Holy Moses Keyhole hangers(photo tr)

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Nanook

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 30, 2007 - 12:51pm PT
A couple years ago my friend Kate took a big fall when some wire rivet hangers broke. That motivated me to start looking online for someone who would be willing to make some keyhole hangers(something I've been talking about doing for years). Up till now only foreign companies have made keyhole hangers and importing them has not appealed to retailers due to our(wall climbers) small ranks.

I emailed Theron after seeing his posts on the opensource hammer thread and he said he would be willing to make some hangers.

Make no mistake--Theron is the Man!


Soon we were testing our prototypes in the shop and up on Yosemite's walls.






Sometimes R & D is like, one step forward two steps back....Zoe sums it up



The biggest challenge in designing the hangers was deciding on a compromise between ease of use and performance: the more bent the hanger was made it easier to get on and off the rivet and also got you higher on the piece, but also produced a dangerous, outward prying action when loaded in a fall. Ultimately we decided that two sizes of hangers would work best, one that fit smaller rivets(1/4"ers to machine heads) which had a slight scoop and thus less prying nature and a bigger size for hangerless bolts and 3/8" rivets that would be stronger to resist any potential prying by the hanger.




Thankfully Theron was always ready to crank out another batch and tweak the design one more time. Much love brutha!



And bend 'em up




Before we knew it we were jumping for bigwall joy



The happy ending is that you can now buy Theron's keyhole hangers from Mountaintools.com







Here is what bigwall Kate said about Theron's hangers after climbing the Reticent:

"Thank you so much for the Rivet Hangers. They were Perfect! They fit over 95% of the rivets that we came across, a dramatic improvement over the roughly 20% success rate we had with the others[our first batch, douh!]. The narrow profile, combined with the sweeping curve, made these top notch. Additionally, the curve and hole are just right to avoid putting a "Prying" motion on the rivet."

Thanks Thanks Thanks Theron,
erik
Wrathchild

Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
Dec 30, 2007 - 12:58pm PT
Nice one Big E!

Those look sweet!

Christian
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Dec 30, 2007 - 01:00pm PT
Nice fabrication guys! For most regular folks, a carborundum rod saw blade for a hack saw frame does the trick to modify stock bolt hangers. Are you guys selling these pups to the public or is it private, reserve stock? LOL
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Dec 30, 2007 - 04:25pm PT
For sale at Mountain Tools (although page needs to be updated):

http://mountaintools.com/cat/rclimb/bolts/02bolts.htm

http://mountaintools.com/cat/rclimb/bolts/rpkeyholehanger.htm

moses KEYHOLE HANGER

The KEYHOLE HANGER is used for aid progression - where bolt hangers are missing, damaged or a string of "rivets", round head or hex head bolts cross an otherwise blank face. When clipped with a full sized oval or D carabiner the KEYHOLE HANGER is secured to the stud, given the nut or round head is in good condition and of adequate size. Made from stainless steel these sleek KEYHOLE HANGERS fetch minimum 2,500 lbf on our test machine and at 14 grams - are light enough to carry on your chalk bag biner for emergency use.

wt: 14 g / .45 oz
size: OSFM 1/4"-3/8"
strength: no rating (depends on placement) price: $5.95 ea

[Edit to add:] Theron = Theron Moses in the TR above. He posts as T Moses here.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/view_profile.html?id=462461&topic_id=460982
WBraun

climber
Dec 30, 2007 - 04:40pm PT
Nice big machinery, good close-up photos, nice hangers.

I love big machinery .......
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Dec 30, 2007 - 04:41pm PT
Cool stuff guys!
Maybe FISH will carry them? or is it a Mountain Tools exclusive?

Edit: Where did the "Moses" come from?
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Dec 30, 2007 - 04:44pm PT
I already have a lifetime supply but am glad those items are out. Without a solid and readily available keyhole hanger design, the option of using unhangered studs as a lower impact option in highly visible locations like cliff tops is nonexistent.
Australians in some areas used to rely extensively on bare studs for pro. RP made beefy keyholes just like the ones shown above to meet the demand.
James

climber
A tent in the redwoods
Dec 30, 2007 - 04:45pm PT
Erik,
Nice, you're showing your mettle.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 30, 2007 - 08:15pm PT
I made some home cut keyhole hangers with the old (thinner) SMC hangers and even designed a locking type for 5/16" studs.
The stud had a preground cutaway on the head that, when oriented correctly in the placement, required that the hanger be installed upside down and then rotated (locking it) to the standard downward position.
Even used a few of them on Archangel, including a few on ground later shared with Prodigal Sun.

