TR solo with a Pro Traxion?

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Messages 1 - 101 of total 101 in this topic
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 2, 2008 - 12:45pm PT
Yes, I know it is not as good as the mini t, bigger, bulkier, etc, but is there any reason not to solo with the protraxion? The rope engagement seems to be the same on both devices.

I ask because I own a protraxion, but no mini t.

thanks.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Apr 2, 2008 - 12:50pm PT
I'd only hesitate because both devices have teeth, and, a slip might shred your rope sheath.

Another issue is that if you fell and it locked up on the rope, there's really not a great way to release it under a load. That's the beauty of a gri gri. But, the gri gri doesn't travel up the rope as nicely.

I've used an USHBA basic to TR on a few occasions. I like the no teeth aspect of it. And it travels up the rope no problemo.

Both traxions are pretty darn handy devices though...

-Brian in SLC

Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Apr 2, 2008 - 12:53pm PT
I've used the Ushba device. I quit when I read about all of the ropes it's pinched in half.

caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2008 - 01:00pm PT
Well, the mini traxion seems to be the device of choice for a lot of people.

I tried several setups last weekend when climbing with a buddy.

The best was a mini t on the belay loop, trailing a ropeman on a shoulder length sling girth hitched to the belay loop.

also tried mini t on a chest harness (two shoulderlength slings girth hitched behind the back, over the arms) and the protraxion on the belay loop. This moved pretty well, but if you fall, the chest harness catches you, pulls up and pinches your face rather uncomfortably. Any suggestions?

Also clipped backup knots on a separate strand, but this was a big pain in the butt.
tonym

climber
Oklahoma
Apr 2, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
I've been using the Petzl Basic Ascender on my belay loop clipped in with a pearabiner thru the hole just above the ascender jaws. Works like charm the only thing you have to adjust on occasion is the device creeping to one side of the biner if you are making hard moves that put your body into crouched positions. Climbed hundreds of pitches with it, no back-up, taken falls as well. The falls are short almost instantaneous lock-off as there is no slack between you and the cord.
adventurewagen

Trad climber
Seattle
Apr 2, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
I'm interested in this as well. I'm going to have alot of time coming up soon and plan to spend weekdays TR soloing some routes. I can get a mini-traxion as well but seem to hear mixed word on that.

It seems to me just the mini T alone would be good enough? Why would you need another backup. Wouldn't it be safe enough to toss in a single knot just off the deck and then climb with just the mini? I'm not new to rope work, aiding, solo aiding and the works so I'm just wondering why so much hoopla on something that seems so straight forward?

I fix myself a nice thick line, toss on the mini and climb. Nuf said, right?

People keep saying it has teeth that could shred the rope but I see guys fixing lines all the time on routes and running lap after lap with that setup. I've also never heard of anyone shredding a sheath or cutting their rope and plummeting to their death either. No chest harness, no trailing of a ropeman as backup. Just the mini T and a fixed line with some weight on the end and maybe a safety knot in the line to keep from decking assuming the mini t decides not to work.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2008 - 01:21pm PT
I know lots of guys solo with just the mini-t. But I'm a weenie and the ropeman (or some kind of backup) makes me feel better!
Indianclimber

climber
Las Vegas
Apr 2, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
Petzl croll with mini traxtion ,now I have switched to croll and microcender

caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2008 - 01:54pm PT
That is a good looking setup. Emphasis on the good lookin'!

But my primary interest in using the protraxion... is so I don't have to buy new gear.
adventurewagen

Trad climber
Seattle
Apr 2, 2008 - 01:58pm PT
Wow, that is the setup. The climber doesn't hurt the eyes either.

I understand another backup might make some happy. My question is more concerned with using the mini traxion and damaging the rope? A chest harness keeps you from going upside down and a backup I guess helps if you think the mini-T is going to fail and not catch.

Now my buddy has a silent partner as well he says I can borrow. I've never used it but for TR soloing maybe that's the ultimate way to go.

Realistically though, what do all these guys working El Cap use? I can't see them up there with the chest harness mega setup?

Thanks for the picture though! Excellent information.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Apr 2, 2008 - 02:12pm PT
"Realistically though, what do all these guys working El Cap use?"
hahaha... Well, there's just not a whole lot of TR soloing going on on EL Cap. hahaha

Seriously, most people use the Mini Traxion. People who can afford it use two Mini's. Dean uses two Mini's - he climbs El Cap. Maybe that's what you're looking for.

I'd think a problem with the ProTraxion might be how big/long it is. It is significantly longer than the MiniTraxion, which would change the angle of the the device, as well as the rope runnig through it. I haven't tried it, but think it might not want to feed through. Dunno really though.
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Apr 2, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
When it comes to soloing, even top rope, pony up the money and buy the right device for it.

The mini works very well. The pro will suck. I've tried it.

By the way the SP is great for leading but no good for TR.

Gunkie

climber
East Coast US
Apr 2, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
For simple, nearly straight, under a rope length top-rope climbs that are vertical or less steep, I really like my Gibbs Ascender.

The Pro Trax seems cumbersome and toothy. But if that is all you have...

EDIT: I agree with John Mac, the Silent Partner sucks for TR soloing or following your own free leads. However, I love it for lead roped-soloing.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
Actually I think there is a fair bit of TR soloing going on on El Cap. Who knows how much, I'm not sure. I ran into Matt Wilder a couple years ago and he told me he was working the nose cruxes on TR solo with 2 minis. Seems reasonable to assume some of the same going on over on freerider, we are always hearing about the fixed lines.

