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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 10, 2007 - 04:00pm PT
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The stories re crowding on the classics in the Are you Fast thread and the issue of nice lines with ancient bolts in the fade into obscurity thread prompts this prediction: As a result of the increase in climber numbers puts more and more crowd pressure on moderate classics there will be at some point in the future a lot of retrobolting (and I mean the addition of new bolts as opposed to replacement) of routes that are good quality, but are sparsely protected. In a climber generation or two, people will conclude that the FA party has no right to make a climb so sketchy that only a handful of people can do it. Well known testpieces might be preserved, but many others will be redrilled. I can see arguments both ways. I would like to routes left in their original condition. On the other hand, what right does one climber have to render a public natural resource unusable to the majority of other climbers?
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Jul 10, 2007 - 04:10pm PT
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'will be at some point in the future a lot of retrobolting"
Dude, the future has been here as long as new routes have gone up, FACT.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 10, 2007 - 04:20pm PT
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"On the other hand, what right does one climber have to render a public natural resource unusable to the majority of other climbers?"
As far as I'm concerned just the assumption this is somehow a valid and reasonable question dooms a certain percentage of climbs outright. It presumes [risk-free] fixed protection is somehow a right or entitlement and inalienable component of the usability of a 'public natural resource'. If "natural" is indeed a key edifice within that descriptor, then what if 'natural' public resources don't provide access to the 'majority of other climbers'?
The tortured logic behind questions such as this are a testament to and foundation for endless retro and grid bolting scenarios...
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Jul 10, 2007 - 04:27pm PT
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can ? check...
worms ? check...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 10, 2007 - 04:46pm PT
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opening can, check!
"unusable to the majority of other climbers"
HORSESH#T!
Toprope it.
Rap in from above and set a fixed line.
Which is not to say that I don't like lead climbing, but in this context of rebolting existing lines. well you get my point I hope...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 10, 2007 - 05:17pm PT
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there is case law supporting the idea that the gov't should [not] start regulating climbing, otherwise it may run the risk of assuming a duty of care it doesn't otherwise have.
with that said, YOSAR runs rescues of climbers, why not reduce costs and via ferrata The Nose.
[] = "post hoc sketchy" edit. see below regarding this typo by omission. :)
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2007 - 05:18pm PT
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What I am saying is that there are going to be more and more climbers who won't (1) top rope, especially multi-pitch stuff, (2) rap in or (3) learn to climb better. They also won't care that some long forgotten climber had the boldness or vision in 1976 to not place a single bolt on some obscure 5.9. When crowds get to the point where it's actually unlikely that parties will be able to get on the classic trade routes that pressure will be relieved elsewhere.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jul 10, 2007 - 05:34pm PT
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Crowds? [where's the ital. button on ST?]
If overcrowding is the problem, then can you prevent retrobolting with condoms?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jul 10, 2007 - 05:38pm PT
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We could relieve some of that pressure by changing to French ratings for sport climbs and gyms, and leaving the YDS (or TDS for you Tahquitz locals) for trad routes.
It would be sweet to have new climbers say "I climb 6b+" and then see the "5.7 100' runout" and say "what's 5.7?" Then maybe they'd have some respect for 5.7 slab or offwidth...which often deserves quite a bit of respect especially on old and obscure routes!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2007 - 05:59pm PT
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Recently I was thinking about what "Trad Style" meant.
It means you start at the ground and climb up, doing your very best to not fall. With "Trad," the onsight (or flash) is the ultimate goal. In other words, you don't weight your protection if at all possible.
While we all pretty much know this, it was an interesting realization for me. Trad means to climb with the intention of freeing every pitch, every time.
How, you may ask, does this relate to retrobolting old traditional lines? In short, the Traditional style of climbing will always live within many of us who climb. Retrobolting goes very much against that grain.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 10, 2007 - 06:03pm PT
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"As a result of the increase in climber numbers puts more and more crowd pressure on moderate classics there will be at some point in the future a lot of retrobolting (and I mean the addition of new bolts as opposed to replacement) of routes that are good quality, but are sparsely protected. In a climber generation or two, people will conclude that the FA party has no right to make a climb so sketchy that only a handful of people can do it."
There's already a place you can experience this. It's called Europe. Although there much of the convenience bolting is motivated by commercial considerations.
Why not cherish what we have, and try to improve ourselves to meet the challenges that nature provides, rather than use technology to reduce things to our comfort level? Retrobolting is a short, steep and slippery slope, and there's only so much nature out there to go around.
