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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 7, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
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Hey Folks
Just a warning to take care of your feet and beware of Morton's Neuroma
http://www.footphysicians.com/footankleinfo/mortons-neuroma.htm
Women who wear tight shoes or high heels often get it but guess who else wears tight shoes.
Never use your precious feet to stretch too tight shoes. Buy a 2 way shoe stretcher like this one
http://www.footsmart.com/P-FitRight-Two-Way-Shoe-Stretcher-90120.aspx
Or get your local cobbler shop to do it on their machine.
Use this thread to share your experience or bump it unless a lot of folks have seen this info. It will make a bummer of your approach marches if you get it.
Peace and love
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2008 - 03:48pm PT
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from the Mayo Clinic
"A neuroma is a noncancerous (benign) growth of nerve tissue that can develop in various parts of your body. Morton's neuroma occurs in a nerve in your foot, often between your third and fourth toes. The condition isn't a true tumor, but instead involves a thickening of the tissue around one of the digital nerves leading to your toes. Morton's neuroma causes a sharp, burning pain in the ball of your foot. Your toes also may sting, burn or feel numb if you have Morton's neuroma.
Also called plantar neuroma or intermetatarsal neuroma, Morton's neuroma may occur in response to irritation, injury or pressure — such as from wearing tightfitting shoes. But Morton's neuroma may also occur for unknown reasons.
Treatments for Morton's neuroma commonly involve changing footwear, resting your foot, and using arch supports or pads to help take pressure off the area. In some cases, your doctor may recommend anti-inflammatory drugs, a cortisone injection or even surgery if you have Morton's neuroma."
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/mortons-neuroma/DS00468/DSECTION=1
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2008 - 09:30pm PT
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LEB, I know you don't know much about this, but when has that ever stopped you? Post up baby!
Love
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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A message from your friendly Podiatrist Baba .....
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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That bad pain in the ball of your foot could also be a broken sesamoid bone. I have one and it is likely I'll be stuck with it for the rest of my life. Either way, bummer!
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Too late here too. Painful little devils. Fortunately mine flares up only occasionally. But when it does - yelp!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2008 - 09:56pm PT
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Opps, didn't realize somebody already posted about it.
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2008 - 10:21pm PT
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Actually, I know enough about this problem now, I'm just trying to alert other climbers who might feel the pain and not know what it is.
I'll post this in the other thread to (sorry to bump it) but nobody mentioned one of the best treatment which is a series of Alcohol injections at the site.
http://www.biomech.com/db_area/archives/2002/0204.painmana.bio.shtml
http://www.nbwebexpress.com/achieve_more/neuroma/neuroma_print.asp
Injection Therapy: The two common agents used in injection therapy of neuroma are corticosteroid/local anesthetic and alcohol sclerosing agent. Corticosteroid is injected around the nerve to decrease the inflammation and reduce fibrosis or scaring. Greenfield found that 30% of patients undergoing corticosteroid/local anesthetic therapy had complete relief of symptoms and 50% had partial relief [4]. Alcohol sclerosing agent is a dilute mixture that includes a small percent of alcohol and a numbing medication. The alcohol is injected around the nerve in hopes of reducing its size. The therapy involves a series of 3-8 injections with 5-10 days between injections. Dockery found an 89% success rate using this method of injection therapy [5].
I mainly wanted Lois to keep my thread bumped until folks saw it but I see we've discussed it recently
Peace
Karl
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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No worries on the second post Karl, this is great information.
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Sherri
climber
WA
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After years of treating mine with steroid shots, two or three sets of corrective orthotics from podiatrists, and two botched surgeries, I still had neuroma troubles. The thing that finally put a stop to the cycle was a pair of custom orthotics made for me by a local shoe salesman. Go figure.
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slayton
Trad climber
Morongo Valley, Ca
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I have worked at a Birkenstock shoe store for the better part of eleven years now. No, they're not just for lesbians. I have seen all manner of foot funk from arthritis to plantar fasciitis to hammer toes and, yes, morton's neuroma. Who is this "Morton" guy anyway?
At the first sign of any lingering foot pain see a podiatrist. Or if there is a good comfort shoe store in your area go talk to them. Bear in mind that the degree required for podiatry is among the least intensive medical degrees. Seek a second oppinion. Do some research. I've heard horror stories.
