The death of mantle topouts?

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Messages 1 - 63 of total 63 in this topic
marty(r)

climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 13, 2007 - 09:23pm PT
I'm all for climbing V15 and all that, but shouldn't topping out be as stylish as the ascent to the lip?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qr5LqZEhu7A
You be the judge.
GrandMastaD

Social climber
Jun 13, 2007 - 10:02pm PT
Cameraman: "Don't make a mistake!"
That's the beta I need!
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jun 13, 2007 - 10:06pm PT
I don't understand the criticism? Was there not enough enthusiasm for the 5.4 finishing moves that he did? The celebration on top lacked gusto?

edit...thanks for the link...nice climbing.
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jun 13, 2007 - 10:25pm PT
the word is spelled mantel
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jun 13, 2007 - 10:29pm PT
And that is why I'm partial to the stories of the Californians who might not have been as official rad as the people and places I'm supposed to care about.
pc

climber
East of Seattle
Jun 13, 2007 - 11:13pm PT
Nice climbing. Yeah, I'd have tried to avoid the mantel too ;)
Blowboarder

Boulder climber
Back in the mix
Jun 14, 2007 - 01:04am PT
whale flopping is a subcategory of mantelling.

i'm stellar at it.
James

climber
A tent in the redwoods
Jun 14, 2007 - 01:10am PT
Don't be a clown.
wildone

climber
The Astroman of 5.9
Jun 14, 2007 - 01:13am PT
I actually know a mantel boulder problem in curry that you can't do any other way than the "beached whale".
So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Also, I'm drunk.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 14, 2007 - 01:21am PT
"The Fish Mantel" at Woodson is infamous.

No one should visit Mt. woodson without doing The Fish Mantel with friends all watching at the end of the day before you call it quits. ROTFLYAO funny.

Classic.


I agree. If a climb tops out then you need to finish it properly. Sometimes the mantel at the very end of the climb when you are all pumped is the crux. If you cut it out --- you are cheating.
pro_alien

Sport climber
Zurich, Switzerland
Jun 14, 2007 - 01:48am PT
I vote for the beached whale belly flop.
Salamanizer

Mountain climber
Vacaville Ca,
Jun 14, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
You can see at the end of the video how he was too busy chokeing back his vomit to care about his top out presentation.






AMATEUR!!!
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Jun 14, 2007 - 04:41pm PT
Marty, may be you could hop on and really show him how its done eh?

Cool footage in any case thanks for the link-
the chemist

climber
Palo Alto, CA
Jun 14, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
That wasn't too bad, check this footage of Dani Andrada using his knees.

http://www.nodogmaclimbing.com/videos/chopos.wmv

The knees come in at the 4:10 mark.

Must be a hard climb if dude who is a more elegant climber than I could dream of being has to use his knees.

Sir Run-it-out

Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
Jun 14, 2007 - 06:15pm PT

Couple of good comments below the utube video.

Why are so many climbing and bouldering videos ruined by the cameraman shouting at the top of their voice? Can't they learn
to keep quiet? Do they ever watch their own videos?
Ksolem

Trad climber
LA, Ca
Jun 14, 2007 - 06:18pm PT
Nice video with the sound off. His ascent and top out is splendid. What is your problem?
bler

Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
Jun 14, 2007 - 06:44pm PT
what, you've never used a cock-lock?
Blowboarder

Boulder climber
Back in the mix
Jun 14, 2007 - 09:16pm PT
Dan Gleason put up this sick mantel problem in teh Nogan, you full extension reach over this roof to twin slopers and then have to cut your feet off the back wall under the roof and hip scum/trutch your center of gravity over the roof while not shaking yourself of the slopes and then eventually transfer weight to one foot about 5" below the slopes and then stand up on it. No other way to do it.

Sex With Santa Klaus or Beached Whale, depending on the agegroup.

My friend was out there flashing v7's and firing v8's second try and he couldn't even come close to doing it.

Thrutching is totally valid.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Jun 14, 2007 - 10:15pm PT
Where's Run Amuck? He's pretty much the acknowledged master of the grainy Woodson mantel.

