How durable is the sandstone in Zion?

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Messages 1 - 68 of total 68 in this topic
Nate Furman

climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 6, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
Hi all,

I've climbed in Zion a fair bit (touchstone, spaceshot, prodigal, moonlight, sheer lunacy, etc.) but probably not as much as many of y'all. I'm curious how durable these routes are. I've always been concerned about the trickle of sand that comes with each aid placement. Is the natural character of these routes changing quickly?

Curious for thoughts.
Cheers,
Nate
paganmonkeyboy

Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
Nov 6, 2007 - 04:58pm PT
Ron this one's got your name allll over it G...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 05:06pm PT
I smell something under the bridge,..
Internofchoice

Trad climber
NYC,NY
Nov 6, 2007 - 05:13pm PT
cough...troll...cough

oh sorry I had something in the back of my throat.
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Nov 6, 2007 - 05:14pm PT
That Touchstone sure sounds like a stupid route.
paganmonkeyboy

Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
Nov 6, 2007 - 05:16pm PT
on the off chance this isn't a troll -

(disclaimer - I'm just a clueless n00b, but I have bugged some giants...)
Not Very - especially on the lower pitches of the heavier traveled routes. Take a look at the grooves where people have hauled, see also the placements that just get bigger and bigger...
and don't you dare hook on that shizzle...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 05:41pm PT
Clueless nOOb or super-troll?

You be the judge.
Internofchoice

Trad climber
NYC,NY
Nov 6, 2007 - 05:42pm PT
You know at first I thought it was just a troll, but I am starting to have second thoughts. Curiouser and curiouser.
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Nov 6, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
Good times so far but no word yet on the origin of all that trickling sand.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 05:47pm PT
I might believe it more if Nate emailed his phone # and convinced me, but he likely doesn't have the stones to actually post it here on the forum.

(Mine is 435 635 9900, but if I'm online its busy).
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Nov 6, 2007 - 06:21pm PT
Why would someone who lacked balls and only wanted to yank your chain post under their own name? Do you guys have some history that the casual observer here wouldn't know about?

If you click on the OP's name, you'll see that he apparently signed up to write a nice and substantial eulogy for a fallen friend and made one other post to say that he thought a topo was nice.

Much of what I 'know' about the wear and tear on Zion sandstone came from stuff folks wrote about it on the internet. Just b/c everyone here was born knowing everything doesn't mean it's not worth saying some things again for the next person considering taking up walls.
paganmonkeyboy

Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
Nov 6, 2007 - 06:32pm PT
"Clueless nOOb or super-troll?

You be the judge."

I prefer to be referred to as Das Uber-N00b...

Nate I'm not yankin yer chain I hope - I'm in SLC too - hit me up and we can go aid the peeler or something...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 06:41pm PT
Melissa, I'll grant that you have some valid points, but the troll potential is obvious as well.

Here is my short answer;
Zion sandstone is NOT very durable, and the problem is made far worse by innefficient and (often innocent) abuse, which will likely influence the NPS, once they get wind of it, to take highly restrictive action.
This in turn will set precedent affecting other areas.
The selfishness of individual members of the climbing community combined with the cumulative nature of the damage virtually guarantees this.
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Nov 6, 2007 - 06:56pm PT
Now I feel like a prick. Not as bad as with Dodrill's grandma but still pretty bad.

AND I nailed last weekend...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 07:10pm PT
Hey Blinny,
whadisay?
crackfiend

climber
Nov 6, 2007 - 07:34pm PT
What are your thoughts on what we do or how we mitigate PitonRon? Obviously not nailing or camhooking on trade routes but it seems even these routes are getting damageg by clean climbing. I climbed spaceshot on friday and there are cam placements that seem like they are getting pretty blown out due to the traffic. Are we doomed and just trashing our routes to death? I tried to use some creative micronutting to avoid some of these flaring pods that cams seem to shave a little off of every time they are placed and weighted. It would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 07:44pm PT
Fair question Crackhead,

you aren't likely to find my answers very palatable though;

1) screening
2) impact assessment fees
3) permit raffles
4) completion bonds
5) mandatory fixed anchors (in some cases nuts)
6) bivy permit bans
7-9) miscelaneous song and dances
crackfiend

climber
Nov 6, 2007 - 07:58pm PT
No I live outside the park and climb here a ton and realize the implications of what these routes will be like in 5-10 years with the current traffic.

Interesting ideas... screening, you gotta learn the skills somewhere else before you come here

what do you mean by completion bonds and assesment fees? paying money for damage that you will do?

also what do you mean by banning bivy permits?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 08:19pm PT
Our finest routes don't need to be used by people who won't take the time to acquire the skills requisite for best preserving them.

