Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 61 of total 61 in this topic |
the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 24, 2007 - 10:10am PT
|
in the last few weeks i see a few posts regarding adding bolts to run out routes. I have also seen arguments made for the retro bolting of not so classic 5.8-5.10 routes, based on the f*#ked up logic that the current classics are now too crowded so we need more, so let's bring those run out routes DOWN to our level. Then we don't have to wait in line on the trade routes!
Since i lived in Yosemite all through the 80's and have a few of these run out routes you talk about i would like to clear up some myths.
myth #1- those run out 5.10 routes are out up by 5.13 climbers. therefore it is unfair that they bolt these routes so run out. Plus it is Nat. Park property, therefore any climber has the right to add these bolts.
Ok- if you really believe this then i have a RANCHO IN MEXICO I WOULD LIKE TO SELL YOU. CASH ONLY!
This is an absurd argument. Let me clue you in on these routes.
Before the days of RAP bolting and sport climbing there was a thing called commitment and every new route you did was ground up, un-rehearsed. You started at the bottom and put in gear if you could find it and bolts when you got a stance and if your calves held out for the hand drilling. If you could not get gear you either down climbed or went for it hoping for another stance higher up. Many a times i choose the later and ended up way out from the last bolt, wishing i was at Tenaya lake drinking a beer. But you COMMIT and if all went well you made it.
Second myth- it took a long time for me (and many others) to get to 5.13, so all those routes in the 80'2 had nothing to do with 5.13 or the modern frigging that goes on today. Again the word COMMITMENT!
Most climbers did not make routes run out on purpose, most of the time you got the stance that worked or you just kept going.
Cookie Monster is a prime example of where sport climbing f*#ks up the spirit of climbing. I did that route (1st pitch) ground up, placed all the gear and placed the pin on stance and got the red point. Other climbers tried it, had to resort of rapping in to place gear. I left the valley for the season and by the next year, rap bolting had taken over and it got bolted without my permission.
Commitment is what the sport has always been based on until now, and to take routes that have character and bring them down to some wanker's level, kills what little values and history and flavor we have left. If you want to clip bolts all day long then go to jail house or somewhere else.
Maybe instead of looking to bring a route down to your level, maybe you should strive to taste adventure and learn what the word committed means. Then when you do get the send it will be that much sweeter....Plus, with todays modern gear and small cams, there are a ton more gear possibilities than in the 80's, so another reason to go for it!
I cringe for the day that we become so sanitized and scared that climbing loses it's last thread of flavor and risk. I still love this sport and those routes have a ton of history and meaning to myself and many others. So find another line until you are ready to walk on the wild side....the reward will be greater than the risk and the memories will not fade like most sport climbs of today.
Kurt Smith
|
|
Degaine
climber
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 10:24am PT
|
Nice post, Kurt!
Kurt wrote: … ended up way out from the last bolt, wishing i was at Tenaya lake drinking a beer.
Ha! Ain’t that the truth.
Kurt wrote: Commitment is what the sport has always been based on until now, and to take routes that have character and bring them down to some wanker's level, kills what little values and history and flavor we have left.
For all the Internet whining and bitching that goes on, I can’t think of many (or any) run out routes in CA that have been retrobolted – Hair raiser buttress seems to be the one route in question that comes up as the exception to the rule to get everybody’s panties in a bunch.
Sorry, though, that your route Cookie Monster was retro’d.
Kurt wrote: Plus, with todays modern gear and small cams, there are a ton more gear possibilities than in the 80's, so another reason to go for it!
I think that’s one of the key points people claiming “the FA party purposely ran it out” forget: different times, different equipment.
Anyway, again, nice post.
|
|
the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 10:36am PT
|
I agree with the views presented, but I don't think that post is going to change anybody's minds. It's too inflammatory.
Why didn't you chop the bolts?
|
|
snyd
Sport climber
Lexington, KY
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 10:37am PT
|
Amen brother!
