Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2007 - 09:10pm PT
|
And where does grit play into this question? Is it less "trad" because it's sometimes top roped before being led with very minimal natural gear. One could argue that is more pure than placing bolts on lead.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2007 - 09:19pm PT
|
sorry Tower of Power but the debble made me do it...
So ya wanna dump out yo' haul bag.
Ease on in a trad thang,
But you ain't exactly sure what is trad.
So you started to let your hair grow.
Spent big bucks on your wardrobe.
Somehow, ya know there's much more to the fad.
What is trad?
Tell me, tell me, if you think you know.
What is trad?
If you're really trad,
the question, "Will it show?"
You're into a trad fad.
Maybe trader than trad.
What is trad?
You became a part of a new breed.
Been smokin' only the best weed.
Hangin' out with the so called "Monkey set."
Seen in all the right places.
Seen with just the right faces.
You should be satisfied, but it ain't quite right.
Come on!
Tradness is. What it is!
Tradness is. What it is!
Tradness is. What it is!
Sometimes tradness is, what it ain't.
You went an' found you a guru.
In an effort to find you a new you,
And maybe even raise your conscious level.
While you're striving to find the right road,
There's one thing you should know,
"What's trad today, might become passe'."
Think about it y'all.
What is trad?
Ahhhhhhhhh!
What is trad?
I'd like to know!
What is trad?
Is it in the style of your hair?
What is trad?
Is it in the clothes that you wear?
What is trad?
I'd like to know.
What is trad?
I'd like to know.
What is trad?
What is trad y'all? Hey!
What is trad?
Hey! Oh!
What is trad?
What is trad y'all?
What is trad?
I wanna know.
What is trad?
Ahhhhhhh!
What is trad?
I wanna know what tradness is.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2007 - 09:25pm PT
|
Grit, or headpoint style, is a curious and creative hybrid, because it eschews the improvisational experience imposed by the ground up/on site approach in favor of maximizing the ecological imperative and with that, it laterally integrates and expands a studied risk scenario.
|
|
BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2007 - 10:30pm PT
|
Hey Tar, to meet nature on its own terms, don't you have to be naked and barefoot? I think I heard you tell that to Shelly many years ago...
I won't even touch that Primal Thrusting stuff.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2007 - 10:34pm PT
|
hahaha!
I dunno Brad,
I'd best refer you to Ed Hartouni's brilliant exposition just above...
|
|
BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2007 - 11:17pm PT
|
I started to read that one, couldn't finish. I have the attention span of a 52 yr old.
|
|
kevsteele
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2007 - 11:27pm PT
|
Snapped with my phone last week at the SB airport. I last saw this truck a year ago below El Cap.
|
|
rocknron
climber
Big Pine, Ca.
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2007 - 11:52pm PT
|
I climbed a lot of gunks climbs that I thought were trad climbs but some had a piton. Is a piton comparable to a bolt? If so then sport climbing has been here for a very long time.
Ron
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2007 - 12:38am PT
|
No, aid climbing is actually a subsport of golfing....or is it bowling? I'm getting confused. heh heh, jb
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2007 - 12:38am PT
|
Exactly Kevin.I have always had a problem with the word Trad.
Ken
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2007 - 12:58am PT
|
Simple...
Sport...top down 5.12 FA
Trad ground up 5.12 FA
This is call bouldering B1 FA
In my eyes...all good and all worth the effort.
|
|
le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2007 - 01:12am PT
|
Is this trad? No bolts on the climb, no toprope rehearsal. But that piece I'm about to place is a blue-black Alien hybrid. Fits perfectly in that pod, protects the crux moves, doesn't take much finesse to set, easy to trust. Those shoes? Acopa Aztecs, sticky as hell, no slip in them. I know that the FA'ists - and many, many who came before me - never used this stuff. Something's different between what I'm doing on Sundays at Sugarloaf and what was being done a generation or so ago. What's 'traditional' about hybrid Aliens?
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2007 - 01:18am PT
|
Funny Shid, I'm with John, Roy, Ed, Kevin (as I interpret his view) and mostly mr Moffet, as quoted.
Edit, even more with Bob D'.
Wrathchild puts me and many of us in all categories; which is cool since labels are bogus, but he/it loses his/her credibility when he impies that the sheild, J-Roger, et al are sportclimbs, he/she wouldn't have done that on purpose, would they?
I'm cool with climbing, some of it has more value than others; intent, respect,and comitment seem to me to be the value criteria.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2007 - 01:26am PT
|
You guys think too much .... tax your brains over this too much.
See ya on the rock.
|
|
randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2007 - 09:08am PT
|
"Whats trad about hybrid aliens?"
Simple: The Leader must not Fall!! :)
-JR
|
|
graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2007 - 10:42am PT
|
“What is Trad”
It’s a stupid word, only created to justify someone’s choice in the style they CLIMB and it’s become real twisted
Seems to me if you hang on your protection to practice your route or you top rope the sh#t out of it before you lead it you what to create a really hard route that has a big number, because you are real competitive. If you’re competitive it’s a SPORT route because Sports are competitive.
If you want to go out and climb ANY route in a manner that doesn’t weight your gear or preview the moves no matter how it was put up to me would be just CLIMBING.
Big deal, at least you still have a choice these days.
|
|
CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2007 - 10:54am PT
|
Great question and great answers. Trad is when I sweat on the approach...Trad is when I sweat on the decent...Trad is when I sweat just looking back at a climb I have just finished....Trad is when I say yeah that climb is worth repeating.
Brian
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2007 - 10:58am PT
|
They seem different but I agree with both of these definitions.
bachar:
Traditional climbing means ground up, on-sight (without having been there before), first ascensionism - whether it is free, aid, or mixed. Trad routes can be repeated but the style of the first "ascent" determines if it is trad or not.
Trad and sport are not laser-sharp distinctions. There are many shades of gray in between as we've seen on this thread and a hundred others like it. BUT, I think John's definition above -- trad = onsight, ground-up FA -- pretty well anchors the ideal at the end of the trad spectrum. When I think of the "most traditional" climbs I've done, they fit this criterion.
BUT ALSO in practice, most climbers most of the time aren't climbing unknown ground. Tarbuster gives a thoughtful description of the spirit of trad and sport climbing, in that wide gray area we're actually most often climbing.
Tarbuster:
In traditional climbing, we meet the natural environment on its own terms in order to test our resourcefulness and responsiveness and to perform a style of physical expression whose primary thrust is improvisational: the nature of the engagement is complementary to the medium and the secrets are unfolded simultaneously with the action. In music the analog would be improvisational jazz.
In sport climbing, we study and reorganize the natural environment such that we create an apparatus upon which to practice a complex and sustained routine; the primary thrust is the containment of the variables in pursuit of an optimized athletic and kinesthetic experience. In music the analog would be a highly scripted symphonic arrangement.
|
|
Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2007 - 11:24am PT
|
I like the OTHER definition of "Ground Up"... Applies best to Chimneys and OW's...
|
|
TwistedCrank
climber
Caution: Filling may be hot.
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2007 - 11:25am PT
|
"Trad" was something I was called by someone who I suppose was some other kind of climber. This, after I explained to him the types of climbing I did back when I roped up and the values I had when I did it.
I had pretty much been ignoring what other climbers were up for maybe 15 years - just sneaking off to secret bouldering areas and soloing high peaks.
When he called me "trad" I felt so dirty, so cheap, so used. I had to look up what it meant and that's when I found out how divisive the whole debate had become.
I wished I'd never left my cave. Oh well..
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!