Climbing can never be safe, is by definition inconvenient, and should always provide challenges.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jul 10, 2007 - 06:08pm PT
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On the other hand, what right does one climber have to render a public natural resource unusable to the majority of other climbers?
This argument works also for putting a tramway up Half Dome, etc.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 10, 2007 - 06:10pm PT
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"What I am saying is that there are going to be more and more climbers who won't (1) top rope, especially multi-pitch stuff, (2) rap in or (3) learn to climb better. They also won't care that some long forgotten climber had the boldness or vision in 1976 to not place a single bolt on some obscure 5.9. When crowds get to the point where it's actually unlikely that parties will be able to get on the classic trade routes that pressure will be relieved elsewhere."
Ah different proposition.
Maybe localism for 'trad' areas will kick in and gumbies will get the smack down if they come up on the trad areas thinking they are all that.
It may be incumbent upon guidebooks to call out those issues... like what style a particular route goes up in. I recall a discussion about this issue where a route was TR'd first, then lead thru (tricky hard 5.11 moves on questionable rock). The FFA was then qualified with the disclaimer that it was done after preview. That way the true first free ascent much like Kelly is suggesting in his post can be gained without the preview. Bottom to top no falls and no previewing. The best style.
Not one I always live up to, but a superb goal nonetheless that preserves much.
To take that away just because a mob scene of gumbies and assmunches decides to play unilateralism with a bosch doesn't mean they get to make the rules for all of us. I for one would take offense if someone were to retro my masterpiece 5.9 route Transmogrification. 4 bolts in 110+ feet and a knob tie off and a couple nuts. I own a crow bar and epoxy and sand to patch the holes.
on the other hand many routes are too far distant for your average dickferbrains to bother with. It is the more urban crags that run the risk of overbolting. Boulder canyon comes to mind, but I'm not an expert on that location. Just rumors.
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Jul 10, 2007 - 06:22pm PT
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If someone goes to the effort to retrobolt a route I put up, more power to them. I had my experience, seems they are entitled to theirs.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jul 10, 2007 - 06:39pm PT
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If someone goes to the effort to retrobolt a route I put up, more power to them. I had my experience, seems they are entitled to theirs.
Count me in the other camp, I'm not glad that a few of my old routes have been retrobolted. In one case particularly, it wasn't due to any danger, there is fine trad pro and anchors. Rather, it was done (I am told) for the convenience of guides. What got lost then is not my experience, that's unchanged, but rather anyone else's chance to have a similar experience of self-sufficient ascent on that route. And that was a big part of its charm.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jul 10, 2007 - 06:45pm PT
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They still have that chance... don't clip the bolts
You climb a lot in gyms?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2007 - 06:58pm PT
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... don't clip the bolts.
This is always the last argument from those that feel routes are a common resource that should be made safe for everybody.
What is the problem with the following statement:
If you don't like my graffiti, don't look at it.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jul 10, 2007 - 07:20pm PT
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You?
I asked because I hear "just don't clip the bolts" most often from people used to gym climbing, where "touch only the yellow-tape holds" defines the game.
And because it's hard for me to believe that anyone who has actually climbed long steep routes (let's say 8 pitches or more) that have zero fixed pro or anchors, would think that the experience of climbing such a route would be no different if it had been fully bolted, but you just passed up all the bolts.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 10, 2007 - 07:24pm PT
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Whenever someone uses the "just don't clip them" argument I always feel like we've arrived at the point where Dawkins got to in commenting on folks who believe in creationism - that they're "ignorant, stupid, insane (or possibly wicked)".
In that context, he says ignorant is a compliment because that means they aren't stupid...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 10, 2007 - 07:24pm PT
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at one time weschrist, climbing meant to ascend, you know, move upwards. not hike ot the top and rappel and use construction tools to make the climb safe for weenies.
it used to mean that if you were a 5.10 climmber, you had some measure of confidence that you were not going to fall as that could have some very bad consequences.
i realize this is a difficult thing to grasp for some, but thats the way of it. those routes are really pretty few and far between.
but thats kewl. lets use your logic. then as i get older and that 5.11 gets too hard i can just drill a new hold. if you dont like it skip it. thats your game...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jul 10, 2007 - 07:25pm PT
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... don't clip the bolts.
Right.
You don't want to be hanging off of them when you chop them away.
Old topos will be used to figure out what bolts were added after the FA, so they can be removed.
This already happened on the Zodiac a few years ago. Some idiot, way back when, thought it was easier to bring a drill than some wide crack gear.