The protraxion seemed to lock in falls same as the mini. You are right that it is longer and much more cumbersome than the mini. My real interest is safety. I can deal with some hassle, I don't plan on doing a lot of TR solo, just every so often. So I'd rather not buy new gear.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2008 - 02:17pm PT
John Mac, what do you mean the pro will suck?

I tried both, on the same day. They seemed to function the same, just that the pro was heavier and protruded farther for a little extra scrapage.
adventurewagen

Trad climber
Seattle
Apr 2, 2008 - 02:19pm PT
Nefarious wrote:
"Realistically though, what do all these guys working El Cap use?"
hahaha... Well, there's just not a whole lot of TR soloing going on on EL Cap. hahaha


Not correct. There are a good number of people going up there and working routes into the ground using TR soloing methods. I just watched a slide show from a couple guys doing a variation to Muir and read about Steph Davis doing the same. I know other friends who have been up there doing the same thing to wire and get pitches free.

It's helpful to know Dean uses two mini's. The guys I know use a single. I think the question is to get a consensus on what everyone uses so that the best methods can be used. I just figure the guys doing TR soloing on bigger features working big routes probably have the best methods to follow. Hence the question.

John Mac - Why does the SP suck for TR soloing? I haven't tried it but my buddy swears it would work great. I'd love to hear your experiences with it in that application though.
Gunkie

climber
East Coast US
Apr 2, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
Why does the SP suck for TR soloing? I haven't tried it but my buddy swears it would work great. I'd love to hear your experiences with it in that application though.

Sounds like theory.

In my experience, it doen't feed well while following a fixed line. I, too, *thought* it would work nicely on a fixed TR. I was wrong. Once I got the rope weighted just right and climbed straight up, the SP worked OK. Otherwise it would bind or lock-up.

I'd love to use the SP as a TR solo device. It's bomber and I paid a lot for it. If anyone has better techniques, let me know.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Apr 2, 2008 - 02:36pm PT
TR soloing a pitch here and there on El Cap, sure... I'm aware of that. But it's not something that's happening a considerable amount, like it is in the crags.

Regardless, you'll find that most people, known or unknown, use the mini. It is far and away the preferred device.
Indianclimber

climber
Las Vegas
Apr 2, 2008 - 09:01pm PT
Croll and microcender,I switched as this setup is easier on the rope
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2008 - 09:34pm PT
Stylish!
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
bump. hoping to hear from someone who has used the protraxion for tr solo.
WBraun

climber
Apr 3, 2008 - 07:56pm PT
I use a single mini-traxion for years now.

But don't listen to me, WTF do I know .....
klk

Trad climber
cali
Apr 3, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
dood, just bite the bullet and buy the mini.

you know you want to.

all the minis running those fixed lines at cookie . . ..


let's be real-- if you're talking about soloing on mechanical gear, it's no time to start counting pennies. i used to do tons of soloing on jumars, always hated it. but i'll probably buy double minis before next winter rolls around. have someone prodeal you a pair.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Apr 3, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
Well, seems the one person here who has used them says it sucks. Everyone else is recommending mini's.. What more ya lookin' for?
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2008 - 08:11pm PT
yeah, you make a good point.

I'm just trying to be a cheap ass because I already have a protrax I never use and it seems more or less the same device.

EDIT: Nef, point well taken, but I am curious to hear why it sucks.

Cuckawalla

Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
Apr 4, 2008 - 12:30am PT
Alright I will step up. I wanted the beefyness of the Pro TRaxion for a wall hauler but also wanted a solo device. I use the Pro traxion and have no issues. What I do is get a small sling and loop it through the harness to back up the belay loop and clip a steel biner into belay loop and sling. I take a long sling and make an improv chest harness and take a regular biner and clip it to the top hole. This makes it orient right and catch immediately. If any of this is unclear I guess I could snap some pictures... As far as a back up I dont have one but you could trail any manner of device, minitrax, micro sender, tibloc, ect. I guess the Pro Trax is bigger than the Mini, but it is way smaller than a silent partner and works well.
-Jesse
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Apr 4, 2008 - 01:25am PT
I have done tons of solo-toproping for many years, have tried literally every device mentioned and others. My current setup is a mini on a DMM Belaymaster connected to belay loop of harness, along with another on a half length runner girth hitched to harness. Super simple, super bomber, super fast to set up. Just the right amount of slack to reposition while climbing and not weight the rope. The setup shown with the Croll and chest harness works great too, has advantage of shorter fall. However, for me it has two distinct negatives: Have to wear a chest harness, and cannot reposition or climb down at all. For those worried about rope damage with a mini, I have taken many falls on ropes down to 9mm with no damage whatsoever. If you are really concerned use a Stratos or SuperSafe. I think this is a very safe form of rockclimbing if you are experienced. Enjoy!
Brian

climber
Cali
Apr 4, 2008 - 01:35am PT
I've been using double minis for the past couple of months. Works like a dream. Connect both to the belay loop and keep the top one elevated by girth-hitching shock cord to the mini and wearing it as a shoulder sling--eliminates even that little six inch fall by insuring the upper mini is already in the 'loaded' position. No chest harness this way. A bit of a pain to re-rig at the top for descent, though I am getting quicker. The climbing itself is effortless--next best thing to free soloing, and considerably safer when pushing one's limits.

Brian
quartziteflight

climber
Apr 4, 2008 - 10:05am PT
I can't remember this dudes name, but I met him at NRG. He used a protraxion and loved it. He said he used a couple other devices and likes the P-traxion the best.
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Apr 4, 2008 - 10:35am PT
BTW, solo-TRed James Brown, Clean and Jerk, Wangerbanger, O'Kelly's Crack, and Course and Buggy two days ago. What a gas! Gorgeous weather, and I walk right up to these five star megaclassics in the heart of Joshua Tree to find...noone there. I fully owned the place. WTF? But awesome...
k trout

Social climber
Golden, Colorado
Aug 17, 2008 - 11:26am PT
I had a short conversation about TR soloing with the man who put up the hardest route in Toulumne*. His beta was to use two minitraxions and a chest harness.

