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Ola Girl
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 7, 2007 - 06:32pm PT
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How much is customary to tip a guide? I typically tip 20-25% of the price of the class - is this too much, too little or just right? Should I base it off something else other than the price of the course?
What if I had someone guide me up The Nose? The cost of that is $3,200.
I'd like to hear from the guides out there since this is probably a big part of how you make a living....
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Welcome Ola. Get ready to duck.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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duck? Whatever do you mean?
Anyway Ola, in the climbing guide biz the baseline is 50%. 100% if the guide provides outstanding service and you aren't maimed.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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give what you can afford
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andanother
climber
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$3200 just so you can tell your friends you, uh, "climbed" the Nose?
If you're using a guide, then you aren't really going to climb the Nose. So, if you're going to lie to your friends, why pay $3200 (plus tip)?
Wouldn't it be cheaper to take a helicopter to the top?
Or just drive a motorcycle and pay the fine. Is the fine more than $3000?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Nice of you to ask Ola.
While I don't have a definitive answer, it is worth noting the guide makes less than a tennis pro and much less than a plumber.
If either of those other professionals fails in the worst way, the outcome is disproportionately less serious than it would be for the guide/client scenario. Think of the risk management burden for the guide: they are woefully underpaid.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Much in like other tipping venues, go with your heart. If a guide has superb "soft skills", reward them well.
3200 and no hauling? Could be a great deal depending on your "position" in life...not everyone has the time to put in to get proficient at "hanging on gear", but some have the $ to plunk to do the Cap. Why fight the "free market" (cough, cough).
The guys that I took up the Captain always did a yeomans job of belaying and/or hauling. Even if you do it Osbourne style, you still climbed it in my book....
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Um, andanother, I don't think she said she was going to use a guide to climb the nose. She used it as an example. And so what if she did? Are you the nose police or something?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Classy post, tarbouse. I always felt that since guiding a venture such as the cap or HAM is "24 hours per day" the hourly wage breakdown is kind of miserly.
Especially since there's (usually) no benes...
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Ouch!
climber
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I thought this thread was about cow tipping.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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You should practice on prairie outhouses first - they stay still. Then move on to cows. All going well, you can then try it on a guide.
If the tip is in the form of coins, the guide's bound to tip. For example, say the fee is $3,000. A 15% tip would be $450, which works out to:
45,000 pennies @ 2.5 g = 112.5 kg
9,000 nickels @ 5.0 g = 45 kg
4,500 dimes @ 2.268 g = 10.2 kg
1,800 quarters @ 5.67 g = 10.2 kg
(masses from U.S. mint website)
It looks like pennies should get you a guaranteed tip, if nothing else.
More seriously, guiding is part of the service industry, and at least in North America tipping is customary for good service. There are some guides who frequent SuperTopo who should be able to provide guidance.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I guided professionally from 1979 to 1989. In the late 80s, ‘87, and ‘88 in particular, I guided an El Capitan route each season, and that brought my daily average to 95 bucks. When I moved to Colorado in 1990 I started working for a guiding school out here and at that time, they dropped the wage from $100 a day to $70.
So it's a choice, and that's what the market will bear, but it ain't pretty. I don't think that it's that much better now (even double, so what): at the end of the 80s at YMS, I was outspoken that El Capitan should be at least $3000 to the client.
The first time up The Nose, my pay was $1200 (after taxes I got about $550). The client tipped me $800 to make it an even $2000.
The degree of craftsmanship, focus, responsibility, even for teaching basic classes is quite high. Once the guide acquires the basics for conveying the technical matter and imposing reasonable safeguards, as stated above, soft skills are a considerable part of the package for which you would consider appropriate remuneration.
The most important aspect of guiding for which there is a dearth of understanding in our country, is the aspect of risk mitigation. The natural variables of the wilds, the multifaceted vicissitudes of vertical terrain and nature’s whims in general cannot be put in complete check by the guide. When you hire a guide, you are still assuming risk, you're just making a decision to stack the deck in your favor and likewise decrease the odds of mishap, and yes by quite a bit, but not completely.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I couldn't put it any better than Tar (and I have some experience guiding, and got my AMGA cert in '90).
