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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 12, 2007 - 06:22pm PT
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in a "take your ball and go home" manner, I guess it could be construed as "self" censorship.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 12, 2007 - 06:36pm PT
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this, from a thread killer of so recent time that there is still virtual blood dripping from his keyboard. hehe
Good point, though
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 12, 2007 - 08:17pm PT
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"I woldn't be talking about removing anyone's comments that had anything honestly to do with the subject."
If everyone were like you, there wouldn't be a problem.
The post deleting power would go to all thread-starters and power that can be used can be mis-used. Who'se going to police that?
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 08:26pm PT
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Pat
Maybe you can get special power from Chris Mac to delete anything you don't like only in a thread you started.
No one else here will have this special power, only you Pat.
You will be the "God" in your thread.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2007 - 04:57am PT
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Sheesh. I didn't say I wanted to be a God. I just like to read some of these threads, as though they were fine art I am looking at in a museum, until the mad imps come along and start projectile vomiting all over things. The inclination is to clean that stuff away. I see I'm out-voted clearly, so I hereby drop my inquiry. Thanksferthefeedback.
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TwistedCrank
climber
a luxury Malibu rehabilitation treatment facility
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Jul 13, 2007 - 10:20am PT
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How can a conversation - no matter how focused and noise-free - be treated like fine art? You lost me on that one.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 13, 2007 - 11:02am PT
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If somebody wanted to create some "fine art" threads as a public service, perhaps they could collect posts that contributed history, insight, or something significant and compile them without the choss.
Maybe Chris Mac would be interested in hosting an archive of such material. I bet Ken Yager (Chicken Skinner) would love it for his climbing museum.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 13, 2007 - 11:16am PT
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Pat
All of us here have been victims of what you are describing.
People here are intelligent enough to filter out idiot posts that only try to damage a thread. If a thread is very good and it happens, the conscientious whole will drive the worm out.
So there should be no real worries.
Just as working hard some dirt will accumulate and is natural.
Please try to understand, luminaries such as yourself generally will get extra protection from the conscientious whole.
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TwistedCrank
climber
a luxury Malibu rehabilitation treatment facility
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Jul 13, 2007 - 11:21am PT
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There are certainly some classics in here and I for one enjoy the best of the Taco. It might not be fine art - performance art perhaps?
The signal-to-noise ratio is horrendous. Wading through the spew to find the nuggets is part of the fun. In a sick and pathetic kind of way.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jul 13, 2007 - 01:55pm PT
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As you can see Pat, this is an old topic. Chris doesn't want to deal with deciding who is posting appropriately and 'we' all have agreed to monitor ourselves as best we could because none of us can figure out a method that works better than peer pressure. Just like we did 40 years ago in Camp 4.
The key word in the last sentence is 'peer.' The reason ST works is that everyone agrees that everyone can be themselves: no autographs, no sucking up, no gratuitous slams, and no pulling rank. And you need to be funny or at least recognize, most of the time, when someone else is trying to be funny. This is what draws everyone to ST. My own view is that this is the only way that it can work. Everyone gets to be themselves, we all seem to learn each others charms, and almost everyone has a tremendous amount of goodwill. We all have a huge amount in common as climbers.
Some folks, climbers that we both know, don't like the hurley burley and choose not to participate. It is both our loss and theirs. And it risks smacking of a superior attitude, which all the oldsters know cannot be sustained in real life, much less in climbing. And it certainly cannot be sustained with so many great climbers from the past 50 years participating to one degree or another as ST campers.
I haven’t been following along closely, so I tried to see what sort of posts got under your skin. Maybe they were deleted, because I didn't see anything that I would say is out of the ordinary or even inappropriate. What I did notice is that quite a few folks gave you celebrity treatment and tried to smooth any feathers that were ruffled. This might not be a good sign given the peer idea and your own stated desire to be treated like everyone else. Rolling with the banter and criticism is part of the deal. I also saw that Chris Synder got all riled up at some of your posts and lambasted you. But I think the message here is not to censure Chris (or others) or view it as downside. Chris’ opinions are as valid as anyone else’s--he’s just more outspoken than most. And he follows the ‘peers’ rule.
Not everything always works, but on balance it is a gift, as you have discovered—over 300 posts. It has been referred to as a virtual campfire, but unlike real life where we break up into little groups of like minded folks and close friends, here we are all at the same fire. It requires a new set of skills to maneuver around.
