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Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Apr 21, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
Blocking your view? What view would that be, Matt? I haven't seen any evidence over the years that you have a view. You, like many others on this thread, seem compelled to disparage yet another route you haven't done, offering critiques about "style" that reveal only your own narrow-mindedness.

One irony is that while you laud Harding, you utterly fail to apply his wisdom to any situation, but instead find yourself, yet again, on the wrong side. What do you think? Would Harding jump aboard your elitist critique of GU?

Every climber you would say "does it right" has employed "tactics" to get up. Every one of them. You have no basis to single any route out for special condemnation, nor criticize any FA teams.

My "chip" will shrink in proportion to the emerging silence of the Valley Christians. What will it take to shrink your chip?

Trad climber
Butte, America
Apr 21, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
Did not know about OM--always the last, right?

"Age of the Batholith" bash--June 13th (fri) to June 22nd (sun). Spend a day, or a week. If you bring the fam, I can hook you up with more comfy crashins than dirt.

Paradise Valley was a lost cause in terms of land prostitution a while ago. East-Bozeman (Livingston) can over-run those crags ad infinitum, that's why I moved to Butte and the Batholith.

Publish the only guide to an area then move away--hehe, I'm laughing to the bank on that one, since I don't have to answer to anyone at the crags.


Trad climber
El Portal, CA
Apr 21, 2008 - 05:12pm PT
The kids are going to learn the swear words sometime anyway. It's good he also taught them about getting the poison out of a bad snake bite as soon as you can. Hopefully there's no permanent damage done to the finger.

Trad climber
Apr 21, 2008 - 05:13pm PT

Way back several posts, you said:

Here's how things really work.

We're not going to agree.

There is a general feeling of what a true abomination is, they get chopped.

Growing Up falls short of that so the FA folks get a load of grief from the traditionalists instead.

The reception of a load of grief is a deterrent from other's emulating the strategy.

It's either that or "Don't ask, don't tell" like when folks use power drills to fix old anchors. (not that I've seen that for awhile.

It's a social ecosystem of pride and prestige. It takes care of itself except for a few bumps on the road and sometimes tension between styles. We live with it and it beats bureaucracy.

No question there is a certain social pressure exerted by threads such as this one and the occasional bolt chopping which influences at least some climbers toward and away from certain style choices. However, there's also evidence from history suggesting bolt chopping can backfire and embolden certain types onto more of the same. I certainly can speak from personal experience on that one from ye old Tuolumne days. Likewise, the suasion power of thread posting, campfire discussion, even the example and history (such as it is) of the admired and "greats," if I dare use that term, only goes so far. Nearly thirty years of style "debate" would seem to suggest same. So, my point is, if and when things get hot enough between the style camps, voluntary agreements and organizing is an option worth considering, even if all it renders is "OK, that's a sport cliff and that's a trad cliff(sport and trad defined as specifically as possible, maybe 'ground up' is the better divider given the discussion so far). See ya next year for revisions and updates." Call it the agree to disagree approach, operationalized by zone.

Yes, I realize what I'm suggesting has a bit of an unreal aspect, as perhaps you are implying by saying "here's how things really work." But reconsider what "work" means. If you mean, this is how it goes, I couldn't agree more - so far in Yosemite, it's example, past and living, fireside and web networking steering the ship. But if "work" means how things only can happen, then I'll reiterate there are some scattered and partial models around of local forums and committees which are worth consideration for a possible better way. The one at Pinnacles, for instance, was pretty informal but got agreement on ground up from now on (seems to be holding). Granted officials were hovering with proposal for no more bolts at all. And, it's a small area with lots of cliffs near trails and sensitive bird habitats, so conditions are different from Yosemite, but maybe not for long if major rap bolting gets going. Then there is the Eldorado model which I gather is a committee which must approve new bolted routes (not sure what style is allowed for bolt placement), but it has the dreaded official basis and climbers are not the only ones on the bolt approving board, gulp. But my point is what I'm suggesting "really works" in some places, meaning it's there and operative and better than what they had before or what was emerging, namely bolt fests, pretty brutal and divisive tensions between climbers and regulators threatening bolt bans.

