Apr 29: Bolt Wars Still Alive in USA: Ground Up or Top Down?

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Mick Ryan

Trad climber
Kendal, English Lake District
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 29, 2008 - 05:35am PT


How can one new route spawn 150,000 words of controversy?

Last night, the SuperTopo.com thread about Growing Up, a 2000' line on Yosemite's Half Dome South Face, clocked its 2000th post, with little sign of deceleration. The central issue is the first ascensionists' top-down inspection and bolting of the upper half of the route; anathema to a small but distinguished group of US climbers who still believe all pioneering - especially on the hallowed granite of Yosemite - should be ground-up.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=298558

I mean, how could we not?

Mick
Strider

Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
Apr 29, 2008 - 06:01am PT
That was an amazingly accurate, quick summary.

-n
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 29, 2008 - 10:09am PT
that's a nice news article, Mick...

interesting to guess at the number of words outside of the STForum written about GU and about the STForum discussion. Professor Milktoast is giving lessons in US Climbing history over at rc.com, interesting to note that the student body over there isn't all that involved.

There is great material in the GU thread. Anyone up for summarizing it in thousands of words, rather than the 100 or so in Russ' brilliant paragraph? Maybe not... but it would be worth the effort.
Mick Ryan

Trad climber
Kendal, English Lake District
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2008 - 10:59am PT
Yes Ed, Toby did a great job there.
Jeremy Handren

climber
NV
Apr 29, 2008 - 11:06am PT
Mick, who gives a @#$% what happens in the big granite landfill, the important thing is that I'll be on the grit late may/early June. Are you around?

Ps. Plenty of room on the rock for energetic climbers to express themselves in a variety of ways. This is a good thing.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 29, 2008 - 11:10am PT
How did you get 150,000 words? Hardman totaled 250,000 words that would print at 1000+ pages. I didn't believe that for a minute. An average novel is only 50-90,000 words.

Just wondering.

Peace

Karl

jstan

climber
Apr 29, 2008 - 12:56pm PT
Mick:
Have to say this. You Brits need to be more selective in the people with whom you hang out. And I can't believe you really mean to disestablish the BW. I mean...I mean!

Just on the chance, have you heard from Roger Birch or his brother, I believe it was Dave? I am sure he has long since retired from the Foreign Service. As I remember they climbed in the Lake District.
thesiger

Trad climber
A desert kingdom
Apr 29, 2008 - 01:05pm PT
I am guessing the author sampled the word count on a number of 20-post SuperTopo web pages, averaged the results, then multiplied by 100?
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Apr 29, 2008 - 01:11pm PT
In fact, in a brief pause reminiscent of WW1's Christmas Truce, all protagonists forgot their differences to take aim instead at Andrew Bisharat...


hahaha
Anastasia

climber
Not here
Apr 29, 2008 - 01:59pm PT
"... - anathema to a small but distinguished group of US climbers who still believe all pioneering - especially on the hallowed granite of Yosemite - should be ground-up."

Are you telling me that somehow I am always meeting this rare breed everywhere I go... Or... Maybe this traditional practice is not so rare? I don't think this is "a small group." Most of the climbers I've met in Joshua Tree, Red Rock Nevada and Colorado are practicing ground up tactics. Call us traditionalist, in my mind I view us as a group that likes having the full experience of the challenge the rock offers.

AF
SlipKnot

Social climber
Apr 29, 2008 - 03:00pm PT
"The Growing Up team launched up crack systems for 1000' to where the granite face blanks out, but then switched to a top-down approach to ensure the route continued up the most-climbable proximate slab features, arguing that Yosemite had too many “road to nowhere” bolted lines resulting from ground-up attempts."

GU, of course, is itself a "road to nowhere" in that after already passing a point or two of required A0, the route blanks out. It is only via a 60' bolt ladder that the climb could continue to power forward.

