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knighTrain
Mountain climber
Yosemite, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 25, 2007 - 06:29pm PT
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Friends of YOSAR has posted new in-depth analysis of the tragic deaths of two Japanese climbers on The Nose of El Capitan during a winter storm, October 2004.
http://www.friendsofyosar.org/rescues/rescues1.html
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jun 25, 2007 - 06:56pm PT
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Wow, good read. The basic gyst is that they really did not do anything wrong, while they could have been more prepared, they were indeed still in the butter zone of preparedness.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 25, 2007 - 07:19pm PT
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Is there, I wonder, a similar analysis of the 20 yr earlier crew those guys eerily doppilgangered?
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kimgraves
Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
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Jun 25, 2007 - 07:35pm PT
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>The basic gist is that they really did not do anything wrong
I don't agree with this - if for not other reason than they died while others didn't. It does no good to say "there was nothing they could have done differently." So what did they NOT do that the other did?
1) they didn't have someone on the ground to communicate with and act as their advocate.
2) they didn't understand that "weather happens". They became hypertermic and lost the use of their hands. When you loose the use of your hands all kinds of errors can happen because your options become very limited. They dropped their haul bag with all the survival gear that could have saved them. Did they have gloves, hats? The report doesn't say.
3) apparently they didn't have enough food to stay fueled in the face of the weather. This is mentioned but only in passing.
4) they were too inexperienced to be climbing in a "marginal" month like September. They didn't understand that September is a marginal month and that mountains generate bad weather all year round.
5) they didn't know when to bail.
I'm sure others will come up with other examples. This is not to "blame the victim." But a post-mortem hopefully means that there is something to be learned from these terrible deaths.
Best, Kim
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Jun 25, 2007 - 07:46pm PT
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4) they were too inexperienced to be climbing in a "marginal" month like September. They didn't understand that September is a marginal month and that mountains generate bad weather all year round
Mmm... I always have considered september as a great month. Could you please explain why Sept is now considered marginal. Thanks.
John
Edit: I just reread the report. They climbed during October.
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kimgraves
Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
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Jun 25, 2007 - 07:50pm PT
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Marginal; September in the mountains. Can be great; can be awful - as they found out. The first part was great. The second killed them. Marginal. Okay?
Edit: As I said, October.... ;-)
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Jun 25, 2007 - 08:38pm PT
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Hi, I just read the report, and to keep the facts straight, it did mention that they didn't have heavy gloves, though I don't remember mention of hat.
They did in fact have food to stay fueled - for approximately 3 days of the weather - in fact they weathered two days of it, and dropped some food, apparently accidentally, which indicates they maybe could have stayed a third, based on fuel alone.
In fact this was October - not September. And for what it's worth the guy seemed to be experienced - they made it to within 3 pitches of the top of El Cap, in epic conditions, for Chrissakes!
And they possibly figured that it would be faster - and safer - to finish up, rather than bail. They were probably right.
The moral is, they pretty much did the right things.
1) better communication with ground folks would've probably saved their lives, but so close to the top, they probably didn't realize just how dangerous the situation was
2) gloves and hats might've saved their lives.
They mostly did the right things. Just the small things they did wrong added up big.
-Aaron
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 25, 2007 - 08:54pm PT
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> 5) they didn't know when to bail.
Kim, would you have bailed from Camp 6 in those conditions?
I don't think there is an easy or obvious answer to that.
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kimgraves
Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
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Jun 25, 2007 - 08:57pm PT
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>They mostly did the right things. Just the small things they did wrong added up big.
I agree with this. The point is that the margin for error can be quite small. And it can all go to sh#t VERY quickly. One minute you're okay/marginal and the next your hands are shutting down. I've been there. October is a "marginal" month. September is a "marginal" month. I've been in 30 degree weather in August on the top of Mt Washington - gloves; hats; belay jackets; industrial plastic bags you can crawl into; GU taped to the top of your helmet; hand warmers in our pockets.
My point is that I won't let these poor souls deaths mean nothing. In their deaths, they've given us a gift. Let's think: what would we do differently?
Best, Kim
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jun 25, 2007 - 09:45pm PT
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Shoulda Coulda Woulda It could have been any of us and in a cosmic way they were part of us. The whole thing is just so sad.
Tom
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Jun 25, 2007 - 10:02pm PT
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Nate, thanks for the post. If you remember, we have discussed this online and offline last year.
I think your post is nicely done, with no blaming. We all have launched with gear/skills/prepareness that could not handle the worst that Nature could deal out, and certainly that storm was the worst that Nature could deal out. Nothing in this thread is meant to demean the climbers; it is meant only to help us learn from this disaster and prevent a repeat.
The SuperTopo community did a tentative analysis previously (see http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=57522&msg=57522#msg57522);, but we specifically held off judgement pending your facts and review. We agree on all points, it would seem.
