Discussion Topic |
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
real eyes realize real life
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 18, 2007 - 12:32am PT
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first of all, ekat if it's not okay for me to post your post just holla @ your girl. i'll take it down.
okay, now guys. what do you think about the half dome cables? i agree that it would be a good idea to move them over... except what do you do when THAT rock gets worn? can you put it back in the other spot since it would have been exposed to mechanical weathering for a long time, then keep switching?
OR would it be a good idea to remove them altogther?
there is also anastasia's idea about clipping IN. the only thing i see w/that is how do you deal with the liability of instructing / ensuring it's being done properly? or maybe it would be better to make people take the responsibility of doing it themselves?
and if you do clip in, how do you do it so it doesn't kill your internal organs if you DO fall? i believe there is a thread about this where - ricardo i think? - gave a great suggestion on how to do it properly....
what are everyone's thoughts on this?
and here's eKaterianaCallerinaCoolita's idea:
"Great Scott!
I've started this post THREE TIMES and deleted all of them. . . .
First off:
Peace to the family and friends of the departed.
AND. . .
This might not be the best place to say this. . . but. . .
THOSE CABLES NEED TO BE MOVED!
All that would have to be done is to move ONE cable three feet to the right or the left of the other one. . . so FRESH rock was in the path.
AND. . .
LIMIT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ALLOWED *UP* THERE PER DAY! (would be hard to limit the number of downclimbers, though, considering. . . the obvious. . . )
Pretty simple!
For cry-y-y-y-y-y-y--y-yy-ing out loud!
The permit system works all over the world!
The crowds create FRICKING HAVOC!
Please - somebody make some changes!
If that takes people, such as myownself, to become active in this change, then SO BE IT. . . let's figure out a way to put the magic back into the cables on Half Dome!
They lost their magic many, many years ago and nobody's taken the time to tell the rest of the world how bad the whole thing is!
We're a smart group. . . maybe we can instigate change.
Maybe we should MAKE A DIFFERENCE!
?
eKatBeenThereIt'sNotAPrettySight!"
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
real eyes realize real life
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 12:42am PT
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might be good for YM"go*climb*a*rock*S but what about broke people who should also be able to experience the summit?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:46am PT
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Plenty of broke people summit Half Dome.
We call these broke people "DirtBags" and they are keeping a fine mountaineering tradition.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
real eyes realize real life
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 12:48am PT
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why *shouldn't* they?
grand views in nature commonly inspire people to achieve higher summits in life.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:49am PT
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Moved my post from the other thread, where it was off-topic:
===
Blinny, what problem are you trying to solve?
Prevent deaths? We don't know what happened, and the route may have had nothing to do it. Don't let facts get in the way of your passion!
And what is this obsession with trying to change nature to make things sufficiently convenient for us?
There is only one Half-Dome. You want to drill a whole bunch of more holes in it, to make it more convenient?
Why not rely on personal responsibility, something Americans often don't believe in! Like, you have to have climbing shoes and clip-in set-up. You could rent the things like a bowling alley. You could have optional classes. Perhaps provide some income for *climbers*. This would be a great opportunity for wilderness education.
However, to think that it will make things faster is ridiculous. Hundreds of people who have never handled gear, fumbling while in fear of their lives? Yeah, that is why protected climbing is so much faster than free climbing. (NOT)
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:54am PT
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um.. what did I miss? did something happen?
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Jude Bischoff
Ice climber
Palm Springs
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:03am PT
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People like to walk outside the cables to avoid the slow pokes. That is where many of the accidents happen. There seems to be more this year than ever before.
I agree with Ken M. on the respect of personal responsibility.
Yosemite Mountaineering could get an income stream from guiding tourists up the cables for a fee and renting the proper clip in Via Ferrata system. Post guides and gear at the base of the cables.
It's a blessing people have to earn their way to the top and they have not touristed it out with a tram and restaurant.
Locker's new income stream: The 5 minute resole at the base of the cables using pine pitch and sticky rubber.
Edit
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 01:05am PT
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oh for crying out loud. yea, let's make it something only the ones who can pay for guiding and all that crap (mainly middle class white folks) can afford.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:10am PT
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A good question, even to us non-yosies. I think that the question to answer first is whether it's main designation is historical, or a maintainable fixture. Although the cable route is certainly both, its moving (or changing) cannot be decided upon until the "powers that be" decide (public input period?) what the cable route represents to Yosemite and the National Park Service. One could argue that it's removal gets rid of a reocurring hazard and that the safety of the public outweighs the benefits that it may bring.
