Double portaledge- which one is best ???

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p

Mountain climber
ny
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 17, 2007 - 11:32pm PT
I'd really appreciate your opinion. I am asking about the functionality/quality.( Supposedly money doesn't matter)
As far as i know the options are:

Metolius Bomb shelter

Fish Double Whammy

BD Cliff Cabana

and older
Double north face
and even older double A5.

Which one has the least kinks?
Thanks a lot.
Paul
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Aug 18, 2007 - 12:19am PT
Nothing flops like a FISH !
feelio Babar

Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
Aug 18, 2007 - 12:37am PT
fish.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 18, 2007 - 12:54am PT
Oh, I dunno.

Does 325 nights [and counting] on the side of El Cap in a Fish double mean anything?

{shrug}
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Aug 18, 2007 - 01:28am PT
hahahha!!!

Nice, AC.

Sorry for laughing, Pete!
WBraun

climber
Aug 18, 2007 - 01:52am PT
I think the best ledge is the one you sleep nicely on.

As usual my post is totally worthless.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 18, 2007 - 04:31am PT
Oh, shut up.

Christian's gag was still the best one, thought - that ivy climbs faster than me.

I climb slowly because I CHOOSE to. So there. A preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with.
Ain't no flatlander

climber
Aug 18, 2007 - 10:42am PT
fish = best value
metolius = best comfort
bd = worst value
pika = worst enenmy
Aaron Johnson

climber
Bear Valley, CA
Aug 18, 2007 - 10:55am PT
I have a Pika double and it sucks!
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Aug 18, 2007 - 12:00pm PT
Hello P:

Here it goes. In order of what matters to me, anyway, and who wins IMO -

SIZE: METOLIUS WINS
This is like Goldilocks and the three bears...I find the FISH to be too small (shorter and more narrow) the BD to be a huge monster and the Metolius to be just right...

* Length - On the double ledges, the FISH ledge is 6 inches shorter, at 6.5 feet long, while Metolius and BD are 7 feet long.
* Width - Width is where these ledges vary dramatically. The fish is 3'6" wide, the Metolius Double Bombshelter is 5'9" wide, whopping *5'3"** wide. This width makes the BD VERY difficult to assemble alone.

WEIGHT: FISH WINS
Weight varies dramatically and FISH wins by a long shot for a double ledge...partly due to size, and partly due to using cromolly tubing which is smaller but just as sturdy.

* MEDIUM Metolius double with bag: 14lbs and 1oz, fly is 7lbs 5 oz (FLY IS BOMBER.)
* HEAVY BD double with bag: 19lbs and 13 OZ. But hey, it has cup holders. Simple fly weighs 5lbs, lighter material than Metolius but still good.
* SUPERLIGHT: FISH - 10lbs, fly 6lbs. Nice.

FEATURES: FISH WINS
The key features on a ledge tells you what they cater to.


* FISH - Caters to function!!! With daisy chains on the straps and sides of higher end models, dual adjustment straps, ventallation ports on the fly, more fly floor coverage than other ledges, lock down straps for the fly, and bombproof materials, this ledge eliminates the fru-fru and simply functions well.
* METOLIUS - Caters to comfort!!! For the bigger (wider, longer) ledges, a spreader bar is nice. This key comfort feature has now been replicated by BD, though.
* BLACK DIAMOND - Caters to people who, perhaps, should be at home with servents serviing them breakfast in bed. It includes cup holders, a spreader bar, three separation fins, for a total of 9 straps to this portaledge!!! Wee Hoo! You could sleep seven comfortably. I have seen these things set up from a distance and they are massive luxury ships, to be sure. The true party ledge.

EASE OF SETUP: FISH WINS
FISH is the only double ledge that doesn't require a spreader bar for stability. This is huge. Simply huge, in my opinion. Spreader bars are a PITA, but also a liekly necissity as the size of ledges has balooned over time. Metolius and BD are the same, but the BD is tougher if you are alone simply due to size. Both require insertion of a spreader bar which can be a bitch.