And if it hasn't been done already, there is a string of bolts up an A2/A3 corner fairly low on Dihedral Wall that need to be removed. Apparently, some moron put them in as free climbing pro. I don't think it was Tommy Caldwell; he freed it later.
There are a couple of bolt belays right next to a perfect crack on Excalibur that are questionable. They were put in after the FA, but nobody else had gear that would work back then. Or now, except for a rare few. So, maybe they ought to remain.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 10, 2007 - 07:29pm PT
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Moderate classics are crowded because they have good/fun climbing on them. Usually they are trad. Retrobolting runout slabs does not really solve the problem, because people wanted to go crack climbing and not slab climbing. I think people facing a line on a classic would be more likely to pick a nearby trad climb with a shorter queue/longer approach/fewer stars. It could be argued that creating overbolted slabs will just populate them with sport climbers. The trad climbers will still face crowded classics and the same preferred options.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2007 - 07:30pm PT
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Just because your graffiti was there first doesn't mean it has a right to remain.
Sadly, this argument has been already been taken by certain land managers where they have banned all fixed anchors in the areas they manage.
So the graffiti analogy might not be so great.
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Jul 10, 2007 - 07:39pm PT
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I dont support the "dont clip em" argument. Those who dont like em, should chop em. I mean, thats their vision of how the route should exist. Cheers.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2007 - 07:42pm PT
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"Deal with it."
Funny, weschrist, that this is the argument you use.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jul 10, 2007 - 07:44pm PT
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weschrist:
Nobody is talking about "fully bolting" a route with adequate protection.
Actually, your "just skip the bolts" post was in response to, and in fact quoted from, my post about a specific route that as I said, had plenty of traditional protection.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 10, 2007 - 07:58pm PT
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so weschrist, i take it that you are arguing that all climbing should be safe?
perhaps what we really need since there are more "idiot" accidents than runout ones is a safety certification program for all climbers.
damn that sounds like the freedom of the hills....
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2007 - 08:05pm PT
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I suppose retrobolting would be more likely to occur on, say, a four pitch route with one "r" rated section. It seems like at some point when the FA party is gone to that great Yosemite in the sky and the "bolt wars" long forgotten, someone will say there is no reason you should risk having to break both femurs to climb this otherwise great route, and shwack a bolt in. I am not talking about bolting cracks or grid bolting slabs.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 10, 2007 - 08:07pm PT
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Weschrist is indeed arguing that climbing should become risk-free entertainment for the masses and is basically trying establish a rationale for completing what has been a twenty year process of co-opting 'climbing' by folks who would never have been, nor ever wil be, 'climbers' without bolted routes. I personally still do not consider them climbers.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 10, 2007 - 08:18pm PT
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onthededge... wrote:
> I suppose retrobolting would be more likely to occur on, say, a four pitch route with one "r" rated section.
Can you provide a specific example? South Crack? The 5.7 friction pitch is way runout, but it has not stopped the route from being popular.
Eunuch/Boltway? I don't clip the added bolts. They are kind of a joke.
As others have noted, sometimes added bolts are accepted, or even encouraged by the FA party. Usually the additions are done shortly after the FA. An example would be Snake Dike.
> It seems like at some point when the FA party is gone to that great Yosemite in the sky and the "bolt wars" long forgotten,
:-) Bolt wars are not likely to be forgotten. There is often a difference of opinion on whether a route has too few or too many bolts, where they are positioned, etc. It is just part of having a diversity of climbers. Good thing there are crack climbs where we are free to place as much or little clean pro as we'd like.
> someone will say there is no reason you should risk having to break both femurs to climb this otherwise great route, and shwack a bolt in. I am not talking about bolting cracks or grid bolting slabs.
