Discussion Topic |
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 12, 2007 - 03:31pm PT
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I really think a lot of good happens on SuperTopo, some sharing of ideas, some discussion, even interesting debate, and re-connecting of old friends... What I hate is how easily the idiots without a life enter in, to create their little show, to make their snide remarks, and who have little if anything to do with the world of climbing being discussed. What I hate is how quickly a good thread will degenerate into less than petty arguments between idiots, or between one or more idiots and some better person who unfortunately gets sucked in. Would it be possible to give power to the person who initiates the thread to delete any unimportant or mischievous or troll-esque or simply stupid entry that is made? The person starting the thread can watch over his or her own thread and keep it alive, perhaps, by deleting the garbage, by cleaning up, so to speak, now and then, or daily. Or would that simply make the idiots mad? And would they then flood the thread with ten times more garbage? Is there any way to "discharge" certain individuals for their trolling? I mean, ban them from the cite for repeated annoyance? I suppose this has all been thought of before, and would any such things work?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 12, 2007 - 03:46pm PT
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I hear where you are coming from Pat but perhaps that is a bit too much like censorship. I think that most of us just filter out the BS that is posted.
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knieveltech
Social climber
Raleigh NC
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Jul 12, 2007 - 03:49pm PT
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Generally speaking the only way to control the level of nonsense in an online venue is to control who has access to said venue. A classic example would be alt.sysadmin.recovery on Usenet, which used (uses?) an undocumented technical riddle that has to be unraveled before a post is accepted by any given user. I empathize with your frustration, however this is the classic double-edged sword that comes with having a forum open to the public, all parties are able to post their uncensored opinions, unfortunately, all parties may not be qualified to have opinions on any given topic, and there is always that element that derives amusement from pissing other people off.
Be well.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 03:49pm PT
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Nice call Pat! I'd be tatally down wid it. Censorship? People can start their own threads for trash and we can ignore it if we chose.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jul 12, 2007 - 03:52pm PT
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People have been banned by the admins, known as "whack a mole", I think Dingus deserves credit for that term.
I'd rather not have thread starters able to delete posts/threads, that's censorship. But it may be nice if each user had the capability to ignore posts from the users they select. known as killfile.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 12, 2007 - 03:53pm PT
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Think for a moment about the implications of what you're proposing. The ability to censor out unwanted feedback is a deficit we find in mainstream media, even climbing media.
As a community, around a digital campfire, just as around a regular campfire, we tolerate some weird ones and off beat note. If they get too annoying, we drive em away. If they just like harrassing us, the management has shown they'll eject the worst cases.
The best advice for all of us (maybe I should take it more myself although I'd say Lois isn't 'exactly' a troll) is
Don't Feed the TRolls! React and post to what you're interested in and let the rest go
Peace
Karl
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 12, 2007 - 03:57pm PT
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The original poster can delete the thread...often considered bad form.
My advice, roll with it (can be a challenge).....if you really like something, bookmark or do the .tar Tar (save to disk)
No mods is best mods...it's the majik & the unguent
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 12, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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Oli, being the "editor" of your own threads is truly a hip idea. Kinda like being the editor of a wiki that you maintain.
Seeing good threads degenerate into name-calling nonsense is frustrating, for sure. I wonder how much 'censoreship' we'd see if we did have some control over our own threads. It'd be particularly interesting to see how the political threads would evolve.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 12, 2007 - 04:20pm PT
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Don't feed the Trolls is my MO.
Just like any unruly wildlife, you don't want to engage it really.
Water off a duck's back.
And when the field has gone truly fallow, yes, the wack-a-mole:
A nice garden tool to keep sharp and use very sparingly.
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Jul 12, 2007 - 04:25pm PT
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Are you, or have you ever been, a member of the idiot party? Jenny McCarthy
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 12, 2007 - 04:29pm PT
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"Don't feed the Trolls", That's so funny and all so appropriate. I agree with Karl that allowing people to delete unwanted posts from their thread is not a good idea. It would cheapen the Taco Stand.
Pat, the name-calling and slander sucks, but SuperTaco is usually pretty good at taking care of Trolls and a-holes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 12, 2007 - 04:36pm PT
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There is a webmaster??????????????
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TwistedCrank
climber
a luxury Malibu rehabilitation treatment facility
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Jul 12, 2007 - 04:39pm PT
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SuperTaco is one of the best examples of self-organizing chaos on the Internet I've seen. The typical troll here doesn't last long. And the really good trolls are world class - witness the "Rap bolting the Bacher-Yerian" and the "Patagonia fires all its rock climbing ambassadors" threads. It's a campfire complete with the riffraff stumbling back from the woods making too much noise and interupting the convo after sucking down a few too many.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 12, 2007 - 04:42pm PT
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For the state-of-the-art in a community site and features, check out digg.com.
Think supertopo.com 2.0. Many of the features at Digg wouldn't be that hard to implement here, and they would solve some of the problems that afflict the Taco. Overall, though, this site rocks, and the simplicity is part of it's charm.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 12, 2007 - 04:58pm PT
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This forum is actually much kinder and gentler than most, with less idiocy than might be expected given that folks feel so strongly about the subject. I know there are sometimes trolls and stupid comments but it's easy to let your eyes roll over them. I think it's better to keep the free-wheeling nature going, as opposed to allowing censorship. Sometimes trolls are funny.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 12, 2007 - 05:03pm PT
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I like Oli's suggestion.
That way, if one has the FA on a thread, they can decide whether it gets retroed or unwanted stuff gets chopped.
I love it. Let's try to own more!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 12, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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i like your analogy caughtinside...sort of like the first electrons in that space so they are yours.
OTOH, karl always shows his voice of reason and that is as it should be.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 05:44pm PT
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If we are going to use caughtinside's analogy of a thread being like a first ascent and the FAers get to descide how it should be done, then we lose the free wheeling attitude here. If a thread is like a new line, then Censorship is like chipping holds to get where you want to go.
Sometimes you run into manky rock ( pure bullshit ) and you deal with that. Sometimes you run into blank face ( worthless posts ) and you work your way around that. You don't chip holds ( censor others ) to get the line ( thread ) that you want. You take what is given and do the best that you can with it.
If the original line ( thread ) is good, then it will go. Censorship is just grid bolted sport climbing. Making threads safe for everyone.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 12, 2007 - 05:49pm PT
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If you need that much control, you can save to disc, kill, edit and repost. It's all (more or less, depending on timing) still available beyond the o-post.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2007 - 06:15pm PT
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I wouldn't be talking about removing anyone's comments that had anything honestly to do with the subject. For example, if someone said I was totally wrong, on a certain topic, for this or that reason, I can live with that. But if someone chimes in some kind of mindless profanity or something utterly unrelated, or stupid, some banal moan about their genitalia, it's just cleanup to get those off. Not censorship. I don't want to shut anyone up or down, I just want to keep the good threads going. They too often get taken over completely by utter garbage absolutely unrelated to the subject. But I'm hearing everything you all have to say, and contemplating... Would driving certain people away who can't stomach the garbage be a form of censorship?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 12, 2007 - 06:22pm PT
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in a "take your ball and go home" manner, I guess it could be construed as "self" censorship.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 12, 2007 - 06:36pm PT
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this, from a thread killer of so recent time that there is still virtual blood dripping from his keyboard. hehe
Good point, though
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 12, 2007 - 08:17pm PT
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"I woldn't be talking about removing anyone's comments that had anything honestly to do with the subject."
If everyone were like you, there wouldn't be a problem.
The post deleting power would go to all thread-starters and power that can be used can be mis-used. Who'se going to police that?
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 12, 2007 - 08:26pm PT
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Pat
Maybe you can get special power from Chris Mac to delete anything you don't like only in a thread you started.
No one else here will have this special power, only you Pat.
You will be the "God" in your thread.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2007 - 04:57am PT
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Sheesh. I didn't say I wanted to be a God. I just like to read some of these threads, as though they were fine art I am looking at in a museum, until the mad imps come along and start projectile vomiting all over things. The inclination is to clean that stuff away. I see I'm out-voted clearly, so I hereby drop my inquiry. Thanksferthefeedback.
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TwistedCrank
climber
a luxury Malibu rehabilitation treatment facility
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Jul 13, 2007 - 10:20am PT
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How can a conversation - no matter how focused and noise-free - be treated like fine art? You lost me on that one.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 13, 2007 - 11:02am PT
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If somebody wanted to create some "fine art" threads as a public service, perhaps they could collect posts that contributed history, insight, or something significant and compile them without the choss.
Maybe Chris Mac would be interested in hosting an archive of such material. I bet Ken Yager (Chicken Skinner) would love it for his climbing museum.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 13, 2007 - 11:16am PT
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Pat
All of us here have been victims of what you are describing.
People here are intelligent enough to filter out idiot posts that only try to damage a thread. If a thread is very good and it happens, the conscientious whole will drive the worm out.
So there should be no real worries.
Just as working hard some dirt will accumulate and is natural.
Please try to understand, luminaries such as yourself generally will get extra protection from the conscientious whole.
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TwistedCrank
climber
a luxury Malibu rehabilitation treatment facility
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Jul 13, 2007 - 11:21am PT
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There are certainly some classics in here and I for one enjoy the best of the Taco. It might not be fine art - performance art perhaps?
The signal-to-noise ratio is horrendous. Wading through the spew to find the nuggets is part of the fun. In a sick and pathetic kind of way.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jul 13, 2007 - 01:55pm PT
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As you can see Pat, this is an old topic. Chris doesn't want to deal with deciding who is posting appropriately and 'we' all have agreed to monitor ourselves as best we could because none of us can figure out a method that works better than peer pressure. Just like we did 40 years ago in Camp 4.
