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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Dec 11, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
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Bump for SEALS who don't ask, they just DO!
. . . what they are told.
What if they're told to jump in the river to retrieve someone's shoes?
So they don't ask, they just DO and they just DIE, and they were BADASS, but was it worth it?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 11, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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I don't remember saying anything negative about the Seals.
But the defenders of status quo abuse of the military here rarely show they care for the welfare of the troops. Why no discussion of how DU, gulf war syndrome and other issues need more support to keep these guys from being walking poison dumps when they return home.
Actually you are regarding them almost like the quarterbacks of your favorite football teams, taking vicarious pride in being a fan of a superstrong winning team. Make you feel good about your place in the world.
Meanwhile, the seals aren't able to make much dent in the FUBAR messes we're in. 8 years in Afghanistan and our own top soldier says we're losing. One of the Taliban's main sources of income comes from protection money our own military (and their contractors) are paying to insure safe passage of convoys on roads in enemy territory.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091130/roston
It was bad enough when we armed Al Queda and Bin Laden in the first place in Afghanistan, but then we invaded and we're still paying the enemy.
What does this have to do with the Seals? Nothing if you regard them as folk heros and not guys getting the shaft in a very, real, violent way. This culture of "support the troops" by cheerleading the mission, no matter how flawed, simply needs rebuking.
Peace
Karl
Edit: from that link
"...In this grotesque carnival, the US military's contractors are forced to pay suspected insurgents to protect American supply routes. It is an accepted fact of the military logistics operation in Afghanistan that the US government funds the very forces American troops are fighting. And it is a deadly irony, because these funds add up to a huge amount of money for the Taliban. "It's a big part of their income," one of the top Afghan government security officials told The Nation in an interview. In fact, US military officials in Kabul estimate that a minimum of 10 percent of the Pentagon's logistics contracts--hundreds of millions of dollars--consists of payments to insurgents...."
"...The real secret to trucking in Afghanistan is ensuring security on the perilous roads, controlled by warlords, tribal militias, insurgents and Taliban commanders. The American executive I talked to was fairly specific about it: "The Army is basically paying the Taliban not to shoot at them. It is Department of Defense money." That is something everyone seems to agree on...."
"...The bizarre fact is that the practice of buying the Taliban's protection is not a secret. I asked Col. David Haight, who commands the Third Brigade of the Tenth Mountain Division, about it. After all, part of Highway 1 runs through his area of operations. What did he think about security companies paying off insurgents? "The American soldier in me is repulsed by it," he said in an interview in his office at FOB Shank in Logar Province. "But I know that it is what it is: essentially paying the enemy, saying, 'Hey, don't hassle me.' I don't like it, but it is what it is."
Wars are so much about Money. Killing for it, dying for oil, and keeping the war machine churning.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 11, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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I don't get it Morgan. That link was only about a guy killed by a drone.
Which is how the military is replacing a lot of special forces missions, by robots.
Not saying whether that's good or bad, just sayin that's the war of the future, not guys throwing boats out of helicopters, but robots.
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2009 - 09:15pm PT
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The SEALs prolly had identified the target, Karl, from afar. Called it in to the CIA in Pak and BOOM, one more bad-guy gone.
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Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
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Dec 11, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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Not much to get other than I like both SEALs and Drones. You are right about un-manned platforms being the future, since the capabilities of fighter aircraft now far exceed a human beings ability to withstand G-Forces. The question is will technology be used with responsibility or will the world look more like TERMINATOR 2.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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Yes Morgan
This automation of war will make things safer for us as long as we fight third world powers without this kind of technology.
The world keeps moving though and soon tech will be the provence of terrorists who can concoct biological weapons and sneak them anywhere. We better grow up in diplomacy both here and in other countries so we don't inflict these great powers on each other for much longer.
As the technology of death becomes more powerful and stealthy, it changes the equation in unexpected ways. When guns became ubiquitous, martial arts stopped becoming very effective for defense. Someday Seals will be up against trickier threats than IEDs.
Humanity must change sooner than later or we're hosed. Seems like it could go either way at this point.
peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 11, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
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Bluering, interesting stuff about the drones find their targets from
http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-space/article/2009-06/predator-drone
"..New information is coming to light about how the US military has been directing their bombing attacks by unmanned drone aircrafts via small microchip beacons. These microchips, planted by hand by spies around the homes or meeting places of Al-Qaeda agents, send signals identifying targets for destruction, much like laser designators for smart bombs.
One of the most difficult aspects in the war being conducted in Pakistan is obtaining accurate, real-time intelligence, accessing the region, and ultimately attacking the threat. However, in the remote and mountainous regions of Waziristan and the Swat Valley in Pakistan, populated by factious tribes that may or may not be housing Al-Qaeda operatives, this has proven difficult. Over the past several years the US military has launched many missile attacks by the drone aircrafts, which have solved the problem of the access and the attack. The microchips, called “parthai” by locals, meaning “metal device” in Pashto, have solved the issue of intelligence. The chips are placed by local tribesmen, who are paid by the CIA and who have a more intimate knowledge of the community and targets."
The weird thing is that military is hardly involved in acquiring the targets or even using the drones. It's the CIA and Private industry! from
http://www.envirosagainstwar.org/know/read.php?itemid=8692
" From a secret division at its North Carolina headquarters, the company formerly known as Blackwater has assumed a role in Washington’s most important counterterrorism program: the use of remotely piloted drones to kill Al Qaeda’s leaders, according to government officials and current and former employees.
