A Dog's Life

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anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Mar 16, 2016 - 05:47pm PT
Hey Bushman, my cat Rolo is diabetic and I give him insulin injections. I suggest getting a blood glucose meter so you can test at home.
I had to have a curve done a while back at his old vet's office and they gave me a little chart to use when adjusting his dosage.

He's been through a lot but he's still kicking around. He has lost a lot of weight over the years and is quite boney, but I am not sure if that is just because of the diabetes or a combination of diabetes and old age (he's about 16-17).

I know he's not a dog, but similar situation, same work that needs to be done, just on a different animal.

Good luck.

Edit:
Question for Aya: do you think the whole "grains are bad" with regards to cat food is legit?
Aya K

Trad climber
Boulder, CO!
Mar 16, 2016 - 06:25pm PT
I do not think that whole grains are bad for cats, per se, but barring any other complicating factors, I always recommend they go on a low carb canned diet, typically grain free. Cat and dog (and people) digestive systems are not the same. However, there are certainly instances where diets containing grains can be appropriate for cats (and/or conversely, low carb, high protein diets are not appropriate). Even my own two cats are now on a diet that contains a certain amount of corn, because being on a grain free kibble had them constantly forming urinary crystals, and because I'm too busy/lazy to feed them canned (yup, veterinarians are terrible pet owners, too)

Also, with regards to diabetes, it can actually be quite different to manage between cats and dogs, as it often tends to have different etiology and complicating factors (essentially, the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes, although this is not strictly accurate). Diet plays a MUCH bigger role in managing it in cats than it does in dogs.

Also - diabetes, if managed, should not make your cat lose weight and become bony. Neither should "old age". My money would be on a concurrent illness or less than well regulated diabetes (although if you're doing regular glucose curves at home and they're appropriate, this is less likely)
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
Mar 16, 2016 - 08:37pm PT
I really am torn, betrayed by the vet I saw and not wanting to place my trust in a new vet, a stranger whose first priority will be business. I'll have to think about this for awhile.
Aya K

Trad climber
Boulder, CO!
Mar 16, 2016 - 09:15pm PT
Your first priority should be your dog. If you try to treat its diabetes yourself, it's not, no matter how you try to justify it to yourself.

Find a vet you trust and who will work within your constraints. If that means you have to spend $50-$100 (no clue what an average office visit in your area costs) a few times for office visits until you find one, that's money well spent. Your average cost will likely be around $500 - $1000/year on medications, vet checks and necessary testing so this cost is minimal in comparison for the benefit you will gain from having a professional with training guide you. DR. GOOGLE CAN NOT MANAGE A DIABETIC DOG... especially one that's already had a DKA crisis.

If you've "fired" your current veterinarian, does this mean you're not going for a followup urine culture and sensitivity (or at the VERY least a urinalysis) after you've finished the prescribed antibiotics? How will you know if her UTI is gone? YOU NEED A VETERINARIAN.

I mean, you already know what a single DKA hospital visit cost you - and to be honest, depending on how sick she was from her DKA, $1000 does not necessarily seem exorbitant in an urban area - that would be downright cheap in NYC. Probably about on par with what it would be here in Boulder, if there were multiple sets of bloodwork and a urine culture. The cost of the antibiotic? Likely due to the pharmaceutical industry jacking up the cost for the hospital - I mean, for example, I used to be able to prescribe a course of doxycycline for a lab with lyme disease for about $15. Overnight, that shot up to around $300 a few years ago. Just recently it's started to come back down again. It's unlikely your older veterinarian's fault.

I get it. You had a bad experience with the veterinarian's office, and didn't trust their recommendations. That is an excellent reason to not go back. But that is a terrible reason to deny your dog the care it needs and deserves. This not an "I need to think about this awhile" issue. Your dog may not have "awhile" for you to "think" about something that has a very clear answer.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 16, 2016 - 09:23pm PT
Man am I glad my dog and I have a good vet. No BS, highly skilled. Max actually likes going there. After reading these recent posts I feel blessed.
Aya K

Trad climber
Boulder, CO!
Mar 16, 2016 - 09:29pm PT
I do not have a dog with T2D but I have a suggestion: Between 8-10 am every morning spend perhaps 30 min. to 1 hour with Emma outside. Make sure she gets sunlight on her coat and into her eyes for some of that time.

