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Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 23, 2007 - 01:54am PT
Come on Shack, I thought this thread wasn't supposed to be about the war. Since you bring it up, I'll say that the war had nothing to do with Saddam if we couldn't also bring our troops there, establish a presence, and orchestrate a 'friendly' government there.

After all, Saddam offered to step down and leave to another Arab country if he could bring a billion dollars with him. We told him to shove off. That would have saved some soldiers and cash right there.



Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Oct 23, 2007 - 02:03am PT
Karl, I didn't bring up Saddam, Crowley did...
but your right, I shouldn't have acknowledged his lame post.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 23, 2007 - 02:47am PT
Well at least the semi-off topic remarks in an off-topic thread keep it bumped.

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 23, 2007 - 03:02am PT
"His final mission was on June 28, 2005, when he led a four-man Seal unit searching for a Taliban leader behind enemy lines. The Americans were spotted about 24 hours after being dropped in a mountainous stretch of eastern Afghanistan’s Kunar Province, according to the Navy. A firefight erupted. The Americans, vastly outnumbered, took cover in the steep slopes as the batted raged for more than two hours.

But then, according to Hospital Corpsman Marcus Luttrell, the unit’s only survivor that day, Lieutenant Murphy made his way toward the exposed ridge between the mountains, making him an easy target. “I was cursing at him from where I was,” he recalled in an interview. “I was saying, ‘What are you doing?’ Then I realized that he was making a call. But then he started getting hit. He finished the call, picked up his rifle and started fighting again. But he was overrun.”

The call placed by Lieutenant Murphy led American commanders to dispatch a small rescue force that included an MH-47 Chinook helicopter with eight Seals members and eight Army special operations soldiers. But a rocket-propelled grenade struck the slow-moving helicopter as it approached, killing all 16 men aboard. Lieutenant Murphy and two others in his unit were killed in the firefight. Corpsman Luttrell escaped, and took refuge in a village until he was rescued several days later.

Corpsman Luttrell and the other two men who were killed, Gunner’s Mate 2nd Class Danny P. Dietz and Sonar Technician 2nd Class Matthew G. Axelson, all received the Navy Cross.

All-in-all this sounds like a high-risk, but poorly resourced and supported DA operation plan given it was in the Pashtun-dominated northeastern Kunar province right on the border with Pakistan. It was deep into the heart of enemy-controlled territory. On a CSAR hot extraction like that I would think AC-130 gunship support would have been all but mandatory to really have had a good chance of success. Who knows whether one was planned to be available or not. In the end, though, I can't help but think this unfortunate event was at least partly a result of spreading our resources too thin over both Afghanistan and Iraq. To my way of thinking, that this was a SEAL mission at all, rather than an Army SPEC OPS one, speaks volumes to that in and of itself. Heros one and all, but it's hard not to believe this was a case where we weren't necessarily "supporting our troops" to the best of our ability.
Bart Fay

Social climber
Redlands, CA
Oct 23, 2007 - 03:08am PT
Shack, IIRC, My Brother was done standing up Six by then and had trained several
of the guys that got misused going for Noriega at that airfield.
He went back to Coronado to instruct for a couple years and then a couple more
at One, next door.

You're not gunna hear me saying that those guys are "Bad Asses".
But, each one I met was exceptional, once you got to know him.
And every one would have filled some place in "our" cherished perception
of the hard core climber lifestyle. Tarbuster to Largo...
Sorry, the Yabo's washed out. I met a few of them, too.

You should have seen the old maroon Dodge Power Wagon (50s SUV) thing that
they drove back to VA Beach when the got the call to Six. Long hair, beards,
bandanas, paisley vests even. You'd have bet they had several kilos in the back.

Wonder what they showed any Highway Patrol that chose to stop them.
Security clearances, stowed weapons, and even a little respect is my guess.

Course, I was a 16 year old kid and even then, cried that night watching them drive off
to begin their next set of adventures. I was not real psyched about him being shot at.

And Werner, we get it. You've self-actualized beyond all the rest of us.
Your depth of understanding transcends.

He's just my Brother.

Edit: And he's probably a lot like you guys.

Trad climber
South Beach, FL
Oct 23, 2007 - 12:32pm PT
They are men, doing a job. I have interacted with a lot of them, and can say that they are as human as each and every one of us. there are climbers I know that remind me of the special ops guys I have met in that they have the same ability to shut out the noise when the volume gets turned up.

In the Olympics, no one seems to care that you were the fourth best - he11, even silver and bronze medalists are considered slackers by the lethargic masses that observe what they do.

With climbers and SEALs and Olympic and professional athletes, or anyone, we are always critical of those in the elite because we expect so much from them and hang so much on them that when OUR expectations are not met, we criticize them.

We must remember though, we are all men (and women) and that is all we can be.

Note to Werner: except you of course - you have transcended all of us ;)


Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
Here's an interesting study into why some people are better suited for the rigors of Special Forces training and less succeptable to severe combat stress.

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2009 - 09:12am PT
Navy Seals save the day...again.

I was wondering what was taking so long for the Seals to resolve this thing. Nice job, Seals.

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2009 - 12:02pm PT
There is a petition to help 3 Navy Seals. Take a look at it and sign it. This is a bull$hit case against them!

The terrorist they captured was the rat who burned and hung 4 Americans in Al Anbar province.