Because the first pitch takes the most wear and the last the least we need to create incentive not to bail (save for sudden wet conditions).
The most serious forms of impact should require the highest fees. That encourages preservation while preserving freedom of expression/climbing.

No permission to drag items up the walls subject to drag trails. If you are too slow to do the trades in a day UP YOUR SKILLS!
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Nov 6, 2007 - 08:33pm PT
How much for Latitudes?

Seriously.

If I was in charge of the fee mechanism (and I should be) the fee for Touchstone/Spaceshot/Prodigal/Moonlight would be $500. Any other route free.

Again seriously.
crackfiend

climber
Nov 6, 2007 - 08:39pm PT
Interesting ideas, especially regarding hauling and the cuts they make. Far end hauling only?

I agree the nps will inevitably step in and change how they manage that resource.

So regarding fixed anchors, do you propose fixed gear installed at severely blown out placements to eliminate any further damage? fixed nuts seem like too much of a liability, nps would probablly just slap some fatty bolts in there. spaceshot seems like the problem child here as touchstone and moonlight have less damage from gear placements though some serious rope cuts.

I am interested in this because through climbing in the park a lot and through my job in springdale I come into contact with a lot of climbers and am in a position to promote "cleaner" climbing techniques.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 08:48pm PT
Fixed nuts with distinctively thick, marked cables (and each party completes a form after the climb, part of the song and dance, to indicate/assure condition of route).

Assessments are deducted from prepaid deposits according to impact behaviors performed. Completion bonds are forfeit if party bails, unless the party bails due to rain in which case they are given an opportunity to renew their permit.
paganmonkeyboy

Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
Nov 6, 2007 - 08:51pm PT
It's worth noting that there is a shitload of other sandstone in this state too - yeah they are not as tall, but I suspect a FA somewhere in the swell or the reef would still be spicey, and never see any more traffic if you don't tell anyone where it was, exactly...
(.02$ from someone organizing his pin rack over here for just such madness...)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 08:55pm PT
I'm onto your game pelted one.
paganmonkeyboy

Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
Nov 6, 2007 - 08:59pm PT
word ;-) i got a couple spots in mind too - still need a better reckon before i commit though...

and how do you pro that horrid layer of grey sugar ? run it out, pound in a bong and pray ? that stuff crumbles just looking at it...

edit : i think the key is not to take the sandstone for granite (badum bam crash !)
s. o.

Trad climber
academia
Nov 6, 2007 - 09:30pm PT
I say bring on the wear, prodigal sun will be splitter #2's in a few years.

If there is one thing that is preserving zion routes it is those damn falcons. I hear they taste like chicken.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 09:37pm PT
They DO taste like chicken but the flaring will preclude the use of 2s.
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Nov 6, 2007 - 09:40pm PT
This completion bond idea delights me. You could pay down the national deficit with this thing.



(I know you can hear me, Olevsky.)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 09:41pm PT
I'm not excluding FAers, but a smart system would include subsequent small partial credits from subsequent parties.

In theory a FA party could pay the fees to put up a route that could be so popular that they would never have to pay to climb in Zion again.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 09:43pm PT
Hey Ryan,
my routes are not THAT popular, are they?
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Nov 6, 2007 - 09:43pm PT
This hypothetical FA party, in theory, would hypothetically never have to work again.



(Now I KNOW you can hear me.)
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Nov 6, 2007 - 09:44pm PT
"This completion bond idea delights me"

That reminds me of Lil Tony Blair.

What about snail eye at the base? That's got to be the lowest form of impact next to snail eye at the car.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Nov 6, 2007 - 09:48pm PT
"In theory a FA party could pay the fees to put up a route that could be so popular that they would never have to pay to climb in Zion again."

I don't get it. I thought the idea was to discourage impact.
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Nov 6, 2007 - 09:51pm PT
Snail eye at the base is $10.00. In the car, on the house.

Ron, your routes are almost as popular as the bailing off of them, hahaha.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 09:53pm PT
Ryan,
I said credit (towards future climbs/impact) not PAYMENT.


Snail eye forfeits completion bond and use impact fees as it precludes other parties (who lost the permit raffle) from experiencing the route in fair conditions. The money paid goes into the preservation fund that pays specifically for the monitoring/maintainance/management of the resource.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 09:56pm PT
Melissa,
the idea is to use the resource to provide high quality/ low-impact climbs and then to enjoy and take good care of them without requiring non-climbers to foot the bill (and thereby justify regulating the activity).
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Nov 6, 2007 - 10:00pm PT
I guess I'm misreading your bit above b/c it sounds to me like you're saying that the FAist will profit from the popularity of the route? Surely I'm missing something there?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 10:02pm PT
Reread the part about credit Melissa.
goatboy smellz

climber
colorado
Nov 6, 2007 - 10:04pm PT
Isn't Utah climbed out?
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Nov 6, 2007 - 10:05pm PT
"I said credit (towards future climbs/impact) not PAYMENT."