Closing caves, restricting geyser zones, pulling vintage buses from service, and "retiring" fixtures happens on a routine basis; and, generally, the public forgets shortly thereafter.
My question to the forum: How does the removal hurt climbers ? For instance, is it the "standard" descent, the only descent, or just the fastest descent for Half Dome routes?
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 01:20am PT
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i can't think irghte now. plus "foreigners" teach us cool stuff :)
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:26am PT
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(Copy paste from other thread)
I was told that no one ever perished on the cables simply due to falling (i.e. no medical or severe weather issues) till about a year ago. Is this correct?
The cables are a route. In fact, they (in modified form) are one of the first big rock routes in Yosemite.
From Roper:
"The first ascent of the dome was made by George Anderson in October 1875. By drilling holes for ludicrously large iron spikes, he was able to work his way up the 46 degree slope of the east face. Today an excellent trail winds its way eight miles to the base of this face; cables then lead to the summit. The face can be climbed without using the cables (class 5)."
When you climb the cables, you are in that moment a climber, IMO. It's a big deal for a lot of people to take on both the physical and mental challenge of it.
If you want "regular people" to respect our choices to rope up or not as climbers, maybe we need to respect their choices on the cables too.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 01:34am PT
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anotha copy/pate from thread other one:
"The cables are a route. In fact, they (in modified form), are one of the first big rock routes in Yosemite."
oh. i stand corected. thank you : )
and yea, i agree on the respect thang...
okay doodz. peac eout,
t*R :)
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 01:35am PT
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" '(mainly middle class white folks)'...
and up...
sad but true... "
yea... it's dumb. let's think about it l8tr, 2 depress 4 now.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:59am PT
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More go down than up.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 02:01am PT
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like cartwheeling off? LOL
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 18, 2007 - 02:01am PT
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I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that it's good that we're discussing it. For the simple reason that NPS risk and land managers may be discussing this, and we'd better be ready to respond. Whatever they might do would affect us.
There are many factors to consider - cost, history, access, safety, and so on. But it seems to me that climbers and hikers have much the same interest here - the vast majority would probably prefer something like the status quo, perhaps with modest changes. Those might include rerouting the cables, having an "up" and a "down" lane, more safety oriented signage, adding steps, or setting it so a via ferrata setup can be used. (Rentals at mountain shop, naturally.)
The NPS managers have to balance many factors, and might rather not do anything. It would take a lot of study and discussion and public input, media scrutiny, and maybe even lawsuits, before they made any change. They probably track usage and accidents fairly closely, and those are key factors in deciding whether to look at this, or do anything.
I hiked up and down Half Dome for the first time ever on a Saturday last September. I've never done anything quite like it - a real via ferrata. It was astonishing and sometimes frightening to see what was going on.
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pro_alien
Sport climber
Zurich, Switzerland
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Jun 18, 2007 - 02:21am PT
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There are many "via ferrata" routes in Europe. They generally require the use of proper gear (Y lanyard). Most of them are designed so the traffic only goes in one direction (e.g. go down by a hiking trail).
For a heavily visited route like the Half Dome cables, I think the only safe solution would be to have double cables (up and down), and require the use of Y lanyards. With a little creative metalwork double cables should not require double holes.
And of course a sign that says
You
Will
DIE!
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pro_alien
Sport climber
Zurich, Switzerland
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Jun 18, 2007 - 06:54am PT
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Lanyards like in http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils?Conseil=45&Activite=28
They include an energy absorber (e.g. rope passing through a special plate) to limit the peak load when falling onto a hard anchor point (there is no dynamic rope to limit the shock load, so the impact force would otherwise be dissipated by the weakest link, the human body).
Tried a via ferrata in Switzerland once. Mildly entertaining, I will stick to climbing for real entertainment. Still, if you want to get a bunch of tourons up and down a rock in relative safety, this is the way to go.
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eeh
climber
East Side
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:03pm PT
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I hiked Half Dome a few years when I had very few rock climbs under my belt and didn't find it very scary or dangerous. If a hiker gets to the base of the cables and doesn't feel confident to go all the way, well, then they should just turn around. Why does everything in national parks have to be accessable to abosolutely every goober and gaper out there? Those cables have been there a long time and there have been very few injuries that I am aware of. It's just like crossing the road - you might get hit by a car so if you aren't willing to take the risk, don't cross the road.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:10pm PT
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It's a real problem that there's two-way traffic on those cables.