I watched a woman, a very accomplished sport climber, onsite a tricky 5.11 at the quarry on my property. She just floated the thing, but confronted with the simple mantel at the top she blew right off - the move is easier than the mantel on Nutcracker.
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jun 15, 2007 - 04:33am PT
In context with this thread, it seems strange I once so loved mantels. I went out of my way to find them. Of course back then I was a gymnast and could do hollow-back presses off the floor. According to some, I invented the one-arm mantel, starting in a one-arm hang on a two-inch wide ledge... I loved those awful rounded tops of boulders, where I had to do something like a pure muscle-up. I took pride in doing all of Pratt's mantels in Camp 4. He was amazing. Royal did a few too, with his dislocating shoulders (bringing his elbows together in front of his face, with both heels of his hands on a small hold at his waist). I used mantel techniques of various varieties on assorted face climbs. In Tuolumne I often looked up to try to find some small hand hold I could mantel onto. I never felt more solid than when I was manteling. I guess I and we were all kind of nuts. I can't even do a push-up anymore, because "adhesive capsulitis" ruined my shoulder, so I think now I have joined those climbers who become soft as overcooked spaghetti at the site of a mantel...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 15, 2007 - 10:51am PT
During a pretty long bouldering and climbing career, I never met anyone who could mantel like Ament. In those days before climbing gyms, his manteling prowess inspired the rest of us to indulge in ridiculous training and achieve...ridiculous strength.

But Pat had something I frankly never saw in anyone else: manteling style. It didn't come from strength, although he had plenty---it was balance. I recall a problem on the Columbia boulder that Pat did with, among other things, a pair of linked mantels, including a mid-mantel hand change. It looked as smooth and elegant as a pommel horse routine, and as is evident, I never forgot it. I eventually managed the problem with the antithesis of Ament's style, teetering precariously on slipping palms, losing sight of footholds while trying to get a little extra friction with my chin, tilting over backwards and just barely recovering, stalling out in mid-press---a veritable festival of ungainliness.

Nowadays, the mantel seems to be something of a lost art. There's a hard one in the Gunks I did years ago, right in the midst of some popular problems, that I never see anyone even try. (Ok, I admit, it is a bit contrived, but it's a mantel fer god's sake.) A few others are overgrown and totally forgotten, not that they have any claim to being memorable.

Boulderers on routes so hard we walked past them without recognizing even the potential, much less the actuality, get to the top and then blow mantels we'd do for warm-ups. Or---oh unpardonable stylistic faux pas---they throw a leg over before pressing. Pressing strength just ain't "in," perhaps because climbers go to climbing gyms rather than gymnastic ones, and sport climbing terrain is way too steep for mantling to matter.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
Knob Central
Jun 15, 2007 - 11:38am PT
Bob Kamps could mantel with the best of them. He still has problems at Stoney Point that no one else does/can do. I have seen a few of those people that can touch their elbows together and that lets them mantel just about anything, but Bob wasn't graced with any special tricks. He just wanted it more than you did and was patient enough to take the time get it.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Jun 15, 2007 - 01:11pm PT
Caution: Old School Technology Below(What did we ever do before video!?)

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......so, this would be not so stylee, then? Poooor Brandonnnnn.....

Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jun 15, 2007 - 01:24pm PT
"..Or---oh unpardonable stylistic faux pas---they throw a leg over before pressing. Pressing strength just ain't "in," perhaps because climbers go to climbing gyms rather than gymnastic ones, and sport climbing terrain is way too steep for mantling to matter."

Or maybe it's just that standing on top without falling off is the intuitive goal for those of us who never got coached on the rules?

Honestly, I didn't kow there was a stylistic faux pas to heel hooking the top out. Trying to climb using moves that are seen as stylistically superior when they are clearly functionally inferior just doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe it's a shift away from seeing bouldering as contrived practice for something else towards seeing each boulder problem as its own worthy route? Of course, some of you guys must have seen it that way back when too. Baffling...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 15, 2007 - 02:05pm PT
Kamps was a dear friend of mine and I bouldered with him a lot. What he excelled at was getting his foot onto the @#!!%$ hold after pressing up. But his manteling couldn't hold a candle to Ament's.

It is getting harder and harder to write ironically or make a joke unless you label it with some sort of emoticon to alert literal-minded readers that humor is happening. The faux pas comment was meant in jest. :-) ;-) :-o :-} There ya go.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jun 15, 2007 - 02:15pm PT
Even with a winky face, I still wouldn't get it.

Why did you guys have a style 'rule' (in jest or not) that valued an often needlessly difficult way of topping out? Clearly this was somewhat of a value (perhaps a big one?) or there would be no discussion here.
Tahoe climber

Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
Jun 15, 2007 - 02:27pm PT
I'm thinking he was joking the whole time and didn't, in fact, have a style rule regarding heel hooking on mantels.

But that's just me.

