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| Messages 1 - 91 of total 91 in this topic |
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 8, 2007 - 01:40pm PT
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As we slowly work toward developing the amorphous "Stonemaster" into a company, we keep working on the credo. Here's what we have so far:
Thirty years ago, a rock and a lightning bolt had a crazy romance and a slew of bastard kids they called Stonemasters. Our lullaby was Jimi Hendrix's Have you ever been Experienced - a naked dare to sack it up and jump as far into the unknown as we possibly could. Those who jumped first encountered a geyser of inspiration that blew a generation beyond themselves. Clothes, attitudes, even language morphed into a live thing that charged from Newport Beach to Chamonix. While the original faces have faded in time, the Stonemaster himself is indestructible, and ours by birthright. To anyone with a restless spirit and dangerous dreams, the Stonemaster remains, till the end of time, a springboard into the Great Unknown.
JL
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Ricky and I just had a climb and shared a glass of vino last week; we talked a lot about this and it was our feeling that a prime element in all of it was a great sense of opportunity and possibility.
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Michelle
Trad climber
If it's puny, don't waste my time.
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uhh, thats alot of big words..
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hashbro
Trad climber
Not in Southern California
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Large-Go and Mikey, now that the Stonemasters are moving toward the development of a vastly profitable company, are all past members of the club scheduled to be recipients of said profit? Will we be shareholders or members of the board?
If so please sign me up...ha,ha,ha
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Have You Ever Been to Electric LadyLand, I think is in the mix.
Go SMs....
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Largo, Mike,
Do I dare edit the master? Since I'm just an out-of-shape, middle-aged, post-cardiac multiple-amputee and have nothing left to lose, here goes...
Thirty years ago, a rock and a lightning bolt had a crazy romance and spawned a slew of bastard kids they called Stonemasters. Our lullaby was Jimi Hendrix's Are You Experienced? - a naked dare to sack it up and jump as far into the unknown as possible. Those who jumped first encountered a geyser of inspiration that blew a plume through to the generation beyond. Clothes, attitudes, even language morphed into a live thing that charged from Newport Beach to Chamonix, demolishing entrenched standards, raising the bar to the stratosphere and leaving the old guard wondering what happened. While the original faces have faded in time, the Stonemaster himself is indestructible and ours by birthright. To anyone with a restless spirit and dangerous dreams the Stonemaster remains, till the end of time, a springboard into the Great Unknown.
BTW, the Great Unknown is something you read about in Nat'l Geo'. Isn't there a better place that the Stonemasters would want to live?
With humble respect,
Mal
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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How many of the song titles from the album were used in Stonemaster routes?
"Purple Haze" – 2:46
"Manic Depression" – 3:30
"Hey Joe" (Billy Roberts) – 3:23
"Love or Confusion" – 3:15
"May This Be Love" – 2:55
"I Don't Live Today" – 3:55
"The Wind Cries Mary" – 3:21
"Fire" – 2:34
"Third Stone From the Sun" – 6:40
"Foxey Lady" – 3:15
"Are You Experienced?" – 3:55
And, of course, the immortal line "Scooze me, while I kiss this guy."
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
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I just dashed that thing off. I wanted feedback before I slaved over it. I think it needs to be simplified.
JL
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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maldaly, most excellent man.
Is there, like, a sign up sheet?
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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largo, you can surely take some of the verbage out of it. Post up when you get a final product.
Mal
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Credo: (1) A set of principles held by a specified group, esp. as a philosophy. (2) A creed, esp. the Apostles' or Nicene creed.
 Canadian Oxford Dictionary
(I was curious what the actual definition was.)
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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John,
It's there, just boil it down.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2007 - 07:04pm PT
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Hey, you guys gotta give a hand here. The community should have some say on this me thinks. This is what we have so far (thanks to Mal for suggestions):
Thirty years ago, a rock and a lightning bolt had a crazy romance and spawned a slew of bastard kids they called Stonemasters. Our lullaby was Jimi Hendrix's Are You Experienced? - a naked dare to sack it up and jump as far into the unknown as possible. Those who jumped first encountered a geyser of inspiration that blew a plume through to the generations beyond. To anyone with a restless spirit and dangerous dreams, the Stonemaster is yours by birthright and remains a springboard into the Land of Possibilities.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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I don't know what my decidedly non-stonemaster but avid John Long book reader POV is worth, but...
Do you need a credo? I always thought of the Stonemasters a group of people who were each highly unique and who each brought something different to the group. I'm sure as w/ any group, there were certain things that sort of needed to be held in common in order for the freindship to have some cement, but the idea that there were club rules (obviously an artistic abstraction of some common beliefs here, but still...) makes my Stonemaster fantasy less enjoyable.
I don't think that my enjoyment of a fantasy matters a bit, but I do wonder if there is more truth in describing the stonemasters as free thinkers who weren't into professions of faith by just telling each of your stories in the way that only you can?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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WAY different world back then, when we were fighting for alternative lifestyles and freedom.
Too bad we lost.
Why give up the fight?
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Still like the original
I like how it captures the essence of an era but its not really limited to the era in its message.
Roxjox is spot on with the dynamics of the time as he mentions earlier although it sounds as though I missed some good parties.