25% seems like a good rule of thumb as I often do the same for food servers who run substantially lesser risks in my behalf.
But if you come across a guide that is both highly competent and personally compatable who performs admirably in the face of daunting conditions the sky's the limit. Guides don't make nearly enough, constantly being undercut by hero wannabes, so how much is your life worth anyway?
Let 'em know.
I can name you a dozen great guides who gave it up unable to earn a living.
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J. Werlin
climber
Cedaredge
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. . .the multifaceted vicissitudes of vertical terrain. . .
And if the guide has a literary vocabulary like Tarbuster? Some extra to help payback student loans would be good form.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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A bit of a thread drift here, but If a guide in America is properly certified, shouldn't they be able to guide any park or mountain as they do in Canada? What do you guides think. It sure seems reasonable to me.
Why is so much politics and permit BS involved?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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They are doing more than keeping the soup warm, anything under $100/day (8hrs) is fairly miserly, for ground school, walls have higher risks/responsisibilities.
Tar, if you still want to pursue that line of employment, I can steer you toward erratic work @ ~twice the pay you mentioned, could be more if you're down with llamas. Same state, higher county (mostly).
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can comment, but I believe that a member of the Association of Canadian Mountain Guides is legally permitted to guide in Canadian national parks. A separate permit is required for provincial parks, e.g. the Bugaboos, or for provincial land outside parks - in B.C., about 80% of the province. Essentially, a commercial tenure (license) of some kind.
So a variety of permits may be required, depending on where the work occurs. A non-Canadian may also have to obtain permission from immigration.
For full disclosure, I should admit that I am (or at least was) a certified climbing instructor - in Norway.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Cool Mighty Hiker!
So if you can get me ‘n Jaybro up the Troll Wall, we will graciously double the usual one sixpack gratuity.
Thanks for the offer Jay,
Man I could use the work, any work: I may keep that offer of yours on my long list. Currently, I can't type or drive a car without getting pumped and I can coil rope, maybe lead a pitch, once a week tops. The wheels are coming off I tell ya’.
Hopefully my newfangled Doc can help pull my rudder out of the sand!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Two six packs might cause me to be ... tipsy.
Sadly, a big piece of Trollveggen fell off about a decade ago, including important bits of several popular routes. It's climbable, but rather an adventure. Luckily there are equally good and long climbs in Norway, on better rock. Plus Lofoten, which I hope to visit next year.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Whut kin I say, Roy? Sqwakin' in your venacular is a rare contribution. Not big on recompense, though.
We aren't tippping over, are we?
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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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here's a tip...don't try and make a living guiding.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I'm a little tighter with the tipping. 20-25% sounds like the top end unless the base fee was rediculously low (Thailand..) or something extraordinary happened - 10% a minimum (50 bucks the minimum, really..). The $1200 fee with $800 tip - I'd be interested to hear if that was typical. I know it happens from time to time, but the guides I talk to just as often get nothing at all. Nada. In the end, with the above guidelines, I guess it just depends. Some places are a little more expensive with the base fee, maybe it's a larger group of people so less individualized and more people giving tips, maybe someone did a good or bad job - it just depends. But, the pay is the pay. Life is full of choices. I'd like to earn more money, too, and some days feel like I'm undervalued and overworked, but I made my choices about it all and know where the door is.
JLP
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Wally,
Yes, $1,200 in ‘87; I may have received a little more the next year for the Salathe. I think we collectively bumped the fee for El Cap to about $1,600 (guides take) at the end of the season in ’88. I proposed at the time taking it straight to $3000 (gross fee to the client, with $1,800 representing the guide's take), and the director said, "hey, you're going to price yourself out of a job": to which I replied, “bring it on”).
