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Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Apr 25, 2008 - 01:18am PT

[Nuts Only Cliff]
> There's a 5.12c arete up there called "close to the edge" You can't miss it. Hands down one of the best for the grade in the valley.

I've seen the shots by Shawn Reeder of you on it, and I figured it had to be up in that vicinity (higher above the road than Little Wing).

Looking at a list of 12c climbs that I know of, you could be right, given that there are not a lot of *** routes in that grade (or maybe not a lot of 12c routes in the Valley overall):

46. 666 5.12c *
55. Punchline 5.12c **
59. The Principle 5.12c **
149. Satanic Mechanic 5.12c R?
188. Zipperhead 5.12c
207. Meltdown 5.12c ** TR
306. Psychological Warfare 5.12c **
368. Highlander 5.12c
423. Owl Roof 5.12c
611. Close to the Edge 5.12c
641. Gates of Delirium 5.12c ***
1019. Follywood 5.12c **
1431. The Shining 5.12c R **
1446. Hang Dog Flyer 5.12c **
1570. Escape From Freedom 5.12c **
1768. Hall of Mirrors 5.12c R ***
1842. Psychedelic Wall 5.12c
1983. Lost and Found 5.12c *
2189. Mama 5.12c
2307. Croft Arete 5.12c
2344. Take Da Plunge 5.12c TR *
2350. Wicked Gravity 5.12c ***

The list is from my current project of an online guidebook update. Some routes may be out of order at present, and I haven't assigned stars to most of the new routes (Gates of Delirium is an exception because someone I know well said he thought was ***).

In Tuolumne, I bet the competition would be tougher for the top 5.12c climbs, given that there is a lot more sustained face climbing up there.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 25, 2008 - 02:02am PT
More than once this past winter I witnessed valley locals say
F$ck those climbers from the bay area. Who cares if our fixed lines hanging all over and bug them. This is our home. For real.
"f$ck them"

I hope that wasn't me... I did note ropes in a TR thread... Werner pointed out that it shouldn't really be there as it might attract the wrong attention and I edited the reference out of the post. Didn't bug me a bit, sorry if it came off that way.

But it does raise an issue of reading into what's posted here, an imperfect form of communication. It is all so tiring. You all do live there, and that's wonderful. I suspect we envy that a bit...


Trad climber
primordial soup
Apr 25, 2008 - 02:32am PT
that fixed line gig is getting to be a pretty tired act.

word on the street is that after this winter season, it's not likely to be tolerated again.

abandoned property?

Apr 25, 2008 - 11:12am PT
Actually I think what with Facelift and ST a whole lot is happening as regards Yosemite's community. This thread itself speaks volumes. (There was always community in C4.)

By the by no community is always in total agreement so I believe that is not a realistic condition for admitting the existence of community.

A huge number of local non-climbers are supporting Facelift. On the way in to Facelift3 by train I ran into people in Merced who were excited about what is happening. Another couple of days during that trip I got to work on route 120 with people from Fresno and other towns.

Yosemite has a huge community of supporters all through California. Yosemite is our crown jewel. Yosemite is not simply a place to go climbing.

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
From Porkchop Express:
"...the amount of passion and well thought out logical concern that has gone into both sides of this debate really inspires me (hopefully others also)to not be flippant about issues of respect and ethics- something I feel is happening with a majority of "noob" climbers."

To me, this is perhaps the most poignant post in 1800. Ten years from now, climbing style/ethics will be totally different. Just like the eventual acceptance of sticky rubber, chalk, friends, and every other travesty of style and ethic that is now the norm. Like the price of gasoline, it never goes back my friends.

GU is just a tiny chink in the armor. The "flippant attitude about respect and ethics" by many newer climbers is the Rough Beast that slouches towards the Valley to be born.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 25, 2008 - 12:25pm PT
In another thread Roger wrote that he heard there was a party on the South Face.

Coz responded with

"Can they be reached on their cell to swing over and chop growing up, I'll pay ten bucks a bolt."

While folks on all sides have had moments of being upset in this discussion, coz has called for chopping twice now and it seems like an elephant in the room. I got a sick feeling last night that a few 'less talk, more walk" types might be tempted to make the statement of removing the route.

For me, that would inspire deep negative emotions (read way into the lines here) and feel like a big setback to all that we've tried to accomplish in discussing it on this thread.

What you do think? How much negative consensus is needed before chopping is public service and not an assault on the climbing community? If someone can decide, "Screw you, It's a free country and I"m chopping growing up!" is it equally fair to say "Screw you back, Southern Belle is an elitist death trap and I'm chopping it too!"

Want war?

How do we not go there? Is everyone prepared for where that might lead us?

At least Robbins actually climbed the Dawn Wall. Calling for a route chop without climbing it or seeing a topo goes too far when the characters involved are as credible as Sean and Doug.

I wouldn't be bringing this up but Coz has spoken twice now and I know some of the Yosemite Bolt police enjoy getting everybody's panties in a bunch and the attention this has created may be a catalyst. Can our community decide what's "Too far" versus what's "Not great style but tolerate" without getting into violent chop fests?