There is something stirring now that’s different than even ten years ago. I see and hear great stories of young climbers searching for some extension into the unknown of either themselves or their surroundings. I see people breaking tradition today as one did 30, 60, 90 years ago. Things come full circle, even those pushing the grades are finding adventure in it and in their own way they’re finding out more about themselves.
Today’s concerns about the environment aren’t new to us here on this forum but it’s the new buzz in the mainstream. As with new climbers coming into the fold out of the mainstream so well a respect for the outdoors and its resources with time. Everyone eventually finds something different than what they though they were looking for. Surprising oneself as much as possible along the way should be the mission.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Alright! I know you could chop some verbiage and make it stronger.
...Land of Possibilities????
That needs work. Come on gang. We can do it!
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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It was thirty years ago today........,
Thirty years ago the lullaby was Hendrix' Are You Experienced; The stonemasters; spawned from Rock and Lightning; their quest: to sack it up and jump as far into the unknown as possible.
Those first to leap sent a geyser of inspiration that blew a plume to the generations beyond. To anyone with a restless spirit and dangerous dreams, the Stonemaster is yours by birthright and remains a springboard into the Land of Possibilities
tried to shorten it and clean it a little. FWIW
John i really enjoy your writing and I hope you have some fun with this because i know I'll have fun reading it. i think your strongest writing comes from your honesty
murf
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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So mtnmun, work that into the credo. Shouldn't be a problem finding someplace to line the posers up along side the dreamers, eh?
Mal
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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... a challenge and an inspiration, to know from various physical, electric influences (Jimi being a big one) that any thing is possible
Mighty hiker style edit; Hey Joe-billy Roberts? It will always be McKinley Morganfield, (and of course, Jimi) to me!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2007 - 10:29pm PT
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At the very least we end up with an interesting discussion spurred by a fragment written in five minutes.
JL
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Let's go for economy here.
STONEMASTERS: high hopes, low slung jeans, & big dreams (so much to gain & so little to loose).
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Ok, so I mostly ripped that last (bit) from Bridwell.
And I do like Hobo Dan's rendition.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I deny being stylish.
(Thread drift invades Largo's thread. Is nothing sacred?)
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Are we going to have to memorize this to get into the club? He he.
Cuz if we do, I say shorter is better.
Otherwise I kinda liked Mal's slightly modified version of the Original.
Largo Edit: You should always go with your first instinct.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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I like Melissa’s notes above.
John: I can’t believe you still are writing like this. Real hugs anyway .
It’s 2007.
Are you trolling us? Obviously. You are very very bright.
It was a fantastic group, Beat really, as in the older days. And continued. In our prime. Most of it happened after I was through risking my life every day in major Trad. Way back in 1963-1978.
The notion of a Club---Johno, you know better for Christ’s sake---is actually repugnant. Can you cast this differently?
There is no doubt that that Mid Period in the seventies, is worth essaying, writing about, and obviously you have started this project. I am glad.
But I would suggest you temper this notion of yours, that the experimentation was ALL THAT otherworldly and boundary-less. You guys left quite an enormous bit left to try on all levels, of course. I am sure you understand.
best,
Peter Haan
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Man we are an unruly bunch.
And so is a small paragraph, a slogan, an unruly bunch of words.
But it is rewarding to crack it just so.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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My thoughts about this would partly depend on the audience that is being sought, and also on the purpose.
I believe a collection of semi-historical stories about the Stonemaster era would be very worthwhile and entertaining, particularly if there were several contributors. The era, the people and characters, their adventures, and their feelings. And perhaps a look back. The stories need to be told - it's one way that those coming after will learn about and appreciate their forebears.
Writing a good introduction will be an enormous challenge.
It might be interesting to add some other informed perspectives, e.g. those of people such as Royal Robbins, Steve Roper, or Yvon Chouinard, all of whom wrote climbing stories if not history. Or even views of climbers from other places and times. A kind of festschrift.
Particularly as some Stonemasters are still quite active, it may be too early for a real insight into their place in the history of climbing. Clearly significant, based on the objective evidence of what they did and how they did it, and how they influenced others. But good history requires distance, time, and thought about historiography. As Zhou Enlai supposedly said when asked about the impact of the French Revolution: "It's too early to tell".
Climbing writing is considered by literary mavens to be an odd sub-genre of travel writing. One of the features of such writing is that the plots are usually simple - getting to a destination, how we got there, who we met along the way, what we saw, and what we did. The Odyssey is the oldest and perhaps still best example, and is highly entertaining. It also introduces some deeper themes about human nature and behaviour. A lot of travel writing piles on the adjectives, tells colourful stories, and otherwise does its very best to evade the reality that it's not saying anything profound.
Of course, it's impossible to put into words the joie de vivre, camaraderie and challenge you all shared. You have to try, but don't forget the perils of myth creation.
One technique that can be useful is to write something, then go back and eliminate all the adjectives and adverbs. Make the thing stand on its own, and see what it looks like without all the decorations. It gives you insight into the substance of what you're saying. The difficulty with this is that John's writing is as much poem as prose. I had a shot at parsing his credo, but gave up.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Anders you are such fun!
Festschrift: a volume of writings by different authors presented as a tribute or memorial especially to a scholar.