The key word in the last sentence is 'peer.' The reason ST works is that everyone agrees that everyone can be themselves: no autographs, no sucking up, no gratuitous slams, and no pulling rank. And you need to be funny or at least recognize, most of the time, when someone else is trying to be funny. This is what draws everyone to ST. My own view is that this is the only way that it can work. Everyone gets to be themselves, we all seem to learn each others charms, and almost everyone has a tremendous amount of goodwill. We all have a huge amount in common as climbers.
Some folks, climbers that we both know, don't like the hurley burley and choose not to participate. It is both our loss and theirs. And it risks smacking of a superior attitude, which all the oldsters know cannot be sustained in real life, much less in climbing. And it certainly cannot be sustained with so many great climbers from the past 50 years participating to one degree or another as ST campers.
I haven’t been following along closely, so I tried to see what sort of posts got under your skin. Maybe they were deleted, because I didn't see anything that I would say is out of the ordinary or even inappropriate. What I did notice is that quite a few folks gave you celebrity treatment and tried to smooth any feathers that were ruffled. This might not be a good sign given the peer idea and your own stated desire to be treated like everyone else. Rolling with the banter and criticism is part of the deal. I also saw that Chris Synder got all riled up at some of your posts and lambasted you. But I think the message here is not to censure Chris (or others) or view it as downside. Chris’ opinions are as valid as anyone else’s--he’s just more outspoken than most. And he follows the ‘peers’ rule.
Not everything always works, but on balance it is a gift, as you have discovered—over 300 posts. It has been referred to as a virtual campfire, but unlike real life where we break up into little groups of like minded folks and close friends, here we are all at the same fire. It requires a new set of skills to maneuver around.
Best, Roger
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 13, 2007 - 02:40pm PT
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You know what they say about one man's garbage.
I support the priviledge of someone who does not share your way with words to respond to a windy, self-absorbed essay with a quip about their genitals.
There's a social balance in that interaction, how ever much you may find that it sullies your erudite musings, that keeps the forum lively and from turning into a textbook or total idiocy.
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scuffy b
climber
Bates Creek
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Jul 13, 2007 - 02:50pm PT
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Melissa, check your email.
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TwistedCrank
climber
a luxury Malibu rehabilitation treatment facility
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Jul 13, 2007 - 03:01pm PT
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I support the priviledge of someone who does not share your way with words to respond to a windy, self-absorbed essay with a quip about their genitals.
It's a priviledge? Nope. It's not even a right.
Nay!
It's a responsibility.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Jul 13, 2007 - 03:17pm PT
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erudite musings, no less?
edit-
far better a quip than a jpeg, IMHO
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
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Roger, I would not have censured Chris Snyder. He wasn't what I was talking about. Chris and I have shared some good thoughts. I have been finding him to be a good man. I really don't care if someone disagrees with me, or if someone thinks my posts are long-winded and worthelessly unfunny, or that I am pompous and erudite. Those aren't opinions with which I quarrel, for the most part. I might not agree, but I wouldn't cut them out. I'm talking only about the mindless junk that comes from people who aren't climbers, who have nothing whatsoever to contribute other than green vomit. I used the "fine art" analogy to make a point. Indeed a few people have written things very artfully, and I cherish what some people have said. I don't like people vomiting over or even nearby those words. But maybe I do take it all too seriously. I like the humorous posts that undercut or lampoon my "windy and self-absorbed" posts. Anyway, as I said above, I simply wanted to inquire as to whether anything could be done about the intruders. I think if you were at a campfire, with good friends, enjoying great conversation, laughter, reflection, even a little inanity, and if someone came along who was threatening or purely vile and was only there to disrupt the spirit, you might run him off. Or you might get up and leave. I guess there is no way to run anyone off here, so I will try to harden my shell.
slow boring turtle
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 14, 2007 - 01:31pm PT
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Pat, I think a bit of shell-hardening is probably a good thing. Life, as well as the internet, presents us with a certain amount of "green vomit" that is best ignored, even though this sometimes requires an effort. I've always thought of it as road rage on the information highway. There's nothing to be gained (and alot, perhaps, to be lost) by engaging with deeply angry people and those who cheer them on, people who seem to derive a short-lived pleasure from offensive acts and speech. Their bile eats away at them, but it doesn't have to eat away at us unless we give our permission.
But I think there is another aspect to the issue you raise, namely the concept of ownership of a thread. I think starting a thread is like blowing on a dandelion; the seedlets are wafted this way and that by breezes, some gentle, some strong. Sometimes they all head in the direction of your initial puff, sometimes a strong current carries them all another way, and sometimes they just scatter in an every-expanding formless cloud. Maybe you started it, but once initiated, the process has a life governed by forces that you do not, and, in my view, have no right to, control.
So relax and watch the seedlets float on the zephyrs, marvel at the perverse yet wonderful inclination of the human spirit to wander and find its own meanings, including those you never intended and do not support. If you don't care for the drift, or if you find meaning drowned by the the road-ragers, wash your hands of the whole mess and, as the instructor in my last defensive drive class said, "FIDO: fuhgettaboudit drive on."
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2007 - 02:06pm PT
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Thanks Rich for that. It helps a lot. Such calm wisdom and beauty of thought. I'm still a bit new to this forum stuff and have never been on one prior to SuperTopo, so I probably raise issues that have already been discussed again and again. I must come across as a real novice. I think your view is the right one and the most sensible, and though I am a bit more fragile for some unknown reason than some of these harder men, I think I can learn the process, or if not float away somewhere else. When I think about it, the climbing world itself has always been a mixed bag: people of great warmth and generosity, people competitive and sometimes ruthless, people unforgiving, people very small and vile, gross liars and false brethren in various forms and a host of others that don't seem to belong there at all but have an opinion (and an "expertise") about everything. Why should I ever have expected a climbing forum to be different, really, than the real world?! It makes it worthwhile, though, to be in touch with you and Doug and John S. and John B. and Kevin and Jeff and Tom H. and Bob D'A. and so many others I'm reconnecting with or getting to know and deeply appreciate.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2007 - 02:00am PT
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I've been looking around at threads, and the last 8 or 10 I've gone to have been utterly ruined by the ants coming in with their little minds. I'm hard-shelled enough, but it keeps me from wanting to post anymore on those threads, which started out good.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 17, 2007 - 02:13am PT
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I've been reading, and sometimes contributing (?) to SuperTopo for a bit more than a year. It's a bit of a rough and ready place at times, but for all that there's still lots of interesting and useful and even poetic things to read. There's certainly some dross, but there is a certain community ethos when it comes to truly out of line behaviour. Most of those who have a tendency to post non-climbing things know that they'll get a short hard tug if they seriously misbehave. A few learn the hard way, naturally.
Sometimes it can be a bit disheartening, when the bad posts start to drive out the good ones. (An adaptation of Gresham's law.) But it usually comes around.
When the silly try to highjack a thread, or start flaming, I've found that sweet reason isn't a bad response.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Jul 17, 2007 - 02:18am PT
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pat-
welcome to the reality that is the ST forum (which i affectionately call 'stupidtopo'), where no good thread can last.
in a way it's just like climbing, once you are familiar w/ the terrain, you are more adept at spotting the good holds from below, and avoiding the choss that sometomes clutters even a good line.
my prediction: a few short years from now, your newly hardened shell will have a green hue (some might say that it looks like jade), and you too will become dismissive or impatient w/ such offenders as those you describe.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 17, 2007 - 09:54am PT
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After all the years of furiously doing whatever, it really is interesting to hear what people have to say. You begin to appreciate why the times were so creative. It was sometimes messy then and as people create things here, perhaps we should actually hope for more of that turmoil.
The exchanges of " Did". "Didn't". "Did." don't seem to lead anywhere, I agree. In time we may learn not to do that.
On the other hand after I posted some bunk Peter Haan let me have it. After just one more go-round we each very clearly appreciated the other's concerns. More clearly than we would have had I not said what I did. Our path to greater understanding often goes we know not where. Peter was a powerhouse back then and he has not lost so much as one step off his pace.
Decades from now when Chris is wondering whether we actually managed to build something on ST, I would hope he goes back and reads some of these threads. Awesome.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Jul 17, 2007 - 09:13pm PT
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Censorship can be an oppressive tool and could drive people away from a serious forum discussion. But obnoxius and silly posts, especially those made with disruptive intention, serve to reduce a discussion to the banal and inane. Possibly, the deletion of certain posts by a conscientious moderator could be justified if such posts are obviously against the grain of a particular thread.
The obvious problems; getting individuals to volunteer as moderators and keeping them involved, and establishing some venue of concrete principles for defining when posts are outside the relevance range of any particular thread.
Given the wide variety of thread content, a particular post could be permissible on some threads but not on others. Interests vary and some individuals want fun threads while others may seek technical threads, or political, religious or historical threads. The flaming threads will go on, even though the flamers tend to go into intervals of flaming fatigue.
Would most ST-ers find censorship justifiable on threads of serious discussion when any particular post is outside the content and range of the thread and has an obvious disruptive or flippant tone? I doubt if that would be accepted, here, but when the chaos becomes overwhelming, members whom you want here, will shrug their shoulders and leave.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 17, 2007 - 09:30pm PT
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some people are more sincere and interested in excellence than the masses - Oli I hear ya and you got my vote but it won't change. You can go the distance, dig deep and write like a god - but they will still sh*t on you, here on the ST. Oli, I hear you completely.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2007 - 11:26pm PT
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I really appreciate the replies. They keep me thinking and wondering. I appreciate, John, that people can come to blows and then work things through. That's a good process. But then you and Haan are a little more rational than some who are the offenders here. No one has a problem with debate or different points of view. And I have no interest in "censorship," as I have said before. I would never delete someone's post who simply disagrees with everything I say. But I don't think it's censorship to deny pure inanity. One could draw a few parallels perhaps. We all enjoy freedom of speech, but would it be a violation of that right to gag (or drag away, i.e. remove) someone in some kind of meeting (congress, church, business, whatever...) who stands up suddenly screaming profanities that are tied to no purpose or end and are apparently not about to stop on their own? It's one thing for a certain individual to intrude with an offensive or pointless remark. We see they're not happy. Point taken. It's another for him or her to keep going at it, irrationally, leading the topic entirely away, wasting everyone's time utterly. But people will question who I am to make that call. I couldn't give the answer. That's why I suggest we give the author of the thread that call, although I'm not insisting on anything, just thinking aloud (so to speak).
