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bestbefore
climber
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Dec 12, 2004 - 11:36am PT
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If I might ask a quick practical question, how exactly was the crime in question (the Chicken McRivets on LIA) actually committed? I know nothing about the pitch is question, but I do know how hard it is to drill in the middle of a free lead. Do the chicken bolts start up straight off the belay? Are there hook placements from which to hang? Or is there some Better Way of drilling an 5.10 r/x pitch?
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 12, 2004 - 01:27pm PT
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DMT, nice flame dude, and for your sake, I hope it was just that. You sound somewhat intelligent and should understand the obvious meaning behind my statement.
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 12, 2004 - 02:14pm PT
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One more note Karl, offset aliens, HB offsets, and all other pro like that was designed to protect existing or blown pin scars which I am sure you are well aware of. Nailing did occur on the FA's of El CAp and yes, some routes like The shield are blown to sh*t. We can't go back and fix it and don't think we should if we could. Examples like that should be kept around for climbers to see so we can develope a higher ethical standard to not repeate the destruction. For the record, I am not anti nailing. There are times it just has to be done. But modifying placements, nailing on free sections, and nailing for upward progress is ludicrous.
What pete did on LIA is just beyond me and I wonder how he can keep showing his face around the valley when he not only condones such practices he claims it as his 'Better Way'. A better way to f*ck it up for us all more like.
If we don't take ownership of our actions and realize that we do have an impact on the routes we climb, all routes are going to be destroyed eventually.
Remember when two germans were nailing up on Spaceshot back in '98. Those morons f*cking destroyed part of the lower pitches because they thought it was ok for the ascent. Hmmm.....C2 definately means bringing a hammer and a pin rack in german I guess.
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ground_up
Trad climber
portland, or.
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Dec 13, 2004 - 12:45am PT
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You don't know what'ya got till it's gone....
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Loom
climber
the bathroom
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Dec 13, 2004 - 01:24am PT
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Pete is that you?
In the past half hour someone has bumped and deleted their posts on 13 threads to move them up above this one.
(edit)
Maybe someone is trying to re-bury the old "anti-war crowd . . ." threads, but those were brought back up in the same cowardly way. If you want to dredge up an oldie you should leave a post, and if you're into censoring threads or altering routes you should have your knuckles broken.
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Loom
climber
the bathroom
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Dec 13, 2004 - 01:46am PT
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bump
hey, chickensh;t, speak up; quit anonymously bumping the threads as$h0le.
bump again
(edit) I've got better things to do with my time cockroach.
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Kevin
Social climber
Oak-town
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Dec 13, 2004 - 10:55pm PT
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how close are them bolts on LA now any-hoo
can I aid the pitch now?
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ground_up
Trad climber
portland, or.
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Dec 13, 2004 - 11:25pm PT
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talking to me?....hell no i ain't P....R U kiddin me?
check my pro...bro
I was sayin...ya don't know what ya got...
Like anyone else who has climbed El Cap, and felt purdy damn honored to top out...(I've only done two routes) I'm surprised any of you locals would let his sorry ass on the wall...if people who lack the sack to do a route start pulling that crap...seems it pretty much screws the rest of us who respect the big stone. no, i ain't pete
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 14, 2004 - 12:37am PT
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The Chicken Rivets Erik Sloan placed on Skull Queen and other routes piss me off just as much as Petes. Mostly because they are trade routes that I can actually climb. whats the point of a Chicken Rivets on easy climbing?
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2004 - 01:02am PT
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the sad truth is that the pete-slander has become both the most entertaining and the most informative reading on ST...
yawn
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bigwalling
climber
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Dec 14, 2004 - 01:12am PT
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Erik, is a mad bolter that is out of control. He has done some good but lots of bad! It makes me sick! Adding bolts makes is so wrong, it shows no respect of those who have gone before you. I'm up for replacing the F.A. anchor bolts and really bad rivets, but not this 3/8 bolt ladders, that is wrong. I was happy that the route I did this summer still had some normal rivets on it. I hate clipping big bolts on an aid pitch. It's like sport aiding.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 14, 2004 - 01:42am PT
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well then don't do Skull Queen.
I have to say that I liked it more then the South Face or the Prow though, better top out.
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rrrADAM
climber
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Dec 20, 2004 - 01:47pm PT
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Just curious... Was the rivet used when Pete screwed up and broke his foot while practicing his "better way" placed by him ??? If so, then how ironic, EH ???
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 20, 2004 - 03:22pm PT
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hmm... thread just got bumped.