Dingus Milktoast

Apr 25, 2008 - 12:26pm PT
Look, yall are free to cut someone's fixed line down just as you're free to chop someone's bolt. Pretty simple... no one owns that rock, so called locals, so called Bay Area faggots, uber doobers from Austria, NO ONE.

I respect local perspectives, but I don't bow down before them. I had a 'local' try to lecture me about Table Mtn one day, despit the fact I've spent more days there than the kid. I just burped in his face and picked my teeth and went about my bidness.

Sometimes being local is just an excuse for laziness. Sometimes not!


Big Wall climber
Apr 25, 2008 - 12:32pm PT
hi, a few responses here

werner, sorry if i have you pegged wrong.

slipnot, kauk bolting in tuolumne was a huge deal because it was among the first rap bolting in yosemite. at the same time, routes like punchline in the valley were causing fisticuffs. but now, almost 20 years later, rap bolting has been around for so long, and fully become a recognized style here, so i don't really see what the big deal is. i sure ain't gonna write no freaking poem here.

mungeclimber i don't necessarily agree that bolts to nowhere are botch jobs. if they become huge aid drilled bolt ladders, well, that might not be the prettiest thing. i think its one of sj and dr's argument to go topside, they respected the rock enough to not place unnessary bolts indiscrimantely on the face. i kinda buy it.

doug, thanks for the thanks

poopoi out

Social climber
Apr 25, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
“At least Robbins actually climbed the Dawn Wall. Calling for a route chop without climbing it or seeing a topo goes too far when the characters involved are as credible as Sean and Doug.”

Fact check: Robbins began chopping the route before he had climbed it.
The topo will have little if any bearing on whether rap bolting is inherently bad (which is the point of this thread, I think).

Social climber
Apr 25, 2008 - 02:10pm PT

I offer no argument against the significance of Kauk’s rap bolting. But that doesn’t address my point which is that you argue conflicting views: 1) Kauk’s opening up drilling in Tuolumne should be taken as precedence setting, 2) Chill out, GU is no big deal as it doesn’t have a larger impact

“rap bolting has . . . fully become a recognized style here, so i don't really see what the big deal is”
Wow, that’s quite an assertion. Rap bolting has become “fully recognized” in the Valley??? If that is the case, I could only concur with your conclusion ‘I don’t see what the big deal is’. Previously you called the ground-up ethic so “1980’s”. Yeah, and it is also so 1970’s, 1960’s, 1950’s . . . . Don’t take one decade of an era and then dismiss the entire ethic from that decade as simply a bygone fad. What has happened is basically this: The sport climbing trend swept the nation back in the 90’s. Because that trend is less appropriate for Yosemite granite and because there is/was a strong and traditional local culture, the trend has been stunted in Yosemite. It seems that this thread boils down to this:


If the answer is “yes”, then why are reading this thread? After a topo and TR are available, then we can debate whether or not it was a good route.
If the answer is “no”, then what is the proper response?

Other thoughts:

I accept Sean’s sincerity for intending to create a route with other’s in mind. Sean, while I don’t endorse GU, I apologize for being sarcastic in a previous post in which I questioned your intentions. That was wrong on my part.

While I don’t think HD should support rap bolted routes, chopping the route would be a mistake. If the answer to the above question is “no”, an appropriate response is to reaffirm that rap bolted routes in Yosemite Valley are not welcome and will not be celebrated.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 25, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
"Previously you called the ground-up ethic so “1980’s”. Yeah, and it is also so 1970’s, 1960’s, 1950’s . . "

I thought it would be cute to mention the first ascent of Lost Arrow starting from it's top but heck, that was controversial at the time too



Social climber
Apr 25, 2008 - 03:17pm PT
Lost Arrow Spire FA was in the 40's, I believe.

North fork, CA
Apr 25, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
DMT wrote:
"Pretty simple... no one owns that rock, so called locals, so called Bay Area faggots, uber doobers from Austria, NO ONE."

But left out: way homo sperm burpers from Fresno. They should be included.

Trad climber
primordial soup
Apr 25, 2008 - 05:02pm PT
i think "Bay Area faggots" and "Uber Doobers from Austria" would be cool route names, fwiw.

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Apr 25, 2008 - 06:05pm PT
"mungeclimber i don't necessarily agree that bolts to nowhere are botch jobs. if they become huge aid drilled bolt ladders, well, that might not be the prettiest thing. i think its one of sj and dr's argument to go topside, they respected the rock enough to not place unnessary bolts indiscrimantely on the face. i kinda buy it."

aye, fair enough, I've not been up there, nor could I climb at that level for that sustained amount of slabbage. Feel the calf burn.

Apr 26, 2008 - 08:12am PT
Whew! Talk about the Gates of Delirium! I just waded through the ENTIRE thing in two days. Full disclosure: I'm not a climber though I've been dragged up a few easy classics, Snakedike, Royal Arches, Cathedral Peak and even Overhang Bypass... After living around climbers for almost 30 years I would normally never deign to comment on a forum that includes contributions by significant climbing royalty (especially after Russ Walling's brutally hilarious synopsis) but after literally reading the whole thing out of fascination I feel I've paid my dues plus I'm posting for the good of everyone (!)