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 11:07am PT
|
Just to clarify, Here is a post from Werner on a thread about Cookie Monster
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=19928
"To all you obsessive folks with your bolt problems;
Dave Shultz first bolted it...ask him why, not me. For your info Kurt Smith almost died trying this route on the first ascent. He had his friend aid it with pitons and nuts and cams. (Friend was very inexperienced with placing pitons) At the crux he placed two Lost arrows. When Kurt tried to lead it he fell at this crux. As I was lowering him the pins shifted and if they had come out he would have hit the deck.(they came out by hand). The consciousness at the time was not about bolts or pins or clean but in doing this line free. The rock is fairly crumbly in various places and several KEY holds have broken in the past years making some of the moves harder. Nuts and cams can rip out easily on this cimb and you know the scenario that can result. Most of you haven't seen enough of the people we've picked up at the base after one of these hit the deck missions. Get a life folks and go climbing stop worrying about all this bolt sh#t. Werner Braun"
Edit: for comparison's sake, here's what Kurt wrote:
"Cookie Monster is a prime example of where sport climbing f*#ks up the spirit of climbing. I did that route (1st pitch) ground up, placed all the gear and placed the pin on stance and got the red point. Other climbers tried it, had to resort of rapping in to place gear. I left the valley for the season and by the next year, rap bolting had taken over and it got bolted without my permission. "
Which was it?
peace
Karl
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
|
Another angle on all this. I once ran into a bolt clearly placed on rappel just so that something like a 5.8 move had to be done on crumbling rock while looking at a 70 footer to the deck. An easy stance for placing the bolt on the lead was perhaps six feet lower down.
What do I learn from this? If you are going to count on other people placing protection( of any kind) for you, take into consideration a few incomplete six paks are walking around out there. Other than that, when on a rope go up when you are comfortable. Down when you are not. Both directions allow you to learn. Both are cool.
|
|
Big
climber
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
|
People that piss and moan about where bolts are located on "ground-up" routes have obviously never put one up. Heading out into no-mans land is an incredible feeling. It's amazing how much harder a grade feels when your well out past the last piece of pro. 10+ suddenly feels 12-. It's also amazing how easy it feels when you clean it.
Don't get me wrong sport climbing is load of fun, but 5.hard rarely leaves the lasting impression that the mentally challenging routes do. At least for me they don't. In my experience, campfire stories rarely revolve around the wicked hard send, even at sport crags. Everyone wants to hear about the time you almost died because you pitched 20' out from the tiny RP and it held.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 03:04pm PT
|
" ...The true and honest statement about running it out would have been made by someone climbing at their limit, not 2 number grades below it... "
Bachar wasn't "true and honest??"
I don't really think that the validity of doing a runout climb has to come from being at your very limit. Rather, it is about being in your comfort zone. I'd apply the same logic to free soloing as well.
There are plenty of routes to go around. Some are bold. Some are not. Take your pick.
And three cheers for the General...
|
|
Colt
climber
Midpines
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 04:13pm PT
|
I agree...don't add bolts to establish routes.
There is point, however, where the "I got here first" mentality for first acentionists doesn't hold water for me. If Johnny Runout crams in a single 5.9X at an existing 5.8-5.10 sport crag I would not necesarily defend his style. I am sure there are better example, but I gotta run. 19 times out of 20 I am in the don't add bolts camp...may be 29 out of 30.
On the note of style, what style was Keeper of the Flame put up in. All natural right?
|
|
Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 04:42pm PT
|
Kurt,
Howdy dude!
I agree with your post in principal, as a Tuolumne local through the 80's I was inspired by your bold achievements in that era.
As with any bold artist, we can appreciate the body of work, and still critique specific pieces. I was really critical of one of your routes, The Kid on Medlicott. The story I heard at the time was that you had the belayer mark the rope at the groundfall point, so that you could purposefully and boldly punch it up the homogenous 10b black streak another 10 feet before getting on a hook (hands are sweating typing this, yikes man!) and drilling. At the time I was chief guide at YMS, and tried to take the big picture/community viewpoint, so the point I made in the rat room and parking lot back then was that it would be a real bummer, when some newbie 510 knob seeking guy (without the hook option) went up there misjudging the distance and cratered and his partner came to the lot with bloody hands to tell you about it. Probably never happened, but I wonder if anyone climbs it today? A monument to your young bravery, sure, but kind of too bad that someone else did not put it up without the groundfall.