-Aaron
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Jun 15, 2007 - 02:28pm PT
wow Missy.... you are really getting into this mantel thingy.... It is kinda like "soul"..... "If I have to explain it to you, you just won't understand"

try this:
Clean top outs get more style points. Belly rolls and whale flops look like shiit.... simple really. The mantel topout is a showcase for power and control. Two things that were desirable pre-1988 or so.

Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jun 15, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
I appreciate the explanation, Russ.

I get the whale hump loss of points for the sheer ugliness. But not a stylee high steppin' rock on to the summit like the young fella who sent the V14 who was getting a style point deduction for his top out.

Even if it's a joke, there's some value that people have there that I was trying to understand. No one is making comments with a wink or a nudge about the way he stuck the sloper with an nice sturdy slap.
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Jun 15, 2007 - 02:39pm PT
Heel hooks are sorta ok....
but there is nothing like a pure butterfly mantel to finish off a problem.... toes pointed straight down, buttocks clenched tight, a nice clean press showcasing unreal power... so much power in fact, that if you plugged wires into the back of said manteler, you could light a small city.....
Seems much better than pawing at the teflon summit with heel hooks, rand scum, fupa friction and all the rest. Hit the dip bars and impress your friends on your next topout.
Tahoe climber

Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
Jun 15, 2007 - 02:42pm PT
I'm a fan of the stylee heel hook, myself, Mel.

Though the "clenched-buttock" show of strength shows great promise.

edit:// Can we get a pic? (Preferably of Melissa - NOT of Russ!)

Ouch?


bwahahahahahah!
close edit://
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jun 15, 2007 - 02:42pm PT
Yeah, maybe it was a matter of soul, certainly at the top of a boulder with a nasty fall in the offing. But maybe also it had something to do with the fact that some folks got extremely strong and went looking for opportunities to show off. Do correct me if this ingredient is utterly absent from modern bouldering.
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Jun 15, 2007 - 02:46pm PT
Rgold: the strength seems to be there.... but the expanded skill set is knott.....

add a visual edit:

Here is a fair rendition of a mantel..... the fall is pretty bad as you start on an undercut boulder about 10 feet up.... except for my feet kicking a bit (late in the day!) this is a typical 1980's - early 90's press on adequate terrain. (Note the clenched butt for Tahoe Climber)

http://fishproducts.com/movies/sputnik_mantle.mov
AWhit

Trad climber
Bozeman, MT
Jun 15, 2007 - 03:08pm PT
Manteling is an necessary art of bouldering. Tom giving a "Shambar Toast" at the Playground.

TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Jun 15, 2007 - 03:11pm PT
Uh-oh - I'm boned.....no style fer me

The 'toast' goes like this BTW....

Here's to us!

who's like us?

Damn few.....

and they're all dead!



Cheers,

Tom
marty(r)

climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2007 - 03:48pm PT
The pre-88 rule I was brought up with was that if you touched your knee on any top-out, you owed your whole crew a round of beers at the latest incarnation of the Boom Boom Room (JT).

Any day above ground (or the mantle-Oli) is a good day. Raw power is just gravy. But style should matter.

Mussy, do you have a shot of Lechlinski doing the Stem Gem Mantel? Or Kurt Albert doing all those butterfly moves in Fontainbleau?
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jun 15, 2007 - 09:00pm PT
Thank you, my dear friend Rich, for you kind words. You are an inspiration, as always.

I wasn't very strong, really, but I discovered I had a flair for pressing and manteling, and I began to develop it a bit for the sole purpose of perhaps getting up certain kinds of rock I wouldn't be able to get up otherwise. On Flagstaff, there is a shiny crystal and very little other than that, if anthing else at all. The crystal sticks out of the sandstone about a foot above the height of one's forehead, and the rock undercuts below the crystal. I realized I could never face climb such a face of rock, but putting the heel of my hand on the top of the crystal I could envision doing a pull and then a mantel and, possibly, like Kamps, getting my foot somehow on something or even on the crystal... I tried the problem a few times, if I recall, and did it. Then I could do it again and again. For years no one could do it again, though Christian and Holloway, and maybe other newer super stars began to get it. There was no other way, at least for me, to do that climb. It had nothing to do with style, rather it was the way to succeed.

Later I began to contrive mantels a bit. Kamps and I bouldered at the One-Arms Rocks, on Flagstaff, one evening, staying there well past dark, in an effort to do every route on that little formation with only one hand. We succeeded at all of them (and that's how the rock got its name, actually), but I did one route Bob couldn't do, now called the One-Arm Mantel. You climb up first by reaching with the right hand a small finger hold. Pull up with one arm, then hop the hand to a high ledge -- not a great one -- and, pull up and mantel, finishing by stepping onto the foothold. John Sherman has a photo of me doing the route in his book Stone Crusade. That route is a beginner's walk using both hands. So yes it was contrived, but whenever I got on any real climb, if I caught sight of the slightest ledge it became a mantel possibility if I turned out I was unable to do it any other way. That skill gave me a little extra to draw upon, if needed.

