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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 23, 2007 - 04:02am PT
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Is it all natural gear? Or is it ground up? What is sport climbing and how many bolts do you place to make it a sport climb? I agree that routes should be ground-up to give subsequent ascents the same feel as the first ascencionists (sp) and "Ground Up" will give the routes personality and the first leaders an incredible experience. I am curious and definitely not the best mentor but, I can see this question being important in future access issues. By the way, I am all for being safe and respect others that push the limits. When does Trad become Sport?
Ken
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couchmaster
climber
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Sep 23, 2007 - 08:50am PT
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Tough question.....
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Sep 23, 2007 - 11:40am PT
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Trad= gound up, natural pro, bolts on lead, usually more runout due to the nature of the climbing.
Sport= usually more closely spaced bolts placed on rap, with seemingly shorter pitch length.
IMHO
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 23, 2007 - 11:45am PT
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After pondering the question, for years, I've come up with this:
Trad Climbing is starting from the ground and going to the top with the intent of never weighting your gear. Every lead is an onsight, flash, or red-point attempt. That's the Trad mindset.
Sport climbing has a more nebulous definition. While onsight, flash, and red-point attempts are all part of Sport, the emphasis is on hard moves and shorter climbs. In general, you shouldn't have to worry about gear, or the falls you might take, when you're really Sport Climbing. Also, all you need is one rope ;-)
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 23, 2007 - 12:10pm PT
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Traditional climbing means ground up, on-sight (without having been there before), first ascensionism - whether it is free, aid, or mixed. Trad routes can be repeated but the style of the first "ascent" determines if it is trad or not.
In my opinion....blah, blah....jb
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 23, 2007 - 12:16pm PT
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In traditional climbing, we meet the natural environment on its own terms in order to test our resourcefulness and responsiveness and to perform a style of physical expression whose primary thrust is improvisational: the nature of the engagement is complementary to the medium and the secrets are unfolded simultaneously with the action. In music the analog would be improvisational jazz.
In sport climbing, we study and reorganize the natural environment such that we create an apparatus upon which to practice a complex and sustained routine; the primary thrust is the containment of the variables in pursuit of an optimized athletic and kinesthetic experience. In music the analog would be a highly scripted symphonic arrangement.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Sep 23, 2007 - 12:25pm PT
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If you own a power drill, it's sport.
If you are wearing shoes that have been out of production for more than a decade, it is trad.
If your car is less than 5 years old, it is sport.
If duct tape is a fundamental component of your car, it is trad.
If you are on the FA thinking what you are going to name it, it is DEFINATELY sport.
If you are on the FA thinking what you are going to name the child you have when you quit climbing, because you think you are going to die in the next five minutes and realize you wanted to do more with your life, well, then THAT is TRAD!!!
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 23, 2007 - 12:26pm PT
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Whoah!
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ADK
climber
truckee
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Sep 23, 2007 - 12:53pm PT
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My definition is considerably looser than many of those above. Ive always felt that traditional climbs were put up with the use of natural protection in mind. If an 80' climb has 5 bolts to protect the face moves but no artificial protection where natural placements are possible, than that is trad. That being said, most traditionalists adhere to a ground-up ethic and would choose FAs with lots of natural pro.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 23, 2007 - 01:04pm PT
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I like these definitions!
Here's how I think about it, though it is limited in it's applicability...
A sport climb is intentionally created to remove the concern of protection from the climb.
A trad climb is intentionally created to require the concern of protection on the climb.
This is a generalization of my own experience on sports climbs, when I realized that a lot of what I usually think about on trad climbs is about protecting the climb.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 23, 2007 - 01:32pm PT
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As far as I can remember, the term "traditional" climbing first appeared after the inception of "rappel bolting" in order to distinguish the two from each other. Before rappel bolting, "trad" climbing was merely called "climbing" and meant that one climbed or ascended starting at the bottom of the cliff.
Maybe it would be better to use the terms "ground-up" and "top-down" ?
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Sep 23, 2007 - 02:38pm PT
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John, didn't you propose the original " M " (mixed) grade for FAs to address that grey area? The old Tuolumne book used to denote such taints in an appendix.....what happened?
