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WBraun
climber
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Jul 24, 2007 - 08:19pm PT
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I never put my money in my mouth,
All those germs .....
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 24, 2007 - 08:22pm PT
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I think it is a matter of taste and durability. I would never advocate adding bolts to what I perceive to be "master piece" lines, such as "You Asked For It", Bachar Yerian, etc. Other lines, more generic like "the kid", with what I think could be called contrived danger, or preprotected with unsustainable pin placements like Cookie Monster, may call for a more nuanced approach. But then there is no accounting for taste, and who am I to say, when, though I have clipped, climbed and enjoyed the Cookie Monster numerous times, I have not yet ventured on these grand runout routes.
Peter
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 24, 2007 - 08:27pm PT
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"vrrooooooooom!!!!11"
AND THEY'RE OFF
and it's Jello by neck
no, it's Maysho by a nose
no, it's mungie in the lead
correction, mungie on the top rope
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 24, 2007 - 08:28pm PT
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My point, Joe, is that the motivation/committment of the first ascenders doesn't seem to matter to those who don't respect them. They'll retro-bolt in any case, thus changing the nature and character of the climb.
-Jello
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jul 24, 2007 - 11:22pm PT
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"For better or worse, in the past, all the following were condemned as unethical:
Chalk Topos rap-bolting
hang-dogging
bolting at all for pro
hanging on hooks to bolt"
I read that in Moravia if you fall once you have to quit climbing forever.
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john hansen
climber
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Jul 24, 2007 - 11:35pm PT
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Just out of curiosity,, what type of bolts were used on Bacher Yerian, and when will they need replacing?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Jul 25, 2007 - 12:09am PT
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"...What do I learn from this? If you are going to count on other people placing protection( of any kind) for you, take into consideration a few incomplete six paks are walking around out there. Other than that, when on a rope go up when you are comfortable. Down when you are not. Both directions allow you to learn. Both are cool...
Best post in this thread--although I doubt anyone noticed.
Curt
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Jul 25, 2007 - 03:11pm PT
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Curt,
I'm with you on that one.
Am I mistaken that some time around 89, Kirt and Mike Pont put up a route in Boulder Canyon where they either glued of bolted a hand hold on the route as there was no other way to finish it, for them.
Where does something like that fit in? At the time I sort of thought that is was no big deal, but now I tend to agree with Kirt's current stance. Actually more so with Jello's stance.
Prod.
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Jul 27, 2007 - 07:16pm PT
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In the past few weeks, I've spent more than a few days out at South Whizz Dome in Toulumne. The steep knob routes are on high quality rock and feature excelent pumpy face climbing. On the right side of the cliff there is a log, which has been propped up and supported by a pile of rocks. The face above the log features delicate low angle climbing to a ledge. The route continues up a black streak through a series of steepening and increasingly large knobs. Blackout is classic. It's 11b section is well protected- there are two bolts and a small alien or tricam placement. However, the first fifty feet of climbing have no protection whatsoever--you can't even duct tape a sling around a knob.
The route was first done as a top-rope by John Bachar and then it was led, ground-up by Kurt Smith. I know of only one other climber who led this route ground-up onsight- Drew "The Iceman" Rollins
This route, if it had an additional bolt or two at the bottom, would make an excellent lead. Those bolts don't exist though. one could argue that since aid, the log, is used to reach the face then aiding additional bolts isn't a big deal. You could also argue all about purity, and how a harder variation to the face exists.
Whatever, I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for bolts on Blackout to be drilled. I'll settle for a toprope and hope that one day I'll have the boldness to headpoint the route. It's okay that there are dangerous routes out there. Drew wouldn't be such a badass if Blackout was grid bolted. It's nice to have some hardmen around.
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Dickly
Trad climber
Utah
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Dec 31, 2008 - 12:17pm PT
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I f*#king love bolts. f*#king love them.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 01:22pm PT
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Dickly, weak dude. You obviously need to work on your thread revival skillz:-)
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Captain...or Skully
Trad climber
North of the Owyhees
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Dec 31, 2008 - 01:37pm PT
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We(Minerals & I) chopped some bolts at the Texas flake once....Does this mean they've returned??