… I also socked away the rest of what you just wrote.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Hmmmm, a bunch of egotistical young maniacs devoted themselves to climbing and said 'f#ck it!' to everything else and then egged each other into heinous acts of bravery/foolishness and you want to start a club?!
I wouldn't join a club then and I won't now either.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Carrying on Jan's cheerful theme, a sociologist commenting on the Stonemasters might have some interesting and perhaps not entirely comfortable thoughts.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Good comments all
I always read between the lines (a bad habit of mine). Not sure where I read “Club” in all this though?
Keep em coming
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Thank you, Kevin. Problem #1 of historiography: define who and what you're talking about, in a way that makes sense.
Or, as Groucho Marx (?) put it, never join any club that will have you for a member.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Make some durable white pants and we'll talk about my words.
I mean, fek already, just make em.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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I have the sense that the Stonemasters, as they are now called, were at the time unaware of being anything other than climbers, with individual goals and desires and links one to another. It seems some things develop in retrospect. Yet there is nothing wrong with that. I would not, however, convey that it was all any sort of clear idea from the start or during it all.
When I used Master of Rock to describe Gill, a truly unique artist of climbing to whom no one would ever compare then or later, it was no longer possible to use those words in that same way without thinking about him, and thus people all around tried different uses of words to describe their own favorite climbers, i.e. rock masters, masters of stone, stone masters, etc., and such phrases, for me, began to take on a very "worldly" connotation, if you will. Again, I am not being critical. What I find interesting here, though, is that the term Stonemasters describes now a group of people, which is a whole different sense than an individual, and, I think, unique.
I like the ideas expressed above, about letting individuals tell their own stories. Plant the flag of "Stonemasters" at the top of the page, with some simple "credo," and let it develop in its own organic way.
I would suggest getting away from the notion, however, that these individuals blew standards completely away, as someone above said. There were plenty of really remarkable climbers all around the country and the planet at that time. The Stonemasters had their beautiful day in the sun, for certain, but in some context of their own. That context, that very personal world, would be a worthy project to try to describe, avoiding any sense, however, of great, all-encompassing superiority. Yes they had their specialized ways and triumphs and breakthroughs, and, at some things, were "superior." But not in all ways, by any means, or so as to overshadow the talents in other worlds beyond their own.
Just a few late night thoughts and suggestions.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Just an idea:
No words on the labels, just a pic of a classic line and the stonemaster logo in the lower corner. Attach the tag with a bit of cord and a re-useable metal clip.
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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The credo makes the "Stonemasters" into heroes, men two steps ahead of mere mortals. My impression of the Stonemasters was of a super committed bunch of climbers, knitted together through their obsession with Yosemite, Joshua Tree, Suicide..., and their passion for hippie lettuce.
Tell the story simply. For men so bad ass, there's no need for "fine writing."
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TwistedCrank
climber
Caution: Filling may be hot.
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It's fun to label and catagorize and sloganize and credoize but I really don't think it adds any value to the stonemasters concept.
Just tell the story. There's enormous value in the stories alone - more than can ever added to by giving a paranthetical second title to the stonemaster's history.
These are stories that I pass on to my kids: "I read this story once about this guy Tobin, who..."
edit: removed unitentional reference to the salad bowl. Thanks Kevin.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Thirty years of commitment to adventure, born of rock and lightning, the spawn, those of restless spirit and dangerous dreams, have come and gone but the Stonemaster remains, till the end of time, a springboard into the Great Unknown.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Nice Ed
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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John,
It sounds like you are looking for a slogan more than a credo.
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mingus
Trad climber
Grand Junction, Colorado
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"but don't forget the perils of myth creation"
Mr. Mighty Hiker, with all respect to your articulate assessment of historical presentation...I subscribe to the idea that one should never let whatever truth exists, get in the way of a good story. After all -- we are talking about the Stonemasters, Hendrix, that stuff you folks call H. lettuce (amomgst other things). If we don't have decent myth then all we are stuck with is excel spreadsheets and some story about Uncle Manny having a stroke while over-hauling the lawn mower. What would Joseph Campbell say?
Largo, you probably have some deadline to get these stories out and I can't wait to read them, but I think you are in a place to write a wider climbing history and story that encompasses the personalities and epics of a broader era. I read stuff all the time on ST that makes me laugh and wince in its honesty -- and wonder what graveyard in cyberspace they will go to. Please keep writing, editing and compiling the words that make us all lift a couple of feet off the ground when we are having a bad day.
Don't roll your eyes yet...but Ken Burns did his documentaries based on still shots...the Civil War, The West. To mention Stacy Peralta to someone who lives in CA is probably a violation of some sort, but I live in the desert of western Colorado, and what the hell...sometimes you see and appreciate other peoples destinies more than your own. Be sure, I'm buying the book.
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Carolyn C
Trad climber
the long, long trailer
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"I subscribe to the idea that one should never let whatever truth exists, get in the way of a good story...If we don't have decent myth then all we are stuck with is excel spreadsheets and some story about Uncle Manny having a stroke while over-hauling the lawn mower."
Very nice way to put it. The "myths" and probably over-romanticized tales of an earlier generation of climbers motivated me to start climbing.
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WBraun
climber
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I like Ed Hartouni's description because how it transcends. His description leaves the door open.