The first time I saw them I was coming down from Snake Dike. At that time I was amazed that people didn't die there daily. It was a total zoo, with many folks on the "route" (or bowling alley?) at the same time.
I was a bit gripped going down and wondered about the average hiker who made the summit. With going down so much harder than going up, the folks who are scared when they go up must have a real time going down.
That the NPS has just had a stack of gloves there, and nothing else, mystifies me. Being in America, I thought "Liability!" all the way. Shoot, if a guy can sue for a leaky john at the top of Glacier Point, it's not too hard to imagine a case against the HD cables.
Add a third cable to make it a two-way trail and a sign saying proper climbing gear is required (ala via ferrata). This would make it safer and limit liability for those without gear.
The Village People would like this (more sales of climbing gear!) and the folks getting to the top would probably like it too (with the gear, they'd feel like they were actually climbing).
The climb is serious; keeping it a free-for-all spells trouble.
EDIT: Now, who's up for hand-drilling 1" holes for the third cable?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
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One post on another site linked to, said the guy dropped his water bottle, went to reach for it, and slipped. We can't protect people from themselves. Otherwise we'd have to close every trail near a cliff.
Moving the cables is a bad idea. It will just get worn smooth again, then what? Move them again and again?
Maybe they could use a sandblaster or something to roughen it up yearly. Or double the number of board steps.
Lanyards available for rent (if possible) or for sale at the Mtn Shop and encouraged by the NPS is a good idea. But they should not be required. What's next? No free soloing, no climbing without a guide?
Yeah it's a zoo up there. Hundreds of people. But I can hold on the cables with gloved hands and be perfectly fine, last time I skied down (sliding on my feet) holding the cables. While some people can barely move up there they are so panic stricken. Ane some people are stupid and dangerouse. And some people make unfortuneate mistakes.
That is one of the best experiences many people will ever have. Removing the cables because a few people made mistakes is a terrbile idea IMO.
The only thing that needs to be changed is the public should be made aware that they should use lanyards if needed, and they should take a look at maintaining the surface or adding steps. THAT'S IT!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:39pm PT
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I was wondering if anyone has hard information on the cables, and their use. When they were placed, by who, with what rationale. Subsequent work and improvements. Usage then and now. Accidents. NPS policies.
It would also be interesting to know how closely (if at all) the cables correspond with Anderson's route, and how (if at all) people got up Half Dome between the demise of that, and the time the cables were placed.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
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Like it or not, Anderson's cable ladder is a very historic route to the major summit. Take it down and people will try anything to get back up there. Take this brave soul for instance.
I think YOSAR would vastly prefer the status quo to meatballs with every course! Pardon my black humor, but folks are going to keep trying with widely varying consequences. You can't protect people from themselves beyond duty to inform. IMO
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andanother
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:08pm PT
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I think a much more logical solution is to restrict people from going outdoors at all.
Yeah, people die from slipping off the cables. They're dangerous.
But so is the SUN!!!! The hike to the top of Half Dome takes most of a day. And during most of that time, you are exposed to the sun's evil rays. Skin cancer kills MANY more people each year. The cables seem insignificant when you consider the bigger picture.
And what about alien abductions? Do you think those trees are going to protect you from their tractor beams?
And speaking of trees, those things can fall down you know! If we're going to continue to allow people to hike to Half Dome, we NEED to cut down all those trees! That's an accident waiting to happen! Do you know how many people die each year from falling trees?!?!?!
It's pretty obvious that human beings can't take responsibilty for themselves. That's why they created religions.
So, I think we should build a series of tunnels everywhere. People shouldn't be driving automobiles anyway. Automobiles KILL!!!!!!
Stay indoors! Be afraid! Dumb down everything to accomodate the lowest common denominator!
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:21pm PT
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More regulation is not hte answer. How many climbers have gone up or down the cables without via ferrata equipment?
Oh, thats right, since we are technical climbers the rules dont apply to us? Right? Wrong. How would you like to have to haul via ferrata leashes up a tech route on Half Dome because that was the reg?
The other thing? Regs here could lead to regs elsewhere. I can hear it now, "Clearly from the NPS Viewpoint, Snakedike is a very unprotected route and must be altered to be safe." Perhaps it sounds draconian; however, it is a progression and acceptance of loss of freedoms when the man tells you HOW to climb something.