By far the most common ailment that I have seen is plantar fasciitis, which is usually characterized by a sharp pain in the heel when getting up on your feet after a period of inactivity, very often first thing in the morning. If this is happening, one of the tendons that attach at the heel has torn, maybe just a bit, but enough to cause discomfort.
Probably the second most common ailment that I've seen is Morton's Neuroma, usually characterized by the feeling of a rock or marble under the ball of the foot in one's shoe, often accompanied by a burning sensation. This is nerve dammage already described (and much better than I could) upthread.
Many of these foot ailments can be treated with orthotics (and the wearing of sensible shoes). If you have insurance that will pay for it or the deductable isn't prohibitive, go for it. If you go this route and there isn't some extenuating circumstance, go for a 3/4 length orthotic vs. a full length. They are more versatile and will fit in more of your shoes. Again, seek a second oppinion, and question the hell out of the pedorthist that will actually be making the orthotics.
There are over the counter orthotics out there. Some are good, some or ok, and some are absolute crap. Realize at this point that you don't necessarily need cushoning, you need support. Gel inserts don't cut it. There is a popular brand of orthotic out there called "Super Feet" that are pretty good. Their major benefit is that they offer a bit of medial support. If you are sufferring from plantar fasciitis this . .. might. .. . work for you. The main drawback is the sizing. I don't remember if it's a two or three size format (men's 9-10 or 9-11, etc.. .. .. same for women 6-7 vs. 6-8) the drawback being that, for most of us, our overall footlength usually correspondes to our archlength so with "Super Feet" if it's too long you just cut off the toe end to fit in your shoe. The arch isn't necessarily gonna be where it should.
If you are dealing with something like Morton's Neuroma you will need more support. Among other things. Your foot has four arches: medial, longitudinal, metatarsal, and transverse. Morton's Neuroma is an ailment that afflicts the area between the metatarsal heads of the foot. Usually right between the third and fourth knuckle of he toes. In this case, metatarsal support is crucial. This arch is pretty much right in the middle of your foot (on the bottom of course) and stops just behind the ball of your foot. When this arch is supported with an orthotic (not many shoes that I know of will actially do this) it will feel weird and may take some getting used to. But more importantly, it will lift and spread the metatarsal heads (those pesky knuckles) thereby relieving the pressure on the neuroma. Assuming of course that you are wearing shoes that are wide enough for you particular hoof.
So. . . .. a major disclaimer here, the only over the counter orthotic that I know of (and this because I've ahd years of intimate contact with it, {I wear it every day} ) is the Birkenstock Blue Footbed. Unlike "Super Feet" it is sized for any particular foot and supports ALL of your foot's arches: metatarsal, medial, transverse, and longitudinal.
Will Morton's Neuroma cure itself over time without surgery or shots or whatnot?? I don't know. Probably depends on the case and the severity. But climbing shoes, ballerina slippers, and sexy high heels (that transfer the weight of your body onto the afflicted part of your foot) certainly ain't gonna make matters better.
Jeebus. Did I just write all that? Well, if you're still reading, bear in mind that I am NOT a doctor. Just someone without a degree but with many years experience dealing with feet.
My best wishes for foot health for all. .. ..
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leinosaur
Trad climber
burns flat, ok
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I used to get numbness, especially at the distal end of the hallux (tip of the big toe) but not as often, if ever, anymore. Sometimes it would last into the next day after climbing. I wonder . . .
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2008 - 12:45pm PT
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Thanks for all the info folk are sharing. Somebody will have less pain in the future because of you
Peace
karl
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Sherri
climber
WA
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Besides the mechanical aspects of foot care(ie--orthotics, shoes, etc), don't forget to address the soft tissue stuff.
Diligence in working on trigger points in the soleus and calf muscles can go a long way toward preventing/alleviating many foot troubles, particularly plantar fascitis. As with many ailments, the real problem often lies far from where the symptoms/pain show up.
Dig your thumbs around deeply in your calves--if you find "hot spots" of pain(you will often instinctively go directly to where they are, without knowing they are there beforehand), good chance that they're trigger points that need to be released...