Communication capabilities, gear appropriate for the worst weather of your season, and a contact on the ground were some conclusions offered. Although they had proper clothes, in the most part, they did not have a platform that could stand a long time in a storm. Most don't take a portaledge, but most don't climb in October. The summer storms are a lot shorter than the fall or winter storms. Full raingear would also be appropriate in many seasons, if not all (I carried a full set for a May ascent of the Nose.)
Thank you for posting your analysis. These threads have a link to your site, as well as a link to John Dill's great essay (on this site under the Big Walls section), so hopefully we will climb wiser and safer. All aspiring wall rats should read them both.
As for our fallen friends and fellow climbers, may they and their families have peace.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 25, 2007 - 10:19pm PT
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Dingus, I am surprised at your comment that the storm was predicted. In two places in the report there are comments that indicate that the storm was not expected.
“A large storm hit the valley around 11:30 that night, October 16. There was little indication before hand of what type of storm this would be. Having left the ground four days earlier, it is unlikely Mariko and Ryiochi expected it.”
“If this particular storm had been predicted earlier, would it have changed things for Mariko and Ryoichi? Possibly, but not likely.”
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murse
Trad climber
Nashville
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Jun 25, 2007 - 10:52pm PT
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That was tough to read. A question that pops in my mind: does YOSAR monitor any of the channels on the little Motorola radios?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 25, 2007 - 10:58pm PT
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Does YOSAR monitor any of the channels on the little Motorola radios?
NO
But if someone is yelling distress and they have one then we use them. General monitoring of FRS is not done by NPS.
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quasitrad
Trad climber
Corvallis, OR
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Jun 26, 2007 - 02:27am PT
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Sad story. It sounds like Camp VI is not the place to be in a rainstorm. It's amazing how fast things can go south when you're stuck in a waterfall.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Jun 26, 2007 - 02:36am PT
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from the read it seems like warm hands were a life or death issue...warmers, socks with holes, gloves, anything might have helped ?
in any case - Damn Sad.
-Tom
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troutboy
Trad climber
Newark, DE
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Jun 26, 2007 - 10:19am PT
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>2) they didn't understand that "weather happens". They became >hypertermic and lost the use of their hands.
I think you mean hypothermic. If they were overheated during a cold storm that would be unusual :-)
TS
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 26, 2007 - 10:41am PT
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DMT is correct as it was predicted.
I knew this storm was going to be a serious problem because of the number of parties on El Cap and their locations on the wall.
They were high on the wall where retreat would most likely be a tough option once it hit.
Being here in the Valley you can almost feel at times when all hell is going to break loose just before it happens.
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nate23
Trad climber
c-ville, virginia
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Jun 26, 2007 - 10:56am PT
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the forecast posted at the camp 4 kiosk did not in any way reflect the severity of the storm even the day before. When they went up i don't believe it showed any weather at all. A great way to cut down on deaths and rescues might be to post better weather there for the majority of people in C4 that aren't wired.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:04pm PT
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I've wavered back and forth on this for a while. Not going to argue or really even talk about it. As we've all learned with NPS, what would be the point, right? In all fairness, I should also state that I haven't read the report in full yet, either. Just skimmed through.
"One thing that didn't get stated in this report:"
Man, being that I was there, on the ground, when it all went down, as well as had a friend on the wall who was in retreat when it hit, there are a lot of things in this report that didn't get stated.
I think the biggest thing, and I've heard this asked a lot in the past, "Why didn't they try to top out or try to bail? WHy did they stop" They were *told* to stay put, by the powers that be and that help would get them in a few hours. Help didn't even start to move for a LONG time after that. "Why didn't they yell?" They *did* yell. People heard them from the meadow. Yelling was pretty critical in some of the things that happened, actually. Now, I don't know everything that happened behind the scenes and what caused help to not start out for an eternity, but a number of things and times in that report are not even close to accurate. I've spoken to at least one other person who felt/witnessed the same things.
I feel the whole thing was poorly handled and a lot was covered up to hide that fact. I want to state, right from the beginning, that I *highly* admire Werner and his mates that are on the ground (or above it) doing the actual work! Those guys are badass! I do over the side rescue work, as well as search and fire, locally, and have the utmost respect for those guys. But persons higher up sometimes really f*#k things up and make some bad choices.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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uh-oh, here we go.
Sickening read.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:30pm PT
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Yosar monitors "Yell-Net"™™™ as do all the meadow jockeys.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
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Well, whoever was manning the PA system was monitoring whether or not they yelled (YellNet), Russ, as he asked them to yell if they heard and understood him when he told them to stay put.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 26, 2007 - 01:00pm PT
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Regarding the predicted weather, I saw the report and even posted a link here in response to someone's question. But I also remember the prediction of rain sort of coming and going. The magnitude of it wasn't clear to me as I watched the reports.
