Walleye
climber
The Land of the Big Stone
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May 25, 2007 - 08:08pm PT
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Well if you pushed your horn melodiously instead of melidioulsy they might not flip you off or rip the door off your car
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2007 - 08:18pm PT
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Hi Kevin,
I make a distinction between popularizing something and versus breaking an old mold and showing the benefits of a new way of doing something, even if no one follows you. Ray, in my opinion, could never have popularized hang-dogging because he never had the stature in the Valley. As you say, he was ridiculed for his style but the climbs were very hard and certainly Ron and John did not quibble with that.
But Ray was the first serious climber to embrace hang-dogging, get impressive results, and could not have cared less what the rest of us thought. I wasn't around when Ron started hang-dogging, but I can certainly believe that if Ron started doing it, everyone would have forgotten about how ridiculous Ray had seemed and started hanging with Ron.
Best, Roger
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 25, 2007 - 08:40pm PT
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As to bringing hangdogging to the Valley or CA...what about Max and Mark.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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May 25, 2007 - 08:44pm PT
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Werner, there isn't any logic to reporting the facts. How one wishes to interpret the facts is their own business, I suppose. Don't shoot the messenger, though. I just tell it like I knew it to be. It doesn't require too much reasoning. I probably could have left off the "theft" idea, though. Who cares? I just think people should keep promises, as Ray's to Greg, but then I'm sure I haven't always kept all of my own, so onward and better luck next time. It's a zoo, and we're all in it.
Kevin, wow, so good to hear your "voice" again. Tom Ruwitch and I put up Rain in the spring of 1967, specifically during the worst rainstorm of the spring. We had searched far and wide for a good cagoule, for climbing in the Valley, a cagoule that wouldn't leak and would stay warm in a downpour. The weather report was rain, and it came in torrents, so out we went to test the cagoules. I had seen that line, and we climbed it. On that blank headwall up above I placed a 1/4-inch bolt, and I was afraid even to hang on it, but it was not only raining but the torrential river down the Bastille was directly on top of me. It was the same as climbing up through a waterfall. After climbing the West Face of Sentinel and El Cap and some other things, I gave that cagoule to a coatless hobo when I rode the freight trains home. Anyway years later I saw you up there leading Rain. Such a different climb without water! I never play with anyone. I was telling you honestly to beware of that bolt and try to back it up, but you were in such strong control I realized I didn't have to worry. You really sailed up that beautifully, a real talent. The times I did the route free I always found nice little nut placements in obscure places.
Pat
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2007 - 08:49pm PT
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Pat the poor logic part was not meant towards you but to the poster "itso" in this thread with his post above yours.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 25, 2007 - 09:07pm PT
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Coltrane played his horn and I loved it. I like to think I understand it a little more every time I hear it, but that could be a conceit.
I've come a long way in hangdogging, but the first time I watched Todd S do it circa '78 was nothing like the first time I heard 'Favorite Things!' dogging is more like pullups.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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May 25, 2007 - 09:15pm PT
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Oli's statement of the development of spring-loade cams is true, although Greg applied for the patent in 1972, and it was granted in '73, not '75.
But to the point of Ray's character:
I was there in '71 or '72 at my brother Mike's house in Gunnison, CO. Mike, Ray and I were Outward Bound instructors and therefore had something in common. Greg was over from Utah to work with Mike on the camming concept, which he'd been developing since 1967. Jardine had been invited to a spaghetti dinner, and Greg offerred to show him the current state of development of his new protection device for climbing, but first Ray had to sign a non-disclosure/non-compete agreement.
Ray was a quick engineering study and soon grasped the essentials of the constant-angle cam and spring-load concept. It was all-in-all a very convivial and exciting sharing among friends. This is why, several years later, when word began to leak out about Ray's secret devices, Greg sent the first of a string of registered letters to Jardine, seeking to come to some sort of agreement over his breach of faith. All the letters were refused, so it was that, finally, after Friends came out on the market and Mark Vallance began producing them under license from Ray, that Greg finally filed suit. To make a long story a little shorter, Mark, who is a stand-up guy, but had not been told the whole story by Ray, finally agreed to pay Greg a settlement for the use of the camming concept. Who needs an enema when you've got a friend like Ray?
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2007 - 10:15pm PT
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Jello
WOW !!!!!!
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My Name Is Drew
Big Wall climber
Dogtown, LosAngeles, CA.
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May 25, 2007 - 10:31pm PT
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.....what are those, headphones?
Ohhhhh, SIDEBURNS.
heh.
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My Name Is Drew
Big Wall climber
Dogtown, LosAngeles, CA.
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May 25, 2007 - 10:35pm PT
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Jaybro....
agreed. If I am able to nail down a time signature, melody, etc it just aint Jazz man.
...."smooth jazz". sanitized for your personal safety jazz more like (bronx cheer).
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The Warbler
climber
the edge of America
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May 25, 2007 - 10:35pm PT
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Yeah Werner -
Don't have a clue who Meyers' Guide says led the 1 1/4 inch direct crack on Ramblin Rose. know I didn't, I know Chappy didn't, I heard you did... in fact I think I suggested you were da man for da job.
I found an easier way to get to the top of that nasty thing, liebacking and faceclimbing to the left, and then moving right to a sporty mantle maneuver (no doggin). I remember trying the crack and thinking it was too hard, and real parallel sided for hexes, but definitely the classic line. Great rock up there, by the way.
So what up dawg? whatcha tryin ta say?