Changing such things should only be done with the blessing and input of the first ascentionists, but with changing times, I think there could be routes that could benefit from adjustment for safety.
Other bold and hard routes, that you did in such exemplary style in the 80's stand out still as some of Americas best. My opinion from the sidelines on one route takes nothing away from my respect for your formidible contribution to that era.
Peter
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 06:14pm PT
|
"some wanker's level"
I resemble that remark.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 07:00pm PT
|
First, I neither bolt nor chop and I don't advocate much. I just want to say what I see.
Which is that climbing ethics will pretty much remain the way they always have been, a community concensus heavily weighted by those who are most emotional about it and with reference but not obedience to the past.
Nobody can predict how this will turn out, like sport climbing or everybody soloing like stolby.
After us codgers are all dead, the crags might be flooded with climbers looking for moderates to do, or they might be deserted as nobody can afford $30 per gallon gas and it's epic enough to stay alive.
The new climbers, raised in the gym might read these old posts and embrace the past and dust off the old routes, or they might bolt em.
It might happen by rogue elements or maybe there will be committees to review routes to judge their future.
Unknown forces set change in motion. A vocal enough superstar, the wrong person dying.
For better or worse, in the past, all the following were condemned as unethical:
Chalk
Topos
rap-bolting
cams
Fixing ropes
power drilling
hang-dogging
bolting at all for pro
hanging on hooks to bolt
Much of the ethics noted in Kurt's post are directed at the commitment and experience of the first ascent party. Nobody else get's to decide where they need pro on a face climb. There are several schools of thought on FA's
1. FA party makes it's statement, as bold as possible.
2. FA party creates route as public service, sacrificing adventure at times to make something that people of that grade can climb either safely or not dying
3. FA party puts up a sport climb
They all have their place. Personally I respect the public service types more. Cookie monster would have about 4 ascents by now if you had to protect it ground up like Kurt says he did and Werner says he didn't. Is it a shame or a blessing the Dave bolted it? Or both?
Peace
Karl
Edit: I should note that having someone else pre-protect your new route like a sport climb in advance may still allow you to say you did it ground up onsight in a sense, so I'm not calling Kurt a liar, but I wish his initial post had been more clear since he said it was the perfect example.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 07:23pm PT
|
hmm, well this is pretty clear cut, cause I'm only guilty on, let's see, all of those unethicaliosities. But, still, you don't remake art from before your time. I'm not adding chicken bolts to the B-Y until after I paint on Mona Lisa's mustache.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 07:29pm PT
|
Jaybro: You're totally wrong and unethical. Mona Lisa needs a beard, and would be significantly improved and made more accessible to the masses with one. A retro-mustache would be contrary to community mores and styles and ethics, and if anything would make her less accessible.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 07:32pm PT
|
I'm with Kurt. I like to respect the FA style. But I've suggested the addition of a bolt or two on a few of my routes, because I either led them on lousy gear, ran out of bolts, or didn't use a stance and regretted it but got past the hard part and continued.
As to hedges comment about climbing bold closer to your limits: my hardest on-sights ever were only around 11+ or 12-, yet I did a bunch of runout 10's and 11's. Does that qualify those routes for preservation? If so, it's too late for a number of them as they've already been retro-bolted.
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 07:34pm PT
|
I don't see a lot of good coming out of the bolt wars. And leaving things as they are is perhaps the lowest common denominator that most climbers can agree on.
However, what about the routes that are so bold, that not only does no one repeat them, but no one bothers rebolting them.
When the quarter inch bolts have rusted into oblivion, can another party do a ground up ascent putting in bolts where they will? Or do the rust stains mark for all time the only sanctioned spots?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 07:38pm PT
|
If we're going to retro the Mona-Lisa, I say add hooters!