COST: For Ledge and Fly - FISH WINS

* BD - $950 new not many on ebay, as just came out this ear
* Metolius - $950, with many used available as they've been out for awhile
* FISH - UM, FOR THE DELUX MODEL - $655


Of all the models, the FISH has seen the fewest changes overall, is nearly 10 pounds lighter than other models, and is perfect as a simple, single ledge. Additionally, you can lose the bells and whistles and get it EVEN CHEAPER! The design is tried and true. If I had to buy a ledge for me, for all purpose climbing, I'd chose the FISH double whammy for all my climbing.

But what do I own? Older style A5 single, Older style BD single, Newer BD single, Metolius Double Bombshelter, and a new BD single. (Don't ask how or why...)

So yes, I know my ledges, and have spenttime on all except for the A5 models from 8-10 years ago, and NO, I am not going to buy a fish...Well, maybe I'm not, not yet, anyway...)

Gearwhore, reporting. :)

-Kate.
paganmonkeyboy

Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
Aug 18, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
^^ you gotta respect a woman that owns more than two portaledges i tell ya...
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Aug 18, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
Well, at least I loan them out a lot, so I don't feel too bad. I love portaledges...

On the day I bought my first few cams and nuts, I stuck around in the shop for a slide show on Nameless Tower. Its the first time I ever saw a portledge and I thought it was the coolest thing EVER. Decided that someday I was going to learn how to climb stuff that needed a portledge. Or climb slowly enough that I'd need a ledge for everything I climbed, either way. ;)

-Kate.
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Aug 18, 2007 - 12:27pm PT
Kate-

Yes, I was stunned and amazed when BD chose to manufacture only the heavy Cliff Cabana (really designed as part of a three-person system when used in conjunction with the Diamond Fly), and the relatively useless single ledge, and discontinued the A5 best-seller Double Ledge, which in my opinion was the best combination of weight and size (it was inbetween the Fish and the Metolius in size, weighed about 11.5 pounds, making it suitable as a single or a double)
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Aug 18, 2007 - 12:34pm PT
Yes, agreed. If anyone can get their hands on the ACE/A5 double, the kind that was made right before BD bought it out, that would be a veeery nice ledge to have.

It has some of the newer bells and whistles (materials, corner design, size, and suspension) that make it a bit of an improvement over the earlier A5s, but doesn't go totally over the top the way the new BD double does...

-Kate.
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Aug 18, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
Fish ledges are the best;...duh.......but don't take MY word for it....just ask Russ.




kimgraves

Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
Aug 18, 2007 - 06:19pm PT
Kate,

With all those ledges, you could give up your day job and open a bed and breakfast. ;-)

Best, Kim
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 18, 2007 - 06:26pm PT
With respect to the Metolius, I believe [but am not certain] that some have complained about being uncomfortable not in spite of, but because of, the spreader bar. Unless you happen to be a slim, svelte, lightweight hottie like Kate, I have heard guys speak about the discomfort of the spreader bar when their weight presses against it.

Tom used a single Metolius up Tribal Rite, maybe he can comment?

If you value your comfort, and like to belay from a ledge rather than a bosun's chair or [horrors!] standing in your aiders, you can't flag a Metolius ledge because of the spreader bar. [but you can try, heh heh...] Kate has lovely gear to fondle. I especially love her big Pecker.
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
pitch above you
Aug 18, 2007 - 10:10pm PT
Kate -

All those ledges and just the one good (and missing) pulley, huh?


T Moses

Trad climber
Paso Robles
Aug 19, 2007 - 01:44am PT
Mine.

Mix of A5 (old) and some new ideas.





Built it all except the bartacking in the webbing.
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Aug 19, 2007 - 10:02am PT
Hey Oopsie - I have several pullys, but only one four-inch one with bearings, that I use for special stuff (a LOT of special stuff ;) ). Had to buy a new one but eventually got the other one (and my friend, Gene) back.

Thankfully, after loaning out ledges for at least 10 walls, I've always had them returned in good shape and good time, even from my bro, Gene. (Who is doing great, BTW). :)

-Kate.
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
pitch above you
Aug 19, 2007 - 10:17am PT
I think the return of the pulley deserves a thread of it's own, or did I miss it?
Thom

Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
Aug 19, 2007 - 04:24pm PT
You are correct Pete, about the Metolius spreader bar. I have a double and have slept single on it a few times; it absolutely required cinching the center divider up to keep the bed off the bar. I'm 5'9" and 160 lb and that bar lands right in the small of my back and can be felt even through my comfy Thermarest.