Even if the FA party is long gone, once a route has gotten quite a few ascents, it has a "constituency" (of the people who did it), and is unlikely to have bolts added or subtracted.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2007 - 08:20pm PT
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Well then .... a long scary run out
If your leader is a psychopath, then you may become a programmed puppet, and you risk being sexually abused by a long fall.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jul 10, 2007 - 08:33pm PT
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Hey weakwrist, "asinine ideals"! I said this before in another thread, but it bears repeating. When I started climbing all my climbing friends were environmentally oriented. How did that get to be an asinine ideal? The goal was to leave it like you found it, and that shouldn't have changed anywhere along the way. As for the accomplishments of those who came before you, well I'm pretty sure you don't measure up. One of the things that real, bottom up climbing measures is your heart. Most of you grid bolt types just dont get it, but no matter how "hard" the moves are on your latest (lamest) project, at the end you haven't accomplished anything. Climbing is about adventure, and the biggest part of that adventure is to found within yourself, measuring your courage against the challenges found in the natural world. Want a construction project, the gyms are full of em. Want a real accomplishment? I bet you can find it 100' out on 5.7, wondering where you should go, hoping against hope you are making the right decisions. Can't put yourself in that position? Might be a reality check on just how stud you really are, spraylord. By the way, I can't climb 5.12, but I have tasted my own bile plenty of times on far lower grades. Real adventures beckon son.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 10, 2007 - 08:34pm PT
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"It's perfectly reasonable for the FA to decide. It's unreasonable to retrobolt to suit everyone."
and the stzzo sayeth and it was good.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2007 - 08:39pm PT
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CC, dunno about a specific example. Agreed that routes get a constituency. I once argued against retrobolting a six pitch climb with crummy gear after I had done it. The climb was (or is?) a local testpiece back home and the FA party was considering adding bolts. I guess it would depend on the potential fall and the grade compared with the rest of the route. Runouts are not necessarily dangerous and a pitch of 5.6 or 5.7 with bad fall potential on a 5.9 or 5.10 climb is probably not going to bother anyone good enough to lead the crux pitches. Some routes have super sketch sections only because the FA party didn't have bolts or the leader was too gripped to stop and drill (I've only bolted on lead and know this to be true!). I don't whether adding bolts to such climbs is a good idea or not, it just seems likely to me that it will happen.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jul 10, 2007 - 08:47pm PT
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Uh-oh....my routes are toast.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 10, 2007 - 09:29pm PT
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I don't want to get sucked into this vortex...
But, couldn't let this mis-statement go uncorrected:
there is case law supporting the idea that the gov't should start regulating climbing, otherwise it may run the risk of assuming a duty of care it doesn't otherwise have.
Actually, the case law (and logic) stands for the exact opposite in a climbing context. If you don't regulate climbing safety, you then do not assume a duty over it. This is why land managers keep a hands off approach to bolt replacement (even in wilderness areas).
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 10, 2007 - 10:58pm PT
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" I guess it would depend on the potential fall and the grade compared with the rest of the route. Runouts are not necessarily dangerous and a pitch of 5.6 or 5.7 with bad fall potential on a 5.9 or 5.10 climb is probably not going to bother anyone good enough to lead the crux pitches."
But I only climb 4.9, so I want all those nasty 5.1 and up bolt protected for me. Not right to deny trying those routes to me.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2007 - 11:48pm PT
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The younger generation is being hatched in the gym and raised on Sport Climbing.
The future of bolting decisions is going to depend on how the values and ideas of "Trad climbing" is communicated to them, and if a significant portion of those climbers adopt them.
Some places it will happen differently than others. Changing ethics and practices regarding sex may be an exampled that's mirrored by climbing in some ways.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 11, 2007 - 01:28am PT
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Weschrist,
"Myopic" - for dipsh#ts who can't tell the difference - is when the views you espouse have wide-ranging and unintended consequences you fail to see or comprehend. My views preserve routes while yours reduce them to the lowest possible common denominator - entertainment, rather climbing. The difference is I wouldn't call you "myopic" because you are well aware of and desire just those consequences. And, as Dawkins noted when defining the difference between ignorant and stupid, you clearly don't have the luxury of claiming ignorance. Is it a fish and loaves sort of deal relative to the needs of the masses that drives your views or are you just a vertical socialist?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 11, 2007 - 01:34am PT
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"Changing ethics and practices regarding sex may be an example that's mirrored by climbing in some ways."
Well, that explains the putrid smelling slime on some of the newer bolts I've run across lately. You'd think simply clipping them would be enough of a [cheap] thrill all by itself. And I'm personally quitting climbing the first time one vibrates...
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 11, 2007 - 01:49am PT
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weschrist suffers from a complex. (Does anybody really believe that's his real name?)
He's obviously intelligent, but suffers from the delusion of his own importance.
Best to ignore the twerp lest he lower the vibe of ST. His views are the rantings of a child who has just discovered his own mentality, and thinks it's something special.