More wouldn't be unwelcome at the crag either.
Then the bolting debate would lose some of its edge too.
;-)
Karl
|
|
G_Gnome
Sport climber
Everywhere, man...
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 07:38pm PT
|
I wonder how many leads The Kid has had. It is a fine toprope for those not inclined to face death though and gets done this way from time to time. I suppose the Meadows will be one of the first to be peer reviewed in the future. It has had some bold a$$ lines put up and I know lots of people would love to do some of those routes but never will because of the risks. I have led some of them and will never lead others. I think that's how it should be. Find your comfort level but leave the routes so that others can find their own too. There are some badass boys out there doing all the hard and scary routes at Tuolumne still and I applaud them. If you aren't one of them then go do something you can do but don't deny the future the ability to find it's own high level.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 07:41pm PT
|
"and IF by chance the parties involved on a FA are no longer with us???...
then the opportunity is GONE so...
LEAVE IT ALONE!!!..."
yup, Harding is finished, when are we going to chop those retro-bolts on Changing Corners, Texas Flake, and elsewhere?
Peace
karl
|
|
yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 08:14pm PT
|
vrrooooooooom!!!!11
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 08:19pm PT
|
I never put my money in my mouth,
All those germs .....
|
|
Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 08:22pm PT
|
I think it is a matter of taste and durability. I would never advocate adding bolts to what I perceive to be "master piece" lines, such as "You Asked For It", Bachar Yerian, etc. Other lines, more generic like "the kid", with what I think could be called contrived danger, or preprotected with unsustainable pin placements like Cookie Monster, may call for a more nuanced approach. But then there is no accounting for taste, and who am I to say, when, though I have clipped, climbed and enjoyed the Cookie Monster numerous times, I have not yet ventured on these grand runout routes.
Peter
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 08:27pm PT
|
"vrrooooooooom!!!!11"
AND THEY'RE OFF
and it's Jello by neck
no, it's Maysho by a nose
no, it's mungie in the lead
correction, mungie on the top rope
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 08:28pm PT
|
My point, Joe, is that the motivation/committment of the first ascenders doesn't seem to matter to those who don't respect them. They'll retro-bolt in any case, thus changing the nature and character of the climb.
-Jello
|
|
the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 11:22pm PT
|
"For better or worse, in the past, all the following were condemned as unethical:
Chalk Topos rap-bolting
hang-dogging
bolting at all for pro
hanging on hooks to bolt"
I read that in Moravia if you fall once you have to quit climbing forever.
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
|
Jul 24, 2007 - 11:35pm PT
|
Just out of curiosity,, what type of bolts were used on Bacher Yerian, and when will they need replacing?
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2007 - 12:09am PT
|
"...What do I learn from this? If you are going to count on other people placing protection( of any kind) for you, take into consideration a few incomplete six paks are walking around out there. Other than that, when on a rope go up when you are comfortable. Down when you are not. Both directions allow you to learn. Both are cool...
Best post in this thread--although I doubt anyone noticed.
Curt
|
|
Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2007 - 03:11pm PT
|
Curt,
I'm with you on that one.
Am I mistaken that some time around 89, Kirt and Mike Pont put up a route in Boulder Canyon where they either glued of bolted a hand hold on the route as there was no other way to finish it, for them.
Where does something like that fit in? At the time I sort of thought that is was no big deal, but now I tend to agree with Kirt's current stance. Actually more so with Jello's stance.
Prod.
|
|
James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2007 - 07:16pm PT
|
In the past few weeks, I've spent more than a few days out at South Whizz Dome in Toulumne. The steep knob routes are on high quality rock and feature excelent pumpy face climbing. On the right side of the cliff there is a log, which has been propped up and supported by a pile of rocks. The face above the log features delicate low angle climbing to a ledge. The route continues up a black streak through a series of steepening and increasingly large knobs. Blackout is classic. It's 11b section is well protected- there are two bolts and a small alien or tricam placement. However, the first fifty feet of climbing have no protection whatsoever--you can't even duct tape a sling around a knob.