Being forced to sleep to one side or the other of the ledge is a balancing act at times. So far, no problems but I'm constantly paranoid of flipping the thing in the middle of the night.

Cheers
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 19, 2007 - 07:53pm PT
FISH of course....DUH!

Do you guys take sleeping pads/thermarests even in warm conditions?

My FISH ledges are way comfy even without any pads.
I sleep like a drunk baby.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Aug 20, 2007 - 01:29am PT
as to pads on hot days, I don't think i would normally but attempting Freak Show last year I ended up getting chilly and the padded section, when I was on it, was when I was sleeping good. fwiw...
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Aug 20, 2007 - 04:05am PT
Aluminum is such a hideous material for portaledge tubing, I can't believe some companies still use it. A big reason the FISH ledge weighs less is because the tubing weighs less; and yet, like magic, it's stronger and more resilient than aluminum.

On TR two years ago, a teeny bit of snow-and-wind action (mid JUNE) batted a Metolious ledge around enough to put a ding near the middle of the side tube where it hit the rock. Subsequent extreme loading (i.e., getting in and out of the ledge) caused the tube to bend, threatening to kink completely. The only thing that saved me was wrapping empty beer cans and duct-tape around the tube to splint it.

And the spreader bar? The Metolious ledge I used was only a single, but the spreader bar could still be felt, at times. If I laid perfectly flat on my back, splayed out like a man in a quicksand pit, the bed fabric stayed off the bar. Otherwise, I'd feel it. If I rolled onto my side, it'd hit me. If I sat up, I'd have to move to avoid it.

The fish double can take two people standing on it, digging into a piglet full of pins and huge cams, and not require a spreader bar. The shark-fin straps can be used if the climbers are particularly heavy.


And don't even think of flagging a ledge with aluminum tubes, unless the route is overhanging. The upper corner of the ledge (the one not clipped to the rope) will catch on all manner of TINY roofs, and the ledge will deform into a twisted parallelogram, putting enormous stress at the corners. I can only imagine what sort of other rock features a spreader bar would like to grab.

The FISH ledge can deform and twist into a pretzel, and then spring back, undamaged.

If you intend to belay from your ledge, hauling it flagged above the haul bag is very convenient.


The FISH fly comes with a long tent pole, that increases the interior volume tremendously. Even better, you can run a strap of webbing down the pole, tape a hook to the top, and create a Lovetron/Tequila Straw cheater stick.


All of which means: buy the FISH ledge.
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Aug 20, 2007 - 09:35am PT
You can't really flag a Metolius ledge, or one that relies on a spreader bar. As the ledge torques a bit, or as the spreader bar even "brushes" against the rock, it will fall out of the ledge.

This then allows it to hang down and its tether will wrap around the pigs, eventually causing the pigs to spin.

This is only your biggest problem until the whole ledge falls apart because the poles of the ledge fall out of the "cupped" corner joints without the spreader bar in place.

NOT that I'd know, or anything...

I have never felt the spreader bar on the Metolius ledge, but that's probably because I only weigh 115...OK 120...nevermind. 130, but it still counts. ;)

-Kate.
Ain't no flatlander

climber
Aug 20, 2007 - 10:29am PT
Fish is okay...for short people. Anyone over 5'9" or so will be happier in a manly-sized ledge. If you tension the Metolius well, it's still the best choice.
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Aug 20, 2007 - 10:48am PT
Ah, the battle of Aluminum over Steel, always an interesting one from the engineering perspective.

Both steel and aluminum have advantages and disandvantages. The factors to look at:

--Strength: 6061-T6 aluminum has a slightly better strength to weight ratio than CroMo steel, so a given ledge design based on bending strength will be slightly lighter with aluminum over steel (but only about 5%, not really significant in terms of overall portaledge weight).

--Crack propagation: Aluminum is better; over time, as a ledge gets bashed around, steel will be more vulnerable to micro fractures that could ultimately cause a weak spot and ultimate failure.