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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After reading the thoughts on the insurance thread, I feel compelled to defend my trip to the doctor. I only saw a doctor with my neuroma after suffering with it for about 5 years. The pain had become so bad that I could not put a sock on at all. Too much agony. Only then did I do it.
Please don't think me an insurance-abusing slacker for actually going to a doctor.
:)
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Feb 10, 2008 - 12:32am PT
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" No, they're not just for lesbians."
Hahahahaha!!
Are you sure?
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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May 28, 2008 - 04:53pm PT
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I am reporting on my visit to the foot doctor today for my Morton's Neuroma. I learned that rarely is surgery used any more. He gave me a cortisone injection which has a 60% chance of shrinking the neuroma. If that does not work we will kill the neuroma using the alchohol treatment recommended in the article Karl provided. My doc knew the guy who wrote the article and said he was the real deal.
This method permanently kills the nerve. This ends feeling there, avoids surgery and you live pain free.
He also gave me some cool foot pads to stick under my shoe bed to direct the pressure away from the neuroma. I'm looking forward to getting back on my mountain bike.
Cheers,
Jude
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Oct 29, 2008 - 01:53pm PT
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Seven or so alcohol injections later and eating up my insurance deductable the neuroma grows larger and more painful.
Apparently the injections only irritated the problem. Next step is the surgery. Luckily my doc is willing to barter his services for art. Cheers, Jude
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 29, 2008 - 02:07pm PT
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Morton's eh? Sounds real sucky. I work on my feet and over the years have learned the importance of good shoes as a preventative for foot and even back and knee pain. As a Gout sufferer, I know of no worse pain than foot pain. I'de almost rather have a tooth ache.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Oct 29, 2008 - 02:33pm PT
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I thought I had a neuroma...but upon further reading it seems more likely that I have hallux rigidus or a bone spur at the joint of my big toe...not too psyched on this...I have to start reading up on the treatment options...
maybe after Obama is elected I can afford to see a doctor about it ;)
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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UPDATE: I had the sucker removed today. It was the size of a martini olive. After exhausting the alcohol shots and hoping it would just go away, I elected the surgery and now it's out.
The proceedure was quite simple. I went to the doctors office and he numbed the area with novacane or some such drug. He then sliced the top of the foot open between the toe bones and worked his way down to the neuroma. Using his thumb he popped it to the top of the foot and snipped it out.
I read a backpacker magazine article about all of the things that could kill you in the wilderness while he worked away.
My insurance covered most of it and I'm trading a fly fishing painting for the balance.
The foot is elevated, the drugs are on the way, and I should be climbing again in about 6 weeks. Cheers, Jude
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HandCrack
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal.
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Hello Jude,
You probably don't remember me, but I met you briefly at Dwain's birthday get-together in Indian Cove in early Jan.
I just realized that the pain in my foot that has been bothering me for a couple of months is Morton's neuroma. I was wondering how your surgery turned out, and if you are able to climb pain-free.
I was afraid my climbing days might be over but apparently there are treatments available.
Thanks in advance for any info you can pass on.
Brandt Allen
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John Morton
climber
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And then there's "Morton's toe". Years ago a doctor told me I have this condition, which is simply a 2nd toe that's longer than the big toe. He had no idea whether people named Morton are likely to have Morton's toe - but in fact I am named Morton and I do have it. Just now I learned at http://www.philadelphia-reflections.com/topic/17.htm that there were 2 Dr. Mortons, one of whom named Morton's toe. The other one named Morton's neuroma. I know, I know, too much information.
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Jim Lawyer
climber
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Neuroma Woes:
I had a neuroma that troubled me for years, brought on by tight rock shoes. I tried cortesone injections, but there was no change. I went through 10 top-of-the-foot shots of saline solution to kill the nerve, very painful, and also didn't change anything. I suffered for many years, sometimes barely able to walk back to the car from the cliff. While climbing in Kenya, I was in tears by the end of the day, which finally convinced me the need for surgery. It was removed, and the foot was back to 100% 6 weeks later. I'm climbing better than ever without foot pain. Lesson learned -- NO MORE tight shoes!!!
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Oct 17, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
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Any follow up on the surgeries? Did it take? Looks like I'm heading down this path.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Oct 17, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
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Jerry:
I have had three neuromas. The first was actually at the base of my left leg - a weird spot. But it is on the same nerve that goes down between two 3 and 4. Years ago in STL, when it was unbearable (really couldn't even wear socks on it) I went to a doc. Got a steroid shot.
