Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 55 of total 55 in this topic |
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 15, 2007 - 02:43pm PT
|
Could someone please provide some instruction on bolting, both for limestone and granite. The time has come to develop some areas that have long laid untouched by human hands.
There are plenty of threads to discuss the ethics of bolting, please go spray slander in those, this thread is for technikal aspects of bolting.
Thanks in advance.
BB
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 02:58pm PT
|
Drill a hole;...hammer the bolt in the hole....tighten the bolt......I know I make it sound simple;...it is. there are all sorts of little details which make this simple process more efficient;...this will come with practice. Be responsible with your placements. Once you start puttin' bolts in rocks, EVERYONE will want to tell you all about it;...too many, not enough, wrong place, ...this and that;.....it's sticky business, but rewarding, interesting, challenging, and alot of fun. Good luck, and have fun!
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2007 - 03:09pm PT
|
Thanks Todd. The drill the hole part was especially enlightening.
:)
Couple more questions:
1. Ground up, I can put em wherever I want, top down I put them where they make the most sense?
2. On aretes and routes traversing the lips of caves, the bolts should all be on one facet of rock, correct? IE, doesn't cross back and forth across the arete or under the roof/on the headwall...
3. My neighbor is a machinist and we'll be making hangers. Any recomendations. He's all up on what's strongest/most brittle/etc...but some practical experience would speed things along.
Cheers!
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 03:15pm PT
|
Make sure you brush and blow out the hole.
304 is what most hangers are nowadays.
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2007 - 03:19pm PT
|
Blow out the hole I get but what do you mean by brush? Brush around the surface of the hole? Or do you have a brush for the inside of the hole?
Thanks!
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 03:22pm PT
|
1. Ground up, I can put em wherever I want, top down I put them where they make the most sense?
Uh, I believe that you have this BACKASSWARDS!
 ec
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 03:22pm PT
|
BB.....I always put bolts in on the lead;..it's a silly game I play......most people are smarter than me and put them in on rap;....then you ALWAYS put them in the perfect places. Tap the rock to see if there are "bad" or hollow/loose sections. Home-made hangers are cool, cheaper, and funky;....but it's probably best to stick with the store bought ones;...they are tested, very safe, and people don't whine about quality control with the homemade ones.....(Personally;..I like funky home-made stuff....it's interesting to me...) A bad bolt habit can get expensive;..then you need to go to a 13-step program with counciling and group meetings to get rid of your bad habit, so be careful. Make sure you follow local guidelines about what and how things have been done in your area in the past. Try hand-drilling FIRST;...then you will appreciate fully the ease and speed of the electric drill.......try both on the lead and rap. Take alot of pictures, and bring along hot chicks to watch your heroics. And don't forget the beer! Have fun!...(Beer, bolts, and babes.)
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
|
EC, I don't get it. Ground up, I put in a bolt when I want to, either because of the stance or I'm gripped. Top down, I toprope the sh#t out of the route, think about clipping stances and rests and place the bolts where they should go.
Toddo, the local ethics at this place suck: chipped holds and redtagged first bolts everywhere, the odd bolted crack. I'm going to put in routes of a higher quality and ethical purity. Homemade it is for now, maybe someone with the hookup will fear for all the lives I'll be endangering with homemade junk (I love urosite bolts btw!!!) and send me a pile of hangers.
I don't know any hot chicks besides my wife and she wants no part of this endeavor but beer and bonghi...wait, you didn't mention those. Anyway, fun it is!
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 03:37pm PT
|
Oh BB, this troll is so beneath you. Can't you do better? You have posted some of the more hilarious threads in the past. What's up?
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
|
EC, I don't get it. Ground up, I put in a bolt when I want to, either because of the stance or I'm gripped. Top down, I toprope the sh#t out of the route, think about clipping stances and rests and place the bolts where they should go.
Ground-up: actually you are placing a bolt because as you say, your gripped (most likely, for good reason), thus that is where the bolt should go.
Top Down: You are actually placing them where YOU want them. Maybe in your mind this is where they should go. IMHO, it may not be the best possible placement, depending on the type of route you are doing.
Reality: After climbing the route with the bolts placed from the top, you may feel like your doing someone else's route...the thrill just may be gone (or taken away).
ec
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 04:01pm PT
|
OK....some more ideas. Things are alot more complex if done on the lead, but WAY more fun and WAY more exciting. My granny can rap bolt, but she can't put in bolts on the lead. On the lead,...ya got to be organized. Have the bolts already in the hangers; ready, cocked and loaded. Have the bolts, blow tube, wrench in one bag, but nothing else;....don't want too much in the "business" bag. Have flexable plastic tubing for blowtube;...some use a bic pen exterior, but that's for rap bolters who like dust in their face anyways. Bring hooks (talon is best), rurps, copperheads, pins ( mostly thin bugaboos, L A's, KB's), and skinny slings to tie off bumps, chickenheads, horns. Bring aiders, and lots of extra biners.