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 17, 2007 - 11:30pm PT
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one point is that it takes time and effort to create a sincere and constructive thread - one the community here can be involved in and appreciates.
but the ant vomit sure takes away that motivation.
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Ricardo Carlos
Trad climber
Off center, CO.
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Jul 17, 2007 - 11:40pm PT
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(it's just cleanup to get those off. Not censorship)
Oli
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck well?
Oli
please keep writing and let the moles pound sand!
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 17, 2007 - 11:42pm PT
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I used to be an avid user of a Projectionist forum. There were a couple of key guidelines, however. The biggest difference I saw in this forum vs most others is the amount of respect people gave eachother and how well / quickly people got to know other users.
These may seem strict, but at the time to me was common sense. You had to have your picture, used as an avatar, and you had to use your real first and last name. You knew who you were talking to, people thought twice about saying something offensive, and most importantly is you would weed out anyone looking to stir the leaves. There is always the worry that someone would make a john doe, it sure wouldnt be hard, but if it didn't have a small amount of anonymity, it wouldnt be the internet :D!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 17, 2007 - 11:51pm PT
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RE:
"Oli
please keep writing and let the moles pound sand!"
in this wish we are unanimous - but I know from experience it's not easy to be creative and feel like sharing w/ a bad taste in your mouth.
that we might not see anymore of "the best of Oli" bugs me, and should bug others, too.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2007 - 12:11am PT
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Thank you Ray and others. You are kind and the very type of people that draw me to this forum.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 18, 2007 - 12:16am PT
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Ants, moles and worms.
And then there's "Rascals" like me, Hee Hee Hee
To make us all think in all different directions :-)
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 18, 2007 - 12:36am PT
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"but when the chaos becomes overwhelming, members whom you want here, will shrug their shoulders and leave."
AMEN
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Jul 18, 2007 - 01:21am PT
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I too agree that it is frustrating when comments are posted which are totally unrelated and ruin the flow of a good thread. But I would not change the structure here in any way. I really appreciate how all threads here are mixed together. On other sites, they are divided up by topic category. But with this method, I end up reading lots of interesting stuff which I would never have even looked at before.
I enjoy seeing when one of those trolls slowly comes around and starts to talk about climbing. Our most infamous recent example really has some good stuff to say when he actually comments on climbing.
But as refreshing as it sounds, I really think that being able to delete individual posts would ultimately be a very bad thing for us and lead in a negative direction.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Jul 18, 2007 - 05:13am PT
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This is a great thread and the kind of discussion that keeps me reading supertopo. Even though this has been discussed and hashed out before, it is still a challange. How do we deal with Choss? How do we deal with people who not only disagree, but are rude and repetitive and noisy? I think it is a fascinating problem. It is also a huge problem in society in general is it not? Especially in a somewhat free society.
Sometimes I listen to the Board of supervisors meetings on the radio here in Fresno as it is on a station that I listen to a lot. There are certain individuals that speak, but can't really express themselves, but want to speak and have the right to talk for a few minutes before the board. People present grievances and concerns at times so ineffectually and confusedly that it makes no sense and I sympathize with the board members having to listen politely to it.
We are in a similar position here. We are helpless to prevent anyone from posting any drivel they feel like, so we have to smile politely and then ignore it. Or we can try to insult them or outpost them, or we can watch the various strategies that others try and see the results.
Reminds me of being in Camp 4 and listening to some British guy at the next campsite singing wild ribald and totally rude songs. Somewhere else, that guy gets kicked out, and if he goes too late there are those who want him kicked out of there also. What do you do about the drunken partyers who leave a mess all over the place? Call in the rangers? Figure out how to deal with them ourselves?
Thanks, Oli for bringing up the question this time around and stimulating such interesting posts.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 18, 2007 - 09:41am PT
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Giveing the OP censorship control is insane. You can sugarcoat or spin it all you want but what you are asking for is complete censorship control over your own threads. You say you won't abuse this power but that is unlikly. Certainly you will be tempted to delete some as#@&%e who you don't agree with or just personaly dislike. Even if you manage to to be responsible with this power the next guy will most certainly abuse it. Remember some of the control freaks that were monitors on the old RC.com? Oli, Yours is the logic that dominates the Bush administration. We need these powers because we have to protect you. We won't abuse these powers because we are the good guys..............
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jul 18, 2007 - 09:50am PT
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The good that is Supertopo so far outshines the negative aspects. Like water from an artesian well is pure, crisp and is floavored with the taste of local minerals, and treated water is soft, unnatural and stinks a little but at least it always is the same.....That's the difference between continuing to let ST remain organic and processing the product.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 18, 2007 - 11:26am PT
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yes, Oli - we want you to walk through the knee deep garbage with the rest of us and pretend it's not there. Don't be creative Oli, don't strive for excellence - accept the status quo and join us in our world of make believe.
And, whatever you do - absolutely don't pose a difficult question for group brainstorming because, no doubt, the group will refer to it's earlier training and see only one thing...
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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Jul 18, 2007 - 12:33pm PT
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Here's an idea: show us a moderated Forum that is better than this one.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2007 - 12:40pm PT
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Thanks, Tradman, for comparing me to Bush. I will now go shoot myself in the head.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 18, 2007 - 01:36pm PT
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There have been some good posts here!
In most cases, it takes two to tango. My strategy: Choose your battles. When someone makes a statement that raises your ire, you may have a perfectly sound retort which you are just itching to get out, but you might be stepping into someone’s deep seated issue that goes way deeper than the surface comment. Basic button pushing then ensues. We might think we are responding on the level, but we’ve aroused angst, not inquiry, and off the thread goes into a protracted, murky, and ultimately meaningless argument.
I let most stuff ride and if something gets me a little, I wait and see if I am reading something into the person’s comment which is not there (basic projection) and I also decide whether or not the person's comment is really worth engaging; after all, I likely have very little idea what they’ve been through and what those background experiences are doing to inform their edgy post. It may also be that their opinion is right for them, unsettling to me in the moment and that’s just where it is, so I let it ride. Further comment may stir the pot in an unproductive way. If a valid conflict seems to need to ensue, then I say let fly, try to investigate it with due regard for the “opponent” and see what comes of it. All easy for me to say: I post climbing pictures and silly stories and that rarely elicits a challenge from argumentative individuals. I mostly just watch the arguments and try to glean something to inform my understanding of the nature of conflict.
As has been said very well by others up thread, this is a public forum and that means we share a full value, frontier style dynamic with plenty of unsettling static (such is the human prospect): but in the end it is a pretty good training ground for self actualization and regard of others. Partly this is owing to the free for all nature of the construct. Conflict can be good. Yes, it can range from petty bickering to productive inquiry. I believe a self governed society, albeit idealistic and unlikely to materialize any time soon, is the better society. This forum is an opportunity for us all to practice self governance and the fall out is pretty benign. External controls relieve us of the opportunity to practice internal regard and understanding of self and others, just as pre-bolted climbs can relieve us of the freedom to engage the opportunity to manage natural risk.
As for the anonymity: I had a completely opposite read on the function of anonymity. When I started out on this forum, I sensed that I wanted to be a long time contributor, I was not well known in a reputation sense, I had a fake name, so I thought people would only know me by my online actions and to build a sustainable relationship with others I decided those actions needed to be fairly well behaved, clearly understood and productive, so the anonymity prompted me to actively compose my contributions such that I could present myself in a beneficial way and be received in kind.
Happy Trails,
Roy
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L
climber
Third star to the left of Ursa Major
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Jul 18, 2007 - 06:57pm PT
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Tarbaby...you are priceless!
Your words are a joy to read,
your TRs are awesome,
and your attitude is something
I'm trying hard to emulate.
Everything about you shines like a full moon on a calm ocean.
(And I tried wearing a 10-gallon climbing once in your honoor...I almost died. Will have to leave that happy trait to you and you alone! :-))
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 18, 2007 - 07:07pm PT
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Dang Tar! you got your moments!
Thank you.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 18, 2007 - 11:47pm PT
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khanom aske; "So again, why not?"
Because we are climbers. Climbers deal with choss all the time in their climbing lives.
What? are you some sanitary fetish master? The rock must be perfectly clean? All your routes are perfect Direttissimas?
You see my friends this forum unbeknown is actually a long written route with many cruxes.
Some fall .........
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jul 19, 2007 - 12:01am PT
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"Thanks, Tradman, for comparing me to Bush. I will now go shoot myself in the head."
Laughing so hard I couldn't type for a while. I don't know you at all Pat, but I like you a lot! I enjoy your writing and wit very much, and hope you keep posting.
Michael Smith
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 12:27am PT
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" Ability to block posts from users of your choice "
I usually think is kinda uppity and smacks of denial. I wanna make sure I and everyone else sees the whole of our community and society, the homeless and the fat cats.
Tagging the content is a nice idea. I always support labeling OT posts with Ot or the content within.
But technology isn't being used heavily on this forum cause it's just an afterthought for the main business, selling guidebooks. Why should Chris spend money and go too far out of his way when this is already the greatest show on climbing?
Great post Tarbaby. Let's take the challenge of dealing with ourselves the way climbers always have. Whack a mole if somebody gets too bad.
peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 19, 2007 - 12:49am PT
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Good point khanom, I don't like choss either.
