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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 28, 2007 - 12:41am PT
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So I am finally back home after a great week in the valley ..
A TR will be forth-coming, and a slideshow also .. but meanwhile i wanted to make some 1st person comments on the zodiac cleanup ..
AWESOME IDEA!!! -- those guys did this route a great service in my opinion..
.. the quality of the route is ALOT higher than when i did it 4 years ago .. -- the difficulty is also higher.
I'll do a pitch by pitch comparison soon in a TR -- I'm not sure how many folks have repeated the route since the cleanup, but I wanted to see first hand what the big deal was about .. and i've gotta say that i really enjoyed the cleanup. -- the route is not a clip-up anymore, there are severeal heads-up sections, (DFU) ..
 on top of that i'd like to suggest that we keep the zodiac clean .. i cleaned up most of the fixed gear from pitch 7 and 9 .. -- 5+ pins, 1 large beak, and 3 heads that my partner had placed, (came out fairly easy)
.. the addition of fixed gear from our ascent was 1 head that i welded into pitch 8 ..
.. the route requires minimal nailing in its current state (for the average climber -- some dude posted that he did it clean a little while ago -- IMO that requires a large commitment) .. (i nailed 4 times (pitch 8, 10, 13) -- but did not lead 7 or 9) -- though i think that those 2 pitches require at most 3 or so placements ..
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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May 28, 2007 - 12:58am PT
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But dude, you're a Shortest Straw vet at this point. Are you sure your standards are fair? Would you have made it on your first attempt if in current condition? I think I'm being squeezed out of the game. :-)
want to see your slide show though.
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feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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May 28, 2007 - 01:02am PT
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by "cleaning" that gear...does it now go clean easier...or will it need to be re-nailed again and again?
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2007 - 01:02am PT
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.. thats something that i was saving for my TR .. i think i would have been in a heap of trouble climbing the current zodiac as my first wall solo ..
.. i think pitch 9 and pitch 10 would have been pretty damm hard to get through that first time .. -- i dont know what the outcome would have been .. but most likely i would have lobbed hard on those pitches .. perhaps even met Mr Werner personally...
.. to answer the other question (does claening the gear mean it needs to nailed again?) -- that depends on the climbers level of proficiency -- its always easieest to pound in an angle or a lost arrow -- but those same placements will almost always take an offset alien, a camhook, a lowe-ball, or an offset brassie.. --
.. when the cleanup crew went by .. they removed alot of non FA bolts and rivets .. so one of the things that i found "FUN" this time around was figuring out how the climbing was supposed to be done without those rivets.. on a large number of occassions it was hooking .. which IMO made zodiac more enjoyable to me now.
I was disappointed to find that somemone has stolen the hangers from several bolts ont he route though .. totally lame! -- and that someone thought it was a good idea to pound a head into a bathook hole! ..
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 28, 2007 - 01:05am PT
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Hey Ricardo..
..Congrats on another ascent! And thanks for the radio call when we were over on the Tower..it was great to hear from ya, mate..
..Planning a rematch on the Captain in another week or so....
..Maybe Tom will take pictures..
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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May 28, 2007 - 01:48am PT
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Good work Ricardo! I also enjoyed the "cleaner" Zod when I did it last.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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May 28, 2007 - 02:29am PT
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Looking forward to reading your comparison. Congrats on the climb!
Ed
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Yah00
Trad climber
CA
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May 28, 2007 - 02:49am PT
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"i cleaned up most of the fixed gear from pitch 7 and 9 ... and 3 heads that my partner had placed, (came out fairly easy)"
I have very little granite aid experience so could easily be wrong but I always thought it was bad to clean heads, given that they are likely mashed anyway and placeing a new one can damage the rock.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2007 - 12:24pm PT
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usually you leave the heads in place, since cleaning a welded head would most likely just break the cable and leave a dead head.
.. in this case, my partner had just learned how to place heads a few days ago .. and i pulled them for a few reasons ..
1 - to see how well he placed them
2 - they looked poorly placed and i didn't feel like leaving obvious time bombs for someone else
.. they cleaned very easily .. -- i didn't clean any of the fixed heads that were already there ..
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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May 28, 2007 - 12:54pm PT
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nice job man! looking forward to your trip report, had some beers with my mates the other day, and they were all sorts of psyched to see if i would head out and climb that with them towards the end of the summer.
i'm glad to here its a bit heads up! my gut reaction was to try to talk them into something harder, but it looks like such a classic route that i really want to do it.
lol, with chicagolands 'a' team all on the injured list, the 'b' team feels an obligation to at least go send somtin! hahaha!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 29, 2007 - 05:04pm PT
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congrats on your send ricardo!
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2007 - 11:59am PT
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.. in my opinion.. post cleanup .. there are a few places where you dont want to blow it ..
Pitch 1 - you can deck here now.. (test those heads well -- i had one of the fixed heads pull while testing).
Pitch 7 - of course the tower was always heads up. -- right now it has about 2 or 3 pieces of fixed gear. -- including a fixed pin up high that caught my partners fall from the exit moves.
Pitch 10 - heads up if you do the nipple clean, this is as before though no real change, other than when i did it originally it was fully fixed, and this time it had only 1 fixed nut about 2/3rd of the way through. -- bad ass pitch to do clean. I got about 2/3rds of the way to the nipple through on cam hooks , and backcleaned aliens, and then finally placed a sawed off pin to keep me from swinging into my belayer.
pitch 14 - although its C1 -- bring the right size gear.. doing this wide stuff with only #4's .. (4 of them) .. was in my opinion sporting .. a #5 would have had me far more secure .. the #4's are almost fully expanded in some placements, and you'll have about 20 to 30 foot runouts in between placements if you only bring 4 #4's .. solid C1 crack --- also a part of this flake is going to break soon IMO ..
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
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i equalized the first 2 heads .. and then proceeded to test them hard (not with a bounce test, but with a stomp on one aider).. (since they are so close to the ground) -- the top one fell out --
i'd rather have a head fail under testing -- i feel so much more secure when i've placed the head than on a fixed head.
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alik
Big Wall climber
edmonton
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May 30, 2007 - 11:11pm PT
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Regarding the first pitch.
I was the first person to climb the first pitch after it was cleaned, and at the time there was only one head fixed (the first). after that first head, the thin seam to the next rivet was all deep enough to take solid beaks. Within a couple weeks of the cleanup, these beak placements had all been filled with copper. Seems like they still are... For future parties climbing the route: if you pull one of those fixed heads in a test or fall or whatever, don't replace it, use a beak. Safer for you (and the next guy), and better for the rock. Still a potentially dangerous pitch though in any event, so be careful.
Just my opinion, others' may vary...
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Raafie
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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May 31, 2007 - 01:12am PT
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Hi Ricardo,
When you are talking about pitch 14, and the #4s, do you mean the old style Camalots in the purple color? Thanks.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 31, 2007 - 01:56pm PT
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Zodiac use to go clean all the time...now it's ok to bang as many pins on it just cause it seems like the right thing to do....
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 31, 2007 - 02:14pm PT
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Ricardo, thanks for the report...
Disclaimer: I haven't climbed the route post clean up. The initial "Cleaning" of fixed heads in good condition wasn't a good idea IMO. If you feel it makes a huge difference in the quality of the route if you have to personally place a handful of heads or bring extra big cams for p13. I guess it makes a big difference to you. Without the p13 bolts I would just bring the extra cams -still C1. I can't comment on the removed rivets -unless I know where they were removed from.
I'm sure that most of the route benefited from the cleaning, it had sections full of unusable and unaesthetic fixed gear -broken pins that actually made it harder to climb (I'm remembering in particular, the Black Tower pitch full of broken crap). Most of the other fixed gear that was on the route it wasn't in places where it was difficult to place gear anyway (for instance, the underside of the nipple pitch, before it thins out). There were also chopped bolts that I hooked past pre-cleaning. Were those replaced? It still required plenty of hooking and specialized gear (offsets and lowe balls) for a n00b like me to climb it "clean" in '03.
[Edit]
I'm responding mostly because of the uproar of righteous indignation that so many people were climbing Zodiac that came out mostly in 04' -people said it was only possible because of fixed gear... I just don't know if that is true based on what I've heard. And it irks me because I was determined back then and don't really want to climb it again now. I attribute the surge in interest during that time to the Hubers, Ammon's ascents and Ricardo's ascent, not fixed gear. (I climbed it because I was inspired by Ricardo). Ricardo nailed on it the first time... and nailed on it the second time as well. We had plenty of iron and not a problem to use it if needed back then. My partner almost nailed on the nipple, where it thins out -he fully intended to do so. He was going to place a knife blade and then... dropped it, ended up using a cam hook instead.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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May 31, 2007 - 02:49pm PT
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Thanks Alik, you beat me to it. I've never placed a single head on the Zodiac and other than the corner (pitch 13, I think) where Beyer chopped, it shouldn't need any… not sure because they’ve been there since he placed them. Anyway, I enjoyed the route last year more than ever before.
The duct tape, endless multi colored and sun beaten tat, cheater webbing, bail biners and slings, fixed nuts, pins, heads, rurps with shoelaces attached to them, it was all pretty embarrassing. I will try and find the photo of all the garbage they cleaned up there and post it.
The Zodiac has never seen a clean ascent. It doesn't make since to claim to do it clean but rely on others to do your dirty work by clipping fixed gear. With that rational you could make every hard nailing route "clean".
Oh and, Ricardo… try two #4’s, super sporty!
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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May 31, 2007 - 05:18pm PT
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Sounds like a great deal of work has been put in on it. Great job!
I think cleaning it and restoring it as close to the FA left it is definitely something to strive for. I think some of the comments here are right though in that some people will undoubtedly nail more on the route without so much fixed junk up there.
When we did the RNWF of half dome last year I was amazed at the amount of tat on that route. After a while our motto became "clip n go, don't look just clip n go!" It would be super to have done the route and not run into fixed gear throughout the whole thing like the clip up that we ran across in the zig zags.
