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Jingy

Social climber
Flatland, Ca
Dec 11, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
To be sure... I did a moment of searching....

Found this:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576646,00.html

From your favorite (and possibly only news channel) FAUX...

It says what a wondereful job the SEALS did to capture some wanted dudes... but that these guys couldn't keep the detainees safe...

(I'm with you when it comes to getting the bad guys that are planning to get us (me), but when the SEALS are harolded as the elite of the elite, I have to wonder if they really are just humans with exceptional training for attack and little if no training with Tack)

These guys probably should not be charged, after all, they were doing the job assigned to them... But how they did it bares a question or 2.


More.....




http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12690379

(From a news organization most (repubs) might want to get rid of...

There is a critical member of the orgaisation (SEALS), now retired... He asks ""War's not black and white," Luttrell tells Steve Inskeep. "You can sit there and put it on paper, like, 'This is what has to be done in this certain situation.' But when you get up there on that mountain, or when you're in a battlefield, it doesn't work that way. And sometimes stuff has to be done so you can preserve the life of your men.""


So, when some of us Americans stand up and cheer for the SEALS, without knowing the bloddy details of the life of a SEAL commando, we fail them....

Like I say, I admire and respect that there are folks out there with exceptional training, and I honor them in their getting the job done... But there is way more to it then that....


Dismiss all of this.. as (I imagine) you will... just keep cheering until you find out the facts of everything... Make no mistake, none of this is connected with anything at all!


I find that the origins of the SEALS to be some good reading.. This from wikipedia:
The origins of the Navy SEALs go back to World War II when the United States Navy saw that in order for its troops to successfully land on beaches it needed brave men to reconnoitre the landing beaches, take note of obstacles and defenses, and ultimately guide the landing forces in. As a result the Amphibious Scout and Raider School was established in 1942 by joint- Army and Navy at Fort Pierce, Florida. It was intended to train explosive ordnance disposal personnel and experienced combat swimmers from the Army and Marine Corps, becoming the Naval Combat Demolition Unit, or NCDU.



So, these guys started out as guys who got in, looked around, and possibly made it safer for troops to land on the beaches... But now they are a special ops teams that go around taking lives of the enemy (again, an honorable thing in my eyes) but when they come home what kind of pride does america have for them?

Do we buy their books to show how greatful we are?
Do we watch their movies?


Or do was just say that we are proud of the job that they have done? Pat them on the shoulder and give them a high five and go on about our lives....?

And what if these heroic SEALS were being used in way different ways than the manual says:
To Provoke War, Cheney Wanted Navy Seals As Iranians
thinkprogress.org — Speaking at the Campus Progress journalism conference earlier this month, Seymour Hersh — a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist for The New Yorker — revealed that Bush administration officials held a meeting recently in the Vice President’s office to discuss ways to provoke a war with Iran.

Speaking at the Campus Progress journalism conference earlier this month, Seymour Hersh — a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist for The New Yorker — revealed that Bush administration officials held a meeting recently in the Vice President’s office to discuss ways to provoke a war with Iran.
http://digg.com/politics/To_Provoke_War_Cheney_Wanted_Navy_Seals_As_Iranians

In Hersh’s most recent article, he reports that this meeting occurred in the wake of the overblown incident in the Strait of Hormuz, when a U.S. carrier almost shot at a few small Iranian speedboats. The “meeting took place in the Vice-President’s office. ‘The subject was how to create a casus belli between Tehran and Washington,’” according to one of Hersh’s sources.
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/93463/


Yeah.. talk about honorable...
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Dec 11, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
Cragman, are you thick?

Or are you just stupid, brainless, dazed, deficient, dense, dim, doltish, dopey, dull, dumb, foolish, gullible, half-baked, half-witted, idiotic, imbecilic, insensate, mindless, moronic, naive, obtuse, out to lunch, simple, simpleminded, slow, thick-headed, trivial, unintelligent, unthinking, and witless?




this thread was about honoring our SEALS


Main Entry: honor

Part of Speech: verb

Definition: recognize, treat with respect

Synonyms: acclaim, admire, adore, aggrandize, appreciate, be faithful, be true, celebrate, commemorate, commend, compliment, decorate, dignify, distinguish, ennoble, erect, esteem, exalt, give glad hand, give key to city, glorify, hallow, keep, laud, lionize, live up to, look up to, magnify, observe, praise, prize, revere, roll out red carpet, sanctify, sublime, uprear, value, venerate, worship



orsemaj

Trad climber
Washington, DC
Dec 11, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
I live on Coronado Island, California. I have plenty of interactions swimming with the SEAL team members at the local highschool pool and they are all great guys. I also have a few friends that have gone through the SEALs officer BUD/s training.