The big question I have from the article is this: Is it really only a "small ... group of ... climbers" who reject the top-down style in Yosemite? If so, the debate is over and all that remains is some grumbling by the those who lost the debate.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Apr 29, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
Here's the info on the thread pasted into Pages app, when the post count was a mere 1958:



As to the number of pages, here's what an average page looks like (scaled down to fit):

Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Apr 29, 2008 - 04:55pm PT
"... - anathema to a small but distinguished group of US climbers who still believe all pioneering - especially on the hallowed granite of Yosemite - should be ground-up."

Are you telling me that somehow I am always meeting this rare breed everywhere I go... Or... Maybe this traditional practice is not so rare? I don't think this is "a small group." Most of the climbers I've met in Joshua Tree, Red Rock Nevada and Colorado are practicing ground up tactics. Call us traditionalist, in my mind I view us as a group that likes having the full experience of the challenge the rock offers.

Serendipity or guilt by association?

You've met a bunch of climbers. How do you know their inclinations and history with regard to first ascents?

Take the Climbfest folks. What, one vocal ground up traditionalist? The rest? Probably a mixed bag. But, certainly most there haven't always pioneered ground up only.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC
(both rap drilled and ground up last weekend, btw. I don't know whether to be conflicted or confused, or both...ha ha)
SlipKnot

Social climber
Apr 29, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
"... - anathema to a small but distinguished group of US climbers who still believe all pioneering - especially on the hallowed granite of Yosemite - should be ground-up."

The key words here may be "US". The viewpoint quoted is not that of a local, or even of a US climber. Rather, it’s that of an outsider who is evaluating Yosemite by the ethics common to where he climbs. The ethics of any climbing area are established, or at least should be established, by those who climb there. If the global community is to decide a single set of ethics for all climbing areas worldwide, then I agree that those that object to GU are a "small" group. But if it those who climb in the Valley that decide Valley ethics, then the group is not “small”, but rather is the vast majority. Another objection to the article is the perhaps inadvertent phrase "hallowed granite", which seems to have the calculated intent of making the ground-upers look like self-righteous a$$holes who don’t want anyone to tarnish their “hallowed granite”.
DParker

climber
Orange, California
Apr 29, 2008 - 08:42pm PT
Very often 'ethics' are confused with 'style'. In my view, GU is a question of style, not ethics. I've climbed in Yosemite many times and though I've never 'lived' there for an extended period (i.e. not a local, not a regular), I support the first ascent party's right (any first ascent party's right) to establish the climb in their own style. There's no way to know what the majority of climbers who've climbed in Yosemite might say about this question since they represent the 'silent majority' (as opposed to the passionate minority that post here).
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Apr 29, 2008 - 08:45pm PT
Anybody who doesn't consider the valley hallowed granite, is an a-hole, whether a merican of furner.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 29, 2008 - 08:52pm PT
Actually, the Growing Up thread is decelerating like mad. It's currently at 2,030, with only ten posts so far today (April 29th). As the original post was on March 29th...

Also, the post to the UK climbing forum was rather editorial in nature. Guess they need more traffic. :-)
Jingy

Social climber
Flatland, Ca
Apr 29, 2008 - 09:43pm PT
Forget it Mick...

This thread will never match that of the "Original" thread bulk.

Let's keep the thread in the cloth....

Back to the discussion!

LOL

Cheers Mick, hope everything is going well with you an yours!
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 29, 2008 - 09:54pm PT
Perhaps we should go to Wales and put some bolts in Cloggy. On rappel, naturally. That'd give Mick and friends something to talk about, eh? :-)
thesiger

Trad climber
A desert kingdom
Apr 30, 2008 - 03:30am PT
Anders, it has been done before.

A much funnier way to wind up Brits is to remove in-situ chockstones from historically-significant gritstone cracks, applying your superior north american jamming technique to then demonstrate their ascendability sans-chock.

This was done to a classic offwidth, Right Eliminate, five years ago, resulting in a cyber-furor that makes the Growing Up thread look like "Chicken Soup for the Soul". The chockstone was reinstated by a vigilante group and remains there despite later evidence that its origin post-dates the first ascent by Joe Brown (who was effectively soloing hard 5.10 OW in 1951 ...)

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=1601
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