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Messages 2821 - 2840 of total 2860 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jan 11, 2014 - 11:41am PT
I wanna be able to shoot bolts in from my motel rooms private veranda!
overwatch

climber
Jan 11, 2014 - 11:47am PT
Clever and hilarious!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 11, 2014 - 11:50am PT
Has anyone actually gone up and repeated this thing? Wonder what the verdict is per those having the actual experience of being up there and sending as opposed to the rest of us down here milling around the base.

JL
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Jan 11, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
Largo, you are not reading the thread. Check out Salamanizer's posts just above. He has been to the top of Pitch #13, the end of the arch and the trad climbing, where the top-down bolting begins and the tiny bit of A0 is located.
The Chief

climber
From the Land of the Mongols
Jan 11, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
John,

I propose the following question:


Was it, the entire established line, actually "Free Climbed" on a single push from start to finish, when "established"?


Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Jan 11, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
They said that about "Bachar Yerian" originally before anyone ever tried it.

I know Werner, and I'm on board with that perspective. The difference is, that's the Bachar Yerian and this routes section in question is an overhanging, impenetrable swath of smooth glacial polish, which was tried. It's the end of the road up there, no "maybe" about it. I mean, they rap bolted it. If there was a way, they'd have found it. I think what they were trying to do was avoid the bolt ladder at all costs. It didn't pan out, so they finished the rest of the route in a more convenient style since they were already down there.

Copout, yes! Modern atrocity, no! Likely style to be repeated on the South Face, I doubt it.
katiebird

climber
yosemite
Jan 11, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
Being curious about this route myself, Ben Ditto and I climbed our way up to the 15th pitch in a day. We freed all of the dihedral, which is some of the best climbing in the Valley, managed to just about free the 14th pitch and were faced with a very blank 15th pitch. Both pitches are for sure freeable but will go most likely at hard 5.13 possibly even 5.14. A lot of time and an open mind are required to do so however.
tbailey

Trad climber
canoga park
Jan 11, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
Everybody needs to " Shut up and climb "
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 11, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
Good post Katie.

What kind of an "open mind" are you speaking of?
WBraun

climber
Jan 11, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
What kind of an "open mind" are you speaking of?


She's saying just climb the route and don't let all the bolting controversy get in the way.

It' an awesome location and once you're there all this bullsh!t here starts to fall away.

It's how most people actually climb these days.

Except you supertopo type people ?????
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 11, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
I am with those who say that rap bolting Half Dome was unnecessary.

The argument that the route couldn't be finished ground-up is weak. Maybe it wasn't meant to be? We can't always get what we want.

Andrzej
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jan 11, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
I just want to thank everyone for sharing their very important opinions.
scuffy b

climber
heading slowly NNW
Jan 13, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
Wow,

Thanks for the report, Katie.
What a day!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 13, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
Food for thought....

Every free route on El Cap has had bolts added, and most of them were placed on rap either from the top or from a belay anchor.

Nobody bitches about the bolts on El Cap.

Basically all stance drilled routes are slab routes. You take the stances that mother nature gives you. We were all into death routes in the 80's. Nobody is into death routes now.

There are probably a good dozen or so free routes on HD that could be discovered on that wall. The only way to stitch the line together is on rap, top down.

I talked to Doug and he told me that he never saw a power drill while he was helping out, so stop the slander on that.

We have a crag in Oklahoma that is pretty much a gigantic slab. The routes were all put in ground up, and many of them have jingus runouts. Almost nobody climbs them. The guy who did most of the FA's consented to retro-bolting a few routes, and now those are the only routes people do. Climbing has just changed. Few people look at it as worth their life to try something. It isn't that the new climbers aren't capable; they are better than we were. They just don't understand why on Earth there are fifty foot runouts on 5.10 moves. These people can climb circles around my best moment ever, but I was brought up on those runouts and didn't know any better.

I've changed my opinion of this route. After the initial argument, we have been reading all about Tommy Caldwell's free routes on El Cap, and those of the Huber Brothers. The way Tommy figured out where the free line is on the Dawn Wall was by swinging all over the place and finding holds where the route could go. Then he put in bolts for pro (although he firmly did NOT put bolts on aid routes other than putting a fatty in a rivet hole).

It is really the only way to go about it now. We have been waiting 20 years or more for the next Southern Belle, and nobody has found one. There is a shitload of rock back there, and routes WILL be put in from the top down. Trying them ground up will lead to dead ends, etc. The only practical way is to scout the line on rappel, swinging around and scouting out a line that will go. No way could you do this ground up.

Geez, I remember doing the Nose the year after the FFA, and the Changing Corners pitch sprouted shiny new 3/8" bolts. Even the last pitch had every single one of Harding's bolts replaced. Yep, there were 3/8" bolts every 4 or 5 feet.

Coz and Kurt Smith did the Muir ground up, Skinner and Piana did the Salathe ground up. As far as I know, all of the others were scouted top down. If Growing Up were on El Cap, nobody would care.
sac

Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
Jan 13, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
Some good input, imo. Base. Good to hear different opinions/ perspectives on the subject.
Pretty "sweeping" comments though.

Climbing has just changed. Few people look at it as worth their life to try something. It isn't that the new climbers aren't capable; they are better than we were. They just don't understand why on Earth there are fifty foot runouts on 5.10 moves. These people can climb circles around my best moment ever, but I was brought up on those runouts and didn't know any better.

I don't agree. Alot of climbers out there (here) still willing to risk for reward. Respecting the line. Keeping it real yo.







cultureshock

Trad climber
Mountain View
Jan 13, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
Being curious about this route myself, Ben Ditto and I climbed our way up to the 15th pitch in a day. We freed all of the dihedral, which is some of the best climbing in the Valley, managed to just about free the 14th pitch and were faced with a very blank 15th pitch. Both pitches are for sure freeable but will go most likely at hard 5.13 possibly even 5.14. A lot of time and an open mind are required to do so however.