*according to SuperTopo, 2003 edition.

Thank you all for sharing your results!
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Aug 17, 2008 - 03:02pm PT
Microcender or rescucender are the best devices for TR'ing, period.
Their simplicity and ease that they travels the rope along with their assured instant backward travel catch make them the best devices for this task.



CF

climber
Aug 17, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
Here is a popular "Yosemite" setup. Since the mini is up high, when you fall there is not as much dynamic load on it. I have taken some good rippers on this setup with no damage to rope. Notice the crossbar on the locker, this prevents cross loading.

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Aug 17, 2008 - 03:46pm PT
^^
Shouldn't be much force (load) on any top rope fall.
WBraun

climber
Aug 27, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
Dingus

That's Kauks setup in the above photo at the base of the meatgrinder.
tenesmus

Trad climber
slc
Aug 27, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
indianclimber is really pretty.

oh this is a climbing topic?
tom Slater

Trad climber
CA
Aug 27, 2008 - 11:45pm PT
Hey man! How ya been!?

YES this set up is awesome! Doug Englekirk turned me on to it. He uses it in the valley all the time. I've used it and it's really rad and light weight!

Go for it!

Tom
Linc

Boulder climber
Hemet, CA
Nov 12, 2008 - 10:09am PT
CF,

1. I already have a Pro traxion, but not a mini. What would happen if I bought a mini, then set up the pro on the bottom, mini on top--or vice versa?

Would that be the same effect as two minis? I'd rather buy one than two if it's all the same.

2. Great photo. Nothing like seeing the setup, shown very clearly. What are you using specifically for the chest harness setup?
imnotclever

climber
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:32am PT
With the 2 minis, shouldn't you try to get your set up to have the bottom mini being the one that engages and the upper one being the back up?

It looks like CF's doesn't do that. So the back up is just for the case where the upper one doesn't engage or, I suppose, crossloading and breaking the upper biner.

If the upper one rips the sheath or breaks the rope, the lower one does no good as a backup.

Am I right?

IndianClimber what catches you first on your modified rig? Is the croll enough distance to get the lower one to catch first?


{edit]

re-looked at IC's pict, it's about the same. The weight is on the upper croll and the micro is hanging loose.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
Nov 12, 2008 - 11:40am PT
Linc, I use one mini and one pro. Mini as the main clipped into the belay loop and rigged with a girth hitched loop of shock cord through the center hole and worn over the shoulder bandolier style to hold it upright (shorter falls, less slack/dynamic loading) and the pro as a backup below it clipped to a 4" sling girthed through the belay loop.

Two minis would be better, but I already owned a pro and didn't want to spend the extra. It works fine.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
I used a pro this summer and it worked great. Just bulkier tjan the mini, and you have to use a second locker on it. It is easier to switch out of it to rap at the top than the mini as well.
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Nov 12, 2008 - 12:29pm PT
Do you have a photo of your settup, Elcapinyoazz? Is it kinda like the redshirt photo above but with a pro on the botttom?

I used to use a microcender all the time, until it was liberated.

Now I use a single Mini-t but always looking for refinements.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
Nov 12, 2008 - 12:44pm PT
Jay, I can't see most linked photos at work, our net-nanny app blocks most of them, and don't have a pic here, maybe at home.

The set up is straightforward though and basically like the Kauk setup that I believe is posted in this thread somewhere (the red shirt one you mention, I think) except substituting the loop of shock cord for the improv chest harness deal and a pro as the lower one instead of a mini.

I got a 2ft section of medium wt shock cord from Russ and tied it into loop. You'll want to tie the loop at such a length that it just goes into tension when you're slightly hunched over. Put the mini on the rope and clip into belay loop as normal, then girth the shockcord through the big center hole on the mini. Girth the 4" sewn sling to the belay loop below the biner the mini is on, put the backup protraxion on the rope and clip it into the sewn sling. Shock cord goes over one shoulder and you're set.

The backup then hangs low enough that it doesn't bang you in the 'nads, and the main is held close to the chest with virtually no slack in the system and doesn't flop around. Feeds super smooth.

The only annoyance is that you have to remove the girth hitched shockcord from the mini to get it off the rope.
grover

Social climber
Canada
Nov 18, 2008 - 07:50pm PT

WOW!!!

Rigged up 2 minis today like the above pic.

Sweet set-up!!!!

Shoulder season has just ended.

Thanks for the pic!

Mark
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Nov 18, 2008 - 08:57pm PT
Eeeesh - teeth.

I have never toprope soloed, so can't comment much. What about devices without teeth, like a Gibbs ascender, or Petzl Microscender and/or Shunt?

Has anyone mentioned the importance of weighting the bottom of the toprope to keep slack out of the system? Man, if you get ANY slack in the system on those static ropes that [it looks to me like] Indianclimber is using, I sure wouldn't want to fall on it with a toothed cam!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 18, 2008 - 09:18pm PT
To address the question, I've used the ProT for TR soloing. It worked, pretty much like the Mini-T, but with a bit more bulk. Feeds nice though.

I found that a backup device gave me peace of mind.