Trouble was nobody seemed to appreciate that 5/16" X 1.75" studs were pretty stout. People just called them rivets and whined.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 30, 2007 - 08:24pm PT
Oh yeah. What about using oval carabiners on the "easier to place/use" hangers to raise the contact point and reduce leverage?
scooter

climber
Moss Landing CA
Dec 30, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
James- that was WAY to cheesey to post.

Erik- Watch your fingers with the heavey machinery!!!

Is that a plasma cutter???


Patrick
(you know me, we were lost in america one time)

Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Dec 31, 2007 - 12:11am PT
"MOSES KEYHOLE HANGERS"

has a nice ring to it.

got to buy me some of those.


now let's talk beaks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 31, 2007 - 03:35am PT
Theron, that does look way more fun than handles! Cool job, I'm going to order some. Hey, I'm going to dismantle my A5 for the new year and ship just the handle down to Lewis in Tenn. to see if we can get things moving again.
Prod

Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
Dec 31, 2007 - 08:26am PT
Nice shop full of toys there.

Cool TR, thanks a ton.

Prod.
SteveW

Trad climber
Denver, CO
Dec 31, 2007 - 12:47pm PT
Neat stuff--but a question from one who hasn't yet had
the pleasure to do a wall--how many of those hangers should
one carry for a wall--(sorry, I haven't looked in my
Supertopo Big Walls book for a while, and I have the older
version, so I'm not sure if my question is answered there).
Thanks!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 31, 2007 - 01:02pm PT
Kind of a broad question, I'm surprised Steve.

Totally depends on the route.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 1, 2008 - 01:19pm PT
So as not to disappoint....These days the specific gear requirements for most routes are readily available. If you are getting up on any of my routes, a half dozen keyholes for 1/4" split shaft studs will suffice and that number should handle most situations elsewhere.
The only keyhole intensive routes that I recall are mostly Porter routes, like the Trip, Shield and Mescalito, that went up during the busy seventies. No hangers is mostly the wallet talking but I have also employed them to keep the visual impact down when close to other routes.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Jan 1, 2008 - 04:01pm PT
Radical,
When you say "a rivet hanger" do you mean the cable type?
These hangers are much stronger than the cable type.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jan 1, 2008 - 04:53pm PT
Happy New Year to everyone!!! Hope ya'll get out and get some climbin' done. I got my fix yesterday at the local sandstone crag.

That second shot is absolutely horrible! What was I doing? You gotta love the cool shades I get to wear in the first pic.

The Yose Mountain Shop is also interested in carrying these little guys.

I talked to Larry at Mtn Tools and He is slammed as usual with the holidays. He will update ASAP.

Werner: You have only seen the "small" equipment. The 110 ton press isn't in the background anywhere.;)

The "Moses" is Welsh/Old English in origination. That's what I am told at least. It being my last name I am kind of attached to it (literally).

Ron: Wouldn't that raise the leverage or am I misunderstanding you?

Scooter: Yes it is a CNC Plasma Cutter that I built from a kit. It is kind of like big Legos. I heavily modified it to do other operations and bring it up to what I thought was acceptable.

Munge: Got your eamil and yes Beaks are in the works. Soon (Spring?) is all I can really say.

Healyje: Handles are high on my priority list but it is hard finding time to talk to Lewis in the East because I am in the West. I will email him a print soon. I hope that will help. Don't dismantle yours yet.

Prod: I am writing from the comp on the newest toy, a CNC punch press that is wickedly fast. Ahhh, the smell of "new" machinery!

Radical: Yes these are much stronger than cable rivet hangers. The oval loop hangers aren't too bad but the noose/butterfly cable hangers are REALLY weak. I had some tested and needless to say I don't use em anymore.