The route was first done as a top-rope by John Bachar and then it was led, ground-up by Kurt Smith. I know of only one other climber who led this route ground-up onsight- Drew "The Iceman" Rollins
This route, if it had an additional bolt or two at the bottom, would make an excellent lead. Those bolts don't exist though. one could argue that since aid, the log, is used to reach the face then aiding additional bolts isn't a big deal. You could also argue all about purity, and how a harder variation to the face exists.
Whatever, I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for bolts on Blackout to be drilled. I'll settle for a toprope and hope that one day I'll have the boldness to headpoint the route. It's okay that there are dangerous routes out there. Drew wouldn't be such a badass if Blackout was grid bolted. It's nice to have some hardmen around.
|
|
Dickly
Trad climber
Utah
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 12:17pm PT
|
I f*#king love bolts. f*#king love them.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 01:22pm PT
|
Dickly, weak dude. You obviously need to work on your thread revival skillz:-)
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Trad climber
North of the Owyhees
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 01:37pm PT
|
We(Minerals & I) chopped some bolts at the Texas flake once....Does this mean they've returned??
WTF!!!??
|
|
atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:15pm PT
|
Bolting myths? Like the myth that older generations of climbers have any say over what younger generations of climbers are bolting or that their opinions matter?
|
|
Wack
climber
Dazevue
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
|
"Again the word COMMITMENT!"
Walking through the C4 lot a couple of decades ago I came upon 2 industrious guys trying to grind a drill bit with a hand crank grinder bolted to a piece of plywood. They were attempting to reconfigure the bit from cutting steel to granite per Tucker's sample. As a Journeyman Machinist I offered to help, as it's a part of our skill set. With one man cranking like mad we were able to duplicate Tucker's bit. We had a round of ice cold beers to celebrate. It turned out that this homemade bit and others like it ground in a VW van were used on the FA of Keeper Of The Flame.
Back on the project it was time for a bolt, Kurt found a stance, pulled up some pins trying for enough support to drill, no go. Rather then bail he continued to search for an answer with the pump meter running on this steep route. The ingenious solution spawned by desperation and the desire to succeed was to use a hook on a vertical edge and lay back off of it while drilling. Amazing and inspirational, regretfully I lost the video that I shot.
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
|
atchaewhateva,
The truth of the matter is the first ascensionist will always own each particular experience regardless of what future gen's think. 'Second truth: those who choose to change the experience for their level of mental competence don't realize they are just short-changing themselves..."Stupid is as stupid does."
 ec
|
|
OTCGENO
Trad climber
CALIFORNIA
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:38pm PT
|
Hey Kurt.
I agree with you 100 percent. The bottom line is this: If you can't deal with the runout, don't climb it.
Every crag has it's classic test piece. The route that everybody wishes they had the cajones to climb. These are the routes that encourage us to train, to dream, to succeed (or crater). No one has the right to take these routes from us.
I'll never forget climbing Pressure Sensitive at Morro Rock, or The Wonder Wall at Whitney Portal, or Such A Savage at Josh.
I've put up a lot of routes, all of them were done from the ground up.
My first bolt was on Thin Ice at the Rincon (Hey Kris, Big E, Rob B. remember the Rincon?). I didn't know it when I left the deck, but the route was 5.11c. This was as hard as I could climb at the time. I used a hand drill. I't took me 45 minutes to get that hole drilled. The last bolt was far enough away that I probably would have decked if I came off.
I wouldn't trade that experience for anything.
Be bold. You'll remember it longer and it makes for a better campfire story.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 03:39pm PT
|
Not that I really disagree with the thrust of the original post Kurt,
But darnit' sometimes we take ourselves a little too seriously here.
And not to get into a pissing match Kurt ('cause you know I love you), nor to deconstruct your esteemed career or otherwise cause a dustup, but jeepers, throughout your climbing experience at one time or another you've engaged nearly every dirty trick in the book. So a little perspective is sometimes warranted. Run outs and boldness are terrific gestures, but the pious grandstanding sometimes gets out of hand.
