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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 28, 2008 - 07:47pm PT
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The internet is an amazing place.
Where else can you get, in one place, every generation of Climbing, from the Big guys that show us that nothing is impossible to the gumby lurker who is stopping on the way home from Apple Valley (lol locker) to say a few words.
and then there's Matt. Not sure what to think of that. Hopefully this thread isn't dead yet.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:17pm PT
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"This thread is not a wank-fest."
hahaha... seriously?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:21pm PT
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tonight we're gonna party like it's 1999
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jstan
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:22pm PT
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In order that we might get back on topic..........
One observer on the Long Ago thread complained that a bolt was chopped "without getting a consensus in the community." The asymmetry here is quite striking. Those opposed to this particularly artificial form of resource development have not pointedly called for a consensus as regards any specific bolt. Generally we have said as a policy we should find an alternative to complete freedom in the placing of these. This asymmetry is not suggestive of movement. So where do we find ourselves?
Well, on the flatirons there was a rapid and strong action by the municipality when a tax paying citizen complained about the whine of power equipment and disfigurement due to chalk in a taxpayer funded city park. On ST there was a complaint that this was an over reaction by the citizenry. I have to presume that comment came from someone whose quarterly real estate taxes for Boulder CO were not onerous. Perhaps that person does not realize we are now paying as much each month in taxes as we used to pay for an apartment? There has been an expression that we should just keep going as we are until municipalities are forced to take action. But consider. What is a municipality going to conclude when the citizens not involved in climbing are complaining, and half the people who are involved in climbing are also complaining? I would suggest they will decide the problem is due entirely to a small group of people unwilling to respect rules of any kind in the use of publicly funded parks.
Then the problem comes down to enforcement, which costs more than the municipality can afford to pay. Well, they will find some form of enforcement that is broader, deeper, and less costly.
A question. Is this really where we all want to go? I really don't think so.
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:36pm PT
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Jody,
Scott has a strong opinion which is different from yours. That doesn't make him an egomaniac.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 28, 2008 - 09:37pm PT
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Jody, 'Cozgrovel' is the real deal. I first made his acquaintance decades ago, now. He is passionate about his beliefs and his climbs, and he speaks his mind, even if it's not always to his own benefit. He does not speak up out of self-agrandizement. He speaks up because he feels a certain need, and he can't 'not' do so. If he feels it needs to be said, he will say it.
I don't think it bothers him that much that you or someone else doesn't agree. And I bet he really will have a beer with those guys if the chance offers itself. They may never agree, but they won't come to blows.
On a personal note, I think much of this dialog has been a good discussion of various points of view.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:43pm PT
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So to test the therory I picked up a rock and put it in my pocket.
I took it home.
The rock ran away when I wasn't looking .......
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:53pm PT
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Interesting insight, Coz.
Although, I would be reticent to live life by Mayvilles philosophy, lol!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 28, 2008 - 11:01pm PT
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Coz, Nice Post!
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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Coz,
Just got in from a long day and thought I'd check the site just for the hell of it. Don't have too much time right now as the kids need story time and bed. I did read your last post though and it's very nice.
Sorry to you or anyone for the times I got pissy. I very much love life too and really try not to be an as#@&%e. Sometimes I blow it though just like anyone.
So many people say to me, don't look at super topo. It's just a bunch of pissy old f$cks that don't climb anyway. They're wrong though. I've learned alot from all this and made many new friends from it.
Sooooo many interesting people with so much to say. So many people Soooooo involved in climbing with very important things to say.
Wherever, whenever,.......beers on me. look forward to it.
I'll read more later tonight.
3,000 ? !!!!!!!!