Then again when we got on the Nose there was nothing fixed in the stove legs which made my lead on two #3's on the spicy side for me :)
Ammon is right though, fixed gear is nice but it sure isn't "clean", it just seems more sanitized because you didn't hammer in the piece yourself.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 10, 2007 - 02:00pm PT
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From El Cap Report 6/8/07 thread.
Bravo Oli and Chris for some fine English mettle and a hammerless ascent of the newly cleaned Zodiac. A solid committment goes a long way toward a memorable adventure. Good job gents.
Perk up your ears locals and allow a little inspiration to creep in. The Zodiac was once A5 and deserves a little effort and respect while repeating it. Hammerless means hammerless, a very different prospect with respect to adventure than hammer in the bottom of the bag though the impact is the same. I am calling BS on the fixed gear means no meaningful clean ascent ploy. Just another weak rationalization for not trying. Clean means do no damage and leave no trace of your passage. Simple enough.
Sack up wall climbers and stop viewing rock scarring as somebody else's problem. It is everybody's problem and responsibility to preserve and maintain the big wall environment to avoid the ugliness where humanly possible. Honestly do your best first before settling for destructive force.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2007 - 11:07pm PT
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hats off to the lads who completed a hammerless ascent .. it takes some sack to pull that off IMO ..
... but steve .. c'mon .. sometimes its just plain fun to nail something on el cap .. -- i mean you're suffering a bit.. and its just pay back .. :-)
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 10, 2007 - 11:58pm PT
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Zodiac pre cleaned circa 1900's whatever year it was.
We get the call somebody hit the deck at the base of the Zodiac.
Arrive to find some euro on the deck seeing stars and somehow smiling. Both ankles looking not right but out in left field somewhere.
Then he opens his mouth and tries to say he's all right only to see his front teeth missing, and he's still got that goofy look going.
Somebody says go look for his teeth. Down on my hands and knees squinting around I find his teeth and put em in his mouth.
The medics say the good dentist will just put em back in their proper sockets and he'll be biting the forbidden apple again in no time.
Some dumb ass took the hanger off the bolt after the hook moves off the ground and he stood on a fixed time bomb head and paid the price.
Moral of the story like Ammon says "Using fixed gear and saying hammerless is just plain bull'shit"
Sure, .... you can always play the mind games.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 11, 2007 - 01:53am PT
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A clean or hammerless ascent represents a level of accomplishment that does it fact mean something. While I agree that the level of achievement is reduced as the number of actual placements shrinks to nothing, starting up a huge rock wall with no hammers is no small matter or mind game. What is the point of all the thrashing and dangling if not challenge? Clean aid is more challenging than nailing, hammerless climbing more adventurous still. If you have to quibble about cheads then report them too so everything is fair. Hammerless C17. Now the next party has something to strive for, C16 or less!
There is always this silly notion that a party claiming the first clean or hammerless has somehow cheated or bent the rules in doing so. Undertaking hardship and risk to slow the degradation of our shared vertical environment hasn't been an empty learning process for me, but I have been fortunate enough to see pristine stone with all its possibilities intact. All the unnecessary scarring is a sorry legacy and it is a matter of resolve or lack thereof to leave no trace. Each and every climber, each and every placement.
I have said this before and need to repeat it. I will never fault a person's best effort and only seek to encourage it. Difficult aid is all about resolve, confidence and technique just like tricky clean aid so the more challenging, the better, cheads or not. The evolution of hardware provides for a sustainable future aesthetically if we collectively do our best.
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Robb
Social climber
Under a Big Sky
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Jun 11, 2007 - 02:40pm PT
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Not to detract from the present, but way back when, say about Oct. '81, Zodiac was bountiful. Not only was it an awesome route, but we collected at least a dozen pins before we were done. Nice exposure & free pins for the taking!
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 11, 2007 - 06:47pm PT
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Everyone I know who aids strives to climb as clean as possible, but the problem is we are all not equal. Not physically -- what held you on the Black Tower pitch may very well rip for me, being larger and less graceful. Not mentally -- Ammon may be cool with running up P13 with two #4 Camalots and a smile, but I'm brining a #5 or two. Does that mean only those under 180 lbs and balls that account for nearly a 1/3 that weight should be allow to climb Zodiac? Not in my opinion. I'll get my fat ass back on it some time soon with a good assortment of large cams and thin blades. A hammer, too. I hope I don't need the hammer and pins, and I'll do everything I can -- within my ability -- to climb it clean, but I'll nail if I have to.
That's my call. Why? Because it my f*#king climb. And I'll climb for me and in what every style I want to. You climb how you see fit. And, please, let's not make the mistake of thinking that just because you do an ascent without a hammer that you're not having any impact on the route. We all leave our mark. We certainly should strive to leave as little as possible, but you're being intellectualy dishonest with yourself if you think you're better than the next guy just because you didn't nail.
Ed
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 11, 2007 - 09:34pm PT
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This about rock preservation not chest beating. Like I said everybody just needs to honestly do their best, that's it. Once you master aid and know right where the bodyweight line is, a lot becomes possible. Hard won knowledge but moving lightly has always been my goal while improving my technique. Your scene is obviously your business........If you are already striving for low impact why take offense when I advocate that you (and everybody else) resolve to reach inside for the resources to do your best?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2007 - 09:38pm PT
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I agree Steve.
We still just want play with your mind. :-)
Don't worry Steve the whole general conscientious effort of the climbing world is headed that way (rock preservation).
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2007 - 09:42pm PT
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.. fo shu! --
.. when is your next date with zodiac ed? --
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 11, 2007 - 09:47pm PT
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Just rolling my stone.....
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 11, 2007 - 11:51pm PT
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Steve, I'm not really taking offense at all for being a proponent of giving it your best shot with the best ethics possible. It's just that we are NOT all of equal talents and there's a certain elitism that creeps into conversations of those who Monday morning quarterback everyone else's climbing style. I don't advocate that a gumbie with a couple of aid pitches under his/her belt walk up to the base of Zodiac and give it a whirl. But, fact is it happens and I have no right to tell someone they should or shouldn't. I'll bet Ricardo would be the first to admit that he was an inexperienced aid climber the first time he got on Zodiac, but he did it anyways and did it in his own style, and most importantly he has some tremendous experiences that he'll remember the rest of his life. He succeeded despite great odds that he was likely biting off more than he could chew. I'm sure he'd also be the first to tell you that he could have done it in better style with less impact had he waited a few more seasons. I think it's great he went back to do it again this year and I'm sure he has some of the best perspective, not only on what the climb was like pre/post clean up, but what it was like as a big wall n00b vs. a few years later with more experience.
My best effort isn't going to be as low impact as a Huber Bro's fre ascent. Does that mean that now that the line has gone free no one else should climb the route unless they, too, can free it? Nope. Same thing with nailing. Just because you (hypothetical "you"), who weighs 140 lbs and was a world class gymnast in college, can stand on a flared #1 HB offset on the Black Tower pitch doesn't mean that it's going to hold my crippled, fat ass when I get on it. I may need to nail, where as you didn't. Bottom line for me is I'm going to climb as low impact as I can but I couldn't give two shakes if the audience is holding up numbers in the meadow rating the quality of my style on each pitch. I'm going to do what I need to do with the limited physical talents I have. Just because I suck at climbing doesn't mean I shouldn't.
Ricardo -- next year, definitely. I've already started training. I'll be in the Valley in a couple of weeks -- looking forward to seeing some of you.
Ed
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:43am PT
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Steve Grossman 140 pounds and Olympic gymnast. Bawwwhahaha
up2top
Steve is a big dude. I used to be amazed at how he could do all that horrendous hard aid and not blow.
Anyways that's besides the point. He's not telling you how to climb, he's suggesting. It's subtle, and you'll be up there somewhere and you'll remember some of the things he's said just when you're ready to nail a piece and then you just might see a passive way out that works.
If not, no big deal, but he's just trying to get the consciousness moving that direction. It's not elitism, but preservation.
Try not take it so personal.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 12, 2007 - 01:19am PT
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Radical said:
"Lambone you are such a predictable ass hole..."
Yeah I guess.
Lets go back to the statement that I was mocking/being an as#@&%e about.
"I banged 2 sawed offs into the obvious spots just because I had never done that and it seemed like a reasonable thing to do..."
Now, why am I an ass hole for not supporting this attitude towards pounding pins?
Ask anyone where you should learn to place your first pins, and where you should practice your first pins. Will anyone one say a classic trade route on El Cap? There are obvious spots for pins on all sorts of trade routes on El Cap, they are called pin scars. If every one nails in every obvious spot then soon every route is going to look like the Shield.
I'm not saying I am perfect, or an elite clean climber. I've pounded my fair share of pins on routes that have been done clean. But the difference being that I allways tried everything I could to get a clean placement to stick first, and I failed in skill and balls.
It's one thing to place a pin because you have exahusted all other options, or are just plain scared of taking a big fall. It's another thing entirely to place a pin just for the fun of it...which is how I read your initial post.
Good day, have fun.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Jun 12, 2007 - 02:01pm PT
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"Just rolling my stone.....
You nailed it! Clean climbing is YOUR legacy and you love rubbing people’s nose in it… therefore coming off looking like an ass.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 12, 2007 - 03:30pm PT
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yeah Riley I hear ya. My clean ethic pretty much goes out the window when I have something like the Black Tower under me.
I wasn't really picking on you in particular. just in the attitude about Zodiac since the clean up in general.
I guess what i should really do is sac up and try to climb it clean myself.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jun 12, 2007 - 05:17pm PT
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Ammon said: "You nailed it! Clean climbing is YOUR legacy and you love rubbing people’s nose in it… therefore coming off looking like an ass."
Funny, but you don't sound as nice and humble as everyone says you are. Clean climbing is no one person's legacy, it's an ideal we should all strive for. Are you disowning the concept?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 12, 2007 - 05:25pm PT
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Keep up the good fight Steve.
All I hear are rationalizations for selfishness.
Eventually the park service will have little choice but to ban nailing, but between now and then many routes will be destroyed in tiny increments by people who tell themselves that they're not doing "much" harm or that they're excercising a traditional right or that they've earned the right to be a whack merchant because they're displaying such skill.