-JelloChrist
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Jul 11, 2007 - 02:07am PT
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jello yer being mean ;-)
so - does this mean i can retrobolt something in patagonia ? i keep hearing about these bolts...jk...
i think he's got a point with the prediction though, at least here in the usa...i see it as an insurance issue at some point - lawsuits and courts judging one way and boom ! suddenly its an issue on the more traveled routes...i don't agree with it though... i think its case by case...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 11, 2007 - 03:05am PT
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looking sketch, sorry for my typo. good catch.
i'm editing my post with a bracket and explanation now.
the word "not" was supposed to be typed in between "should" and "start" so as to read "should not start".
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Degaine
climber
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Jul 11, 2007 - 03:15am PT
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Is it me or does it seem ironic that the OP started this thread by referencing a discussion where CRACK climb classics where the subject du jour? Lucky Streaks (only fixed gear I remember were a few slings around horns/flakes/chocks), RR on Fairview (one or two 30 year old pitons that no one clips) and West Crack (one bolt at start and a bolted first belay). Yep, all crack climbs that masses are lining up for, all climbs that everyone seems to enjoy and that no one seems to complain about (except when there are slow parties ahead of them...).
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 11, 2007 - 03:22am PT
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huh. Maybe I'm not concerned because I'm a relative newcomer (6 years in the game) and things don't seem to have gone to hell yet. Here's my take, boiled down:
The gymbies healyje fears will all be gone from climbing in less than 3-4 years, hardly enough time to really get out there and retrobolt everything.
Those with 5 years in will either be way into sport, which isn't really served by retroing most trad climbs, or develop the appreciation for climbing history and/or quality gear routes.
The sky ain't falling.
There will always be a chicken bolt here or there. There will always be climbers willing to do something about the chicken bolt. That's why I like climbing, let's just say that one of the appealing things about it is what I'll term the 'dingus anarchy approach.'
No rules! Keep it that way!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 11, 2007 - 03:59am PT
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It's not the 0-3 years the vast majority are 'climbers' I worry about - it's the folks who climb longer, buy a drill, and are bent on providing that tidal flow with fresh meat in a selfless spirit of 'community service'. Now maybe you think no fresh or recycled meat is being served, but posts here and elsewhere clearly demonstrate it is and at a fairly relentless pace where it is not closely regulated by land managers or private land owners. Or is it your contention that those thousands of drills are languishing in silent disuse...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jul 11, 2007 - 10:17am PT
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Adding bolts to all those old moderate scary routes bothers me. I am not a very good climber, but there were a few times where I had to reach deep within myself to climb one of those moderates that was near my technical limit, and that was what I strived for. It is those times that are etched into my head. Like Superpin in the Needles of South Dakota. Not a hard climb, say 10b. But if you are a gymbo 10 or even 12 climber it takes on a whole new meaning. My understanding is that even that route had an added bolt and I feel bad about that. I probably would have had the gumption to do it without that added bolt, maybe not.
But the point is, I had to reach into a place inside that many sport climbers dont reach in order for me to succeed.
It is a different game where the stakes are high, but the feeling of accomplishment the knowing that yes, you really climbed 5.10 (or whatever).
I like clipping bolts too, its fun. But when you have to reach inside to make moves with high stakes, you tap into a place that you cant tap into any other way.
Those who say that this type of climbing shold go away because it is the future is proposing taking the future into a place of sterilazation. Canned adventure with a sure thing where personal responsibility is lost.
Safety through bolts is not a new thing; however, there are more climbers out there that see nothing wrong with making everything as safe as possible. Is there an endpoint to it?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jul 11, 2007 - 11:27am PT
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stzzo wrote: I like the the runouts for the same reasons...
I hear this argument a lot - the "I like the fear". I'd like to share another perspective - one that is *not* stzzo's, but is allied with it, and is decidedly against that of Weschrist.
Personally, I do *not* like runouts with ledge potential. But sometimes I do them anyway. It's my choice to do them or not, based on my own desires. I would not want anyone to take that choice away by adding a bolt, nor would I take that choice away from others.
Here's an example: I recently did a climb in the Gunks called CCK. My first try, I backed off the second pitch, which has a few hard (for that climb) unprotected moves, fifteen feet off the belay. My first try, I also was unsure of which way to go, and the climb was quite wet. Basically, I chose defeat over a potentially serious fall. Last weekend, I went back and sent it - the rock was dry, I had figured out which way to go, and I was ready for the challenge.
There were two big payoffs. First - pitch 3 was as good as I had hoped. It was the whole reason why I had dealt with the unprotected moves on P2. But the second payoff was the feeling of accomplishment at raising myself to the level of the climb. I won't soon forget either one of those payoffs.