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JAK
climber
The Souf
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Sep 23, 2007 - 05:04pm PT
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I would delineate as follows:
Trad: Ground up, clean protection if possible, runouts if not, and bolting only under the following circumstances:
1) No other pro available
2) Done on lead
3) By hand
4) Only to prevent a death fall (NOT an injury fall)
even then, consider the level of climbing. If the moves through this unprotectable section are moderate, then rate it 5.7X or whatever and leave it to the bold.
Make the climber use their judgement to be safe - don't pepper the cliff with fixed gear so the stupid can survive. They annoy the rest of us.
Sport: Bolted on rap, cleaned, often prior route inspection. Routes tend to be short, steep, and in many cases contrived and stupid (had to get a shot in! I do sport climb from time to time and enjoy it!).
Done for the masses. Weekend warrior climbers who don't want to bother with judgement, route finding, committment, or understanding safety systems and equipment usage. Good physical training for trad/wall climbers and mountaineers...aka actual climbers...to work on their rock technique.
h'ok, I think I've offended enough people under 35 for the day. Let the flames begin!
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Sep 23, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
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For free climbs my rule is simple, if there is a bolt on it, anywhere, it is sport. Period, end of sentence.
And yes, I'm over 35.
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JAK
climber
The Souf
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Sep 23, 2007 - 05:15pm PT
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So, hypothetical situation:
You have a 600 foot granite slab route, goes around 5.9
There are only two places to place protection, one on the 2nd pitch, one on the fourth. The rest of the pitches have no protection/belays.
Can you bolt it on lead, by hand, with 40-60 foot runouts and still call it a trad route, or nay?
I'm just wondering, because per your prior statement, we'd have to have left this gem to the soloists.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Sep 23, 2007 - 05:21pm PT
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Do what you want, have fun with your life.
But don't drill a bolt and say it's trad, for with that lie you murder some part of the world.
You put up a sport route. What is the shame in that, that you have to call it trad because you defaced the rock on lead?
Yeah, B.Y. - sport route. A damn bold one, but that doesn't make it trad.
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JAK
climber
The Souf
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Sep 23, 2007 - 05:24pm PT
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Oh, don't get me wrong - I didn't put it up. But it was a damn fun route, and it's considered trad round here because it was bolted ground up, by hand, on lead the whole way (including the belay stations which are all you get for the 3rd, 5th, and 6th pitch - no pro whatsoever but easy climbing).
(when I said "we'd have to have left this gem to the soloists" I was referring to the local community, not myself/partner as the FA team - we weren't)
Just clarifying your perspective a bit. I myself don't really see the harm in removing the death fall from certain routes through the use of hand drilled, on lead, on sight bolts when there is no other option.
But, not everyone agrees with me, and I understand that.
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JAK
climber
The Souf
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Sep 23, 2007 - 05:32pm PT
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God I love the confidence boost from a good slung gecko.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 23, 2007 - 05:42pm PT
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I can't define it, but I know it when I lead it.......
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tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
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Sep 23, 2007 - 06:32pm PT
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What about free climbs done with pins for protection in super thin cracks that won't take other gear? The FA's used them and removed them and there is no other pro that will work.
On another note, what specifically is 'ground up'? What spectrum of style follows?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 23, 2007 - 09:10pm PT
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And where does grit play into this question? Is it less "trad" because it's sometimes top roped before being led with very minimal natural gear. One could argue that is more pure than placing bolts on lead.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 23, 2007 - 09:19pm PT
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sorry Tower of Power but the debble made me do it...
So ya wanna dump out yo' haul bag.
Ease on in a trad thang,
But you ain't exactly sure what is trad.
So you started to let your hair grow.
Spent big bucks on your wardrobe.
Somehow, ya know there's much more to the fad.
What is trad?
Tell me, tell me, if you think you know.
What is trad?
If you're really trad,
the question, "Will it show?"
You're into a trad fad.
Maybe trader than trad.
What is trad?
You became a part of a new breed.
Been smokin' only the best weed.
Hangin' out with the so called "Monkey set."
Seen in all the right places.
Seen with just the right faces.
You should be satisfied, but it ain't quite right.
Come on!
Tradness is. What it is!
Tradness is. What it is!
Tradness is. What it is!
Sometimes tradness is, what it ain't.
You went an' found you a guru.