One of the singular most painful moments of my life. I'll never forget what the doctor said "It's exquisitely painful."
Weirdo.
Anyway, though the shot was absolutely heinous, it shrunk and desensitized the evil little beast. It's still there today, though much smaller and without pain.
The other two were the 'normal' neuromas - one in each foot. Painful for sure. I just had them whacked out during my bunion procedures. It's SO nice to have that pain gone.
Not sure that helps, but I don't miss mine and am happy to have the permanently out of my life. And I have cool scars to boot. :)
edit: Here is a photo that shows the healing surgical site. I had a pretty decent bunionectomy at the same time so a neuroma removal won't look quite as colorful.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Oct 17, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
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Wow, that doesn't look fun, but I'm glad it worked.
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mark
climber
san diego, ca
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Oct 17, 2011 - 11:40pm PT
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I might have a story of my experience that is outdated, with new injections etc... but when I had Morton's, I "thought" I was over climbing and had to resort to a wheel chair cause I could not walk and to put my foot in a climbing or reg. shoe was torcher, esp. in the mornings... I had the Nueroma removed in 1994 and wished I had it in 1993, a yr. of agony..., i subsequently climbed well. I now have, on the same foot, from a motorcycle accident a jacked Halix joint (no cartlidge) and am having OrthoFisc injections as I speak, not FDA approved on any other joint then the Knee but it is working OK, 25% relief. If you have Morton's, the best thing for me was take it out, and yes, just as Baba said its from tight fitting shoes ie. climbing, I am no TV :)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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bump this one too
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Blast from the past. Still thrilled I got rid of the neuromas. Like someone said above, wish they would have been dealt with before - why I lived with that pain for so long is a mystery.
Absolutely no long term post surgery woes. The only thing I notice is that when someone is massaging my feet, I don't like them massaging that spot on the bottom of my feet. I think they hit the nerve stump and it makes a surprising zing.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
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Just now I learned at http://www.philadelphia-reflections.com/topic/17.htm that there were 2 Dr. Mortons, one of whom named Morton's toe. The other one named Morton's neuroma. I know, I know, too much information.
Nope, Toe Much Information
Just a suggestion when you're off the crags, the shoes that never aggravate my Neuroma, even if I dance all night (and I do) are crocs. I used to think they were ugly (and they are) but man, they're great for that foot thang
peace
Karl
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darkmagus
Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
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Good post, this is something that I've always thought would be relevant to climbers! In my experience as a clinician, the corticosteroid shots have more risk than benefit (e.g. they don't "fix the problem", but they definitely weaken the surrounding bone). Might be ok if you're absolutely desperately in pain. Surgery does work for this one, also kind of a last resort, as it obviously has many risks. Orthotics are the way to go (custom only) and if you can find a friendly chiropractor that can adjust the bones in your foot, try that one out! It may be possible to stave off the need for surgery by providing relief through the adjustments. Feel free to PM me regarding conservative management possibilities!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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in the short term, I'll seek orthotics for relief... my guess is that my foot is changing shape, spreading, which is harder to accommodate in my shoes which had had smaller toe boxes, at the same time as I am pronating more... this is causing all sorts of other issues, no doubt, including knees and hips which are all out of sorts anyway due to the back... but the symptoms I'm displaying seem to be classically Morton's Neuroma...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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Good to work with it while it's first showing symptoms Ed. If find once it's aggravated, it stays worse but if you let it calm down for a bit, it will be OK until you mess with it and it's inflamed
peace
karl
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Shoes which are too tight can be implicated.
For years I slaved under a rule of thumb, so to speak, to purchase my kletterschue about 2 Euro sizes smaller than my street shoes - then, my EBs were a 42; street wear about 10.5. Generally OK, but a long day left me wishing I could walk on my hands. But not to the point reached by one partner, who needed to take his shoes off after each pitch - the smell alone would put anyone off his feed.
Eventually I had to face the fact that as we age, our feet broaden. Unless, per "Born to Run," we run down the wily antelope barefoot, and so strengthen the foot. When the foot hurts, your whole body can follow suit. Seems like the foot will also flatten out and broaden at the end of a full day on them, too.