I am saddened about this; however, I dont see more regs as being a favourable result, especially for climbers. Face it, if you were going to take your Grandma up there you would probably think of and bring some method to help her get safely down and up the thing.
RIP and my thoughts are with the victims families and friends.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 03:25pm PT
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You all are becoming drama queens about this. Leave the cables alone!
Or you can have this if you want instead.
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andanother
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 03:35pm PT
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Those colors wouldn't really mesh with granite tones, thus detracting from the "wilderness experience".
Can I get that in "slate gray" or similar?
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Jun 18, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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Leave the cables alone.
Be prepared, and careful.
Like any other peak or mountain or ravine or whatever - danger is inherent, no matter how many cables are up there.
Don't move them and smooth out another area.
Don't regulate them.
-Aaron
ps: hell, just take them out. if you want to look off the top, then you must learn the skills to get up there. that's the way it is everywhere, on every peak! right now the skills necessary include hiking on a slippery slope without falling - you don't have the skill, you can't do it! try to do it w/o the skill, you might die.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 18, 2007 - 03:48pm PT
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I bet nobody blocks 46 on the cables.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Jun 18, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
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Those economically disadvantaged folks can't afford to drive there either. Let's give them free gasoline, park entrance, and campsites too.
Now, let's talk about handicap access. We're gonna need the mother of all ramps.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 04:48pm PT
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I'm saddened to hear of the accident, and I wish the best for the grieving family and friends.
With that said, I completely take the side of personal responsibility on this one. I went up and down the cables once, about five years ago. My gf at the time didn't feel comfortable, and i didn't pressure her, so she waited below. What's wrong with that?
I do not believe the cables should be moved or added to, though if they want to add another lane, that's up to the Park Service to decide, and I don't think it would be terrible if they did.
But I do think it would be terrible if a lot of people started doing it with via-ferrata gear. Put gear on people, and they start behaving more recklessly. If the via-ferrata gear isn't required, then you'll have falling hikers knocking people off as they slip down to the next post. That would be a terrible outcome, and I believe it would happen with some frequency.
GO
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 18, 2007 - 05:08pm PT
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Why stop there?
How about two lanes going up and one down?
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jaystone
Trad climber
EDH, Ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 05:16pm PT
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First, my condolences to friends and family.
I descended the cables a little over a month ago coming down from Snake Dike. I don't think they should be altered to accommodate the *masses*.
But, I find the lack of warning interesting. I did a couple miles up and down the Angel Bright Trail in GCNP with my son last year. The message from the park was plain as day - YOU CAN DIE! This was all over various web sites, publications, and signs at the trailhead in the village.
http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/hike-smart.htm
Although the statistics in the canyon at some point forced their hand, pro-actively, it may not be a bad idea to place a sign at the start of the cables simply stating...YOU CAN DIE!
This will not *solve* anything, but could serve as a reminder of the risk and put people on alert. A few memorials for those who have perished could also help remind people it is not a set of stairs and the consequence can easily be of highest order.
IMO, the public tends to minimize the risk associated with activities in National Parks because they feel they are protected from anything *really* dangerous.
Namaste!
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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"We're gonna need the mother of all ramps..."
why put in a ramp when you could put in a super slide?!
since the valley is more like an amusement park anyways. ugh.
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BobT
Social climber
Pleasanton, CA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 05:29pm PT
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I do not do technical climbing. I love taking class 2 and class 3 routes to beautiful places and mountain tops, and I can cope with an occasional class 4 move, but I'm guessing that's the most I'll do for the rest of my life. I have been up and down the cables, and I have mixed feelings about their existence.
The National Park Service over 30 years ago decided to try to make things more "natural," and removed or stopped many things. There is no more firefall in Yosemite. There are no more cables up the north face of Longs Peak (although people can still get to the top in the summer without a technical climb via the Keyhole Route even if there is a lot of class 3 terrain and what many describe as a class 4 move). The NPS no longer paints "fried eggs" on routes. Various things, however, were left, like the cables at Half Dome. I'm not sure how the NPS decided what was left and what was removed, but there can be no doubt that the NPS would not make the decision to install cables today if they weren't already up.
Climbing Half Dome is a great experience for those in shape to do it and those who won't panic on the cables.