When I hand-drill, I will leave more Fixed pins just because it's alot of work and time to hand-drill;...when I use power, I will just as well use a bolt as a fixed pin;...creeps steal fixed pins..(guess they aren't fixed then, are they?). Did I mention the beer and babes part? I dont' use a wire brush or hammer to clean ;..just hands and feet....wire brushing often leaves ugly marks and hammering on loose holds is WAY cheating....Place bolts high enough so midgets can't clip them, and shrips have to use "stiffies." Don't create "death" routes, and don't get hurt or your wife will be pissed. You are not "supposed" to remove vegetation (bushes, branches, plants, sticker-bushes), and you are not supposed to drive over 55 mph or smoke pot. (your call). If you are hand-drilling, please be courtious and supply your belayer with lots of booze and cigarettes;...it's a very boring, time consuming process....Belayer need the helmet more than the leader...loose stuff is always coming down. Don't carry alot of stuff;... just keep it at the base and ask for it, and haul it up on the haul line. Don't come down from the lead if you can help it.....unless you got to moan the pipes or take a bong hit;....once you come down, you sometimes grow chicken feathers. If you are using 5 piece rawls, don't forget to take the little blue sticker off the end of the bolt;...this sticker is placed on your t-shirt;...when you are finally finished with the route, you get to check out all the cool little blue stickers you have on your shirt. Bring plenty of chalk and make sure you get chalk on your face for the photos;...it's more dramatic;...sort of like war paint on a warrior. Always remember;...you can always go up, down, left , or right. Putting up routes on the lead is usually so involved and ingrossing, that the usual mocking , jeering, and belittling from people on the ground or your belayer...is much more easily ignored , or not even heard....(It's a strange phenomina.....)....Try to climb when others are NOT around;....many people have very STRONG feeling about people who drill permanent holes in mother nature's rocks. Never forget that rock is ugly until it has chalk and bolts in it. Nothing finer than to look up a rock face and see some petzel hangers winking at ya. Have fun! Hope this helps. If this is a troll, and I'm giving away my hard earned "secrets".....well......shame on you;...maybe someone ELSE can use these valuable hints;...especially the beer and babes part....(although that is pretty much common knowlege, isn't it?)
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2007 - 04:21pm PT
|
Todd, Robert gives me too much credit, I'm not smart enough to troll. Good advice for sure. Since this will all be done solo (neighbor will make me hangers but has no interest in seeing them placed...), and one of the intended targets is a giant limestone ampitheater, with the lip of the great cave 60' out from the base, not sure how much ground up will be going on. The other area, granite, will probably be ground up except for this one arete (12c ish on TR) that I don't want to f*#k up by ground upping. Plus it has no holds other than the arete so I'm not sure what I'd hook, unless there's some sideways hooking techniques I need to learn.
EC, I feel you now. My friend who bolted all these limestone routes (and wrote the name and grade at the base) has his wife TR them as well as other people of differing heights to try and come to a consensus for best bolt locations.
|
|
jackass
climber
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 05:17pm PT
|
"Don't come down from the lead if you can help it.....once you come down, you sometimes grow chicken feathers."
Yes. Depending on what you are climbing (think desert sandstone) the chicken feathers grow very fast, and there are a lot of reasons/excuses that you will give yourself to go down. Don't, because getting your ass back up there is easier said then done. Also, drilling on lead is a lot harder, both physically and mentally, than it looks.
One tip: clip a quickdraw or the like to the hanger before you start to tighten the bolt, pull down on it with one hand while you start tightening the bolt with the other. This gives you better balance, but more importantly makes your chances of getting a spinner much more rare. Spinners be damned. Oh yeah, maybe most importantly, don't OVER tighten/ over torque the bolts.
Your home made hanger idea is pretty short sighted if you are going to be bolting things that are going to see much traffic. Not only that, but ultimately people are going to be trusting their lives to your work. If you f*#k up, any accidents will be on your conscience. I don't think you want to take that chance, it could keep you up at night. You can get pagan gear hangers for a buck and a half each, no need to go broke. However, if you are putting up obscure routes or bolt ladders, then weird and wild hangers are welcome.
|
|
hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 06:02pm PT
|
"Never forget that rock is ugly until it has chalk and bolts in it."
Hahaha, I love it. (assuming we are staring up a blank face and not a fantastic splitter..)
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 06:29pm PT
|
Carefull BB, if you take Todd's advice you'll end up pregnant...
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 06:37pm PT
|
Power to the people, right on!
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 06:40pm PT
|
Oh, my aching back....
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 06:42pm PT
|
Use a power drill in the wilderness...go to jail....(This is a very bad man...)
