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Crag Q
Trad climber
Louisville, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 13, 2008 - 12:03am PT
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The lastest Climbing Anchors book caused me to rethink a lot of things about anchors that I held as sacrosanct. This last year I used the equalette extensively. The ability to adjust the clove hitches to make things just right and the equalization seems to add a margin of safety for unexpected directions of pull not present in the cordolette.
However, for mulitpitch climbing I have some issues with the master point. Having to use two carabiners to avoid binding seems a little extravagant and does not leave a good place to attach a reverso. If you want to get around the 2 biners using a magic x doesn't leave much room if you want to clip in multiple things such as the rope, a daisy chain and a reverso type belay device. Either way the master point is not as spiffy as with the quad anchor or the cordolette. Also I have a hard time imagining the equalette working well in a big wall anchor scenario since the over hand knots could easily get welded and because of these short comings with the master point.
So, I set out to come up with a way to merge the quad style master point and the equallette. In the end the solution was pretty simple, but it took me a couple of months with fussing with my cord to figure it out.
SOLUTION: the triplette. Triple up your cord and tie two overhands near the middle, then configure like the equalette using clove hitches.
PROS over equalette:
improved master point
no clutch effect/binding
only requires single carabiner at master point (instead of 2 for equalette)
bigger over hand knots are easier to untie
equalization/load bearing should be similar to equalette
additional anchoring possibilities with tails
CONS
same as equalette in terms of load bearing
requires untying your cord which may require a knife if your knots are welded.
the long ends may cause some confusion if not integrated into anchor
Some pictures of anchors all tied with 14ft of 7mm perlon...
Figure 1: The QUAD for reference (doubled up loop of cord with 2 over hand knots):
Figure 2: The EQUALETTE for reference (2 overhands and 4 clove hitches):
Figure 3: The TRIPLETTE (2 overhands and 4 clove hitches)in same scenario as EQUALETTE above:
Figure 4: Tying the TRIPLETTE
step 1...
Figure 5: step 2...
Figure 6: step 3...
Figure 7: TRIPLETTE in 3 anchor scenario. It's important to leave quite a bit of tail to be able to move the big overhands left or right to do this:
Now for the encore. The tails seem to be pretty handy if you tie figure eights in them rather than leaving them dangling.
Figure 8: advanced usage with figure eight knots
This seems to simplify tying the rig because you can "cordolette" one side and then tie the other side and throw in clove hitches (or not) on the individual piece. Here's 3 pictures describing this...
Figure 9: step one, set up tripled cord on left side (16ft piece of cord)
Figure 10: step two, cordolette left side
Figure 11: step three, tie another overhand and finish right side using clove hitch to take up slack
Figure 12: Real usage in an ice anchor with 3 cams. It was kind of weird trusting my life to something that had only existed in my brain and in my basement. It seems to work really well and I didn't die.
Whatever anchor setup you use, happy and safe climbing! I appreciate any feed back you may have.
-Craig
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Scrunch
Trad climber
Provo, Ut
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Jan 13, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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cool! I think that would be a good solution to some of the problems I've had with the equalette. That being said, I usually only use something like that in a wall situation, where you can use complicated procedures. I still build multi-pitch anchors with the rope, because I'm lazy and only use bomber anchors.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 13, 2008 - 12:22am PT
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That's pretty eloquent.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jan 13, 2008 - 02:39am PT
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You want the anchors to be loaded mostly vertical, and not at all horizontal. At 45 degrees, you have about a 1.5 times-the-load force on the anchor, because the load is pulling sideways, as well as down, and the total force on the anchor is higher.
Keep the slings long, and the angle mostly vertical. Don't multiply the forces on the anchors with an unnecessary/unwanted mechanical advantage.
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Crag Q
Trad climber
Louisville, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2008 - 09:54am PT
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Scrunch,
I was actually trying to solve the big wall dilemma of "where am I going to clip everything" when I came up with this idea. I think a webolette like Metolius and Mountain Tools sell might work nicely with this setup.
Tom,
That's a good point about horizontal vs. vertical orientation. For a vertical setup the over hand knots need to move quite a bit to one side instead of the middle, but other than the setup is the same. For purposes of show and tell, it's much easy to photograph and see in the horizontal setup. Also, that is a little shorter (14ft)than the standard length (16-18ft), so that's probably distorting the angles a little bit. Obviously, in the real world you have to work with whatever you got. It's interesting that 99% of all bolt anchors are setup horizontally in total disregard to the mathematics of physics.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Jan 13, 2008 - 03:27pm PT
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Meanwhile, a storm has rolled in, your partner is mumbling to him/herself, and Croft has lapped you...twice. Safe? For sure. Time consuming? No doubt. I'm guessing that most folks are passing on so much work, but who knows.