The day that the storm hit I climbed comfortably on the 5OB in a tank top even in the shade. It was gorgeous. I went to a party in Yosemite West that night where guests were unable to return home b/c of the pass closing. It came on stronger than most.
I'm not saying that going up w/ that forcast was prudent, but it really was bluebird until the storm hit suddenly, and they had expected to be down, IIRC, before it came in. Maybe for that reason the SAR report suggested that if they'd known about the forcast, they might not have changed plans?
My bias if I were in that situation, would be to try to go down out of the worst watercourses to wait out the storm, but my recollection of that storm was that there was little warning to restage things before it was coming down in buckets and snowing too.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 26, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
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Since this is supposed to be a collective effort to understand what could be done differently to avoid tragedies like that that befell Ryoichi and Mariko, it seems to me that there is a disconnect between the weather report in the Valley and what it could mean versus what Dingus or Werner saw coming or the better prepared climbers on the Captain were expecting might happen. I would not have thought any thing about it except that Dingus' comments are not reflected in the YOSAR report.
It is all a matter of degree, but I certainly know that predicted storms in October (or September), even those predicted to be mild, can turn into life threatening epics in a hurry. I have no desire to criticize anyone, but misreading the weather is a primary cause of many climbing accidents and preparing for the worst is sensible advise. I expect that Ryoichi and Mariko probably had no idea of the uncertainty.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 26, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
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Great read and analysis. The yearly accidents journal should be considered mandatory "grad school" reading for anyone venturing into the Bigs.
When we did the Nose in Oct. (Halloween partay with Jon Fox) we topped out in a raging blizzard. The last pitch was covered with snow and my partner couldn't pay out rope (it was dark and a knot had "magically" manifested itself in the lead line). I was screaming desperate curses for slack but little line was paid.
...in the swirling flakes I thought about the parties that had frozen right there, icicles and all...took the slack in my teeth and "frictioned" up that last bit, inch by inch.
Lucky. Knowing people died there made a difference in the way I "climbed"...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:13pm PT
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"that storm was well-forecasted more than a week in advance. It was predicted, accurately as it turned out, before they left the ground. "
I firmly disagree. I was considering a wall at the same time and closely checked the forcasts. For Yosemite the chance of percipitation as 20% each day at the time folks were starting their walls. Often in Yosemite, 20% turns out to be nothing, even as stronger weather may be predicted North.
When weather hit, it was radical, not like 20% hardly ever turns out to be.
Sh#t happens, wrong place, wrong time, did some of the wrong things only in hindsight.......
sometimes it's your time
Peace
Karl
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:21pm PT
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"GU taped to the top of your helmet..."
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Karl the storm was predicted in advance. I had pitches fixed on the NA (ha!). It had been predicted for a week, but arived earlier then the predictions.
I was there with the PA SAR guys and their Japannese friend. We could barely hear a yell in the storm. We all listened hard, but all we could make out was what sounded to be a womens yell, which to me was about as louid as the squeak of a mouse.
They hunkered down too long. They should have either rapped or charged the summit at least a day earlier.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:32pm PT
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Great post. Very insightful information! I certainly learned a lot, and hopefully this tragedy can keep the mountains that much safer.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:39pm PT
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www.wunderground.com is another good weather site
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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I can just see the freezing partners sucking the GU out of each other's hair...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
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Here's, something interesting about this that I'll never forget....
First of all, Nefarius, you are wrong that NPS told them to stay put. I was standing right there when the NPS commands were translated through the PA. They (Keith) instructed the translator to tell them "yell if you need a rescue, we are coming" and that is all. They didn't say "stay put, start climbing, start rapping," or anything else.
The interesting thing is that the Japanesse instructions went on for about 2 minutes. I was thinking to myself, "WTF dude that's not what they told you to say!"
He finished with the PA, walked over to me and my buddy, and said..."They won't be getting rescued."
A few minutes later they started climbing off their perch on Camp 6. and SAR was like "oh,shit wtf are they doing!" Keith just walked away shaking his head in dis-belief.
Draw your own conclusions. I am not exagerating or lying, that is exactly what happened. Something you won't find in any SAR report.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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I am just speculating but, maybe the two climbers may have been able to survive if they had stayed put at Camp VI and not tried to climb out. In reading the report, everything seemed to start going wrong once they broke camp and started climbing again. Maybe their sleeping bags were soaked through and they were already freezing, but by starting to climb again, they completely exposed themselves to the elements. It may be argued that moving can help generate body heat, but if conditions are really bad, that might not be the
best alternative.