--Stiffness: Perhaps the main factor in designing a frame for a portaledge. Based on engineering studies, I found that 6061-T6 aluminum is stiffer than Cro-Mo steel based on real-world tubing diameter and wall thickness designs. (I would suggest that one reason why Fish ledges appear to be stiffer than a Metolius is their relative sizes: The Fish model is compact, so it doesn't flex as much, but if it were as large as the Metolius, the steel frame would flex significantly more.)

--Buckling: A factor of tubing diameter and wall thickness. A 0.058" thick wall 6061-T6 tube has about the same buckling resistance as the Fish CroMo ledge tubing design. However, Tom may have a point in terms of what happens when a significant dent is created in the aluminum tube, as steel may have more resistance to getting dented in the first place due to its hardness.

--Size: Steel is far more compact for packing.

I suppose I had a preference for aluminum for the A5 ledges because I had been in a few lightning storms on walls, and aluminum alloy is not a good electrical conductor, but steel is. Though in reality, no one has ever been struck by lightning on a ledge, as far as I know, and besides, maybe the ledge would act as a Faraday cage.

I was also concerned about rust (in terms of the fitting of the joints), but this also doesn't seem to be a big problem with Fish ledges, by all accounts. For me as a designer, it really came down to the superior stiffness of aluminum (a factor of the larger diameter yet lighter tubing).

This battle has raged on in the bicycling world as well:
http://www.epinions.com/content_1285660804
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html
http://www.waltworks.com/dev/philosophy/steel.php
and many others you will find on google...
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Aug 20, 2007 - 12:24pm PT
I am a fan of the old Black Diamond Skyloung ledges.

hollyclimber is selling hers:
http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/712940/page/3#Post712940

It may not be the most bomber, but it sure is easy to set up and put away.

~bone
YetAnotherDave

Trad climber
Vancouver, BC
Aug 20, 2007 - 12:54pm PT
Has anyone else tested using a diagonal strap to keep a metolius ledge from sagging, to prevent the scenario Kate described? I've done a little testing in a fully free-hanging situation, and it seemed to prevent deformation that could let the spreader fall out, but I haven't hauled it anywhere that it could knock against the wall.

Test was with a double bombshelter, strap was an adjustable daisy between two other pieces of tied webbing. I'd also tensioned the bejeezus out of the ledge :)
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Aug 21, 2007 - 01:16am PT
Deuce4,

I have to take exception to your statement regarding this:

Steel conducts electricity better than aluminum? Then why is it, the PG&E-type power companies often use steel cable to support aluminum electrical cables between poles? I'm too lazy to look this one up, but, as NostraThomas, I predict that any handbook will show aluminum to be the better conductor.


The great tragedy/failure of aluminum is its low yield strength - lack of springiness - which rears its ugly head when an unanticipated load causes minor damage. Basically, aluminum is easy to dent, and it won't spring back. Minor damage like that, in a ledge tube, can, and will, become worse.

By contrast, the cro-moly is almost impossible to damage. It just springs back. The only thing more resilient would be titanium alloy, like they use for those eyeglass frames you can tie into knots. My ledge has carbon fiber tubes, which are incredibly strong (and light), but I would still bet that the FISH ledge would win in an Ultimate Flagging/Destroy the Ledge contest.


PTPP's FISH double ledge is the only test-case I know of, but he's been up, what, 50 El Cap walls with that thing? Russ sent him a replacement bed and new straps, but the frame is 100% original. And believe me, I've seen, and done, hardcore tweaking of that Crab-O-Ledge, pulling past roofs, where it almost twisted 180 degrees on itself, popped the roof, and sprang back, like magic, and ready for use. The only damage to PTPP's ledge frame is some slight flaring at the ends of the tubes, which actually makes the ledge easier to assemble. This is what the Experts call an evolving, adaptive system, or something like that.

The FISH ledge uses aluminum corners with lugs that fit into the tubes. As the tubing flares, and the lugs wear down, it becomes easier - not harder - to assemble the ledge. Is that true with the other designs?


Oh, and the cro-moly is very rust-resistant, in case someone wants to claim corrosion is an issue. The light surface rust on PTPP's ledge frame is nothing more than a decorative patina. My guess is he's had it for almost fifteen years, although that may be an understatement. Basically, corrosion of the FISH cro-moly frame is not an issue.