Thanks for the instructions.
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JohnRoe
Trad climber
State College, PA
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Jan 13, 2008 - 09:26pm PT
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I made that thing in my basement last month too! (But two strikes against me: (a) I have not taken it outside yet and (b) I did not think of the name).
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Crag Q
Trad climber
Louisville, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2008 - 10:12pm PT
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I never said it was faster. I should have listed that in the cons. The ease / complexity of setup is comparable to the equalette. Truth be told Croft is going to pass me twice before I even finish the first pitch and get my cordolette out.
None the less, the complexity of any anchor system can be evaluated using the Western Anchor Numerical Knot Scale the foundations of which are laid down in the introduction to Ashely's Book of Knots. Essentially, the complexity of any anchor system can be evaluated as the number of links plus the number of knots.
Huber's NIAD ascent clove hitching one bolt = 1 knot + 1 biner = 2W
quad on 2 bolts = 3 knots + 3 biners = 6W
2 quickdraws on 2 bolts = 4W
cordolette with 3 pieces = 2 knots + 4 crabs = 6W
equalette with 3 pieces and 2 lockers on master point = 5 knots + 5 biners = 10W
triplette with 3 pieces and 1 locker using figure eights on the tails = 5 knots + 4 biners = 9W
mooselette with 3 pieces = 6 + 3 = 9W (lower than I thought)
clovehitching 3 pieces = 3 + 3 = 6W (higher than I thought)
utlrabiker figure 8 with 3 pieces = 1 + 4 = 5W
A noob or less than mechanically inclined person can't assemble anything higher than a 5W unless they were a Tenderfoot in the Scouts according to my friend in the AMGA.
It's also worth nothing that for alpine climbing the scale must be adjusted for air temperature, wind velocity and cord length, but that's beyond the scope of this post.
John it doesn't count unless you post it first! I here by declare that I am the first person to tie two overhand knots in a tripled up piece of cord (ever).
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 13, 2008 - 10:26pm PT
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I think if you kept the master point (essentially the quad power point set up between two overhands) tied, then riging might be pretty quick - just tying off the placements. You'd have to have pretty lengthy arms to cover most all anchoring arrays, but I could see how this system could be quick and efficient in the right hands. The main thing is for people to keep fiddling around with the basic concept and refining it over time, letting practical experience be the guide.
JL
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Crag Q
Trad climber
Louisville, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2008 - 09:16pm PT
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Largo,
Thanks for the comment. I was curious what you might think. So far I'm finding it works best with the figure 8's in the tails and moving the overhands to balance out reaching the placements. No doubt I'll keep playing around with it since it shows promise.
P.S. Last post is tongue in cheek.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 22, 2008 - 04:04pm PT
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This is my favorite method:
No extra gear needed, fast, and reaches between widely spaced anchor points when necessary. (red rope = lead line)
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Feb 22, 2008 - 06:11pm PT
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Interesting idea, definitely seems like something that I would like to use. As for me though, I don't think I would have the time to set that up, even if I had the thing wired. If there are bolts I usually just do the cheap n easy overhand o'lette, which takes about 10 seconds total.
If your set up could be done easily and as fast as any others, I would think it would be one of the best out there. However for bigger routes, just too much time.... think simple :D
i dont climb by the way i just post on internet and have argument.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 22, 2008 - 06:47pm PT
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I enjoy and learn from these discussions - it almost makes me reach for my copy of "Belaying the Leader", which was one of the earliest engineering/physics analyses of these things.
The concern I have is that a solution like the triplette (not to be confused with the Triplets of Belleville) may be a bit complex for real world situations. That is, climbers used solely to bolts and bolt belays, seeing a triplette (or indeed some other belay anchor systems that are promoted), would either get confused and screw it up, or say "Why don't we just put some belay bolts in?" There's enough convenience bolting already IMHO. Likewise, climbers have an intuitive grasp of physics, but that's as far as many want to go. Their eyes glaze over fairly quickly. And finally, climbers tend not to practice what is preached at them - an example is the passive resistance to suggestions that they not belay/lower through rappel rings or such. (Not to mention littering...)
I'm also not sure it is wise to suggest that belays MUST be 100% bombproof. The real world isn't like that, as others have mentioned upthread, and all climbing involves risks, trade offs, and judgment. But some at least will draw the conclusion from this that belay = bolts.