I don't like myths ........
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2007 - 12:47pm PT
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John,
It sounds like you are looking for a slogan more than a credo.
Actually, I'm not looking for anything in particular. It's interesting to see the perspectives offered here.
So far as the non-club, anti-organization of the Stonemasters not totally demolishing standards, consider Tobin's first trip to the Alps (I believe in '76???). He warms up by free soloing the N. Face of the Matterhorn in jeans and a sweatshirt. Moves onto the first continuous ascent of the Eiger Direct, then the Super Col. on the Dru (then the hardest ice climb in the Alps and one of the first time people bivyed hanging off ice screws), and on and on and on. Considering he was doing things like Tales of Power, Astroman and the Shield back in Yosemite, and was starting to rip it up on big mountains as well, the guy was almost certainly the grestest all around climber during the later 70s.
And the Stonemasters were not limited to climbing, remember. Consider the adventure and exploring expeditions to Papua New Guinea, Irian Jaya, Borneo, North Pole and so forth.
These were all new things when first done.
JL
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Maybe some words from Jimi will help the creative process...
"Here I come to save the day
A little boy inside a dream just the other day
His mind fell out of his face and the wind blew it away
A hand came out from heaven and pinned a badge on his chest
It said get out there, man, and do your best
They call him astro man
And he's flyin higher than
That faggot superman ever could..."
Hendrix
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WBraun
climber
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Yeah that's it Bachar.
That's that Hendrix song you guys always blasted at the base when we went climbing. Back then I never knew the lyrics to that song.
All I heard was this loud ass screeching coming out of that boom box driving me nuts with noisy distraction because of my shitty ears.
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Gordon
Trad climber
South Florida
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John, here's my unsolicited two-bits worth (from your notes):
"A few boys once dodged a fifth and a girl in her panties before riding a Pinto into The Basement. There, September '72, lightning struck. The Stonemaster emerged and changed it all, forever. With balls the size of a burden and no way to bail, we chased our own stories up on the High Lonesome, pushing past busted bodies and a brother lost. Past generations stepped aside as dangerous dreams and a bit of madness gave rise to a new era in climbing. A rockin’ time it was.
The Stonemaster still awaits those who dare to be touched by his restless spirit."
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flyingkiwi1
Trad climber
Seattle WA
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What a great thread!
Hobo's statement about honesty in writing applies well to Largo's, and applies well - well beyond.
I believe that people of all stripes look, consciously or not, for honest expression in life. Some genres of expression work better for some people than others. But within a preferred genre, the purer an expressor or group of expressors (call em artists) can distill their groove, the more the genre-philes dig it.
I think the Stonemasters must have had one damfine distilled ultrapure flow of a groove goin on for a while back then, because I know that groove influenced me and countless others down the decades.
As for your credo - well, I think Michael Stipe said something like, "We are not the last best writers of these songs." So know that people will find in your honesty, your groove, that which works for them, and the degree to which it bears resemblance to the track you laid may vary. But I'm really digging the distillation process here, because I know that in the end you're gonna bust a stonemonster paragraph for the stone ages, and I am gonna love reading it.
Ian
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captain chaos
climber
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I remember when I first went to the valley, Bridwell took McKinney and I there to go climbing in the early, early 70's like 71/72... somewhere in that time range. I remember my first encounters with some of his climbing buddies or should I say family... who happened to be Kauk, Werner, Worrall, Largo, Billy Westbay, Dale Bard, Chapman, Bachar, Graham, Pettigrew, Yabo, Clevenger, Dave Yearian, Cashner, and more. I remember all these guys hanging out together like one big family, and most lived there pretty much all year long. Everyone was young, really young... basically most had just fallen out of the nest, I remember the energy everyone had as being this indescribable powerful full on go for it attitude, I was blown away by the juice that was flowing from all these wild young guns who were breaking the laws of physics by pushing the past climbing standards to new limits and living the Camp 4 lifestyle of this era of new age climbers to its fullest. In time, I became very good friends with all your guys, did some climbing with you, sking with you, partied with you, and spent much of my life around many of you, it was one of the best, most inspiring and memorable times of my life, and I often think about those days and miss them dearly, but the memory lives, the spirit lives and that spirit should it be called anything may as well be called the Stonemaster spirit. This time I am talking about was a very special time, the people of this time and you know who you are were extremely gifted, talented and special people doing extraordinary things during an extraordinary time. In time everyone went their own way, but here on the Supertopo, a gathering is taking place and its great to see everyone coming together and telling some of these old stories, as those days and the people during those times need to be remembered and the stories need to be told and recorded, and I take my hat off to you Largo for standing up and taking charge, as this period of time was too special and too good to be forgotten. So, for all my Stonemaster brothers out there, know I think about you and those days all the time, they were a great moment in my life, all of you guys are great. And Kevin, anytime you want your ass kicked in the Merced again, let me know and I'll thrash your ass up and down the river like I did way back when... tu hermano- Craig
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CF
climber
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Here is the bolt next to Midnight Lightning from different years.
1980 sometime
1/25/01
10/26/02
Ron Kauk 1980 something
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Brings to mind an old bit from a Mountain Gazette:
These men were hard men. They liked their eggs hardboiled and their women hard hearted. They didn't wear underwear, they wore hardware. These men were hard to believe.