As for "it's better than bureaucracy," depends on what you mean. I'm with you on most anything climbers can do voluntarily is better than government intervention. However, if you mean the organizing and agreements I'm suggesting between climbers is bureaucracy, then I'd suggest occasional pow wows between climbers may not be so burdensome. And even full blown voluntary organizations with some funding base and staff and place of business, like Access or the Alpine Club are hardly frightful bureaucracies.

Any time the government gets involved, they'll be regulating physical impacts like bolts or bivies, never style like ground up or rap (although fixed lines for more than 24 hours are technically illegal already)

Agreed. Far easier for them to simply ban bolting as they threatened at Pinnacles than worry about how the bolts are placed. However, my point is to consider agreements not only to tame the style warring but hold off regulators from their blunt force trauma approach.

In the world and in climbing, there's always going to be somebody doing something we don't like

Absolutely. There are many first "free" ascents on El Cap, for instance, without any bolting issue but so much previewing, falling, tension rests, and repeat attempts - call it bouldering in the sky - as to turn my stomach. But then I'm way old trad school where after a few falls and couple of revisits, it was someone else’s turn. However, my likes and dislikes in styles is not the point. In fact, the exact style preferences of all posters here is not the point. The point is when any conflict gets divisive enough - and this one on styles has been in that realm for some time - there may be better options to eternal wrangles and reliance on persuasion or looking the other way.

Thanks for the thoughts and good climbing.

Tom Higgins

in between climbs
Apr 21, 2008 - 05:18pm PT
There's some A0 on the route right? If Sean rap bolted the rig why wasn't he able to free the whole thing? Is it one stopper move or a short tension traverse that will go free? Seems like if you're gonna rap the route, you should figure out a way to make sure it goes free.

Social climber
The West
Apr 21, 2008 - 05:26pm PT
I heard that madbolt pooped on thier bolts. I can't divulge my sources, but this witness, Knows!

Seriouslly though, what a bummer for Sean! That's got to be a bad place for a climber to get buzz-wormed, yikes. Heres vibes for a successful recovery!

Trad climber
primordial soup
Apr 21, 2008 - 05:36pm PT
Blocking your view? What view would that be, Matt?
well for starters, it would be my view that this thread is not about you

I haven't seen any evidence over the years that you have a view.
at least not one that you liked to hear about

You, like many others on this thread, seem compelled to disparage yet another route you haven't done, offering critiques about "style" that reveal only your own narrow-mindedness.
i know it's a long thread now, but that's not what i wrote in it, i said i'd probably rather see it rapped than chipped and drilled all the way up, even if that meant doing it on lead (maybe that's where you got so upset?)

One irony is that while you laud Harding, you utterly fail to apply his wisdom to any situation, but instead find yourself, yet again, on the wrong side. What do you think? Would Harding jump aboard your elitist critique of GU?
you'll have to post a link to my 'laud[ing of] harding' and my 'elitist critique of GU' for me to know what you are babbling about there.

Every climber you would say "does it right" has employed "tactics" to get up. Every one of them. You have no basis to single any route out for special condemnation, nor criticize any FA teams.
how about if i just applaud these guys for not having a chisel in the quiver?

My "chip" will shrink in proportion to the emerging silence of the Valley Christians.
(are you watching that hub-ub in texas on CNN? stay OT here pal)

What will it take to shrink your chip?
how about if you post about WoS in the WoS threads?
last i checked, there was no shortage of those.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Apr 21, 2008 - 05:43pm PT

There is a steep/smooth 60' headwall that Sean couldn't find a way to free. Hey you can only do so much when it's steep and there are no holds! So there is a 60' bolt ladder there. A0 or A1 depending on whether you use aiders, I guess?