Of course, this is all Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
Bruce
Edit - Lambone, look at the time of your post. I was posting as you were posting so, no, I did not read your post.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:53pm PT
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^^^^^did you read my post above?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:55pm PT
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Well, maybe we heard different things at different times. I heard them tell them to stay put. Maybe this was at a different point, earlier or later.
Regardless, I remember reading their pseudo report not too long after event, as well as talking to others who were there and the facts simply didn't match the report. Again, the biggest issue was the timeline.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 26, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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Were you standing under that tent with us? There were only a couple of people there...
Unless you know Japanesse you don't know what was actually said to the climbers.
Only one person knows what was said actually to the climbers. And it wasn't "yell if you need a rescue." It was much more then that. He knew the climbers better then any of us, he took them up SFWC and helped them prepare for the wall. He looked me dead in the eye and said "they don't want a rescue."
It's crazy, but I'm sure that is why they started climbing....the look in his eyes told me. It is a fact that there is a cultural difference between American and Japanesse climbers, and I saw it that day.
In the wind and rain that day those climbers might not have understood anything said in the PA, who knows....
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Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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Jun 26, 2007 - 04:23pm PT
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I agree about the cultural differences. We also saw this first hand in Chamonix in 196?. Our first trip here. Met up with four Japanese climbers preparing for the first Japanese ascent of the Eiger North face. Great guys to hang with. Full of life but dedicated to this first ascent, to a fault.They were climbing in all sorts of weather whilst we just hung around town wait for it to clear. Very similar to the Mallory and Irvine era of the British Empire.
Sadly two (or was it three?) die in the attempt on the Eiger, two weeks after we returned to the UK.
Howie.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jun 26, 2007 - 04:24pm PT
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The fact that some of you locals disagree on the weather report should help you to understand how a couple from Japan may not "get it", even if they had the weather report in hand.
I am with dingus, I have a very strong aversion to getting trapped by weather. I think I read the "White Spider" one too many times. At my first attempt at the NIAD I had to talk my partner into retreating after the Great Roof. I know we could have made it, but the uncertainty and the fact that we had no bivvy gear, and didnt know the descent definitely blew my psyche bad enough to throw my dice into another unknown, rapping down that far. One fear overruled the other.
The other interesting thing is that two guys who were there, lambone and nefarious disagree on some events. It is no wonder then that an NPS report may also disagree on some of your recollections.
Despite that, I find this to be very gut wrenching and my thoughts are still with their family members. I have no doubt that SAR did everything possible to help them and they too must have felt very badly at the outcome.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 26, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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Seems to me they ran it too thin. I see no particulars here. Margin is gained through things like forecasts, extra clothing and experience. The most glaring thing I see here is the very low experience:objective ratio. Lots of margin lost there, and not made up for in enough other ways.
All that said, I would have rapped. I think the "over the top" mentality is very often flawed and is very rarely the quickest way down. I've read about far more epics and deaths from going up than going down. Experience often means you've bailed a lot and know how to do it well. A lack of experience (and ego) is what makes people keep going up, IMO.
JLP
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 26, 2007 - 05:49pm PT
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I was tracking the NPS weather recording and Wunderground at the time. Both parrot the NWS forecast for the area. Perhaps the storm wasn't predicted to dip so low. In any case, it's clear that if we disagree, the Japanese wouldn't be expected to know, and there were folks all over the walls so it clearly wasn't a predicted nasty storm from the get go or they wouldn't have swarmed up there.
Agree to disagree, it's history anyway
Peace
Karl
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 26, 2007 - 05:54pm PT
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Dunno what I would have done. I climbed Mescalito in late October and had to sit through what turned out to be somewhat minor rain/snow storm. We just set up the fly and hunkered into the ledge and hoped for the best. It would have been really difficult if not impossible to get down- we were way up. We had tons of storm gear, bivy sacks, food, water, etc, and it seemed that trying to go up or down was far worse than staying put. I can't imagine being out on the face trying to deal with leading or rapping in one of those storms. Yikes. Sad.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 26, 2007 - 06:14pm PT
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Well, for us, we were moving so damn slow the only place we could have gotten a weather report that covered the span of our stay on the wall was a farmers almanac!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 26, 2007 - 06:19pm PT
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Interesting that I can't imagine a pair like this on Mescalito. The access the Nose provides indeed has its dangers. Like the flight of Icarus.
Forecasts - 7 days out is forever and so highly likely to change. None of us would ever get out. Sounds like they were on the slower plan anyway, using Dolt, IV and VI. Few go up there with those camps in mind as plan A. They almost made it under sunny skies. They had wet weather gear.
JLP
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Jun 26, 2007 - 07:30pm PT
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i move so slowly that even a farmer's almanac is cutting it close...
Props to everyone for having the courage to discuss this after the fact - I like that everyone is respectful of the dead, but still unafraid to face reality.
DMT - good points, I don't perceive you as dissing the dead, just bringing up facts, and we can all benefit from them.