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WBraun
climber
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Yeah
Hard to believe.
Do you believe any of this bullsh'it?
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WBraun
climber
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Rojox
No way, you didn't insult at all.
I was just joking with my above bullsh'it comment.
It had nothing to do with you.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Nov 10, 2007 - 03:14am PT
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Yes Tobin was a star. There were also lots of good climbers showing up all over, though. Charlie Fowler, for example, in the mid-later '70s, free soloing DNB and Diamond, sight leading 5.12s, repeating Breashears' unprotected Perilous Journey, etc. etc. He went on, of course, to do anything he took a liking to in the way of mountaineering and alpinism, an incredible final resume. Did the first hammerless ascent of the Shield... I could name others of that kind of raw talent, not forgetting Hot Henry even, but also boulderers, such as Jim Holloway, who could clean up on just about anyone at will... Greg Lowe would not climb for a year, then put a rope on and sight lead the first ascent of some overhanging 5.12... The Stonemasters were brilliant, indeed, but had no monopoly on brilliance. It was all over Europe and England too, shining strong...
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captain chaos
climber
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Nov 10, 2007 - 03:43am PT
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Kevanos... your right, I almost forgot- their were some nice g-g-g-girls at that party, what da fuc were we doing thrashing ourselves in the river when these beauties were just sitting there waiting to be taken away to the nearest stenchy old tent? I'm sure Brid took complete advantage of our normal predator abilities while being tied up in a river wrestling match, and made off with a few of the beauties and kept them all to himself. And your right, I think it was a draw... but I only because we both got thirsty and needed some mo beers, and began thinking about the girls Brid was making off with. Those were great days, times and good memories... I always loved my spring and fall pilgrimage to the valley, you guys always welcomed us with open arms, and helped me on my fledgling el cap climbs always happy to hand out gear I needed for the climb, I remember Warner always being generous with his biners and pins (thanks again Werner) and Kauk always let me use his ledge (I believe one of first ones Graham ever made) which I of course thrashed but he never complained once. Great days and great times... maybe a get together with everyone from that time needs to be organized? I don't know if it would ever happen, but it would be great if it did... we could pick up where we left off in the river, wha da ya say- Calanamoku
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2007 - 10:07am PT
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I think what sometimes gets lost in the discussion here is that far above and beyond the Stonemaster's technical talents were the attitudes that, taken in block, were so influential. Hence the line: "Clothes, attitudes, even language morphed into a live thing that charged from Newport Beach to Chamonix."
The most amazing thing perhaps is that the non-club and non-organization of the Stonemasters was totally inclusive of anyhone who happened to be around. I remember Billy Westbay and I joining two Japanese climbers on a trip up the Column the frist hour they showed up in Camp 4. They wandered into camp under these huge haul bags and all they had was an old topo for the Column, which they showed Billy. He said he knew the route and would show them right then and there. He got me and we were off.
So if anyone is feeling excluded or one-upped by anything said by or about the Stonemasters, I trust you've missed the spirit of the non-movement, which was a community fandango, not a technical exercise carried out by various isloated individuals doing largely specialized activities.
JL
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captain chaos
climber
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Nov 10, 2007 - 11:34am PT
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John... your exactly right and that's what I was talking about when I said you guys always welcomed us with open arms and were always willing to help, regardless of who it was... it was the spirit of the time and of that group, which made the whole situation unique and special.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Nov 10, 2007 - 11:44am PT
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So if anyone is feeling excluded or one-upped by anything said by or about the Stonemasters, I trust you've missed the spirit of the non-movement, which was a community fandango, not a technical exercise carried out by various isloated individuals doing largely specialized activities.
Well said John
I want to invite everyone to read a great story about a generational return to El Cap.
Salathe Wall 2001 along with other good reads which cross State boundaries and beyond
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Nov 10, 2007 - 02:02pm PT
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Getting John Long's original thought stream forged into a fluid and accessible form is a venerable task.
What's at stake here is this balance between individual or group achievement and that fuzzy line which blends towards the receptiveness of others, transforming such an experience into a contribution.
Any time you watched Yabo, grip, snarl and style his way up something, there were two things happening: his own highly invested experience on the one hand and our uptake of that on the other, the hallmark of that collusion is an inspirational legacy shared by all involved.
Much in the way a painting is experienced or the written word is interpreted; it's the apprehension, the appreciation of art, this act completes the loop and adds so much more dimension to the artistic experience than the isolated piece as end unto itself, because there is a secondary aspect of creation in which the viewer partakes, adding it to their own cache of possibilities and moving forward with new ideas, sensations, and actions.
That to me is what this is all about, that's why we all own it.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Nov 10, 2007 - 02:50pm PT
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John said: "So if anyone is feeling excluded or one-upped by anything said by or about the Stonemasters, I trust you've missed the spirit of the non-movement, which was a community fandango, not a technical exercise carried out by various isolated individuals doing largely specialized activities."
And yet routes were established with big runouts to the first bolt to "keep the riffraff off". Everyone was invited, only those who could man up were allowed to stay. That was one hell of a time to climb!