Best, Roger
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 13, 2007 - 02:40pm PT
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You know what they say about one man's garbage.
I support the priviledge of someone who does not share your way with words to respond to a windy, self-absorbed essay with a quip about their genitals.
There's a social balance in that interaction, how ever much you may find that it sullies your erudite musings, that keeps the forum lively and from turning into a textbook or total idiocy.
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scuffy b
climber
Bates Creek
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Jul 13, 2007 - 02:50pm PT
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Melissa, check your email.
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TwistedCrank
climber
a luxury Malibu rehabilitation treatment facility
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Jul 13, 2007 - 03:01pm PT
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I support the priviledge of someone who does not share your way with words to respond to a windy, self-absorbed essay with a quip about their genitals.
It's a priviledge? Nope. It's not even a right.
Nay!
It's a responsibility.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Jul 13, 2007 - 03:17pm PT
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erudite musings, no less?
edit-
far better a quip than a jpeg, IMHO
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
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Roger, I would not have censured Chris Snyder. He wasn't what I was talking about. Chris and I have shared some good thoughts. I have been finding him to be a good man. I really don't care if someone disagrees with me, or if someone thinks my posts are long-winded and worthelessly unfunny, or that I am pompous and erudite. Those aren't opinions with which I quarrel, for the most part. I might not agree, but I wouldn't cut them out. I'm talking only about the mindless junk that comes from people who aren't climbers, who have nothing whatsoever to contribute other than green vomit. I used the "fine art" analogy to make a point. Indeed a few people have written things very artfully, and I cherish what some people have said. I don't like people vomiting over or even nearby those words. But maybe I do take it all too seriously. I like the humorous posts that undercut or lampoon my "windy and self-absorbed" posts. Anyway, as I said above, I simply wanted to inquire as to whether anything could be done about the intruders. I think if you were at a campfire, with good friends, enjoying great conversation, laughter, reflection, even a little inanity, and if someone came along who was threatening or purely vile and was only there to disrupt the spirit, you might run him off. Or you might get up and leave. I guess there is no way to run anyone off here, so I will try to harden my shell.
slow boring turtle
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 14, 2007 - 01:31pm PT
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Pat, I think a bit of shell-hardening is probably a good thing. Life, as well as the internet, presents us with a certain amount of "green vomit" that is best ignored, even though this sometimes requires an effort. I've always thought of it as road rage on the information highway. There's nothing to be gained (and alot, perhaps, to be lost) by engaging with deeply angry people and those who cheer them on, people who seem to derive a short-lived pleasure from offensive acts and speech. Their bile eats away at them, but it doesn't have to eat away at us unless we give our permission.
But I think there is another aspect to the issue you raise, namely the concept of ownership of a thread. I think starting a thread is like blowing on a dandelion; the seedlets are wafted this way and that by breezes, some gentle, some strong. Sometimes they all head in the direction of your initial puff, sometimes a strong current carries them all another way, and sometimes they just scatter in an every-expanding formless cloud. Maybe you started it, but once initiated, the process has a life governed by forces that you do not, and, in my view, have no right to, control.
So relax and watch the seedlets float on the zephyrs, marvel at the perverse yet wonderful inclination of the human spirit to wander and find its own meanings, including those you never intended and do not support. If you don't care for the drift, or if you find meaning drowned by the the road-ragers, wash your hands of the whole mess and, as the instructor in my last defensive drive class said, "FIDO: fuhgettaboudit drive on."
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2007 - 02:06pm PT
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Thanks Rich for that. It helps a lot. Such calm wisdom and beauty of thought. I'm still a bit new to this forum stuff and have never been on one prior to SuperTopo, so I probably raise issues that have already been discussed again and again. I must come across as a real novice. I think your view is the right one and the most sensible, and though I am a bit more fragile for some unknown reason than some of these harder men, I think I can learn the process, or if not float away somewhere else. When I think about it, the climbing world itself has always been a mixed bag: people of great warmth and generosity, people competitive and sometimes ruthless, people unforgiving, people very small and vile, gross liars and false brethren in various forms and a host of others that don't seem to belong there at all but have an opinion (and an "expertise") about everything. Why should I ever have expected a climbing forum to be different, really, than the real world?! It makes it worthwhile, though, to be in touch with you and Doug and John S. and John B. and Kevin and Jeff and Tom H. and Bob D'A. and so many others I'm reconnecting with or getting to know and deeply appreciate.
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