In an effort to find you a new you,
And maybe even raise your conscious level.
While you're striving to find the right road,
There's one thing you should know,
"What's trad today, might become passe'."
Think about it y'all.
What is trad?
Ahhhhhhhhh!
What is trad?
I'd like to know!
What is trad?
Is it in the style of your hair?
What is trad?
Is it in the clothes that you wear?
What is trad?
I'd like to know.
What is trad?
I'd like to know.
What is trad?
What is trad y'all? Hey!
What is trad?
Hey! Oh!
What is trad?
What is trad y'all?
What is trad?
I wanna know.
What is trad?
Ahhhhhhh!
What is trad?
I wanna know what tradness is.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 23, 2007 - 09:25pm PT
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Grit, or headpoint style, is a curious and creative hybrid, because it eschews the improvisational experience imposed by the ground up/on site approach in favor of maximizing the ecological imperative and with that, it laterally integrates and expands a studied risk scenario.
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BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
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Sep 23, 2007 - 10:30pm PT
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Hey Tar, to meet nature on its own terms, don't you have to be naked and barefoot? I think I heard you tell that to Shelly many years ago...
I won't even touch that Primal Thrusting stuff.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 23, 2007 - 10:34pm PT
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hahaha!
I dunno Brad,
I'd best refer you to Ed Hartouni's brilliant exposition just above...
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BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
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Sep 23, 2007 - 11:17pm PT
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I started to read that one, couldn't finish. I have the attention span of a 52 yr old.
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kevsteele
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 23, 2007 - 11:27pm PT
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Snapped with my phone last week at the SB airport. I last saw this truck a year ago below El Cap.
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rocknron
climber
Big Pine, Ca.
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Sep 23, 2007 - 11:52pm PT
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I climbed a lot of gunks climbs that I thought were trad climbs but some had a piton. Is a piton comparable to a bolt? If so then sport climbing has been here for a very long time.
Ron
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 24, 2007 - 12:38am PT
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No, aid climbing is actually a subsport of golfing....or is it bowling? I'm getting confused. heh heh, jb
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2007 - 12:38am PT
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Exactly Kevin.I have always had a problem with the word Trad.
Ken
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 24, 2007 - 12:58am PT
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Simple...
Sport...top down 5.12 FA
Trad ground up 5.12 FA
This is call bouldering B1 FA
In my eyes...all good and all worth the effort.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Sep 24, 2007 - 01:12am PT
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Is this trad? No bolts on the climb, no toprope rehearsal. But that piece I'm about to place is a blue-black Alien hybrid. Fits perfectly in that pod, protects the crux moves, doesn't take much finesse to set, easy to trust. Those shoes? Acopa Aztecs, sticky as hell, no slip in them. I know that the FA'ists - and many, many who came before me - never used this stuff. Something's different between what I'm doing on Sundays at Sugarloaf and what was being done a generation or so ago. What's 'traditional' about hybrid Aliens?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 24, 2007 - 01:18am PT
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Funny Shid, I'm with John, Roy, Ed, Kevin (as I interpret his view) and mostly mr Moffet, as quoted.
Edit, even more with Bob D'.
Wrathchild puts me and many of us in all categories; which is cool since labels are bogus, but he/it loses his/her credibility when he impies that the sheild, J-Roger, et al are sportclimbs, he/she wouldn't have done that on purpose, would they?
I'm cool with climbing, some of it has more value than others; intent, respect,and comitment seem to me to be the value criteria.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 24, 2007 - 01:26am PT
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You guys think too much .... tax your brains over this too much.
See ya on the rock.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Sep 24, 2007 - 09:08am PT
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"Whats trad about hybrid aliens?"
Simple: The Leader must not Fall!! :)
-JR
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Sep 24, 2007 - 10:42am PT
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“What is Trad”
It’s a stupid word, only created to justify someone’s choice in the style they CLIMB and it’s become real twisted
Seems to me if you hang on your protection to practice your route or you top rope the sh#t out of it before you lead it you what to create a really hard route that has a big number, because you are real competitive. If you’re competitive it’s a SPORT route because Sports are competitive.
If you want to go out and climb ANY route in a manner that doesn’t weight your gear or preview the moves no matter how it was put up to me would be just CLIMBING.
Big deal, at least you still have a choice these days.
