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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 13, 2007 - 10:09am PT
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I used to wonder once in awhile, about all the time I spent teaching to rookies in the mountains, rather than being out with my hard core partners. I don't wonder anymore.
My mother just sent me an article (maybe you've seen it)where the rangers in parks are concerned about hundreds of thousands of people pouring out of climbing gyms with their new REI get-up and having no idea of how to behave at the real stones.
They actually had some quotes from a beginner talking about Cathedral Peak, who said "They need to put some signs and stuff out there, and some trash cans. They don't even clean your rocks for you out there."
This is absolutely laughable until you multiply this thinking by many thousands of people in our beloved Sierra, and ALL the other ranges. (You should see it out here in the crowded zone, and it's moving your way...)The ranger even said that back in the day climbers brought each other up through a training progression, and that the uneducated usually just walked around taking pictures. Now they are coming out of thousands of gyms thinking they are ready for the real thing. It isn't a crime to be new to a sport, but it is our responsibility to pitch in with some well placed advice rather than trying to ignore these folks.Damn, I have spent a lifetime trying to get away from signs and "stuff" and trash cans and rocks that have been "cleaned". Pay it forward man, pay it forward.
Bruce
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sketchyy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:54am PT
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Save our hobby, burn a gym
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purplesage
Trad climber
Bend, OR
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:58am PT
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I think all us old guys have problems with the flood of noobs you're talking about, and it is going to be more and more of a challenge to get away from the stuff we hate about the popularization of our sport. I started climbing in the 70's because I wanted to get away from people and rules and anything that was popular or attracted attention. Things are different now, we have to adjust.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 12:08pm PT
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Way overblown, just another "reporter" sensationalizing the news. The rangers were misquoted and are not worried - see the other ST threads on that article.
My take on the climber "explosion" in the last 15 years:
bouldering - OK, explosion is about right, but if you don't own a harness are you a climber? (I said "own", not "use", before Bachar chimes in...)
sport - more folks but not that many, more people on easier routes, more sport areas, so maybe double?
trad - fewer people on most stuff, about the same or more on the well-protected classics, my guess is about even or lower than 15 years ago (Indian Creek doesn't count since people figured out that popular IC trad is actually better protected than any sport routes...)
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 12:14pm PT
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DMT has it right. Once some climbers wanted to make a living off climbing, they needed new money in the sport.
It's basically a ponzi style set up. How many noobs do you need to attract to support one person who is already there?
Exponential growth from there.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Nov 13, 2007 - 12:29pm PT
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my gues is that %95 of the general public who goes climbing in a rock gym never actually climb outdoors.
This is based on my own numbers. We have had 7,000 people climb at our gym over the last two years, and I'd say 100 of them are regulars who climb outside.
my 2 cents
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 13, 2007 - 12:38pm PT
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I'm all in favour of teaching and mentoring novices and apprentices, in formal and informal ways. Others did so for me.
However, I take strong exception to the suggestion that climbing is a "sport". It is athletic, and sometimes even competitive, although most often the competition is internal. But it isn't a sport.
It will help you to "save" climbing if you don't call it a sport. It's an avocation. Present it as a sport, and then its treated and commodified just like any other sport.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 13, 2007 - 12:44pm PT
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The same newbies who come from the gym are the ones whose pockets help the research and development for our new toys.
And damnit, toys rule!
Albeit, having your 'secret spot' turned into an overpopulated, dog infested, trash hole is no fun either.
Toys are still awesome...
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Nov 13, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
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Mighty,
I agree, calling it a sport is like calling backpacking a sport. Sadly there seams to be a persistent push to both to add a competetive side to them, especially by the commercial interests it seems. Part of the point for me is the completely non-competitive nature of it. You either attain the summit or you don't. No points, no score, just a man and a rock.
The eco-challenge and the like I think are doing similar to hiking and backpacking. It is a huge twisting of the ideology I take to the trails when I head out for a few days.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 13, 2007 - 12:55pm PT
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I mentioned this once before, but it's worth repeating: about four years ago, while resting up before going home, a couple of young newbies came by and ask where Double Cross was located. We were sitting next to it. The fellow said that they'd just had instruction from a guide and were told that DC would be a good climb for them as their first route. I took them over to Mike's Books. We do have a problem in climbing.