Cheers,
GO
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 11, 2007 - 11:38am PT
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weschris, could one then not also say that chisseling a few holds here and there to make it easier for people to climb be a valid thing as well? Is you say yes (but don't use them if you don't like the new holds), then what is to stop an old geezer like myself, from taking the 10b you chopped holds in, and chopping more foot holds and handholds to make it 5.6 so me and my buddies can get up it?
You don't have to use the new holds if you don't want to.
BTW, just last night I saw a very interesting thing.
Back in a moment....
BTW, Jeff, sound a little rough there buddy.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jul 11, 2007 - 11:57am PT
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Oh, BTW, I agree with the OP's prediction. Glad I get to climb before it comes true.
GO
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:03pm PT
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couch- just trolling back at wes a bit. Not my style, I know, but he's successfully bugged me. See his most recent post: sure seems to know it all, doesn't he?
Now back to my more normal Jello-like self. Ooommmmmm...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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Goodpoint weschrist.
And all that CO2 you are exhaling...I just visited Glacier NP where all the Glaciers are receeding faster than some of our hairlines due to global warming. Very discouraging to be sure. But exhaling greenhouse gases sure beats the alternative right? Yeah, I am a selfish bastard for thinking that way...
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:36pm PT
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wes, they've mostly all been retroed already.
Does that make you happy, or satisfy your sense of the direction you'd like to "lead" the climbing community in all your omniscient wisdom? Do you think your "leadership" in this matter will allow your followers a more meaningful personal climbing experience?
Runout climbs are not just good self-discovery moments for the first travellers, but for the 10th, or 100th, or 1000th as well. On the other hand, there's not much introspection required for either the 1st or 1,000th ascent of a sport route. Good clean fun and exercise, though, I'll grant you that.
-JelloQuestions
EDIT: AC, wasn't Agent Orange we used to use, it was Napalm.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
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weschrist, I'm still laughing at your "Deal with it" argument, because that is exactly what you are avoiding by arguing that retrobolting is good. You don't want to "deal with it," so your answer is to make sure you don't have to.
You fail to see that many people climb to see just what they can deal with, how far they can push themselves. Not everything in this world needs to be comfortized. But then again, I don't really expect that you will take the time to try and understand that.
My guess is that you don't successfully lead climbs very often. By successful, I mean you don't walk up to a route and climb it from the bottom to the top, without falling. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is that you will grab and hang on a bolt before a crux so that you can compose yourself. I envision you are the type to TR something that's close to your limit before you tie into the sharp end.
This is fine, I don't have anything against folks who like to play the game with all uncertainties taken away. It's just that your narrow view doesn't take into account others who like to play a different game.
If you can retrobolt a route, then you can certainly TR that very same route. In most cases, adding bolts to established climbs is lame, plain and simple.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:42pm PT
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I think that most of the run out bolted routes in disrepair that I know of are poor candidates for retrobolting b/c to retrobolt, you've got to get up there. If more bolts could have been reasonably added on stance, they probably would have. And, if someone has paid their dues to get the skillz that they need to get the rope to the top to add rap bolts, they probably won't want too. The last part might be a good reason to not have free-for-all rebolting parties w/ fixed lines (although many of the bolts I've replaced have been on routes that I could only be on w/ more capable leader.)
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 11, 2007 - 12:48pm PT
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Like a car wreck, you just can't help but look at these bolting threads.
To take that away just because a mob scene of gumbies and assmunches decides to play unilateralism with a bosch doesn't mean they get to make the rules for all of us
In defence of gumbies everywhere, may I say we're not all running around with drills.
There are tons of routes I can't do, but I've never had the desire to manipulate them. Like golsen and GOclimb, I've had the occasion to finally succeed on a route that was above my physical and psychological limits and nothing feels better.
And for the record, there are still climbers who start out trad. OK, not a lot, but they're out there.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jul 11, 2007 - 01:15pm PT
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For the record, I started out in the gym, as did many of the folks I climb with. A traditional mindset is not something you have to be born into with your times. It is also a position that can be appreciated on its own merits.
In other words, new trad climbers will continue to appear. I just don't know if they'll appear as fast as new sport climbers.
GO
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 11, 2007 - 02:01pm PT
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that's usually my "et tu, brute" reasoning there, wesC. A 5.8 climber putting up a 5.8 route will *usually* put in *many* more bolts than a 5.11+ climber putting up an .8 ...