Big thanks to Erik for working on this project so much and for pursuing the original concept because he saw a friend in need.

T Moses
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Jan 1, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
proud, thx mang for the update.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 1, 2008 - 10:12pm PT
TMoses- if you are trying to fit the older 1/4" buttonheads in your product offering keep in mind that the thinest of modified SMC keyhole hangers were used by myself and others to set the clearence for a snug fit while in place. Material thicker than 3/32" may not slip into place. Just an observation.

Mighty nice shop you have, I'm envious.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 1, 2008 - 10:43pm PT
Just for grins, second in from the lower left is a prized original Dolt keyhole, the first and best available for many years.
Nanook

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
Sorry about that second shot Theron. I just changed it.

Thanks for the pics Steve. Awesome.

T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Jan 2, 2008 - 05:31pm PT
Steve: Hangers are 0.090 thick. 3/32 converts to 0.09375. So the answer to your comment is yes they will fit your routes.

Erik: I was joking about the picture. Thanks for changing it anyway.

The new hangers look a lot like the old Dolt Hangers. Dolt had a winner in the simplicity of the design.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 2, 2008 - 05:44pm PT
We have a bunch of those lower left hangers up on Beacon only with less thickness between the inner and outer edges of the clip hole - scary stuff. Mostly put up on routes by Dean Caldwell and Kim Schmitz I believe.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 3, 2008 - 07:12pm PT
Thanks for the response TMoses. That should do the trick on the clearences for old button heads. I also used the bevel headed version of the Rawl split shaft for studs. That Dolt hanger has seen some healthy falls over the years! Dolt is the probably the father of the keyhole design. Certainly the first commercially available one as of the early seventies.

Joe-Those aluminum poptop hangers were always an adventure to come accross. The thin lipped ones that you mentioned started stretching every which way from day one. I never heard about one breaking but sure saw lots of melted ones.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 3, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
The pop-tops (lower left) are Gerry hangers.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 3, 2008 - 07:53pm PT
Ron- did Gerry import or make much other hardware that you can recall?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 3, 2008 - 08:02pm PT
Steve, I free climb above skyhooks and crack 'n ups and I've yet to be able to bring myself to clip one of those damn poptops. I don't mind fooling myself, but I can't quite buy into those rascals.

Ron, now that you mention it I do remember Gerry selling those - what other gear did they sell? I think I have one of their biners but can't recall what else...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 3, 2008 - 08:17pm PT
I think that's about it, and weren't the biners just Bedayns with a Gerry batch stamp?

Gerry Cunningham of Boulder I believe.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 4, 2008 - 08:47am PT
That corresponds with my recollection. Strange that those guys would choose to float the highest liability items with little other product line behind it. The Gerrytube was the pinnacle of that outfit's product line. LOL

I have never seen a Gerry biner. Show and tell?
WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2009 - 09:03am PT
Bump for hardware and cool machinery.

Too much talk and paper talk and not enough real results in our world.

Here's to you who actually produce ......
Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Apr 11, 2009 - 09:17am PT
I'm curious why you didn't make 'em like the SMC or Leeper 'folded' design which wouldn't put any outward prying moment on the rivet? I realize it would mean a slightly larger hanger but it seems safer. Also, if you're not leaving 'em why not use regular steel at 1/4 the cost?
Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member
Apr 11, 2009 - 09:20am PT
Bump because this is the first time saw this... very cool!

I love the machine shop trip report. (Although machine shop is probably not the right word for that?) I wish that my business involved all those cool toys and a big warehouse and not just sitting in front of a computer...

Thanks for the initiative Nanook and the skills and follow through by Theron! I just bought a key Keyhole Hangerand Cam Hook from Mountain Gear and I am psyched to try them out.
Mike.

climber
Apr 11, 2009 - 10:43am PT
Bump for T Moses's initiative, follow through and cool wares. Nice stuff, Theron.


I have to toss a word out about the PFH-style rivet hanger designs like the ones you replicated (the short, angled ones). That design inherently puts a lot of outward force on a rivet. It also pulls downward from the furthest point from the rock. I clued into this after Gabe ripped two 20 year old machine head rivets on Aurora. Another of the same rivet held the 30-something footer, which was rigged with the longer style hanger (similar to your long ones). I imagine this angled hanger design was originally intended for use on a bolt in a threaded sleeve.