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Sep 24, 2007 - 10:54am PT
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Great question and great answers. Trad is when I sweat on the approach...Trad is when I sweat on the decent...Trad is when I sweat just looking back at a climb I have just finished....Trad is when I say yeah that climb is worth repeating.
Brian
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 24, 2007 - 10:58am PT
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They seem different but I agree with both of these definitions.
bachar:
Traditional climbing means ground up, on-sight (without having been there before), first ascensionism - whether it is free, aid, or mixed. Trad routes can be repeated but the style of the first "ascent" determines if it is trad or not.
Trad and sport are not laser-sharp distinctions. There are many shades of gray in between as we've seen on this thread and a hundred others like it. BUT, I think John's definition above -- trad = onsight, ground-up FA -- pretty well anchors the ideal at the end of the trad spectrum. When I think of the "most traditional" climbs I've done, they fit this criterion.
BUT ALSO in practice, most climbers most of the time aren't climbing unknown ground. Tarbuster gives a thoughtful description of the spirit of trad and sport climbing, in that wide gray area we're actually most often climbing.
Tarbuster:
In traditional climbing, we meet the natural environment on its own terms in order to test our resourcefulness and responsiveness and to perform a style of physical expression whose primary thrust is improvisational: the nature of the engagement is complementary to the medium and the secrets are unfolded simultaneously with the action. In music the analog would be improvisational jazz.
In sport climbing, we study and reorganize the natural environment such that we create an apparatus upon which to practice a complex and sustained routine; the primary thrust is the containment of the variables in pursuit of an optimized athletic and kinesthetic experience. In music the analog would be a highly scripted symphonic arrangement.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Sep 24, 2007 - 11:24am PT
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I like the OTHER definition of "Ground Up"... Applies best to Chimneys and OW's...
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TwistedCrank
climber
Caution: Filling may be hot.
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Sep 24, 2007 - 11:25am PT
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"Trad" was something I was called by someone who I suppose was some other kind of climber. This, after I explained to him the types of climbing I did back when I roped up and the values I had when I did it.
I had pretty much been ignoring what other climbers were up for maybe 15 years - just sneaking off to secret bouldering areas and soloing high peaks.
When he called me "trad" I felt so dirty, so cheap, so used. I had to look up what it meant and that's when I found out how divisive the whole debate had become.
I wished I'd never left my cave. Oh well..
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 24, 2007 - 11:28am PT
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Techinicaly. sport = all fixed protection drilled on lead or rap. G or PG rated.
Trad = you place your own gear where available face/slab may be bolt protected. Any fixed gear was placed on the lead. Protection may be from G to X
Stupid = all fixed pro. Rap bolted R or X rated.
Personaly I feel that the ultamate trad climbing experience happens when I have pins, hooks a hammer and a hand drill hanging off my harness and I am headded into new territory:)
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Sep 24, 2007 - 11:35am PT
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trad=ego
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 24, 2007 - 12:44pm PT
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sport = ego
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TwistedCrank
climber
Caution: Filling may be hot.
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Sep 24, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
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If trad = ego
and sport = ego
then trad = sport
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 24, 2007 - 12:49pm PT
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Case closed.
Now where is my rope...
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Sep 24, 2007 - 12:53pm PT
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So if trad climbing =sport climbing =ego
If no ego then no climbing?
-JR
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Sep 24, 2007 - 01:11pm PT
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What is Trad? See the Tuolumne Appreciation thread. That's it!
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Sep 24, 2007 - 03:39pm PT
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Ground up is important to traditionalists, but is not the defining criteria. Some sport routes were/are installed ground up because, for example, they can't rap in for some reason.
Hard to sum up trad in one sentence. Bolts clearly don't fall on one side or the other, though a lot of 20-somethings equate the word trad with "gear only." As to climbs with bolts, I've always liked John Byrnes' (aka Lord Slime) succinct, and in my opinion definitive, sport climbing definition:
"No, I'd say a sport climb is (usually) bolted in a way to
minimize the risk during a fall, with the intended purpose
being to allow the climber to focus on the moves and not
the consequences of a fall."