I'd like to point out that 1. dogs don't really get type 2 diabetes and 2. I assume you're making the sunlight recommendation for vitamin D supplementation. Dogs do not synthesize vitamin D from sunlight so this is irrelevant anyhow.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 16, 2016 - 09:45pm PT
hey there say, bushman... just stopped by to see how things were going ...

wow, aya, so many things, that need to be done...

i hope this can somehow work out for him, oh my...

and anita--did not know that, about your cat...
sounds like you are keeping up with it, pretty well, though...

Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
Mar 17, 2016 - 04:06pm PT
I've been saving this up for awhile;

Today I canceled my physical therapy appointment for my lower back and my knee, I canceled my chiropractor appointment for my lower back, and I put off picking up my prescription medications for myself for the next month for high blood pressure, arthritis and high cholesterol. The money I save by doing all that will go towards paying to take Emma to a new vet.

We have an appointment for a consultation and office visit with the new vet on Monday. The next day they will do the glucose curve for her also. I went down and got all of her medical records from the old vet to give to the new vet. I might be a bit more reassured after my first office visit and treatment. The staff has also assured me that after an initial glucose curve, the vet will help me learn to do glucose curves at home to save money.

I have good reason to be skeptical about humans and their professions. I've been walking this planet for near 60 years and have not had my skepticism for human creatures elevated by all but a handful that I've met. Dogs on the other hand, for the most part, are quite stellar individual's. I have often wondered who has been the most domesticated, people or the animals that they attempt to dominate.

Slavery being what it is, some people have pets before they have children as part of their training to care for future children. Other people have animals to enslave and abuse as a kind of training for enslaving and abusing people. This seems to be a natural instinct for many of our God-fearing brethren.

I really don't understand how a person could insinuate that I don't care about my pets without knowing much about me. I have good reason to be jaded and skeptical about doctors, insurance companies, health care corporations, and pharmaceutical companies, the same insurance companies, health care corporations, and pharmaceutical companies that some doctors mistakenly believe are paying their salaries. Ultimately it's all of us who are footing the bill.

I've been dealing with my wife's poor health (also some physical problems of my own) and we have been fighting with doctors and insurance companies for years, so it's not that far-fetched for me to suspect that there's a lot of corporate influence over physicians. I reserve the right to hold suspect the care that some doctors and vets would give humans and pets, and I believe that this care is often compromised by their bottom-line, or profits.

It rubs me the wrong way when people, doctors, veterinarians, or staff try to guilt you into one treatment or another. I've also had to smile and take it when doctors have insulted us by acting like we wouldn't understand the medical jargon when we've asked questions about the details of a procedure, or they've refused to take the time to explain it. Or they've said they would refuse to treat us if we didn't sign a release granting them the right do whatever they wanted while we were under anesthesia if they so deemed it was necessary to go ahead and take the other leg, or a bladder, or a colon without our consent. Or they've acted like they were not going to treat us if we didn't follow this rule or that one, or if we didn't like what they charged, or if we disagreed with a treatment.

My wife had lymphoma five years ago and had major surgery, chemo, and radiation. She has been cancer free since then, but she also has autoimmune disease of the liver, and inflammatory joint disease as a symptom along with with diabetes. For the past several years she has taken some real hits to her health. One of the drugs they used to treat her liver had many side effects, one of which was lymphoma. We don't have proof, but we are pretty sure that's how she got the cancer. In any case her current liver doctor has been pushing her for the last year to go back onto the same medication with the cancer causing side effects to treat her liver illness. What the Frak!

We refused to let her take it and so she has been taking lots of other alternatives. Regardless, he keeps bringing it up and she just keeps telling him no. I just want to reach out and strangle him but there's no other liver specialist that she can see that the insurance covers in all of Northern California.

So needless to say I have a pretty jaded and militant regard for anybody that isn't a good friend or family member these days. Most politicians, insurance company CEOs, corporate executives, unscrupulous contractors, pedantic government regulators, and even some doctors are all pretty high on my list of offenders.

I love my pets dearly and if you want to question that, well, whatever. Last summer when Emma had kidney failure the veterinarian said, after five days of hospitalization, that because she wouldn't eat it was time to talk about end-of-life decisions. She said that the disease would cause her body to just start shutting down and she would go onto a coma from the dehydration and malnutrition, and then she would die.