Gawd what BS!
All they're really doing is saying, "ME. ME. ME."
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Jun 12, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
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too bad we aren't talking about climbing zodiac anymore...
be kind of nice if we could just talk about a wall route and not have it swing around into the same old nailing talk...
oh god.. i feel the pull... the unrelenting sucking going on has caught and pulled me in...
i'm all for clean climbing, but i don't think one clean/hammerless ascent is the birth of a 'clean' route. i don't believe we'll ever see a route become 'clean' at any grade higher than C3 and i think it needs to be fairly straightforward at that.
when i say 'clean' route like that, i mean the kind of route somebody should get their ass kicked for nailing. this would be the kind of route that goes clean with a fairly typical rack. aliens, hb offsets, rps, some ballnutz and camhooks maybe.
i think allot of pitches can go clean with a very well equipped and strong party, and if some dude gets a pitch clean with a dozen #0 brassies topstepping every one sending it at C4 instead of the guidebook A2, thats a pretty killer personal achievement. but really, the next guy that comes along is probably going to use the move conventional tactic and nail a couple of beaks.
lets just hope that someday that nailing makes a placement suitable for a #5 stopper, the pitch gets uprated to C3, the guidebook gets republished and -then- we throw a beatdown on the guy that just wants to play with his shiny new hammer.
i feel clean aid climbing is both a personal achievement and a community requirement, but i think their is not a clear guide between what one man may achieve and when the community needs to get behind it.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jun 12, 2007 - 06:05pm PT
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yeah, I had a little thread drift twitch too, but the lure of the dark side is just too strong.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 12, 2007 - 06:48pm PT
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"My best effort isn't going to be as low impact as a Huber Bro's fre ascent."
I think it would be much lower impact, actually...even if you need to nail at the Black Tower.
It's nice to see you posting again, Ed.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 12, 2007 - 07:46pm PT
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Mike;
1) get Jello's blessing
2) get an illustrator or photographer that can do the job
But even if it becomes more readily available, being exposed to the info is one thing, implementing it while you ARE exposed is quite another.
My experience is that people taller than me are simply not willing to stand tall and make reaches equal to me when an alternative (even at the expense of the rock) is available.
When its OK to bend the rules the pussy factor comes into play.
Tim,
I'm sorry to hear you rationalize behavior that would result in route alteration based on rating.
And as long as people want to believe that C4 is unreasonable then there are less likely to BE C4s.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Jun 12, 2007 - 08:00pm PT
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Yeah, offwhite… that wasn’t very nice.
I’m just annoyed with Steve because of his repeated lectures talking down to everyone about clean climbing. I think he would get his point across much better if he didn’t come across like he was far superior than everyone else. It’s like he’s talking to a bunch of children.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 12, 2007 - 08:16pm PT
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Does the shoe fit?
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Jun 12, 2007 - 08:26pm PT
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Mike,
Definately buy the clean walls DVD. You're get your investment back straight away. It's one of those techniques that is hard to describe so watching the DVD is the way to go.
Until watching the video I use to really struggle with high stepping. I find Teeing off a fair bit easier than using tension. I think a little depends on body size, as I'm 5 7 and it works great for me, but one of my partners that I've been trying to teach it to, who is 6 4 finds it much harder and has pretty given up on it. In most cases its not an issue for him.
Practice on a vertical wall at a gym or home wall first before heading up a wall so you have it dialed. They are lots of little things that are required to make the technique really work well. For me, good wall "stiff" boots are key.
Be great to hear some clean climbing tips...
Cheers
John
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 12, 2007 - 08:32pm PT
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Thanks John.
But I think a few photos or illustrations could do well enough, but like I said, seeing and doing are two different things.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 09:03pm PT
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When I'm climbing up in the aiders I'm seeing and doing at the same time.
A big ass piton I have on my rack ready to beat into crack.
Then I think, these Zodiac police might be watching.
What to do?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 12, 2007 - 09:08pm PT
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Well Werner you said it was a big ASS piton, so you DO know where to place it.
Besides, I hear your topsteps have cobwebs.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Jun 12, 2007 - 09:34pm PT
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Ron, thats not really an indication of what I do, but just kind of the way i think it goes down. if some hardman gets a pitch clean at C4 that previously went nailed at A2, and then the next 5 parties nail it, i'm kinda thinking "yup, i thought that would happen..."
As for what i would do, well I'll see when i get there. Thus far i've never hammered anything thats previously gone clean.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2007 - 10:14pm PT
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.. i have to agree with the previous poster .. most routes around C3 will probably never become clean only routes ..
for example .. the nipple pitch .. i'd rate that pitch C3 or A1 ..
in order to climb it C3 .. in my opinion .. you have to be willing to do the upside down cam hooks .. -- and for a long time .. with a bad landing into a corner if you blow ..
.. now i dont expect everyone to take that risk .. but i think its a bold and proud way to do the pitch .. -- lots of parties have done that pitch without nailing .. and still alot of people unload a series of angles and sawed off's into it .. (for the record i gently placed 1 sawed off towards the end of the traverse, after camhooking for about 25 or 30 feet) ..
.. so that pitch will likely never really be a clean only pitch .. the fall potential will make folks nail on it..
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:17pm PT
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So we can put a big ass piton in it?
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2007 - 10:18pm PT
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werner ..
i think you can put anything you can fit into it ..
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:34pm PT
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"in order to climb it C3 .. in my opinion .. (and i may be wrong) .. you have to be willing to do the upside down cam hooks .. -- and for a long time .. with a bad landing into a corner if you blow .."
"for the record i gently placed 1 sawed off towards the end of the traverse, after camhooking for about 25 or 30 feet) ..
.. so that pitch will likely never really be a clean only pitch .. the fall potential will make folks nail on it.."
Have the bolts leading up to the Nipple been chopped? That would certainly up the fear factor on the traverse.
It wasn't that fixed when I was up there (pre-clean up). The free climbers were doing there thing recently and it was quite ticked-marked. I'd heard about it being a very fixed pitch and wondered if they'd done some clean up to make room for their digits?
There were some fixed micronuts. Probably a pin or two that I've forgotten about, but mostly I had to place it myself, so there couldn't have been anything that would mandate camhooking for 30 feet b/c I didn't use cam hooks or nail...just lots of aliens (some sketchy) and micronuts. I remember getting wacked in the face when I ripped out an alien I was testing and stupidly looked to see how the test was going.
Anyway...I didn't really know how to nail, so I probably would have needed to be really stuck before I decided to try it.
The upper part would be a different experience for me 'now' vs. 'then' b/c it was more fixed.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2007 - 10:36pm PT
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there are bolts and fixed pins that deliver you to the start of the nipple traverse ..
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 12, 2007 - 10:44pm PT
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"Let's hear about tricks we might employ to save the stone."
I have been working on hand placing of sawed-offs more. It's a little scary at first, but a sawed off can usually cam in pretty well, and sometimes work great where a cam hook or tipped cam might be sketchy. Works really well on straight in traversing cracks. You can kinda hammer it with your hand to set it, but it definately doesn't harm the rock like a hammer will. Also makes it easier to back clean them.
The crux for me is overcoming my fear, not the technical difficulty of the placements.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 13, 2007 - 12:29am PT
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Right on Lambone.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 13, 2007 - 08:16am PT
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"where you can see it bite off a bit"
You said a mouthful Riley! Imagine my dismay when I discovered that on sandstone even climbing clean,.....isn't.
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Colt
climber
Midpines
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Jun 13, 2007 - 01:47pm PT
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My partner and I did the Zodiac over 4 days last weekend. There was about a dozen or so fixed pieces on the route (excluding old pins and heads). Pretty lean compard to many routes...but nailing it up isn't the solution. We replaced one missing head on the direct start first pitch and did not nail anything else on the route. We had the pins as we are not super experienced, but did not need them. We found the the climbing pretty challenging for my 4th and my partners 3rd wall, but people shouldn't need to nail this thing up just b/c it had been cleaned-up.
I would like to see less folks nailing on this route too. I will post our rack in the Beta section for those interested in what a couple of medium level guys used. I feel I should add that this route was quite challenging for us and do not under estimate it just b/c it is short. This is not an entry level El Cap Route IMHO.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jun 13, 2007 - 02:01pm PT
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Ya, Colt.
My partner and I climbed Zodiac last fall clean except stick-clipping past the missing copperhead that Colt replaced. It definitely wasn't boring, but doable. Our gear list is in the Beta section. I also made my first placements using hand placed sawedoffs, which in a number of spots felt pretty solid. I did not leave for protection, though.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 13, 2007 - 02:13pm PT
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Congrats to you both.
Claiming that using fixed gear or stick clipping negates a clean ascent is just as weak a sauce as saying the same about nutting pin scars. Its just a rationalization to justify a narrow mind.
You use the route as you find it, and as long as people don't continue to alter it (generally with hammers) people can continue to do so.
Just because its easier the old fashioned way is a selfish reason to threaten the potential for the countless clean climbers who might yet do it.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2007 - 02:16pm PT
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I'd have to agree with you guys .. the zodiac requires minimal or no nailing depending on whats there ..
I hammered 4 times .. and 2 of those placements were for a lack of sack at the moment.. (or just lack of imagination) .. the other 2 were neccesary since i am 5'7" ..
(both were on pitch 8 -- i welded a head so that you could reach the fixed rurp -- and then placed a beak somewhere in there too)..
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 13, 2007 - 02:18pm PT
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Colt and Tomtom- Thanks for posting. You guys definitely get it and did your best. Right on! A challenge well met by some regular folks. No BS, no lame excuses. Honest adventure and committment. Funny what shows up behind all those fixed cowheads and mank once they are cleaned out, usable clean placements. Imagine that.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 13, 2007 - 02:29pm PT
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Ricardo wrote "for example .. the nipple pitch .. i'd rate that pitch C3 or A1 ..
in order to climb it C3 .. in my opinion .. you have to be willing to do the upside down cam hooks .. -- and for a long time .. with a bad landing into a corner if you blow .. "
For the record, the last time I climbed Zodiac the nipple pitch had nothing fixed from the beginning of the traverse to near where it gets wide. I got it clean without using a single cam hook (cause I wanted to leave every piece to make it easy on my second)
Aliens and Offset Brass nuts, Seemed like an ultra clean fall unless you blew out the whole pitch. It was tricky no doubt but I'm not super hard aid man either
I have a lot of respect for going as clean as possible. I haven't nailed on a wall route in a long time.