And for a point of comparison, when was the last time anyone saw an aluminum piton? I bootied a big, fixed, aluminum Chouinard bong last year (ahhh, patience) but that's not the point. The point is, Salathe's genius was to use good, hard, strong steel for pins that need to undergo repeated, high-stress loading, again and again and again.

Russ's genius was that he extrapolated from the Salathe/Chouindard piton to the portaledge tube, and you know what? It works. A big part of Russ's genius was in selecting thin-wall, light cro-moly tubing, but knowing it was strong enough for its purpose. His design is very close to perfect, in terms of strength-to-weight ratio.


My calculator shows that increasing the FISH ledge from 6.5 to 7.5 feet would only add 6 ounces of frame weight. Maybe it's time to petition Russ to increase the size of his ledge, because climbers are demanding a higher level of luxury, up there, on the Wall.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 21, 2007 - 02:56pm PT
Mr. Dusseldorf,

I am writing to ask you what you mix with your aluminium to render it non-conductive to electricity? My own experimentation with mixing rubber and aluminium has proved unsuccessful.

I would think the determining factor in ledge stiffness would be less about the material from which the tubes are made [steel vs. aluminum, both of which are pretty darn stiff] and more about the design of the corners. Thoughts?

If it were possible to destroy a FISH ledge, I would have done so long ago. The most I have done is very slightly bent one of the tubes, not enough to worry about trying to straighten. Tom's right about the ends of the tubes being slightly dinged, but this makes the ledge easier to assemble.

One of the reasons I flag the Crab-O-Ledge is because it is hard to set up and take down. This isn't because there is a problem with the FISH design, but rather because the shoe repairman sewed the Crab-O-Flag onto the bottom of the ledge bed too tightly.

I am 5'9" and find the FISH double plenty roomy. I don't know if Russ cuts his own tubes, but perhaps if you are tall he could make you a bigger model?
paganmonkeyboy

Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
Aug 21, 2007 - 04:13pm PT
shameless fish promo bump...brand new, present to myself after the new shoulder, can't wait to get it in the air...


Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Aug 21, 2007 - 04:32pm PT
everybody seems to be forgetting that it takes a min of 6 months to get a Fish ledge...

I used a buddies on the Shield and have to say that I liked it.
Moof

Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
Aug 21, 2007 - 04:45pm PT
6 months? Hell, I just bought Russ a beer with paypal, and voila, I had mine in a mere 180 days!
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Aug 21, 2007 - 05:39pm PT
The Metolius spreader bar sucks. You can feel it, right down the center of your back. I would assume the BD is the same.

Someone above mentioned flagging the ledge... Not going to happen with the Metolius (or BD now), as the spreader bars will pop out and get tangles in everything. Not to mention, your ledge will eventually fall apart without the spreader bar.

And speaking of that spreader bar... You better practice putting hte ledge together on the ground, as well as read the instructions on how to do it. It will save you TONS of pain on the wall when you are flailing, for about an hour, trying to put the thing together. Seriously. Read and practice before you take off. There's an easy way to do it and a painful way.
del cross

climber
Bay Area
Aug 21, 2007 - 05:47pm PT
BD spreader bar is above.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 21, 2007 - 05:50pm PT
What's the loop in the bottom of each strap, right above the ledge? Is that another place you can fine tune the adjustment?

See how each of the six suspension straps has a mini 3-point daisy chain clip point? Very handy - fundamental, really, for big wall camping. I have a whole system every night, what I clip to each place. I would be lost without the clip-in points on each strap. Not every ledge has those, you know. The Cliff Cabana I reviewed didn't have the feature. The other main daisy that FISH includes and what you see hanging down is somewhat handy.

One problem I noted with the Cliff Cabana is that the adjustment straps had only 22" adjustability, which is totally insufficient in all but the most perfect of hangs. Often you have your pig and ledge off the same power point, and you have to hang the ledge asymmetrically, with the straps close to the pig short, and the other end way long. Very handy with FISH, impossible with Cliff Cabana.

