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Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 27, 2008 - 11:00am PT
Coz, you should go out there and repete Southern bell and then climb GU. Then you can tell us which one is more fun;)

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 27, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
That was kind of my point. Does the world really need more routs that even the FA won't repete?

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Apr 27, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
tradman, you can still toprope it. hike to the top. no one has to lead everything. cheers.

coz, I wouldn't say this... "the ends justify the means, and all morals and values are out the window." even in jest. people will think you have changed your mind and accepted it for the area. you personally don't have to accept. Others may. We all might accept it, but you definitely don't have to.

 edit - reread, for sarcasm. check

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Apr 27, 2008 - 01:39pm PT
one more post for pushing to 2k

it's the principle, you see.
quantity has a quality all its own.

Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
Apr 27, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
I have read every post, some more than once.

A highlight for me was Tom Higgins sharing with us some wonderful remembrances of time spent with Bob Kamps. I have about .01 cents worth to add to his words. I bouldered regularly with Bob at Stoney point for about ten years. I was fortunate to rope up with him a few times in Josh, Tahquitz Rock, and even once in The Meadows. Bob set such a high bar regarding matters of style. It meant nothing to Bob Kamps if you, or he, could get up a hard set of moves. It only counted if you made it look easy!

What is the relevance of such a sense of style? It sharpens the game.

Much has been said here to the point that the next generation should and will do things in a different style than their predecessors. Few are willing to take the stand however that certain “new” styles are changes for the better, while others are regressive. Take the clean climbing revolution, certainly an example of a progression in style. How about Alex Honnold’s recent accomplishments both on sight leading and free soloing! Pushing standards in style beyond a doubt.

In the past few years there have been so many amazing developments. El Cap, recently the domain of the aid climber now has numerous free routes being done in a day. People are climbing without bolts, and sometimes without any protection at all on harder climbs than ever before. Name who you will. Pick what examples suit you. We all know what is going on. Free climbing is being revolutionized. Just as it has been in the past and will be in the future. The best climbers are refining and sharpening the game every day. And those whom I admire the most are capable of discerning what style of ascent is the best path towards their goal. And they understand that a goal has no meaning without context.

This is the arena which two climbers, neither one of them exactly a representative of the next generation, stepped into when they decided to do a top down ascent on the great South Face of Half Dome. Sean Jones and DR have argued, with passion and eloquence, the reasons for their choice. Yet their actions leave climbers wrestling with many questions.

Is it true, as Nature says, that Coz’ rap bolting a one pitch 5.14 sport climb in Joshua Tree is no different than establishing a climb like GU from the top down?

Is there something about certain walls, such as SFHD, which set them apart from other climbing venues? How one feels about this will lead one to or away from the conclusion that this new route somehow takes something away from the entire face.

Does every rock wall need to be climbed regardless of the tactics required to create a route which is acceptable to a majority of climbers?

(Of course my phrasing of these questions betrays my feelings… )
Spencer Adkisson

Trad climber
Reno, NV
Apr 27, 2008 - 04:20pm PT
coz, I've ready both Collapse and Guns Germs and Steele. Where is the connection here?

The only real climbing is ground-up, onsight, free soloing, using only your hands and feet for upward progress. Everything else is a concession of some sort, and a shade of gray. So why are any of us arguing about this?
Chicken Skinner

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2008 - 04:26pm PT
Sean asked me to post his topo for him. This should be good for another round.

Have at it.


Trad climber
primordial soup
Apr 27, 2008 - 05:15pm PT
i was worried this thread would be just a line of bolts to nowhere-
but now i can easily see the path to the summit (2K posts, that is), and the weather looks good...

(note to self: return in about 103 posts)

Social climber
The West
Apr 27, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
Got the map, now if ever I learn to face climb...

Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
Apr 27, 2008 - 06:58pm PT
I just want to be sure I am reading the topo correctly.

Every pitch on the route has a bolted belay / rap station.

From the belay at pitch 13, at the end of the traverse, five additional bolted rap stations allow for a direct descent from there instead of reversing the traverse and rapping the route.

The route has somewhere around 180 bolts not counting the escape rappel (I really tried counting but the ADD kicked in and I lost it.)
Spencer Adkisson

Trad climber
Reno, NV
Apr 27, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
K-bone, count'em again and tell us what you get, we're closing in on 2,000, and I need to see something noteworthy accomplished today. =)

Trad climber
Apr 27, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
Is the bolt count correct? Are you sure its not just a bunch of X's to fill in spots? Sometimes I see topos where just a line of X's means a line of bolts, i.e. not the actual count. Just curious, I don't really care either way.

Apr 27, 2008 - 08:56pm PT
nothin' else to say...
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 27, 2008 - 09:00pm PT
All speculation and hear say so far except from the party who climbed the route. Looking for a report from someone when they do climb the route.

Scott...the face has been there for 22 years since you did snooze you lose.

Trad climber
Durango, CO
Apr 27, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
Dang it, Bob! You stole my line to coz by mere minutes.

But in the interest of getting a real climbing thread to 2k posts, I'll post anyway.

Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
Apr 27, 2008 - 09:51pm PT
" ...Are you sure its not just a bunch of X's to fill in spots? "

Ummm. He says 18 draws plus lockers for the belays. I see 18 bolts on several of the pitches.

How about the escape route? Like I said about 1K posts ago. Convenience is the order of the new day.

Mountain climber
Apr 27, 2008 - 10:39pm PT
"I will never accept the rape of the South Face, I want the dam thing removed, I have made that clear."

And who in the heck do you think YOU are?! "Rape"?

The almighty Cosgrove has spoken. HE has made it clear that HE wants the route removed.

I have never seen a bigger pile of self-appointed "ethically superior" dung anywhere.

Doug and Sean, keep up the good work. I hope to meet up with you two some day.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 27, 2008 - 11:03pm PT
183 bolts on the route... sorry to ask but, what kind of bolts did you use? in particular, how are they going to be maintained...

and looks like crack climbing low, but beyond where I am climbing (not only am I a crack climber, I would venture to guess that I'm just a weekender duffer).

Thanks for the topo.

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Apr 28, 2008 - 01:19am PT
Sean, just out of curiosity, how long have you been climbing? Just curious as to your climbing influences. Do you think those informed your decision to go the way you did, or were they not really part of the equation? No ill will intended. Truly just looking to understand the process. I'll try and email you later, rather than clap trap the taco stand. Going to sleep now.

one more post to 2k, tho! :)
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 28, 2008 - 01:21am PT
1907 posts divided by 183 bolts = 10.42 posts/bolt.

Brought to you by the SuperTopo Department of Meaningless Statistics and Associated Thread Bumping.

Jaybro edit: 183 bolts/21 pitches = 8.7 bolts/pitch. There seems some doubt as to the exact number, and perhaps ten of the 183 may only be part of the 'direct' rappel route, so the ratio may be lower.
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