Trad climber
Sac, CA
Apr 21, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
RONNNNNN YOU should do the cable route!!!!! Make it a whole summer project!!!! IT IS SO AWESOME to catch an afternoon or two watching you doing things!!! : )
New to your world..but..I've had to catch my husband taking whippers while drilling (by hand) on lead the old fashion way..

Big Walls though..different story, TOTALLY OUT OF MY LEAGUE..

Peace to the climbing world and Tibet : )

Apr 21, 2008 - 06:05pm PT
I thought this thread had hit rock bottom around 1600 posts, when it turned into the testoterone laced FA lists from BITD.

Clearly, with the addition of Madbolter's drivel, it still has a way to go.

Post up everyone!! Tell us how GU is the "better way" and what great GU ascents you did bitd!!! I'll get the lotion...
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 21, 2008 - 06:20pm PT
The meat is off bone on this thread...slim pickins from now on.

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Apr 21, 2008 - 06:25pm PT
"I'll get the lotion..."

"The meat is off bone..."

You guys are killin' me over here. This thread has most definitely taken a turn for the worst, at this point. hahaha

Trad climber
primordial soup
Apr 21, 2008 - 06:48pm PT
just a few more slights, and a few more slighted, and we'll crest 2K posts, how can you guyz quit now?

maybe when the topo is posted?
or if the 2nd ascent TR gets posted in this thread?

so close...

Hobart, Australia
Apr 21, 2008 - 06:55pm PT
"The meat is off bone"

Not entirely so, Bob. Amidst the chaff, chest-beating, and demented topic hijacks, there's some very astute comments being made by Tom Higgins.

Doesn't seem like people are taking the time to comprehend his points, however.

Social climber
Davis, CA
Apr 21, 2008 - 06:58pm PT
I understand that bit about the lotion.

Apr 21, 2008 - 07:23pm PT
Coz did a good troll.

madbolter1? WTF is he talking about? hahahaha

State of Mine
Apr 21, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
madbolter is clearly mad at the style of ascent.

when someone rapp bolts there is no choice but to catapult the sh#t bags up at them as you caint drop em. reminds me of that monty python movie but that was with cows.

Where you want to be
Apr 21, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
At first, I was like WTF?! about madbolter's posts, but then I thought his troll was kind of funny.
Oh well.

Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Apr 21, 2008 - 08:40pm PT
Ok, Matt, since you're claiming that I have tried to make this thread 'about me,' and that you have contributed nothing but joy and light to this thread, let's examine the facts. I quote from some of your almost countless posts on this thread.

Conveniently, you attempt to pretend to be neutral, to "rise above" the debate: "not taking one side or the other, just being a devil's advocate."

But your veiled criticisms of numerous routes, including endless "rhetorical questions," make it clear where your sentiments really lie. I am not the only one noticing this fact. An exchange between you and Bob is revealing:

Bob wrote, "Matt...that would be the FA party. [Who decides what is "reasonable" and so forth]." You respond: "that you don't forsee a problem, is itself the problem."

Bob then responded, echoing my take on your contributions to this thread to date: "No Matt...people like you who ask nothing but questions and only criticize and offer no solutions are problem."

Finally, you offer a rare moment of clarity when you summarize your thinking at one point in time: "i am particularly offended by 'needless' or unwarranted damage or impact upon the rock itself, and i see an unrepeated route, or an unrepeatable route, or a route nobody has any interest in repeating, as a whole lot of impact upon the rock for very little benefit overall, where as impacts like drilling huge anchor bolts or installing rappel routes in certain locations can be seen as impact which is spread out across all the use they get from the many climbers who will benefit from them over time." But this moment of "clarity" just is the basis of the Valley elitism that spawns all this BS.