Sean.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:33am PT
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Well, if it took 2000+ posts to get to this, it was worth it.
 an old f*ck
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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Well said, Scott;......I have have the greatest respect for you as a climber and as a friend, and as we get older and hopefully wiser, we can realize that climbing is many things for many people......We climb because we dig it, and we love it.......When we were younger, we took it all so serious;..it was sort of like our religion.....and we were able to accomplish some amazing things;......It's taken many years and lots of climbs and friends to help me get it all into a "healthy" perspective in my life.......you too Coz;....and you are a greater person because of it. Being talented and motivated is awesome.....at the end of the day, we are all just people, having fun, doing our climbs, and trying to figure it all out and keep the ball rolling. You know alot about climbing and people, Scott;......and you have alot to say;....and you didn't get to know so much about climbing from a magazine, a website, a gym, or a book;.......but time on stone..........your last post , I thought , was full of insight , wisdom, and good vibes............(About time you grew up and figured it out......) Good for you! Maybe as we get older, we suck more at climbing, but every now and again, we get some insight....some hint as to what is going on as we stumble through life in our blissful sunset years.......(See ya at next local AARP gathering.....we can talk about social security, medical, and geritol..and those Mo fos who hang dog, rap bolt, put in convience anchors and ..............)....it never ends,...does it?....we are doomed...........
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:46am PT
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Wow, I will finally get a good nights sleep tonight.
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DixieGal
Trad climber
NC
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:52am PT
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In this context it's worth drawing attention to Tony Yaniro's
route called Scirocco, on the East Face of the Sorcerer, in the
Needles, CA. This route (III, 5.12a, see "Fifty Favorite Climbs"
by Mark Kroese for details) was controversial when it was first
put up, because the bolts were drilled from hooks rather than
stances.
"We got a lot of flak", Tony said. "Everyone accused us of
overbolting the route, even though some of them are 20 feet
apart".
The interesting thing is that Tony gave future climbers license
to chop all bolts that they were willing to skip when they
climbed the route. (Twenty years later all bolts were still
there). I've always felt that this offer by the first ascent team
is a fair and sporting offer - climb it, and if you don't use
the bolts, feel free to chop.
In spite of the large mass of threads supporting GU, I tend to
share the same sentiments as Coz - be extremely sparing with
the bolt. Furthermore, I think that an act of desecration like
placing a bolt always needs to be qualified by a statement like
Tony Yaniro's: if you can climb the route without the bolt, feel
free to chop it.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:53am PT
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Jaybro,
I am in the process of earning my teaching credential, and working on a Master of Arts in Teaching through Sierra Nevada College. I've been fulfilling observation hours, but I'm pretty hands-on in the classroom, so I end up team teaching. I love it, but I have to admit that first graders are not my first choice. I'm one of those 5th-8th grade types of guys. I'm awkward and slightly psychotic, so the students and I understand each other, and get along real well.
I can't wait for this semester to be over. One and a half weeks!!! My wife is defending her Masters Thesis in Climatology Wednesday morning. After that, I guess there is nothing left to do, but go send that sick new route we've been hearing so much about up on the South Face of Half Dome.
What grade/subject do you teach?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:36am PT
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Spencer, I am a middle school Special Ed (SMH) teacher. As you mentioned you found, I (in my case a 51yr old climber (generalist minoring in OW)) also have a lot in common with my students. It's good to be with my people! In all seriousness, they really do help me see things in myself I hadn't fully realized till now, assuming I really 'get it' at this time...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:42am PT
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Nice post Coz.
Funny how the dialog goes from inflammatory (and then inflamed reactions) to conciliatory. We must have had pre-2000 stress.
Coz wrote
"I climbed the Southern Belle, because I liked the looks of the South Face of Half Dome. Dave and I, drunk and broken hearted(over the loss of current girlfriends to ex boyfriends), in Boulder Colorado, sat facing each other in a bar. I look down at my glass and Dave said, "cheer up Coz we can go to the valley and free the Southern Belle." I said," why'd you call it - Southern Belle." Dave answered," because some pera broke Walt's heart and she was from the south."
Too funny. How many bold routes have resulted from the right guys being dumped by the wrong women?