Who gives credit to whom and for what, precisely? I'm not arguing w/ you...I'm just not understanding you.
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Nov 6, 2007 - 10:05pm PT
The royalties to the FA go into that person's account, thereby paying his/her way to continue impact activities on other resources.


I gotta admit, Ron, you've been ahead of the curve the whole time on Zion. Good on ya.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 10:12pm PT
Thanks Ryan.

Obviously the FA party would have to provide a reliable topo first.
This topo could be updated by subsequent parties, but they would recieve a copy in exchange for their small partial payment.

This provision would side step the exploitation of intellectual property by certain individuals though,...

gee, I'm all broken up over their potential loss of profit. LOL
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 10:23pm PT
Good luck selling YOUR program Stinker.
Yaro

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Nov 6, 2007 - 10:52pm PT
And how we going to determine whether person possess enough climbing skills to climb "our finest routes"? Possibly certification? Should we introduce "AMGA Certified Climber" exams with various levels of difficulty? :)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 10:56pm PT
Ever go SCUBA diving?
WBraun

climber
Nov 6, 2007 - 11:01pm PT
After reading all this sh'it I'm never going to Zion ever again not that anyone could give a sh'it either.

Too many rules and rulers ......

After 427,000 years, it will be safe to go again.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 6, 2007 - 11:03pm PT
Werner failed to note my comments about proliferation.
Jerry Dodrill

climber
Bodega, CA
Nov 7, 2007 - 02:07am PT
yo- WTF does my grandmother have to do with this?

"Now I feel like a prick. Not as bad as with Dodrill's grandma but still pretty bad.

AND I nailed last weekend..."




yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Nov 7, 2007 - 02:16am PT
Jerry, just referring to that deal where (I thought it was) your granny tried to find your pics and got shunted to an adult site and then I started making wisecracks about it like I was 13. Kinda like I was doing to ol' Nate here till Melissa called me out on it.

(Sorry again.)

Jerry Dodrill

climber
Bodega, CA
Nov 7, 2007 - 02:20am PT
Oh, yeah. No worries. Carry on.

Sure do miss her.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 7, 2007 - 02:22am PT
This is an interesting and informative discussion. I don't have any experience in Zion, or indeed with much sandstone, and so can't/shouldn't actively participate, but lurking is worthwhile.
Jerry Dodrill

climber
Bodega, CA
Nov 7, 2007 - 02:25am PT
After half a haul (new route):
Nate Furman

climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2007 - 09:35am PT
Ron,

My phone is 541.420.2307. You can email me at nathanfurman@yahoo.com.

By the way, I'm the person who showed you how to open .pdf documents about 3 years ago.

Thanks for your thoughts. Not a troll.

Cheers,
Nate
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 7, 2007 - 10:10am PT
Well done Nate.
Will call, but first I'm sending an angry email to the Supt. of Zion suggesting he read this thread.

Done.
yo

climber
The Eye of the Snail
Nov 7, 2007 - 11:01am PT
Hi, Jock!
Doug Hemken

climber
Madison, WI
Nov 7, 2007 - 11:38am PT
From a land manager's point of view this is small potatoes compared to the impact climbers have going to and from the cliffs: eroding use trails have much more ecological AND aesthetic impact than imperceptibly widening cracks and a few rope burns on rocks few park visitors could hope to even see.

Who would want to waste a lot of effort regulating the gear climbers use and how they use it when there are so many more pressing issues to deal with?
Nate Furman

climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2007 - 11:58am PT
Doug, I think that you're right. Disturbance at the base of climbs and at the top of climbs has much more "impact" than a few fixed stoppers or rope burns in the rock...especially if the land manager is taking the perspective that their job is about "protecting" the natural state of the environment from the user.

I'm concerned about the routes as recreational resources; about what the lifespan is of these routes. Are these routes something that are going to be climable in 30 years? Or is the natural state going to be so changed that they no longer desirable to climb?