Now let's examine the validity of your assertion that I tried to make this into a WoS thread. I'll begin with one of your passages that should be a rule you actually follow instead of merely pandering when it suits you: "i was saying that you cannot at this point make the argument that the slab pitchs are 'over-bolted', and that you would at least have to hear it from someone who'd been there, if not see it for yourself, in order to make that claim." Ok, let's keep that principle in mind as we proceed. To make claims about over-bolting, you have to have been there yourself or at least listen to those that have. Ok, we've got that principle well in hand... right? Ok, let's proceed with that principle.

Now, over the course of weeks, in this thread, you took pot shots at WoS and the "WoS crew" that I just let slide BECAUSE I didn't want this to turn into yet another WoS debate. But, YOU, Matt, are just unable to let that dog rest. Here is a sampling of SOME of the MANY shots:

"WoS PoS Jr." Hmmm... this one in context was pretty amazing, actually.

"f*#king thing hasn't seen sh#t for traffic in 20+ what years? i'd say let's find a way to get some use out of the fact that all those holes were drilled there. the aid climbers have voted w/ their feet on that one."

Well, if the "aid climbers have voted with their feet on that one," then I would have to call WoS a truly GREAT route, because literally dozens of teams (including some very well-known ones) have taken their shot at the route. The fact that they can't GET UP it isn't for lack of trying! Furthermore, the "all those holes" you refer to amount to less holes per foot of climbing than there was on the Sea of Dreams when it was put up. I guess by your logic the Sea was a POS because it had MUCH more impact on the sacred rock than WoS did, and that with MUCH less total traffic. And let's remember your own passage about having an opinion about overbolting when you haven't been on the route. Hard to actually ABIDE by your own principle, isn't it Matt? Oh, and you might try paying attention to those that HAVE been on the route, ALL of which (without exception) have stated that the route is not overbolted. So, just keep living in your own version of reality, but don't try to foist it off on the climbing community at this point, because the REAL reality (the one that almost all of the rest of us live in) is now known.

"(note: we are not talking about linking features w/ aid, but continuously chipping your way up a slab, just as the WoS crew were accused of doing. in such a case, how is patching the batholes anything but obscuring your dirty laundry?)" Interesting how you say HERE that we were merely "accused" of "chipping our way up," so you can claim that you aren't really saying that we did... it's just an accusation. But, in fact you just can't help yourself, so you have to make your point a bit clearer: "how about if i just applaud these guys for not having a chisel in the quiver?" Funny thing, though, we didn't have a "chisel in our quiver." So, if that's your base line for applause, then we should be getting our share from you. As we have stated, and as observation parties have found, we did not "chip our way up" the slab, and at NO point did we employ a chisel. In point of fact, the first ascent of the Sea did far more rock damage in one ten-foot section I can mention than there is on the entire WoS route. So, if rock damage is your great Satan, as you have stated repeatedly on this thread, then bash on the Sea and the "FA crew" of that route, and treat WoS with the respect it deserves for being an amazingly low-impact ascent.

"i say let's get a couple of guys w/out a single yosemite big wall under their belt to go up there and seige an unclimbed blank-ish section of this thing, following a line entirely absent in natural features, have them leave the deck with exactly the same hardware the WoS team had, and let's have them camp on the wall for a month, then we'll see how everyone (climbers, NPS, tourists, rope shitters, etc) reacts, then perhaps we can actually make some valid comparisons!" Ah, yes, here's the sh|t. Well, for one thing, we didn't "seige" the route. We committed to it, for however long it took. And, the line is not "entirely absent in natural features." In point of fact, the route follows a pretty apparent line of features. Perhaps because YOU can only follow a line that is "paint by the numbers," you know, the brown #3 goes in this little area, and the red #2 goes in this little areas, and be sure to not paint outside the lines... perhaps that makes it difficult for you to get it. But, perhaps this is a good time to remind you AGAIN of your overarching principle of not talking smack about a route until you have climbed it, or least of paying attention to those that have been there. But, again, it seems that you only give lip service to your loftiest principles as long as they suit your purposes, and abandon them immediately when that suits you better.