WTF!!!??
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:15pm PT
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Bolting myths? Like the myth that older generations of climbers have any say over what younger generations of climbers are bolting or that their opinions matter?
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
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"Again the word COMMITMENT!"
Walking through the C4 lot a couple of decades ago I came upon 2 industrious guys trying to grind a drill bit with a hand crank grinder bolted to a piece of plywood. They were attempting to reconfigure the bit from cutting steel to granite per Tucker's sample. As a Journeyman Machinist I offered to help, as it's a part of our skill set. With one man cranking like mad we were able to duplicate Tucker's bit. We had a round of ice cold beers to celebrate. It turned out that this homemade bit and others like it ground in a VW van were used on the FA of Keeper Of The Flame.
Back on the project it was time for a bolt, Kurt found a stance, pulled up some pins trying for enough support to drill, no go. Rather then bail he continued to search for an answer with the pump meter running on this steep route. The ingenious solution spawned by desperation and the desire to succeed was to use a hook on a vertical edge and lay back off of it while drilling. Amazing and inspirational, regretfully I lost the video that I shot.
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ec
climber
ca
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
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atchaewhateva,
The truth of the matter is the first ascensionist will always own each particular experience regardless of what future gen's think. 'Second truth: those who choose to change the experience for their level of mental competence don't realize they are just short-changing themselves..."Stupid is as stupid does."
 ec
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OTCGENO
Trad climber
CALIFORNIA
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:38pm PT
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Hey Kurt.
I agree with you 100 percent. The bottom line is this: If you can't deal with the runout, don't climb it.
Every crag has it's classic test piece. The route that everybody wishes they had the cajones to climb. These are the routes that encourage us to train, to dream, to succeed (or crater). No one has the right to take these routes from us.
I'll never forget climbing Pressure Sensitive at Morro Rock, or The Wonder Wall at Whitney Portal, or Such A Savage at Josh.
I've put up a lot of routes, all of them were done from the ground up.
My first bolt was on Thin Ice at the Rincon (Hey Kris, Big E, Rob B. remember the Rincon?). I didn't know it when I left the deck, but the route was 5.11c. This was as hard as I could climb at the time. I used a hand drill. I't took me 45 minutes to get that hole drilled. The last bolt was far enough away that I probably would have decked if I came off.
I wouldn't trade that experience for anything.
Be bold. You'll remember it longer and it makes for a better campfire story.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:39pm PT
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Not that I really disagree with the thrust of the original post Kurt,
But darnit' sometimes we take ourselves a little too seriously here.
And not to get into a pissing match Kurt ('cause you know I love you), nor to deconstruct your esteemed career or otherwise cause a dustup, but jeepers, throughout your climbing experience at one time or another you've engaged nearly every dirty trick in the book. So a little perspective is sometimes warranted. Run outs and boldness are terrific gestures, but the pious grandstanding sometimes gets out of hand.
Looking forward to seeing more of your slides scanned and posted up from the old days!
Your Buddy,
Roy
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
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I'm with you kid 100%, Maysho, I think you bring up a good point. People should reaaly check out the routes and their skill levels BEFORE they becide to jump on them. I think adding bolts so the average wanker( like me) can do the route "safely" is lame, it totally compromises the soul of the climb. Each climb has it's own flavor some spicey some not so. Let the FA party decide the flavor then decide if you want to taste it.There are alot of climbs I'd love to do (Bachar-Yerian) but propably never will unless someday (doubt it!)I pull out enough sack to do it and thats ok.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 31, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
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Holy sh*t Geno - is that you??
I still go up to the Rincon seveeral times every winter. Such a place. Of course by now we have picked most of the cherries. All ground up, every one a great memory...
I'll send you a proper email after New Years...
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