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Nov 11, 2007 - 06:45pm PT
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After re-reading my re-write I think it sounds like something from that StoneHenge scene in Spinal Tap where the Little Person is dancing aroound the 10" high model
and this route goes to five "Eleven"
I went canoeing with Steve Araiza and his family this summer- We were remembering and the term we had for the Stonemasters was that they were the "Heavies"
murf
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 20, 2012 - 12:27am PT
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Bump for the process.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jun 20, 2012 - 01:11am PT
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John, your first post is classic 2007 marketing copy. Sounds pretty funny now I bet.
If I may put aside marketing lingo and move more towards philosophy, I'd say the Stonemaster credo might be summed up in these words:
"Why are you doing that?"
This is the question that shatters the current paradigm and moves us to the next level.
As Largo has said in other posts, something to the affect that a Stonemaster could exist at any time when the old ways fall to new ways and a clearer vision of the future emerges.
I hope the Stonemaster "brand" does well and a few of those old guys make some money from it.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 20, 2012 - 01:34am PT
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The self is not important but the work is.
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ß Î Ř T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Jun 20, 2012 - 01:48am PT
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Thread aside, it amazes me that Rokjox
has been silenced here.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 20, 2012 - 04:32am PT
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I have no desire to be disrespectful. That's not my intent.
Rather I'm curious and want to understand the timeline,
as I rework my Wizards of Rock. When actually did people start
to use the term "stonemasters?" Of course originally I came up
with Master of Rock, as a title of a book about the best boulderer
anywhere. And Stonemaster a fair bit later seemed to
appear. It seemed to take a kind of switch on master of
rock. There was, of course, a film... called the Stonemasters,
as I recall, though I can't exactly place it time-wise. For me,
that was the first I heard the name stonemaster.
Wasn't the idea of the group who called themselves "stonemasters"
a retrospective idea. I mean, did they actually think that way
at the time these gents were doing their best clmbs? Or was it later
as some began to reflect on these individuals as a kind of group or
clan? And of course there were phenomenal climbers all around the
country at the time, setting standards in their own areas, the best
in many different areas being the best of the best anywhere, and
some of these were friends with many of those later cited as stonemasters.
So is the line a little unclear in some cases, as to whom a
stonemaster is? Mined you, there is nothing at all wrong with
the retrospective idea, that the term stonemasters should later
be applied to a group of friends who might not at the moment of
their brilliance have thought of themselves as part of a group.
I hear people talk about Ginsberg and various things that really
were of a different, earlier time period. I think it's easy to
collect all sorts of valuable feelings and images from various years
and decades later find them grouped into a single little era... Memory
probably does tend to mush a lot of things together that weren't
in fact so closely related. It might be good to help us gain
a better understanding, a tighter sense of those people and
those days.... I climbed a fair bit with lots of those guys,
Accomazzo, Tobin, Bachar, even a little with Warbler, etc.,
but I never at that time generally assigned to them ever
heard the term stonemasters. Could be I lived too far away...
or wasn't especially listening to that particular thing?
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Jun 20, 2012 - 06:14am PT
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PO- "Wasn't the idea of the group who called themselves 'stonemasters' a retrospective idea. I mean, did they actually think that way at the time these gents were actually doing their best climbs?"
The winter of '76-'77 is the timeline that I could give you as knowing for certain that they were calling themselves 'Stonemasters' because...I recall being at home in Mammoth one day that winter and one of my roommates walking in and saying "One of the Stonemaster's was soloing ice in(either Lee Vining Canyon or June Lake/don't recall which)and took a long fall and decked." Pretty much his exact words, and I specifically recall him referring to the person as "one of the Stonemasters." And I remember asking him which one and he said he wasn't sure(it was breaking news/travels pretty fast on the eastside)but he believed it was Gib Lewis(which was later confirmed as being true). And I am pretty sure that 'Stonemasters" was a housedhold term by then(climbing household).
Lived and climbed in Idywild '72-'74 and they were of course ubiquitos to that area during that time. And very well could have been referred to as such, but I don't remember. I do recall that by '72-'73, the requirement was already set at leading Valhala in order to gain entrance into their inner circle. i was not worthy(or perhaps to chicken sh#t to man up to their standards. i never tried Valhalla, but did some other .11's at the time!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 20, 2012 - 07:49am PT
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In the end, we are the measure of our desire. How we fill the emptiness, that is our legend. How empty are the legends, that is the wind.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Jun 20, 2012 - 08:05am PT
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DP- "How empty are the legends, that is the wind"
^^^so very true for all of humanity(imo)!
"I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and striving after wind."
edit; 'all is vanity and striving after wind' in modern vernacular = it is all vain/hopeless, like trying to catch/grasp the wind!
@Don Paul, 'The Silver Chalice' = primo read!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Social climber
Retired in Appalachia
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Jun 20, 2012 - 08:39am PT
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1970s
Camp 4
Are You Experienced playing on a tape cassette player on the picnic table during breakfast.
We called it "pancake music" because we always made pancakes to Jimi.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:42am PT
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splitter, interesting for me hearing the phrase "striving after wind" having moved from Oregon to Pacific Beach in 1974 and climbing again back at Tahquitz. Not sure when Striving After Wind was established in PB but I did buy all my passive protection there in '74 and gave up my old rack of pins. I always wondered about the name of that store.