Katie,

So you guys freed the tension traverse at the end of the arch? Looks like P13 on the pitch above. Nice work!!

Is the beginning part of P14 A0?

Did you guys bivy at the base or do it Valley to Valley?

Do you think you could pull on gear through the 13a crux in the corner? It looks like the earlier 5.12+ is fairly well bolted and could be french freed.

Just wondering if it would be fun/worthwhile to give the route a go at 5.12a A0

Thanks!
Luke

Another post of the topo:


And a photo!

Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jan 13, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
Trying them ground up will lead to dead ends, etc

This presupposes an outcome. Part of the GU tradition is that the outcome is not predetermined, FWIW.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 13, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
Quite right that there is no enforcement that prevents particular climbing choices of behavior. As food for thought, however, is it workable to universalize the notion that all of climbing's impactful activities (f*#king up the rock in whatever way we select) can be merely personal activities with personal reasons? IMHO, the answer is no. Would I retrobolt the BY? Would I replace all copperheads with bolts? Why not, if we have already damaged the rock, do it up fully, right? There are self regulating ideas, but there is no bible to hand them down from gen to gen. It's not absolute.

Munge, I agree with you entirely. BUT I disagree with the level of criticism the FA party got. For one, Doug Robinson made the FIRST CLEAN ascent of Half Dome. He was one of the fathers of the Clean Revolution. His actions have saved rock. Saving rock is a big part of who he is. I believe IF there was a way to avoid rap bolting the short bolt ladder, they would do it. In my opinion, they took the top down approach for the upper section of the climb primarily to save rock. If they completed the first half of the wall, as they did, and let it stand, there might me another party who would decide to continue over the blank bulge via a much longer bolt ladder into nowhere. By completing the upper portion from the top they might have eliminated over bolting, and maximized possible free climbing (big part of who is Sean Jones as I understand). Not sure if that was their primary reason or not. In any case, if their goal was to put up an amazing climb that has decent protection and very hard free climbing, they have done it. If a figure like DR, considering things he HAS accomplished in his life, thought it was ok to do, it is fine with me.
I love the OP for being opinionated and expressing his views, but I think if he had something negative to say it would be wiser to talk about it with the FA team in person. This subject is way more complex than top down vs ground up and people like DR donít deserve such criticism from a bunch of nobodies who have not done a fraction of things that he has done for the community.
In addition, people who have done a part of this climb stated it is incredible and had nothing negative to say about the way it was put up. Hmmmmm.

We were all into death routes in the 80's. Nobody is into death routes now.

After they watched that Hank Caylor video! LOL It is fantastic. Can't get enough.


Part of the GU tradition is that the outcome is not predetermined, FWIW.

COMPLETE BULLSH#T! On walls if you have enough food/gear the outcome is always a 'success' unless you are a complete noob or the weather comes in. Blank section? Bolt/rivet ladder! Throw in a few hook moves in between, wooooo we have a A3! Crack system peters out? We do a pendulum into another one! No problem. Nailing on walls is hard work, but success is almost always guaranteed. Unless you do something A4-5 where if you blow it, you die. But when was the last time you heard someone getting killed while putting up a A4-5 pitch? People that do, usually know exactly how much they can get away with, and make their own rules. So I think putting up a FA is much easier than repeating someone's climb of high danger/difficulty where you have to work with what you have (not drill more holes etc).
TMayse

climber
Jan 13, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
We have a crag in Oklahoma that is pretty much a gigantic slab. The routes were all put in ground up, and many of them have jingus runouts. Almost nobody climbs them. The guy who did most of the FA's consented to retro-bolting a few routes, and now those are the only routes people do. Climbing has just changed. Few people look at it as worth their life to try something. It isn't that the new climbers aren't capable; they are better than we were. They just don't understand why on Earth there are fifty foot runouts on 5.10 moves. These people can climb circles around my best moment ever, but I was brought up on those runouts and didn't know any better.
Shhhhh.... Don't talk about this place Base... I enjoy having the place to myself...
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 13, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
We are talking about a 2000 foot slab. There are no more crack climbs on HD.

SAC, yes, there are some climbers who aren't intimidated by dangerous routes, but from my experience, not many. I know people who can do 5.12 in their sleep who won't do some of the 1981 runout slab routes here. They just won't do it.

That doesn't mean that they aren't good climbers, it is just that slabs aren't exactly in style, and by their nature, stance drilled routes are almost always on a slab. You have to drop both hands to drill. Stance drilling with a power drill takes no time, in comparison.

Anyway, I see very few people doing routes that all of the mere mortals used to run laps on BITD. I couldn't sniff 5.13 in my dreams, but I've done routes that 5.13 climbers aren't interested in.

It is all about caves now. Super overhanging is the style. The type of climbing that Caldwell and Jorgensen are doing on the Dawn wall is downright freaky. If you have ever done an aid route through that area, they are freeing stuff that was impossible to even nail. Since even vertical rock is now called a slab, not many people know how to climb on those micro edges. I've read that they wear out a pair of shoes in a day, and the weather has to be pretty cold to even attempt it.

What they are doing is proud and amazing. The old runout routes were also proud and amazing. I'm just saying that if people don't get their panties in a bunch, there will be new routes up the south face of HD. I hate to say it, but it is far better to scout it top down in order to find where a route will go. Old farts might not like it, but nobody has retro-bolted Southern Belle and likely never will. It is a proud route. They know that.

It is inconsistent to give the OK for bolts placed top down on El Cap and then throw a fit about it on HD. The times have changed.
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