Also hard to define is "style". According to my trad mentors
"only stance" was allowed and "no hanging, ever". Literally you'd be zoomed to the last no-hands whenever you tried to "take". Kinda like "Gerughty, get your foot OFF THAT BOLT!"
Those fellers thought hooks and batt-drills were the most heinous breach of ethics... They were thoroughly disgusted when I started cragging at Cave, completing the metamophoses to the "dark side".
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Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
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Jul 11, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
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"I think there is enough respect to keep classics intact, but respect is something that is earned. Insisting that your generation has the right to define how a chunk of rock gets climbed is disrespectful and ignorant."
you're consistent wes, and a credit to your generation.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2007 - 03:49pm PT
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I did a route with a friend whereon the batteries died mid-third pitch (we were young and careless) and he was forced to finish the lead w/out any more bolts, despite the fact he wanted to place a bolt more than anything else on this planet and a fall would have been at least r rated. The route is otherwise reasonably protected w/ gear and a couple of bolts. Should this route be left as it is for the next 50 years? 100 years? 200 years?
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pcousar
Sport climber
White Salmon, WA
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Jul 11, 2007 - 03:58pm PT
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hey healyje - wes is not here for sympathy for his cause, he's here b/c he likes being an a s s h o l e..
wes says... "because I love watching ya'll get your panties in a wad"
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 11, 2007 - 04:29pm PT
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Should this route be left as it is for the next 50 years?
No. You should go back and remove all the bolts so someone else can have a shot at it.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 11, 2007 - 04:47pm PT
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ontheedge: You and your friend should simply go back and complete the third pitch, in a manner consistent with the rest of the climb. (Assuming, of course, that it was appropriate to the history and ethos of the area.)
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2007 - 05:01pm PT
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The pitch is complete- just without the bolt that would have otherwise been there. No chance of going back, long way away, long time ago and I have mouths to feed. My question was more rhetorical I guess, should this random event forever define a climb as dangerous? Right now someone could just call and say, hey, can I add a bolt? I wouldn't care, but in a long time (I hope) that will be impossible and a larger population of climbers looking at the same amount of limited resources we have now is going to have to decide what to do with such routes. My guess is that bolts will be added. Sort of pointless speculation, but that's what interweb threads generally are.
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jul 11, 2007 - 06:04pm PT
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What about gluing the fallen rocks back up?
Like the now 5-10 Dis-Mantle in the Gunks that used to be 5.8?
Is it ok to take up some Bondo and ground up stone and fill in all the pin scars to their pristine state?
JDF, where are you? How is your Royal Arches log replica coming?
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jul 11, 2007 - 08:24pm PT
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wes says "Unless you climb at a crag within walking distance of your house, you can take stuff your "environmentally oriented" rhetoric." Actually son, my choice is to live within walking distance of my job, and walk to and from work every day. The mountain range I climb in is approachable by roads from below, 20 miles of driving, or the top, 40 miles, it's farther to drive to the top so if practical I approach from the bottom and pay the penalty of walking farther. I try to only drive my car twice a week. I do these things because they are the contributions I can make to saving our environment. And yes, I said "our", that includes you. I realize that you are some 12 or 14 year old flamer and that you don't get it, but I hope that someday you will. The world is not ours to use up, but rather to steward it as best we can. Once again I used the inclusive "we". The world does not revolve around you and the sooner you come to that realization the better off you will be. Or not, the choice is yours.
Michael
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 11, 2007 - 08:53pm PT
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Well, there you have it - over the top for the long slide down to idiocy - a comfortable repose no doubt. This is where some just have to be written off as terminally clueless - neither interested in, nor cabable of, learning. Yet again, I envy surfers in that they are lucky you can't bolt waves - even if they now have to contend with guys like Wes [sport] towing into six foot waves.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 11, 2007 - 09:06pm PT
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NAZIS
now we have completed our slide
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2007 - 09:21pm PT
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Climbers have it a lot better than surfers. So many spots are so impacted that line up ettiquette is gone in some places. Some of that, however, is a result of old timers refusing to let newer and younger surfers into the rotation, as was traditionally the case before crowds increased so much. Resentment builds and at some point somebody says, fek it, I am just gonna drop in on that greedy old guy taking all the waves. That happens enough and the traditional unwritten rules are out the window. This doesn't happen at highly regulated A list spots, but it sure does at others. I think there is a lesson in that and that it's good to think about how to absorb more people w/out sacraficing all traditions.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 11, 2007 - 09:28pm PT
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"Says someone from a generation that ate up way more than their share of natural resources, clear cut the forests, and dumped raw sewage into the oceans. I wouldn't be paying $3.70 per gal or $25 per sheet of plywood if it wasn't for your wasteful ways."