I do believe you're right as to the time frame, it seemed to me that the first I heard the term Stonemaster was at Tahquitz in 75 or 76. I think a lot of people or time blurrs the Stonemaster era with the sixties and early seventies when there was a completely different crowd hanging around the popular crags and in Yosemite some of whom continued on.
There are times when a convergence takes place of events, people, place and culture; a synergy of circumstanace that morphed into something tangible or at least identifiable. I saw the sixties that way and the Stonemaster era as well.
JL, as a suggestion don't date it by quoting time such as "30 years", make it timeless. Possibility and adventure while limited to our demographic is very much present for youth who should make no small plans.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:58am PT
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Found a chaulk bag at Suicide in 76 with a yellow lightning bolt on it which cracked me up. The Cal Tech crowd along with the old rock climbing section of the Sierra Club were on their way out and the new generation had arrived.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:58am PT
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CharlieD, ^^^good stuff(your first post)!
Yes, PB's 'A Striving After Wind' the owner(Tom)use to ride up with us and climb at Tahquitz/Suicide during the years i mentioned. I bought a pair of Black Beauties climbing/edging boots when they were in vogue via the stonemasters! i followed suit and immediately had the soles removed and replaced with the flat, hard PA sole(as per stonemasters for the supreme edging boot for suicide face routes). worked well. i recall getting strung out/run out and off route on many suicide face routes in those things, ie. 'rebolting developement', etc.!...great times!! evidently Tom(can't think of his last name)passed away in the mid/late seventies...he was a good dude, i will always remember the day he took a long fall on one of the weeping wall routes(perhaps revelation)huge blisters on the palms of both hands. he was a hardcore dude(RIP)!
edit: i had a lightening bolt chalk bag in the mid seventies(i was not worthy). a friend made it for me. prollie still have it somewhere! i graduated to a 'kinnaloa' chalk bag in the mid eighties! i was so cool, lol!!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 20, 2012 - 11:07am PT
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Interesting, my idea was from the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
The Yosemite rock climbing culture is a distinct culture as genuine as that of any tribe in the jungle. Captured in the video Ground Up Perspectives, also Fitz Cahall's Dirtbag Diaries is about this, somewhat broader but Yosemite is the paradigm.
As far as I'm concerned, the people camping in camp 4 right now are stonemasters. Or, at least the ones who camp there all summer. Or, if the name stonemaster is taken, should be another name for them, which is just as heroic.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jun 20, 2012 - 11:21am PT
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Don't over-hype some very impressive accomplishments from youth...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 20, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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As far as the timeline, it looks like Master of Rock didn't come out until '77....
-"Stonemaster" was well in the vernacular several years before that, in California anyway.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Jun 20, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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Not sure it needs to be cleared up... Stonemaster was coined the same week several of us repeated Valhalla in rapid secession. that was the Spring of 72 I believe. the term might have been used quite a bit for a year or so after but was never pushed too much. So that might be behind the ambiguity of when it was first heard. I know in 78 during my trip to Britain it surfaced again in an interview Mountain Magazine made me do making it public for better or worse.
Nothing really retrospective as to the beginnings here. All were out just having fun. A lot of us traveled and in the process freed routes and raised grades. No one could help that the word spread in stories and lore.
I would say though Pat's "Master of Rock" played a part in it's history.
Mike
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 20, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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Stonemasters are the shizz....
Link: Knickers!
Trust me on this one.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 20, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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k-man, you got that right. Hey, I just scored a pair of Royal Robbins army pants for about $6 dollars at a thrift shop in Washington DC. Whoever owned them before, probably never heard of Yosemite. When it rains, suddenly half the city is wearing north face gear. Meanwhile on Pearl St, thousands of stylish trustafarians compare Christian Griffiths with Paul Pianas. This is where the real money is ... scamming posers!
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Jun 20, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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I still have a pair of first generation Gramicci climbing pants with the cotton/elastic cuffs. They're black. If I lose about fifty pounds they might still fit me. I had a white pair that i mainly wore and would pretend that I was WB when I bouldered in them because that is what hewas wearing when we watched him solo Midterm & Gripper and then ventured off to solo New D, i believe, when we crossed paths with him at Arch Rock one day back in '87 .
edit: come to think of it, that is what PC was wearing(white Gramicci climbing pants)earlier that same day as he passed me on the first pitch of New D.! I don't recall ever pretending that I was PC when I bouldered in them/mine, though. Hmmmn! ;)
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jun 20, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
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If I recall correctly the term "Stonemaster" was already in steady circulation (in Southern California, anyway) in 1973 or 1974, when I was still a totally out-of-the-loop grommet. By early in '76 the San Diego posse came up with "Scumbags" as a direct derivative, self-mocking moniker for our little backwater crew.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 20, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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Good point, Jaybro. I do know I was using that phrase "Master of
Rock" well before the book came out. And of course, as always,
we write books before they get around to being published. But I had
never heard "stonemasters" used until that film came out with the
title. I guess I was clueless. Lots of differences in opinion, though,
on dates. Many good voices, though, speak here I would trust. I do
know, however, that it's easy to get dates and times a little mixed
up (I do it all the time)... and it could be in some sense the term
came later but felt like it came sooner. Silly thing to say. It
reminds me of what a biopsychology professor told me once.