Now I have never cared much how anyone finishes a boulder or a climb, if they use a knee or throw a leg or heel up. Kor would go bouldering with me, and he was awkward on the boulders. He'd use his knee whenever it was necessary, and that was simply the great Layton full of spirit and a will to climb almost stronger than anyone else's I can remember. I believe in doing what works best, and what keeps you safest and in best control. If that means throwing a leg up, fine. If that means gripping the hold strongly and manteling in some kind of pure fashion, fine also.

Some climbers are simply very artistic, and it never meant much to them to flounder up a climb. They felt the best doing it in control, smoothly, artfully, and sometimes that meant a pure mantel of sort at the top, rather than some kind of beached-whale scratching and clawing and kicking and... turning upsidedown. But no one should belittle anyone if the latter example is their best way. It's all climbing and climbing only...
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jun 15, 2007 - 11:46pm PT
The photos posted above don't look like mantels to me, rather just regular top-outs. Even the last one, going over that slab of rock, doesn't seem to be a mantel problem, although I might be seeing it wrong. The first photos, though, don't show a mantel at all.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Jun 16, 2007 - 02:13am PT
What Oli says is great truth. Come on, Cali-climbers, where's the picture(s) of the infamous mantel on "T-Crack" at Gibralter Rock, Santa Barbara? Good placement, must-do moves, and a nice photo perch, make this a real gem in mantel-land, no ?
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jun 16, 2007 - 03:55am PT
Pratt had a great body for climbing, and especially for Yosemite. He wasn't heavy. He had big biceps but very wide shoulders. His chest was surprisingly thin. So he could slip tightly into some of those offwidths and with that shoulder width get great leverage, but he was exceptionally good at mantels. His mantels were a tour some of us dreamt about and worked at each visit to the Valley. I wonder how many people now even know where those mantels are, or if those mantels are included in the new Yosemite bouldering guide. I felt I had really accomplished something when I did all those mantels. The fact remained that Pratt didn't train at gymnastics, as some of us did. He simply had a gift.

I'm trying to remember that double-mantel thing you described, Rich. It's not coming to me just at the moment. Do you mean left or right of the Steck Overhang?
426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Jun 16, 2007 - 12:55pm PT
The Kids are awe-right.

Oli, I hear you were quite the 'man'tler. Who's repeated your "one arm press" problem in Eldo....anyone on this site?
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jun 16, 2007 - 02:54pm PT
I don't know which one you're talking about. I really didn't have a specific, notable one-arm mantel in Eldorado. Only on Flagstaff.
426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Jun 17, 2007 - 12:38pm PT
My mistake, I've only climbed around boulder a few times, and no one I knew was into a "mantling" tour...

Anyone? Fess up if you've done Oli's "one arm mantle problem" up Flag way...
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jun 17, 2007 - 08:01pm PT
It rather moved me when John Sherman, one of our country's best and most prolific boulderers, wrote in his book Stone Crusade, about my route, "His one-arm mantel... has embarrassed generations of boulderers who felt they climbed beyond 1960s standards." I now walk along the base of those climbs and point to them: "There's one I used to do, and... here's one I used to do..."
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jun 17, 2007 - 08:07pm PT
Now I do remember a one-arm kind of mantel on the north side of the Milton Boulder, in Eldorado, where I came up off the river side, via some boulders I could walk out onto, and then up the steep wall onto that sloping slab... It wasn't a pure one-arm mantel, as I could use my left hand on whatever I could find... but it was kind of slippery, and you might fall into the water.
Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jun 18, 2007 - 01:11pm PT
I tied to do a kind of dip out of a chair this morning but fell back limp into the chair, a helpless blob of flesh and bone. I wonder now if I will ever win the Piolet...
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jun 18, 2007 - 04:45pm PT
Take a really clean mantel, let's say the fireplace, if you have to ask which one, never mind... , you ain't gettin' up it with a 'beached whale,' cheatin' with a heel hook only has limited value as well.

Technique (which can demand strength) rules.


Although, there IS value to knowing what you can get away with, especially, if you settle for ticking grades.
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Jun 18, 2007 - 08:40pm PT
I'm kinda not seeing the "whale flop" people were talking about. It doesn't appear that the guy's body, let alone his belly touch the rock, at all. And, actually, the only thing I really see different about the first video top-out and the video Russ posted is the angle of their bodies. Russ' video also shows someone pressing with a foot and an arm, then reaching up for a hold higher up. Not sure I'd call either of those a mantel, nor that I would say they aren't. They look pretty similar regardless.