Hence, B-Y is not a sport route, but Shipoopi is. Needle and Spoon is a sport route, but Piece of Grass most definitely is not.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Sep 25, 2007 - 05:00pm PT
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Follow up note on Wikipedia link: I will confess to writing some sections there, for better or worse; but, as with any Wik entries, bunches of people keep tuning, changing, adding until, well, one gets what one gets. Mysteriously, the current result in this case (of course it is never final) seems pretty good. Note also there is a link to another Wik page on sport climbing, also not bad.
Final note: some may wish to visit the "discussion" tabs when viewing these Wik pages to see how people debated certain changes. The section is revealing on the variety of interpretations and how the term is evolving, just as any language and especially English seems to do, adding and shedding connotations with time and new usage.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 25, 2007 - 05:15pm PT
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I was curious as to the identity of the author on that Wiki piece and was going to reply to the Warbler’s comment about it being pretty accurate coming from a non-climbing source; my response was going to be “Kevin, that description is much too concise to have come from anybody other than a central figure in the climbing community”.
And so it did: it is clean, thorough, sober and represents a nearly perfectly detailed account of the matter.
Good job Tom & Wikipedia staff.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Sep 25, 2007 - 08:05pm PT
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No Jaybro, I clearly made the distinction of freeclimbing.
Aid rules, especially big walls, are fundamentally different.
No one is ONLY any kind of climber. These terms only apply to routes. To talk about people, there are Climbers, and Mountaineers. Oh I almost forgot Hikers and Punters...
A key indicator to me is the fact that people want to portray themselves as "Trad". So much F'ing BS in this sport today, and so little real sack.
And Jolly Roger was f'ing STOUT! But I thought Tempest was technically more difficult.
To others, a pin is NOT the same as a bolt. And what is so bad about top ropping? Personally, I'd much rather people did that than spray bolts all over a crag.
And Le Bruce, that is CERTAINLY trad.
Crusty ole bastid, over and out.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 25, 2007 - 08:24pm PT
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A silly Canadian I know could solve this problem pretty easily... He'd simply say, "Shut the f*#k up and climb, buddy!"
Sounds like good advice to me.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Sep 25, 2007 - 08:35pm PT
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No hooks, stance only...no friggin, bulldogs or blowboys...
at least according to my "teachers"
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Sep 25, 2007 - 08:45pm PT
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Best post ever on the subject.....Username - Duncan......thread - Hardest Trad route in the world... too busy to find it right now, but look it up.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 26, 2007 - 02:13am PT
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Just for the sake of conversation, and I mean of the exploratory variety (which is what I enjoy about these threads) and not the postural, chest beating type: what I find edifying about that Wikipedia definition of trad is that it is fairly accurate etymology, because it is couched in historical terms. To really understand trad is primarily to understand it as a term which was offered in response to the emergence of sport climbing.
As has been said up thread, before sport climbing, before the term trad was coined, we just called it all climbing, yet even so, there were varying degrees of accepted practices in terms of purity and style. The modern use of the term has morphed to mean quite a few things, sometimes too specific, sometimes too broad; not all of them germane to the historical context of the usage which was largely divisive in nature; meaning it was all either sport or trad, and that was the scope of the term’s usage.
One example, also noted up thread, pointing to how the definition of trad has diverged and morphed: I see younger climbers, referring to anything that is purely gear oriented as trad. Often, what they're talking about is head pointing. Now that's a cool thing, but it is not really what was accepted in the state's prior to the appearance of sport climbing, so to be true to original usage, it isn't trad for us in the states, while it may well be for the Brits.
So this is one reason why it's hard to define trad: style wise, everything that preceded sport climbing has been lumped into the concept of trad, that was its definition, and although trad was typically ground up, as you can see by some of the posts of up thread, some people would say that more pure styles were likewise “more trad”, such as no bolting in the Gunks being more trad (more pure really) compared to bolting in Tuolumne Meadows. These are really internal distinctions, for it was all trad.
Concurrent with the coinage of the term trad, accepted styles were still evolving: John Bachar perhaps expanded the concept to allow drilling from hooks on steeper terrain. Yet if you follow his argument carefully, it was an outgrowth of freeing aid routes, which were put in from the ground up, so it was just a finer distinction of previously accepted styles. So, even as the term trad arose, the exact activities which it circumscribed were not that clear. This is ultimately what makes the question “what is trad?” an interesting one.
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