I have a lot of respect for what the Clean up accomplished but my main reservation seems to have come true, that it would initiate a new round of nailing on a route that was reguarly done clean more often than not.
This is a real issue. When it was being done clean with fixed gear, no additional damage was being done, now it is? How come that's not a problem? If folks were chipping holds on EL Cap because they couldn't make the free moves at 5.13, that would be a problem right? It would be a problem if they were drilling to get around A4 hook moves right?
It would be a problem if folks were gluing holds and chipping pockets to climb. Folks would say "why not leave the route for the day that people with sufficient skill and courage could climb it?"
Same with Zodiac. It's just a fine line. Quit damaging it! If it's going to be a trade route, let's put a fixed piece in the places where folks just "HAVE" to nail and preserve the stone for when the clean gear gets better (as it already has over the years)
If it's not going to be a trade route, go do it clean or wait until you can. Can we get some community consensus on this? It's hypocritical to get all aggro on clipping, bolting, and other rock damage and figure, heck, now that we're aid climbing, anything goes.
The damage on EL Cap Routes from nailing and heading will one day be viewed as a sad loss that was never given due consideration.
Peace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 13, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
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Good on ya, mate.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 13, 2007 - 03:06pm PT
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"For the record, the last time I climbed Zodiac the nipple pitch had nothing fixed from the beginning of the traverse to near where it gets wide. I got it clean without using a single cam hook (cause I wanted to leave every piece to make it easy on my second)"
ditto that.
I soloed it after the Hubers free climb, and they had cleaned pretty much the whole pitch aside from maybe 2 fixed angles. didn't use a single cam hook.
funny anecdote...
In '98 we managed the route clean. yes there was some fixed stuff in key places. One of the cruxes was the Nipple Pitch. We sent my buddy Jason (RIP)up on the pitch. He learned to trad climb earlier that spring and had about 3 months expreince placing cams and nuts. Up to that point he had only led C1.
He charged up the start of the pitch, but about halfway through he came to a halt and started whinning. Then begging and pleading for the pins. We said, "F-U, do it clean or come down!"
He hated us, but sucked it up and pulled it off using Ball-Nuts (we had no cam hooks then). Took him about 4 hours but he made it. Goes to show what a nOOb can pull off with the right encouragement.
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mswan
Big Wall climber
Santa Barbara
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Jun 13, 2007 - 06:39pm PT
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I climbed Zodiac May 10-13 and thought it was one of the funnest routes I've done on El Cap. Cheers to the cleanup crew for making it an exciting climb, again. We fixed the first 4 pitches and had some issues rapping the shortest straw anchors. The topo says rap using 3 50s or 2 60s, but doesn't mention tying the 2 60's together. We ended up rapping about 40m to an anchor off to the climbers left, only to find that the next rap didn't reach the ground. We got back on the first line for a full 70m stretcher to the next anchor, which is the only other anchor we could find between the top of 4 and the ground. There is no way you could reach it with a 60m rope from the top of 4, so make sure to tie them together.
Anyways, we spent two nights on the wall under the nipple and at peanut, both awesome bivies, nailed maybe 10 times total on pitches 7,8,10, and 12. My partner whipped and touched down on the black tower when a cam hook blew. The only thing left on his aiders was the intact loop of webbing meaning the cam hook either broke or the knot pulled throught the hole, but it sounded more like it snapped. Has anyone ever broken a cam hook before? It's not like my partners some fat ass or anything but it definitly made an odd sound. After that he nailed 2x on the pitch, one piece being the large beak that ricardo cleaned. Thanx for cleaning up the slop man,I couldn't get that thing out without jacking the cable since it was nailed flush in a corner. The cruxes of the route were pitches 7, 8, and 10. About halfway up pitch 8 there was some bird beaking and hooking that led to a blind placement out right that was pretty exciting. I was able to do most of the nipple pitch clean and counted about 5-6 cam hooks in a row on the traverse. I nailed once about 20ft up from the titty where the scars get pretty bad. I thought the vertical part up to the belay was tougher than the traverse. It's definitely a long pitch and I can't understand how the f*#k people free climb that sh#t. All in all, every pitch had something to offer and it's one of my most memorable routes. I'll try and post some pics when I get out of this damn office at 5!!!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 13, 2007 - 10:40pm PT
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mswan,
you should post that usefull fixing beta on the route beta page.
fwiw- A head chisel can work well for tapping out a beak that is stuck in a corner.
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mswan
Big Wall climber
Santa Barbara
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Jun 14, 2007 - 01:29am PT
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Lambone, thanks for the tip. I'll also add the rap details to the Zodiac beta page.
I disagree with some of the previous postings about the fall danger on the Nipple pitch. It seemed to be well protected by the bolts leading up to the crack and even though I decided to use six cam hooks in a row, the distance between each placement wasn't that far since it's traversing. I don't think there's a chance of hitting the corner, then again my partner and the portaledge were in the way! There's some really good cam placements and brass nuts if you look around closely on the traverse and nailing definitely isn't mandatory.
Ricardo, your right, you could definitely hit the ground on the first pitch if a head blew, but at the same time, slam testing heads is only going to make even a good head weaker, in my opinion. I think slowly weighting them and bouncing in place is usually good enough to see if it's going to hold your body weight. You'd have to really f*#k up to shock load it, so why shock load test it.
Can someone tell me how to add photos to these messages. Cheers
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 14, 2007 - 01:33am PT
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For you guys who are playing around with pincamming with regular or sawed off angles, a couple of notches in the rails with a carborundum rod saw (~1/8" wide) would allow a copperhead of appropriate size and shape to nest inside the angle.
The single cable in the notch of choice would allow several options with respect to applied load and leverage on the hand placed piton. The cable may also be sized to slip into the deeper crack below the scar if one is present.
A hand set piton stack with favorable leverage has a much better chance of holding.
The shaped copperhead could also add some tapered soft metal contact area to enhance the staying power of the placement.
The concept should be transferable to stiff nailing on overhanging terrain also which is why I originally thought about it. Webbing tie-off loops inevitably creep away from the hinge point and worsen the torque on a driven pin. Go light on the notched angles though since the notches will act like teeth and likely increase wear.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 03:00am PT
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msswan --
.. thanks for the post ..
to me it proves how different folks can experience the same pitches differently ..
.. i thought i was about to meet my maker if i blew it on the nipple .. but that was because i hooked and backcleaned all the way from the start of the traverse (where teh fixed pins stop) -- all the way to the fixed nut (the only fixed piece on that pitch when i did it) .. i did this so my cleaner would have an easier time (just lower out and jug) .. (the fixed nut is about 2/3 of way from the last fixed pin -- to the bolt on the nipple)
then i found the part after the nipple to be very easy .. (i thought it was C1) -- but msswan found that part harder .. so its all very subjective .. he even thought it was neccesary to nail .. while i got through with mostly offset aliens, offset brassies, and a cam hook.
.. at any rate -- i loved the route because i felt like i climbed it in the best style that i could climb it .. (which means 4 hammered placements for my skill/sack ability) ..
.. -- i hope that the same is true for everyone else .. that you had a good time because you did your best.. which is one of the reasons i go up there.. (to be challenged, and to do my best) ..
.. may not be the reason other people climb .. but whatever ..
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:57am PT
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"Claiming that using fixed gear or stick clipping negates a clean ascent is just as weak a sauce as saying the same about nutting pin scars. Its just a rationalization to justify a narrow mind."
The problem is that different parties dont find the route in the same conditions.
Most elcap routes have sections with small fixed heads, this include the easy route Lurking Fear, the heads is going to blow someday and clean climbing without them could be impossible. Should people that dont freeclimb 5.13 not be allowed to do lurking fear then, because it is easy clean aid now?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 09:34am PT
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Ah, but if people didn't hammer on a route that went clean then it WOULDN'T change between ascents.
Oh sure, a critical piece of fixed gear might blow, but once replaced the route is still the same.
My comment was directed at the selfish bastards that use weak rationalizations to justify destructive behavior.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 14, 2007 - 12:14pm PT
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This is the information age and the Zodiac is a case in point. Since the route was cleaned up and maintenance done, its condition is fairly well defined with respect to the number of fixed heads, etc. The situation is not ambiguous. The route has been done hammerless and/or clean by several committed parties. So far folks have been open and forthcoming about nailing where they felt it was necessary. So far no report from Ammon and company to add to the discussion.
Not to sound Lennonesque here but imagine no more placement degradation, can see it if you try. The Nipple pitch has been done clean by a greenhorn so that leaves The Black Tower as the pitch in contention. What is required is a shift away from trade route entitlement to respect for community and legacy.
The Zodiac was as hard as any route on the planet when Charlie Porter opened it up solo. Over time it has become the short, default "casual route" on the SE face. This view has been spread by word of mouth and needs to be reversed that way. Peer pressure and concerned advice plain and simple.
There are plenty of moderate lines on the Captain to learn on and enjoy. The Zodiac needs to be known by its clean rating first and foremost. It seems like C3+ is a fair technical and engagement rating overall. What say you successful clean parties? If you can't handle that grade then respectfully wait until your skills improve before doing the route and yourself a disservice. No climber is entitled to needless, impatient and regrettable destruction. We all have the capacity to write our names anywhere and anytime with a can of spray paint, but none of us are entitled or have the right to behave this way when something of acknowledged value is being desecrated or damaged by the act. Valley stone is too precious to write off to fear or convenience.
It has been said before, "better we raise ourselves than lower the climbs."
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 12:40pm PT
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you know .. i agree with the idea that you should climb in the best style possible ..
.. and i agree that a clean style is better than a hammered style ..