Although easy, when I think of a mantel, I think of a cool V0 problem on the Wine Boulder, just past Dominator. There's a bit of a flake that you match on, pull up and start pressing out the mantel as you match your foot to your hands on the flake/rail. Don't remember the name - it sits facing Blue Suede Shoes, which is an awesome slab problem!

OR, the firepit in the mountain room!

Oli

Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
Jun 19, 2007 - 07:24pm PT
I think my manteling started on the Northwest Corner of the Bastille in 1965-6. There is that move on the crux pitch, where you reach way up right for a finger ledge and then have to pull up and mantel on it. I took Kamps up that route once, and he fired it beautifully.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 13, 2008 - 02:42am PT
bump...
jbar

Mountain climber
Inside my head
Nov 13, 2008 - 03:24am PT
We have a great local scrable up a 100' boulder I like to take people who are interested in learning to climb. The books call it a 5.something but it's really just 4th. One section is a flat block with an great ledge about 6.5' up. the wall is slightly overhanging and completely smooth. You don't have any choice but to grab, jump as high as you can and mantel out. People get the arm extension but then want to throw their knee on top.

Bump for Eldo!

MisterE

Trad climber
My Inner Nut
Nov 13, 2008 - 10:57am PT
Nice bump. Maybe the advent of climbing pads allowed for falls from heel-hooks without injury, whereas before pads the safer fall was from the pure mantel position?

Just a thought...
salad

climber
Escondido
Nov 13, 2008 - 12:12pm PT



klk

Trad climber
cali
Nov 13, 2008 - 12:13pm PT
Willoughby

Social climber
Truckee, CA
Feb 11, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
Bump for mantel photos!!!
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Feb 11, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
I don't think that video is much of a testimony to the death of mantels---he was just using good technique, and his top-out was hardly in the beached whale category.

I have seen some highly accomplished boulderers who either failed or performed ghastly fish flops on rounded top-outs that masters like Ament would have totally styled.

Mantling required the development of muscles which, nowadays, play little role in cutting-edge overhanging climbing. The sub-specialty of hard mantles has faded, if not vanished, from the bouldering scene. This is one area, perhaps the only area, in which the old masters were better than the modern generation.
gonamok

climber
dont make me come over there
Feb 11, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
epperson on the stem gem mantlerick allenby on unnamed mantle, joshua treerick allenby on the heinous Curtis mantle at woodson V5/6yours truly on the classic suzys mantle at santeetodd tremble showing perfect technique at Black Mountain
Man we loved to mantle BITD. Ya gotta be sick, and that we were.
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 26, 2012 - 12:06am PT
I'm considered the "younger generation" of cimbers, and I search mantels out quite a bit (boulder problems). Maybe it's because they are obscure, and puzzling to sort out at first, but they're also a good way to warm up and get the blood flowing. I really like how they seem so ridiculously weird or difficult at first, and they happen so fast when you do finally get them, it's such a fun moment.

Just a thought, since mantels are mainly dependent upon arm, shoulder, back, and core muscles... Could they have been more prominent BITD because of the shoes they wore? Many of these sorts of climbs seem as if they are not dependent upon sticky rubber (though it always helps). They're just a matter of hoisting yourself up in just the right way, with the perfect combination of power and balance. So maybe it was just a different "eye" for a possible climb, another possibility based upon the nuances of that era... Just a thought!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 26, 2012 - 01:11am PT
That V14 looks dang hard and tricky

and pity the fool to have the peanut gallery yell lame stuff like "Concentrate!!"

Yeah, I concentrate better when people STFU

Great thing about multi-pitch climbing... to far off the ground to be bothered by pep talk

Peace

karl

Edit: shameless Knee Scum after V-15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUoFXV7MgR4&feature=related
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 26, 2012 - 01:17am PT
Ahhh, now....

The kids are ripping it today. Get over it.
splitclimber

climber
Sonoma County
Jun 26, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
it's cause there are no mantel's in the gym. ;)
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Jun 26, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
Knee schmee! After watching this and those two guys jogging up the Nutcracker on that other thread, I just feel like a tired, weak old man. I might just have to get up off this chair and do something today!
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 27, 2012 - 01:10am PT
http://verticalhold.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/comp-poster-2012.jpg

An entire gym bouldering competition dedicated to mantels! It is not a lost art...
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