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2007 - 07:29pm PT
|
However, if you are putting up obscure routes or bolt ladders, then weird and wild hangers are welcome.
Guidebooks have caused more damage to access than a dumptruck load of bolts. These routes will be obscure to say the least, and anyone climbing there will know me personally and the full history of the mank.
Anybody with some limestone bolting experience wanna chime in? I belayed a d00d in thailand aiding on vietnamese wood screws, I don't wanna go that route!
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 07:35pm PT
|
My neighbor is a machinist and we'll be making hangers. Any recomendations. He's all up on what's strongest/most brittle/etc...but some practical experience would speed things along.
In the olden days, people would cut short lengths of angle-stock (steel or aluminum) and then drill two holes, one for the bolt and one for the carabiner. Some of them now only accept ancient oval biners because that hole was made too small.
There was a notorious case of somebody jugging the last pitch of the Nose, coming off the jugs, falling to the end of the rope tie-in, and a square-topped hanger cutting the rope. I don't remember when this was. It might not have been the last pitch of the Nose, but that is what I remember.
Make sure the upper surface of your ghetto hangers have a sloped surface, like the commercial ones do. Make sure you also radius the bottom corner near the clip-in hole.
EDIT: Your hangers will cost more than commercial ones, unless your neighbor works for free. Also, the dimples on the back of the commercial ones keep water from getting trapped and speeding the inevitable corrosion process.
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2007 - 07:37pm PT
|
Tom, good thought. We'll mill a radius on every surface to ensure no rope snaggage.
This thread is freakin' awesome!!!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 07:40pm PT
|
Jon says
Are you sure you know WTF you're doing?
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2007 - 07:52pm PT
|
Werner, you tell that lurking fvcker to get his ass back north and show me how it's done.
Native Son, my ass!!!!
And to answer his question, obviously knottt!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 08:37pm PT
|
Jon says you better learn how to climb harder than 5.7 before you start drilling holes.
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 08:39pm PT
|
A well drilled route is a pleasure to climb
Taken out of context, this sounds like what a complete noob would say after clipping 30 bolts on a free pitch 8-)
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 09:00pm PT
|
Let the ladies teach you how it's done... (Anchor for belay only....a belay anchor to protect a big jump across span..)
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 09:06pm PT
|
Are you sure that's how it's done?
Next hammer blow by lady will miss it's mark because she's looking somewhere else other than the task at hand.
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2007 - 09:40pm PT
|
Werner, please remind Mr. Nose In A Day who bitched out to go TR some chossy crack with his gf and old man when the hardpersons were off flashing V7's.
Note that I said V and not 5.
Said dad on said chossy crack....
And since I'm in my photobucket account, Idaho Gneiss...riverfront even.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Jul 15, 2007 - 10:53pm PT
|
Tom, I always thought that the dimples on some (Fixe) hangers were to help the hanger from spinning on the rock when tightened. It seems the dimple is to small to keep the hanger enough away from the rock to allow moisture displacement. But hey, I've been known to be wrong in the past (many times).
|
|
jackass
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 08:34am PT
|
Mad rock hangers for under a buck a piece? Where? Do tell.
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2007 - 03:34pm PT
|
haha DMT, I tried that.
"marty, you should see this wall..."
marty climbs 5.14 and doesn't care about 5.easy.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
|
BB: "The time has come to develop some areas that have long laid untouched by human hands."
Perhaps it would be wise to be certain that the owner of the land, or its manager, is agreeable to your putting bolts in it, and so all the other things that may result - removing vegetation and loose rocks, scrubbing, increased human traffic, etc.
It would definitely be wise to avoid use of the word "develop" in relation to relatively natural lands. Develop is often a dirty word to land managers, particularly where there are high natural values. It implies D-9s, explosives, subdivisions, and all the rest. A much better and possibly more accurate word is "create". We create new routes as we establish a new climbing area, aka recreational resource.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 03:56pm PT
|
If you can't afford bolts, just use recycled rebar.
|
|
G_Gnome
Trad climber
Knob Central
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 04:41pm PT
|
Make sure you don't place your bolts so far above the stance that you jeopardize the safety of those shorter than yourself. You should make sure that the poor woman at 5' 3" can still clip without dying.
|
|
tony b
Trad climber
chossy jersey
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 05:19pm PT
|
Power up hombre !
|
|
the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 05:45pm PT
|
"please provide some instruction on bolting"
Step 1, buy a case of beer and a big bag of...
Step 2, drive to JTree.
Step 3, look up Todd and offer him what you got in step 1
Seriously, you really need someone to check your work when you learn. It's like learning how to lead and place your own pro, if someone checks your work you'll learn much faster, and have more fun. I guess you could teach yourself like Salathe did, but you'll probably f-up a few routes first. And people will probably trust their lives to your bolts, you NEED to do it right.