Yes, Gabe is not a small guy, and the rivets which failed were but two. I'm not positive if the rivet which blew in the fall was PFH-style hangered, but definitely the one that failed under body weight was. It is very curious to me that the rivets were fine for probably a couple dozen (more?) ascents before one failed under body weight.

FWIW...
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Apr 11, 2009 - 10:58am PT
How did such a great thread disappear into oblivion in just a few days? I missed it the first time - I'm guessing I was underground.

Those rivet hangers look SWEET! May I please put a couple of each on my Wish List, along with the revamped Russkies and one each cam hook?

As I've said repeatedly, Theron Moses makes GOOD STUFF.

[Her nickname is Batgirl, not bigwall Kate. I thought you guys knew this! Bigwall so-and-so's are a dime a dozen, but there is only ONE Batgirl.]
Nanook

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
Yeeeeeeeah!

Wowzer time flies. Hard to believe that Theron cut out our first prototype hangers in the fall of '05. Thanks for staying with it bro.

Are these in the Yose Mt. shop yet?

Mike--I saw your notes about Gabe's fall on an ancient keyhole hanger thread while we were designing these hangers. Your thoughts led me to talk to some engineers about the design which then shifted our focus to a less bent, more scooped hanger. so Thanks.

The landscape/yoga picture is right near Theron's house in Paso Robles. Very fun spot to visit.

best
e
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Apr 11, 2009 - 09:45pm PT
Machine shop would be the right term for most of what you see. We are really considered a high speed metal stamping shop. The machine shop portion is basically used for maintence on the big (55-110 ton) punch presses.

Hangers in the tumbler right now:



Mike.

climber
Apr 11, 2009 - 10:44pm PT
Thanks for that info, Erik.

If I had me druthers I'd be sporting those long droopy ones in sizes to fit 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8 inch shafts. Guy's gotta dream...

Keep rocking it, Theron.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Apr 12, 2009 - 03:14am PT
Holy Moses is the Man.

You've seen the pictures, and you can see what he can do.

Because he has access to the great machinery, he can create the great little pieces.

And he's really pretty good, making those sort of things.

He's the New Chouinard: I kid you not.
Nanook

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2009 - 07:34am PT
Just in case it's not clear about the two sizes.

The smaller one fits 1/4" button heads and 5/6" machine heads. So five or so of those are all you'll need for most wall climbs in Yosemite.

There are a few routes with 3/8" buttonhead rivets, like Tangerine Trip/Aquarian, where having a few of the bigger ones would be nice.


cheers
e
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Apr 12, 2009 - 08:28am PT
You can't get a better endorsement of Theron than from McTopo's Other Great Machinist, who is Tom aka Herr Doktor Doktor Professor.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Apr 12, 2009 - 08:35am PT
Cool photos. I love the big machines as well!
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
May 4, 2009 - 06:39pm PT
Any chance of doing a copy of the one on the left???


noshoesnoshirt

climber
dangling off a wind turbine in a town near you
May 4, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
Groovy.

That shop gives me a chubby
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
North of the Owyhees
May 4, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
Dude, you're scarin' me.
Oh, look! a squirrel.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
May 4, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
I vote for RP copies too.
Much less likely to leverage out the rivet.
T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
May 4, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
Honestly, it has been on my mind. Been really busy. You know: Tomahawks, Logan Hooks, Fragile Flake Hooks, D5 Hammer, second batch of Cam Hooks (micro, narrow, wide), current batch of Rivet Hangers, etc...
Nanook

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2009 - 10:54pm PT
Huh? The RP style leverages the rivet out less than Holy Moses hanger?

The engineers I talked to said that the leverage would be a function of the distance the clip-in biner is from the wall when weighted, and that the closer the biner could be to the wall the better. Did I get something wrong there?
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
May 4, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
No, you got it right.
With the RP hangers, the biner hangs flat against the rock like a standard bolt hanger, but the other types make the biner hang at a 90 degree angle to the rock, increasing the leverage on the rivet.
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