But they were suggesting that I begin taking her to more specialists and to UC med center at great expense beyond what we had already committed to financially to try and save her. They only wanted to try and figure out what the cause was for the kidney failure, but were not advising us as to how I could better help her recover. As I saw her there in the vet's little kennel getting weaker by the day I finally said enough is enough. I was the one who finally decided to take her home and treat her myself for two weeks with subcutaneous fluids, TLC, and my puppy cure all (boiled chicken, rice, and cottage cheese). I became her doctor, and between Emma's will to please me and my stubborn unwillingness to see her slip away, we saved her life.

Lately, between taking care of my family and my dogs, trapping skunks and possums, doing equipment repairs, trying to run a small business and earn a living, recover from foot injury, knee injury, and back injury, and trying to keep up with my property it has been taking up all of my time, energy, and money. I've had to give up all my hobbies for a while and we haven't been on vacation for over five years.

Sometimes the definition of 'doctor' isn't always determined by the years of study, frat parties, and a signed stamped piece of paper stuck in a fancy frame and hung up on the wall.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 17, 2016 - 07:30pm PT
hey there say, bushman... say, thank you so much for sharing... it is risky to our inner self, to open up and share, but you know:

it makes for more interaction and understandings, in the long run...

i surely understand what you are talking about, due to a few things i have seen, as to dentist... and, due to a lot that i have seen from the families of my friends, in various areas of the states, here...

i know it sounds 'like not much' but, it is sincere:

hang in there, and hold your trail firm, for you, your wife and dog/s...
and family...


pray and do what you heart tells you is best--check with folks, when you can, and 'do what you know' to do, then...


god bless...

am sending you an email...
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 22, 2016 - 05:11pm PT

I'd like to point out that 1. dogs don't really get type 2 diabetes and 2. I assume you're making the sunlight recommendation for vitamin D supplementation. Dogs do not synthesize vitamin D from sunlight so this is irrelevant anyhow.

i guess I need to explain further. Our dogs are suffering from many of the same ailments as ourselves because we subject them to the same general etiological factors. Several of these primary factors are at work here:
1) Dogs are subject to non-native EMFs overexposure as a consequence of modern living, especially indoors. EMFs are present wherever electricity is used.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=emf+effect+on+health&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyvLrgsdXLAhUY6mMKHfsrAqgQgQMIGTAA

2) Exposure to man made light (blue light) from artificial lighting ,televisions and computer screens has deleterious effects on dog's circadian biology. Researchers are starting to discover the profound effects circadian mismatches have upon the health of humans and animals. Photo biology, optogenetics, etc., have come a long way since the pioneering days of John Ott.
Problem is that even if you are aware of blue light toxicity and scrupulously wear blue blocker glasses after the sun goes down--there are no such glasses for Fido.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side

And then there is the sticky problem of grain consumption--for a carnivorous animal evolutionarily fashioned by millions of years of meat consumption.
Plants can't run away from things that want to eat them. Some of those plants, like grains, evolve methods to discourage being eaten. Most of those strategies involve biochemical deterents aimed primarily at small animals. One of those deterents is gluten. When larger animals eat grains these "anti-nutrients" cause mostly under-the-radar effects ( unless you suffer from Celiacs disease).
Over the course of a cereal eating lifetime these substances have an erosive effect upon the intestinal tract, eventually, amongst other things, resulting in stuff getting into your body that doesn't belong there: such as intact proteins that are recognized as invaders by an exhausted immune system .

I say that if you want to habitually give your carnivorous dog grains --make sure he has at least a couple of million years of adaptive genetic predisposition to consuming plants containing a formidable arsenal of anti-nutrients.

I'm going way longer than I wanted. My original advice to Bushman is a "no harm/no foul/no cost". So he spends an hour with his dog in the sunshine? Or maybe he biohacks his dog away from grain for a couple of weeks to note an improvement. Or maybe he ignores me altogether.



https://www.facebook.com/drjackkruse/?fref=nf


Edge

Trad climber
Betwixt and Between Nederland & Boulder, CO
Mar 22, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Mar 22, 2016 - 07:15pm PT
DMT- Love that photo of Dancer

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 23, 2016 - 07:11pm PT
My Eva in Sedona, AZ.
Aya K

Trad climber
Boulder, CO!
Mar 23, 2016 - 07:30pm PT
I'm going way longer than I wanted. My original advice to Bushman is a "no harm/no foul/no cost". So he spends an hour with his dog in the sunshine? Or maybe he biohacks his dog away from grain for a couple of weeks to note an improvement.