Last week in RR, a young couple came by to talk to us. They'd never climbed outside a gym and wanted advice, and we gave a lot.
When the opportunity arrives, please take the time to help these kids out. If possible, take them along on an easy route and demonstrate the basics; and, most important, hammer into their sculls the good sense to start with routes in the range of minimum fifth as they learn to place secure pro. I told the RR pair to stay off the routes until they had spent time on the ground practicing gear placement in cracks on boulders etc. I always walk those I teach through my last lesson. I place gear showing how then they place it. I go through all the types of gear and lecture, lecture. This is also a good time for anecdotes about errors you've made etc. Scare them a little to pound in the seriousness of the sport they've chosen.
Further, I find passing on all this information and history a lot of fun.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 12:55pm PT
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I agree wholeheartedly with Bruce's point, that those of us who have been in it long enough to have a clue should share, teach, if you will. At the same time though, I never have a problem with crowds of newbies where I go climbing. That article is a fraud. Even in Josh, unless you are looking to do Double Cross or climb on Echo Rock on Saturday there is no one around. Especially if you are climbing harder than 5.10b...
And if it is natural beauty and solitude + awesome rock you are looking for, just get away from the roads...
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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Nov 13, 2007 - 01:32pm PT
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here's to the climbers willing to mentor and guide.
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kev
climber
CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 01:40pm PT
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As far as the sport question I'll go along with what Hemmingway said (I think it was him)....The quote goes something like this
"There are only 3 sports, motor racing, bull fighting and mountain climbing-everything else is just a game"
I started climbing 6ish years ago. I also started climbing outside-the first dozen or so times I climbed were outside. I then briefly climbed both in the gym and outside (i was week (still am but not nearly as much as 6 yrs ago)). I rarely goto the gym (I hate the crowds and often dislike the feel of the people at the gym). That said I think the gym is a great place to train and deal with the lack of friendly weather in the winter. I was prolly a noob for a while too.
You'll never be able to stop idiots from doing stupid things, and the gym makes it far more likely for an idiot to start climbing outside (don't even think about suggesting I am making a statement about all gym climbers here-please read and think logically before you even consider flaming me on the above). But you can give advice to those who ask for it and sometimes have to give advice to those who don't ask for it.
It's unfortunate but other than burning down the gyms the problem will continue, and I think that most of us wouldn't advocate burning down the gyms. I choose to solve the problem (dealing with gym climbers) differently. I now tend to goto places that are unknown to the noobs, or not accessable to the noobs, or climb stuff I wont find them on. My summer TM motto was climb what I want durning the week and climb the runout or OWish stuff on the weekend.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 01:57pm PT
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Ultimately climbing is like politics. Local.
If I were a member of the traditional climbing community in Boise I would focus on two things. Bolt removal (from historical trad routes) and education...
At least the newbie had the common sense to be impressed. That's a start.
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Outdoor Educator
Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA.
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Nov 13, 2007 - 02:06pm PT
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Lucky Me:
In August I started working as an instructor at Astrocamp in Idyllwild. We have several high ropes elements that I take students on(i.e. zipline, skycoaster, catwalk)and an indoor rock wall. I loved the feeling of being off the ground. I fell in love with the wall and soon purchased climbing shoes and began practicing on the wall a few times a week. Years earlier, I had taken a basic climbing class @ J. Tree. I remembered how much fun it was and I wanted to get on real rock again. About 4 weeks ago I had the good fortune to run into Clark Jacobs at the local bar in Idyllwild. Since meeting, we have been bouldering and climbing in J.Tree and Idyllwild, watched lots of old climbing videos, and he's given me endless instruction on equipment... all for a few beers and meals. He also took another instructor and friend from Astrocamp climbing at Suicide last weekend when I was working.
I met Zip @ J. Tree with Clark, so Zip if you're reading this thread it's the woman who was with Clark.
Clark has become a good friend and is a selfless person, an excellent teacher and a prime example of the type of person who will "Save Your Sport."
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2007 - 02:56pm PT
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Ksolem, excellent pics man!
Somebody said that the whole thing is overblown, rangers misquoted etc. There are times and places where that seems true, but believe me, there are places out here in the East where it's not the least bit overblown. I don't wanna hop up and down crying wolf, but man some of the stuff I've seen just boggles the mind.