The division’s operations are carried out at hidden bases in Pakistan and Afghanistan, where the company’s contractors assemble and load Hellfire missiles and 500-pound laser-guided bombs on remotely piloted Predator aircraft, work previously performed by employees of the Central Intelligence Agency. They also provide security at the covert bases, the officials said.
The role of the company in the Predator program highlights the degree to which the CIA now depends on outside contractors to perform some of the agency’s most important assignments. And it illustrates the resilience of Blackwater, now known as Xe (pronounced Zee) Services, though most people in and outside the company still refer to it as Blackwater. It has grown through government work, even as it attracted criticism and allegations of brutality in Iraq..."
Peace
Karl
Edit, Interesting debate on drones in a conservative rag
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2009/sep/01/00016/
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2009 - 02:46pm PT
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Yeah, Karl, I've heard that too. About the small chips getting placed by 'spies'.
The CIA has full permission from the Paks to operate a drone base in their borders. The whole Pak gov't response that we're invading their borders illegally is just for internal consumption. They Paks actually want us to give them drones but we said, "nah', we'll operate them, just give us a base in country.
The story's out there, you just gotta look for it. The CIA dudes can't even leave their base or be seen for obvious reasons. Whitey in Pakiland raises suspicion.
Bottom line - we're getting it done with Pakistan. 3 successful strikes in 2 weeks. We just need to get more of our guys on the AFPak border to prevent the rats from abandoning the Pak ship.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 12, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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You aren't even in the right country Rox.
The Chinese embassy bombing was in the Balkans.
The laser designator was in the plane.
The mistake was mixing up two very similar buildings a block apart on some satellite photos.
This all happened during Clinton's "Janitor assassination campaign"
(We only bombed buildings in the middle of the night)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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Klimmer, maybe you could start a new conspiracy thread or something....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2009 - 06:31pm PT
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Bluering wrote
"Bottom line - we're getting it done with Pakistan. 3 successful strikes in 2 weeks. We just need to get more of our guys on the AFPak border to prevent the rats from abandoning the Pak ship."
I hear it is true that many Al Queda are being killed in Pakistan. Let's hope the outcome is positive. Why the question?
Gained: Poor and Isolated guys in the Pak Hinterland are being killed. How effective are they really able to be in Al Queda? It doesn't seem to be slowing the Taliban any. They got little money or way to come west right? How big a threat are these guys to anybody?
Lost: the large Pakistani population, armed with Nukes, is offended that the US is bombing within their borders. This could potentially weaken the government and put serous military and nuclear assests in militant Islamic hands. Even larger areas of Pakistan like Swat were in militant hands earlier in the year. Wassup? Shakey situation
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2009 - 07:34pm PT
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Read some of the polling of DAWN news, a PAK website....
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Nohea
Trad climber
Sunny Aiea,Hi
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Dec 12, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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I teach at a school where 65% of the students come from military families mostly from the Air Force, Navy and Army. I thank them at each parent teacher meeting and let them know how proud I am to be teacher of their child.
Once I worked out with a SEAL for about a year, biking, swimming, running. A tough guy to keep up with, He never whined and was always a hard charger.
Thank you to all those serving the Country!
Aloha,
will
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
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I was stationed in the Army in Pusan Korea 74-76. I went on a weekend outing to, I think, either Masan or Chinhae. When traveling as an serviceman, there is always a free space to stay at any military base, if they have room. I happened to put up with a platoon of SEAL's that were there on a training mission for the Korean Navy's version of the SEAL's. Needless to say, I have never felt so intimidated being around a such a group of world class athletic guys.
They did everything together and after dinner they invited me to go out drinking with them at a local bar that evening. I was sitting with the officer in charge of their platoon (whatever the Navy's equivalent of a lieutenant is) drinking and listening to the group's general noise level increase with each round. Finally, one of the group jumped up on the bar, whipped out his Johnson, and proceeded to relieve himself, with the sound of breaking glasses included in the background of the overall din.
I looked at the officer and asked "aren't you going to put a stop to this?" He turned to me and in a very drol voice said "I will, when we get a little more group participation".
I'd have these fellows in between me and the bad guys anyday.
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Jason Torlano
Social climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 09:41pm PT
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From a SEAL friend in the Nav.
Subject: Video...
This is an unbelievable story. The video is incredible.
This story is about PVT Channing Moss, who was impaled by a live RPG during a Taliban ambush while on patrol. Army protocol says that medevac choppers are never to carry anyone with a live round in him. Even though they feared it could explode, the flight crew said damn the protocol and flew him to the nearest aid station.
Again, protocol said that in such a case the patient is to be put in sandbagged area away from the surgical unit, given a shot of morphine and left to wait (and die) until others are treated. Again, the medical team ignored the protocol. Here's a seven-minute video put together by the Military Times, which includes actual footage of the surgery where Dr. John Oh, a Korean immigrant who became a naturalized citizen and went to West Point, removed the live round with the help of volunteers and a member of the EOD (explosive ordinance disposal) team.
Click link: http://www.militarytimes.com/multimedia/video/rpg_surgery/
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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I hope you enjoyed your time with your brother also away from seriousness.
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