But why is it essential to have such an experience available? There are so many beautiful places in the world to see that don't require technical climbs or artificial aids for those who aren't climbers. There are many beautiful places that require technical climbs for which the NPS has not installed aids for non-climbers. There are places in the park that are just as beautiful, easier to go to, and more pleasant to go to, why isn't it good enough for us non-climbers to have those?
If you remove the cables, I don't think you'll find non-climbers trying to go up anyway. It would end Half Dome as a great attraction for non-climbers, although maybe it would inspire a few more people to take up climbing. I would almost certainly never go to the top of Half Dome again. It would not break my heart. I would not be mad that Half Dome is left only to climbers and that regular old hikers like me would be left in the cold -- if I really want to get to the top of a place like Half Dome, then I can become a climber. If God meant for non-climbers like me to get to the top, it wouldn't have been made so steep and smooth.
On the other hand, I don't think it is horrible if the cables are left up, either. They have been there a long time, and fine, they give people like me a chance to get to the top, which is nice even if not necessary. I do think, however, that there are fixes that could be made to improve safety, whether that means having a dedicated up side and a dedicated down side, or limiting the numbers of people who can go up per day (the crowding now is pretty absurd), or slight alteration in the design and/or location, and if the NPS isn't going to remove the cables, then they should do something to improve safety.
Sure, there are risks in life, we shouldn't bubble wrap everyone in the country, but the reality is that far too many people who go up and down the cables don't appreciate what they are getting into. I hear it all the time -- if the NPS has the cables up as part of a hiking route, then it must be safe to do it. Well, sort of.
The only reason non-climbers somehow feel entitled to have the cables up is because they have been up for so long. Take them down, and eventually people will get over it, and Half Dome will be like any other peak that is a technical climb. Or leave them up and do something to improve safety. I think status quo, however, is not the way to go.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jun 18, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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I'd like a zip line from the summit to El Cap Meadow, now THAT would be cool.
It's also telling that when I've come down from the summit at say 4PM, you see people on their way UP all the way down to the campground. Not people with headlamps, etc. going for a night ascent, but probably people that will have hiked all the way to the cables just as it get's dark, only to turn around, and have hiked all that way and not summit, bummer.
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Gene
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 05:47pm PT
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From what I have read, this was a freak accident. The victim was wearing a large backpack, slipped, and his leg caught on one of the stanchions holding the cables. If you are top heavy, slip, and hook a leg, and get turned around, not much you can do.
Sad.
Keep the cables up. They have been there forever. They are probably statistically safer than the drive to the Valley.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jun 18, 2007 - 06:12pm PT
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Tourist Falls, Dies While Climbing Half Dome
POSTED: 10:40 am PDT June 18, 2007
A 37-year-old Japanese man has been killed while hiking up Yosemite's Half Dome.
Authorities said Hirofumi Nohara slipped and fell while ascending the 48-hundred-foot granite peak in Yosemite National Park Saturday afternoon.
Members of a church group who were hiking in the area saw Nohara lose his footing about three-quarters of the way up the steep slope. They watched in horror as he tumbled down the mountainside.
Nohara was pronounced dead at the scene.
An initial investigation by the National Park Service says he did not appear to be doing anything unsafe.
A park spokeswoman says about ten to 12 people die in Yosemite each year, but very few fatalities are on Half Dome.
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Quaken
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Jun 18, 2007 - 06:34pm PT
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I saw a Monster Sized Jackrabbit up there once. I always wondered how he got up there. Maybe got away from a bird or somthing. I don't think he went spronging up the 2x4's. I chased him around for a bit and noticed that he really watched out where he was going, way more so than the ones here in the desert. He must have been up there for sometime.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jun 18, 2007 - 07:13pm PT
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now, if we could just get the NPS to re-introduce grizzly bears too...
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jun 18, 2007 - 07:39pm PT
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Is there a compelling reason for the NPS to keep the cables? I can't think of even one. They are a hassle to take up and take down every year, they do nothing for "the resource", there are plenty of outstanding hikes in the immediate area that could handle the additional traffic - Clouds Rest comes to mind - and, too many of the folks on those cables are there because its just part of a half dome hike.
Would there be "public outcry"? Sure! After all, I still hear people whining about the lack of firefall, permitless hiking, open fires anywhere, camping right next to lakes and streams, and - dare I mention it - dogs in the backcountry.