So...in searching for some good pair (which didn't give rise to 'hammer toe,' where the smallest 2 or 3 little piggies would be forced by the shoe's toebox into a clenched, fist like, conformation)...I found myself a pair of Sportiva men's size 12's! And they are as comfortable as a pair of bedroom slippers. I even get to wear socks, of various thicknesses, to feel snug.
Turns out, as I was to learn from my ski boot fitting, that it just boils down to: No foot movement within the Shoe!
And these slippers seem to bull's eye edge as good as ever. Replacing Sportiva's sole with Steath "Onyx" rubber was indicated on my first trial outing - took a Slip and Fall on a stretch of friction on Freewheeling, under the delusion that my favorite shoe maker would, by now, have incorporated rubber equal to the design and construction of the shoe proper.
Not only is the performance acceptable, within the range of other unrelated limitations, the pitches flow by much more pleasantly when foot pain free. Leading to an enhanced performance overall, and a more pleasant one to Boot!
Custom orthotics are also terrific: "Footloose," in Mammoth is a great provider/mf'r. Improved trail running, approach hikes, and X skiing were the result of a marriage of carefully selected last/rand profiles, and vacuformed orthotics.
After reading this thread, I'm very grateful that I've never met either of the Dr. Mortons. I've also avoided shin splints, compressive tib/fib fractures, sprains. A chiropodist partner of mine called a minor pronation while we went out for a run together, and this led to the first orthodics to nip some developing runner's knee in the bud, before it morphed into skier's knee.
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HuecoRat
Trad climber
NJ
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I had a neuroma in my right foot for many years. Super painful when edging, and when walking in mountain boots (although climbing in mountainboots was pain free). Tried injections to no avail. Finally had surgery to remove it. It was a full inch in diameter. The surgeons were so impressed they photographed it and wrote it up for a journal. I have been so happy to be without the pain!! Every now and then I will get a twinge, but it's no big deal.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol
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There are moments for tight shoes in climbing. Those moments aren't while training, at the gym, in most cracks, or on moderate terrain. 90% of your climbing can and should be done in comfortable shoes. When you need to do the hard send, pull out the tight pair.
If I had any advice for people who want to climb for a long time, it is to fit your shoes as loose as you can climb in, instead of as tight as you can sqeeze in.
Over six weeks In 2010 I trashed my feet crack climbing in a trusty old pair of Kaukulators that came out of retirement when my other shoes blew out. I did Astroman and went up the Hulk three times. My feet had apparently changed shape since I last used the shoes, and kept going numb. By the end I could hardly walk let alone smear on a hold. Come to find out, foot jams aren't good for your feet! Over the past two years I've been sticking to steeper routes and avoiding routes that require foot jams, and the feet are finally feeling better.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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I've had a nueroma of some type in one foot for over 15 years. Hot weather causes more swelling and a quicker onset of the burn. Spent too many hours trying to fix it and now live with it. Those down-turned toes in most models of climbing shoes are impossible for me to wear. Comfy = good.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
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Apr 19, 2014 - 11:37pm PT
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Looking for any updates of folks that have had to deal with this, Climbing doesn't usually bother it, but hiking. OH BOY. At about mile 5 it kicks in, by mile 10 it's brutal. Today I had to take my boot off twice to rub it. I made 15 miles but I don't think I could have gone an inch further. Usually it relieves as soon as I'm off it but tonight I'm still having tingling hours after. I've heard about surgery and also the "shots". And as Crimpie said, I did hear they are "excruciating". ... Oh great. I did have a cortisone shot in the elbow once that I started to pass out from and I dread anything like that again.
Thanks!
Susan
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 20, 2014 - 01:28am PT
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weird to see this pop up again...
I was having trouble the last time I was in Vedauwoo, climbing ok, hiking was horrific...
favoring that foot a lot, and being protective, I winced jumping off some high boulder with climbing shoes on onto the stone, ouch!
but then it went away, completely, for years...
when it flairs up (very rarely these days) I just find the table leg support structure under our dining room table and push the edge of the horizontal beam hard into the space between the toes... really hard.
for some reason that helps me.