Whoever said get away from the road, amen. That's what Tarbuster's recent pic's are all about. This spring at Smith Rocks on a weekend, an old buddy of mine wasn't too sure about hiking all the way up to Wombat for something obscure, but he trusts me. When we got up there and had a whole formation to ourselves and he saw the view from the top....nuff said.
To whoever said encourage them to start out easy, amen.I climbed recently with a girl who has put in some gym time, and she had a lot of trouble with something way easier than what she does at the gym because she had trouble finding the holds. They all "blended in" no colored tape you know.
B
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drc
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 03:51pm PT
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A few thoughts:
I've been climbing at the gym for the last few months. Working full time blows. I do pickup climbing so I've partnered around 30 different people so far. I have yet to meet someone who's gone outside more than "a few times" or more recently than "A few years ago". You'd think that the local gym is a good place to meet partners, but the internet seems to work better.
Avoiding the crowds even on super classic routes is easy. When West Crack has 4 parties waiting Crescent Arch is usually free. 80 People on Cathedral Peak? Walk another hour and do Mathes. Northwest Books busy? Left Water Crack is a good alternative. Nutcracker, start at 4pm. Regular route, start at 4am.
I love impressing the hell out of people who need handholds to climb.
kev, stop screwing around on st and get back to your super secret work.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Nov 13, 2007 - 04:58pm PT
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Roping in a bright-eyed bushy-tailed newbie on an obscure first ascent is always fun!
A far cry from the gym and will learn 'em real quick 'bout the roots of our sport... uh, I mean, passion.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Nov 13, 2007 - 06:24pm PT
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outlaw gyms, only gym climbers will be outlaws.
i think i'm ok with that.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
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Nov 13, 2007 - 07:08pm PT
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The other day I took my youngest son and some of his friends to a local gym for a birthday celebration. Now, I am not a gym fan by any measure, but it was close and his choice. Sooo...
I get to the gym and the guy tells me he has to check my belay skills before I can belay the kids. So I sit the kids down and explain the tie-in process, communication, aiming my belay, etc. just like I would in the mountains. He watches for a minute and then lets me do my thing.
We climb for a while, and some teen girl in a staff shirt comes by, sees me anchored to the supplied point and tells me "You only have to anchor when the person you are belaying weighs more than you do." I politely thanked her for her advice and replied "I'd prefer to teach these boys to always anchor so they get in the habit. If they go on real rock in the future, they need to be safe."
Her reply? "Oh, I never thought about that...I've never climbed on real rock."
Take a look around...noobs are being "taught" by teenage belay monkeys. Almost every time I have encountered noobs on their first trad climb, they don't have a clue how to build an anchor, aim their belay, or set protection.
A salute to all who take their time to share the wealth of their experience. Let's hope their charges are on the Taco 20 years from now sharing the message.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:38pm PT
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It was sweet in the 70's, the only people you would ever bump into were hardcore TM Herbert, Jay Smith or other guide book authors. The sport has too many people now adays and we have to adjust to accommadate this change. I don't like it and am slow on change, (but the medication helps). You have to step up and be responsible and make sure the gumbie to your right doesn't kill anyone. It's weird 30 years ago the ridiculous stuff you see at the crags didn't happen. I was showing a freinds wife ( 60 year old) how to climb at swan slab and the young gym climbers next to us had a sling on a tree( No biners) with the rope running through it and there buddy on belay with a figure 8 without having it clipped into a biner' or to there harness, Go Figure. So if the toprope sling didn't burn through or a loop came off the figue 8,and the guy could hold the weight with his bare hands, no one was goin to get hurt, might as well free solo the Eigerwand.
Us ol' folks need to pay attention and not allow the generations that have grown up in a soft society where everything is idiot proof to not die next to us. Not only is it bad Karma but it is a resposibility that we own( have inherited) as perpetuators of this sport we have given so much of our lives to.
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2007 - 09:48pm PT
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Just like climbers, the responses are smart and varied. You all have made a lot of good points.
I too have encountered many people in the last year and a half that don't know the first thing about the use of Trad gear. If it's a bolt or a tree, they know how to use it. Hey, we all started somewhere.