Cheers,
Dr. Piton
Big Wall Parvenu
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Aug 21, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
OH I SECOND HOW MUCH THE LIMITED ADJUSTABILITY OF THE BD SUCKS ASSSSSSSS!

I got stuck bivied in a corner on two occasions, and I couldn't get the straps adjusted enough to get the powerpoint close to the corner (even on a sling) and not have the ledge tilted at such an angle as to be nearly dumping me out.

Also, gone are the days of placing the short side of the ledge against the wall. Impossible with either of the new BD ledges. Quite possible with the FISH and Metolius.

-Kate.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 21, 2007 - 06:01pm PT
Ledges with insufficient adjustability in all six straps work fine in theory.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Aug 21, 2007 - 06:03pm PT
The pond is stocked, forget that other junk, go with the fish™.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Aug 21, 2007 - 06:04pm PT
"Also, gone are the days of placing the short side of the ledge against the wall. Impossible with either of the new BD ledges. Quite possible with the FISH and Metolius. "

Just *barely* possible with the Metolius single, Kate. Barely. Until you get on the thing and stretch them out a bit, your ledge won't sit anywhere near flat with the short side against the wall.
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Aug 21, 2007 - 06:12pm PT
Look, there's no doubt that Fish ledges are fine rigs, and that he has an endless number of devotees. I'm out of the portaledge business anyway, so there's no challenge there.

But I would argue that tube stiffness is a valid consideration, and in this respect, aluminum is superior.

Then again, if I were to make ledges again, perhaps I'd consider steel for their compact size. A bit cheaper, too.

Regarding the conductivity of 6061-T6, it is about a half as conductive as 4130 ChroMo steel. Look it up. Pure aluminum is a great conductor, but once you put some alloying in there, it becomes a very poor conductor (has something to do with the face centered cubic crystal structure of aluminum, I believe).

Regarding the flagging, I used to product test the hell out of my ledges, dragging them up low angle, over roofs, whatever damage I could inflict on them, and never had a problem. We could get the A5 ledges to bend when we put six guys on it and jumped like hell. That kind of product testing was always fun.

cheers
paganmonkeyboy

Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
Aug 21, 2007 - 06:12pm PT
big wall parvenu - i had to look that up Pete...
and yeah - there are fine tune adjustments on the bottom of all six straps on this baby...

where's the TR from you two ? some of us wounded gumbies have to live vicariously ya know...
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Aug 21, 2007 - 06:52pm PT
Hey Pete:

After belaying from your ledge (CroMoly) and mine (in the past, and aluminum), I can say that your ledge poles flexed quite a bit more.

*comment deleted about Pete's ledge being hard to put together/take apart...it was the shoe guy's fault. :)

Of course, this could be billed as a benefit, seeing as how I've had to re-put-together my metolius in the middle of the night when an irregularity on the rock caused my spreader bar to fall out, the ledge to hourglass, and an end tube slip out. Grrrr....

-Kate.
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Aug 21, 2007 - 07:39pm PT
I think the best double ledge or rather deluxe single ledge is Duece's design. I paid 300 for this one several years ago on Ebay. It had been up one wall in Zion and had a new unused seam seamed (taped) Fly. All in mint condition.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 21, 2007 - 08:10pm PT
Just to repeat [to Kate], the reason I need to bash my ledge together with a hammer is because the shoe repairman stitched the crab-O-flag too tightly to the nylon bed of the ledge, stretching the whole thing too tightly, and making it hard to assemble.
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Aug 21, 2007 - 08:13pm PT
Oh yeah oh yeah...I will go correct my post. Thx for the reminder, Pete!
hollyclimber

Big Wall climber
Yosemite, CA
Aug 22, 2007 - 12:40am PT
Ha ha ha...

Holly WAS selling her old BD, the BEST LEDGE EVER, but its sold... I only sold it because I scored a BRAND NEW ONE at Second Ascent in Seattle. So, sadly, I will no longer be a girl who owns three portaledges... But, I do have tons of rain flys, if that counts!

And, for what its worth, to whoever asked, I always take my pad on El Cap. You really never know when you are going to need it, and John Dill would be mad at me if something went wrong and I didn't have a pad.