Looking forward to seeing more of your slides scanned and posted up from the old days!
Your Buddy,
Roy
|
|
east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 04:02pm PT
|
I'm with you kid 100%, Maysho, I think you bring up a good point. People should reaaly check out the routes and their skill levels BEFORE they becide to jump on them. I think adding bolts so the average wanker( like me) can do the route "safely" is lame, it totally compromises the soul of the climb. Each climb has it's own flavor some spicey some not so. Let the FA party decide the flavor then decide if you want to taste it.There are alot of climbs I'd love to do (Bachar-Yerian) but propably never will unless someday (doubt it!)I pull out enough sack to do it and thats ok.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
|
Holy sh*t Geno - is that you??
I still go up to the Rincon seveeral times every winter. Such a place. Of course by now we have picked most of the cherries. All ground up, every one a great memory...
I'll send you a proper email after New Years...
|
|
atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 05:13pm PT
|
ecwhateva, I agree with you. I was referring to bolting myths.
|
|
FeelioBabar
climber
Sneaking up behind you...
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 06:12pm PT
|
Hey Kurt,
Amen.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Trad climber
North of the Owyhees
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
|
Bolting is a myth.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 07:33pm PT
|
This is about a worn out subject that you can possibly think of in climbing. Very few routes have been retro-bolted. Plain and simple.
Why don't we talk about what this younger generation of bad asses are doing...it's much more interesting.
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
|
back atcha,
yer right tho', nobody down the road will give a sh*t what I think!
LOL - ecforU2say
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
Now there's a myth: that Pressure Sensitive on Moro Rock gets climbed. OCTGENO, yeow! That's some serious sh*t!
ec
|
|
James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
|
|
I just got off of a strange night bouncing at the bar I work at. I am too awake to sleep and too tired to think. So, I decided to join in on the asinine conversation of bolting.
Alex Honnold and I went to the Cookie. We ran laps on the Cookie Monster-Alex climbed twice as many as I. We clipped the bolts without a second thought. It is unfortunate that the route was retro-bolted. The metal steals the aesthetics.
Since the bolts are there, I will clip them. Beyond the important damage to the aesthetics, It is a shame that there is no more commitment to the Cookie Monster; it is a sterilized sport climb. But I am not ashamed to take the easier road out and clip the bolts if that is what's there for me.
The advantage of having this route paved is that it can be used as a training ground for the steep granite of the Westie Face of Leaning Tower, The Quantum Mechanic on the Column, or for the physical fitness of a free solo of Moonlight Buttress. The training from clipping bolts can be used to move the commitment of our sport farther into steeper and harder terrain.
I do not condone retro bolting. It is an unfortunate truth in climbing that he who does, makes the rules. The man who bolted the Cookie Monster set the standard. The man who chops the route will set the new standard. Until action is taken there is nothing but a bunch of late night internet lurkers waxing poetic about lost glory. Excuse me but I do believe I am done waxing off on the internet for the evening. I need to go to sleep.
|
|
johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
|
|
A lot of talk about, if you can't handle it, stay off. Or, don't dummy it down to your level with more bolts.
If the FA put in bolts every 30-40 foot or so, didn't he dumb it down already to some degree of comfort? And where's the, "can't handle it, stay off it", mentality to the FA in respect to adding any bolts period?
First come, first serve = selfish service when were dealing with public rock. I'll respect the FA's out there, but to expect that everyone follow an unwritten law is not being realistic. Just the way it is.
I would never add or subtract bolts to a route, just asking if these aren't double standards.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
James said:
"The advantage of having this route paved..."
hahahahahahahaha
Having this route paved!
Dude, you can really turn a phrase.
What a pearl !!!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
"Well, this is about mythology, isn't it Roy? ;-)"
Ha!
Mr Stich,
Your hand should be slapped for reaching into that naughty cookie jar. 'Maybe one teeny tiny bite...
Mr Smith has established quite an impressive body of bold work.