DISCLAIMER
I'm not a doctor in real life (well, not a medical doctor) and I don't even play one on TV.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Apr 20, 2014 - 03:14am PT
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When I was having foot pain with similar symptoms, I read about using a 2-litre water bottle to put pressure on the foot - or set front of foot on a stair step and then weight it,to stretch the foot muscles. So Ed,your idea sounds similar.
My experience was that I started to get a horrible pain when I would get out of bed in the morning (or a mid-sleep pee run). It would be nearly impossible to weight the foot, the pain was so bad. I tried the rolling water bottle, stair steps(and rocks along the trail, on climbing days) and it brought temporary relief, but I didn't use it as a regular exercise.
I don't think mine was brought on solely(pun) by climbing shoes. i think it was because I was wearing Crocs as my everyday shoe, 365 days a year, for like two years. There was no arch support whatsoever. so, I followed the other suggestion, which was to use shoes that supported my foot, and inserts to provide further pressure. I just used grocery store Dr Scholl inserts - several people had told me they had paid big money to docs for special inserts which didn't do anything different. Sandals were to be avoided at all cost. It sucked, but my foot got better. And now I can wear Crocs again, but I also wear more supporting shoes too.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
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Apr 20, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
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Thanks all. Yup, gotta move in the direction of doing something. Today on a bike and hike (no I didn't hike the bike!)....at about 5 miles into the hike I wanted to do an Aron Ralston to my foot. When biking up a sustained grade of 4% or greater it kicked in (never happened biking). And it still hurts, but not real bad, just sitting around. That's new.
So I'm starting off with the dining room table thingy, the rolling bottles and sending my addy to get the free inserts!
I've used various ortho inserts and custom made ones for other foot problems a few years back and they only made things worse!
Susan and her foot signing out.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz CA
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Apr 30, 2014 - 11:26am PT
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Thank you Kent! Arrived just in time as I'm off on some extensive traveling. In the shoe as we speak!
Susan
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Sanskara
climber
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Apr 30, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
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I line my ballet golds with a couple layers of cut up foam insoles from old sneakers. I then place one of those met pads like you have in that picture down under the ball of each foot. So that's three layers total. The things we will do to keep recreating!
I can't feel sh#t for features on the rock but I have been able to climb up to 5.12 this way. Regardless of sensitivity to rock features those met pads saved my climbing as I was not climbing anything with the ball of foot pain like was having. It hurt so bad I couldn't even put my foot on the ground if I wanted to at times.
I actually got stuck in the woods ice climbing a couple years ago and thought I was gonna have to be carried out as I could not stand. Crazy condition as nothing is broken just the ball of your foot feels like someone is drilling a f*#king hole in it or something.
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Apr 30, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
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I had one neuroma in each foot. Both were removed with surgery and I would do it again if another one develops. The surgery is benign, you have to rest your foot a few weeks, and it is over FOREVER. No injections, pads and other gizmos. The sooner you do it, the sooner you are back on the rocks!
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Aug 27, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
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Had to bite the bullet. Surgery next Thursday. Neuroma to come out. I also had a permit to hike Whitney the same day. Surgery won out as I knew I would suffer horribly going up and down Whitney having to take my boot off every hour to rub it.
Not happy about recovery during prime fall play time, but things were just getting too unmanageable with the constant need to remove my boot or shoes to do an on-site massage.
Even drive thru surgery squicks me out. She wanted to do it TOMORROW because she had a cancellation but then said she probably couldn't get insurance authorization that quickly. Phew, I was getting light headed as things went from 0 to 60 in a 15 minute consult.
I went back to re read the related threads and was happy to hear the folks saying it was the best thing they ever did. Hope I report the same.
Susan
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 27, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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Good luck. Still avoidign surgery. Ice that foot every night to keep any inflamation from putting pressure there. I like seeing a few success stories - didn't hear too many of those years ago.
I stopped in a specialty running store after a half marathon - my foot was screaming at me with the burn from 10 miles on. I had to walk a couple of times for quite a while. THe gentlemen told me that your feet do get larger even as an adult. If you are waering the same size show as 20 years ago, it is probably too small, especially at the end of day when your feet expand. So I bought my trail running shoes a full size larger. Thus far, much fewer problems. I also dunk my feet in the streams for a few minutes during my long trail runs. It slows me down, but not as much as being crippled by the pain.