Adam, no the rivits are not responsible (via karma) for his broken ankle. But then, what's the diff? When your karma sucks.... it sucks.
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Dec 20, 2004 - 07:55pm PT
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Sorry to f*#k with this accusing thread that "I" myself participated in but I have gotten Peter's side of the story and he said that the rivets were already there. And i researched into this and yes the rivets were new....but i sh#t you not i am very convinced that it was a german party of three that i saw bailing off up there early May 2003. We saw them as they were Rapping off of pitch 6 just above "The Bay of The Pigs" . Now im not hundred percent sure, they could of chose the 5.8R variation.
There are two reasons why this makes much more sense.
The first is ive seen a group of Koreans put extra bolts up on Dinner ledge to rack gear on. I saw a huge group of Danish guys pound pins in on the prow. Those Korean guys nailed the entire route of SpaceShot in Zion back in '98. So i think it is a much higher possibilty that the other team drilled not Pete.
The second is why would you spend hours and energy putting up a ladder of rivets when you can make two 5.8 moves to easy 5.7 and be to the belay in 35 mins? I think pete has the common sense to know that. Plus his story sounds pretty accurate to me.
ty
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 20, 2004 - 08:01pm PT
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the canadian assassin doesn't step out of his aiders.
oh, and excuse me while I note that though the CA has posted just today on this site no mention was given to these rivits. If they ain't his it ain't hard to simply say "nope, fux you guys, not mine". But the bottom line is if they are his it would be one in a series of routes he rivited down to his level. History repeats itself, they say....
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 20, 2004 - 09:12pm PT
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give it up already...jeeze
if you read Chads TR about WSR he says he climbed up to that rivet himself before Pete arived and fell.
How do you know the rivets on LiA are his?
Don't make false accusations about someone that you have no info to back it up or no proof. it just makes you sound like an as#@&%e. both ammon and nature
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Dec 20, 2004 - 09:59pm PT
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Lambone, yep..... it does make you look like an A-Hole to make accusations without proof. That's why I was vague about telling everyone who did it (kind of).
The truth is, I know exactly who did it but wanted that person to admit it. That will never happen, so it would be nice if someone would just pull the rivets and patch the holes.
Tyler, there are only two rivets directly off the belay to get past some slippery slab moves. It would have taken 5-10 minutes each….. 20 minutes max for both rivets. The 5.8r to the right is just as hard and scary as the direct 510+r….. at least that’s what I thought.
The bottom line is:
I wanted people to be aware that they are there AND the offending rivets should be removed.
Cheers, Ammon
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 24, 2004 - 03:55am PT
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Ammon and I exchanged a few emails at the beginning of December. I told him I would be away caving in Belize among other things from December 3 to 11, but evidently he forgot this, and assumed my lack of response to be something other than my being away.
I resumed correspondence with him when I returned on or about December 13, and answered the three emails that he had sent me while I was away. In fact, I answered them in great detail. As of my writing this post, Ammon has not answered any of my emails, so either he hasn't gotten them, or he has chosen not to respond. I had hoped that this could be resolved in person rather than on an internet forum, but since it's been two weeks, I now write this post.
I soloed Lost In America from June 12-19, 2003, spending seven nights on the wall plus a day or two fixing. Rather fast for me, actually. I don't recall seeing anyone on the wall above me. It was my seventh El Cap solo and my 23rd El Cap route, and included my 190th El Cap bivi. I'm up to 26 El Cap routes now and somewhere around 230 bivis, not counting base and summit bivis. A bit fewer than I might have hoped by the end of this year, but better than things might have turned out after busting my leg this spring. I was awful darn glad to wobble over the summit of Son Of Heart this fall! As Ahnold would say, "I'll be bahck....."
I rated the route NTB - pretty moderate, thankfully. I chose the route because I had just completed Bermuda Dunes, and a few of the PDH pitches on that wall had scared the piss out of me, so I was looking for something a little more mellow, as I had pretty much used up my "fear quotient" for the spring season. Lost In America fit the bill. I really enjoyed the route because I wasn't as scared as I usually am.
I found pitches ten and eleven to be the cruxes - pretty much full-on NTB. I took one pretty decent lob off of the Fly or Die pitch when my talon hook popped out of the [presumably] chicken bathook hole. I hate bathooks! I only used the hole because I was too lazy to clean out the deadhead and place my own new head. I was later told that people on the ground heard me fall - the characteristic rattle of gear and my trademark scream of terror, "Fuuuuuuuuuuck!" I hate falling, too. I'm a total wuss.