Mighty Hiker, I think I know what you mean, but.....
the definition of sport in this book here is: source of diversion/pastime, physical activity engaged in for pleasure.
The definition of avocation is: a subordinate occupation pursued especially for pleasure. hmmmm
Climbing has been referred to as a sport for as long as I have climbed, also lifestyle, game etc.
I take exception to the suggestion that changing the word to avocation is going to make all these new bodies run away, but they might have to go look it up like I did.
Your brother in linguistics,
B
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drc
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:57pm PT
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More thoughts:
At my gym, you have to send a 10b no falls, no takes, and be "real solid" in order to get your lead belay card. Granted it's a mindless upsidedown ladder and I want to see some of these staffers on Needle Spoon or Reeds Direct, but maybe we should learn from the gymies. Why not have some dirtbag administer safety tests at the popular crags on their rest days? Most of the noobs being discussed here wouldn't know that they aren't technically required to be certified to climb outside. We can start a SuperTaco beer fund to compensate these safety monitors.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:01pm PT
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Pleeze tell me that was a troll??
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:12pm PT
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No, all jesting aside...I was a guide for more years than I can remember sometimes and feel that our youth definitely are the future! I myself was mentored by some great folks and will always remember their kind words...
By the way...That's the always chic BVB on my left, ever inspired on our way to some end!
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:13pm PT
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A 10B to get your real rock climbing card...What about all those 5.9's put up by Robbins and those 5.6 chimney routes done by Harding( that have Killed people), I guess they wouldn't get their cards.....Gym ratings have no equivalent in the wilderness or even roadside craig. There's no purple tape to tell you what hold to use and no bolt to clip........Gyms were fun ( till we blew our tendons, 20 years ago) for real climbers but now the game has changed and gym climbers want to transfer their abilities to the outdoors. Good luck, us outdoor folks used to do 5.6 death approaches to do climbs on homemade gear, to do a 5.7 route, that's how we learned. If the Manzanita didn't bleed you out and the low quality homemade tube chalks didn't collapse under a fall, you were a lucky climber. The good ol' days are gone but the way we learned( by slowly pushing the grades and our abilities) kept us alive( by the grace of God at times). If you can climb 5.12 in the gym these punks are gonna think they can do Astroman, good luck.
BVB Is kinda look'in a little catholic( molestor) type in that photo dude. I won't post it anymore it might throw him off the band wagon....
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2007 - 10:33pm PT
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5.6 approaches to do 5.7 routes, man that hits close to home eh?
And the image of the manz bleeding me out too. Indeed, I was worried the first time I looked up Texas flake, and got worried on a long easy runout up high in the Needles, as an old head!
Gym vs stone. I had a friend who said he was solid 5.11 in the gym who promptly shat himself on the first pitch of New Dimensions.....following....No easy answers.
I don't think posting resting dirtbags at the bottom of routes is going to work though. HA!
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:02pm PT
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Oh well ( I've had enough to drink) let them die... Hom many 5.
4 Roper routes in the Seirra's have stymied us 10.b leaders?
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BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:25pm PT
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Clark mentoring a female climber? Laughing martini out nose. Oops, there goes my olive!
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:27pm PT
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Survival - is this the article you were referencing? From the Associated Press. ST's very own Minerals (Bryan Law) got a quote in it!! Jesse's in it too.
Best line of the article from some SF gymrat girl: ""I don't think they even clean your rocks off for you out there." ARGH!!Can't these people just stay inside their gyms please? Or get some windex and head up to Cathedral and make sure it's clean and pretty for her?
YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK, Calif. (AP) - Evidence of rock
climbing's excesses are visible everywhere around the base of a
popular summer ascent here. Dead pines lie decomposing on the
eroded rock, their roots exposed by thousands of boot soles. The
approach is marred by 40 separate trails braiding around the
granite face.
Then, there's the garbage.
In September, volunteers packed out 900 pounds of abandoned
rope, snack wrappers and toilet paper strewn around some of Yosemite National Park's most cherished crags.
Millions of Americans have developed a taste for rock climbing, a fad fueled by a proliferation of urban climbing gyms and glamorized by programs like America's Next Top Model, which recently showed its models hanging from climbing ropes. But as
neophyte rock jocks head to national parks to test their skills in the great outdoors, some are unwittingly breaking the wilderness ethic governing the sport.