.. but it makes me sick the way you guys go about professing that routes like zodiac are clean only ..
.. i think that at this point i am a decent aid climber, and don't have to wait for my skills to improve to climb zodiac .. -- and i'll tell you there was 2 placements that needed to be nailed .. a head and a beak ..
.. by your description .. i should have waited until i could levitate .. -- bunch of crap ..
.. what is true, is that my head placement (which should hold for at least a few seasons) ... is going to help another party of short folks (5'7") get through that section and claim it can be done clean .. -- placing that beak probably opened up a head placement in the future .. -- so that section will eventually be fixed for the average climber ..
.. bunch of b.s. .. i'd rather see folks saying -- climb in the best style possible -- climb clean .. rather than spewing crap about climbing ability, and waiting until X ...
.. or perhaps what you are professing is .. climb without pitons .. go ahead and use heads .. -- haha .. what a bunch of crap ... --
.. the funny thing is that the folks who come onto this thread and post -- most of them have climbed this route clean .. or nearly clean. -- I've had conversations in the meadow with folks who really nailed the sh#t out of the zodiac -- but they are not on this forum .. so steve should really go on a road show to change folks minds .. (one party i talked to nailed about 30 times .. -- mostly on the nipple) ..
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 14, 2007 - 12:40pm PT
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I got the Black Tower pitch clean when there was zero fixed gear within 50 feet of the tower. I'll admit it was tricky and dangerous but it would only take one or two fixed pieces to make it very reasonable safety wise.
peace
Karl
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
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I wonder what would happen if Chris Mac published the next zodiac topo without any iron in the rack list .. ?? ..
.. steve this would be the first step to getting folks to stop nailing on the zodiac ..
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:18pm PT
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Steve, you seem to have some kind of axe to grind with me but obviously know nothing about me or my climbing ethics, which are very close to yours. Your message is very worthy; your delivery needs a lot of help.
Taken from the American Alpine Journal (2000):
"Cedar Wright and Ammon McNeely then made another quick ascent of the Zodiac in 8:42 in May. This record was especially memorable as it was onsight and hammerless. Their secret was a lot of camhooking – up to 50 feet out from good pro."
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:26pm PT
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But, Steve, the one thing you continue to fail to take into consideration is the inequality of the individuals who rack up to climb it. Even if the route stays imutably the same -- completely unaltered from party to party so we're all dealing with the same variable -- we, as climbers all have different abilities and skill levels. I'm not Ron Olevsky and will never have his talent or experience. Ever! If, for example, someone 6'8" came along and did the FA of Podigal Sun, using the same top stepping technique that Ron uses to drill angles up the first pitch the route wouldn't be climbable by anyone other than giants.
Take that same disparity to any route -- even if we're all using the same technique we're never all going to find the same placements on any given pitch. My reach or technique may have me making 40 placments on a pitch, while Ricardo's has him only needing to make 35. We're all going to find ourselves in a different situation from the leader who went before us. Hell, I've done that first pitch of Zodiac 4x now! And each time it was different for me. In part due to addition/subtraction of fixed gear, but also due to using different gear in different ways. And for the record, the only nailing I've ever done in my four pathetic attempts on Zodiac was a head placement at the end of the bolts just off the deck on the first pitch in the post-cleanup era.
My other contention about our individual differences is weight. Now, I'm not about to get in the aiders any time soon 'cause, well, let's just say I've gained a few lbs., but my normal fight'n weight is around 200 lbs, plus another 25-30 lbs of gear. I can't defy the laws of physics! What holds YOU may not hold ME. That's not to say I'm going to take the easy route and not try my absolute damn best to climb as clean as possible, but if my choice on P7, or P8, or anywhere else is between nailing or bailing -- I'm probably going to nail. If the difference between a bail and a send is a couple of pins, I'm going to hammer the pins and not loose a wink of sleep.
Lest you think I'm talking about nailing out of convenience or lack of committment to climbing clean, here's a quick story:
On my second attempt at Zodiac I headed up the first pitch thinking all the fixed gear from the year before would still be there, including a fixed LA at the roof that gets you over to the anchor. I led the pitch uneventfully until I got to the spot where the seam hits the roof and you're one move away from the bolts. It would have been a clip and go with the LA there, but there was no longer any fixed gear in the roof at all. No problem -- I still had one cam hook on the rack (left one as pro way below) so I clipped it to a daisy chain and reached up to place it inverted in the roof. As I gave it a test yank it ripped, the biner slapped against the wall, and the cam hook dropped to the deck. Oops. I spent the next two hours trying every piece of gear I had left on my rack to try to find a combo that would get me one move over to the freakin anchors. I actually contemplated dyno-ing for it. I was able to get two lobes of the second smallest WC Zero to stick but it wouldn't hold my whole body weight. I blew it and fell (swung, really) three or four times. I went back to trying to hook a crusty, crumbling edge, but it just kept breaking off. I finally got one foot in an aider on the hook and was able to distribute some of my weight onto it while I slowly weighted the crappy 2-lobe Zero, and made a swing for the anchor bolt. The whole thing blew as I clipped the bolt.
2 hours to move five feet, all in the name of climbing clean. If I can make it work, I will. Sometimes, it just ain't in the cards. The thing is, I'll bet you (Steve) have a few climbs in your past where you had to nail where others didn't. I'm sure you wouldn't call it "selfish" -- you'd call it necessary, just like most of us would.
Ed
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:30pm PT
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".. bunch of b.s. .. i'd rather see folks saying -- climb in the best style possible -- climb clean .. rather than spewing crap about climbing ability, and waiting until X ...
.. or perhaps what you are professing is .. climb without pitons .. go ahead and use heads .. -- haha .. what a bunch of crap ..."
nice rant ricardo! ya know I don't really care if some people have to pound a pin or two for their saftey or whatever. I did Zod clean (with partners) and also nailed on it when soloing.
I guess what bothers me is that since it was "cleaned" a lot of people think that it has all kinds of mandetory nailing on it now. I have friends and have talked to climbers who want to do Zodiac just because it's a realatively easy route they "can" pound pins on.
Otherwise I agree with your attitude, climb as clean as you can and respect the rock. I just try to keep in mind that it has been done clean so I should try really hard to make it go. Some people aren't willing to invest the time and energy, and fear to climb it clean.
Some people are on the other extreme and if they can't do it clean they bail. I thank that is a pretty noble style...I can't say I'm that commited to it to force a rappel from halfway up El Cap.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:51pm PT
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I don't think anyone on this thread wants to go up and nail the crap out of Zodiac.
I do however think that there are many posters who are thick headed (and as a result narrow minded) when it comes to the issue of "fudging".
"I'll try, but if I get freaked its whacking time"
Its this attitude of entitlement that will prove to be the downfall of such routes. Mark my words this can't go on forever. When a route like Zodiac gets blown out to the point that people are getting repeatedly hurt because of blown placements then there are going to be some changes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:55pm PT
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Yeah, thats it Mike, I'm stonewalling so that I can reel in the profits and have another villa in the Rivierra.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Jun 14, 2007 - 04:15pm PT
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i'm gunna go up on zodiac and nail down all the beer i can fit in the haul bags.
its my godamn vacation and i'll do as i please!
thats the only nailing i'm really plannin on.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jun 14, 2007 - 04:43pm PT
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Mike-
I haven't looked at this thread until Ron brought my attention to it via private e-mail. I've only looked at the last few of your posts, and in them at least, you're coming across as a bit of an a33hole. The fact of the matter is that a couple of months ago, the producer of Clean Walls and I worked out an agreement where all the profits, small as they are, go to Ogden Climbing Parks, a 501(c)3 non-profit that is working to preserve and improve climbing access in northern Utah. Allready we've had some success in that regard and we're poised for more.
Why don't you make a little contribution to OCP (go to my website: www.jefflowe.info and click on Ogden Climbing Parks). Just donate what you can, don't stress over the amount - $20, $10 - whatever. In the meantime e-mail me your address and I'll be happy to send a DVD, whether or not you make a donation; that's up to you and your concience.
By the way, we haven't quite earned back our investment in Clean Walls, yet, let alone reaped big profits. Everyone involved participated out of a love of climbing and a desire to promote ideas of preservation. All profits from the sales of any of my other videos are likewise being contributed to OCP.
-RespectfullyJello
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jun 14, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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mswan,
My partner and I went through the same process when rapping down from the top of 4.
McTopo does say "two 60m or three 50m ropes to ground on Shortest Straw anchors", which is accurate.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 05:35pm PT
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.. thanks for the post lambone .. i'm glad that we see eye-to-eye on this .. you got exactly what i was trying to say .. climb as clean as possible ..
.. i agree with you -- the zod is not a route that needs alot of pins .. (sometimes .. none --- sometimes a few)
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mswan
Big Wall climber
Santa Barbara
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:39pm PT
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tomtom,
I guess it could be more clearly worded as "two 60m ropes tied together or 3 50m ropes on the the shortest straw anchors." Whatever, just a little extra work to fix the problem if you make the mistake. It's just always a buzz kill when you've had a great day of climbing and made good time, only to be late for you date with King Cobra (the beer not the boulder) because your pissed off searching for anchors and dicking with ropes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 09:07pm PT
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Talk about cheap bastards. Riley wouldn't even give me a beer for me to sign it!
Just kidding my man.
Thanks.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jun 15, 2007 - 03:21am PT
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Cool, Mike. We never meant to bury the techniques within a commercial vehicle. Ron's done a lot to support climbing, as I'm sure you have. Sorry about the epithet!
DVD will go out on Monday, you can use the info as you see fit (as if you needed my permission!) - I'm totally jamming tomorrow.
-BestJelloToYou
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:21am PT
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"Oh sure, a critical piece of fixed gear might blow, but once replaced the route is still the same."
One party take a fall and rip a couple of copperheads and bail. The next party climb to the same place and have no idea if that section was supposed to be fixed or not. How do you know what is supposed to be fixed? Topos could do this and might even to some extent do it now though.
The same can be said about features on the wall.
The wall change.
"My comment was directed at the selfish bastards that use weak rationalizations to justify destructive behavior."