I know for damn sure I won't be getting on a wall in October with out watching the weather closely! In Tahoe, when jonesing for snow, we look more at Hawaii and Alaska's weather than the local weather models. Anything further out than 3 days or so for local models is just verbal masturbation, IMO. You gotta scope what's going on elsewhere, a week out, to see what *might* happen, then make an educated decision.
The truth is, they cut the margin too thin and got caught. We've all done it - and gotten away with it - in one form or another. To compound the issue, it sounds like they might have been too proud to accept a rescue. But it sounds like a fairly comprehensive good breakdown of the physical facts of the case - and bless the YOSAR team for saving the ones they did in the face of harm!
Back to weather, one thing that I wanted to clarify, and correct me if I'm wrong, but 20% chance of weather means that precip hits 20% of the forecasted area - it doesn't *necessarily* mean that it will only precip 20% of the time, or that the odds are 2 in 10. Some areas inside a forecasted area always get hit if it's a 20% chance, just depending on where they are and the way the geography shapes the wind, clouds, etc...
Cool thread
-A
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Jun 26, 2007 - 10:53pm PT
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Let's try to keep this on topic, learn a bit from the horrible past, but not throw down on anyone. If any reader has not already read the three threads that were going on during the rescue, you owe it to yourself to check them out before posting a comment:
I think that this was the first thread started on the storm: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=43012&msg=43235#msg43235
Lincoln Else's thread (if you don't know, Linc is our hero, a voice of reason in a storm, and the Climbing Ranger during the rescue): http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=43362&msg=43362#msg43362
Remember, this was one heck of a storm. Tommy Tompson posted this about his experience on El Cap in that storm:
"The storm packed unrelenting fury for nearly 4 continuous days. I felt like we were in a row boat in the middle of north Atlantic hurricane. We had the best ledge money could buy ,a A5 cliff cabana with a 4 season fly. The fly is more of a tent that encompasses the whole ledge. Even though I truly believe that this system attributed to our survival, more than once Erik and I thought the winds were going shred it apart right in front of our eyes. We had not a single dry item to our name." (Full thread here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/forum.html?topic_id=&m=45776);
This thread was started after the storm, when a bit more data was known. The must-read entry is from Linc, scroll down to Feb 2, 2005 1:43 PM. He recounts what it felt like to try to ski in during to storm to the top of El Cap to try to rescue the climbers: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=57522&msg=59013#msg59013
Here is a picture that says it all:
The Captain, the day after the storm
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 26, 2007 - 11:08pm PT
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I remember that storm, and I think it hit much harder than expected... perhaps Dingus had legitimately better information and experience than the rest of us. But the reports on the NWS site didn't predict a severe storm, and that storm was severe.
Now that being said, going up on a wall with that weather prediction I would have been prepared for the worst. The only other way to do it is to race the storm and make sure you were off before it got serious.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda...
tragedy no matter what.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 26, 2007 - 11:55pm PT
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Rescues can also be dangerous to the rescuers. The first (?) climber fatality on El Capitan was Jim Madsen, in October 1968. Some climbers were high on the Dihedral in a "huge storm" (Roper). There was no communication with them, and it was feared they were hypothermic or worse. Madsen and other climbers hiked to the top, planning to rappel to their friends. He rappelled off the end of his rope. The climbers had holed up deep in a slot, and were ok.
Rescuers do extraordinary things - when there's a chance of rescuing a live person.
Some allowance also must be made for the "fog of rescue". A rescue has parallels with military combat - fairly high risk, communication challenges, incomplete information, environmental issues, training and equipment, and so on. With 20:20 hindsight, it always looks different - which is why teams have debriefings, and more.
My father was with the Mountain Rescue Group here for years, and was seriously hurt in a search in 1966. A search for someone who was never found. It is believed the person simply wanted to disappear, and start over somewhere else.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:08am PT
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You can't trust that NOAA internet weather report for Yosemite Valley nor any of those other internet weather sites. They are not very accurate.
Many times the fire guys give a totally different report than any of those sites.
I don't know where Yosemite Fire gets theirs but they have very accurate weather reports and forecasts.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:26am PT
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Another point (my own opinion and not Yosar or NPS)
The Japanese climbers royally screwed up.
They should have hunkered down or if it was me I wold have rappelled like a psycho as fast as I could. On the Nose you can retreat from Camp 6 to at least Dolt tower very quickly or all the way to the ground.
The Japanese had the time to do that.
It's wicked dangerous to be exposed high up on El Cap in storm conditions that were encountered during that time. Wet rain will suck the life out of you in no time.
I've been exposed on half dome in a deluge and became hypodermic and most of my teeth were loose in my gums from them chattering for such a prolonged period. Luckily we topped out.