Take 'em down and leave 'em down.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 08:00pm PT
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cloud's rest is also a better view
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Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
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Jun 18, 2007 - 09:28pm PT
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They got rid of the firefall. They should get rid of the cables too.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 18, 2007 - 11:11pm PT
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Just to be clear, I don't think there should be a requirement for via ferrata gear for the cables. Just a sign that says proper gear is required and a suggestion to use via ferrata type safety lines.
That the cables are dangerous is understated by the NPS, I think a little caution might go a long way. After all, it's not like this is the first time someone fell off of those things.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 18, 2007 - 11:22pm PT
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Why does the screw-up of ONE person carry more weight with the *tear-down-the-cables* folks than the tens of thousands who manage to make it up and down those same cables with absolutely no problems at all?
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Slakkey
Trad climber
From a Quiet Place by the Lake
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Jun 18, 2007 - 11:44pm PT
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Leave the cables alone. The number of fatal accidents are minimal on half dome compared to the number of in everyday life. Yup its like a freeway up there but. there is so much more that one can enjoy in the valley if you dont want to deal with the crowds. Alot of people make the trek up there and a good number make it too. If we limit the number of people who can hike up there imagine the fall out in relationship to the number of people who can climb the many regular routes in other areas of the park.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2007 - 12:32am PT
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"Those economically disadvantaged folks can't afford to drive there either. Let's give them free gasoline, park entrance, and campsites too."
i'm ALL FOR programs that take economically disadvantaged kids out of the ghettos and plop them in the mountains.
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Quaken
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Jun 19, 2007 - 01:23am PT
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Leave them up, Thin the Herd
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2007 - 01:40am PT
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i wouldn't declare that everyone living in poverty also experiences a poverty of the soul, but kids who have seen a lot need time to process that. i believe the wilderness helps to facilitate that. plus, kids who havn't been given a lot of opportunities to experience the success of accomplishment get an opportunity to try and succeed at something, like hiking from point a to point b, or climbing a rock. it's simple. that's great.
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Mimi
climber
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Jun 19, 2007 - 01:43am PT
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Toil builds character. Physical exertion toward a goal is very satisfying. Pretty primal really. When you're dealing with basal emotional issues, how could that not be a healthy formula?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 19, 2007 - 02:36am PT
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We, as climbers, should want the cables to stay, and here is my reasoning:
Most people have no concept of the joys of climbing, and basically think of us as reckless idiots. That's why Hillary was answering the question, ordinary people don't understand.
Unless, that ordinary person has climbed Half-Dome. Tens of thousands of people, every year, get a chance to do something they never would: climb rock, experience real exposure, get the exhilaration of being on top of a real mountain that it takes real effort to attain, and experience what that is like.
That is tens of thousands of voters, constituents, taxpayers, that understand, albeit slightly, the joys of climbing, and most likely attain some level of support for what we do.
And political support is critical. If there is a problem, the easiest way to end the problem is shut the mountain down.
One astronaut to another:
Get chummy with the press, buddy. no bucks, no buck rogers.....
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 19, 2007 - 11:41am PT
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Bring back the firefall!
It was neat!
Bring back the River Campgrounds!
They were great!
Reduce LEO by 80%, and let the remainder ride ponies!
Long Live Stoneman Meadow and Free Love!
That deserves repeating ...
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 19, 2007 - 11:44am PT
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"i'm ALL FOR programs that take economically disadvantaged kids out of the ghettos and plop them in the mountains."
I always wished for a program that would let us poor mountain (or hill as the case may be) kids spend the summer in New York or at least Pittsburgh.
But about the cables...I couldn't agree w/ the last climber more. (re: voters getting a climbing experience in case someone posted in between...)
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jun 19, 2007 - 12:31pm PT
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Keep the cables, but increase signage saying "You can easily die here," a la SF's Ocean Beach. They sure are handy for getting down after a long day/week of climbing!
What the outside world is saying:
Tom Stienstra: Eyewitness report of Half Dome fall
SF Chronicle, June 19, 2007
""A Chronicle reader climbing Half Dome on Saturday saw a young man fall to his death from near the top of Half Dome in Yosemite National Park.
The on-the-spot report comes from a reader who asked to be called "ADL." He was making the park's famous climb up the back side of Half Dome, where climbing cables have been affixed to the steepest part of the ascent to make it possible for hikers to gain the famous domed top.