See ya
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Aug 22, 2007 - 01:30am PT
Holly, I have a (almost) brand new Skylounge too...that I got for $300 w/fly. Used it on NA right before you guys.

Cheers

I have 2 A5 double rainflys for sale, brand new with tags. One is the expedition and one is the breathable fabric expedition. asking $150 each. I bought them for my BD but they didn't fit, way too small.
Moof

Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
Sep 10, 2007 - 07:49pm PT
Duece,

A while back you said:

"Regarding the conductivity of 6061-T6, it is about a half as conductive as 4130 ChroMo steel. Look it up. Pure aluminum is a great conductor, but once you put some alloying in there, it becomes a very poor conductor (has something to do with the face centered cubic crystal structure of aluminum, I believe). "

It was bugging the crap out of me, gnawing at the back of my brain like a bored rat.

So I looked it up.

4130 tempered steel: 22.3 micro Ohm-cm
6061-T6/T651 aluminum: 3.99 micro Ohm-cm

So per my numbers 6061-T6 is 5x better at conducting than 4130, not 0.5x. Maybe an ancient case of missing the exponent?

Further... By cross section the aluminum is more than 2x the area. 0.875" OD 4130 with a 35 mil wall has about 0.096 sq-in of cross section (Russ's tubes). 1.125" 6061 with a 0.058 mil wall has 0.205 sq-in of cross section (Duece's tubes). So, even with your 0.5x conductivity the resistance of a tube would have been equal, though in reality it works out to 10x in favor of using 4130 if lightning was your concern.

In reality just about the worst metal conducts better than even a sliver of air (even ionized air), so choosing a metal tube for lightning resistance is about akin to choosing paint color to make your trailer more tornado proof.

Sorry to rant so bad, but it was just bugging the crap out of me for weeks.
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Sep 10, 2007 - 09:17pm PT
Hi Moof-

I just looked at your figures, and you are entirely correct, and my previous statements about the relative conductivity (or resistance in this case) were exactly as you presumed, my figures were off by the value of the exponent.

Thank you for pointing out my error--and hefty apologies that it has been gnawing you!

I think my predesposition of steel as a better conductor (which blinded me to those pesky exponents all these years) must have been from the time we climbed the Mushroom in Sedona, when lightning was striking the top and the steel pitons seemed like they were sparking. Must have been my imagination.

I wonder what you think about what would happen if lightning travelling down a crack, as it sometimes does, and came across a metal ledge. Do you think the ledge would act as a Faraday cage and protect its inhabitants, or do you think they'd be fried?

Again, apologies for my error.

cheers
mdavid

Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
Sep 10, 2007 - 09:41pm PT
go with fish

sleeping with two works and putting it up and dealing with a cluster from taking it down too quickly is manageable by one person hanging in their harness, at the end of a long day, pissed off.
Take another ledge and pretend you hate yourself when putting it in the bag...then try and uncluster it while even standing on the ground.

If you aren't planning the wall trip 6 months or more out then you are probably going to find a grand adventure, hang on tightly.
Moof

Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
Sep 11, 2007 - 01:07am PT
Ledge as a Faraday cage, now that is a thought!

Lightning down a crack?! Holy Frick!!!! I'd pay money to NEVER see that!

I'd imagine that if you were lying flat surrounded by a hoop of metal, that in general it would make it much less likely for modest lightning (does that make ANY sense? Maybe like and tame A4++?) to get much current through you compared to lyin in a hammock or plastic ledge. Of course half a second later the now toasty tubes would melt the nylon bed and you'd go for a nice ride. In that case Aluminum would heat up less for the same current, so it would be less likely to send you for a ride afterward (by 1/10th as much, not account for their respective specific heats). But Holy Frick, you just got struck by lightning, so at that point a tether ride you live to suffer through is a joyous event!
deuce4

Big Wall climber
the Southwest
Sep 11, 2007 - 10:19am PT
Pretty funny stuff there.

Moof, are you an engineer?
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Sep 11, 2007 - 01:06pm PT
Use braided wire instead of nylon straps to suspend the ledge and form a very loose Faraday cage. For the cage to work though it needs to be able to handle the current. Your light weight cage may be fried in a microsecond and you along with it.