Here's the story;

East of Seattle
Dec 9, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
If they didn't f*#k up, they'll be fine. That story you linked doesn't map to the charges though. Seems a lot was left out.

I've got a buddy who's a former SeAL. Good, scary guy. They put up with and deal with a lot of sh#t I can't even imagine. Hope everything works out okay for them. I can't stand to see soldiers on trial. Generals, Admirals, beauracrats, fine.

Dec 9, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
Navy Seals

On land, top conditioned climbers always kick the seals asses.

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
Here's more of the story;
Jason Torlano

Social climber
Dec 9, 2009 - 12:51pm PT

I have been all around the world in the Army and as a Contractor and the Military has done me right from the start of my service to the end. and the people we "U.S" have helped is amazing. Karl you should see the look in the peoples eyes when they are free and can walk down the street. My friends who have been killed or injured have all been taken care of. Stop watching CNN. Karl if you want to see how good we are doing in Afganistain take a trip to Kabul, Panshir valley etc and see how many people say thank you. War is ugly. Sometimes it is the only option for freedom which many Americans take for granted. You can not truly appreciate your freedom until you have it taken from you.

Trad climber
One drink ahead of my past.
Dec 9, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
Who fuggin cares about some ghey survival of the fittest shows.

Climbing doesn't mean sh#t either. It's a self serving wankfest compared to what these amazing warriors do selflessly for us all, every day.

Coz nailed it.

Carry on.

Son of a SEAL.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 9, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
Maybe this isn't the thread for it Jason, but you brought it up.

I confined my comments in this thread to Iraq, which was not a justified war. It's not up to us to bomb countries into accepting the freedom we think they should want. Iraq is still not better off than it was, and God only knows when it will be. Over a hundred folks died from bombs just yesterday in Bagdad. You think passing dominance from Shiites to Sunnis is really worth a trillion dollars, 2 million refugees fleeing from their homes and haven't returned, and not to mention untold thousands dying, when these guys never attacked us? If you'd like to get get permanently injured over there to change Iraqi tribal politics, perhaps I respect that but wish to protect others from that fate.

Afghanistan? The US top soldier says we're losing there, after 8 years, losing, and much of the country is a no-go zone after all this time. Soviets lost there too and they had more to lose.

"This is the most dangerous time I've seen growing up the last four decades in uniform," Adm Mike Mullen told audiences of soldiers and marines, some of whom are weeks away from flying to conflict.

"We are not winning, which means we are losing and as we are losing, the message traffic out there to [insurgency] recruits keeps getting better and better and more keep coming..."In the long run, it is not going to be about killing Taliban," he told the marines at Camp Lejeune in North Carolina. "In the long run, it's going to be because the Afghan people want them out."

So tell me, if the Afghans (who everybody says are tough as nails,) wanted what we are offering, and we have all the powerful weapons, how come the country has such huge areas under Taliban control? Doesn't add up, a weakly armed minority does not dominate a powerfully armed Majority.

Nobody likes their invader. Sure some will say thank you. Some will mean it cause they were on the outs with the old power and some say it because you're the guys with the new power.

Guys who serve in the military sometimes die in their service and often are gravely injured. We need politicians who only put them in harms way for serious and honest reasons



Coz wrote

"In all the years, I have work proudly with them, I have never heard an argument about any war, they just serve and they don't need to say anymore. I think many people do not realize the world is not a perfect place, that bad people exists, and we need warriors and heros (someone who does something greater than themselves)."

Yup, the military folks themselves are not inclined or even allowed to call bullshit on the wars that politicians send them to. We have to do it or we let down those who we are asking to die for us. It's cheap to laud the soldiers without defending them from unwise conflicts or being contaminated with DU for that matter.

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
Admiral Mullen is a f*#king disgrace to people fighting in Afghanistan. I heard that whole speech. What a dick!

First lower morale and then insinuate the mission is futile. This to Marines preparing to deploy.

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 9, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
All people who serve should be given respect and honor no matter if they are an E-1 or all the way to 4 star generals, no matter if they are lowly dish washer cooks or elite Rangers, Special Forces, SEALS, or what have you.

However, good people can go bad. Erik Prince Blackwater/Xe case in point. Also there are high-level trained assassins in the ranks right now, and these operations are ultra black-op secret. Case in point those who were there to back-up and shoot MLK Jr. if the designated assassin didn't do it. And another who confessed to assassinations and taking out our own service men who stood against these dark powers within the government and Armed Forces. The one Navy SEAL who was an assassin and who was an S-4 sentry at Area 51, Groom Lake, Papoose Lake, in Nevada comes to mind. I'll have to find the links to that and post it.

Yes, we have secret assassins, and they even answered to the devil himself, Dick Cheney, but then you guys all know that right?

Should we honor these individuals who do such evil and wickedness?

I don't think so. They are traitors and their acts are acts of treason.

Good people can go bad in a big way.
Jason Torlano

Social climber
Dec 9, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
Karl We will never agrea with each other I respect your opinion. Admiral Mullen is a politician not a warrior. My hat and thanks go out to the families of the brave and talented special operation soldiers of America who give their lives daily for our freedom.

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
The petition again.

and the story;
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 9, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
Thanks Jason

I respect your opinion as well and particularly since you've been there.

Always happy to agree to disagree and wish to maintain my respect of those in the service while holding the politicians to their word.

Now you called a military man a politician (and at that high level, he may be heavily influenced) but that just goes to show that politics affects the welfare of the troops, which is my beef.


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