Anyway, after that little episode, I spent the time to clean out the deadheads and placed three of my own heads, thus obviating the need to use the bat hole. Ivo had told me I would be scared, and Ivo was right. There were a few rivets on the Fly or Die, perhaps replacing old RURP placements, I can't remember for sure. Maybe some of the RURP placements are beaten out to heads now[?] The pitch also sported a shiny new 3/8" bolt, and I assumed whomever had placed the bolt had also placed the rivets on the bottom of pitch 6.
When I arrived at the top of 5 on the afternoon of Saturday June 14, 2003, I was surprised and somewhat relieved to see a couple of new-looking rivets directly above the fifth belay on the sixth pitch. It wasn't my plan to use them, since the McTopo shows a 5.8R variation to the right. So I climbed into my free climbing shoes [and out of free climbing retirement] and had a look. I hand-traversed about fifteen feet right of the belay, ran out of ledge, hand-traversed five feet back left, ran out of strength while trying to pull the rope back through my Grigri one-handed, and then took a ten-foot pendulum lob into the side of my pigs.
Ouch.
I hate free climbing. That's why I solo big walls. I figured that even *I* could climb 5.8, and if I could figure out where the hell to climb, maybe I even could. I have *no* idea where this so-called 5.8R variation to the right is, but I sure couldn't find it! I figured it was good beta because not only was it on the McTopo, but Chris Van Leuven [Spaz] had told me the same. But I couldn't find any 5.8 climbing, nor could I see the bush shown on the McTopo. It seemed pretty hard to me.
This left me with no other option than to go straight up, which to me looked like the Better Way. I hungrily and greedily clipped those rivets and stood on them, and was bloody glad they were there, thus sparing me the fear of making a couple scary hook moves with factor 2 potential. I didn't drill the two rivets, but I sure as hell clipped 'em. Hell, yeah - I only look stupid. But I have no idea who placed them, or when. Perhaps it was as bulgingpuke suggests above. So sorry to disappoint y'all, but it t'waren't me. You'll have to find someone else to lynch, however you'd best be certain you have your facts straight before you [try to] condemn anyone in absentia.
Note: If the rivets weren't there, I would have "prusiked down" some hooks for pro, which I routinely do while soloing - factor 2 falls are unacceptable. I figured out this little trick when I ran out of duct tape while soloing Zed-Em. Since the lead rope is stationary, you can use a long prusik [really a Klemheist] to hold your hooks in place for pro. This is why I usually climb with at least three sets of hooks. Remember to use a Screamer when you do this. It works, incidentally.
I didn't have my "tuning forks" from Bermuda Dunes with me on Lost In America, and at any rate I do not own a patch kit, nor do I even know what it consists of, but I think you're supposed to use a mixture of epoxy and rock dust to fill the hole, aren't you? However it would have been hypocritical to the max to have clipped the rivets, and then later removed 'em, so I just left the things there. After kissing them, of course. I made a couple more hook moves above them to gain a fixed beak, and from there things got a bit easier.
Anyone who knows anything about me, and about the history of free climbing in Ontario, would know I have never placed a lead rivet or bolt, except in one single instance, which is well documented [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/ascent/index.php?AscentID=349"]here in my solo ascent of Native Son[/url] - I put the rivet on the second pitch to replace the flake that ripped which caused my fall onto the duct-taped hook for pro. Any allegations that I have placed lead rivets or bolts anywhere else are unfounded and untrue.
Like the man opposed to capital punishment, yet who stands in the village square to watch the hanging, I agree with Ammon that the rivets should be removed.
Cheers,
Pete
P.S. If anyone's interested, I'd be happy to email you a copy of my Dr. Piton Super-Duper beta for this route, or for any of the others I've done. You can reach me at peterzabrok at cogeco dot ca.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Dec 24, 2004 - 08:04pm PT
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"The Chicken Rivets Erik Sloan placed on Skull Queen and other routes piss me off just as much as Petes. Mostly because they are trade routes that I can actually climb. whats the point of a Chicken Rivets on easy climbing?"
Hmmm, Lambone... Seems to me that there were already many rivets going through easy climbing on Skull Queen. As well as rivets less than 2 feet apart on some of the ladders. And there were bat hook holes beside the OW on that route before the 10th ascent. Anyone know if they were drilled by the FA party?
and
"BTW- All the rivets on Skull Queen were replaced with the big ones with new holes and the old ones were just bashed in with a hammer. Lame."
Ever tried cleaning well-placed Zamac rivets?
Just asking...
Brutus
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