Yes, but it could be hard to see if the nailing was justified, changed route or not.
Clean climbing is very good and people should try achive it but it is hard to make any rules when clean climbing depends on fragile fixed gear or features. Ricardo needed to place a copperhead, the next parties dont because it is already fixed. Did the next party do a better send compared to Ricardo?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 15, 2007 - 11:50am PT
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Ammon- I called you out on Cosmic Trauma for one simple reason. You were cheating at your own game, making it up as you go. The route had been done without pounding at the same level of difficulty. You were well aware of that but chose to drive a piton rather than take the time to work out the clean alternative. The only driver was "efficiency" which directly translates to time off your posted record. You set an unfortunate precedent by opting for expedience over impact based on self interest.
The problem arises when the next party does CT clean but ends up with a time that is, say, five minutes slower than yours. Which number stands and why in this little speed scheme of yours? I posed several questions for you to clarify with respect to your goals and style while climbing "efficiently." You chose to not respond beyond some weak attack on my free climbing ability that got you nowhere. No response is my beef with you, Ammon.
Back to the Zodiac. Since you have done the route without hammering at least twice presumably, what is the current clean rating with the route in cleaned up condition? The first ST came out in 2000, same year as your on sight, hammerless ascent was recorded so the old C3F grade should cover the former state. Your skepticism about Chris and Oli claiming a hammerless ascent recently is rather curious if you already did so yourself. Just who was it exactly that claimed a hammerless ascent only to find one in the bottom of the haulsack anyway? Care to elaborate?
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 15, 2007 - 01:37pm PT
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ammon never claimed a clean ascent of CT. If someone does CT hammerless then that is a different standard entirely, regardless of their finish time. If they did it hammerless 5 minutes slower than Ammon's ascent then they still have the fastest hammerless ascent. Where's the confusion? Again, to me, this is just silly hair splitting BS. You seem to want to make this some sort of competition so at the end of the season we can all look at stats and times and records and decide who's better than who. Maybe there are people who play that game but its lost on me. I don't want to speak for Ammon, but he's generally stoked for you to be doing your thing -- whatever it may be -- and for him to be doing his, and keeps the judgemental stuff out of it.
Ed
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 02:27pm PT
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This CT thing has been run into the ground but in principle Steve is right, but it was a mild hypocrisy.
As for phule's point; it sounds like a weak rationalization.
If climbers had a little more sense of community then finding out that certain critical gear was missing and needed replacing wouldn't be hard.
But when everybody carries a hammer the abuse is directly proportional to the pussy factor and the need becomes a vicious cycle..
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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"If climbers had a little more sense of community then finding out that certain critical gear was missing and needed replacing wouldn't be hard."
How? There are methods that might work but you can start with proposing one.
What if the heads blow when you or some one in front of you climb the route? It could be dangerous to bail from a route and not fun to do if it not even are your fault.
I think it is very bad advice to say that people should climb routes that needs fixed junk to be climbed clean with out a hammer. It could be dangerous.
Steve, which routes have you climbed without the hammer?
I agree with your ideas in large but I think you exagerate some things that make it impossible inpractice.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
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First, please reread my last sentence.
thanx
As for a mechanism to keep climbers informed as to the current status of the route; well jeez let me think,...
,...could it be that you're already looking at it? lol
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 15, 2007 - 05:19pm PT
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I have read your last sentence. A lot of parties bring a hammer without using it. I have.
Edit: I disagree with the pussy factor. I think it should be considered bad to nail on pitches that has got clean without fixed gear in the same way as bolting is considered bad. There is going to be problem though if an A2 route suddenly became C5 after Ammon climb it but it seems like for example the nipple pitch could be considered a clean pitch where nailing isn't an opinion. That you shouldn't climb zodiac if you dont want to climb C3+
end of edit.
Sorry, but information on an internet forum is not the most practical way if you already are in the valley or are there a lot of internet cafe's in the valley now? The camp 4 board would be better i think.
I still see the problem if you or a party just in front of you blow a piece or if the information was lacking.
It is not fun if you ruin your vacation because you had to bail from the grove pitch because of a blown rurp instead of climbing the triple cracks and summit elcap. Maybe not a big deal if you live in the valley but could be a pretty big deal if you use a lot of money and time to go to the US an a vacation from europe.
It is possibly to come up with "rules" for clean climbing but I disagree with yours and steves "rules". The best could possibly be to bolt sections that requires fixed time bombs.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:12pm PT
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Thats already what I do on all the routes I put up.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2007 - 06:13pm PT
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I think that this is a case where folks like Ron and Steve .. are not going to understand where some folks are coming from .. -- just like i can't understand their point of view ..
.. thankfully we dont have to really see eye to eye .. -- and i'm pretty happy with how i see big wall climbing .. -- Climb in the best style as possible --
.. i actually get a huge kick out of doing that .. (like i said.. i hooked quite a ways out on the nipple and got a good kick out of it) ..
.. and i also have no qualms about making my butt safe when i think i have to .. -- a great example is the infamous rivet i added to PO .. although i felt a huge sense to disappointment when i did it .. (as in i failed to reach a goal) -- i felt, and to this day, i feel no remorse .. -- in the moment, there was no other option .. --- hindsight being 20/20, i do wish that i knew then, what i know now about getting through that section. ... but 17+ pitches up el cap, and 9 days into a solo, i wasn't about to rap to the ground because of 1 move...
.. its fun to talk about it -- but i dont think we're going to really understand each other .. and i'll keep on climbing el cap .. i dont think i'm going to leave the hammer on the ground any time soon .. (i will at least need it to get the nuts out!) ..
.. (we did leave the bolt kit at home though) ..
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:24pm PT
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There's just something about the word "pussy" that makes me wanna hurl.
Maybe if you're worried about the dammage done by pussies such as myself that truly lack sack as well as the dammage done by guys, you'll find a different way to refer to climbers that you think gave bad ethics and lack courage.
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TwistedCrank
climber
a luxury Malibu rehabilitation treatment facility
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:41pm PT
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Gawd. I used to respect some of you. All sacks and pussies aside, now I feel like I'm in big wall Montessori school.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:47pm PT
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Just a colloquial expression based on stereotypes but I'll try to refrain from being sexist (something I'm not often accused of).
Ricardo,
actually I DO know where you are coming from and, although it was a long time ago, I was pretty good at hard nailing. If you would care for a sample try soloing Archangel which although pinned out and substantially easier should give you an idea.
Others now go clean so I won't recommend them, but that only underlines the point that Charlie used to make that we've got plenty of room to expand the difficulty of clean aid climbing IF we can exercise the restraint.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 15, 2007 - 07:23pm PT
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"Thats already what I do on all the routes I put up. "
And often get criticized for doing so. Some would insist you should hook the edges up the blank face at the start of Prodigal Sun to get to the start of the crack some 40 ft off the deck. Be a real man and make it C5, DFU, they say. I think the way Ron did it is much more practical, but there are people who support "clean" climbing to such an extreme that they sincerely believe blowing out hooks would be the lesser of two evils.
But yet bolts and rivets were chopped from the first pitch of Zodiac where people repeatedly now have to paste copperheads to get to the beginning of the seam. It's reported that those pods where heads are pasted will take a hand placed beak instead of a head, but I don't know because there were heads pasted every two or three feet when I did it after the clean up. All in all, I'm definitely NOT knocking the clean up effort, but this spot in particular looks like one place where the rivets should have been left. Charlie didn't place beaks in that section -- I'll bet he placed heads. And since we all agree that heads are time bombs that subsequent cleaning and pasting will unavoidably and indisputedly lead to more rock damage, why not leave a more sustainable piece of gear in spots like those?
My point is -- there's "clean" for the sake of rock preservation, and then there "clean" for the boosting of your own ego.
Ed
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 07:34pm PT
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And you already know where my priorities are on that score.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 15, 2007 - 07:46pm PT
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Yes, I do. But I do disagree with your premiss that having a hammer means you'll use it, and if you have it you'll only use it because of a lack of courage or creativity. Sometimes you'll use the hammer because it was the best choice at the moment -- courage, or lack there of, aside.
Ed
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 07:59pm PT
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I know what you're saying Ed, but theory and practise are often quite different.
The essense of the problem is the cumulative nature of the abuse, not the responsible maintainance. When EVERYONE becomes the self-appointed judge of what a given route requires there is no accountability and the route pays the price until the climbers of the future are left with nothing but memories.
It really makes me laugh when I hear people say of Zodiac that if it is A2 or C4 (or C3+ or whatever) that it is unfair to ask people to run the greater risk of going clean.
Wasn't it originally an A5 done solo?
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2007 - 03:21am PT
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ed ..
... i just did the first pitch .. its fixed enuf right now to not need any new placements ..
i dont remember how i got up to the crack .. but i did not place any new heads .. (i think i hooked a bit to get up to the crack) .. after one of the heads blew ...
... its a DFU area ... which in my opinion is OK .. its what makes the route worth climbing .. (pitches like that) -- you could break something.. but you wont die .. and with the right fixed gear (or knowledge on how to place heads) -- you should be ok ..
.. i strongly disagree that the added rivets should be placed back on P1 -- it would diminish the route.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jun 16, 2007 - 05:15am PT
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Since I am once again insomniacing out I thought I might chime in with my perspective. I'm not some super heavy, as some who post here can authentically claim, but I have been climbing for fourty years, over which time I have formed some solid opinions. Yeah, I know, opinions are like elbows, everybody has at least a couple. So here's a couple from me.
When I started climbing all the climbers I knew were solidly in the environmental movement. Style wasn't some arbitrary thing dependent on the situation, it was everything. And guess what? It still is. Just getting to the top? Doesn't mean sh#t. How you did it is the whole point of a life in climbing. I've never really idolized anyone except my mom and dad, so I'm not some hero worship kinda guy. But I know what guys like Grossman or Bridwell or Jim Erickson or Roger Briggs, etc... have done over the years, and the style they and others of their ilk is to me what climbing is all about. Why? Because they took great risks. The greater the risk, the greater the achievment. If you just want to get to the top, Fred Beckey style, hey, its your choice. I personally want to feel like I really accomplished something when I go climbing. No less of a luminary than Ernest Hemmingway said once that there were only three real sports, auto racing, bullfighting, and mountain climbing. He understood the risk ethic, why dont more actual climbers get it?