That does it, no more choss.
Everyone behave now .......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 01:26am PT
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"Because improving the forum ensures that it remains so and continues to support the real business both in terms of direct revenue from online ads and through secondary marketing of products"
Maybe so, maybe not. If it ain't that broke, fixing it could have unintended consequences.
Every change has unintended consequences. If we retrobolted the r rated slab climbs in Yosemite and TM, they would be far more usable for far more people, but that's not the only issue involved.
Example
Rockclimbing.com has FAR, FAR more users than supertopo and far more technology features in their forum. I posted the exact same thread in both forums at the exact same time. Look at the differences in quality of responses.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1625815
and
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=412041
Peace
karl
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 19, 2007 - 01:49am PT
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"Thanks, Tradman, for comparing me to Bush. I will now go shoot myself in the head."
Actually, little George would only attempt to shoot himself in the head. Following Dickie's example, he'd probably shoot someone else instead.
I kind of like the idea of the etiquette, if not the system, requiring that the original poster clearly state what the thread is about. That doesn't much allow for the beloved and hated thread drift, but might help a bit.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 02:19am PT
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I can't see the analogy, where cleaning up the ant vomit can be compared to retrobolting routes in Tuolumne. The latter would be highly offensive, if it means adding bolts where they didn't exist. It would be lowering the standard. I have been speaking about raising the standard, i.e. not censoring anyone's opinion or thoughts but rather simply doing away with those intrusions that have no other motivation than to create confusion or an ugly disturbance.
How about this as an analogy: I am speaking of wiping your car windows when the bugs become too many to see the road. Whole threads drive right off a cliff, for fear of wiping away the gore and splatter. But some posters of course seem to feel the splatter is part of the view and should remain, as something to prize. After all, there might be "unintended consequences" were we to turn on the windshield wiper fluid (or stop at a gas station) and clean things off. Indeed, we might actually see where we're going, and be able to continue on that path, actually see El Cap as we drive into the Valley...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 02:37am PT
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"I can't see the analogy, where cleaning up the ant vomit can be compared to retrobolting routes in Tuolumne. The latter would be highly offensive, if it means adding bolts where they didn't exist. It would be lowering the standard. I have been speaking about raising the standard, i.e. not censoring anyone's opinion or thoughts but rather simply doing away with those intrusions that have no other motivation than to create confusion or an ugly disturbance. "
Hi Pat
That was actually an analogy that applied to sub-conversation with Khanom regarding the use of technology to make the forum more useful. I stated it would have unintended consequences.
The problem with raising the standards is always that it depends on whose standards were talking about. Hangdogging and rap bolting raised the standards dramatically in some folks eyes, but probably not yours.
So having a really open dialog is critical to explore who we all are. If censorship surfaces too easily the wild ones and visionaries will shove off along with the choss. But those are the one who will shape the future of climbing, the next living histories.
Best get us all talking together here and tolerate the diversity and brashness of some young expressions and craziness. A family has all levels of maturity going on from teenagers to the elderly. Once the generation gap gets too great and the family members feel judged, then we stop learning from each other.
Peace
Karl
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
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What you, Karl, and Tarbuster, say is all good. I don't disagree with any of it. But I think I'm talking about something different. Not censorship. Not intolerance. I have no problem with differences of opinion or age or mentality, in the context of our being a family. I'm talking about windshield wiper fluid or a good cloth to wipe away the bugs that obscure the view (not only destroying the beauty of the journey but putting us in peril of losing the way or even driving altogether off a cliff). But I am content to have things remain as they are, if that's how it must be.
Maybe I should be more open, you know, ride a bike, no windshield, put myself right out there in the air, but then the bugs would splatter all over my eyeballs directly, I suppose. A friend of mine driving a motorcycle once had a large bumble bee fly into his mouth. It went in directly and stung him on the back of his throat (just a small aside).
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 03:56pm PT
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Wes, Rammit has a thread going - why don't you go play over there?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 19, 2007 - 04:10pm PT
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wes,
ignoring some of your posts is as difficult as ignoring that little poodle humping your leg. sometimes you just gots to kick it...
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
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Wes, I would but they won't vest me with such powers (go figure?).
Maybe ST can create a 'Kiddie Korner' for you and Rammit. We'll put LEB in charge to distract her from posting:
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
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No one has ever called for censorship. I guess the ants can't or don't read what has been said and want only their own little burst of empty-headed insipidness.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 04:41pm PT
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Whatever Wes.
Banned from Bouldering.com?
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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Jul 19, 2007 - 05:24pm PT
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comparing weschrist to ragmeat is like comparing me to Ament.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 19, 2007 - 05:38pm PT
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Censorship is here, whether you notice it or not. Notice that no one posts snuff films or links to porn sites. It is a respect issue, that is "censorship." If you wanted to walk up to a family of five at Disneyland and tell them intimately about your last bowel movement, ill be the last to take away your right to do that. Unfortunately relying on a thread of decency can't run true through a population of 6 billion.
You are legally allowed to turn Native Son into a bolt ladder. Your allowed to walk into conversations and try to impress people by putting people down, I am sure we all remember what Jr. High was like. However the days of "atomic wedgies" are over. If you ruin an el cap route, you will have 10 homeless climbers ripping your skin off. If you walk into a crowd of people and act like an idiot, well, you will get treated like an idiot. Its a great thing really, self control is the great equalizer. Unfortunately a lot of these guys can't punch you through your keyboard, so we have the conflict.
It begins and ends on the part of the troll, however. Without Prometheus there would be no fire, without the apple tree Adam and Eve would be a slightly less boring version of a 'I Love Lucy' rerun (they ARE naked, you know). So the power is in the hands of the ants, a name I learned this week, but I think an even better one would be the gusts of wind. Higher and higher they go, never sated with the hot air they blow against the mountains, until they get so high that they can no longer reach the ground.
Wes is honest enough to explain himself away, and seems like a cool enough guy. I just wouldn't want that much bad mojo tied to myself. Internet forum or not, wild bill sounds like he just might punch a stranger in the face ;D
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 19, 2007 - 07:23pm PT
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Words can be more powerful then physical action. In high school I was put in the hospital by 6 guys who were beating up a mentally retarded kid when I stepped in to try and stop it.
I would take that beating again rather then hear some of the things said to me by people I thought were my friends.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 19, 2007 - 08:05pm PT
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"As for others carrying their internet aggression into the physical world... truly pathetic"
I completely agree! However some people will do that, I can assure you. That is what I was talking about in my post. You can't expect everyone to react the way you want them! To some guys, what you say to them over cyberspace is no different than saying it over a phone or in an email. You don't have to 'understand' why some people do some things, just the same how people don't understand why sh!t talking on a forum can be fun.
If this doesn't make sense to you, meet me after school at the Arbies!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 19, 2007 - 08:13pm PT
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"sticks and stones can break your bones but words cause permanent damage"
-Eric Bogosian, Talk Radio
and, for Oli:
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
-William Butler Yeats
cheers everyone - good discussion
R.Dog
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 10:38pm PT
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"Controlling what other people can or can't post is not censorship? Interesting, go on...."
If you were having a nice dinner with friends, and one of the children stood up suddenly and started to look as though they were going to throw up all over the table, and started heaving, you'd try to point him/her away from the table or lead him/her off quickly to the bathroom. If you could help it, you wouldn't let the person throw up all over the table. Censorship, on the other hand, is to quiet those with whom you disagree, for example how the Bush administration edited the writings and findings of the various leading scientists who presented reports on global warming. To a man, they complained that their words had been cut and altered, to suit the administration point of view.
In any sort of publication worth its salt, the editors (as they are called) choose what they deem worthy to be in those pages. They're not going to publish insipid little ravings. Even the profanities that appear are not gratuitous. You could accuse those publications of censorship, in that they deny the mediocre thinkers, or even those less than mediocre, the vapid and jejune, those who have the slops, as I think Yeats may have called it... No this is not a publication per se, it is a forum, but even a forum could use a little windshield wiper work to clean off the bird poop.
If someone has something to say, let it fly. But vomit and bird poop are something else. They're not something to "say." If I can't cover your mouth or turn you away, I'm going to get the hell out of there.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 11:10pm PT
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Supertopo is not a publication.
Pull up some posts from 2002 or so and see what you think of the level of discourse.
Some of the people spewing that vomit and poop then were living legends too, and there were many folks who were grateful the chance to be shat upon from such a considerable height.
IMO, the content of the forum on the whole is better now than it was then because the people here have made it be so. On the other hand, it's also a bit stuffier and not as playful/heated as it was at times in the past. If there are too many rules and too many poobahs deciding who are the ants and what is ant vomit, Supertopo could just as easily go the way of rec.climbing (dead) or rockclimbing.com (n00bs trying to kill each other).
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 11:16pm PT
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Things that are posted seem to be, in a sense, published, made available to the public, i.e. I'm not trying to make any rules for anyone. I'm trying to talk about the merits or lack of merit, in letting the windshield completely cover over in bug juice. Your insistence on leaving everything bad and good would be no less a "rule," by your own definitions, it would seem. That's why I put the "inquiry" to the webmaster. I never thought I'd get so much "response."
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 19, 2007 - 11:32pm PT
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Here, the definition of "forum" does in fact get blurry since some actually take the time to compose articles, good ones.
Defining this forum as not a publication strikes me as being perhaps technically true but fairly rigid and closed ended and, if anything the internet is a rapidly evolving tool - that this forum can contain "live journalism", (deserving of respect) might be a better description.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Jul 19, 2007 - 11:59pm PT
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I for one miss the good ole days of ST, where flamefests outnumbered legitimate topics 10-1 and you could change your poster name with every post. Sh#t, I almost got Bobby D and Doc Kodos booted for a year. Instead, I did the time.