For lightning protection you may only need to provide a nice pathway for the strike to follow. Run a fine copper wire from your highest pro and down maybe 100' under your ledge. The lightning is seeking the low ground and will go for the easy route you provide, passing you by, hopefully. Copper wire comes in very fine gauges. You would need only an ounce. (By the time the lightning fries the copper wire it will have ionized the air making its own pathway.)

I found this article on how a light weight metal mesh is used to protect composite aircraft from lightning:

http://www.compositesworld.com/hpc/issues/2006/July/1366/1
clustiere

Trad climber
Durango, CO
Sep 11, 2007 - 01:15pm PT
I dig my BD ledge as it is fast and reliable. Still I don't use it that often anymore.
SteveM

Trad climber
UK
Sep 25, 2007 - 10:31am PT
I just got a second-hand BD double skylounge and after a weekend in the Welsh quarries I'm well confused on how to get it setup. The long side bars fold inwards at the hinges when the crossed bars at the end are squeezed flat.

Should there be a spreader bar on the BD skylounges? Or am I just doing it wrong?

Or has anybody got a scan of any destructions for these ledges? The BD website just has those for the new style single & cliff cabana ledges :-(
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Sep 25, 2007 - 05:23pm PT
Steve, I've spent many nights in the Skylounge Double, I've owned two. I'll try and help, keep playing with it, don't force it...

First make sure when you unfold it all the straps are totally loose. Flatten the long bars first, then pull down the end-cross bars, then spread it out. Just keep spreading it...once it's mostly out then put some tension on the straps and that should suck it flat. Sometimes with that thing you just need to jump on it and flatten it out with your own weight, then do the straps.

Packing it up is a little trickier. Reverse the set-up proces, but you need to make sure the end-cross bars fold up into the little gap in the fabric in the middle near the hinge before you fold the long bars at the hinge. If they don't lace through the gap they can rip the fabric, be carefull there.

Not sure how to better explain it, good luck!

I've recently converted to old school A5 because I came upon some cheap expedition rainfly's.
Moof

Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
Sep 25, 2007 - 06:02pm PT
"Moof, are you an engineer? "

Hi. My name is Moof, and I'm and engineer. It's been 2 days and 3 hours since my last integral.
Raafie

Trad climber
Portland, OR
Sep 27, 2007 - 12:26am PT
SteveM, I'm sending you an email with the directions.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Sep 27, 2007 - 02:56am PT
pimp set up johnmac...

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w227/littletonkiwi/CIMG1350.jpg

wall, ledge, gear neatly stored, gotta be a suburu rig (we have one too).

John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Sep 27, 2007 - 11:02am PT
Yeah, it's a subaru...
Anastasia

Trad climber
California
Sep 27, 2007 - 11:10am PT
Fish
SteveM

Trad climber
UK
Sep 27, 2007 - 12:10pm PT
Thanks for the helpful hints Lambone. I got it setup down in the local quarry last night for the first time. The key step I ws missing was rotating the end cross bars a full 270deg so that they are under the ledge - it just all fell into place after I got that sorted so I'll be trying it halfway up the wall the next time I'm down there. I know what you mean about packing it away, that turned into a full-on effort with two of us on the ground - thanks for the handy hint on making sure that end cross bars are in the right place to avoid ripping the fabric, I shall watch out for that.

After last night, I don't think I'll have any problems deploying the ledge solo, but in your opinion should it be possible to pack it away again on my own? It wasn't playing ball last night in a strong wind and I was stood on the ground!

Raafie, thanks for your efforts but I didn't get any scans. I'd appreciate it if you could try again. YHM.

Now I just have to convince the new girlfriend that Yosemite is the destination of choice for next years holiday ;-)
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Sep 27, 2007 - 12:48pm PT
heck yeah dude, with a little practice you can have that thing up and fully adjusted or down by yourself in a matter of 2-3 minutes.

one more thing, it often hangs better if you hang it off a doubled sling or quickdraw rather then straight off the bolt, if you have space.
SteveM

Trad climber
UK
Sep 28, 2007 - 04:19am PT
Raafie: Thanks for the scanned destructions, they're a great help.

Cheers everybody, see you in the valley next year...
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