And yes, JLP,
The $800 tip was way off the charts: that was a very rich client, who was paying me to guide her favorite Italian guide. And I would say at that time a culture of tipping was virtually nonexistent. Very occasionally I would get a nice tip. And yes, we all knew that there was no long-standing legacy of guiding in this country upon which to leverage a consummate wage. Eventually I found the door.
I still have a couple of clients from that era and today they are old friends.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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If I remember correctly from my guiding days, tipping your guide with sex is likely most appreciated. Makes the math on tipping easier, too.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Most guides would rather work than not work, so if you can barely afford to go, better to go and tip small or not at all.
Otherwise, if the fees are in line with your other expenses, tip what you feel and can afford. It beats supporting walmart and Mcdonalds.
Peace
Karl
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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My era as a full time guide was about the same as the eloquent Tarbousier's, and some fine times were had working together at YMS, eh Roy!
The tipping culture has really changed. In the early 80's it was kind of rare, I think we were just as skilled, supportive, and nice but it often seemed like the clients felt they would somehow cheapen the experience by doing something as crass as offering a bit of cash at the end of it.
A number of times I had the experience of sharing clients in the same day with my waitress girlfriend. Some father would hug me, slightly teary eyed, saying the day had been a real breakthrough for his kids and family, leaving me with sincere appreciation, then they would sit on Lynda's restaurant station, give her a bunch of grief, but leave her $20 bucks.
These days the specialized adventure service economy is more entrenched, and tipping seems the norm. 99% of my guiding these days is with teenagers, and I get small grants from the county to support the work. Never get a cash tip but I find it more rewarding in many ways.
I have guided the Nose four times and Half Dome three, pretty sure I got everyone beat for the lowest big wall pay from YMS. I think the first client on the Nose in 83 or 84 was charged $700, and I got $420!
I disagree with the disparagement of those who would seek to follow an expert up the Nose. There is a lot involved with becoming competent in that setting. I think of an analogy with sailing. If I jumped on a yacht to crew a trip to Hawaii, I would work hard to learn new skills and carefully follow instruction, I would be scared and thrilled and overwhelmed at times, I would never make the decisions or lead the process, but I would find it a total adventure none the less.
As with any job, finding a larger vision and context for what you are doing helps to mitigate low pay. Early on in Yosemite I realized I was not just a climbing or skiing guide, but someone who could design, facilitate and on the best days even manifest transformational experiences. Self delusional I may be, but this idea has kept me motivated through a lot of interesting, underfunded yet rewarding work, and some business wins and losses.
Peter
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yeah.
I used to tell myself that too.
Then I started making REAL money elsewhere.
LOL
cheers Peter
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Gimp
Trad climber
Grand Junction
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Sitting here in my office paying bills and checking the mail after a night on call. To keep things in perspective in the current economy. Spent 6 hours in the ED sewing up everything from lip lacs to a machete wound to the head last night from 10 pm to 4 am. Pay $0.00 since all were uninsured and unemployed.
Just opened a check for a workers comp thumb replant in a 23 year old who didn't not know how to run a chop saw (he's not dating one of my front desk girls). $1099.00.
Your pay dosen't look so bad!!
As an aside, despite it all I still like what I do.
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Ola Girl
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2007 - 07:49pm PT
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To clarify…Am I going to pay a guide $3,200 + tip to take me up El Cap? Yes. Will I feel like I’m cheating because I’m not leading half of the pitches? Yes. Do I care? No.
Why pay a guide? There are plenty of people I would climb a 500’ trad route with, but there are only 2 people I would trust to climb a 3,000’ big wall route with. One of them has chronic injuries and no desire to climb El Cap, and the other one started a family and does not climb much anymore. I value my life too much to roam around Camp 4 looking for any old John or Jane Doe big wall partner. I’d rather pay a guide from a well-known climbing school because I know they have a reputation to uphold, and their intentions are to keep us both as safe as possible while also having a good time, (in the clean sense of the word.)