It's supposed to be fun, otherwise we might as well turn off the computer and get back to work.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:03am PT
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Ok, Pat.
We like to respond, that's why we're here!
Sure, we can wipe the windshield or remove the unruly, colicky child.
Here’s a round picture of the self governed societal model for our unregulated forum.
In the more controlled forum equipped with windshield wipers or a parental figure, the bugs are wiped or the child who is about to vomit on the table is physically removed. That is an external control. Yes it is most expedient and it works. But it is a one sided action. It is quiet now but we didn’t grow or learn from the event; yes, we are now free to engage in more “important” stuff in an unfettered environment, at least for a stretch of time.
In a completely un-moderated forum the onus of governance resides primarily within each and every individual and secondarily but more importantly: it resides within the functional dynamic of the relationships cultivated between these individuals.
The child who is about to vomit in this un-moderated forum, as Wes has aptly indicated, will in most cases only continue to vomit if there exists an audience, or even better, a retort for the vomit, which tends to raise more bile. People looking for a response, looking to rile the crowd rarely persist with their efforts if they are not getting a response, not getting fed or “paid” for their efforts. They want a fight and, heck, we give it to ‘em, so they keep feeding.
So, if we deny them through our restraint then we are choosing to withhold, we are self governing in a very conscious way. Likewise, by gently, almost invisibly prompting them to move away from unproductive behavior, the instigator of unrest, whether consciously or un-consciously, will likely tire of their unrewarded efforts and go somewhere else to play. So the result is they engage in a style of self governance also and remove themselves (…or not, oh well, utopia wasn’t built in a day: in fact it is never built, but the building of it is very instructive, is good work to engage in). Yes, perhaps on the part of the prankster it is a passive, not an active, thoughtful, really groovy Zen baby style of self governance but it is a result of a joint action, a relational action, which involves both sides and benefits both sides.
What I like about this approach, what I find artful about it, is that it exercises a flexible, two sided relational dynamic which proceeds organically. It accepts the risk of failure in a very real way because it may not work: because there exists, aside from the dim light of the “wackamole” no real safety net. Likewise, the gain from this approach feels wholesome, is more deeply felt, is genuinely won and perhaps more durable, because it is a product of mutual consent, a product of internal regulation engaged in either actively or passively by all involved.
This is a very simple dynamic, this disrupter/discipliner scenario. What becomes more challenging are the arguments born often of misunderstanding here on our forum, they too lead to rage, flames, a protracted sloppy hijacking of a nice thread. But that scenario also calls upon all involved to look more closely within, to work with more heart.
Jeepers, how perfectly messy-lovely.
-Tarbaby.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:03am PT
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I think Oli is starting to learn how to troll us.
This thread just keeps on truckin ......
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:06am PT
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Bingo.
I know, I mean I suspect, he talks to Lois offline, sumtimes...
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:08am PT
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Oli and I are getting laptops w/ IM software so we can Troll the sh*t out of this place!
Tar, dude - LMAO! man, way good.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:10am PT
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...Cuz Lois also moves to ramble so.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:17am PT
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I'm getting my material together for a new thread called
"Injury to the Webmaster"
it's gonna rock!
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:23am PT
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I was sitting in a restaurant at a table with about 8 others when someone did actually start drooling (small warning) then vomited all over the table. What did we do? We jumped out of the way, renamed our friend (Big Blow Joe), then laughed and laughed and laughed. Of course, everyone was hammered.
It was a funny moment, but it wouldn't be so funny if it happened every meal for sure.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:26am PT
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it's a cookie
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2007 - 01:55am PT
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Ok, Werner, you win. I have only answered those who keep telling me I am weak and cowardly and need to put up with the green vomit and who insist I must drive with a windshield full of bug juice, and get over myself, etc. But a last question, Melissa, since when did anyone have to "determine" who the ants were, or what an ant is? Either it's an ant or it isn't. I think even an ant might know it's an ant. But I'll shut up, rather than look like a troll. Nice way of censoring me. Insult me right out of there. You gotta dig it, all you anti-censor insects.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 02:02am PT
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Nothing wrong with "Trolling" as long as you do it right.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 20, 2007 - 02:25am PT
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I've been trolled?
Shoot: now I feel cheap, a little dirty even.
I'm going to bed now and get up and take another run at it tomorrow...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 20, 2007 - 02:35am PT
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Nice analysis Roy.
Personally, though it often has it's down side, I like being down here in the mosh pit with the puking babies.
"Out of chaos comes order."
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 20, 2007 - 11:48am PT
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OK.
I'm up and back at it.
Its hard work, but it beats work and somebody has to do it.
Where wuzz I...
So Oli,
In the end, this Forum has lots of maybe not so interesting stuff, dross, to wade through, whether it be thread content or the post topics overall. Yet, every time someone puts up a trip report (TR), or Oli, or Jello or anyone else with heart writes a passage, or someone new like Doug Robinson shows up, this place is renewed & elevated. Like salmon swimming upstream, the lily growing from murk, or the diver going for pearl, good things happen in fertile places and lots of decay and struggle is always evident, present, and somehow crucial to the whole living system. Vigilance is the call and it is rewarded.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:03pm PT
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Aye!
We eat lightning & crap thunder.
Raise a sail now and set forth into the bracing winds:
Tho salt stings the cheeks and storm churns the bowels, the black firmament is struck with guiding lights.
Yeah, sometimes we must wait for fog to clear,
Or be damned and burn through the murk with the torch of our hearts, cut it with sharp and able bones...
yahahahaha!!!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 20, 2007 - 02:29pm PT
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"But a last question, Melissa, since when did anyone have to "determine" who the ants were, or what an ant is? Either it's an ant or it isn't. I think even an ant might know it's an ant."
The truth is, Oli, I don't know who you consider an ant or what you consider ant vomit.
Clearly you and I value and expect different things from our Supertopo interactions. That's why neither or us should get to decide who is worth reading and who is not.
"But I'll shut up, rather than look like a troll. Nice way of censoring me. Insult me right out of there."
Choosing to back off a topic b/c others have verbally disagreed w/ you or questioned your motives is not censorship. Choosing to delete someone else's posts who is otherwise trying to be 'heard' is censorship. Can you really not see the difference?
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2007 - 03:07pm PT
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About as bad as bug juice all over the window are people who don't read or follow what you say and put words in your mouth or clearly reveal they aren't hearing a thing you say. I can't imagine why it's so difficult to understand my spirit of intent and how some should so absurdly misconstrue it. Apparently you haven't read above, where I have clearly said I have no interest in any kind of censorship. I've said it about fifty times. That means I have no desire to quiet or suppress or shut up anyone with whom I disagree or who disagrees with me. I am not that small. I am more than happy to engage in debate on most any reasonable subject, with almost any relatively rational person. But you keep saying I want to censor people, even though I keep saying that's not what I want to do. I don't mind at all if the forum "talks back." That's what it's supposed to do. Did you think I wanted only to speak by and to myself? But something has to meet even the most minimum requirement to be called "talk" or "discourse," and some things are nothing more than bug juice on the windshield. They get in the way, whether or not one has the ability to look past them. I was trying to hear what the options are for cleaning up the bug juice off the windshield. That's my metaphor for the green vomit or yellow innards that little vapid people spew apparently to get attention. So far, most of what I hear is simply that we should ignore the creeps. Or I get those who lash out at me for wanting to censor. I could care less if someone disagrees with me. If you haven't figured it out yet, about half the world of climbing disagrees with me or is irritated with something or other I say. I've learned to live with that just fine. But when the bug juice gets so heavy, it gets harder and harder to see through it and around it. Most people, I would think, would want to clean it off. Those most threatened by such a suggestion, appear to be strangely allied to the bugs or maybe are bugs themselves at heart. I've heard it said that whenever the devil is about to be cast out, he raises a big uproar. Don't know if that applies here, but there is a lot of noise over a simple inquiry about possibilities for cleaning off bug juice.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:17pm PT
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Oli...would you name names? I really don't see much of these pure-vomit posts of which you speak? The specific complaints about threads that I've seen have had nothing in them that I would think didn't deserve to be here. (karma thread, living history thread, use of profanity) If these aren't the sorts of things you had in mind, specifically, what and who is?
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
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I guess I've gotten too tired of this subject to care anymore. I see the mentality of those who have been here much longer than I, and I really don't want to tread on their comfort zones. I just opened a discussion, and thought such things might be worth talking about. But I really have nothing more to contribute. It seems too much of a struggle even to communicate what I'm actually saying. I'm sure Werner will have a clever quip that would serve to end this thread.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 20, 2007 - 08:06pm PT
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... a kid physically spewing on the table forces everyone there to actively participate in THAT event, whereas me "spewing" words here on this forum IN NO WAY forces you to read it ...
Just don't clip the vomit.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 20, 2007 - 08:15pm PT
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Oli Wrote:
"I just opened a discussion, and thought such things might be worth talking about."
Things are worth talking about Oli.
This is just what it looks like.
We're a rough bunch.
Most of us understand your frustration; eventually there is nothing left to say about it.
You can always tell us a story.
-Or help get one told.
Maybe help us out on the Mark Powell Thread?
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 08:20pm PT
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Jul 20, 2007 - 08:24pm PT
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"don't want to tread on their comfort zones. "
I do sometimes find comfort in anarchy.
L8, mon.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 20, 2007 - 08:37pm PT
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Here it is Oli,
Maybe migrate to this thread for a bit:
"El Cap 50 years ago today"
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=418863&tn=0
We need help formulating some questions for Mark Powell in that thread.
As you have just given an interview to Climbing, perhaps your input would be fresh & instructive.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 08:53pm PT
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Pat:
I was just one of the many who entirely support where you are trying to get to. What is not so clear is how to get there. There are probably many lurkers out there for every poster, so we may be making much more progress than is apparent. People are thinking about the points you have raised. Ouch! is on it so success can't be far away.