Others are violating federal wilderness regulations by drilling into the bare rock face with power tools.
As the sun crested on a recent morning at Yosemite's Tuolumne Meadows, a group of regulars clipping on chalk bags groused about what they see as an influx of clueless novices, who they assumed were responsible for a heist of $1,000 worth of equipment.
"The next time I see some guy with gear that's mine at the top of the peak, I'm gonna push him off," said Bryan Law, 35, a grin spreading beneath his mustache. "Some people just don't know how to behave."
Iconic among outdoor adventurers as the birthplace of rock
climbing in North America, Yosemite's mammoth granite formations
have a singular allure for climbers eager to push the limits.
And Cathedral Peak, a 10,900-foot temple of rock rising from the sub-alpine Tuolumne Meadows, is often where newcomers start.
Rookie Ha Pham, 23, hopes to venture up it eventually, but said she was concerned the conditions she'd find wouldn't meet her standards.
"They should have signs and stuff and trash cans outside,"
said Pham, who climbs regularly in the safety of a San Francisco
gym. "I don't think they even clean your rocks off for you out
there."
Yosemite's full-time climbing ranger Jesse McGahey is on a quest to teach such newbies how to develop technical skills and outdoor ethics at the same time. McGahey, who carries his gun in a fanny pack to avoid startling hikers, prefers to educate newcomers about the wilds rather than ticket them.
But on a recent weekend, when he came across an abandoned dog tied to a tree in the middle of bear country, he felt had no choice but to fine its owner $225 as he came strolling down from the summit.
"In the '70s, people used to teach each other how to climb
outdoors," said McGahey, 29. "Now a lot of people come out of the
gym and head straight for the woods, with no idea of what they'll
find there."
Other popular climbing destinations are also struggling to keep a balance between preserving the backcountry and helping gym rats aspire to something higher.
An Outdoor Industry Association survey showed the number of
climbers grew from 7.5 to 9.2 million people from 2004 to 2005. The percentage of people climbing on an artificial wall rose 30
percent.
Many newcomers don't learn the traditional climbing style
developed in the 1960s, but instead learn in a gym, where man-made walls feature bolts every three feet.
Young climbers often start out bouldering, a ropes-free style that helps build strength, but can also leave forest floors strewn with chalk and abandoned crashpads.
"There are lots of people out cruising around the woods looking for really fun boulders to climb on," said Phil Powers, executive director of the Golden, Colo.-based American Alpine Club. "But one of the biggest concerns that we have is that gym-to-outside transition."
In Southern California's Joshua Tree National Park, boulders are riddled with holes and stakes marking climbing routes. Rangers say the problem is twofold: it alters the landscape for non-climbers visiting the park and accelerates erosion of the rock formations.
At Arches National Park in Utah, officials feared climbers would damage delicate sandstone formations, so last year they banned slacklining, a strength- and balance-building exercise that requires walking on a nylon rope strung between natural features.
They also banned climbing on any arch named on a topographical map of the park, a United States Geological Survey guide climbers follow like a Bible.
Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area, near Las Vegas, is taking a different tack. Land managers are considering placing a 10-year cap on the number of bolts and anchors climbers can wedge into the sandstone, hoping to encourage climbers to use natural protection instead of the quick approach favored by novices: drill more gear into the wall.
"People are looking for weekend escapes," said Rick Potts, the former Conservation and Outdoor Recreation Chief for the National Park Service. "Trips are getting shorter, and trips into the backcountry are getting less and less common."
McGahey approaches Yosemite's visitors - many of whom visit the park on weekend pilgrimages - his own way.
To prevent erosion near Cathedral Peak, he's working with
volunteers to block the braiding trails with dead logs. He and the nonprofit Yosemite Climbing Association recruited eco-friendly climbers to remove 21 tons of garbage throughout the park in last month's annual trash-pick up.
Each Sunday morning he offers climbers free coffee in exchange for participating in rap sessions about community responsibility.
Rock climbers don't need a backcountry permit even if they spend the night slung off the side of El Capitan, the park's famed granite monolith, so McGahey stresses leave-no-trace camping techniques.
Kay Okamoto, a Los Angeles-based urban planner who climbs at a gym during the week, soaks in all the tips she can.