This has been a great thread, Cosgrove shouting "Thief!", Bachar's naked emperor analogies, Doug R.'s full soul-searching disclosure, Sean's signature stream-of-consciousness, and where would this rant be without Karl Babaji's "enlightening" and measured philosophical musings, sounds like he and a lot of others had much fun. Even Steve Schneider made a late appearance and broke ranks with the "old school". I think my favorite comment was by Kevin Worrall, "Some people inherently cling to the past and tradition and are threatened by change and new ideas. Others see new things with an open mind and welcome a fresh perspective. The latter rarely impose their morals on the former. That's human nature."

I caught on to madbolter1's extreme sarcasm pretty quick "Come on herd!" it was damned funny, that! I forgot to mention Werner's often cryptic posts, the one about the Bachar document for establishing "ground-up" rules was particularly mysterious...

Was Bill Russell in there? Ken Yager? Great posts by Blair D. and Ben Montoya.

It's been groovy. Thanks so much!


Social climber
Apr 27, 2008 - 12:09am PT
Alright, enough talking. Let’s get off the computers and into the wilderness to do to some serious camping.


Apr 27, 2008 - 12:26am PT
Sean and Coz last posts seem to have canclled each other out.

Looks like you all will have to start all over again from the begining .......

Santa Fe, NM
Apr 27, 2008 - 01:23am PT
GU, has nothing in common, it is a low angle slab that can be stance drilled. THE SOUTHERN BELLE WAS ALL DRILLED ON STANCE, ALL EXCEPT ONE BOLT ON THE SECOND PITCH.

No, actually, it has one thing in common at the very least - it was rap bolted just like your JTree routes. IMHO grade has little rational in this arguement but that point is probably moot to you. It's all relative to your own *personal* perspective.

1. When you drill on stance the bolt is always in the right place, it's harder to stop and drill then to just clip.

I agree here. But it would be ignorant to assume that their bolts are "misplaced". With due consideration it's rather easy to also place bolts on rap in the "right" (clipping) place. In fact, it's rather easy to "assume" that bolts are in the right place and in fact in more "right" places for clipping (though reducing the sack-up-I-gonna-die-if-I-fall value).

2. All other ascents use binos and studied the face to find the right way, and never got lost.

Simply, Doug and Sean rap-bolted a climb that could have been done, stance drilling, all their arguments are not logical in the face of the facts. I am greatly shocked that anyone would buy their arguments, all of them have been proven wrong.

No, this is a blanket statement. To say it "could have been done" that way, well, I call BS. You don't know. You were not there. You didn't attempt. Your statement is essentially nothing more than an opinion without factual knowledge and is as meaningful as all of my rant here (READ: worthless on the grand scheme of things).

They took a big step backwards, and their rational, money and time; they lack any kind of real respect for the future and their act was far from self-less.

I'm sure you noticed that some agree and others do not. Why? 99% of the climbing population would never sack-up and go do SB. Sissies. Oh well. Concensus says that most of us are happy to take a risk but not a death-risk. Such is life (which, I really sort of like).

I feel the bolts should be removed by the first descent party, and the mighty face be climb on it's own terms. The South Face is one of the last great places to climb, in free-stance style.

We all gather that. I hope they are not removed. I hope to read of reports of the second, third, 27th ascent and have people rave about the route. One thing I do know is there is a riduculous amout of rock out there. That Doug and Sean ethically did something "wrong" (to some) means little to me. Adventure at the cutting edge of death is missing from this route.

I find it very sad that no one seems to respect anything anymore, maybe it's the times or lack of education. Maybe the mindless media has turn us into spirt-less drones.

Respect? Do you mean like respect as in the rules in Yosemite that there will be no motorized drilling? Our arguement as to rap VS. ground-up affects very little. Your bust on EC could have had major implications with respect to our collective access to climbing in Yosemite. Where was the respect there?!?!? (different because you felt the Park rules unfair? [VS well founded {laugh} eithical rules]) I call hypocrasy plain and simple. Your actions with a motorized drill on EC risks way more to our sport than Doug and Sean's can even touch. The opioniated stance you take bothers me.

Just my thoughts, DR and Sean if you did the climb on stances and protected it well, you wouldn't have to tell the world what great climbers you are - they would know, be humble and do the right thing.

Scott, I've watched you from afar - 20+ years climbing - and have to draw difference with you in this case. Times change. People change. Sh#t happens. I'd love to make you sushi one day and discuss. My opinion is nothing personal on anybody ever. But I'm sure my comments didn't make a friend. My commments stink just like everyone else. Oh well... I'm sticking to them.

Peace, Nature
Brian Kimball

Sport climber
Westminster, CO.
Apr 27, 2008 - 02:22am PT
Of topic: Does anyone know if the threads are hangin' on E.L.D?

Back to Dihedral Wall: Does anyone know if Todd added those free climbing bolts on lead or on rap?
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