It has always been that way hasn’t it? We figured it out before so, together, we can probably do it again.
Getting away for a bit in the 50 year thread is a first rate idea.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 20, 2007 - 10:48pm PT
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RE:
"now I feel cheap, a little dirty even."
hmm, this thread has hope after all...
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 21, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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The younger you are, the more spew you have been exposed to and the more inured you are to it. Is this a good thing? I am not certain it is a good thing because it becomes easier and easier to not feel anothers pain. Yet the reality is that cleaning up the mess is a form of censorship. One persons slime is another persons form of expression.
Personally, I would like to see us all clean up our efforts a bit. Do a form of self censorship. Some could learn to not be so superior, some could learn to not be so arrogant, some could learn to be less egotistical. We all could learn something.
Do I want squeeky clean? I don't know. I use to play rugby and football and I still like some of that down and dirty action. But when we played pickup games we banned the dirty players, because we didn't want to get hurt playing a game.
What I do know is the more you use things like swear words the less affective they become. I like my words to have meaning. I want my yes to be yes and my no to mean no. When I swear, I want it to have the right impact. I probably swear too much for that.
Think about the different generations. It wasn't that long ago when there were no swear words on TV. Movies barely had them. Even my generation didn't have it that much. Can you imagine Bonanza today. Hoss, you stupid effing brokeback gay pig. Or how about Maxwell Smart getting jiggy with agent 99. And today that would be shown to a third grader.
You think it is so easy to skip a post. I don't. I skim more, but I still see things and they still bother me.
Wes, do you notice that you sneer at people when you speak to them? Maybe you don't care, but I do. I care because I know that to get good stories to flow, those who have them need to feel welcome and appreciated. Or they just don't tell their stories.
Is that pandering? Maybe. So what. I don't see it as such, I see it as just trying to be friendly. But even if you do, why do you think it is such a big deal? Is it because you think you should be pandered to also? Or your friends should be? Or do you see it as some kind of weakness. Because what I see here is that lots of us just plain ol appreciate a good story, especially if it involves climbing, climbing history or the great outdoors. So we work to make the right atmosphere available to those who have the stories.
Whats wrong with that? And why wont you help? Do you really get so much pleasure from acting superior? Because eventually you will learn that thats a small mans game.
Oli, I hope that you stick around. I don't think anyone here really wants change. I think that you see that now. A few do, I do, but what I want to see change is that people learn to show a little more respect to each other.
Around a real campfire, the big dogs would probably throw someone who was messing with the good times into the river. Thats just not as possible on the internet.
Peace
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2007 - 03:47am PT
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Thanks Moosie and John Stannard. Lots of good thought. I feel no more desire to go forward with any of my ideas or inquiries. Several people here actually continue, after everything I said, to say I want to censor. They can't follow what I'm saying at all, so I'm not going to force it on them. As in the movie, apparently we have a failure to communicate.
Let me end with a story, since I haven't told one in a while. How I feel right now might be a tiny bit like how Bridwell may have felt (at the end of the story):
Bridwell yelled at me in Camp 4 to get my gear and come with him, as someone had fallen on the Apron. We needed to go do a rescue. Several others, including Mike Covington, joined the run to the cars. When we got there, a leg was sticking out about 30 feet above the ground on a ledge. Another climber was standing on a ledge several hundred feet above. The route was Goodrich Pinnacle (left side). The climber, who owned the leg sticking out from the ledge, had been rappeling, and the anchor pulled. The fellow fell to his death. Not one of us wanted to go up that thirty feet to see the gore. Bridwell worked up the courage and did a lieback up a corner, arriving at the ledge. He stood on the end of the ledge, and turned around, facing outward, leaning with his backside against the main wall. It was clear his face had turned white. He stood there, simply gazing out away, toward the Royal Arches. He clearly was disturbed. The fellow's brain was about twenty feet from his skull, on the ledge. Anyway, Covington chose to second Bridwell and do the route up to the climber above, who had no rope now or way to get down. When they reached him, Jim started right away setting up a new anchor for a rappel (to get the guy down). As Jim was hammering in a piton, the fellow (having just seen his partner die), blurted, dead seriously, "You don't have to overdrive it."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 21, 2007 - 09:46am PT
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Oli
I very much appreciate your contributions here and hope you bear with us and the process of making the most of this medium. It's important for all of us to raise questions with each others about what we're doing here to make it better.
You wrote
"Several people here actually continue, after everything I said, to say I want to censor. They can't follow what I'm saying at all, so I'm not going to force it on them."
With due respect Oli, I follow you just fine and I have to say that you are calling for what amounts to censorship.
It's an understandable call to clean up great threads from choss but none of us can figure out a way to do it that doesn't have unwanted side effects and go down very slippery slopes.
You did make a suggestion regarding a method and nearly everyone here considers it censorship. If you have a new suggestion for an actual method, I haven't seen it, but I'd love to hear it.
I'd like you to consider that, although you have a huge wealth of experiece as a climber, you are perhaps relatively new to this medium of internet forum communication. Like climbing ethics in a specific area or a local climbing community, this forum, and forums in general, have culture, ethics and nuances that, while always changing and developing, might not be immediately obvious to someone new in town.
A climber coming out of the gym might see the way outdoor climbing is handled and say "Why don't we fix this climb's holds with glue, or make this climb doable with some added holds?" While those might be reasonable suggestions for a specific climb, the larger community has seen the consequences that such actions would have as a whole and there are usually ethics against it. Deleting people's posts is much like that. It makes sense for specific posts but not as a rule. Moderated forums do that, but we aren't moderated and most like that.
Bear with us and things will make more sense as we move forward.
I would like you to consider one additional issue. If you'd read this thread from the beginning, you'll notice that you've talked repeatedly and at length about "Small Minds" and compared people and their contributions to very ugly things. On the other hand, you are relatively sensitive yourself to slights and minor insults that were directed at you. It's worth putting the shoe on the other foot and consider giving others more respect as human beings. Nobody is going to take being called a small mind whose contribution is bug juice without getting worse, not better.
When Melissa asked for specific names and examples of what needed to be removed, you balked and called the thread closed.(at least for yourself) That's perhaps understandable but if any actual system for removing posts was implemented, it would be naming names and making judgements.
That leads me to think that we still have a gap between the understandable desire to have great discourse and content here, and the difficulty in getting there without unwanted side effects.
With peace and respect.
Karl
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MikeL
climber
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Jul 21, 2007 - 10:24am PT
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Good thread, and worth the efforts.
Karl (and others above) think that things won't change much for all of your complaints and writing, Oli: you'll get used to how things are around here.
I'll dissent. Just like language, communities are organic bodies. Socially constructed, they change with interactions (albeit not very quickly).
It's not all been for nought, Oli. With this conversation, you've helped to make a difference, even if not a very great one from your point of view today. Everyone does every time they get involved. That's the good and the bad of it: the more that people are politely civilized, critically insightful, and sincere, the more that others will be, too--and of course, vice versa.
It's all good, really--especially the disagreements. How boring it would be here if all of us were simply preaching to the same choir.
"I insisted that our Cause could not expect me to become a nun and that the movement should not be turned into a cloister. If it meant that, I did not want it. 'I want freedom, the right to self-expression, everybody's right to beautiful, radiant things.'"
(Emma Goldman)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 21, 2007 - 10:54am PT
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"Karl (and others above) think that things won't change much for all of your complaints and writing, Oli: you'll get used to how things are around here.
I'll dissent. Just like language, communities are organic bodies. Socially constructed, they change with interactions (albeit not very quickly). "
Not at all. I think the discussion and attention we pay to this will certainly help and direct us to better understanding and communication. I just don't think we can do it by increasing the ability to delete posts in the manner suggested.
I concur with Tarbaby's excellent post somewhere above. If we do it ourselves by community consensus and communication, it will be great. Let's make a win-win for as many as possible with minimum force
peace
Karl
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 21, 2007 - 12:40pm PT
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Thanks Karl,
Lots of good perspectives here for sure.
Supertopo is a phenomenal asset for so many of us and it is continually what we make of it. I think we all agree the nature of the construct and the resultant dynamic is worth some thought. I see we are going to do ourselves and Chris Mac proud by endeavoring to make the best of it.
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MikeL
climber
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Jul 21, 2007 - 04:01pm PT
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I personally think you changed your mind from post to post, Karl, but no matter. I like where you ended up.
However, I need to add a couple thoughts. If you're expecting peer pressure and informal dialogues to change the community to a better set of standards and practices, then remember that those tactics take considerable time to create significant effects. Moreover, for that to work, the membership needs to be remain somewhat stable. My limited experience (3 years) here would suggest that active membership is fluid and that individual members have significant effects.
Second, my casual observations (and repeated threads on this very topic) would suggest that those kinds of informal tactics aren't working. ST is ST--whatever it is. It may simply be an anarchy of climbers without community standards, practices, and values (other than a regard for climbing). Expecting to shift or change the "non-community" to anything different might be a complete folly.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 21, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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I kind of like ants, myself. They're industrious, quiet, useful members of our ecosystem, whether the real world or SuperTopo. Ok, a few kinds bite or sting, and most make a bad smell if you squash them. But most are harmless and functional, albeit a bit dull. Some are even commemorated in Werner's Ant Tree, and a few other routes in the Valley are known for their ants. There are many ants (aka lurkers?) on SuperTopo, who aren't noticed much, but are there when needed.
Ant poo isn't within my knowledge, but I'd never noticed it was a problem. Likewise, ants rarely seem to have unfortunate interactions with my windshield.