Am I doing this to impress my friends? No. Most of my friends do not even know what El Cap is so would not be impressed anyway. I am doing this for one simple reason – because I want to do it. What I will lose by not leading part of the route myself I will gain in peace of mind by not having to fret about the person at the other end of the rope. I am just thankful there are people willing to put their life on the line for people like me, and I think they deserve a good tip.
Thanks to all of you for the great tipping advice and encouragement (and also the comedy relief!)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Peter wrote
"As with any job, finding a larger vision and context for what you are doing helps to mitigate low pay. Early on in Yosemite I realized I was not just a climbing or skiing guide, but someone who could design, facilitate and on the best days even manifest transformational experiences"
Absolutely. Well Said
Karl
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Ola Girl,
Right on. Have a great time on the route!
Report back and let us know how it went.
Zander
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Lynne Wolfe
Trad climber
Driggs, ID
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Well after working in the Tetons for almost 20 years I generally suggest that clients start off with the same percentages as for restaurant tipping (15-20%). I have had remarkable tips from clients that I thought were dirt bags, and been stiffed by millionaires. our guide service has a sign posted in the office saying that " We regret we can no longer use your credit card to provide gratuity to the guides." or some such. i think it is a nice way to remind clients that gratuities are accepted and welcomed.
Folks that are used to being clients appreciate it when you make it a part of the goodbye and thank you ritual to offer your card to them and a few succinct words- but you guys all know that part, right up there with the client saying "let me take you to dinner or the bar" And I am married these days- sex as a tip, icky.
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10b4me
climber
Site C4 in TMCG
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Michelle,
good luck, be safe, and have fun.
are you going with Jeff?
maybe I will see you at Xroads so you can tell me how it went.
10b4me
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Ola Girl
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2007 - 10:02am PT
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Hey Steve,
No, I don't think Jeff guides big walls, but I'm certainly going to send him an e-mail and get the scoop on the guides who do. I'll be doing some training with guides down here first before I go to YMS so I haven't contacted them yet other than to find out it's $3,200 for The Nose. I'm not one of those millionaire clients so I have to save up for this - I've got to factor the tip into my budget so that's why the forum post. I think I've got a pretty good idea of my expenses now thanks to the folks with the informative posts! You've been most helpful!
Michelle
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Michele:
With all that you'll be learning before you go, and from the guide on the Nose, you might consider planning to climb another wall right in the Valley after the Nose. Chances are, you'll be more than ready by then. This would save you airfare (avoiding a second trip), and give you a chance to climb one on your own, too.
You're probably going to learn more and ask more of the "right" questions when you're on the Nose if you know you're learning with another climb coming up.
Anyway, have a great time on the Nose. I just saw two YMS guides heading up the nose the other day with two dudes that just got back from Iraq. I bet they're up there now. Both of the guides were incredibly experienced climbers with great reputations and really amazing people. What an awesome learning opportunity.
Enjoy your climb!
-Kate.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Ola Girl,
Only a few of the YMS guides will guide big walls and it is not surprising why this is so. It is hard work and a serious responsibility. I believe it currently costs $3,300 and the guide gets $1,800. I used to make about three hundred a day but after factoring in food, training, wear and tear on my gear, prep time, and dropped gear, it usually worked out to about $200 a day. That is not much for a 24 hour a day job. Teaching a full class, I could make more in a 6-7 hour day and be home for dinner in the evenings. I did enjoy being up there and helping people make their dreams come true. It is a rewarding job.
If you can, request Scott and have fun.
Ken
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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I second that ken.
Request Scott.
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oldcragger
Trad climber
Truckee,CA
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As another season winds down, I'm in the same situation as Michelle.
Short of paying a commercial guide $3200+ to haul you up the Captain, is it possible to "contract" a partner/guide with previous ascents to share leads and be a ropegun if necessary??