As the saying goes, KISS. The first principles are that people have to know how to place, and do place, reliable redundant belay anchors. The second is that they have to be attached to them. The other aspects of setting up a good belay may be less important. Peoples' belay anchors usually fail (so far as can be told) because they pull out, or the climbers weren't well attached. Unequalized anchors and other factors may play a part, but the bottom line is:
1. Have two (or more) reliable multidirectional anchors, equalized if time and circumstances allow.
2. Make sure you're tied securely to them.
3. Belay carefully.
After that it may be details - the rate of return (stronger, safer belay) quickly diminishes in terms of the time and equipment required to do the work, and considerable judgment is required to do it well.
Certainly the triplette, and similar solutions, are the sort of thing that experienced, skilled climbers should know about - although they may not always have the time or equipment to employ them, or simply will judge that a simpler solution is acceptable in the circumstances. It may be less applicable for novice and intermediate climbers.
I've used innumerable belays over the years that didn't meet the SERENE standard, but were still quite safe. (Not all - some were terrifying.) Many of those on SuperTopo can probably say the same. We know better now, and the quality of belays has improved. But if the goal is safer climbing, education and training, and experience, may be more effective than more complex, albeit perhaps stronger/safer, belays.
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Ragz
climber
Tartarus, black hole of the internet
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Feb 22, 2008 - 07:36pm PT
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Hiker, I agree.
climbers used solely to bolts and bolt belays, seeing a triplet (or indeed some other belay anchor systems that are promoted), would either get confused and screw it up, or say "Why don't we just put some belay bolts in?" There's enough convenience bolting already IMHO. Likewise, climbers have an intuitive grasp of physics, but that's as far as many want to go. And finally, climbers tend not to practice what is preached at them...
And egos prevent even the best ideas from getting thru. I will say that there is a comfort working with what you know, but that's limiting yourself. Learning to do something automatically in a crisis jsut takes practice (Oh, there's that boring word). In regards to the length of time it takes/complexity, that's bull IMHO. A couple hours practice will have it dialed, and although I have never used it I'm sure it could be tied in less than the time it takes to place three good pieces. Folks want to rely on bolts, fine. Only climb routes with bolts. It's about being resourceful. The more tricks I know the better equipped I am. Running out of options on a climb can be a real screw in your day.
The setup looks pretty straight forward, and worth a good look.
Thanx
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Crag Q
Trad climber
Louisville, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2008 - 10:09pm PT
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Yo trenchdigger. Awesome! I don't really follow rockclimbing.com, just supertopo and parts of mountain project. It looks we hit upon the same concerns and then a similar idea. Very cool. I look forward to reading the whole thread. I think you may get win "prior art" award.
I think putting the figure 8's on a bite on the tails makes this triplette idea really fly and expands the possibilities of what this rig can do.
I agree with a couple of the posts here that it's important to keep your mind open and keep learning and thinking. There's no one system that works for everything. Some people seem to get confused about that in these anchor discussions. A big bag of tricks is a good thing to have even if you have your favorite.
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Crag Q
Trad climber
Louisville, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2008 - 10:12pm PT
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Clint, I hardly ever use that anchor. True, it's on of the most spartan and bomber and retro. But if one person is doing all the leading you can't swap out easily, there's no place for the reverso and no easy way to escape the belay in case of accidents. :-(
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 22, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
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> I hardly ever use that anchor. True, it's on of the most spartan and bomber and retro.
Well, like you said, people have different reasons for using different methods. Your method is plenty good, and I would have no problem if you belayed me on it.
> But if one person is doing all the leading you can't swap out easily,
To handle that, you can add a free biner on each anchor piece (3 in my example), and clove hitch the follower into those, with their end of the rope.
> there's no place for the reverso
I don't use one, but how about on your belay loop?
> and no easy way to escape the belay in case of accidents. :-(
I've never needed to do that in 35 years. Have you ever needed to do it?
I suppose it could be done with some effort, like adding 3 biners. That might be good enough to handle once in 40 years? If you are doing all the leading, is escaping the belay less likely to be needed?
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Crag Q
Trad climber
Louisville, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
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Clint, you make good points. However, some of my partners like to hang when following. Having a reverso setup on the anchor makes that very easy to deal with.
As for needing to escape the belay with accidents, I prefer to deck on the belay ledge and then let my partner evacuate me. That simplifies self rescue quite a bit even on a multipitch climb.
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mike
climber
I have no clue
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Feb 22, 2008 - 11:59pm PT
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Nice setup. I supose setup and breakdown speed is subjective to your available placements. Commments?
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