There are, sadly, other insects which infest the real world, and SuperTopo, and annoy others. Some merely whine. Some are distracting - if you let them. A few bite and sting, get squashed on the windshield/server, or are otherwise annoying or obnoxious. Almost all have a role in our ecosystem, even if it's only as food for birds or each other. (Yikes - I'm beginning to sound like Werner.)
In normal social interaction, such as a campfire, the annoying insects would soon comply with behavioural norms, or be made to leave. That's not so easily accomplished in a virtual environment - lessons in social interaction learned from parents or kindergarten seem to get forgotten. I don't think there's any easy way to prevent such behaviour without sacrificing other desirable attributes. To take one example, some well-known climbers have wonderful stories, but are shy. They might tell their stories under a pen name, but not if their real name was required.
I simply ignore threads and posters who either have nothing relevant to say, or who say it in an offensive manner. There's sadly too many, although many such threads are easily identified and bypassed. A few weeks ago, a friend died in a rappelling accident. There was a thread about it on another climbers' forum. Two or three idiots marred it with irrelevant insults. I simply posted something asking that all those contributing review their posts, and remove or edit anything that wasn't relevant and appropriate.
It would be nice sometime to have a constructive discussion about old generations giving way to the new, a classic question for the poets, but one relevant to climbing and SuperTopo. The median age here may be 40 or more - many of us are still active, often at a respectable level, but for most of us our best days are behind us. New climbers sometimes see the world in new and different ways, some of which may even be better. No climber has a monopoly on wisdom and knowledge, and if we hope that others might learn from us, or be entertained, we should remember that we also can still learn.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2007 - 05:21pm PT
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You guys are too deep for my simple mind, I guess.
I always thought censorship was to suppress or eliminate things that are in opposition to your own point of view. I mean, for example, I cited the Bush administration, where they haven't wanted the world to believe global warming is a reality. So they had some of the best scientists in the world write essays on the subject, thinking they would get some good info on their side of the argument. To their suprise, every one of the essays confirmed that global warming is happening. So the Bush administration edited (censored) every one of those essays. I don't know if you saw the documentary, but every one of those scientists was appalled that his or her words were altered, and they all got together and made a public protest. All the critical things were changed, eliminated, or even rewritten. That is pure self-serving censorship.
I don't want to cut out anyone's opinion or feeling, if even they vehemently disagree with me, and even if some of what they say is really objectionable. I'm not afraid of dissent, discussion, differences of opinion, heated debate, or any of that. I'm hurt by slander and falsehoods and petty criticism that is calculated to injure. I am an artist and have very deep feelings. But I am not destroyed by someone not liking me. And I have to give them that right. But I gave the example above of posts that simply come in out of nowhere, their only possible value being the humor of their utter incongruity, or their obscene non-sequitur nature, such as,
"Welcome, Doug Robinson, to the forum. Good to have you here."
"I loved your Pratt piece."
"I didn't like some of your Pratt piece."
"I don't like you because you were partly to blame for our having to give up pitons. What's this clean climbing stuff? I love my pitons."
"Your mother sucks cocks in hell." (that famous line said by the possessed girl in the Exorcist, sorry for the example).
But you see how this is not an opinion, nothing in agreement or in disagreement with anything, not even pertinent to anyone, just an obscene intrusion. If I start a thread, perhaps it could imply some small bit of ownership? I can choose not to go to other threads started by people I know are offensive. I can do the best I can to read around garbage, and I can sigh when a good thread is hijacked and ruined by a sudden rush of demented bugs, but in my own thread I might be able to do a little clean up, when the exorcist arrives. That was the possibility I was thinking about -- not insisting on. As with John Stannard, I can hardly imagine how it could work, though, with so many opposed, but I wanted to hear what people had to say. To cut out that line by the possessed girl is not removing anyone's opinion. You are eliminating something that isn't anything to begin with. It has to be something of value for you to call it censorship. Even Wes's juvenile blurtings at least verge on some kind of an opinion, undisciplined, illogical, mean-spirited often, shallow as a puddle of bug juice, as they might appear to some readers (certainly not me...). I can live with some of these kids who find fun in contention for contention's sake, but the pure inanity, or less than inanity, cannot really be of value, can it? If it is, then I really need to get a clue, I guess.
Karl said,
"I have to say that you are calling for what amounts to censorship."
As I said, I am easily offended by mean-spirited remarks. That seems to be my nature, but ultimately I can live with them. Snyd said some hot headed things, and then we got to talking, and now I think a lot of him. His initial remarks hurt, but I didn't want to remove them. Censorship is to control others, in order to protect yourself. I don't want to control any person who is any kind of regular person, even if thy hate everything I say and do. I want to clean off the "your mother sucks * in hell" stuff, and only in my own threads, of which I am author. I guess that is a question. Should not an author have some say in what becomes of his "published" discussion? But as I have said, I'm not demanding anything, just thinking aloud.
To me, it's like creating a route in Tuolumne. You place (hopefully) a minimum of bolts, widely spaced, taking care and getting pretty tired making the route the best you can, and then someone comes a long and whams in a bolt right at the beautiful runout section, the really classic testpiece section of this route. Would you chop that bolt? I know a lot of people who would. Others would say the happy bolter has his freedom and the right to do what s/he wishes, that the rock belongs to everyone, and that there is room for all sorts of kinds of people and climbers.
Karl says,
"you'll notice that you've talked repeatedly and at length about 'Small Minds' and compared people and their contributions to very ugly things."
That's a good point, Karl. I should be called to accountability for that. I shouldn't do that. I should be kinder probably, but usually I am very kind, and it does seem small to say some of the things some people say. Maybe I should change the wording to, "They have too much time on their hands." But now, wait. Am I now being censored subtly? This is all getting confusing. I don't often attach those negative descriptive phrases to a single specific person. I let people wonder to whom I refer. They can see if they bear any likeness to those words. Some will not make the connection at all. I am extremely respectful of people who deserve respect. I have a low tolerance for those who are mean-spirited or who are bullies, who want only to harm. I have always tended to be a mirror of a sort and bounce back to people the spirit they send my way. Some people hate what they see in me, and it's because they see themselves. It's a strange quirk of mine that usually serves me well but at times makes things a bit difficult. Those who are flagrantly stupid, want to injure others verbally, or whatever, don't like me much, as they see themselves in that mirror.
Karl said,
"When Melissa asked for specific names and examples of what needed to be removed, you balked and called the thread closed.(at least for yourself)."
I thought I had given examples, such as the "I want to such a dog's purple boner." What I was saying to Melissa is that I was simply getting tired of it all. I was running out of things to say, and nothing I was saying anyway was of much value to anyone. I didn't "balk." I just had reached that "point" of fatigue, at least for that day, seeing little progress, though some have said progress was made. And here I am back at it again, sigh. But at least I took the suggestion and made a post on the 50 year thread. Not a great post, but something.
I appreciate all your feedback, everyone.
Pat
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 21, 2007 - 06:27pm PT
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Wes wrote:
And you were completely right for doing it. I would have been right there with you... only they would have been the ones in the hospital.
Right...you look like you could barely fight your way out of a wet paper bag. Talk is cheap and you seem to have a lot of it.
A balding 20-something pebble puller. Everybody run.
Of course this is in the name of good fun!
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MikeL
climber
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Jul 21, 2007 - 08:37pm PT
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Welcome, Oli, to the forum. It's good to have you here.
"If you want to make enemies, try to change something."
(Woodrow Wilson)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 21, 2007 - 08:45pm PT
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Not really on topic, but that rock looks great.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 21, 2007 - 09:45pm PT
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Tar...it also looks a little on difficult side...maybe why Wes can't do it!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 21, 2007 - 10:21pm PT
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Was he playing a video game or were they five hostile women bikers...that might explain his success???
Looks about 5.8...145 and balding. He better have something else going for him.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2007 - 10:21pm PT
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He said, "censorship -- the imposition of an "official" standard of what is acceptable by a central authority -- is -not- going to happen"
I am hardly a "central authority," and in no way am I trying to impose an "official standard" of what is acceptable. But few walks of life worth walking are without a few "standards."
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 21, 2007 - 10:44pm PT
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(Mostly regarding khanom's request...)
Do any of yous really use the killfile feature or tailor your viewing to some rating threshold on other sites? If there's one thing that would be a bigger waste of time than skimming through OT and random crap, it's trying to peice together the non-sequitors that would be pretty much everywhere if some of the more prolific posters were nixed.
As for post rating...I'm thinking that the prom kings of supertopo are already implicit and actually scoring each other will do little more than piss people off.
If the other sites with their killer filters and such are so superior, why is this site so popular? Why did the poobah's eventually settle here?
The best signal to noise that I've ever seen on an internet climbing forum was rec.climbing. It was also the least moderated in a formal sense, but the one where bullshit got shot down the hardest. Part of the reason for it's demise is that when the www beat nntp as a way of using the internet, Supertopo had the best signals...residual noise in whatever quatity be damned.
Isn't it about time for an Ouch! post involving a purple dog dick, Tim Stich, Bear 46, and Crimpie sunbathing? It's all on topic so long as the topic is Supertopo and not necessarily rock climbing!
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Jul 21, 2007 - 11:14pm PT
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I hope this hits 300.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jul 21, 2007 - 11:29pm PT
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Ouch! That's too much.
Ride 'em cowgirl!
That vomiting ant would be SuperTopo's Wanker-in-Chief, A. Crowley. Say hello to Crowley -
At least Wes can climb.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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"karma points of the user ....."
Hahahahahaha ,,,,,, Oh man .......
You know.....
I like watching good climbers and I like watching poor climbers.
There's just something I always learn from both.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2007 - 01:10am PT
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I don't know these people, or their intent, but in defense of Raimit, he deleted a post that was offensive to me. That showed a little touch of class, in my eyes.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jul 22, 2007 - 01:17am PT
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A kill function might not be Web 2.0, but Web 2.0 would be overkill.