None of this sh|t I responded to. But, your approach in many threads has been to marginalize anything Mark and I have to say. Meanwhile you lose no chance to keep the "debacle" of WoS in people's faces, as you repeatedly did in this thread. You can't try to turn this into a WoS thread YOURSELF and then blame ME for it! lol... that dog won't hunt! My responses to you now are your own doing.

And, you can't even begin to hide your sorry elitist attitude when you talk sh|t about Pete.

"what kind of a shitty world is it when we cannot completely disagree with both dadisbad and PtHP at the same time?... it just feels dirty being near either one of you in any way."

You rip on Pete several times in this thread, although his account of HIS views was clear and reasonable (although, for the record, I don't share his opinion in this case). So, let me ask you, what have YOU done in and for climbing that can BEGIN to compare with Pete's record? He's far from perfect, but at least people KNOW where he stands, and at least he CLIMBS according to the principles he holds. I'm with Bob regarding your "contributions" to this thread: lots of questions and vague criticisms, and not a speck of actual insight to be found.

Finally, showing your true elitist colors, you put pedro in his place: "btw bouldering the shist around ontario counts for jack squat, nobody cares." Good job, Matt! Now pedro knows where he stands in the almighty climbing hierarchy. His opinions count for squat because he doesn't even climb worthwhile rock!.... What ridiculous elitist BS! It's that sort of comment that has rightly earned the Valley a reputation as a place with fabulous rock and sh|tty people! I could write multiple books of stories of the elitist crap I have seen against others, not counting what I have experienced myself. For all your supposed sensitivity toward the ROCK, you exhibit precious little toward other human beings.... wellll... at least the ones that disagree with you.

And THAT was my overarching point, that you mistook as an attempt to hijack this thread. We've devoted almost 2000 posts to discussing a route and its impact on the rock and on the sport, but in many posts the people engaged in the discussion seem to care very little for the people affected by this discussion. I could quote it, but people will remember the post from Doug where he expressed his deep and profound trauma at the criticism he was getting. Oh well, people will heal, right? Well, the fact is that it is far easier to patch a small hole in the rock and render it unseen forever after than it is to patch a hole you've ripped in someone's psyche and reputation.

Somehow, after all the years, the climbing "community" cannot figure out how to discuss "style" in an objective fashion without the herd syndrome causing people to rip and tear at the people doing the climbs worth talking about.

So far from lofting above the debate in non-commital and "objective" fashion, Matt, you are one of the worst elitists on the Taco. Show more respect for PEOPLE, even the ones you think have done "wrong" (what a ridiculous term in this context!). That is something anybody can applaud.

Now, finally, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

Trad climber
primordial soup
Apr 21, 2008 - 09:04pm PT

get a life pal.

where to begin:
1) my reading of the attempts for repeats on your route have been that pedro says it's too scary and the others seem say it's really not worthwhile (what did AM say? something more polite like "it's just not the type of climbing that interests me").

2) if you are using a drill bit as a chisel, that's a chisel. maybe it's the lack of a chisel that keeps turning back the 2nd ascents? either way, it's done, and if you want to think of your route as being a sought after 2nd ascent, you go right ahead and see it that way pal.

3) plenty of people are far more offended by this route than i am or ever was. i think the route sounds kinda cool, except that i'd hafta aid the 5.13 corner (at least).

4) i will say whatever the hell i want about your route. get over yourself already. why do you even care? am i the ONE who will judge you? ('i think knott', to respond in the ST vernacular)

5) yes, i think the example of your route is a GREAT argument in favor of the style in which this route was established, and yes, i think these gys showed more respect for the rock itself than you did (and obviously they have much more collective experience than you did).

6) as far as my discussion w/ bob, he seemed to think anyone at all ought to be free to place what ever bolts where ever they like, so long as they get there 1st, and guess i disagree, i think they ought to be used as a last resort. if that's elitist, so be it.

7) you got me on one thing richard- not much about pedro impresses me, climbing or otherwise
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