On El Cap me and Shipley got caught in a very bad deluge and had to retreat one pitch lower to survive.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:55am PT
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The Japanese climbers royally screwed up.
They should have hunkered down or if it was me I wold have rappelled like a psycho as fast as I could. On the Nose you can retreat from Camp 6 to at least Dolt tower very quickly or all the way to the ground.
The Japanese had the time to do that.
Werner I couldn't agree more. My first thought about the 2 Japanese after all the excitment settled down was why did they not rapp after that first wet night? I wonder if this was ever discused between them and if so why it was ruled out.
May they rest in peace!
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Jun 27, 2007 - 12:32pm PT
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Looking at the whole scenario I don't see anything they did really obviously wrong - except drop their haul bag - that was it, all over.
Everything else is a judgment call and I could see myself making the same set of decisions - wrong decisions granted, but that is 20/20 hind sight.
People like Werner have been on that route (how many times?) so rapping may seem easy and straight forward. But first time down I would be nervous. Can you find bolt anchors buried in a waterfall somewhere out on the face?, What if rope gets stuck? etc. lots of unknowns. and meanwhile you are getting wetter and colder each passing minute.
I've heard camp 5 is much more hospitable in a storm. Maybe going down to there would have been a good call. But they probably didn't know that.
One thing I can say, my haul bag keeps getting heavier every story like this I read.
and hey, what's the absolute most bomber rain gear you can get? Seems like everything these days is Gortex and I don't know if that will work in multi-day storm?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 27, 2007 - 01:42pm PT
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There was no rain that morning when they could have rapped.
They could have rapped to the great roof and got underneath it.
The main thing is when you are doing a wall always be on the look out for possible protected bivy spots and escape hatches that can get you out of the elements.
I always looked for those as a "just in case factor" and made mental notes in my mind.
Sometimes you can just retreat to them if they are there or if needed climb up to them.
People need to factor all the options before all hell breaks loose.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 27, 2007 - 02:21pm PT
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"People like Werner have been on that route (how many times?) so rapping may seem easy and straight forward."
I think my point would be - ideally, someone who gets on the Nose has done so many raps and bails off other big routes that going down the Nose would be a digestable option.
"Looking at the whole scenario I don't see anything they did really obviously wrong"
...except get in WAY over their head!
"everything these days is Gortex"
They are not all equal. I have an XCR jacket thay weighs maybe 2 lbs and I have yet to get wet in it. Worst case is taking it off to shake out condensation. Cloths underneath are usually more or less dry. I also have a very light goretex-like lined wind jacket I wore just this AM (bike to work day...) that can handle maybe 1/2-1 hour of rain. I have 2-3 other goretex jackets in between. I used to use a PVC rain jacket on walls, but quickly learned there are two ways you can get wet and be miserable - from the inside and from the outside.
Given long enough in any storm with any gear, you will get wet. That's where the wool and synthetics come in, and maybe a sponge.
JLP
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salbrecher
Mountain climber
vancouver
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Jun 30, 2007 - 06:33pm PT
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Just to add/confirm a few things that Lambone said, I was with Lambone under the YOSAR tent in the meadows the day YOSAR yelled up on the loudspeaker.
I recall hearing The Japanese girl yell down when asked if they wanted a rescue. Contrary to this, after the japanese man had yelled up on the loudspeaker he told us something to the effect (i can't remember exactly) that "Japanese would never ask for a rescue".
YOSAR did say that a rescue was coming but i'm not sure if they said to stay put or not. I remember wondering why they had said that a rescue was coming (not sure of the exact time it was yelled up but before noon) when no rescue got to them till the next morning when they were dead. In my opinion, if i were the climbers on the nose i would have been under the impression that the rescue was coming sooner based on what was told to be yelled up. Perhaps even motivating me to start climbing up and either top out or get rescued trying. After waiting 2 days and hearing a rescue was coming i would have been least likely to rap down.
Climbing a pitch or 2 in freezing rain or waterfall is one thing, (i'm sure more than a few of us here have done that) and it's often easy enough to stay warm while continually moving. But don't underestimate what a few days of physically demanding climbing, plus rationing water and food will do to make you sooooooooooo much more susceptible to the cold.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Jun 30, 2007 - 08:11pm PT
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I heard somewhere, can't remember where, that accidents generally can't be traced back to one single factor but rather a chain of events that when linked together cause the event. Break a link in the chain and the outcome changes. The links are fairly obvious. Relatively weak and inexperienced climbing team, potentially dangerous season to climb in, lack of knowledge of local weather patterns, cultural/language barriers, unusually severe (though not atypical) storm, bad location on route, dropping haul bag and gear, decision to continue climbing rather than hunkering down. The what ifs are endless...What if they had been on the route a month earlier? A link broken. What if they were more experienced and had climbed faster? A link broken. What if the storm had been a fraction less severe? A link broken. The bottom line is they had a bit of bad luck that they couldn't overcome. Who hasn't been in a similar situation and but for a little luck--and/or experience--by the skin of their teeth managed to pull through? I am sure there have been less experienced, less prepared climbers who have climbed the Nose countless times with no problem. It seems to me a culmination of a lot of little mistakes combined with a bit of bad luck. Sad, sad , sad...