We have gone from the risk / reward ethic to one of entitlement. An earlier poster made the point of saying something along the lines of what about MY vacation? MY money spent? We went from caring about the earth to only caring about ouselves, and thats just wrong. I have never been so self assured that I felt like the cliffs and mountains were mine to use up. The biggest, best climb imaginable? When no one can tell you were there. Impossible to achieve? Maybe, but that shouldn't keep you from striving for that goal each time you leave the ground. I have been up on plenty of things that I simply wasn't good enough or brave enough to get up, so I went down.
As Jstan observed the sheer numbers of climbers mean we cannot go on as we are, something has to give. Will it continue to be the earth? All for the sake of someones tick list? Think beyond my friends.
Who am I, nobody. Is everyone here a better climber than I am? Absolutely! Is there a more opinionated FMF'er out there than me? Absolutely not! So take this for what it's worth, and thats absolutely nothing. Ha!
Michael
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 16, 2007 - 05:51am PT
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" the lines of what about MY vacation? MY money spent?"
I did but I didn't think it was selfish in any way. There are a lot of fixed timebombs on elcap. It is IMPOSSIBLY to climb past some of them if they blow without using a hammer. It makes no sense whatsover for me to have to bail because of a fixed timebomb blow when the only possibility to climb the route again is for another party to go up there with a hammer and do some nailing.
It is just a lottery and it could also be a dangerous lottery.
We could start to say that nailing is not allowed but that would result in very few elcaps route possibly to climb in a couple of years.
Climbing etics is a mess. Some people are allowed to chisel and drill hooks and are considered as having very good etics. Some people are considered to rape the rock if they place a pin.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 16, 2007 - 09:50am PT
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"I did but I don't think it was selfish in any way."
"It is just a lottery and it could also be a dangerous lottery."
raymond phule, you funny! You veddy veddy funny.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 16, 2007 - 01:09pm PT
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The beauty of climbing is that weighty freedom. Clean, hammerless and leave no trace are worthy ideals. Some climbers meet those ideals and are able to expand our collective sense of possibility in grand adventure as Michael so eloquently pointed out.
Don't think for a second that my ability just showed up one day. Hard won skills as I've said earlier. The only difference all along has been that I have been willing to truely exhaust all options before tapping and work with what the rock provides to get by. I love bodyweight placements and don't need much for a hook or #00 RP. If you really look, the stone usually provides a way. If your focus is on a single blown out spot, it is too easy to ignore other options. Add a good dose of fear to complicate your judgment and the hammer comes out. We have all been there while learning our craft.
As a case in point, Charlie Porter was one hell of a good nailer, arguably the best. Copperheads were around when he soloed the Zodiac but were viewed as mashies, a substitute for actual nailing ability. Those guys could see where mashies were going to take aid climbing and took a personal stand by relegating copperheads to a last resort. I doubt that Charlie carried any on the Zodiac FA in 1972. Only Steve Sutton or Hugh Burton would be able to clarify that tidbit. Committment to work it out and push through the difficulty at A5 alone is totally inspiring.
When I came to climb the Tangerine Trip as my first El Cap route in 1976, I was filled with inspiration to prove myself. Despite the relatively primitive nuts available, I lead most of the route and pounded 12-15 pins in all. Right away I was forced to rectify the actual climbing with my expectations and the pin list. The take home message was that fear and anxiety on the ground are powerful factors in determining the way that a climber frames or defines a goal or challenge. If you decide to fold while sitting in camp, then that's what will come to pass. Without compelling history and tradition to bolster one's resolve and sense of potential, fear and need for security are generally going to erode will and judgment leading to the well worn and mighty ugly path of least resistance.
So please cut the elitist BS and allow some inspiration to creep in, aspiring wall climbers. You will never know what lies within until pressed to summon it. But having said that, we all gain from pushing our limits as we each know them and savor the accomplishment that big walls can provide. I am simply trying to give folks a shove toward the deeper game as Charlie Porter did to me by setting such a high standard on the Zodiac. Take it or leave it.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 16, 2007 - 01:25pm PT
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SG-I have long been a follower of the clean way esp. since reading your chapter in "Big Walls". I thanked Robbins for popping in that little rivet on the crux of Muir, without it a clean ascent would not have been possible. It would be hypocrisy for me not to cop to throwing in a few pins when we did Zodiac in a push circa '93...situational 'ethics' are "just that"...
What strikes me is the anger at 'bols on bolders' and then no one sez a thing about "hammer in"...on the "TeMplE" of all places.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 16, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
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"raymond phule, you funny! You veddy veddy funny."
Why, because I am right? It is a lottery if the fixed mank is in place or will hold me. This is obvious or do you belive a number one copperhead is going to last forever?
Steve, what routes on elcap have you done without bringing on hammer?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 16, 2007 - 06:42pm PT
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I don't think copperheads are fair game to begin with.
"my vacation, ny money spent" isn't selfish?
C'mon RP there is going to be SOME risk to aid climbing. I don't like mank, but if everyone uses its existence as an excuse to go strapped then its gonna be bang bang!
Voila; blown placement.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 16, 2007 - 07:15pm PT
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Raymond- The Muir Wall on the 25th anniversary is the only hammerless ascent that I've taken on. It was the first clean ascent and a real adventure right to the end.
I also did the Salathe and Nose hammerless which was routine at the time.
If a route has been done hammerless, I would follow suit unless some maintenance work or cleanup required one.
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wayne w
Trad climber
the nw
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Jun 16, 2007 - 09:45pm PT
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Ron wrote;
Wasn't Zodiac originally A5?
There are two big blocks that fell off the route some time ago. This also had something to do with it becoming easier than when Charlie did the FA solo.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 16, 2007 - 09:55pm PT
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My recollection is four A5 sections originally with two on one pitch. The departure of a couple clearly expanding features is a really cool bit of history. Anybody take the ride along with either chunk or did they leave on their own?
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john hansen
climber
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Jun 16, 2007 - 11:28pm PT
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Where Robbin's placed that rivet on Muir Wall,, How did Yvon and TM get past that spot without one? And when they pulled that bolt did they replace it or is it still there?
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clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Jun 17, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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any pics
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 17, 2007 - 11:45am PT
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John-FA led it without the bolt. Robbins had to drill. It's all laid out in one of those valley history books...i think "Vertical World of..." I don't know what you're talking about (pulled/replaced?). That POS was there 10 years ago, just rusting away...RR's Swan Song?
My partner blew our clean ascent of Mescalito, the chiwonchit...sometimes that's how it goes. I still didn't hammer, my secret weapon (a custom bent cam hook) was killing it up there....the scariest part for me was the Bismarck anyhoo (#5 tipped max, mandatory free).
It seems rare to see an El Cap rack flushed out with all the clean toys (ballz/sliderz/duckbills +++). SG, do those modified Spectres work very well?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 17, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
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John- RR placed the bolt after taking a long fall while soloing the second ascent of the Muir. The fall was stopped by a RURP and I think that RR didn't like the proepects of another roll of the dice. Steve Roper's book Camp Four details the incident and is a must read anyway.
One shouldn't assume that because of his outspoken leadership role historically that his nailing skills were second to none. YC was full of praise for TM's efforts on the Muir, describing him as "never hesitating, never doubting his ability" while nailing A4 looseness. RR just wasn't in the same zone after a spell in the air or simply couldn't work it out. Only RR knows for sure.
426- Funny how large pin lists persisted long after routes had gone clean. The 82 Meyers guide still had a ten pin list for the Salathe and ten for the Nose! I travel with a pile of wires, hooks and gizmos myself. RP's and lots of micro wires are crucial to working around blown placements. I am a big ring angle claw fan and don't really need any more big hooks than that. Wide Leeper Logan hooks that have been narrowed by grinding to provide at least three intermediate widths are also very useful for unadulterated, natural hooking. Nice to find something to do with those spectre hooks though since holding falls on ice hasn't quite worked out.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 17, 2007 - 01:04pm PT
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"Unadulterated, natural hooking" huh? Is that even legal?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 17, 2007 - 02:47pm PT
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Only out on the wild frontier.........
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 04:52am PT
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"I don't think copperheads are fair game to begin with."
But there are a lot of them fixed on elcap. What are you going to do with them?
""my vacation, ny money spent" isn't selfish?"
I dont consider my scenario selfish.
"C'mon RP there is going to be SOME risk to aid climbing. I don't like mank, but if everyone uses its existence as an excuse to go strapped then its gonna be bang bang!
Voila; blown placement."
You doesn't seem to understand my point.
1. There exist routes on elcap that can only be climbed clean by using fixed gear, often copperheads. This is probably true for all routes except for the Nose and the Salathe and some freevariation.
2. Fixed gear is not going to hold forever.
3. The conclusion from 1 and 2 is that the fixed gear is going to blow someday and need to be replaced by using an hammer.
This should be obvious.
You propose an ethical system that says that you shouldn't even bring an hammer on these routes.
The result of this is that at same time is a party going to climb the route and encountered a blown piece, a piece that blow under testing or a fall. Their only possibility is to retreat and say to the next party should bring an hammer. My main safety concern was that it could be dangerous to retreat from high up on an Elcap route. My vacation comments was also due to this inconvience because it is just a lottery if you are the party that encountered the route in bad shape.
An other safety concern is that the fixed placements get worse over time. The fixed head could be safe above the ledge fall for the party on the first ascent and maybe even after 10 ascents but it is not going to be safe sameday (safe in the meaning bodyweight placement). The hammerless climber dont really have the opportunity to test the placement properly because he has to retreat if the piece blown during testing. To downclimb a sketchy hook sequence is probably not fun either.
Note that all these doesn't depend on a climbers skill or balls in any important way. It is just luck.
All this should be obvious and one reason why a no hammer ethical system is bad for routes that requires fixed pieces to be climbed clean and that it is not going to work out in practice.