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couchmaster
climber
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Aug 27, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
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I'm surprised that I didn't thank Karl for his awesome tip to buy a 2 way shoe stretcher. Just pop it in that brand new shoe you mistakenly bought to your street shoe size (instead of the correct 2 sizes over:-) on the internet and crank it. Voila, instant fit.
THANKS BABA!!!! GREAT TIP!!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 27, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
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Surgery years ago has never been regretted. I bought all sorts of gimmicks before hand and at some point they do not help at all. It's a giant ball of scar tissue on the nerve - it just has to go.
Good luck Susan - nothing to worry about. You'll wonder why you waited so long. :)
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Aug 27, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
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Thanks Crimper. I suspect you are right...."what took me so long".
I've got one of those shoe stretchers. I use it for creating space for an osteoarthritic toe. It's never done anything for my neuroma, but I never expected it to. However, it does create a nice little pocket of extra space to accommodate the bony build up on my toe.
Susan
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 27, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
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I hope to see a full on TR on your experience.
I share this TR - http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1127472&msg=1127472#msg1127472. It focuses on the bunions but you can see the neuroma cut too.
For a while after the surgery, when I'd pull up a sock it'd feel like there was a thread that was sliding between my 3rd and 4th toe. It was so realistic I'd take off my sock hunting for it. Just and odd sensation from the neuroma being cut out. That faded with time.
Today, the ONLY thing I notice is that I don't like anyone pinching my foot on the nerve stumps. It sends zingers and an involuntary foot flinch. Other than that, I don't think about them at all.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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10 hours out. Lidocaine doing it's job....no pain. Of course that could change tonight. Right decision... Doc said it was one of the largest she's seen.
Tomorrow I begin the first of weekly dressing changes until stitches removed, I guess.
Susan
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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You will come to love that protective shoe!! Stay ahead of the pain.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Crimpergirl is right, Susan, stay ahead of the pain. Use those meds. I was up all night after my surgery in intense pain because the bottle said 1 every 4-6 hours. Right after surgery, that is just a suggestion :)
I feel really grateful to just be here to support you and to whine a little about the big toe bruise that I've been dealing with for over 3 months...
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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I hope that your doctor took ol' Morton's neuroma and gave him the old what-for.
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Tan Slacks
climber
Joshua Tree
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Hey Susan,
I hope all goes very well for you. I was just diagnosed two days ago with Morton's Neuroma on my left foot. I have been dealing with the severe on and off pain for several years, only in the last 6 months did it not go away for any extended time. It's killed my climbing time and I can only wear boots at work when absolutely needed.
So I went to the Doc two days ago, he manipulates my foot and I have a very clear clicking going on. I guess this is a good indicator of MN. So he gives me a shot of Cortisone and says "lets see how this does for three weeks" Did you also have the cortisone and if so, was the pain initial relieved?
I was able to wear my boots all day today at work. This is a huge relief, but will it be short lived? The doc said the cortisone works about fifty percent of the time in his experience. My climbing partner out here had the MN surgery several months ago and he is soooo happy climbing pain free again
Heal up quickly and like the others said, stay ahead of the pain right after the surgery.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Yes indeed, these foot problems can be painful and complicated and I agree with Jim that it is useful to understand the cause of the problem and adjust your activity accordingly. If you just "have to" do something that makes the problem worse then maybe a reevaluation is calling your name.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Tan Slacks Did you also have the cortisone and if so, was the pain initial relieved? Yes, two rounds of cortisone about 6 weeks apart. Temporary, partial relief. Prior to that just about every insert, stretch, ice, reducing activity etc for YEARS!
I hurt for many years, turning to suffering this past year....situationally dependent (hiking, running 4+ miles; sustained ascents on my bike) with it edging into more everyday activities...walking around museum, extended shopping etc.
I was very surgery averse, especially being the foot. I did a lot of research and finally settled on a referral from the sports orthopedist who did my shoulder. The referral was to another sports medicine orthopedist who specializes only in foot and ankle. Of course only time will tell, but in terms of homework to pick a doctor I had faith in I was diligent.
As for the procedure itself...no issues, as to long term results...stay tuned!
Susan
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HandCrack
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal.