Most of all I have also been lucky enough to have lived next door to three SEAL cadets while they were in their BUD/S training. These young men were just the nicest group I have recently had the pleasure to meet. Very humble and kind souls. They are now off on their first tour and I wish them all the best, and my thoughts are with them and their families.



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
My brother-in-law lives on Coronado too. It's that big 2-story brick house that backs up to the base. Cool guy, name's Doug. Mc P's is a cool pub too!
Double D

climber
Dec 11, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
bluering... did you get a chance to check out their obstacle course on the beach? It's pretty wild looking.

Werner: I remember when the Survival of the Fittest was taking place and this bad-ass-looking Marine (one of the competitors) walked into the Four Seasons...Dale and I though it was all over for Ron. This guy had veins on veins. Even his forehead had muscles bulging out of it. During the competition he flopped like a rag doll though and Ron, had he not pissed a certain producer during the river swim, would have won hands down.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
Double D, I think I did but I didn't get a close look at it. You can see them sometimes off the beach though, jumping out of helos for some kind of training.

My brother-in-law gets to watch during 'hell week' of their training. Pretty brutal. A team has to carry a Zodiac filled with sand a couple of miles from a spot on the base, through town, down to the beach.

Coronado's a pretty cool place.

Haven't seen that ad, Cragman.

Oh wait! this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmta7GwXCpo

Hahhaa!
WBraun

climber
Dec 11, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
What happened was the bad ass military guy went all ooohrah ooohrah and jumped into the river and almost died.

Kauk told him it's too dangerous and the guy went anyways and got sucked under "Death Rock" and never came back up for a long time.

Everyone thought he was toast. The guy thought he was toast also.

The minute he gave up and thought he was going to die and drown he stopped fighting the hole and relaxed and his feet miraculously made contact with something and he was able to push off and shoot out of the hole.

He came within seconds of drowning to death.

Bachar was on top of death rock to "maybe save" the guy just in case.

Nobody was going to jump in the river at that spot because everyone could see they'd die too that day.

The funniest part was Lynn Hill and all the women just breezed through that same event like they were floating down the Merced river in August.
coz

Trad climber
California
Dec 11, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
I would say climbers would never jump in the river.

But SEALS do.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
Here's a newer, edited version, Cragman...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7HPYZdIKL0

I knew it must have been SEALs who nabbed that bad-guy in Somalia...Check out the guy on the wing of the Apache!
WBraun

climber
Dec 11, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
Well coz the seal guy came in last and broke both legs to boot during the survival run.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf_Z5p9SbPQ&feature=related


This one's pretty cool, about halfway through they launch a boat from the back of a plane and chute in after it. Cool stuff!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhzRYMz3cwU&feature=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFE-vF8SpuU&NR=1&feature=fvwp
coz

Trad climber
California
Dec 11, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
My point is there is a higher purpose than ourselves.

My Father was a Navy diver, he dived into a river in Yosemite and saved my sister life. He didn't cowardly sit on a rock concerned only with his own survival. They should have both died but they didn't.


My point about the river is their are men who believe, who serve, who gladly go into harms way without asking questions. Is it such a problem for Karl, Klimmer, Jiggy to spares their rehashed the world isn't fair and America Sucks rant?

Could their (SEALS) lives and the lives lost defending our freedoms be honored, by us.

Freedom is a feeling all people want, it is worth fighting for, it is worth believing in. I find the most pathetic of people are those who believe nothing is worth fighting for.




John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Dec 11, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
Honoring someone includes valuing their life. If you believe the war is wrong, then it isn't honoring them to sit idly by and let them die without fighting for them. If you really thought that a war was a waste, would you just shut up and let your son or daughter go to die while others go "hoo rah"? I don't think so. You would tell your son or daughter that you loved them and you would do everything you could to get them out of harms way. That is honoring them.