If you do a lot of this, you'll eventually go the route of the two Mini-T's.
Clod

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jan 20, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
I'm new to the forum, and pretty new to climbing. I've tried the two mini-t setup and really like it. But no one on this thread has said much about best practices for unloading the system and lowering off after peeling. All things being equal, let's assume free vertical, so the rock is unavailable. Idears? Any way to rig a grigri into the system, e.g. a grigri with mini-t backup? Thanks!
sac

Trad climber
spuzzum
Jan 20, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
"I've used the Ushba device. I quit when I read about all of the ropes it's pinched in half."

Can you share your info. reguarding this?

I have used this device for 10 yrs.
Only flaw I experienced is the spring in cam lobe failing,(would still arrest fall), ordered part, and repaired.

My system for shorter pitches under 30m, is to fix rope @ middle, ascend using one "side", and clip to intermitant loops tied in other for back up.

Curious why no-one has mentioned Trango "Cinch"




CFetterolf

climber
Jan 20, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
Clod,
Bring a grigri and a 48" sling with you. If you come off of something steep and can't reach the rock hook up the grigri below your rig. Use your sling to make a footloop (prussic above rig.) Unlock mini-trax biner, step up, and unhook the mini from your harness. DON'T just unlock the cam on the mini cause if it's still attached to your harness it'll cam against the top of the grigri causing the grigri's locking mech to fail to engage (did this once myself trying to be lazy and got a scare.) Take the mini off of the rope and rap.

Anyone not sure about switching modes to lower off probably, no, definitely shouldn't be rope soloing! You will be alone after all.

I use one minitrax. It pushes a loosely tied prussic above. It seems like a good back-up with no real weight added and almost no drag added.
NotIt

Trad climber
LA westside
May 5, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
Who sells the cross-loading widget featured in the Kauk picture?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
May 5, 2009 - 06:00pm PT
DMM Belay Master carabiner. There may be others on the market too.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jun 29, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
Great info for TR'ing for solo TR'ing!
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
refined my system a bit. Protrax on the belay loop. Use a loop of shock cord over the shoulder to keep it upright, no slack.

I back up with a ropeman clipped to a 12" sling that trails along below.

As mentioned, you have to weight the bottom end of the rope. Works great. Maybe not as plush as two minis, but I already had the pro and the ropeman.
Double D

climber
Jun 30, 2009 - 12:03am PT
I'm sorta cracking up as I read this because basically there's a bunch of devises that can be used together. I've rigged a mini with a jumar, shock-cord to chest sling and it works great. When I looked at all of the ratings, both were rated around 1500 lbs. Two mini's would be way more compact but like every one else...I already had the jug.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jun 30, 2009 - 12:21am PT
not clear on this...Seems like most of you are set up to weight the top device first and as mentioned upstream, if the top device chops the rope you're done. How is the lower device a backup?
blacksun

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, California
Jun 30, 2009 - 01:07am PT
"not clear on this...Seems like most of you are set up to weight the top device first and as mentioned upstream, if the top device chops the rope you're done. How is the lower device a backup? "

Hmmm that's a good question. But what's more likely to happen, a chop or a slip? Or maybe a sheath rip that allow the top device to slip.

I've wondered about using "X" (Mini Trax whatever etc) device and trailing it with some sort of thing like the small end of a figure 8 belay plate. I haven't seen one but, this mythical device would have a full strength attachment to clip into and at the end would be a simple circle, rounded and non abrasive and just larger than the diameter of a rope. Tie your backup knots whenever you please and if your ascender fails, you slide to the highest knot, which just jams in the mythical device.

So yeah, your top acender is either going to cut the rope or slide, and if it slides, this would be a lightweight simple backup solution. Anyone heard of such a thing? You Could do it with the small end of a figure8 plate, but it would be much better to have a smaller "O".
Brock

Trad climber
RENO, NV
Jun 30, 2009 - 01:09am PT
I use a very similar setup to the above photos. I set up two runners across my chest, forming an X, and I attach a piece of thin elastic cord (purchased at REI) to the X and to the middle of my mini traxion. The elastic just keeps the minitraxion flowing upward smoothly as you climb and nothing more.

I also only use one minitraxion attached to my harness and below that a Tibloc. I use oval locking carabiners w/ small pieces of elastic tied to either side of the minitraxion to keep the mini from cross loading (which it will do easily with a D or pear shaped carabiner.

As far as concern w/ teeth on my sheeth? Well hell, been jugging up many a wall and never had an issue w/ my sheaths. Because the mini traxion device is right there at you, there really is no significant extra force put upon the rope, meaning I never jump/fall onto my rope.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 01:43am PT
Wade, not really worried about chopping the rope. With the elastic cord, falls onto the rope are not severe.

I have used just the pro with no backup a few times. I use the backup for peace of mind if for whatever reason the pro doesn't lock up.

Seen lotsa guys who just use one mini.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jun 30, 2009 - 02:51am PT
Werner said: "I use a single mini-traxion for years now.

But don't listen to me, WTF do I know ..... "




How many times have you taken a pretty solid FALL on it though? (and really when was the last time you fell on anything?) I bought a mini traxion but the teeth just scare me. I'm 190 lbs and a total puss. I finally threw down for a Cinch and am feeling much more comfortable with it.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jun 30, 2009 - 03:14am PT
A severe, off-axis, sideways loading of the Pro-T can force the rope between the pulley and the side plate. I had this happen when hauling a big, huge, fat pig (heavier than you are, I guarantee it) and it was a real bitch to unlock the jam.

For TR soloing, this sort of situation is probably never going to occur, but I thought I'd mention it, for the sake of a complete record of Pro-T user feedback.

Again, the haul bag was very heavy, and was being hauled up a traversing pitch, with another climber counter-weighting it from the lower belay. So, there was an unusual combination of bi-directional forces on the device.
rockermike

Mountain climber
Aug 8, 2009 - 02:23am PT
Indian Climber; you still around?