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Bobo
Trad climber
San Francisco
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I was is in the Valley that weekend and I recall this storm had been predicted well in advance. Having been camping in the valley for some time before they may have not heard about it.
I was also in the valley that weekend 20 years earlier when some Japanese climber died on the same route and I watched the triple rescue on El Cap. That storm had NOT been predicted and took everyone by surprise.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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"You can't trust that NOAA internet weather report for Yosemite Valley nor any of those other internet weather sites. They are not very accurate.
Many times the fire guys give a totally different report than any of those sites.
I don't know where Yosemite Fire gets theirs but they have very accurate weather reports and forecasts."
Werner, is there a way to get the Yosemite Fire forecast off the internet?
If not, what is the best Yosemite weather forecast that you can get on the internet? The underground.com that Dingus mentioned?
Better forecast from the park would be great, but with their level of paranoi, every posted forecast always ends with at least a "chance of thunderstorms" whether there is a 20% chance or a 2% chance. After a while, you learn to shrug it off.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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"Although kimgraves got railed for it, I second her opinion - the fact that they didn't survive means that they did do some things wrong"
They took a calculated risk to climb a big wall.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Dude, you have got to be kidding me.
"YOSAR comprised just a small part of the total number of capable climbers in the valley at the time. It seems the response of the climbing community at large could have been much better."
BTW-Two climbers got plucked off the Shield Headwall on the first day of the storm by their friends in Camp 4. They hiked ropes in up the East Ledges and rapped down the headwall.
But once it was apparent that people needed to be plucked the conditions were horrible man, and YOSAR was on it. One guy (or two) can't do this alone. It takes a mobilized team effort. YOSAR is the best qualified for such a miserable task. For amatures it would have been a sucide mission, and I can garuantee that the YOSAR people would have been against it.
We were standing in the meadow getting totally hammered, soaked and freezing. The road to the trailhead for the shortest approach(120 to Tioga) was closed under snow, and YOSAR had to go in in heavy equipment.
By the time people (like Dave Turner) and the Japanesse were calling for a rescue, it took the very capable rescuers all night to slog into the summit through waist deep snow. No one heard any cries for a rescue from them before a bull-horn call was made, even Dave who was only a few hunderd feet away. They died that night.
Of course I wanted to help, as did we all. Did I have my full-on winter mountaineering kit with me...NO. You'd need gaiters, mits, plastic boots, mega down, and bombproof gor-tex, stoves, bags, basecamp tent, etc to stay somewhat un-hypothermic. Plus hundreds of feet of rope.
"First off the climbers that knew of other parties on the rock should have at least kept an eye on things and let YOSAR know."
I saw Keith Lober scoping in the Meadow the day before the contact was made. We talked with him about parties on the wall and I told him I saw lights high on the Nose at the beginning of the storm.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I don't think random non-yosar climbers should undertake rescue operations on El Cap- that's crazy. It's one thing to lend a hand if you are right there (we helped a party get off once) but a whole other matter to actually try to rescue someone in full on conditions. I am sure everyone involved did the best that they could do- they have proven that again and again through the years.
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Gene
climber
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Although self sufficiency, individually and as a community, is a worthy goal, any solution needs to solve more problems than it creates. Non-trained rock monkeys playing YOSAR is not a solution in storm conditions.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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"...but can someone like Werner or Link please explain to us why nobody was up there sooner to save those poor buggers? The weather was likely to poor to fly the helicopter, but couldn't some YOSAR guys have gotten up there somehow? Jugging the East Ledges? Hiking the Falls Trail? Coming in from Tamarack Flat?
Well, I am definately NOT someone like Werner or Link. But I can tell you that I asked this same question in previous threads. First, the first YOSAR team did hike in from Tammarack Flat. Link led the charge through waist deep heavy snow, (he gave us all a debriefing at Sunday morning coffe after the tragedy), he said it was one of the hardest things he's done and it took them all night.
I won't speak for Werner and Link here, but basicaly what they answered, "We are not going to initiate rescues until someone asks for it. And unfortunately we wern't %100 sure there was a team in trouble until too late." (quote highly paraphrased from memory)
I was the person who told Keith first that I though somebody was still on the Nose on the first day of the storm. I rolled into the valley the evening the storm hit and saw the lights at Camp 6. The next day I climbed in the rain with "Salbrecher" (we are PNW climbers), we got down and were looking at the wall and Kieth came up and started scoping. We takled to him about who we saw, he jumped in his truck and took off.