Thanks go to my brother Mike and my dad for their military service in war time. My brother served during Vietnam, and I supported him by fighting against that war. My father served in the pacific during WW2.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
What makes the SEALs (and other special forces for that matter) really a unique asset to the US is their efficiency. Instead of sending tons of Marines or Rangers (God bless 'em), a SEAL team can accomplish amazing missions and never be detected, whether it's demolition, snatch-n-grabs, or 'scrubbing' someone.

In a sense, they get the job done with a small footprint.

The Somalia dude...
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/09/senior_al_qaeda_lead_7.php

SEAL sharpshooters and pirates and the rescue
http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2009/04/us-navy-seal-sharpshooters-took-out.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123953580718311447.html



The recent event in Falluja was ballsy. 3 guys go in to snatch a known terrorist from his turf. And the only reason the rat is alive is because the SEALs were probably told to do it that way.


The petition again.

http://www.indianadan.com/savetheseals

and the story;
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/navy-seals-fallujah-blackwater.html

WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Dec 11, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
Bump for SEALS who don't ask, they just DO!


. . . what they are told.


What if they're told to jump in the river to retrieve someone's shoes?

So they don't ask, they just DO and they just DIE, and they were BADASS, but was it worth it?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
I don't remember saying anything negative about the Seals.

But the defenders of status quo abuse of the military here rarely show they care for the welfare of the troops. Why no discussion of how DU, gulf war syndrome and other issues need more support to keep these guys from being walking poison dumps when they return home.

Actually you are regarding them almost like the quarterbacks of your favorite football teams, taking vicarious pride in being a fan of a superstrong winning team. Make you feel good about your place in the world.

Meanwhile, the seals aren't able to make much dent in the FUBAR messes we're in. 8 years in Afghanistan and our own top soldier says we're losing. One of the Taliban's main sources of income comes from protection money our own military (and their contractors) are paying to insure safe passage of convoys on roads in enemy territory.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091130/roston

It was bad enough when we armed Al Queda and Bin Laden in the first place in Afghanistan, but then we invaded and we're still paying the enemy.

What does this have to do with the Seals? Nothing if you regard them as folk heros and not guys getting the shaft in a very, real, violent way. This culture of "support the troops" by cheerleading the mission, no matter how flawed, simply needs rebuking.


Peace

Karl

Edit: from that link

"...In this grotesque carnival, the US military's contractors are forced to pay suspected insurgents to protect American supply routes. It is an accepted fact of the military logistics operation in Afghanistan that the US government funds the very forces American troops are fighting. And it is a deadly irony, because these funds add up to a huge amount of money for the Taliban. "It's a big part of their income," one of the top Afghan government security officials told The Nation in an interview. In fact, US military officials in Kabul estimate that a minimum of 10 percent of the Pentagon's logistics contracts--hundreds of millions of dollars--consists of payments to insurgents...."

"...The real secret to trucking in Afghanistan is ensuring security on the perilous roads, controlled by warlords, tribal militias, insurgents and Taliban commanders. The American executive I talked to was fairly specific about it: "The Army is basically paying the Taliban not to shoot at them. It is Department of Defense money." That is something everyone seems to agree on...."

"...The bizarre fact is that the practice of buying the Taliban's protection is not a secret. I asked Col. David Haight, who commands the Third Brigade of the Tenth Mountain Division, about it. After all, part of Highway 1 runs through his area of operations. What did he think about security companies paying off insurgents? "The American soldier in me is repulsed by it," he said in an interview in his office at FOB Shank in Logar Province. "But I know that it is what it is: essentially paying the enemy, saying, 'Hey, don't hassle me.' I don't like it, but it is what it is."

Wars are so much about Money. Killing for it, dying for oil, and keeping the war machine churning.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Dec 11, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
SEALs and Drones kick ass.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/12/11/pakistan.qaeda.operative/index.html
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 11, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
I don't get it Morgan. That link was only about a guy killed by a drone.

Which is how the military is replacing a lot of special forces missions, by robots.

Not saying whether that's good or bad, just sayin that's the war of the future, not guys throwing boats out of helicopters, but robots.

Peace

Karl
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
The SEALs prolly had identified the target, Karl, from afar. Called it in to the CIA in Pak and BOOM, one more bad-guy gone.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Dec 11, 2009 - 06:16pm PT
Not much to get other than I like both SEALs and Drones. You are right about un-manned platforms being the future, since the capabilities of fighter aircraft now far exceed a human beings ability to withstand G-Forces. The question is will technology be used with responsibility or will the world look more like TERMINATOR 2.
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