Peace
karl
Edit
Coz wrote
" I was solid, Karl, and an elite athlete who dream of climbing at the outer limits of the possible (spirt, mind and body). What's wrong with that? "
Nothing brother, as long as you're ready to allow others to have their dreams too.
Other climbers have allowed your team to take a beautiful piece of stone on Half Dome and make it into the shape of your dreams even though that put it off limits to them. I think we should give Sean and Doug that same benefit of the doubt.
"you can not perceive what you can not understand, so before you judge try to understand. "
Great advice for everybody. I'm cool with agreeing to strongly disagree, but as soon as the chop talk starts, before the route sees enough traffic to judge it's reality, I start calling foul.
I have this "wizard of Coz" song going through my head today after the "Almighty Coz" post. It's too funny
Peace edited
Karl
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:45am PT
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i just rap bolted p diddy's ass.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:53am PT
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bhilden,
In reading backwards I noticed that right after I posted last with some explanations on how things were done and some of the thinking involved, that you had to find something wrong with that. The bolts on the bolt ladder are too close.
You know, even if I had gone up there and gone anchor to anchor. Proud as hell, someone then would have been bashing me for that. When you're in my possition, you just can't win.
They're not 2 ft apart. more like 4 to 5 ft. Not much different than any other ladder in the valley. Before I ever left the valley floor, and long before the decision to rap the top of the route, I knew I was on a mission to create the MOST climbable route on the s. face.
It's a no brainer that there would probly be alot of bolts. If I was on a mission to leave behind the least amount of holes, I would have simply made things way more run out. That was never my goal to begin with.
As for complaining about the escape route or raps to the ground. Surely soooooo many people will be glad to know that that is an option. That doesn't make them pussies. It makes them smart
One day while on the upper wall, a storm came in quickly from the east side. The way they do so commonly there. Thunder and lightning started driving bolts into the Clark range as I carried on. It seemed to be sweeping abit to the north but had us way on edge.
The sky cacked and a blot drove straight into the ground behind us in LYV. My partner said f$ck you man and started to descend as I carried on. Soon after the storm had buried the top of the dome and rain started to pour. The most epic lightning storm I have ever witnessed in my life came with the rain. Bolts were driving into the dome as I descended and waterfalls poured off of the wall.
Soaked and quickly freezing and scared for my life like never before, I carried on. Even running for the camp was scary as the blots carried on. Sitting in the tent was scary as the bolts carried on. ANYONE with any degree of hopes of living a long and happy life WILL be glad knowing that the rap route is there.
Not to mention all the other reasons people need to bail off of walls. The abillity to do a self rescue and not have to have YOSAR pluck you off the wall seems like a good thing to me as well. The more YOSAR has to keep pulling idiots off of walls is bad for all of us the way I see it.
Like I said, I was never worried about the # of bolts on the route as opposed to how and where they were placed. And seeing the line through the way I wanted it done. This line is as state of the art as it gets. Trust this and watch as history unfolds. People will climb this line and many will rave about it. Lines just don't get any better than this.
The one thing I will always take the most pride in is how my lines are left behind. Far beyond how bold I am as a climber. I don't need to prove anything to anyone about how bad ass I am. I'm not bad ass. I've been humbled time and time again and shown just how breakable I am. Espessially when it comes to women. I've seen myself down on the ground crying like a little baby. That's what I was doing up there the whole time, crying like a little baby. So sorry to all of you that had to endure being around me for that. You know who you are and all I can say is thanks for being there for me.
Sean.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:58am PT
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Todd Gordon,
Thank you !!!!!
For the post, the support, and the open invetation to your home all those years in Joshua Tree. I never stayed there bacause I didn't want to invade your space any more than it already was.
But I always knew the door was open. As my door is open to you and your family right now. My door is open to anyone on this post any time you're in Yosemite and just need to come down the hill and get away from the chaos in the valley. I'm very serious about that.
Sean.
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