I've been "planning" to climb The Nose for 22 years. Learned to aid on S. Face of the Column and Half Dome in the 80's. Had a few weather aborted attempts but only as far as top of Sickle Ledge. For a variety of reasons (family, job, relocations, injuries, partner issues...) I haven't been back on it but it's still a goal. The problem is that it's hard enough to find partners willing to climb multi-pitch "trad" rather than boulder, let alone learn aid techniques and commit to a Wall (even if it is a trade route). So another year passes, the skills diminish and the goal fades a little more...
Michael
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Zetedog
Trad climber
PGH, PA
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I think I have used about 10 different guides now. I traveled 100% for my first job out of undergrad, and would often not know where and when I would be with enough time to round up partners, route guides, scope areas, etc. Using guide services was great as I only had to pack my shoes and harness, and they almost always had people available mid-week with little to no notice.
As the consumer, my perspective is this:
1) I had a job that paid real money
2) The guide had a job that didn't pay real money
3) Paying for a guide is expensive, and often a lot of that money doesn't end up in the guide's pocket.
4) The guide chose a job knowing the money sucked.
5) Just like any profession, not everyone is good at their job.
That said, I chipped in at least 50-150 bucks a day + a dinner and beer to the guide, regardless of the cost of the check I wrote to the company, with two notable exceptions.
I had one guide so bad that I walked away at the end of the day. Most guides are good at understanding your ability and designing/changing the day based upon that. This dude couldn't get it through his head that I was experienced and didn't want to spend the day top-roping 5.6's. He was also rude, dismissive, and started the trying to climb without his harness doubled back.
I had another guide that was terrific, and upon learning that I was free the next day, offered to take me climbing again even though it was his day off. We went, and I paid him the same amount that I would have paid the company.
Most experiences I had were great. The guide needs to earn the tip, and don't hesitate to pay more if they earn it.
ToddE.
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Dr.Kodos
Trad climber
Tennessee
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I recommend a solid push instead of just tipping them.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 11, 2007 - 12:15pm PT
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Mighty Hiker:
Plus Lofoten, which I hope to visit next year.
One of the planet's finer places, and somewhere I've thought that for an outlander a guide might make real sense ... it's complicated enough to arrive there by yourself, much less with all your gear and a partner ready to flash Presten.
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Ola Girl
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2008 - 01:53pm PT
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As a follow-up to this post...I did the Nose with Scott (he's AWESOME!!!) 9/10 - 9/13. Here's some pics, (sorry if they are so big, I'm too lazy to figure out how to make them smaller). No TR because there's not a whole lot to say other than it was absolutely AMAZING!!
I kind of feel like I took a tour of El Cap rather than climbed it because Scott did all the work. This gives me great incentive to practice my leading so the next time I go up there I can REALLY climb it!
And yes...Scott got a great tip! He deserved every dollar - that's a lot of work!! Scott - YOU ARE THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!
Here's the pics:
I love the Boot Flake (it's so cute) - here I am trying to hug it: (Yah, I'm a dork. Whatever...)
Top of the Boot Flake:
Making it out from under the Great Roof (cleaning that pitch was annoying):
Sleepy head Scott at Camp 5:
Me at Camp 5:
Yah, this place stinks:
Woo hoo - getting ready to top out!
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Nunya, America
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Sep 21, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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Silverback sighting!!
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Sep 21, 2008 - 02:43pm PT
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Ah, I see why you want a guide.
Someone who won't "try" for you while on the ledge.
Very smart.
As I see it, a guide, either fishing, rafting, or climbing, becomes your friend after a while.
So it's not like paying 3 grand to have a new transmission put in your car, that sucks.
But three grand to a fellow climber, for time well spent, I don't even think about the money, because the memories will last forever.
Be it advised, for three grand and a tip, you and a friend can spend 11 days in the Grand Canyon, nice and cool on the river, or else do the Shake and Bake on the wall.
I make about a hunskie a day doing indoor no STRESS, NO HEAVY LIFTING, SO 100 A DAY FOR eL cAP IS A TOTAL RIP FOR THE GUIDE, SO i HOPE THEY ENJOY IT JUST A little.
caps off.