I like your set up with microscender and croll. How's it working at this point? Still your go-to rig?

And re; Blacks figure 8 with small hole as backup idea - I actually have a very old stich plate with two slots. I think it might work for your purpose. Interesting idea. May give it a shot.
Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member
Aug 12, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
I lost my mini traxion (nooooo!) but I noticed on the Petzl site you can also use an Ascender. So I have been using the set up shown in this photo and find it works even smoother than the mini traxion. Nowhere on the Petzl site could i find a recommendation to use two mini traxions or two ascenders or two of any of their self-belaying devices. Are there instances where someone ass was saved because they had two devices instead of 1??

the below image is from the Petzl web site

Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 12, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
I'm liking it. but it also appears to say don't use a rope over 10 mil with ascenders for self belay?
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 12, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
so then the "greater then" symbol is saying use a rope over 10 mil, that would make sense. Gotcha.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
one person is already laying down under six feet of dirt plus three other big wall climbers almost died while using pro traxion during their big wall climb.

think twice before using that pro-T device for solo TR.
rockermike

Mountain climber
Aug 12, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
Majid, I don't get it. What is it about the Protrax that fails? Or were these user error accidents.

As to the minitrax, anyone think you could use a minitrax to create an adjustable daisy, similar to Kate's Ushba rig? I love multi functional stuff.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area
Aug 12, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
rockermike

Somehow the Pro-T has very tight clearness between the moving plate (market in red)and the shaft that holds the pulley. A proper and most likely a tight biner must be used to keep the plate from sliding backward. if you do not use a big fat biner in the lower hole, the plate will move causing the load on the pulley to bend the plate on the other side allowing the cam not to become engage with the rope.

In Zion, a climber died when the plate moved backward causing him to fall on a loaded line while jugging. At least three other climber fell short distance in Yosemite due to similar problem since jan 2009.

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'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 13, 2009 - 12:05am PT
So, what part of this statement do yous guys knott understand:


"The Pro-Trax is a colossal piece of junk."

It is poorly designed and engineered, inefficient in its hauling capacity, and known to fail under heavy load. It's bad enough to trust your pig to this POS, but your life?

Were you born stupid, or do you just look that way?

Incidentally, half of the people who use this piece of sh|t don't even know that you *have* to put a carabiner through the second hole, too!

Petzl oughta get their ass sued over this thing. I hope they do. They usually make really good stuff, except this thing. Geeeeeeez.........
Rob_James

Ice climber
Aoraki/Mt. Cook Village, New Zealand
Aug 13, 2009 - 03:23am PT
The Petzl diagram Chris McNamara offers is the highest standard of safety for this system when using a dynamic top-rope.

You can substitute his Petzl Ascender diagram for your pro-traxion - clip the device directly to your harness via a large locker. Additionally though, a second biner/soliddly tied bit of cord needs to fit the device so that the 'plate' cannot swing open. Fiddling around, you'll understand.

"Indianclimbers" rigging is ill-thought, refer to Chris's Petzl diagram as to why. 'Backing-up' with two traxion or ascending devices is suspect. Use knots instead.

If you are using a chest harness/lanyard to align so the device ascends smoother, ensure that the chest harness is not load bearing in the event of a fall (unless it is a properly rated/designed/tested chest harness - no in-situs!)

Discipline, remember to back things up every 10 metres or so with a solid knot in the rope below you. And recall, smooth technique and movement - no big dynos, barndoor swings or flying overhangs.

It's a fun and reliable way to focus on footwork and controlled breathing. But it's not a true substitute for a real belay, so please don't climb (above others especially) with the illusion that it is - tone down your effort.

Keep warm, but stay cool.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 13, 2009 - 11:23am PT
There is at least one thread here on McTopo where the pros show you how to properly toprope self-belay using a couple Mini-Traxions. Look it up, and toss your Pro-Trax.
okie

Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
Aug 13, 2009 - 11:45am PT
All these hands-free self belaying methods are truly awesome! The basic ascender and the mini traxion work great for tr, a big improvement over manually pulling in slack with each move like with the Soloist which is now definitely obsolete. Whatever system you use for solo tr, climb up a few feet and give it a good test. I do this every time. This reassures me and after that I can almost forget about the rope entirely and climb free!
As for leading, I have done some free climbs on loops of slack (the knot method). This does work well on routes well within your ability that have convenient rests where you can do the rope work. I've tried the Silent Partner but haven't gotten used to it. It seems you have to tie off at least every other piece of pro otherwise the rope weight cinches the clove tight on the device and then you're done. In the middle of the crux this is a revolting developement.
Obviously you need bombproof anchors to do any of this stuff and falling while on lead is forbidden!
And something else: belay anchors need to be multi-directional for leading, as well as anything you tie off!
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno
Aug 13, 2009 - 11:57am PT
We've all been saying the ProTrax is a piece of sh#t for a long time here. There's no way you researched this topic and didn't come across those comments. Your choice, dude.

I use mini traxions. I also used the exact same system as Indian Climber for quite a while. Or pretty close to it, anyway. A Petzl Basic and a MicroScender. That setup also worked very well.

CMac - Diggin the diagram. I forgot my solo rig one day and tried using regular ascenders. I never thought to clip the ascender as in your diagram. I clipped from the bottom, with the top clipped into my slings. Sucked major ass! hahahaha Ended up just soloing moderates that day. Was SO frustrated. hahaha
Indianclimber

Trad climber
Lost Wages
Aug 13, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
Rockermike,I am still using the Croll and microcender setup
Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 13, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
Since I'm here (because my climbing plans for today just fell apart an hour ago and now it's too hot to join Chim in Woodfords, aughh!) I'll pipe in...