A couple other notes:
Find a good sized flat area for the hanger to sit flat against. Hit it with your hammer and listen, hit lot's of spots and you'll learn the sound of rock with a solid foundation. A hollow sound is not good. Examine the rock all around, are you on a big flake?
Make your holes a little deeper than they need to be, if you f-up the placement, or someone chops your bolts, then you can punch any remainder bolt that didn't come out into the rock and patch over the top.
For limestone, go bigger than granite. e.g. 1/2" by up to 4 3/4" (longer if you are going up under a roof, less if it's on a slab).
|
|
scuffy b
climber
Bates Creek
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
|
Whether you're using power or a hand drill, it's easier to drill
at about chin height than it is reaching overhead.
That will also guarantee that the bolt is within reach of shorter
people.
|
|
jackass
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 05:56pm PT
|
In regards to bolting above your head. There is a tendency to want to place a bolt as high as possible. However, more often then not, you only end up f*#king up the hole. Plus it is double the work.
|
|
TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 06:12pm PT
|
Paint the hangars to match the rock and run everything way out.
If you do this well enough, someone may come and bolt it with store bought because he did not see yours.
|
|
Wild Bill
climber
Ca
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 06:22pm PT
|
^^Huh huh, awesome TIGR (TradisGood/Raimit)^^
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 07:09pm PT
|
Does this help?
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 07:12pm PT
|
Bend the elbow just so......
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 07:15pm PT
|
Somebody stop him....
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 07:16pm PT
|
Charles Cole with 1/4 inch drill bit in hand....
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jul 16, 2007 - 07:44pm PT
|
Lots and lots of good advice up there.
To add to it, pay attention to the tightening torque BB. If you overdo it, you can weaken the placement. If you have any doubt, look up the Mfg specs and use a torque wrench to get a feel for it. The longer the bolt the greater the strength, which will pay dividends on the softer rock, like limestone. A 6" wrench, snug, gets you approx the 22-25 foot lbs that a 3/8" wedge anchor wants to be set.
Using 1/2 diameter will make snapping off the bolt from poor intallation torque/too much torque a non issue, and it's stronger as well. (total overkill:-)
I don't know why we went from 1/4"dia to 3/8" to 1/2" dia so quickly, but some people do advocate the large sizes. Certainly for softer rock, 1/2" diameter and longer too is better.
Do not put in Steel bolts. Diletic strength, in order of good to bad:
Titanium (best)
type 316 stainless
type 304 (also called 18-8) stainless
Steel, zinc plated (worst) this is just cheap/assed lame assed sh#t to use steel.
Type 316 channel (L stock or corner stock) made into hangers (rounded as noted above) and type 316 wedge anhors picked up from an industrial fastener distributor as Kevin notes above would be a perfect, relatively inexpensive/long term solution.
The brush/tube is for cleaning the hole out. the wedge anchors need some initial friction to stop the sleeve from spinning, if you get a spinner, the bolt will not proplerly tighten up. Sometimes clipping to the hanger and putting outward forces as you wrench it down will overcome this problem (which is rare).
Use sharp bits. Carbide bits wear long, and do not easily bind, but will wear at the edges, changing the hole diameter, and at some point, you can't pound a bolt in, producing a F*ed up mess.
You might try this guy, he's trying to get a supply thing going for these kinds of products and is very reasonable: http://renobclimbing.com/
Also, didn't see this tip, marking your drill bit with athletic tape at the depth you want to drill is a good thing, so you can drill deep enough - but not too deep, it will save you both time and wear and tear on equipment.
Good luck:
Bill
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2007 - 12:51am PT
|
Todd Swain in action.
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2007 - 12:52am PT
|
great pics Todd!
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2007 - 12:58am PT
|
George Armstrong....hand drilling on the lead.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2007 - 01:14am PT
|
The Brother Gaines doing his thing.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 17, 2007 - 02:56pm PT
|
On the lead....Rob Stahl doing it up...Beak Boulders, J.T.......1/4 inch buttonheads, of course.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 19, 2007 - 06:48pm PT
|
F A of Symbolic of Life, (5.11-), J.T.....hand drill, on the lead,...no doubt.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Jul 19, 2007 - 06:54pm PT
|
G. Armstrong, F A ,hand-drilled drilled on the lead, Dimpled Chad, J.T.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Jul 19, 2007 - 08:37pm PT
|
That thar's a perrdy thing. [in reference to Tony b's drill...]
Oh, drill yer holes straight 'n narrow, and deep too.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Jul 19, 2007 - 08:59pm PT
|
i like baby taps to start a hole (not as#@&%e). then wail on em after the beginning of the hole is well defined.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Aug 16, 2007 - 02:22am PT
|
Make sure your sport shoes aren't too tight........
|
|
| Messages 1 - 55 of total 55 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!