So, do you guides ever enjoy yourselves while your up there, or is it "I can't wait to get back to camp and Beer!"
I guess that depends on the clients.
Does anyone know if locker gives discounts if you keep him baked all day on hash oil and ganja?
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Sep 21, 2008 - 03:01pm PT
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pretty cool Ola Girl...
thanks for posting.
Beware though, there are many who feel compelled
to be critical of the way others recreate.
Looks like you had a blast, you'll be leading up
there sooner than you think.
have fun!
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Sep 21, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
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Hey you guides, no breathing on the customers, alright?
(guide breath, yuk!)
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
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Sep 21, 2008 - 03:04pm PT
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Congrats on the Nose. Now take what you've learned and do one without the guide.
"So it's not like paying 3 grand to have a new transmission put in your car...
...discounts if you keep him baked all day on hash oil and ganja?"
I had a new clutch put in my old VW van a while back. Woulda cost me $320, 'cause I helped with the labor, but the mechanic kicked me down $50 after I got him baked like a lab rat.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Sep 21, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
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locker does volkswagons?
hey, which guides snore the loudest, cause that could be a bummer, i don't want to pay three grand to have some window rattler with a trombone for a nose keeping me up all night, cause i gots to climb tomorrow.
No wait, he has to climb tomorrow, never mind.
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Ola Girl
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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"Congrats on the Nose. Now take what you've learned and do one without the guide."
That's the plan...I've got my eye on Washington Column and Zion. I was just impatient to do a wall and I got a big bonus from my employer...so what the heck. I can't think of anything else I'd rather spend it on!!
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Sep 21, 2008 - 07:07pm PT
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Ola,
way to go.
glad you had a good time.
zip
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Nunya, America
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Sep 21, 2008 - 09:22pm PT
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Just hope that you learned some good stuff, anywho. You picked a Damn good one to go with, that's for sure. Scott has a bit o' skill on the Tall Stones, Huh?
I'm thinking so. So now you're set. Have fun!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
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Sep 21, 2008 - 11:15pm PT
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Hey,
I'm a guide.
I kinda keep it on the down-low and don't talk about this much, but I work for whatever people can afford - beer, groceries, but of course my favourite are frequent flyer points. If you wanna buy me an airplane ticket from Toronto to wherever, I'll take you up a big wall. You'll learn stuff, have fun, and you'll live to tell the tale.
I can supply any number of references.
Am I legit? Do I have my AMGA? Hell, no. Do I know what I'm doing? Hell, yeah.
You've got my email, drop me a line.
Cheers,
Pete
P.S. I don't "do" mornings, OK? Sheesh. However, I'll make you the best Big Wall Coffee you've ever tasted. This is not Big Wall Theory, this is Big Wall Fact.
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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Sep 21, 2008 - 11:37pm PT
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Awe man, I thought it said "tripping guides".
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Nunya, America
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Sep 21, 2008 - 11:39pm PT
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Well, Pete's a guide that is 'tripping'.........ain't he?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
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Sep 21, 2008 - 11:48pm PT
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Awwww, Kirk! I can't even smoke a doob, dude. My vices are limited to beer, and cabs or shirazes under eight bucks.
Cabs, not crabs, although there is nothing wrong with big wall crabs.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Sep 21, 2008 - 11:56pm PT
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I got 20% on a pretty pricey trip once and that was my best tip all summer. 10% is minimal I'd say, depending on the price of your trip with 20% being very generous. If you're tipping 25% you are a saint and you can bet you'll be getting a x-mas card from your guide.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 22, 2008 - 12:20am PT
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I thought "cabs not crabs" was the mantra of a service industry other than (but not unrelated to) guiding,..
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Sep 22, 2008 - 12:56am PT
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If you want big wall crabs climb with Locker.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Sep 22, 2008 - 01:00am PT
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because he has crabs.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Sep 22, 2008 - 01:02am PT
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This is in lockers underwear.
