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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:02pm PT
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well on the other hand (devil's advocate), if some hammock sleepers decided it was super proud and worthy to sleep in a hammock in the middle of an open granite cliff, and they then decided to bolt their way up featureless crackless granite to get to the most extreme and isolated positions, who would YOU be to tell them that they were destroying the rock?
couldn't they look you in the eye and say that you destroy the rock as you see fit, when and where you decide it's ok, and as you openly disregard anyone else who says your impacts upon the cliffs are too great, so in turn do they?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:05pm PT
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So, the first rule of thumb is to save yourself.
If you die saving the rock?
What have you done?
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:08pm PT
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Matt, you're talking about the extreme of one end of the spectrum. There is much more consensus on the ends -- I'd say nearly unanimous. It's the grey areas like this where, IMO, there's just no point to the hair splitting about who's style is better or more acceptible. We're all in agreement that we strive to climb in as low impact a style as possible.
Ed
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:15pm PT
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"We're all in agreement that we strive to climb in as low impact a style as possible."
This isn't really true. We've all decided that a certain amount of impact in the pursuit of climbing experiences is acceptable, and we all draw the line for what that amount is in different, perhaps similar, places.
If it was really just impact on the rock that got people twisted, you'd think people would fuss more about Shultz Ridge and Mecca or the big white stripe beside Reed's Direct or the haul bag stripes on the Column or climber trails or...
Clean and hammerless climbing do go hand in hand in my opinion. Leaving the hammer at home on an established route that uses fixed gear isn't a very interesing statement to me. Going hammerless on new routes is something that I strive for (but don't always do.)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:22pm PT
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An important thing to discuss. I think Ammon's OP was mostly big wall specific, but have some general thoughts. John's thread a week or so ago, about bolts, was quite relevant to this stuff.
I believe that some general principles apply to almost all climbing and climbers, in terms of the environment:
 It is done voluntarily, for a variety of personal goals.
As living consuming members of developed countries, our individual and collective personal impacts on the environment are almost certainly unsustainable. Those impacts are likely more important than those from climbing, in the big picture.
Climbing has both real and perceived impacts. To outsiders, e.g. land managers and the public, the latter are as important as the former. A bolt in and of itself usually has trivial real environmental impact. It has enormous perceived or symbolic impact. It says to others "If someone is willing to place one bolt, they may be willing to do anything. This is just a start. And with bolts come trails, climbers, cleaning, and impacts."
Environmental effects are on both the natural and the human environment, assuming that they can be distinguished. (Are humans "natural"?)
There are some absolutes, but many more relatives, when it comes to assessing and minimizing impacts. A multi-variable equation.
No one has the right answer, but some are or claim to be in a position where they do, or at least that they have the right to decide.
As climbers and individuals, and as a community, we know we need to do much better.
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:23pm PT
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for some people, breaking bottles and spray painting their lovers name is ok, and there is a large group that feels that way, so is that like a concencus?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:24pm PT
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proactive impact is correct Ron.
e.g. single trail built, rather than multiple braided trails stamped out. I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this aspect, not just on the walls and placements.
"Stop Hammer time"
should actually read
"Stop,... Hammer time."
heh
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:26pm PT
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Our gym is hammerless.
Lotta chalk though!
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Rocky5000
Trad climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:49pm PT
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I'm with Jstan on this type of thing; as in many other aspects of modern life, population pressure makes any kind of unpleasant behavior far more visible to all. It isn't a moral issue; no amount of rule-making and enforcement will make us all happy when the boat is getting crammed rail-to-rail. No matter how carefully you swing your hammer it will hit some poor schmuck in the eye. Force us all to drive microscopic hybrids and we'll all just go insane that much more efficiently, slowly swarming back and forth in the sluggish arterials of the megacity...
No matter; nature takes care of these imbalances eventually. It won't be pretty, though. I'm going to emigrate to Pluto. Be awhile before the cliffs there get holds bolted on them.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:54pm PT
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Ah trails. Wonderful subject! Below Carderock there were, after a time, NO PLANTS ANYWHERE. But that place has a special problem. Suffice it to say, this is the last thing you would choose.
If you have ever seen the mountain laurel in bloom you would not choose to destroy that. Long ago in the Gunks much of the laurel was suffering. There too we had a discussion - among friends. I put up some blue ribbons just to see if there was any way to get our arms around the problem. Quite appropriately, a friend of mine immediately took them all down. But yes, an answer was possible. We found one of the answers almost by accident while working with the Preserve to buid one of the first trails.
Being complete idiots we were not sure what we were doing until someone said, " Look. If we are to keep traffic off the laurel we need to build something that will not be used because it is the easiest way. We need to build something a climber just can't resist going up. And if we build it out of rock with all odd angles it won't even look like a trail."
In a sense, the way up to the cliff became part of the route.
Borrowing from "The Graduate". I am going to say one word. You don't need to reply.
Design.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 09:11pm PT
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Yeah.
Thats the ticket.
My routes are designer routes.
They're like sausage. Tasty, but you don't want to know how they're made.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Jun 14, 2007 - 09:14pm PT
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aww common, that wasn't even trolling, that was just being a cynic. if that was trolling, that was about damn near the worst job ever!
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Evdawg
Trad climber
Sacramento/S. Tahoe
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Jun 14, 2007 - 10:29pm PT
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speaking of clean climbing? are pitons even allowed anymore??
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jstan
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 11:48pm PT
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ED:
You are smarter than I if you can figure out what is what today. Speaking as a figure in a darkened corner of a very old room, pitons were something one used if truly needed. But in using them one knew there were tradeoffs each person had to make - for themselves.
J
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YetAnotherDave
Trad climber
Vancouver, BC
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Jun 15, 2007 - 03:58pm PT
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There's one thing I'm fuzzy on as far as 'hammerless' climbing, especially on softer rock: It seems to me that nut placements often come out more easily and with less scarring if you give a light upward tap with a hammer rather than yard on the cable. If the goal is minimal scarring, then I'd advocate carrying a light hammer to ease nut cleaning. As a bonus, it keeps the cables on your brassies from getting horribly kinked.
Especially since cams induce more wear than nuts in soft stone, I'd expect that clean climbing advocates would be vocal in pushing nutcraft, and minimal-damage cleaning, rather than just saying "leave the hammer at home".
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jstan
climber
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:21pm PT
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Of course it all depends, but the nut tool is generally massive enough to do the job.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:23pm PT
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Astute observation Dave.
When I did the first hammerless ascents of a number of climbs I hadn't anticipated such continued degradation.
This is a serious long term problem!
It will probably come down to fixing a lot of gear and clipping up these routes just to enjoy the scenery.
Although not an enticing prospect the people that hope to experience ascents that recreate the experience that the first party had are kidding themselves anyway.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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how many ascents did you have to do and how many days did you spend on Touchstone beffore you got it hammerless ron?
i am just curious. i dont think you just walked up and did it hammerless and these conversations are (i think) pertinent to this discussion.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:51pm PT
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It went hammerless on the seventh ascent, May, '81.
My fifth time up the route.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 05:05pm PT
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Thinking about the number of days but I really can't say.
The times I did the first 100m but didn't summit made a critical difference in seeing through the process, using constructive scarring to remove the pins and fixing some needed gear.
The route is a hell of a lot different now. The bolts I later added to the start and the finish make it a grade easier/shorter but almost nobody uses the initial ladder for what it was intended (simul-climbing by the second so that the first two pitches, the "aid" section, could be run together).
Likewise the mid-stations, which were to allow one party to rap past an ascending party, are often used as belays which cocks things up sequence and rack-wise.
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