Sure, with some few exceptions, some experimentation & deviation from the purist path. I think that experience can empower a strong position in these matters: it doesn't nesessarily disqualify or detract. Yet pushing it deep into the shadow produces a cold soup unwarmed by humility.
The stock hero worshipers will always eat it up, but the jihadist stance on purist style won't win any swing voters.
As an example, (and not to say it should be altered), to my mind, badass doesn't in every case equal visionary. At the time it went up, I felt "The Kid" was more a show of unbridaled avarice rather than an inspired contribution.
|
|
BrassNuts
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
'The Kid' says in his original post: "Commitment is what the sport has always been based on until now, and to take routes that have character and bring them down to some wanker's level, kills what little values and history and flavor we have left. If you want to clip bolts all day long then go to jail house or somewhere else. Maybe instead of looking to bring a route down to your level, maybe you should strive to taste adventure and learn what the word committed means".
An interesting statement from someone that installed 8 bolt on holds and manufactured pockets on an overhanging wall in Clear Creek Canyon CO so the route could be "free climbed"... If this isn't bringing a route "down to your level", then what is? Fundamentally, it's no different than a "wanker" such as myself adding holds or bolts to an ultra bold Tuolumne 5.12+X so I can climb it. Can you say "double standard"? While I certainly respect The Kid's climbing ability and many of the routes he established over the years, it seems silly to stand on such a soap box when the termites of the past are chewing on it's base......... munch munch ;-)
Edit: I completely agree with the concept that boldness and commitment are extremely important and worthy in climbing, but the delivery in the initial post is questionable. My $ .02 worth.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
Ouch......Kurt, time to step back into your own conversation.
I too respect boldness, and trying to leave things as the first ascent team.
I never measured a rope for ground fall potential or bolted on a hold either. I'm not saying it was or wasn't done..I don't know.
I have done some bold things and some questionable things myself, so I won't be casting too many stones...
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
....HAH.... bitter,envious colorado wanker alert !!!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Right on Al,
How are things out in your neck of the woods?
This is really a boldness appreciation thread.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Trad climber
North of the Owyhees
|
|
It's a myth, a myth, I tell ya.
The Ancients used to bolt the mountains....Zeus used to carry a couple everywhere He went.
Such things have been lost in modern times.
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
Yo Roy - just a little New Years deli spray *
When you comin west ?
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
'Looks like late April.
I have been in touch with Kurt: he will also be making out.
The wind is blowing hard out here, yow, no foolin'.
(Double entendre works too.)
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
C'mon Kurt post up!
Ears burning yet?
Take a break from that lucrative repping job.
We need pictures.
Glory days.
Electric Africa?
|
|
Prod
Trad climber
|
|
Just Curious, did "The Kid" ever answer to these actions?
An interesting statement from someone that installed 8 bolt on holds and manufactured pockets on an overhanging wall in Clear Creek Canyon CO so the route could be "free climbed"... If this isn't bringing a route "down to your level", then what is? Fundamentally, it's no different than a "wanker" such as myself adding holds or bolts to an ultra bold Tuolumne 5.12+X so I can climb it. Can you say "double standard"? While I certainly respect The Kid's climbing ability and many of the routes he established over the years, it seems silly to stand on such a soap box when the termites of the past are chewing on it's base......... munch munch ;-)
I never measured a rope for ground fall potential or bolted on a hold either. I'm not saying it was or wasn't done..I don't know.
Prod.
|
|
LilaBiene
Trad climber
|
|
I'm trying r e a l l y hard to understand how one avoids climbing the wrong way, but just when I think I'm starting to have a grasp on things...
For an outdoor adventure that's purportedly supposed to be as unique as each person interprets it, there sure are apparently a lot of damn rules and even more people looking over one's shoulders commenting on one's compliance with said "rules".
Quoting Steve Roper from Camp 4, quoting Dave Brower (in 1963), quoting John Salathé: "Vy can't ve chust climb!"
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
<crickets>
do as I say not as I do.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 61 of total 61 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!