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reddirt
climber
subarwu
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Sep 22, 2008 - 09:15am PT
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given the state of the economy, I'm gonna make an extra effort to do ALL my tipping in cash... it's up to the recipient if they want to report it all or just in part to the feds... & contribute to the crazy wall street corporate bail-out.
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Ola Girl
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2008 - 11:44pm PT
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"I'll make you the best Big Wall Coffee you've ever tasted."
I dunno, man...Scott's coffee is damn good!
See, I have a smile on my face. Mmmm...tasty!
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Sep 23, 2008 - 12:29am PT
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You folks drink coffee up there?
I would think you would want something a little easier on the lower GI?
Hey, those Special Forces have a pill that makes em hold it for a week.
Possible uses on the wall?
Or just use the Locker thing?
Not the crab, that would probably hurt.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 23, 2008 - 12:33am PT
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"given the state of the economy, I'm gonna make an extra effort to do ALL my tipping in cash... it's up to the recipient if they want to report it all or just in part to the feds... & contribute to the crazy wall street corporate bail-out."
I wouldn't stress too much about that, most guides don't make enough for Uncle Sam to get a full pound of flesh from them anyway, and any money is better than no money.
As for coffee. personally it always seems like a lot of time and trouble. I have one word for folks with a coffee-caffeine addiction.
Dark Chocolate covered Expresso Beans.
Ok, that was a lot of words
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 23, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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Did your socks stick to that ledge like a fruit roll up?
You look pretty happy to me. :-)
Congratulations on having an experience that surpassed your desires and expectations!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 23, 2008 - 12:42am PT
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Thanks for the follow up Ola G!
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Ola Girl
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2008 - 09:10am PT
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We brought a Jet Boil - very lightweight, doesn't take up much space, boils water in a snap - super simple! Also useful for Mountain House meals - Meat with Potatoes and Onions is my favorite!
And yes, my socks stuck to that ledge - EW! I'm sure there were yellow crystals all over the bottom of them, but I didn't look to confirm. Ignorance is bliss...
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Mtnfreak
Mountain climber
Epicenter of North California
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Sep 24, 2008 - 12:05pm PT
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I heard an older guide say it best once...
"They trust us as much as their doctor.
They pay us less than their plumber.
At least they could tip us like their waiter."
I think a 20-10% of the rate is reasonable - which is how I tip my waiters. I'm paid a bit better than American guides in the past, but its still a struggle. I am slowly making it an affordable career, but I'm not going to get rich off of it.
Chris
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Sep 24, 2008 - 01:02pm PT
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LEB,
Some guide services make it clear that tips are dandy, and that it is your choice.
"Guides are compensated for their time but happily accept gratuities for exceptional service." --Estes Park Mtn. Shop
Now, if the guide is working independently and names their own price I think a tip is not necessary.
That is, I expect them to name the price they want to work for.
 Bill
Nefarius edit
Hmmmm... didn't think of it THAT way. If I ever hire a guide
who is working independently I will not stiff'em on the tip
like that. Even tho they name their price it's still good
form to express appreciation for excellent service in $$$.
My bad, but not again. Thanks!
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Sep 24, 2008 - 01:04pm PT
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Ever see what a guide makes, Lois?
Tipping IS built into the system.
like being a waiter, with less money on the table.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Sep 24, 2008 - 01:22pm PT
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I've never had the need for a guide. I've guided and been tipped, guided and not been tipped. My view of tipping is the same across the board; the idea of tips being obligatory is total BS. Tips are given to show appreciation for outstanding, or above-and-beyond service. I don't feel the need to add 15% to everything, just because someone did their job. If the service was exceptional, sure. I'll probably give you more than 15%. If the service was bad, I'll surely give you nothing or something very small so that you know I noticed and didn't simply forget to tip. If you need to make more money, you should probably find a job that pays more.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Kidland, 24x7, but sometimes Pasadena, CA
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I'm way late to the party, Ola Girl, but congrats.... I can tell you had a great time just from the photos. Good on ya!