The rebel with the missing clue?
My dear friend weschrist, you yourself probably had a hand in that in your past life like many of us, otherwise you/we/us would knott be suffering the malady you described in your italic quote.
This material world is the prison house of the conditioned soul.
It's time to plan our escape ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 11, 2007 - 09:34pm PT
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Short of towing in (sport surfing) - you still have to pony up the kahones to paddle out into big waves just like your grandmother did - there are no bolts...
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Jul 11, 2007 - 09:41pm PT
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you didnt have to bring my granny into it...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jul 11, 2007 - 11:07pm PT
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Lot's of editing going on around here. I think I'll join the club...
Sorry Atcha - I didn't mean to be an ass... just can't help it sometimes. :-)
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Jul 12, 2007 - 12:15am PT
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Ksolem, nothing "standard setting". Been climbing about 20 years. New routes in AZ, Ut, and CA. Working on some new lines at Donner now.
Compared to the talent here, yea, Im a noob...
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 12, 2007 - 02:00am PT
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weschrist's opinion is worthless, because it's a troll; ie. may or may not be what he really believes/thinks/feels. Ignore him until he's honest.
-JelloDemandsTruth
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jul 12, 2007 - 03:20am PT
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I have added bolts to some of MY very run out "creations" of the past;...and people get pissed off at me and tell me that I should leave things as is. It's a tough call, because ...if you don't know what went on during the first ascent and the "vision" of the F A party;....I think it's best to let the F A party decide.....sometimes you run out of time, energy, bolts, stances, ......broken drill bits, dropped gear, injuries, sickness, darkness;...whatever;....and you don't get to "finish" the route to your ( The F A partie's) satisfaction.......so ya go back and finish the route (meaning add a bolt or two like you wanted to originally.....)....then;....people get pissed, call you a pussy, chop your bolts, say your ruined the route, you are weak, etc...........I say.....go do your OWN routes, and then YOU can decide how the route will end up as. In the end;...it's just a silly game, it's just rock;...not The Olympics or God....people get funny about stuff like this;...ever notice?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 12, 2007 - 04:11pm PT
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Todd, good on you...
I still have yet to hear of anybody doing Gerughty's "original" Dike Route...a classic "retrobolt", agree?...
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Degaine
climber
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Jul 13, 2007 - 05:07am PT
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weschirst wrote: “If good rock is taken up with shitty routes, they WILL get retrobolted whether you like it or not... deal with it.”
I asked you this in another thread and never received a response, where are these square miles of fantastic rock covered in horrendously run out routes to which routes or areas are you referring?
Everyone might be getting their panties in a wad regarding your posts, but you make it sound as if all the rock out there is taken up by these horridly run out routes.
Seriously, there are maybe three or four routes (usually in California) cited in these discussions. HairRaiser Buttress, Bachar Yerian and on occasion South Crack. Two of those are in Tuolumne Meadows.
On that note, most people I climb with (and some are breaking into leading 5.8) go to Tuolumne specifically for run out slab climbing, in addition to the fact that most routes in Tuolumne with a 5.8 or less rating (including those with an R after them) are climbed more than very frequently.
I’ll admit that I’ve only climbed extensively in California, so you could be referring to other areas in the US.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2007 - 11:40am PT
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I can think of lots of routes, in several different states, which would get climbed all the time if they did not involve the very real risk of serious injury. They are seldom done b/c people don't want to break legs or worse. Run out slabs are no big deal once you get used to climbing slabs and are reasonably comfortable at the grade so I don't think south crack is a good example of everyone's willingness to climb r rated climbs.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 13, 2007 - 11:46am PT
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I still have yet to hear of anybody doing Gerughty's "original" Dike Route...
I would love to do the original route, but I just can't tell which bolts are the ones I'm not supposed to clip.
Could somebody please paint the original placements Green and the added crap Red. Thanks...
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scuffy b
climber
Bates Creek
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Jul 13, 2007 - 12:53pm PT
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I have no doubt that Somebody has climbed the Dike Route without
using the added bolts. It's been known (the bolt situation) for
so long. I wouldn't expect obligatory spray.
But yes, you could say it's a classic retrobolt, and one that
climbers have managed to live with. There's quite a bit of gray
in the world.
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| Messages 1 - 82 of total 82 in this topic |
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