"More people keep coming up here and getting stoked about going cragging," said Okamoto, 26. "What you learn about the
environment is really all in who you meet."
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BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:48pm PT
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I must be a dick. Take a precious day to teach common sense to those who lack it?
We had a copy of Royal Robbins great little book 'Rockcraft', and a sh#tload of fear. Learned, lived, never had an accident or a lesson.
Molested by BVB in '78, BH
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:51pm PT
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Did you get a St' Christopher for the molesting or just wonderful memories?
That's how the real sport developed. I guess now they just start on the easy stuff 5.11 and learn from there.
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BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:55pm PT
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Just a warm feeling. I won't say where...
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Nostrodomas
Trad climber
Visalia, Ca.
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Nov 14, 2007 - 01:19am PT
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I am very happy that I found a great teacher and mentor. Some of you might remember him from the Valley his name is Larry Zulim.
If you are reading this Larry I just want to tell you how much I appreciate the time and help, and to say thanks for dragging my ass out to the valley every week end. Kevin you to I guess....hahaha
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Nov 14, 2007 - 01:48am PT
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Whoa, Larry Zulim! Blast from the past! The Dinubian...( or was it The Visalian?)
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2007 - 08:34am PT
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Larry Zulim? Wow, serious way back machine. He was such a friendly guy, easy to hang around.
"oops, there goes my olive" "Just a warm feeling, won't say where" man you guys are cracking me up way the F out here in VA.
Yes indeed, that is the article I was talking about.
I'm not even talking about teaching these people the art of climbing so much as mentoring them in a sense of adventure and responsibility. Signs and stuff...trash cans....clean the rocks for you? Holy buckets man, to clean the rubble off some of my beautiful Chugach peaks in Alaska, you'd have to cart the whole damn mountain away!!
They need to drop some illicit sumpn' sumpin' and watch a thunderstorm on Mt. Conness...then they will begin to understand....
I've never done anything like that but I read about it in a book one time, and talked to a guy who said it worked......
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Nov 14, 2007 - 10:04am PT
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"Just like climbers, the responses are smart and varied. You all have made a lot of good points."
-Survival
I'd have to agree with this, however with due respet to everyones thoughts on the issue, I think the big picture you all are overlooking is the fact that EVERYTHING is being impacted.
Look at the increase in kayaking, backpacking, biking, hell...golf!
My thinking is that its' directly proportional to the general increase in population.
Whether its more "noobs" at the crags who (will eventually figue it out one way or another, and if not...) seem to be percieved by most of us as some kind of "intrusion", or more anglers on the waters, its a fact that there are more people.
Why not go from the gym to the out-of-doors, hell wouldn't most of us?
Maybe most of them stay indoors like Lambone suggests. Either way more people, is more impact.
How many folks climb the Captian now?
How many are in the high country?
Nothing wrong with any of it because the reality is that we'd all be/or are doing it! Who can blame us.
Nope I say blame it on a population that is increasing. And, we should deal in some way with that.
Tough problem...
DD
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Nov 14, 2007 - 10:06am PT
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Learning to teach well has been the most challenging and rewarding experience this life has given me.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Nov 14, 2007 - 10:07am PT
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Oh, and regarding the original post...
Hey, there are plenty of worthy people out there that just want to have a good time climibng. Why not help out where you can? Every one of us probably had someone that took the time somewhere along the line to give us a few pointers...eh?
Cheers,
DD
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2007 - 10:36am PT
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DD, how true. I can still remember how scared my mom was when I was 16 and a van load of long haired 21 yr olds would roll me out in my driveway with my hands all chewed up and grinnin' like a mo'fo'!!
Yeah man, I had some great teachers.
B
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 14, 2007 - 10:41am PT
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I don't think there's any onus on climbers to help gymbies transition.
If someone wants to bring an indoorsy type under their wing as a potential partner, that's their prerogative; back in the day, did you guys feel any sort of obligation to help every as#@&%e you encountered? Or did you focus your energy on the ones who had potential as a decent partner?
On the other hand, I think that gym owners/climbing holds manufacturers/fashionista outdoors clothing companies, etc....could provide valuable service(while at the same time increasing their market presence) by education the indoorsy's about life in the real world(of climbing).