To bring a hammer an a fixed route is simply to be prepared.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 07:43am PT
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A "one hammer" ascent might be a good middle ground. If you use the hammer, you leave what you hammered in the rock...and don't use heads in pin placements because they are cheaper.
Give's an extra incentive not to nail. saves weight, and prevents more nailing in the same spot on trade routes.
Just food for thought
peace
karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 18, 2007 - 08:28am PT
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I like Karl's idea and have on occasion used it.
Phule doesn't seem to have a high level of reading comprehension. Copperheads are NOT fair game. Fixed A5 is A1 until it blows. Its just russian roulette, no skill. If a placement can't be used clean then fix something that can be relied on over time.
On sandstone that is only one thing, though on hard rock more options are possible.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 08:52am PT
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"Phule doesn't seem to have a high level of reading comprehension."
Thanks.
"Copperheads are NOT fair game. Fixed A5 is A1 until it blows. Its just russian roulette, no skill."
Kind of agree but there are atleast some skill to test the placements. I think this was my point actually. I used lottery instead of roulette though.
"If a placement can't be used clean then fix something that can be relied on over time."
Thats a possibility. It doesn't seem to be the most popular opinion though because that would most of the time result in drilling.
Have many fixed copperheads exist on elcap? A couple of thousands?
So what ethical rules on yosemite do you actually propose? ( I have climbed in yos but not on sandstone and I belive most people here think about yos in this discussion)
Rivet or bolt all fixed mank sections?
Climp routes with fixed mank without bringing hammers?
Leave every hammered placement?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 18, 2007 - 08:56am PT
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Phase out the heads. They are not a viable long term tactic.
Then phase out the hammers.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 09:26am PT
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Ok, I understand such a stance and it could definitely be the best thing to do.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 10:52am PT
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Raymond- to be clear, I am advocating clean climbing first, for reasons of rock preservation, and hammerless climbing second, for reasons of adventure and style. Clean means no mechanical impact force is used for any placement to gain passage. Fixed gear of any sort is fair game as long as you don't pound IMO.
Obviously, this game changes as the quality and quantity of fixed gear varies.
Ideally, no fixed placements other than drilled ones should be employed to be as clean as can be. The early clean ascent of NW face of Half Dome by Rowell, Henneck and Robinson was accomplished using no fixed pitons and set the standard for clean as can be. I'll coin the word SPOTLESS for this level of clean climbing. Their's was a clean and spotless ascent.
Most of these distinctions are of historical importance only when a first clean or first spotless ascent is being claimed. Having done the Muir Wall clean and hammerless still allows for the first spotless ascent by another party. I have never done the Zodiac, for instance, but I would shoot for a spotless ascent since the route has already been done routinely without hammering. The complication lies with the fixed gear (particularly copperheads) blocking otherwise usable clean placements on that route. While it would be nice to follow right behind a cleanup crew, the reality would be that a hammer would likely be necessary to clean out the mank to allow passage on unhammered gear placements. Whether this sort of tactic can actually result in a clean ascent is clearly controversial but of little historical consequence unless a first is being claimed. Theoretically, you would need to repeat the pitch or overall ascent to claim a first under these circumstances which gets a little convoluted to be sure.
As long as impact remains the primary concern, there are lots of strategies to deal with a single blown placement. A simple piece of coathanger wire weighs nothing but may allow you passage without pounding in a pinch. I do not advocate for cheater sticks as a conventional tool by suggesting this emergency approach. No cheater sticks should be employed in any claimed first clean or spotless ascent as a matter of fair play.
The argument for having the second carry a hammer to aid in cleaning with less individual placement damage is pretty solid, especially in softer stone. Karl's middle way should really become the norm on most clean walls IMO. It takes the hammer temptation out of the leader's decision making, if that is needed, but still allows for placement maintenance.
Try first, tap last (or not at all) is the ethic that I have been trying to instill. Simple in concept, harder to pull off under duress. Therein lies the real struggle and drama, as we all know.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 11:18am PT
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shit ..
.. i just can't stay away ..
.. there is no way that fixed placements should only be things that wont blow (ie: bolts) .. that would make routes like pacific ocean way boring! ..
.. i've clipped my fair share of heads, and have yet to have one blow while i was one it .. because i test them pretty well ..
fixed gear like copperheads are time bombs .. therefore you should test the sh#t out of them before you go on them .. if they blow -- replace it.
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Colt
climber
Midpines
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:19pm PT
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I too like the one hammer idea that Karl proposed.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
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yeah, but it also means an increased number of fixed (or not so fixed) pins on route...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 10:45pm PT
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That's the trade-off, you can have increasing damage on trade routes or fixed gear in the extra dicey spots. What's your call?
The fact of having to give up a valuable piece in order to nail will probably keep from from just saying "the route's cleaned up now, it's hammer time"
The leader carrys the hammer, no back-cleaning, if they remove a fixed pin placed by a previous party, they have to pass by using clean gear.
Peace
karl
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2007 - 01:52am PT
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riley ..
.. umm .. i dont think that my stomping (i dont jump on the pieces) generates 1200 lbs of force ..
probably more like 600 lbs of force .. but i have no idea .. i've never measured it ..
.. i certainly dont do a light test on fixed heads .. i'd rather have them blow under test, and place my own, than have it blow when i'm on it ..
.. this of course should be prefixed with "It denpends on the situation" .. -- because i've also gone onto fixed heads without testing .. most of the time when coming off of super scary gear ..
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 19, 2007 - 04:23am PT
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".. there is no way that fixed placements should only be things that wont blow (ie: bolts) .. that would make routes like pacific ocean way boring! .."
Yes, probably. It just doesn't seem to exist good rules that everybody could agree on and different rules could apply on different routes.
I belive that it would be good to place rivets or bolts on the fixed sections on the "easier" routes. For exampe the prow and lurking fear. They where very easy to do clean in the conditions I found them but they still has a couple of sections with fixed heads. Bolts or rivets at those sections would do nothing about the character of those routes. (I did them 10 years ago and dont know the conditions of the routes now...)
Edit: tried to find a topo of the prow on the net but only found some trip reports. I got the impression that people climb another route than I did... Remember bolt ladders and straigtforward clean aid but not a lot of fixed heads or hooking.
end edit:
What about zodiac? Is it still a lot of sections that uses fixed mank? Would rivets at those places change the route?
Karl's method could work pretty good especially if later parties remove completely unecessary pieces.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 19, 2007 - 05:01am PT
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The best aid climber in the Valley in that golden era of the late '60s was my friend Tom Frost, then probably Kor, then Royal and Pratt (probably equal), then right close behind all the other good men, Yvon, TM, and you wouldn't believe this but I could aid well too. I wasn't just a free climber. I remember when Jimmy Dunn said something to the effect that the NA Wall wasn't as hard as Canary Pass (a little route Kor and I did in Eldorado, when I was 14). People had told me the West Face of Sentinel was A5, and I thought it was about A3 when I took my student up it who had been climbing 3 months. We did it in half the time of each of the previous parties. I gotta get off the subject of myself.
About Royal's bolt on the Muir. He talked with me a lot about that when I was at his home for an extended stay while writing his bio. One has to realize that it is infinitely easier to do a pitch while being belayed by a partner the normal way. Royal's solo method was primitive compared to methods used now. His best protection was sliding up a prusik knot and doing things that were a bit strange. He had been on the wall 9 or so days and, I think, was feeling it. He's never made excuses, but when Yvon and TM did it they were pumped with adrenaline, pushing out into a new frontier, and under those circumstances sometimes you really excel yourself. There was a strange psychology working against Royal at that moment. No really safe belay system, compared to having a partner. As Steve has eloquently said, one fall was enough at that point, but there was something more I'm not sure I can adequately express at this hour of the night. I think the soloing apparatus, the mechanism he was using to belay himself, was clearly a bit dangerous, and Royal simply decided not to die right there. With a normal belayer, I doubt he would have hesitated or needed a bolt. Royal isn't perfect, he is the first to admit. On his second ascent of the Nose, for example, he got up above the lousy Harding bolts above Texas Flake and "in shameless cowardice" (as he puts it) placed a good bolt below Boot. Of course when Roper and Kor and Denny made the third ascent they could not resist chopping that bolt, taking any opportunity to somewhat mitigate the sense of Royal's superiority.
As for the Zodiac, it amazes me how many people on this thread have climbed that wall. Somewhere near the end of the 1960s I began to learn how to do those routes without actually doing them. I know that must sound strange, and it will provoke a lot of criticism of me probably, but let's just say I felt my spirit go up into many of those places, quietly. I have always had a sense of the value of leaving certain climbs undone. Many first ascents around Boulder could have been made but weren't. I saw and knew I could do them, were there a couple bolts... But there was no way to place a bolt on lead, ground up, so I left those climbs undone. Then another generation came along, rappelling down from the top, and drilling bolts to create all sorts of routes. Some of those people assumed we had never conceived of doing such routes. Those rocks started to look like my daughter's sequened dress, sparkling with bolts. How beautiful not to climb certain routes you so desire to climb, until you are truly ready to be the measure of that climb. Every time I've done a route and lowered my standard or style to just get up, I've felt ultimately disappointed. Forgive me if I seem nuts. I'm tired. It's late. I probably am nuts.
I will share one last thought. I actually invented the bashie. My father headed the University of Colorado physical plant, and he had all sorts of workers under him. I approached him one day and asked if he could have someone in the machine-shop department cut some metal to the size of about half the current size RURP, and drill a hole in it for a sling, and sharpen one end. He came back with a bucket full of these new, hyper modern rurps. I was eager to use them and went up on a new route in Eldorado (age 15 maybe). I aided up and got to a tiny seam. I set the newfangled dinky rurp and, with one hit of the hammer, discovered the metal was too soft. It instantly was crushed into a bashie right there and then, but I clipped into it and used it. Later, on another climb, I used six in a row, and when I got to the top of that section my partner flicked the rope accidentally and all of them fell out.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 24, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
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Bump
Clean accounts are always welcome here.
Mucci
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