Or maybe he takes your "advice", thinks it is going to fix his dog and he doesn't get it the medical care it needs and the insulin it needs and it dies. Stranger things have happened.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Mar 24, 2016 - 07:54am PT
Lucas loved exploring the crannies beneath the massive boulders at Obed. I really kept an eye on him and kept ruining his fun by calling him out. I was worried he would come upon a snake den. Timber Rattlers and Copperheads - may be a bit early to have them out, but nonetheless. He would promptly back off and come when I called, but always with a look of "WTF?" n his eyes.
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
Mar 24, 2016 - 08:55am PT

Emma and I went to see our new 'Country Veterinarian' Monday. We are very happy with him. He has a very loud voice and yelled at me about all manner of medical malfunction for about an hour, examined Emma, and showed me how to do my first glucose curve. We upped her insulin to 10 units twice a day and Saturday I do her first full glucose curve, and collect a urine sample for him. After near an hour of him yelling I noticed how he smiled as he loudly discussed Emma's treatment. I started smiling at him and I began cracking up, and said sorry he was just hitting my humor button. He said that was good.

To get her urine sample, I built a special ladle for catching her urine while she walks along on a leash, a cup stapled to a long stick. She likes to trail her pee around in about a 100 yard U pattern through the yard and it's pretty hilarious. Emma is high maintenance and weird in just about every way, the strangest dog and first girl dog I've had, or maybe I just have that effect on girls. Luke is quite normal by comparison.

The vet basically said that Emma is not just a pancreas with four legs. He will do full blood work once a year, and I should do the glucose curves at home if done properly. He prescribed more antibiotics for her UTI and I'm bringing him a urine sample Saturday for follow up. He understands that I am capable of treating the dog with his supervision, though he is not cheap, he tries to help his patients families save money by not doing unnessesary procedures or tests. I will try to explain more on his prognosisis and treatments later as I learn more from him about them.

Ive been going through a few bumps this year and last, and decided in my last post to vent. Aya, I've taken your advice to heart as well as your's, Ward, and Emma thanks you both for it.

Neebee, you have been very supportive, kind, and thoughtful in your email and post. Thank you.

-Bushman out
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Mar 24, 2016 - 10:35am PT
Bushman, I'm so glad things are looking up for you and Emma !

It's amazing what a change of vets will do sometimes.

I drive four hours from Colorado to Wyoming to take my dogs to a vet I like.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 24, 2016 - 12:37pm PT
hey there say, bushman... was just checking up here...

whewww, so very glad there is a way for this to work out now...
and a good vet...


say, this is fun to read:
To get her urine sample, I built a special ladle for catching her urine while she walks along on a leash, a cup stapled to a long stick. She likes to trail her pee around in about a 100 yard U pattern through the yard and it's pretty hilarious. Emma is high maintenance and weird in just about every way, the strangest dog and first girl dog I've had, or maybe I just have that effect on girls. Luke is quite normal by comparison.

a quote to remember, :)


thank you for the kind, note, here, too...

prayers, going out, too... for emma your ol' homestead, there...
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 24, 2016 - 01:44pm PT
jstan & Happie, both,

ewgh, sloppy seconds, n' thirds used smoking' duck!

I just hope ya' both get a rash, Too Soon To soon Too.

you think that it might be nice to give the - flying' smoked duck liver pate, the foie gras, a rest? )8~D(
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 24, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
Or maybe he takes your "advice", thinks it is going to fix his dog and he doesn't get it the medical care it needs and the insulin it needs and it dies. Stranger things have happened.

Alright look, I frequent a couple threads in which Bushman is a regular contributor over the last 2 or 3 years and therefore have gained a view of him enough to realize he would never take my advice in the erroneous context you have suggested, namely, by mindlessly assuming I have meant that he not follow the normal treatment prescriptions, given the current state of his dog's health .I did not imply nor specifically state this and you have therefore misrepresented my posts.

Get your head out of your ass over this subject.
If you would like to debate the science involving any assertions I have made then you are free to do so over on the "What is Mind?" thread , or somewhere else. This dog thread is here for people to post photos and general info as regards their pets.Not a troll platform.

In this regard I made a mistake in posting my last post and beg the indulgence of all the regulars here.lol

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