While I understand that a large percentage of gym climbers will never venture outside, it still might be valuable for them to have good information available. I used to go to the 59th Street gym(NYC) and every so often they had a local guide come in and teach escaping the belay technique and entry level self rescue. That was my first learning on ascending the rope.
Tangent.... Last week in Jtree I saw a girl fall off trying to pull the roof on Aftermath in the North Wonderland..... She wasn't prepared, obviously. Flailed away trying to swing close enough to the rock to...what?....do a pull up onto the roof she didn't pull? She had no prussiks, and after a while the leader tossed an end of rope he'd fixed, and told her to batman up. Then proceeded(in very short order) to get frustrated when he didn't get any slack in her line to haul in.
I am not saying those were gymbies on an outing, but I can tell you that anyone out there getting on routes they may not be able to send should know what their options are. One should be able to get out of what they get into, and that second did not have the skills. And, if a leader is taking out people that they know won't know how to get out of crisis, then they are as#@&%es for not knowing how to help their flailing seconds.
Why NOT take on the task of education, is my question to the wholesale markets/manufacturers who are starting these folks down the path????
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Nov 14, 2007 - 11:03am PT
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Happie,
I agree with much of what you say, but as an INDIVIDUAL what can/are you (or me or the next person) doing...?
I guess I'm one of those that thinks I can't make a major impact directly on anything, but its worth my time and energy to make a little impact on what I can.
And my take on the original post was kind of along those lines...
You do bring up issues though that are worth thought.
I do believe there are plenty of great people that would benefit from many of us.
Cheers,
DD
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 14, 2007 - 11:57am PT
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Every spring the SCMA holds their Novice Training Class. The class is built around teaching newbies, and gymbies, how to safely follow a multi-pitch gear protected climb. Old school techniques are taught: how to hip belay and rap with and w/o a belay device; knots; signals; how to reverse a rappel and ascend a rope over an overhang with prussiks; how to tie off a fallen climber and escape a belay; how to clean gear and anchors.
After finishing the course you'll not see any of these folks top-roping through slings. From every class a few new trad leaders emerge.
A bunch of old time, and not so old time, trad climbers volunteer 5 Saturdays every year in this effort.
The majority of the climbers on this forum are repulsed by the idea of a club. Largo has written several stories poking fun at the RCS, and deservedly so. But give the devil his due.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Nov 14, 2007 - 01:04pm PT
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We can try to teach all the nOObs or we can rid ourselves of the problem with this excellent bit of advice from Vertical Limit:
"Montgomery Wick: You did the right thing to cut the rope. Any good climber would have."
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2007 - 01:10pm PT
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Maybe deglamorizing somehow. No more hotties and Brad Pitt types hanging upside down in the best looking clothes!
Only greasy old grey beards with bleeding hands and frozen noses on the covers of these magz!!
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Nostrodomas
Trad climber
Visalia, Ca.
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Nov 14, 2007 - 08:40pm PT
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Watusi, yes Larry was the Dinubian, but is now a Visalian....lol
Survival, he still is a great guy and so very easy to hang out with.
You guys have any good stories from the so called way back machine? I need some good dirt for this week end. Message me if its to bad...lol
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2007 - 11:03pm PT
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Nostrodomas,
I believe I actually have zero dirt on the guy (very rare) He was always just super kind and cool with us. Tell him Birchell says hello from the Oregon bong team. Then ask him if he's still hitting on everyone elses girlfriends, and tell him I said it. HA! Then let him off the hook, cause I'm only blowing smoke. Can he still walk the slack?
B
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 14, 2007 - 11:11pm PT
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Lucky Me:
........
I had the good fortune to run into Clark Jacobs at the local bar in Idyllwild. Since meeting, we have been bouldering and climbing in J.Tree and Idyllwild, watched lots of old climbing videos, and he's given me endless instruction on equipment... all for a few beers and meals.
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Nostrodomas
Trad climber
Visalia, Ca.
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Nov 14, 2007 - 11:52pm PT
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I will let him know you said hello. Oh and yes he is still Slacklining like a mad man. Not to mention bouldering twice a week, and hitting the valley on the week ends. He is on a mission....
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| Messages 1 - 49 of total 49 in this topic |
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