"He slid right by me while I was on the cables," ADL reported. "It was horrifying to witness. I did speak to a person, with his young daughter, who was directly behind the victim. Apparently it was at or near the cables. Somehow the victim lost his footing, tried to grab one of the vertical posts but could not."
After seeing this horrific event, ADL had several questions:
ADL: "I think the Half Dome cable ascent is very dangerous, and there must be more things the park can do in terms of safety and prevention. The sentiment seems to be "climb at your own risk", and I don't think that's right. In the very least, there should be another set of cables, meaning one for "up" & another for "down."
TS: I have made the climb to the top of Half Dome several times. At one point, the hike becomes an act of faith. You hang on to the cables and wedge your boots into crevices. If you are subject to vertigo or spatial disorientation, you better not look down at the freefall below. As you climb, the view into Tenaya Canyon is world-class.
Because climbing Half Dome is so difficult and yet has become a marquee rite of passage, there can be terrible traffic jams at the cables. The idea of installing two cables, one for up, another for down, would solve the dangerous moment when people meet going opposite directions. A trailhead quota with reservations would also be helpful.
ADL: "Maybe safety nets can be installed?
TS: This is wilderness. That means you indeed go at your own risk. I've seen some people treat Half Dome like a thrill ride at an amusement park. They are often unprepared in terms of physical conditioning, and the gear, clothing, water and food they bring.
ADL: "How often are the cables & posts inspected?"
TS: The climbing cables are removed at the end of summer, and then repositioned every year in early summer. Last year, a major renovation of the climbing cables was completed. So the cables are virtually brand new right now and are checked by engineers every spring, as well as daily during the season by rangers who make the climb.
ADL: "Are park officials researching ways to improve safety, to make things less dangerous for those who want to get to the top?"
TS: Yosemite rangers and the park superintendent are always discussing ways to keep people safe in the park. That is why interpretive centers have been built and rangers are available to help people make the right decisions.
But I've seen hundreds of instances where people start hiking up from Happy Isles to see Vernal Falls and Nevada Falls, and the next thing you know, they make the decision to keep going to Little Yosemite and then on to the top of Half Dome. This is not only dangerious to do on the spur-of-the-moment, it is ridiculous. This is one of the most difficult single-day treks in California, a round trip of about 20 miles with 4,000 feet of elevation gain, even for people completely prepared, in top condition, with plenty of water. So the answer is staying off the rock unless you are prepared in mind, body, gear. On one hand, I've seen prepared kids 7-years-old have no problem, and reckless young men in their mid-20s make a series of mistakes that put their lives at risk. The park service cannot control the decisions some people make out there.
The rock is unforgiving to any mistakes. My heart goes out to any one and any family involved in a climbing accident.""
Plus, many reader comments omitted but found here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sgreen/detail?blogid=40&entry_id=17696
SAVE ME FROM MYSELF Edit: The key difference between the danger presented by HD cables and other hazardous spots is that the NPS maintains/installs the cables. This current uproar is not a quest to eliminate risks from outdoor activities. People are just wondering whether the NPS (i.e. Fed. Govt.) should be enabling people to kill themselves.
CRAWLING FROM THE WRECKAGE Edit: I also agree with below poster re: circus atmosphere atop HD is a drag. We had people dropping rocks on/near us as we climed the last few pitches. They were gone when we topped out, but the hordes were still there, full of questions. I literally RAN down the cables, sliding on the soles of my sneakers. No one was injured.
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10b4me
Trad climber
Hell A
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Jun 19, 2007 - 12:37pm PT
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NewsFlash: NPS to consider installing escalator on Half Dome.:-)
what about the hike to Angels Landing in Zion. it's somewhat exposed in spots. should we rope up for that?
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Dusty
Trad climber
up & down highway 99
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Jun 19, 2007 - 12:47pm PT
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Lose the cables. It worked fine on the Long's Peak Cables Route, and there are fewer accidents now. Fixed cable inspire recklessness in the unprepared and are dangerous for that reason. There's plenty of cool summits in Yosemite that are safe for the everday hiker and don't require massive amounts of unsightly fixed junk. Plus I don't like to admit it, but I hated topping out the NW face to hordes of folks above you taking pictures, asking questions etc... this is expected at Swan Slab but an alpine wall like Half Dome?? Come back. But hey, that's just me.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 19, 2007 - 12:53pm PT
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Why bother w/ crowding at the cables and people risking sudden death (which I'd bet my lunch happens more often on the hike anyway) when you can have them killing themselves slowly by eating consessionaire burgers while they take pictures of bears in El Cap meadow from the comfort of their SUV?