Oh and Jello Fellow, how are you? hope all's well and your kind and optimistic spirit prevails overall. Your version of the Friend story is totally credible to me. One need only look at all the other brilliant Lowe designs that have advanced climbing, and other outdoor activities, to believe you.
And Werner - I definitely don't think doggin's a sin, a compromise, yes, a sin, no.
As for Coltrane, probably my favorite thing is Naima. It's also probably his least technical piece...pure soul.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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May 26, 2007 - 12:35am PT
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That was a nice typo, Jeff, "who needs an enema when you have a friend like Ray..."
Sorry, Werner. I thought "itso" meant, "What you say being so...nevertheless"
I am not above saying something I need correcting on, but I usually get the essence or somewhere near...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 26, 2007 - 02:04am PT
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Greg Lowe patented the "constant angle cam" in 1972/1973 [edit: applied for in 1973, granted in 1975; see eKat's post below], and we saw the "L.A.S. Cam Nut" in 1973 (I bought one and still have it).
.jpg)
The Needle Sports Cam Story
http://www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/camsstory.htm
says Greg's patent also mentioned having 2 opposed cams, but we never saw a product from L.A.S. which used this.
It seems to me that Ray wanted a better camming device. He knew the constant angle cam was good, but the L.A.S. cam nut was not stable. So he came up with the stable configuration of 2 opposed pairs of cams staggered on an axle with one side set wide and the other side set narrow. (At least I think this was Ray's innovation; if not then perhaps someone could correct me). Plus as Pat mentioned, Ray included the retraction system (trigger bar plus cables).
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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May 26, 2007 - 06:55am PT
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But wasn't it Greg who first came up with the idea of opposing cams?
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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May 26, 2007 - 08:08am PT
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A true visionary, one of the best to grace the rocks.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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May 26, 2007 - 10:44am PT
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Though I'm too young to weigh in on some of this, I did have a couple of comments.
- I like the wording of the above: "Hangdoggin's not a sin, more of a compromise." That sums it up for me.
- I love Pat's saying: "It's all a zoo, and we're in it!" Classic.
- Though from what some posters are saying, Ray's ethics weren't top-notch, he definitely made an indelible contribution to the sport. And his lightweight backpacking ideas ARE top notch. I use many of his techniques for both backpacking trips and climbing expeditions. His ideas to move away from the over-engineered packs and boots, etc., have made it possible for me to backpack with my dad - hundreds of miles that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. Eccentric, but brilliant in his own way, at least in that arena.
I really enjoy hearing from all you guys on these old stories - that history and climbing tales are the reason I visit this forum time and time again. Thanks to Kevin, Jstan, Pat, Werner, Bachar, and ALL the older, more experienced climbers that post here despite the vitriol.
Sincerely,
Aaron Kutzer
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 26, 2007 - 12:16pm PT
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Jello- you were there. Was a prototype present in the room after the disclosure form was signed that had a rigid stem and multi lobed transverse axle? It was several years between Ray's first working prototypes and the finished design that he sold to Wild Country. I am unsure where that final design had a patent connected to it, pre or post sale. I am not taking sides on this only seeking some clarity in motivation at the time. Did Greg ever consider direct competition to produce a parallel product or did the lawsuit settlement lay that all to rest?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2007 - 12:28pm PT
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I spend a ton of time and money on patents, so I am interested in reading them. Does anyone have a citation or number for Greg's granted patent and any that Ray might have been granted?
I would also say that patents and patent law don't really touch on the issues that Jeff laid out. There is a huge gap between what seems right to most people and what patents can actually protect.
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Blinny
Trad climber
TheHolyMont
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May 26, 2007 - 12:46pm PT
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Here ya go, Buzz!
http://www.google.com/patents?id=BwM2AAAAEBAJ&dq=%22Jardine%22
eKat
P.S. Spent a lot of time in the patent clearing house library when we did the patent on the Silent Partner. . . DANG. . . where was GOOGLE then, I ask ya?
P.P.S. It totally cracked us up that Jardine's official address on the patent is/was General Delivery, Yosemite, CA!
HILARIOUS!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 26, 2007 - 01:58pm PT
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This thread is a testament to the potential of this medium for history and community. I'm proud to "know" ya'll.
Ray is a unique guy in making transformative innovations in two separate activities (maybe more) His virtues and vices stem from the qualities that we often see from those who are willing to think and act "Outside the Box."
Now, to think and act "Outside the Box" you have go outside the culture and norms of the times. That can lead you on paths of darkness and light. Sometimes the jury is out for years on the results, and the fruits can be mixed. (Sport Climbing?)
It would be nice if the folks crazy enough to do something differently were wise enough to do so ethically and with perfect foresight, but alas, It doesn't often happen.
Yeah, Ray chiseled the Nose and that sucked. Our forefathers killed the Indians and stole their land. In both cases find ourselves using the spoils of other's sins. What to say?
There is an element of 'intent' that points more judgement at Ray for spoiling future possibilities, but the use of destructive pins and heads has seriously degraded most El Cap routes for future generations, and yet made free climbing possible on them. Wouldn't it be sweet if the Shield headwall had been left until cleaner gear made it possible without the results we see now? That's probably too much to ask.
We don't know what history, nor other climbers will do in following in our footsteps. Even something as pure as Bachar's publicized solos might have inspired numerous wannabes into dying unroped at the crags. It didn't happen though.
So Ray remains for me, a vivid human being with strengths and visions to admire, weaknesses to avoid, and who made progess and mistakes. Kind of like us all but with the amplification of energy and execution.
Peace
Karl
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