Try kill function first. Everyone gets to customize their view of ST without censoring the view of anyone else.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 01:33am PT
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khanom
Don't get me wrong I totally understand your points. I just thought it was funny (user karma points) to me.
Do whatever you like, but me I like to "see" everything.
I don't like wearing sunglasses, unless I'm in the snow.
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MikeL
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 11:22am PT
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khanom:
Is it your opinion that your method would provide more or another kind of feedback to people who respond to posts? Sort of like: "approve" or "disapprove"?
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MikeL
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 11:57am PT
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You've done a fine job of making yourself clear. I think I get it. Sorry for being so naive about it and making you repeat yourself.
Thx.
EDIT: It would be a different experience. Not bad or good, just different.
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Jul 22, 2007 - 12:00pm PT
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Dear Webmaster, please dont f*#k with/up supertopo. Love, atchafalaya
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dipper
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 12:10pm PT
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Slashdot.org uses a system that lets people keep an eye on each other. Not sure how well it works as I am not a member and only rarely browse that board to keep an eye on the uber-geeks of the world.
Maybe Chris Mac et. al. could look into replicating that sort of system or use some parts of it here.
I am not sure how to do so without censoring, but it would be refreshing to not have to wade through the babble when reading an otherwise interesting, intelligent and informative thread.
Do not feed the troll is a good start. But how to keep those with split personalities, or other mental defects from replicating their woes online? That is, one person with multiple handles.
Having a section for adults and another section for...other warrants more thought.
Pat, don't let the bastards wear you down. Please keep sharing your pearls with us.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Jul 22, 2007 - 12:58pm PT
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I looked at the digg thread posted. Interesting concept (though I am in the leave-it-as-it-is camp). What was fascinating is the most of the blocked posts were equally as stupid as many of the unblocked posts. Not sure it accomplished much. My .02 dollars.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 01:36pm PT
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I agree with Crimpie, Werner, and Locker.
BTW..This is a weird thread....but interesting study of where there's a will, there's a wimp.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 02:16pm PT
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I will throw change-up knuckle ball into the strike zone.
You will miss and the blind plate umpire will call "OUT!".
The game will be over.
People will then go back to their respective happy homes,
To watch more summer reruns .......
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 22, 2007 - 02:33pm PT
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Wes wrote:This is currently an open campfire. Mingle, seek out the people you dig, ignore the people you don't. Pretty simple.
No Wes...it's many campfires and as the old saying goes...there is a time and place for everything. You seem to have a knack for missing the right time and place.
You still seem about mid-20's to me.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 02:44pm PT
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"Ouch: that sounds funny, but what does it mean?"
Incessant whining.
I don't for a minute believe anyone is not enjoying this thread. Look at all the fodder it has provided for soul ripping expressions of outrage and horror.
You gotta give the devil his due. Wes is certainly more articulate than the average bear. He didn't keep this thread alive. It was the dogpiling that did the deed.
LOL! You gotta love Supertaco.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 22, 2007 - 02:58pm PT
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wes wrote:You still seem about mid-20's to me.
When I grow up, I want to take things as serious as you.
Peter Principle...you can't...you don't have what it takes.
Kinda like that boulder problem.
I don't take everything serious...I just know when too.
Wes wrote:Devil or Ιούδας Ισκάριωθ, either way, my actions are precipitated from divine will.
Which gives you the easy out for your actions.
You are a weak troll...get a new game.
BVB has something to say to you...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 22, 2007 - 03:27pm PT
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Wes...was that done on a camera phone. Why do balding men alway seem to grow beards??
Been nice spending this time with you...gotta go. Going to see Dylan tonite.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 22, 2007 - 04:08pm PT
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"I don't for a minute believe anyone is not enjoying this thread. Look at all the fodder it has provided for soul ripping expressions of outrage and horror."
Ouch! You should post up your words more often. :-)
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 04:28pm PT
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Melissa, I am sorely afflicted with hoof in mouth disease. I am much more at ease communicating via my pals Werner and Bear 46. They like me...well..make that tolerate me. LOL!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 22, 2007 - 10:50pm PT
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Thanks for the reply Oli.
The devil is in the details, as power to remove the really stupid stuff becomes a matter of opinion, drawing the line, and leads to abuse by those with less restraint and wisdom.
As for Khanom's tech solution. Sounds reasonable if we have somebody competant volunteer to do it. This is Chris Mac's show and it's a good one.
This forum is 10x better than it was in the early days. (some disgree) We've made great progress already
Peace
Karl
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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This all looks like a lot of wasted energy just to get in a lick at Wes.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 22, 2007 - 11:21pm PT
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khanom,
RE:
"but as a guide I think it can be very useful and help streamline and clean up the experience"
if I correctly understand what you're describing, it also sounds like another interactive tool, one that seems like it could add a new level of feedback and communication, but without offending anyone.
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MikeL
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 11:30pm PT
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What Raydog said is what I failed to convey earlier. I agree.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 22, 2007 - 11:50pm PT
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RE:
"people fear change"
big time, even the prospect of change.
in fact
entire civilizations have collapsed because of the population's
collective inability to change - over and over again.
sort of OT but perhaps worthy of note
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 23, 2007 - 01:05am PT
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Wes would be OK, probably even beneficial to the forum, if he'd realize just how inane his attempts at troll-humor really are. No one gets a great laugh out of total stupidity such as wes spews. But I've read posts of his that reveal a great, nearly hairless, intelligence. I'd like to meet the real guy who's so smart his brains have constricted the blood-flow to his hair follicles.
-JelloWithARapidlyReceedingHairlineBecauseI'mSoSmart
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jul 23, 2007 - 01:08am PT
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But I've read posts of his that reveal a great, nearly hairless, intelligence.
hahahaha! good one Jello!
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 23, 2007 - 02:36am PT
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 23, 2007 - 02:42am PT
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Jeff wrote:Wes would be OK, probably even beneficial to the forum, if he'd realize just how inane his attempts at troll-humor really are. No one gets a great laugh out of total stupidity such as wes spews.
Wes probably doesn't even know when he is getting cock-blocked at a bar...but I could be wrong.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 23, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
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Dingus, you Dingleberry! Just 'cause I posted a comment to this thread don't mean I wanna stifle anyone. Don't tell me to go hunkerin' off to some god-forsaken website on the dark side o' the net. I like it right here, where the lord's only begotten son, mr christ hisself, can set me right b'fore I die.
-JelloOffal
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2007 - 12:38pm PT
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And there I was, in Yosemite, and...
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 23, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
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christ has spoken! I'm already THERE! It's OK for me to go now...
-JelloOffToGloriousHeavens
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 23, 2007 - 12:57pm PT
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Dingus, do you honestly think it matters one whit to me if somebody recognizes me, or not? I actually much prefer situations where I'm unknown as there is no burden of pre-conceptions - good or bad - to deal with.
Now, carry on with your teachings.
-AnnonymousJello
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Jul 23, 2007 - 02:19pm PT
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khanom: The digg site and method is interesting. I did go and check it out. Clicked on the blocked posts even.
The one thing about the method that I don't care for at all is the "voting" or assigning value, or any quantitative measure of a poster or their posts - The +3 diggs or -19 diggs part. If we were to go to that here, I'd be offline *immediately* and looking for the new home of climbers online. That rating part of any site is a huge turn off to me.
I'm curious as to your and others' thoughts on that aspect of a set up like Digg.com.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 23, 2007 - 02:52pm PT
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Does anyone remember what the original argument here was all about? Was it the color purple?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 23, 2007 - 03:00pm PT
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knanom, read DMT one more time, rule of the jungle, natural selction, babe!
Even after all his negative bullsh#t, weakwrist is trying to convince us that he has climbed (I suspect it is true, though I am awaiting more proof than TCs photos of him near an 8-footer and some other guys reflecting that maybe he did get off the ground, upon a time) If there was a vote, he would either be gone, or on top; fug that, either way. But this way, maybe, some day he will post something about why he climbs and what it means to him. Maybe not though, lots of things go extinct.
People need to express their opinions but we dont need to be held to their judgements
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Jul 23, 2007 - 04:15pm PT
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Thank Khanom. Appreciate hearing what you have to say.
Also, happy to hear I'm not the only one who likes to feel my body.
*snicker*
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MikeL
climber
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Jul 23, 2007 - 07:24pm PT
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LOL!
You're BAD.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Jul 23, 2007 - 11:20pm PT
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guilty. :)
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jstan
climber
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Jul 23, 2007 - 11:28pm PT
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Three hours nine minutes.
Did we have a pool going on this one?
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Jul 23, 2007 - 11:30pm PT
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How could anyone resist the softball that was lobbed over the plate on that one?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 23, 2007 - 11:33pm PT
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Given that SuperTopo fancies itself as the last lawless frontier, perhaps we should form a SuperTopo Vigilance Committee.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 23, 2007 - 11:40pm PT
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Deep in the jungle of Peru I was in a small town once where everyone had a gun. It was the true wild west.
Me and Shipley were protected by 20 some body guards there with uzis and AK-47s.
What a life on the wild side ..........
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jstan
climber
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Jul 24, 2007 - 12:46am PT
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Anders:
Agreed. Super Taco Defenders. Eh?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 24, 2007 - 01:57am PT
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" I climb because I like to feel my body." That could be the most climbing related post you've ever made, whatever your agenda really was in posting it.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
Last >>
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Nov 10, 2008 - 09:45pm PT
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Who here (usernames) has Admin priveledges , so I can watch my Ps and Qs around them ?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 10, 2008 - 11:37pm PT
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Do ya feel lucky, punk? Well? Do ya feel lucky?
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Max V02
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Nov 10, 2008 - 11:45pm PT
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"Go ahead, make my day..."
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| Messages 1 - 176 of total 176 in this topic |
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