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imnotclever
climber
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Jun 19, 2007 - 02:21pm PT
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Has any of you, that have done the cables, actually seen somebody harness up and clip in?
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Jun 19, 2007 - 02:27pm PT
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Apparently people use the cables in early season to descend from Snake Dike (before the supports go up) -
The guy in the pic (click for full page on SP) is apparently wearing a harness and has a prusik loop on the cable. Note presence of snow/ice.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 19, 2007 - 02:28pm PT
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I clipped in for about 10 seconds (after Snake Dike), decided it was a PITA, and started batmanning down the usual way. My partner and I were the only ones on them which made for awesome exposure.
This was the first person to ever perish while the cables were up. I consider such a strong record a fabulous testement to the ability of all sorts of humans from children to elderly and fit to unfit to take care of ourselves when we know our life is on the line.
Way more people fall into the drink b/c they don't realize how careful they need to be.
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Jim Leininger
Trad climber
tucson, az
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Jun 19, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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"Has any of you, that have done the cables, actually seen somebody harness up and clip in? "
Yes, when we used to take our younger Scouts up there, we would rig them up with a very basic swami belt harness, including shoulder straps, and 2 attached runners with biners... That way they could stay clipped in to the cable as they passed the uprights...Worked very well, and gave the kids some confidence to do the climb....
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jun 19, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
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Melissa, that stat about this being the first 'cables up' death is enlightening.
Rhyang, I have descended the cables and clipped into them. But they were down, so you had to lift them up off the rock anyway. And it was icy in mid-March, like in that photo. And I was a noob to boot. I'm now amazed I didn't die slipping off the icy steps below the cables. THAT was a perfect opportunity for death. Sheesh, NPS needs a handrail there too, while we're cleaning things up.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 19, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
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I was up for the first time on Sat after SnakeDike and it was eerie - only a half dozen hikers left after the death, and YOSAR recovering the body (thanks YOSAR - we appreciate you guys).
And yes, we clipped in on the way down. Without gloves, I felt like I had very little control on the slippery rocks with sweaty hands on those cables: I'm surprised there aren't more deaths.
I think they ought to just a second cable system with wooden slats (e.g. every 2 feet instead of every 10) for footholds.
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ADK
climber
truckee
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Jun 19, 2007 - 03:36pm PT
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Reactionary policy-making is never a good idea.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jun 19, 2007 - 03:37pm PT
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I'm having a little trouble converging this report: "They told a group leader they saw Nohara, wearing a large backpack, lose his footing..." with the statement by the NPS that he wasn't doing anything dangerous. I'd consider the addition of a large backpack as adding risk to the ascent.
When I was reading the posts earlier in the thread, I was just like "leave 'em up, people have to take responsibility for themselves", but at this point I have to say I think they should just remove them and call it quits. Especially if you have people like that "ADL" weasel out there calling for safety nets. Eliminate the thrill ride, pull 'em down! The park service doesn't owe the public a thrill ride.
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gonz
Trad climber
Yofukinsemite
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Jun 19, 2007 - 04:48pm PT
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yeah i heard they were replacing the cables with escalotors
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2007 - 04:51pm PT
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slide up in the escalade.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Jun 19, 2007 - 06:37pm PT
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I think they ought to just a second cable system with wooden slats (e.g. every 2 feet instead of every 10) for footholds.
This sounds a lot like via ferrata ... not such a bad idea imo if they end up changing anything at all.
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Gene
climber
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Jun 19, 2007 - 06:56pm PT
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Does anyone know if the cables route follows George Anderson's FA of Half Dome? I have always assumed it does, but I don't actually know.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 20, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
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Next time that you are up there, look around and you can see plenty of evidence as to where Anderson took his ladder. The man liked a big piece of metal in that hole so his trail is pretty conspicuous upon close inspection. Of course, he had plenty of options considering his methods but I for one am glad that he chose the East facing shoulder rather than.......
Just a little less work......Ed Cooper photo.
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Domingo
Mountain climber
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Jun 20, 2007 - 12:30pm PT
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"The sentiment seems to be 'climb at your own risk', and I don't think that's right."
I'm all for making it safer, but this mentality makes me want to kill myself.
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| Messages 1 - 72 of total 72 in this topic |
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