I toprope solo with ONE ascender (both basic and ascension) exactly like Petzl says... as C Mac photo alluded to also. Works great. Always has. No mini-traxion. (Though wouldn't mind finding one as booty.) I also feed rope through chest sling biner to keep it organized, in a known place.

The only time I use two ascenders (the second for redundancy) is when I don't tie backup knots (rare so far in my experience) because terrain circumstances would make them cumbersome. Otherwise a backup knot always... a backup knot (sometimes 30 feet like someone said, sometimes every ten feet, yeah, because I'm a aging wuss??) is plenty redundant AS LONG AS... as in C Mac Petzy drawing... rope containment locking biner is used to contain the rope.

To be clear, I've never TR soloed with just one ascender and no backup knot.

Happy solo!

Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member
Aug 13, 2009 - 03:23pm PT
Footloose, how do you tie the back up knot? Do you tie a figure 8 on a bite and clip it to your belay loop on your harness? Do you know if that is recommended by the manufacturer of any self belay devices/ascenders (I dont remember seeing a back up know recommended on the Petzl site but i could have missed it)
Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 13, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
Chris- Just an overhand on a bite even (it seems to provide plenty of profile for my 10.2, also for my safety sense). And I don't clip in, just let the rope alone. Yeah, it's interesting mnfr doesn't indicate a backup knot as part of the entire system. I don't know, personally, I'm not THAT confident in pin axle rivets and rope biting capability to preclude the extra measure. But for me, safety is all about the rope containment locking biner containing the rope and the backup knot. And of course the toprope anchor!

scotty vincik

climber
up north, these days
Aug 13, 2009 - 10:49pm PT
I've broken 2 mini traxions and 1 pro traxion hauling. All were bent side plates, on the mini because it doesn't lock in place, and on the pro because it didn't get locked in place. And 1 wall hauler, BTW. Many weight!! I self belay top rope on the Petzl ascender like Chris Mac posted. Bitchin' It will push a 5mm prussik if you like as well. Feeds fine. Camming against a pulley, which relies on alignment of an axle for proper engagement, when the side plates are free floating by design? Sketchy.
Scotty
scotty vincik

climber
up north, these days
Aug 13, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
I've also had to jug 7mm cord free hanging when we bailed off a wall and tied everything together to hit the ground. We had to go back up and get our stuff, so... We tested it by clipping the jug one inch from the frayed end of some 7mm, and bounced it with and aider until we thought the wall tent was going to come down. It bit fine, so I don't worry about ropes a little less than 10mm.
Scotty
tokyo bill

Social climber
tokyo
Aug 13, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
With apologies if this is well known to everyone, I'd like to bump a question from up thread:

sac posted:



"I've used the Ushba device. I quit when I read about all of the ropes it's pinched in half."

Can you share your info. reguarding this?

I have used this device for 10 yrs.
Only flaw I experienced is the spring in cam lobe failing,(would still arrest fall), ordered part, and repaired.

My system for shorter pitches under 30m, is to fix rope @ middle, ascend using one "side", and clip to intermitant loops tied in other for back up.



I use the same rig with an Ushba and have done for quite some time. Can anyone provide more info. on the problems with the Ushba? Maybe a link to failure reports or something?

Thanks.
tokyo bill

Social climber
tokyo
Aug 17, 2009 - 03:34am PT
Bump. Nefarius, are you there? If not, anyone know what he was referring to with regard to Ushba basics cutting ropes?

I found some peripheral references at this link, but the substance of the link seems to refute the idea of the Ushba cutting ropes when used for TR solo:

http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/lofiversion/index.php?t333.html

Oooh, edited to add, I think I found the original report that started all the Ushba rope-cutting concern:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2001/crr01364.pdf

Now I just have to read it. Carry on.
tokyo bill

Social climber
tokyo
Aug 17, 2009 - 06:28am PT
Well, I feel like I'm playing tennis with myself, but here's the relevant stuff from that report, so far as I can tell.

First, description of the "Dynamic performance" test that they used (p. 40):

"Peak impact force and slippage with a fall factor 2 drop with a 100 kg mass.
...
Perhaps the most relevant test, this test investigates the energy absorbing abilities of the devices in a worst-case scenario: a fall factor 2 with an inelastic lanyard."

And then their comment in the Ushba's performance (p. 43):

"The Ushba 'Stop-Lock' fared very badly in the dynamic tests. Only two devices were available for the dynamic tests and both of these cut the rope completely, without any slippage, at a peak force of 5.5 kN. The devices were too distorted and damaged to test again. This would appear to be a serious design fault and the Stop-Lock cannot be recommended for use as a back-up device. No further tests were carried out."

My interpretation is that they had two Ushbas. They subjected both of them to a dynamic test in which they did fall factor 2 drops with 100 kg weights by attaching the device to a rope, and a 100kg weight to the device via a 1 meter long static lanyard. In other words, 100kg weights were dropped the two meter length of the lanyard, and then hit the rope. The Ushbas cut the rope and got trashed, with maximum forces recorded before cutting of 5.5 kN. Having trashed the available devices, they did no further testing.

I'd be interested in other opinions, but my reaction is that this test isn't a particularly accurate simulation of TR solo use. It actually sounds more like a test for a lead solo device. It gives added emphasis to the need to keep slack out of the system in a TR solo rig; but presumably folks who TR solo already know this.

Could the Ushba have come away with an inaccurate reputation for general rope cutting due to imprecise reading of this report?