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Hi there,
Tan Slacks partner here, just thought I'd add my 2 cents.
I went through very much the same things you just described in your last post. The surgery I had last December was a great help in improving my climbing. I can hike, bike, scramble up approaches, all without pain; I've been steadily losing weight that piled up while I couldn't do these things with a bad foot. Best of all, I can slot my foot in a crack and twist it without feeling like someone has stuck a cattle prod into it.
Healing from the surgery went quite well. I believe I was (carefully) doing easy routes in five or six weeks, and climbing without babying it a few weeks later. There is numbness in the third and fourth toes that I'm told will always be there, and sometime I feel a twinge when I step in a way that pushes on the stump of the nerve that was nipped off. Overall though, I have to wonder why I waited so long to get this done.
Hope things work as well for you.
Brandt Allen
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Overall though, I have to wonder why I waited so long to get this done.
This is what I heard so many times from so many people (not just athletes) that finally did it for me, too.
Everything I heard or read about was 10 to 1 great results and very happy. I'm sure hoping to be on the "ten" side.
Susan
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Brandt - over time the numbness won't feel odd/numb any longer - It will just feel normal. That sounds weird but is the case.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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24 hours out. No swelling...but I had it elevated most of yesterday. The "strings" are stitches. Evidently the doc likes to leave a lot of slack so they don't have to dig around with tweezers when stitches come out. Sounds good to me! And yes, I did a polish refresh before surgery.
Susan
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Best wishes, Susan.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Down to a tiny little scar, regular shoes and gradually adding miles to my hikes. I have yet to bike up a steep ascent. Won't know if I'm pain free until I can hike at least five miles. Right now I sometimes get a "knobby" feeling, but no pain, when I hit a few miles, then I back off. I'm feeling pretty good about it so far.
Susan
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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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I have general numbness in my feet/toes which a doctor attributed to diabetic nerve pain. The medication put me to sleep so I went without.
Needless to say, I climbed anyway, usually without major pain. Then, this summer, I climbed with new shoes on a fairly edgy face climb, and seriously hurt the big toe on my left foot, and somewhat on my right. Totally lost the nail on the left, the right one hung tight but had blood under it.
I also noticed a real swollen bunion on my left foot. Finally went to a podiatrist when it didn't seem to want to heal, and he told me I'd dislocated the left big toe. While concerned about the blood and the loss of the nail, advising me to use something to ward off fungus, he basically advised me to buy good orthotics, of the plastic type, which he sized to my foot, and to wear little "separaters" between the toes, which I have for weeks.
The pain has subsided, but the bunion still protrudes more than it ever did.
What is the prognosis? After several weeks of treatment and babying my feet, can I get back out? Should I go on some hikes first?
I'm concerned the podiatrist will be inclined to elect for surgery, and I won't do it.
Wish my toes were as hard as my head.
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Norman Claude
climber
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I've had four foot surgeries including one for a Mortons' neuroma. NONE of the surgeons recommended Correct Toes. These are toe spreaders that actually work. These need to be tried for many months before going under the knife.
It's taken me four years before I could foot jam. or even walk with a normal gait.
Wearing wide at the toe shoes is also essential.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Congrats Susan! It only gets better!
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WhiskeyToast
Social climber
Hawaii
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Oct 24, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
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Susan, Can you give us an update? How are things going? I've suffered for over ten years with MN and this thread has inspired me to get the operation. I'm searching for a good surgeon.
Thanks everyone.
Greg
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
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Oct 29, 2014 - 06:26pm PT
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I am happy with the results. Off and on I've had some foot pain since surgery when I've really pounded it. However, it was different than the neuroma pain and I felt was mainly the healing from the surgical trauma. This past week I've really been pounding it with a lot of mountain biking and hiking. I have not had any neuroma pain at all.
I've been adding mileage to my biking and hiking and I am pleased...very pleased.
I'm happy with my surgeon who is an orthopedic surgeon who specializes in foot and ankle.
Susan
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Oct 29, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
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Like! :)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
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I hasn't been bugging me much in recent years but I also wear crocks almost all the time, even when socially awkward and wear Vibram 5-Fingers on hikes cause they keep the toes separated.
Haven't tried to go backpacking for awhile.
Peace
Karl
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