You can't really see camp 6 from the Meadow, you need a better vantage point farther back, so we figured that's where he was heading. Two days later we saw rangers tracking down friends of the Japanesse team in the Lodge. Why they waited to try to find more info on the party I am not sure.
Basicaly I was told here to STFU and stop second guessing YOSAR, so I deleted all my posts on that old thread.
As far as someone just "running up the east ledges with some ropes to get them..."
I think this mindset really trivializes the situation. First of all East Ledges was a waterfall covered in ice and snow. What if those Japanesse were not capable of jugging out. Then they'd need to be hauled up. Not just a quick job for a couple of average (or even superhuman) climbers.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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cliffhanger, "25 - 50% of climbers should own a spotting scope to help out in gathering information."
I have some binocs does that count? While your attempt at getting climbers to look out after one another is noble, it really is a dog eat dog world out there. Throughout all life there is something very important to keep in mind.
If you cannot take care of your own self, you have zero chance of being to help someone else. Blaming anyone other than the climbers for this misfortune is out of line IMHO.
I wasnt there for this incident, but I have left the valley while some friends were up high in a storm. It is not a nice thing to be thinking about, but they themselves put them there. Nobody else...
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WBraun
climber
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Contrary to common knowledge the Japanese climbers were being tracked and watch up until the storm.
Now! If no one is yelling or asking for assistance then there will be no Yosar response.
Lambone - me and Lober were in the meadow checking the Japanese at 7 am that morning during the short break in the storm, way before you even got up, I bet.
Lober yelled up for a response and there were no cries for help at that time. You (Lambone) showed up much later in the day when things were getting "hot". From this point in time is where your observations of Yosar's strategy is being observed.
There is an underlining consciousness trying to second guess Yosar's strategy by some individuals even if they don't admit it they are thinking it subconsciously.
Easy to do now, later or even considering, now - "years later".
So let me re-emphasize! If no one is asking for assistance then there will be NO response. There was no request from the Japanese until it was too late.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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There are a couple of different things going on in this thread which are getting mixed up and causing some animosity among posters.
The first is that Yosemite is an amazing place where we are free to climb with few restrictions. The Park Service is pretty straight foward with the fact that they are not responsible for us, we are responsible for ourselves. Climbing is not regulated and we pretty much are on our own to make decisions on what, where, how and when to climb.
That's pretty amazing in my mind.
The second thing is that neither YOSAR, nor the Park Service, nor any of us, can read the minds of climbers on a climb. Are they in trouble or are they coping? They wait for some sign from the climbers before initiating a rescue. This is in keeping with the idea that climbers take on the responsibility for their own safety. But inspite of that, YOSAR is there to assist in rescuing teams in trouble who ask for rescue.
The fact that the Japanese climbers died is a terrible tragedy from which we can all learn:
1) Rescue by YOSAR is not guaranteed;
2) One must weigh the risks of choices being made before going up on the wall carefully as there are severe consequences possible, e.g. going fast and light, racing the weather, etc;
3) We can be as prepared as possible but still not be able to anticipate all of the things that can go wrong. As someone wrote above, these sorts of accidents are more often the result of a chain of events going wrong rather than one catastrophic thing happening.
We climbers have the freedom to make decisions ourselves, free from regulation. The consequences of making bad decisions are ours to deal with. Sometimes, YOSAR can help bail us out, but we cannot, nor should we expect that they will always be able to help.
I was saddened when I learned of the deaths of these climbers; I still am. But what is done is done, we can't get them back. They do provided yet another lesson for us to learn how we might avoid putting ourselves in a bad way.
That is their legacy to us. Not the endless and unanswerable "what if's"
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Gene
climber
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Well said, Ed.
Thanks.
GM
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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For a godless scientist that guy is purty darn spiritual.
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scabang
climber
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2 things: i drive a bus in there everyday and believe me if shite weather was forecast i would have been prepared. As it happens i spent ages untangling "last year's chains" much to the chagrin of the early mourning (sic) commuters. Secondly, and most sickeningly, xenophobia (perhaps ignorance is more applicable) reigned supreme. Japs? Oh, they probably didn't know what the phuck they were doing up there was the common assumption. 2 Yanks? Different story - oh what a tragedy.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Werner,
You may have missed it, but my post were replying to somebody who basically posted "why din't some climbers just go up there and get them...and why didn't Yosar get them sooner, or were alerted to them sooner."
He has since deleted his posts, so mine now seem kind of stupid and out of context.
If you read my post I don't think it's far off from what you are saying. Sorry if it seems I was second guessing you guys. I was just trying to explain to the clueless poster that yeah, people did know they were up there, and yeah they didn't ask for help until the last day.
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