Thoughts from anyone?
Rankin

climber
North Carolina
Sep 30, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
Bump for one of the coolest threads on the Taco. I've been using a Mini Traxion as shown in the photo of Kauk's set-up for the last couple of days. Took me a couple runs to dial it in and get comfortable with it.
Wow, what a game changer! Thanks to Chris Mac for providing such a wealth of info on the Taco.
I'm only using one Mini right now, and I don't see a need for another one, but I would also be curious if anyone has experienced any Mini Traxion slippage or failure in the top-rope set-up shown here. Also, I found that I needed to weight the bottom of the rope to get the device to run smoothly. I just clipped my shoes to the rope, which seemed to be more than enough weight.
mongrel

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Sep 30, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
Whoa, Majid_S, let's keep the record straight, the info that appeared on this site, specifically including accident analysis by the Zion SAR or rangers or whoever is the appropriate authority, was that the accident resulted from shock-loading of the Pro, the climber having been jugging on a rope threaded through the Pro and loaded by the haul bag. You can search for the whole thread and get all the details. The Pro-trax may or may not be a crummy device; who knows more about hauling than PTPP? The point of this post is not whether it's good or not, but that, regardless of the quality of the gear, if you do stupid or unsafe scheisse, you will very likely end up dead in a hurry. Be smart and use things right and they won't break and you won't die from a bonehead accident (just maybe another kind - but much lower frequency of those).
adkeditor

Trad climber
Saranac Lake, NY
Aug 15, 2011 - 06:59pm PT
Reviving an old thread ... I am interested in solo top-roping and have been reading threads on various sites. A lot of people recommend Petzl's Mini Traxion, but Petzl now recommends against using it for this purpose. Instead it recommends using an Ascension and Basic for single strand top ropes and the Ascension and Microcender for dual strands. Has this changed people's opinions of the Mini Traxion?

The following is from Petzl's website:

"Use of the MINI TRAXION pulley: Warning:Petzl has studied the current usage of the MINI TRAXION as a self-belay device on a fixed rope. Serious accidents and many handling errors have been reported.

"The risk of using the device with the cam held open is significant, as well as the possibility of accidental opening of the cam when climbing.
Consequently, Petzl no longer authorizes the use of the MINI TRAXION for self-belay, even when combined with a backup."
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Aug 15, 2011 - 07:35pm PT

Been using this rig for 15 yrs.
Never failed.
Very little friction on 10.5mm.
Heard they stopped making them, prob some out there.
An important function for me is to "release" the device after load.Or rapping.
This one simple, un-wieght slightly, rotate device, and hold, and lower, w/ rap device, kinda like a prussic, but easier, more simple.
Not so easy w/ mini-tax imo.
cheers.
A.Durie.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Aug 15, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
I guess I'm the only person using a soloist, and have been for over a bit over 20 years. Yes, it is a specialized piece of gear and not cheap, but considering the alternative of using a device not really designed for the application?

The soloist is super smooth for top roping, I've used it with 10, 10.5 and 11mm ropes. You should coil your slack rope so that it hangs to provide a little bit of weight and it'll self feed easy peasy.


Simple, lots of surface area to grab the rope, no teeth on the cam.
steelmnkey

climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Aug 15, 2011 - 08:08pm PT

Been using this for a little over 20 years. Never failed.
Always liked it because of the foolproof design and machined rope interface.
Once you have it locked on the rope properly, it's there to stay.
I've climbed solo on a Soloist, Silent Partner, Microscender, Mini Traxion, and Gri Gri at one time or another. All have pluses and minuses.

Truth be told, (IMO, of course) just about any of these devices are okay to use as long as you climb conservatively and follow basic survival rules. People always seem to want a device that is guaranteed to catch them if they're huckin' mo's 1000 feet up the side of El Cap and if you're doing that sort of stuff, you're way better off having someone that cares about you hangin' on to the other end of the line. Doing crazy sh*t out there while solo climbing might be extreeeeeme and all, but it's not a good way to stack the odds in your favor. Obviously not advice for the vets, but some thoughts for the nOObs looking for info.

T_Paul - are you using the Soloist for TRing?
The Mayor

Social climber
Billings, Montana USA
Aug 15, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
I've been using the Soloist for TR'ing 20 plus years and literally thousands of falls. No complaints.
mctwisted

Social climber
superslacker city
Aug 16, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
this is a setup like the one posted earlier with the pics only with the microsender on top and basic ascender on bottom. so in the event of a small fall there would be less trauma on the rope (as the micro cam is more gentle than the toothed ascenders).
i bought the micro years ago for rigging work because we had used them to pull large loads without damaging the rope (not as good as prussik, which is used by yosar for raisings on el cap).
i tried most of the mentioned setups and feel most comfortable with this one, and i think all of the mentioned double devise setups are good as long as there is no slack developed! which requires a shoulder sling or chest harness to keep the upper devise up high so if you come off you don`t take a 6" fall, and also a weight on the bottom of the line to outweigh the friction of the devises down low on the climb. i have seen tractioners take these little falls at the cookie cliff, and it seems brutal on the rope. as mentioned in other posts keep cool and in control, and take in extra slack if your going to come off( this is best done by pulling on the rope above you and sucking it through the devise, rather than below as it would be if you were to "take" a leader.
you will probably notice this micro has seen alot of use and the cable has been replaced with weed whacker cord, which i prefer to the cable (i think the arborists came up with that one) works good and provides more spring tension. and as mentioned in other posts keep any loose shirts or chalk bag straps or cords away from system so there is no unforeseen complication that threatens your saftey
steelmnkey

climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Aug 16, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
Never liked the way it looked like the rope had to do a coil around the Soloist to be aligned right. Seemed like it would really mess with the smooth feed of the device. Maybe I better take another look.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Aug 16, 2011 - 03:32pm PT
Just coil the slack at the base of the climb so that it hangs and the soloist will feed very smoothly. I used to use it to do laps on favorite routes and I never had issues with it feeding.