Cheers,
Nate

Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Nov 7, 2007 - 12:00pm PT
Very short approaches and a decently high cactus density conspire to keep most people on trail in this region. These same short approachs put our climbs under the microscope, in this case.

best quote of the season thus far on the fun bus, while stopping under cerberus w/ a party sitting on their ledge over the roof: "This is a practice climb, easily done in a day. These people are setting up their beds for practice on real mountains"

times like that i wish they had a loudspeaker like the dragon.

edit to add, i think PR's right on w/ this one. it will be unpleasant to begin, but the alternative is 600' bolt ladders next to blown out scars.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 7, 2007 - 12:37pm PT
Lets face it, vegetation at the base can regrow, but hauling trails permanently inscribed up the walls, Zion's main attraction could become a far more serious consideration.
Nate Furman

climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2007 - 12:55pm PT
Ron and I just spoke on the phone. I also sent him an email, and I figure I'd cut and paste the email here:

It's clear that the routes in Zion are "eroding"; I just don't have a sense of how fast. I'm curious how soon this is going to be a problem for climbers. Right now, it isn't an issue for most of them, but I'm thinking of future generations. I view the routes as an important resource that is only important if they are climbed. If ZNP restricts the use of the routes, then effectively they destroy the resource. My concern is that ZNP is going to find out about the problem in a worst-case scenario kind of way; then install some policy that dramatically restricts the use of the routes.

My hope is that they will address the problem in a more pro-active way by gathering input from stakeholders and involve them in policy decisions. They should consider adopting Limits of Acceptable Change (LAC) framework rather than use a carrying capacity model that they presently ascribe to. The carrying capacity model does not work for these routes, because the routes are not very resistant (like granite climbs are) and do not regenerate (as vegetation does). The carrying capacity model suggests that a resource can absorb impacts if an pre-determined number of people are able to use the resource. This isn't the case with aid climbing in Zion.

The LAC framework believes that change is inevitable and that the purpose of management is not to keep things as they always have been, but to allow change to occur at a given rate. This model will allow for more appropriate management practices to develop, rather than ones built around an antiquated notion (that change will not occur). The carrying capacity model is flawed for use in recreation; it was adopted from the range management field, where there are formulas for determining how many cows can be grazed in a field before it becomes overgrazed and needs greater recovery time. Most outdoor recreational pursuits, be it climbing or camping or mountain biking or whatever, don't lend themselves well to this model.

ZNP still ascribes to the carrying capacity model though, and communicated as much in their new backcountry management plan.

Thanks so much for all the input.

Cheers,
Nate
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 7, 2007 - 01:09pm PT
Well done again, Nate.

Now,....if they'd only pay attention.
Doug Hemken

climber
Madison, WI
Nov 7, 2007 - 02:36pm PT
Why would the Park go to all that effort and expense, when this is not a pressing issue for them. If the damage reached the level of the erosion at the Practice Cliffs, or you had loud user conflict, then they would be ready to put in the effort.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 7, 2007 - 02:51pm PT
Its an opportunity for a user group to show that a responsible plan can be effected and paid for without asking the general public for a handout.
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Nov 7, 2007 - 02:56pm PT
Interesting discussion...

My last trip to Zion was October this year, I climbed hammerless and did a trade route. IMHO my impact to the environment was far less than the people who were swinging hammers on the streaked wall.

However, the thing that disturbed me was the amount of human waste I found at the base of the route and at the top. Until parties stop shitting on the ground or under a rock, I don't have a lot of hope.

My first climbing trip to Zion was in the 83 and yes, you can see the impact of climbers from the valley floor. Hauling trails didn't exist back then. Although I agree with a lot of points that have been raised in this discussion, Zion shouldn't be a place for only the elite out there, people can can whip up walls in a few hours. We all have to start somewhere.

slobmonster

Trad climber
berkeley, ca
Nov 7, 2007 - 03:30pm PT
As with most public land management issues, this one revolves around poop.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 7, 2007 - 05:00pm PT
Not really Slob.

Poop goes away. Scars of the rock do not.


JM,
I don't think it is elitist to expect that people be able AT LEAST to do the short grade V trades by fixing and firing.
There are plenty of places INCLUDING ELSEWHERE IN ZION where people can up their skills BEFORE they utilize the cream of the collection. Preferably they could acquire said skills on a more resiliant medium.
We're not talking about high number ability as much as competence. It amazes me how many try Touchstone or Prodigal or Space Shot as their very first brush with aid!

Rudeness and/or lunacy!
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Nov 7, 2007 - 06:30pm PT
Yes, poop does go away, but it takes a long time when it is wrapped in a plastic bag and stuffed under a rock!

Wag bags are not that expensive!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 9, 2007 - 08:43pm PT
Just got an email from Supt. Whitworth.

He's reading this and passing it on to the Chief and district rangers.
Messages 1 - 68 of total 68 in this topic
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