I shared with him the story of a
dream I had about a friend dying climbing, and he argued with me
incessantly that it was no vision or dream but rather that the brain
plays tricks and reverses things, that I knew of his death before I
remembered having the dream.... Or in other words, according to
him it was my knowledge of the friend's death that preceded the
dream.... I never agreed with him, but I have
come to realize how easy it is sometimes to get dates a little off.
Here, though, in this instance, it seems so many strong individuals,
Graham, Warbler (Kevin), etc., can't be wrong...
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Jun 20, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
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Pat,
What Film are you referring to?
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Jun 20, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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The second ascent of Valhalla was done during the Spring of my sophomore year at UCR by Jim Hoagland, Dennis Bird, and me. That was in April, 1972.
When I transferred to UCI in September, 1972, and started working at Ski Mart in Newport Beach, Mike Graham was all agog that I had done Valhalla. Not long after, Valhalla was done in rapid succession and Mike, pridefully, made up a book to keep track of the early ascents. This was hung on the over-large piton rack upstairs at the Mart.
One night, in my vanilla apartment in Costa Mesa, Doyne Podorsky coined the term "Stonemasters" for this self-select group. I told Garammich about this, he gave the name currency, drew up a lightning bolt logo, and there it was. People who were there at the time know that the Stonemasters were mostly behind the Orange Curtain at the time, or they were friends/partners of same.
I guarantee that Stonemaster® didn't make it into SoCal climbing parlance until AT LEAST the Summer of 1972, or the early Spring of 1973. (In my ancient climbing resum, I note that I was a founding member of the Stonemasters in 4/73. Could it be that the third and later ascents of Valhalla were done in the Spring of 1973?)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 20, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Here's my reworked bid for the Credo Sweepstakes:
Stonemaster's Credo: Low-Slung Jeans and Great Big Dreams ... (SO much to gain and SO little to lose.)
As to common usage of Stonemaster?
I, as an immediate contemporary of BVB, would not achieve access to that aspirational term until 1976/1977, when it was already and clearly in full force, as noted above by Muir.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 20, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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Okay kids: why take the opinion of originals such as Graham or Muir on the genesis of the term "Stonemaster".
Let's do the right thing, the common thing, and go to Wikipedia!
The page "Stonemaster" does not exist. You can ask for it to be created, but consider checking the search results below to see whether the topic is already covered.
For search help, please visit Help:Searching.
• John Long (climber)
Graham as founding members of an elite group known as the "Stonemasters ," who redefined world rock climbing standards and adventuring at large. ...
13 KB (1,937 words) - 05:07, 16 June 2012
• Tobin Sorenson
option com_content&task view&id 20&Itemid 33 A Short History of the Stonemasters, John Long. http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web07f/newswire-...
3 KB (419 words) - 18:47, 14 May 2011
• Stoney Point (California)
In the '70s the Stonemasters (a local group of climbers determined to put their own stamp on the sport of rock climbing) also frequented ...
4 KB (630 words) - 21:35, 9 May 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Long_(climber);
A 1974 graduate of Upland High School in Upland, California, Long studied humanities at the University of LaVerne (graduating with departmental honors), Claremont Graduate School and Claremont School of Theology.
Long joined then unknown teenage climbers John Bachar, Rick Accomazzo, Richard Harrison, Tobin Sorenson, Robs Muir, Gib Lewis, Jim Wilson, and Mike Graham as founding members of an elite group known as the "Stonemasters," who redefined world rock climbing standards and adventuring at large.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobin_Sorenson
A contemporary of John Long and John Bachar in a group putting up daring new routes in the Idyllwild, California area they called the "Stone Masters", Sorenson pushed risk standards in rock and alpine realm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoney_Point_(California);
From 1959 to 1995 one of Americas most accomplished climbers Bob Kamps was a regular to be seen on Tuesday and Thursday afternoons.
In the '70s the Stonemasters (a local group of climbers determined to put their own stamp on the sport of rock climbing) also frequented Stoney Point.
Sorry, Robs, there is no immediate attribution for Rubidoux when searching for Stonemaster, or vice versa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Rubidoux
The hill is also a popular place for bouldering, particularly for beginners in the sport.
*Clearly there is work to be done over there at Wikipedia. But it's not a bad start?
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Jun 20, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
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Roy, I think you're confusing Wikipedia with authority.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 20, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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Mike (Graham), I didn't pay much attention to it and never
did watch it, but there was a video (dvd) called Stonemasters, and
someone, probably the filmmaker (who I can't recall) sent it
to me one year... That seemed to have been the
later '70s and was the first
I heard the term.... I spent time with Rick and Bachar and even
a little with Tobin through those 70s but never heard them voice the
term.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 20, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
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rmuir wrote:
Roy, I think you're confusing Wkipedia with authority.
ha ha. I was hoping you'd get a chuckle out of that Robs!
I know I did. I just HAD to look though.
Wasn't too far off really (except for the Rubidoux bit, but that was going to be a stretch).
Wikipedia has been getting a lot better and more inclusive in a lot of arenas.
For example: it's spot on for BIOS on champion sports car and Grand Prix racing drivers from the 1970s.
So why not the Stonemasters ...
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