It might not be cool, but I think it's definitely okay, and I'd like to hear more about the route.
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DNA Man
Novice climber
Livermore Ca
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Aug 29, 2002 - 04:31am PT
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>Can you imagine any future clean climbing technology >that would allow someone do that FA without beaks >and blades? I can't. Maybe I lack imagination
Oh, how about a hanger the size of a watch, with a gecko foot like base? Tiny battery/circuitry causes fibers to stick to the rock on a molecular level.
Or a genetic blend of a limpet and a gecko, with a hanger shaped shell. After a few weeks it wanders off by itself and decomposes.
100 years ago nearly no one could fly and we burned whales for light.
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Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 10:50am PT
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Wow...look at Jim go. What a tough guy.
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Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 11:09am PT
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"sandstone is going to be gone anyway"? wow, there's some philosophical power. Suppose earth will be gone soon also, so vote Bush.
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Mid Cal
Intermediate climber
los banos
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Aug 29, 2002 - 11:14am PT
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Well, Chris, I guess that depends on your sensitivity to the environment vs. your desire for the climb. It's true that eventually the formations will erode away to nothing but we'll be taking dirt naps by that time, so who cares, right? I haven't climbed everything else that you have so I don't feel the need to go explore new routes, there's plenty left for me, so I wouldn't do it.
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Will
Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 12:54pm PT
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To me, it is all a question of whether the line is worth it. It is a tough call without seeing the line, but I would trust Chris Mac's judgment on this one.
Most first ascents in Zion, Fisher Towers, El Cap etc... required some nailing and bolt placement. The bottom line is in order for some formations to be climbed pitons and bolts will have to be used. (Pending DNA man's technologic advancements of course...)
Any route that begins as a nailing route will under go a metamorphosis or sorts. It has been said before on this thread that this process happens much more quickly on Sandstone than Granite. Five or six ascents from now this new line will probably have a much different character.
While I don't like it, this metamorphosis is part of climbing. All climbing changes the rock to some degree. Incredible Hand Crack and Supercrack are getting larger because so many people climb them. Reed's Direct in Yose can be spotted from a mile away because of it's white polish.
If the line is worth it, my feeling is to have a go. If the line doesn't look that great, don't just do it so that a first ascent can occur. Not everything needs to be climbed.
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eminoh
Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 01:05pm PT
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Be cognisant of travel impact and dicide with an unselfish mind whether a project is meritorius to our collective world. Could its ascent enrich the lives of enough (?) climbers and others hearing of or repeating the ascent? Recycle. Buy recycled products. Contribute to green organizations and causes. Do as much as reasonably possible to keep the earth in good shape. But stay off the walls beacause there will be traces of our having been there? Never go off the trail because footprints might be left? Think and act conservationally, but not at the expense of personal adventure.
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eminoh
Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 01:25pm PT
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Be cognizant of travel impact and decide with an unselfish mind whether an ascent's impact and projected longevity negate its benefit to the collective world. Will it's ascent enrich the lives of enough (?) climbers and others hearing of or repeating the ascent?
Recycle. Buy recycled products. Contribute to green organizations and causes. Do everything reasonably (?) possible to keep the earth in good shape. But stay off the walls because we might leave traces of our passing? Leave that perfect powder slope trackless because it's more beautiful untouched? Never hike off trail because footprints might be left there?
Change is the inevitable process. Granite, sandstone, ice, snow -- all our adventure mediums -- have different characteristics of longevity/durability. Consider others' experience and think/act conservatively wherever traveling, but keep pursuing adventure.
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eminoh
Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 01:27pm PT
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Of course I'm new at this.
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Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 01:28pm PT
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There are are just too many of us in the world generally, and in the world of climbing, to without selfish egocentrism suggest that personal adventure outweighs conservation per Eminoh.
On the other hand (and I'm an aid moron so correct me if wrong), after a few ascents, perhaps additional nailing won't be relevant anymore and it will go clean, markedly reducing the additional impact after that? Actual environmental impact is probably minimal also if its off the beaten track? Maybe then it's OK.
Think Serenity Crack-- damage done, but no more occuring. Was it worth it from the start? I don't know, but its a wonderful climb now and further impact is minimal. It still feels a bit like guilty pleasure though.
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Jeepers
Novice climber
Fisher Towers
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Aug 29, 2002 - 01:44pm PT
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Creative scarring is an option, with an eye toward eventual HAFWEN condition. Reminds me of the question how many bolts are justified on a new line?
As far as nailing cr@p lines, I think that's the best place to do it.
Jeep
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Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 03:01pm PT
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I've got no problem with nailing on existing crack/seams, etc... It would be highly hypocritical to say its OK on granite but not sandstone.
But what I really have a problem with is the practice of "trenching" copperhead placements on the harder aid routes in the desert, especially the Fishers. For a good discussion of this issue see:
http://www.climbingmoab.com/rock/db/fisher_towers/cottontail_tower/intifada.html
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Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 03:24pm PT
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why is it hypocritical to distinguish sandstone and granite? Is it also hypocritical to say that shitting in the ocean is unlike shitting in small oasis in the desert?
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Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 03:36pm PT
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Nice try, but bad analogy my friend.
A more apt analogy to granite vs. sandstone nailing would be shitting on the beach and shitting in the ocean. It may take a little bit longer, but yeah, that shits still going to end up in the ocean.
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Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 03:39pm PT
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Let's try again friend. You say that the relative degradation rates of granite and sandstone are not relevant to the discussion on nailing. Assuming that degradation of the rock is the issue here, why are degradation rates not important? If my assumption is incorrect, i.e., you do not believe that degradation of the rock is important, then we can end the discussion.
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leadbonesjones
Novice climber
California
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Aug 29, 2002 - 04:01pm PT
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I appreciate your candor in the ethical question of nailing on sandstone climbs. Stoney Point, Los Angeles, is a testament to the destructiveness of pitons in soft sandstone. Most of the freeclimbing holds are piton scars, enhance holds or outright chipped routes. Stoney is a great bouldering area but not very aesthetic.
I think your exploration of new routes is acceptable if you consider the long term impact of your actions. My suggestion is to keep new nailing routes, in environmentally sensitive areas such as Zion, to yourself. A Supertopo or other route information about your new nailing routes would turn a beautiful climb into another Stoney Point.
A few years ago a friend, W.H., added two new routes on the El Captain. He did not provide detailed information on the routes. His vague description and sandbag beta left subsequent ascents to only the most adventurous and committed climbers.
P.S. Thanks Chris for the great photo of the North Dome Gully descent. It saved my partner and I a major epic on the descent. Your valuable photo also saved the delicate ground cover that would have been damaged or destroyed if we had lost our way.
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Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 04:04pm PT
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Well, what then is your proposed "degradation rate limit" for nailing? Apparently, that limit is somewhere between that for granite and sandstone. Very convenient... you can still go nail away on the Captain while proudly proclaiming your environmental sensitivity by condemning nailing on sandstone.
I don't know what to say... nailing on granite scars the rock; nailing on sandstone scars the rock. I think drawing the line between the two is hypocritcal at worst, self-serving at best.
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Novice climber
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Aug 29, 2002 - 04:07pm PT
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...the last post was in response to the post before leadbonesjones
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