Fletch
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"What I am wondering is why we even tip in the first place - aside from restaurants wherein it is built into the system. If I hire you to do something and you quote me a price to do it, why am I tipping on top of that. "
Think about it as "performance based incentives" Too bad wall streets execs aren't as dependent on good service.
Still, I never give it a second thought (although it's been a blessing at times)
Tipping can be a hassle, cause you never know what's expected of you and what the motives behind your good service is (kinda like being a hot woman, when will the ulterior motive show itself?)
Both in restaurants and guide services, the owners are counting on you to make up for them wishing to pay less in labor. In europe, it's figured into the bill for restaurants but you still pay for it.
Peace
karl
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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Karl is right.
The problem with tipping as I see it is that too many times it becomes an excuss for crappy pay. In a perfect world a guide (waiter, etc) would be compensated fairly for their service and the customer should be left free to not tip for crappy service or give a grand tip for extraordinary treatment. I don't like leaving a bad tip in a resturant because I know much of my server's income is based on it but what do you do when you get really lousy service?
The catch 22 about the European tipping system is that many times you're not given any service at all. The wait staff know the tip is compulsory they don't have to work for it. In those situations a good wait staff can really make or break a restaurants reputation. Think of it. People doing a good job because of integrity and not because of greed.
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Ouch!
climber
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Say, you might hire Locker to guide you. He should be free for a bit. His two regular customers are all stove up. He broke one's leg and the other one is wearing braces on his braces.
LOL!
Sorry Lock. Couldn't resist the temptation.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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One thing, Guides get a better daily rate than waiters, who are actually assessed taxes based on the assumption that they get about 8% of their food sales in tips (after they tip out buspersons and bartenders and such)
So, if you only tip a waiter 10%, it's already pretty minimal and if you stiff them, it actually costs them money. That's something to keep in mind.
Tipping guides can be considered optional but tipping waiters in the United States is part of the deal. Don't stiff a waiter that you wouldn't be happy taking money right out of their pocket against their will.
peace
Karl
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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Unfortunately I've had those waiters. Yeah, the ones I felt like should be paying me. And whats with a waiter taking your order and someone else brining it out. Places like Outback do that. I feel really put out when that happens. The waiter/tress takes your order then some guy, who's name you don't even know, comes out and wants to know who ordered what.
Back to climbing - I did a climb where I was required by law to hire porters. I went into town and found a guy who's name I was given and he picked out 3 other guys. They had a great time. I carried all my own stuff so they didn't work to hard. I shared the extra food I brought with them and in the end I gave them a good deal of my gear. I hated the thought of hiring porters and didn't have any extra money for tipping but after I saw what they have to put up with and how little they got paid I gave them 50 bucks each. They thought I was rich because I owned two used cars and made 35K a year.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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Hank,
I am NOT guiding you up any more ice routes .......
LOL
Jack
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"And whats with a waiter taking your order and someone else brining it out. Places like Outback do that. I feel really put out when that happens. "
I think it's a system designed to keep your waiter out on the floor taking care of things and not waiting in the back to grab your food (or not doing that and it gets cold)
but heh, we shouldn't turn this into a restaurant thread. Other guides might not like it to become so associated.
Already seems like that a bit to me, "Hello, I'll be your guide, would you like some struggle and pain with your fun in the sun. We have a special here on crack!"
Peace
Karl
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Witch Hunter
Social climber
Templeton, CA
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I worked as a river guide for many years and tipping was always an issue. It would kill me when you take a group of people on a hair raising class V run and all you would get was a hand shake at the end, yet you take a couple of moose hunters out for a few days on a flat water float, you average about $200 a day, more if they bag a good one. When it came down to it, guys that buy their gear from Cabela's always tip better than anyone that buys their gear from Patagonia, plus they always have booze and never bitch about boating while under the influence.
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