One other plus of the soloist. Say you're doing a slightly overhanging climb, you peal or burn off and find yourself free hanging. With the soloist you just grab the slack end of the rope, lean back until it starts to free itself and rap to the base of the climb. If you're using an ascender or double ascender you're going to have to rig up a rap device and remove the ascenders to get down, or pull out the aiders and jug to the top.
The Mayor

Social climber
Billings, Montana USA
Aug 16, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
You can do that on vertical rock also, a good way to work moves or sections.
pFranzen

Boulder climber
Portland, OR
Aug 16, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
Could someone re-post the picture of the Kauk setup? The original in dingus' post is broken.
mikeyschaefer

climber
Yosemite
Aug 16, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
I've used the pro-trax and mini-trax for TR soloing since they came out. If I was to guess how many feet I've climbed with them I'd say close to 75k and hundreds of days of use. And as far as falling goes on them I can't even count. I've taken repeated falls on the exact same section of rope over and over and over while working projects or FA's. Never once have I seen ANY damage done to the sheath. Not a bit. I generally use a medium stretch static these days (%3 or so) but have also used dynamic but don't like them nearly as much. It seams like most people I know in Yosemite choose to rig some sort of chest harness but I've tried using them but I find it gets in the way if you are really working moves at your limit. I guess my comfort level is high enough that I don't mind taking the additional 6" fall on them.

I always use two of them but rig the lower one on a different tied belay loop that is longer than the factory harness belay loop. This keeps the device slightly apart when climbing and when falling on them.
okie

Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
Aug 16, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
I wonder how strong that little axle pin is on the pulley wheel of the minitrax? Man, if that thing broke and you were only using one...
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Aug 16, 2011 - 09:51pm PT
Great thread and important topic as this technique is gaining popularity.
I don't climb as much these days much less solo top rope.
Did some solo big walls in the old days with some rigs that horrify me now.
Last couple outings were with a Soloist and it seemed to work well and even held a couple gnarly falls.
I do use a variety of rope grabs in my rope access and rigging work and we're still looking for the best device.

At the risk of preaching to the choir, here's a few thoughts.

Most rope grabs damage the rope at some point and it's a function of impact force. There's anecdotal and empirical evidence that toothed ascenders and Ushbas are the worst and Rescuscenders and Microscenders not as bad. Petzl has done a bunch of testing as has Kirk Mauthner at Rigging for Rescue.
We've been using the ANSI approved DMM Buddy recently and it seems to work well trailing on back up ropes both ascending and descending.
We also run the precaution of attaching to it with a short Petzl shock pack.
I wonder if anyone's trying it for solo toproping?

As a general rule, I'd be concerned about two things solo top roping;

1) Impact force on the device (and the climber!) and resultant rope damage (which could be mitigated with a shock pack).

2) Integrity of the connecting hardware and prevention of cross loading and roll out.

I like the idea of a second device for redundancy and wonder if that might be as simple as pushing a separately attached prusik upstream of the primary rope grab? Sounds like some are doing this?

In any event, it's incumbent on the user to do their homework, recognize the risks and engineer a system that works best for them. There's lots of good information available and this thread is a good start.

Best,

PB
Abe Froman

Trad climber
NY, NY
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:55am PT
I've looked through several of these threads about different devices. I think I've settled on the Microcender. Is anybody out there using a Klemheist as a backup instead of a prussik (I believe the Klemheist would slide up the line more easily) or a second device? Thanks.
HuecoRat

Trad climber
NJ
Sep 19, 2011 - 08:09am PT
Over the years (30 of them) I have used:


Gibbs Ascender

PROS
Easy to use
Locks off instantly
(with spring attached)
Can be used for leading
Easy to load/unload
CONS
Does not feed easily (Rope must be weighted below)
Eye is not intended for shock-loading



Mini Traxion

PROS
Easy to use
Stronger than Gibbs
Feeds smoothly!
Easy to load/unload
CONS
Cam can lock open (just watch to be sure)

Soloist (Wren Industries)

PROS
Strong! Specifically designed for this
Zero rope damage
Great for leading
CONS
Slow to feed at the start
Requires chest harness


So, after years of rope soloing, for solo TR I go with the Mini Traxion. For solo leading I go with the Soloist.
ClimbingOn

Trad climber
NY
Nov 27, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
moosedrool, the problem with the cinch is that it requires a backward fall (away from the rope) to properly engage. If you fall straight down, the camming action may not engage. This has occurred in testing, and is disturbing when thinking about using it to TR solo. Try it on a fixed rope to see what I mean. The mini traxion does not suffer from this problem. If you are intent on continuing to use the cinch for this application, make certain you continue to use a backup prussic.
ramonjuan

climber
Nov 27, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
I use two mini's off the belay loop. On the top one I used a dremel to cut out the part of the frame that locks the cam open and use a auto locking dmm oval. This is connected to two crossed over the soulder slings with some accessory cord. On the bottom one I clip it to the belay loop as well as the main loop of a sterling chain reactor using a regular screw gate dmm oval. I fall on this set up all the time and have never had a problem. I'd post a pic of the dremel work but I haven't figured out how to do it from my iPhone yet.

A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Dec 3, 2011 - 12:34am PT
@ Gunkie... hey, are you the guy that down climbs to the top of Laurel and then solo TR with the gibbs ascender? if so, I think I have seen you there a bunch of times

scott
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